Sixth SessionThursday, January 19, 1922.
GENERAL SAWYER: In arranging the program of this afternoon, we wish you to consider it as open for discussion for bringing to the attention of the Conference any subject which you may have in mind.
We have divided the work in this way. In order that we might have some leading thought from which to start and upon which to base our discussions, I would remind you that in the n.p, and tubercular case, the Government has its greatest liability.
I would remind you also that particularly in the n.p. case the medical man has his greatest responsibility.
We have learned by comparison month by month since taking over this work that the general medical case has already become a quite rapidly decreasing case in numbers. We find, however, that the mental case and the tubercular subject are both increasing in number. We realize that in the general medical case ultimately we must get to a place where we shall have finished largely with that character of case.
But with the n.p. case we know that so long as we have a remnant of the World War Army in existence, we have these neuro-psychiatric cases under our observation.
I would like to charge you, while I have this opportunity, with this particular responsibility on your part, and I would like to tell you how I think you can do greater justice to the soldier and how you can certainly help your Government best in considering this subject.
For myself, after a very close personal contact of ten years in the specialty of treating mental and nervous diseases, I am satisfied that in 99% of all of these cases,—perhaps that is a little strong,—I should say in 90 per cent of these cases you will find, where the case is genuine, that you have some physical cause at the bottom of the mental trouble.
Therefore I wish to suggest that in the consideration of this case, that you never allow one of them to pass you excepting you give him the most careful examination; that you go over him in the most thorough way; that you look into his case, so far as his history is concerned, taking into consideration the decade in which he is living; go over it with every laboratory refinement of diagnostic assistance that you can possibly give and see if you cannot find somewhere some physical trouble that is behind the mental symptoms.
For myself, I am convinced that there is no case, excepting those that have gone on to the degenerate class of diseases, which usually appear after fifty, but has some physical derangement the overcoming of which may help very materially in the curing of the case.
So I would like to emphasize this thought: that you have not exhausted the service that you can render, you have not relieved yourselves of the responsibility, you have not acted as loyal doctors of modern times should have acted, excepting that you take the greatest care in the preliminary examination of these patients.
And then I would like to emphasize also that your preliminary examination, by comparison with frequently recurring examinations, so long as they are under your observation, will help you very materially.
I wish you to know that I am impressed with this idea. This is what I believe:
That many of these cases that come to you will be better off outside of institutions than in them, and I want you all, all of you, to help us to try and correct this impression that is now existing, that the Government does not give this class of cases proper attention.
If the Government is not giving them proper attention, it is not because of their disposition to do so, but it is because they have not had time enough to develop resources by which they can handle these cases well.
I would feel that I have not performed my function here as a doctor if I did not say to you to be thus careful in your diagnosis and then help to work out a plan whereby, if this subject cannot be made well, he can at least be made more self-dependent. Use all of your influence to help to cite where these men can find niches into which they can go and make it possible through the influence you can bring to bear upon the people who are associated and connected with them that they are better when they really are established in their homes. There is no case in the world that is more unfairly treated than the neuro-psychiatric case. We all know that by many experiences and observations. So let us give particular and special attention to this subject.
They say to us we have no specialists in this line. I am not so sure but we are better off for that. This is what I do believe: that every man who has broad experience of a general practice of medicine is competent and capable of quickly developing himself to conduct these cases along carefully.
You have no greater field, men, either for yourselves, for the patient, or for your Government, than in this field.
Now as to the tubercular case. The error we find in the matter of the tubercular case is this: We find a great many cases are diagnosed tubercular when really they are not,—a very bad impression, as you can imagine, to give to any subject. So let us be very sure, let us leave no influence, or power, or activity unused that will help us to define the exact attitude of these cases.
We know, as was related here yesterday, that many of the so-called cases of shell shock are really due to other causes. This is my own observation of those cases, we had a number immediately after the war, at the Institution with which I am connected, and we found a most invariably these men were the subject of the toxemias of fatigue, and by relieving the toxemic conditions, whether it be uremic infection, or what not, these cases soon got well and their mental symptoms soon subsided. So be sure that you be perfectly fair with these men, and you are never fair with them until you have exhausted every resource in discovering whether or not, as the basis of their mental or nervous disturbance, there may not be some physical condition.
The meeting is now in charge of Dr. White.
DR. WHITE: I hope there will be free discussion of this matter. There are a good many men who have had charge of neuro-psychiatric hospitals, and I hope you will feel free to get up and briefly set forth such vital problems as you may have in mind. In order that we may cover as many problems as possible, I will, with your permission, let you know when the five minutes is up, so we can cover the ground as fully as possible.
DR. KOLB: In relation to the examinations made of these neuro-psychiatric cases which were sent to us, I want to outline the procedure we use at Waukesha in arriving at correct diagnosis and methods of treatment. The patient is given to one special doctor. This doctor is supposed to make the first preliminary examination, which included a complete physical, neurological and psychiatric examination, and do all the work in connection with these patients while in hospital. In making this examination we have on our staff a number of very competent attending specialists in order that we can obviate the mistake General Sawyer has mentioned of assuming that these men are simply neurotics and passing over important physical conditions. By this method we have caught a number of cases which have been passed over as cases of neurasthenia. For instance, I have in mind a case diagnosed neurasthenia which was treated six months ago, which was a case of brain tumor.
After we have made the first preliminary examination the man is carefully observed in hospital, not only by his own officer but by the clinical director, and notes are made from time to time. Examinations are also made by the dentist, x-ray examinations and various laboratory examinations, including serological and base metabolism. In the end, after all the data is assembled and written up, he is brought to the staff and there his case is thoroughly discussed by all the members of the staff; a diagnosis is arrived at, methods of treatment discussed and afterwards put into effect.
Now as to the organic conditions with which our neurotics suffer. It is true a large proportion of them do have organic disorders in connection with their neuroses. We find that most of them do have functional disorders originating purely in their mind, or because of some constitutional nervous defect and that the real fundamental condition from which they are suffering is not an organic condition but is nervous or mental and must be approached along lines of psycho-therapy.
Now I will not go into the subject of psycho-therapy. We pay special attention to mental questions but we do not neglect the physical by any means. Every physical disorder which is found is corrected, if correction is possible. We have complete physio-therapy and occupational therapy and all other facilities for treating nervous cases. We are careful never to stress too much on the physical treatment we give these patients, because by so doing we suggest to them conditions they really do not have and by that means prolong their functional disorders.
Regarding occupational therapy. We all know that this is a very important method of treatment. It should always, as Colonel Evans said, be directed treatment and should not be given in a hap-hazard way. All of our occupational therapy treatment has been given a definite prescription. For eighteen months we have had a bright young medical officer interested in this subject, whom we have made reconstruction officer and who observes the effect of treatment and changes the prescriptions of the other physicians when he finds the treatment given does not have the desired effect.
With reference to reconstruction aides, every week our reconstruction officer gives them a talk on some phase either of occupational therapy or physio-therapy or of mental disorders. We cover any subject in which the neuro-psychiatrist should be interested. This officer has devised a system of observation which the aides are supposed to make on patients and which they do make on each patient who takes occupational therapy and which is looked over by our reconstruction officer and the officer in special charge of the case. We are getting up data and statistics which we think will be of interest to the general profession when it is finally published,
DR. TREADWAY: I think that the Public Health Service has had a very grave and serious problem affecting the N.P. Veterans of the World War. We have included in that term, besides the mental and nervous cases, the neuro-surgical cases as well.
There are a number of problems which still confront us, and one of these is the question of personnel. I am sorry that Dr. Kolb did not say something about the training school he had started in connection with his hospital. We sent some young officers over to learn technique and methods of handling the psycho-neurotics. We have also sent some officers to the Public Health Service clinic at the Psychopathic Institute in Boston and we hope that some of our other hospitals will start a similar school. The question of personnel is an exceedingly grave one. A great many young men want to become surgeons.
They are not interested in mental or nervous cases. They want to go into general medicine. Last year we sent two officers to the Southern University and to the Northern and Western universities to meet the graduating classes and the internes, and from that we have been recruiting some younger men who are manifesting considerable interest. We hope to get additional personnel by interesting the young graduate.
Another problem is the question of creating, in connection with General hospitals, wards where patients of this sort may receive at the beginning of their treatment, their preliminary examination, where they may be evacuated home with compensation or without compensation, or evacuated to a prolonged treatment hospital for further care.
It has sometimes been difficult to get enough men, trained personnel, to man these wards.
We have believed all along that the proper method of treating the pyscho-neurotic, so-called, is in out-patient clinic and we have attempted to develop out-patient clinics with the old dispensaries maintained by the Public Health Service; but the question of personnel again entered into it, and we were unable to develop as many out-patients clinics as we should like. We think, however, that the mild, mental case, as General Sawyer has said, is far better off in the outside world than he is in an institution. If such cases go to a hospital, it tends to have their symptoms crystallized and they believe they are sicker than they really are. In other words, they seek out some minor physical disability as a peg on which to hang what they think is a grave disorder.
The question of compensation for these cases is an important one which must be worked out. The man who believes he is seriously ill when he has but a minor defect, if he has compensation and has a weak will, will not make a strenuous effort to get back on his feet. The question of maximum compensation for these cases many times interferes with rehabilitation.
We believe that this is a new method of handling mental patients and it may serve as a copy to other States to prevent this enormous building program which every State has had to go through and which has not met the needs of the insane.
Compensation for epileptics and their examination is a very important question and has been a serious problem to us.
We find among neuroses not infrequently mild convulsions. We don’t know a great deal about these convulsions; some are epileptic and some are not. The true epileptic, however, has great difficulty in making a go in the outside world. The number of convulsions per month is not an indication of his disability, entirely, because the passage of the Employees Compensation Act in the several States, has interfered with the employment of men with an epileptic past.
It is as hard for the man who has a seizure once a month to get a position as the one with four, so the question of treating epileptics is one largely of social service and compensation.
The hospitalization of epileptics has not been a success in the hands of the Public Health Service. One of the Western States that built a large colony for epileptics some years ago has now turned it into an institution for feeble-minded.
The question of vocational training is also a big problem in connection with this type of disability. A man, for example, whom I saw a few weeks ago, had been a jewelry polisher in Boston. Before the war he had to get up every morning early and go to his work. He gave most of his earnings to his family. He was suddenly taken out of that situation by the draft and put into a situation where it was simple for him. All he had to do was to get up and move around when some one told him to. He was furnished with his clothing; he was furnished with his food. When he got over on the other side he painted a rosy picture about how things were at home. When he got back home it was not like what he imagined it was. He had to get up and go back to his old job. It was hard for him to make the effort. He quit his job. He goes to the Vocational people (he had a seventh-grade education). He wants to become a civil-engineer. Obviously he cannot. He tries another occupation, etc. Now the attempt of that man to better his condition is a laudable one, but very often that desire to get away from a difficult situation is a part of his mental disorder. He must be made to understand and meet that problem frankly and not be seeking round-about paths without very much continuity of purpose. Vocational training in connection with epileptics has not been very successful. Dr. Ellison who has had charge of a hospital for epileptics can give us some valuable information on the problems of the epileptics.
I think that Dr. Wilbur, who has had charge of a large station at Chicago, can give us some valuable information about preliminary examinations, the social service aspect of these cases, the need of social service and the handling of the psychoneurotic in out-patient clinics. Dr. Wilbur and Dr. Chronquest can tell us about the problem affecting the insane. Mr. Chairman, I suggest that you call on them.
Dr. ELLISON: I want to say the program as outlined in the afternoon session is one of vital interest to me, because I have been in charge of one of the most problematic Government Institutions in the country, that is, an epileptic hospital in East Norfolk. The administrative program in hospital of this kind, taking into consideration the application of general orders, hospital regulations and internal regulations as within the hospital, is entirely differentfrom any other class of hospital under Federal control.
The very fact that you attempt to apply certain regulations in a hospital of this kind where the morale is naturally at a low ebb, due to the mental phases under which these men are suffering, sometimes results in disaster and the breaking down of the morale you have in the hospital.
I would like to go on record in stating it is my belief that voluntary hospitalization of the epileptic is anything but desirable.
From the standpoint of rehabilitation of the epileptic, I must take into consideration the particular type of epileptic we have in the hospital. As Dr. Treadway stated, the majority of these man have not reached probably the school grade of seven years. There has been an attempt on the part of the rehabilitation department to make lawyers, doctors, diplomats out of these epileptics. It is absurd and cannot be done. These men are social and economic lepers, so far as their rehabilitation is concerned. The communities do not want them. Their families do not want them and the responsibility for their care rests upon the Government. Then what is to be the solution of the disposition of these men? I can see but probably two solutions to the question. Voluntary hospitalisation is out of the question. I believe that that part of the Bureau concerned with the compensation of these men, from an economical standpoint, must take into consideration the question of the grouping of these epileptics. There is a class which can live at home. There is another class, not definitely formidable, which does need custodial care. Then there is the psychiatric epileptic who needs psychopathic institutional care. In arriving at the disposition of these men you must take into consideration those three groups.
Then there is another group, there is a mixed group of epileptics. In many instances we have noted, after a long period of observation, that a man may react to some situation, starting out in a hysterical seizure and wind up in a definite epileptic attack. That has been true in quite a number of cases and I should like to urge upon the Bureau District officers and those concerned, this one thing:
In referring cases to East Norfolk, I think a very careful examination should be made of these men to determine as nearly as possible that they are epileptics.
At East Norfolk there is a situation existing which I have endeavored to correct; that is hospitalizing psycho-neurotics,—neuropsychiatry cases which are not definitely epileptic, which are made worse by contact with the epileptic patient. These men are being made worse every day. Some of them simulate very closely the epileptic; many have learned to bite their tongues as the epileptic does. They should not be hospitalized; about 25% of the cases are not epileptic.I think that should be taken into consideration and a careful survey made of these patients before they are transferred to East Norfolk.
As to these cases, very much the same program is carried out as Dr. Kolb’s. Complete preliminary physical and neurological examinations are made and patients are placed under observation of one man, who observes them and makes notes from time to time. As for the treatment of these men, there is little to be done in a way. I think it resolves itself into occupation mostly. I think the occupational measure as applied to the epileptic is the only solution. I think they should be kept busy every moment, for many reasons. They are naturally fault finding and if they have something to do it will lessen the time they have to think of these things. It will promote interest in their surroundings. It will lessen the liability of deterioration but as the thing now stands that cannot be done, under the present method of hospitalization. The solution covering that is, I believe, for the Government to formulate, properly taking into consideration these districts, and build an epileptic colony, under proper supervision, and I believe from an economic standpoint, it could be made almost self-supporting.
In regard to the medical treatment, we have been instituting at East Norfolk a very careful treatment,—careful observation—to determine the real value of luminol in the treatment of epilepsy and we have found that it has been beneficial in many ways; that it lessens the severity of the shock, prolongs the intervals between shocks and in many instances effects complete cessation; the patient becomes more alert, more active, more interested in his surroundings. This treatment must be continued day after day. If there is a cessation, or lack of it, or a failure or inability on our part to obtain luminol, these men immediately react to the lack of it. I should say we have had at least four deaths at East Norfolk due absolutely to the lack of luminol.
DR. WILBUR: At Chicago we developed a diagnostic clinic at the Marine Hospital and had two departments: in-patient and out-patient departments. We had a capacity for in-patients of about 150. The out-patient department was unlimited and developed to approximately 160 to 175 patients at one time. The in-patient department is divided into five groups for the investigation of cases;
1. Cases which would be immediately transferred to some other hospital as soon as arrangements could be made;
2. Certain disorders taken up under direction of an officer particularly interested in such disorders and investigated as fully as possible;
3. Hyper-thyroidism, following operations, where the pulse is still high. When such cases were sent to us, an attempt was made to stabilize the patient and bring him down to a nearly normal basis so that he could go out and take Federal Board training.
4. Psycho-neurotics.
5. Epileptic and hysterical cases.
I might say that out of every fifteen cases sent in with diagnosis of epilepsy, about twelve or thirteen of them proved, after careful observation for a period of from two to three months, to be hysterical. That was about our ratio on cases sent in.
Our procedure was much like Dr. Kolb’s at Waukesha. The man was given complete physical, neurological, examination first. We had a special consultant who visited the hospital about once a week. After a man had his examination, he was checked as needing further examination in eye, ear, nose and throat, or x-ray,—whatever was indicated in the case, and that was tabulated on the chart and checked against his examination. At the end of that time each ward surgeon prepared a summary of the case and a decision was made as to whether the patient needed a short term of treatment in our own hospital,—we had there occupational therapy and other methods of treatment,—and then be discharged and sent back to his home.
In connection with the in-patient hospital work, we had a committee at the district supervisor’s office made up of one representative at the Bureau of War Risk Insurance, one from the Federal Board, the neuro-psychiatric contact officer and one representative from the Public Health Service. We tried to place the men in some definite schedule,—the Federal Board, if possible, after he was discharged from the hospital, and we would bring our problem cases to this meeting, where they would be taken up and such arrangements made for their further treatment as necessary. The contact man visited the station once or twice a week to familiarize himself with the problems of each man.
The out-patient department was naturally on a different schedule; that is, certain hours of the day were set aside and definite offices assigned to the out-patient department; they kept track of their own patients, who reported in at intervals of two or three times a week, every two or three weeks, according to the needs of the case. If the man needed some special treatment, he came into the hospital for that treatment and at the same time he saw this ward surgeon and talked the case over with him. Just as soon as that patient was ready for vocational training, he was put into touch with our contact officer and a schedule was made out for him.
In regard to the vocational training for epileptics, a great many cases during the year I was at Chicago, came up to that board for consideration. We tried the epileptic at various occupations; kept him away from machinery so as no injury would come to him, and we succeeded in rehabilitating only two epileptics out of the whole group. These two were given positions in factories that were owned or governed by some relative or friend who had taken an interest in then, disregarding the compensation laws and disregarding the inability of the men to work when they would have a seizure. In two instances only have we succeeded in putting men into training where it proved a success.
DR. MCLAKE: I represent the National Sanitorium in Marion, Indiana. Presume all of you have heard more or less about it. It was organized about a year ago; opened on the first of January as a sanitorium. During the past year we have cared for about 1500 patients. The present Census is 800.
Now this institution was opened under a provision that it was to be used for the hospitalization of reasonably curable cases. In other words, it was not to be an asylum. It was not a place for merely domiciliary residence or custodial care. The needs of hospitalization, however, this year, have been such that we have taken all sorts of cases. As this has been a matter of discussion for many hospitals and in many districts, I want to take half a minute to show you that during the past year and at the present time, I am hospitalizing at Marion nearly every variety of n.p. case which we have.
Up to the present time we have had no special accommodation whatsoever for n.p.-t.b. patients. Our institution is built on the cottage plan and in the preliminary survey and construction no provision was mode for t.b. patients. However, at the present time I have one ward which is filled with eleven of these cases. I may say in this connection that we are expecting to build a t.b.-n.p. unit of eighty beds and will start construction in about five or six months, which will be gratifying to you men who have these combined cases and would like to unload them and as soon as we can take these cases off your hands we will be glad to do so.
In that connection I want to emphasize one thing: that in your general hospitals and in your t.b. hospitals you get many cases toward the end of this t.b. condition, which present n.p. symptoms. Now I know from experience at Fort Bayard and in other t.b. sanitoriums, especially at Fort Bayard, where I was associated several years with Colonel Burke, that these patients become exceedingly troublesome and exceedingly annoying. However, if you are perfectly frank with yourself and perfectly frank with the n.p. man, you will admit that these cases are not primarily n.p. cases, but cases of terminal toxemia. I don’t believe myself that these cases should be hospitalized as n.p. I believe in your t.b. hospitals you should set aside a ward or two or three wards where you can take care of your terminal toxemias whose symptoms are principally mental; they should not be unloaded on the n.p. hospitals which are built and equipped for reasonably curable cases of n.p. disease.
As to what General Sawyer said about many of these n.p. cases living outside. I want to most heartily indorse that attitude, and I will say in that connection that during the past year I have turned out between two and three hundred men because I firmly believe in that view. My method for turning out these n.p. cases is as follows:
After a final conference on a man after preliminary observation, if we feel that he has come to the point where he should be given a chance, we give that man a thirty-day parole. If he has a guardian, his guardian must report every ten days. If he has not a guardian he is placed in communication with the Veterans’ Bureau officer, or a Red Cross worker in the District, in which he is paroled.
In other words, during the first thirty days I get three reports as to his condition. If after thirty days he is still doing well, I grant an extension of thirty days. During the second thirty days he reports in twice. If he is still doing well at the end of sixty days, the parole is extended to ninety. I believe in the majority of our cases that if a man makes good for ninety days, it is reasonable to suppose that he is going to make sufficient adjustment to stay outside of the institution. If, as I said, his report at the end of ninety days is a good one, he is then discharged from the Institution, with the privilege, of course, of returning. Now of all the men I have sent out under that scheme this year, I have had less than eight per cent of returns, and I consider that in the first year a fairly good average.
I want to commend that scheme to every man who has charge of an n.p. hospital and after this conference adjourns, I would like to correspond with you on that subject. I would like to compare notes because I believe it is worthy of attention.
There is one other thing brought up in a previous meeting and that was the question of our constitutional psychopath, and drug addict and the building of special hospitals for these men. I personally am not in favor of such a scheme and I will tell you why. I have a considerable number of these men. I believe that every complete n.p. hospital should have a department with definite numbers assigned from the staff who are particularly clever in handling this line of case. I think that they should be handled in your regular n.p. hospital as a separate unit.
Now there is just one thing in connection with that statement I wish to emphasize. There are a certain number of these men who do eventually make an adjustment. For the sake of that percentage alone we should not place the stigma upon them of being sent to practically a penal institution, and that is what it means if you set aside a place and brand it as a place for those of criminal tendencies and drug addicts. We tried that in New York and you all know from the papers what it resulted in.
There has been another plea. Dr. Treadway spoke of the shortage of personnel. It is acute everywhere in every department. Then on top of that comes the plea from the general hospital men, from the t.b. hospital men, for neuro-psychiatrists to be assigned to his staff. That is a physical impossibility. There are not enough n.p. men to go around and I have a solution of that which I have put up to numerous men and that is just this. Along with what General Sawyer said today about every one’s being a well-rounded out man, every man who has charge of a hospital, every man who is on the staff of a hospital taking care of ex-service men ought to go down and buy a copy of White’s Outlines and study it for the next six months. If you will do that you don’t need specialists on your staff. You can make a near enough diagnosis so you will be reasonably certain in 95% of your cases as to whether they ought to be sent to an n.p. hospital or not.
DR. FULLER: I an particularly interested in the question of personnel. The shortage of neuro-psychiatric trained personnel and physicians is a real and very acute problem. We have any number of vacancies for such men in the Public Health Service at the present time. I dare say the same conditions exist in the Army and Navy. I believe that the only way of solving the problem that Dr. McLake spoke of is for the Commending Officers of those hospitals who have one psychiatrist on their staff,—and practically all the large hospitals have one on their staff,—to insist that these psychiatrists interest other members of the staff. The fact that Dr. Treadway brought out, that most young men are not interested in psychiatry is due to the fact they do not know anything about it. I was one of the men who visited the schools last year. I was suddenly confronted by statements made by the deans or their assistants: “Oh, neuro-psychiatry, I don’t expect you will get much enthusiasm from any of the schools on that subject, because that is a post-graduate subject and we don’t make any attempt to teach it during the under-graduate years.” Any number of young men who will state a preference for general medicine can be interested in this subject about which they know nothing. The solution, therefore, depends upon the commanding officers of these hospitals and upon the psychiatrists on their staffs; depends upon their willingness to detail one or more young men to the psychiatrists, who are interested in the subject. I don’t believe that the problem is going to be solved in any other way because there are not enough men outside who are willing to come into the Government service, who are interested.
DR. MILLER: We have a specialist at Oteen who lectures to our entire medical staff Tuesday and Friday of each week. They are very much interested in it and we think it is a very great benefit to the institution and the patients.
COL. EVANS: What are you going to do with the group the doctor describes that ought to be in a colony? What are you going to do with the mentally deficient who will never be able to carry on? There is no appropriation available for that group. If the Soldiers’ Homes are not properly supplied with means or some other special effort made, every community will have these individuals as a reproach upon them, and it occurs to me there is no group of men that would be as able as this group to have the propaganda go forward that there is a problem to be solved in these cases.
DR. WHITE: I had this in mind about some of these difficult problems, some of these border-line cases I didn’t have a chance to speak of the other morning. I suggested there in just a word that in connection with these disciplinary measured such as have recently been promulgated in this order we got this morning, No. 27–A, probably we shall have to come to some form of disciplinary treatment with a considerable group of these border-line cases, and the plea I wanted to make was that discipline should not be used as discipline per se, but that we should seek for all of the possibilities that are incorporated in disciplinary measures which can be brought to bear upon the patient for his welfare;In other words, if we can make out of discipline a therapeutic tool.
Now we are dealing for the most part, in these border-line cases and in the delinquent group, with types of individuals that are more or less defective. Almost all of them are defective in some sort of way, not necessarily intellectually defective but frequently on the affective side; but there undoubtedly has to be some kind of disciplinary pressure brought to bear.
I have in mind a fellow who is a high-grade defective, who has passed through a praecox attack, who has come back to comparative normality. He is a reasonably useful citizen around the institution but he can’t get on outside the institution and he has periods of not getting on well in the institution, because every once in a while he will go out and get drunk. Now what are you going to do with that sort of fellow? Such an individual does not always stand discipline very well. A doctor came to me and talked to me about him the other day and wanted to know what should we do with this fellow. I said, “Shut him up; take his privileges away from him and watch him very carefully, because I don’t believe he will stand shutting up very well. When you have made the maximum impression upon him from that discipline, let him cut.” You have constantly to shift between severity and almost lack of discipline with these people to keep them at their level, and you have to realize all the time it is a matter of very fine adjustment and that after all you can very easily do them a great deal of harm. Therefore I am always more or less disturbed by the constant effort that is being made in bodies like this to standardize all kinds of rules and regulations, because I realize that in this class of cases particularly there are individual problems and they must be left for the individual judgment of the physician who has charge of them.
I have, for example, a clerk in the office, a man who is probably sixty odd years of age. When he is sober he is as efficient a clerk as we have in our office, but he persistently gets drunk and stays drunk for days at a time. Now the easiest thing on earth is to discharge that man. What is going to become of him? He can’t take care of himself. He has a family dependent upon him. That would mean to pauperize him and make him a public charge. I developed some time ago a method of dealing with him. I penalized him every time he got drunk by taking away a certain amount of his pay. It was hard punishment. He does not get much pay. The result was I pushed him to the limit, because it cost him too much to drink. The result was he had longer periods of sobriety than he ever had before, but he did break down once in a while, and when he did we had to forgive him.
Now we have to deal with that sort of problem among our employees and patients, and we are put to it constantly to devise out of our ingenuity how best to meet it; and one of the agencies at our command is the disciplinary measure, which, if wisely enforced, can be used to push the patient to the highest possibility of his adjustment.
Then, in that connection, as to our friends, the morons and epileptics. I am fond of saying that practically everybody, no matter how defective he may be, has a certain capacity for usefulness. There is almost nobody who is, under proper arrangements, a total loss socially. A Moron, of six or seven years of age, may be ten per cent efficient. He may be ten per cent efficient under one set at social conditions, maybe fifteen per cent efficient under another set. He may be total loss under other sets of conditions.
Now a lot of these people, like the young fellow I spoke of a while ago, are very useful citizens in the hospital community. They would be a total liability outside that community. We have always had these people in the community and we always shall have them probably. It is perhaps a worth-while endeavor to try to get the community, through these various social agencies, to appreciate them for certain values. One of the medical officers of the Army was discussing with me, a while ago, this problem in the South, in the cotton mill districts, where there is a large number of mentally deficient people. They do not do much of anything, except perhaps, drink whiskey, breed and make trouble. They go into the mills and either get injured or discharged. A lot of that material is really capable of utilization. The mental defectives, as a whole, are fairly good natured and tractable. There were lots of mental defectives in the Army, enlisted men, who carried on and made good soldiers. Some young fellows went into the Army from the School of Feeble Minded, in Massachusetts, and had excellent records. The Superintendent there kept track of his feeble-minded boys in the Army, and they made excellent records because they belong to that type of individual which has a very strong leaning upon persons in authority and will follow his officer like a Newfoundland dog his master, will obey orders to the letter and they make most valuable persons. So this officer suggested to me that these feeble-minded groups running around might be assembled into industrial units. They could be worked in factories. In order to avoid the possibility of exploiting that type of labor they could be employed under proper social conditions and placed under the eye of a neuro-psychiatrist; and where there was an immense shortage of labor, perhaps factory owners would be pleased to get these men.
In other words there is a lot of this defective material which exists in our society today which has absolutely lost motion, which could be put to a great deal of use if we were wise enough to do it, if public sentiment would support us and assist. It is easy to talk of that here. It is another thing to get public sentiment to help us. There is no longer hospitals organization than this in the world and perhaps the hundred hospitals represented here might do something to bring about that public sentiment. So I am disposed to look at people not from a strictly diagnostic point of view to look at them from the social point of view as to the possibility of their becoming useful to a certain degree as social units and the possibility of society metabolizing them.
Just one more word. There has been an enormous amount said the last few years on heredity, and there is a great deal of feeling that there is a great deal due to heredity.The study is very interesting, scientifically very important, but the only attitude we should assume is to practically throw out of consideration the whole question of inheritance. If you are going to say this fellow has got a certain disease, and you are going to conclude it is inherited, that is a fatalistic diagnosis and the tendency of the diagnosis is to hamstring any effort that may be made in his behalf. The only way we can find out the percentage of salvageable material is to endeavor to make the adjustment. If we put them down as hereditary, our inclination will be to throw them out of the possibility of consideration. We should rather stress the possibilities to the utmost and find some solution or partial solution of a great many of these problems.
DR. CHRONQUEST (U.S.P.H.S.): So much has been said that I shall not go on with the problem. I would mention the Compensation side. I have been wondering for some time, especially among the neuroses, if by our present system of compensation we are not tending to make crystallized neuroses. I do not pretend to answer the question. Take, for example, a chap who has been in the service, who has done good work, whose social scale has not been high, whose life prior to service has been, as you might say, from hand to mouth. He has come out of the service with a definite, known disability acquired by service. By being hospitalized he has been compensated justly by the Government; he has received the treatment to which he is entitled; but during the days of his treatment he has found that he is able to get along more easily under these conditions than he did prior to service, and decides that one of the best ways he can make a living is by Compensation. I do not say that that is true with all, but it is with some of the cases.
I have wondered whether or not our present system of compensation to that type of individual was the best, or whether the system of Canada or England would be better. In other words, they do not put a premium on a man to go to a hospital. If I am correct, a man gets less money when he goes into a hospital than when he is out. It is my meagre opinion that in that type of neurosis, he would tend to fight harder as an individual to put himself back into a financial, gainful pursuit; and with the advantages the Government offers him now, especially through rehabilitation, I feel he could be put on a much better adjustment than he was before.
Another point which has recently come to the attention of us locally is the question of guardianship; and I am going to ask Dr. Guthrie if it is a known fact that two men in the same hospital, with the same disease—that one will draw his compensation without a guardian, the other is required to have one.
DR. GUTHRIE: It was our understanding that a man who is a psychotic by reason of service should at least have a guardian. If that is not true, I suggest to the Hospital Committee that it is a point for consideration, as it puts the man in the field between the devil and the deep, blue sea.
DR. W. A. WHITE: I think the man who has a guardian has one usually because his people have applied for such. I believe the Bureau never relinquishes the right to control of the funds, and is not obliged to pay the funds to the guardian. Legally the patient can be paid if he is competent.
DR. CHRONQUEST: In looking over histories of cases that come to West Roxbury and information received, I believe that a point that would be of help to the service as a whole is the getting of accurate histories. We find patients being transferred to N.P. hospitals, who have a diagnosis which is not correct according to the past histories taken, due to the fact that careful search has not been made in gathering the facts of the men’s disabilities. At times it may be the fault of the examiningphysician. It may be the fault of the social service department. Again, it may be the fault of the individual, or of the family itself in trying to protect the patient in question. I believe that those errors, which are seen every once in a while, should be overcome; and I feel that all of us, whether Neuro-psychiatrists or not, who have anything to do with either neuroses or psychoses, should be extremely careful of the histories and get them complete, detailed and accurate.
COLONEL MATTISON: (acting for General Geo. Wood) The Tuberculosis Section has to deal with a group of patients,—the largest group that the Veterans’ Bureau has to handle. I am sure that we have many men here who are interested in this subject, and I hope we shall have a very free discussion of the subject. We shall begin by having each subject opened, and then the program will be given to general discussion. We shall ask Dr. Stites to open the session on “The Segregation of Cases”.
SURGEON T. H. A. STITES (R) U.S.P.H.S.: This question of segregation of Tubercular cases is one that has been vexing all of us for a long while. To understand it at all we have got to review the history of T.B.,—from the ancient times when T.B. was looked upon as a sort of visitation from Heaven, and looked upon as a disgrace to the family, on down to the period when Koch, with his great discovery, found the disease to be infectious. During that time there came on an organized propaganda for the control of T.B. upon the ground that any infectious disease is a preventable disease. This propaganda, as is true of all propaganda, ran to an extreme. It was so hard for those interested in proving that T.B. was an infectious disease to impress it upon the public and to compel them to accept the proposition of its infectiousness, that we went to the extreme of leading everybody to the idea that it was a virulent infection; that it was as contagious possibly as some of the acute infections like scarlatina.
There were those who believed that every case should be sent to a T.B. hospital, absolutely isolated from his family and the world in general. Then the pendulum began to swing back, and we came to a sensible conclusion,—that while T.B. is an infectious disease, it is only slightly so to the adult; and if virulent at all, it is so only among children and the adolescent. This being so, we had to change from the separate and isolated hospital for T.B. It has been accepted that every general hospital should receive its quota of T.B. patients, T.B. being one of the most common forms of illness, and that in sending out patients to a strictly T.B. hospital; they should be sent only after the presence of the disease has been fully well proven.
The control of T.B. is after all the big problem before all of us in T.B. work today. I have often heard it said that any benefit that comes to the individual is necessarily more or less incidental, and that the big object we are laboring for is the control of the disease and the care of the general public health. Be that as it may, the problem that faces us in the care of the veteran of the World War is the actual care of the sick.
The question of prevention of T. B. must be dealt with, first, upon educational grounds,—to educate the public and the individual to the point where we can more or less limit the spread of the infection; secondly, and perhaps more important,—by a campaign for the improved living conditions of our people in general, especially in childhood.
As a matter of fact, when you get right down to it, T.B. is a social disease; it is a social problem even more than it is a medical problem. We know that when the good Lord made us, he put into us a certain amount of quality which, for lack of a better term, we have called natural resistance. If we can keep that natural resistance at a high point,—build it up,—the infection, though it may strike us, will not produce the clinical disease, T.B.
In the second place, we come to the actual treatment of the sick. This, too, is largely a hygienic measure. Since time immemorial, those interested in T.B. have been searching, have been praying for a specific cure. Every now and then somebody bobs up with a story of how he is going to cure T.B. overnight by this or that injection, treatment, etc. In each of these cases there is a grain of fundamental truth. We have got to put these things together; and when we get down to the final conclusion we can not get away from the fact that the treatment of T.B. is the building up, the bringing back to normal, and in fact if you can, the reaction to the point beyond the normal, of that quality I spoke of, natural resistance.
In order to accomplish this, I believe one of the most important points lies in the word, morale; and to encourage your morale, it is wise to get your classes classified, and to get your T.B. patients working together in classes in sufficiently large numbers so that you get that inspiration that comes from what my friend used to speak of as “the psychology of the crowd.” The thing the soldiers know as the touch of the elbow; there is a certain magic in it. It is easier to get farther when you know that somebody besides yourself is going through the same thing. I think we men in charge of hospitals feel that. That is one of the inspirations that comes to me from meeting with such a crowd of my fellows here. Away off there in the swamps of Louisiana there comes a sort of feeling, “We are here alone; it is hopeless”. When we are all here together exchanging experiences, there comes the inspiration, “We are not alone”.
In your general hospitals you have T.B. beds; have them in sections by themselves,—not because you are afraid of the spreading of the disease, not because the T.B. patient is an outcast,—but because you can do more successful work for the patient, not by segregation, but by classes.
In your T.B. sections, have your sub-divisions; have your places to which you are going to send your ambulatory cases, your far advanced, etc. Keep them far apart. Use the class system, but be sure that your personnel is sufficient, so as not to get away from the personal touch.
Perhaps a little outline of the organization of at least two of the hospitals with which I am familiar will illustrate my point.
The first essential thing when a patient enters a hospital is a complete examination. Do not let that examination be routine because it is a T.B. patient. Do not be satisfied with punching the man in the chest and sticking your ear to his heart. Have somebody who understands neurological conditions, test his nerve reactions; have someone to test his mental reactions, as well as the surgical and general medical. Have your examination ward in which this can be done.
Next is your general medical and, possibly, observation ward. I don’t care how you try to keep observation cases out of T.B. hospitals,—they are going to get in. If a patient, after being in a month, is found to be a T.B. case, he is apt to say, “I caught it here”. Put him where you can answer, “You did not get it here. You have not been in sufficiently close contact with the disease to catch it.”
Have your surgical ward; and then your strictly T.B. section.
Have first your infirmary or hospital.
The T.B. man needs special treatment, nursing care and dietetic care. One of the chief things to give to a T.B. infirmary is good dietetic care;—place the food before your patient in an appetizing manner; too much will disgust him.
Then have your ambulant section and sub-divide it into the section in which there is clinical activity of the disease, and into the section in which the clinical condition of the disease is quiescent. By doing this you can give your people graduated exercises, whatever diets they may need, periods of rest, and occupational therapy; and you can do it in an organized, scientific way, and get away from the everlasting complaint, “You let the fellow in the next bed do it; why won’t you let me do it?”
You have got to study the psychology of your patient. It may be a little out of the line of segregation of cases. We have heard the talk here of cases, of hospital management, and all that; but be sure in dealing with the ex-service man, or any other case, that you do not treat him merely as a case; that you do not segregate the medical officer in charge. I find there in the South that one of my life-savers is the fact that my office door is open to any patient. When I first got to be understood there was a line-up. I gave an hour every day. Now, since the patients know that everyone can come to me, I have possibly three or four in a day. And I don’t do it either by reversing the decisions of my ward surgeon and my executive officer; I back them up.
DR. KLAUTZ (N.H.D.V.S., Johnson City, Tenn.):
The subject of occupation in connection with T.B., is not only an extremely important one but an extremely difficult one to administer, particularly in the large government institution, and especially in connection with the psychology of the ex-service man, which has been referred to a number of times. He is apt to misunderstand and to be resentful toward any application of work; and yet at the same time, if we are going to measure the results of the sanitarium treatment of T.B. by the functional restoration to activity and usefulness, we still find that it results in a great many failures. That has been one of the complaints on the part of T.B. workers not only in government but in civil institutions as well.
We still find relapses occurring after the patient has been discharged from the sanitarium or T.B. hospital. Men go into training, and in a short time undergo another course of treatment, and so on. The reason for that is that they have not been given the necessary physical rehabilitation while still in the sanitarium, while under institutional protection and medical supervision.
The question of occupation is so broad that it is impossible to take it up extensively here today. We can point out one or two of the basic principles in connection with its application in the treatment of T.B. One very important feature brought out this morning is the psychotherapeutic object,—the point of view of relaxation or recreation, that is, giving the man something to occupy his mind and improve his morale, helping him to forget his home anxieties and anxiety about compensation.
The second point, or 2 A, deals with muscular reconstruction,—conversion of recently acquired adipose tissue into working force by rebuilding flabby muscular tissue which has resulted from the long period of rest.
2 A is the acquiring of a tolerance for T.B, toxins. This is important. We do know that in the recently toxic stage, exercise or work does produce a reaction which is shown by a rise in pulse rate. We know that if exercise is begun in small doses and gradually increased, the time will come when the patient can be made to take a fairly large amount of exercise continuing over a fairly long period of time, without manifesting the symptoms of reaction. Formerly we gave Tuberculin in gradual doses until we reached the point where the man could take an injection which surely would have killed him at the beginning of the course. The main point is if a man leaves the sanitarium before he reaches this toxin tolerance, he is more likely to break down. This is the reason for the man’s frequently returning to the sanitarium for treatment.
The third point deals with applying occupation as a means of training or retraining the man for some new occupation or modification of his former occupation; and here is where a great deal of judgment and study of the individual case becomes necessary. It is very difficult to find out just what is the best kind of work for the man from a physical and mental point of view; but the important thing is to have the man try it out and test it, and begin this physical reconstruction and rehabilitation if we are to get permanent results from sanitarium treatment. I don’t believe we have solved the problem completely, and I believe other agencies will have to be called in.
In this connection the question of dispensary work and social and nursing follow-up work is going to be extremely important. The man who leaves an institution ought to be followed up very carefully, and effort should be made to bring him back to some medical unit for re-examination at least every two months in order to see if there is any relapse of the former activity.
SENIOR SURGEON R. H. STANLEY, USPHS (R): It is always interesting of course, to be told what we ought to do and how to do it, but it seems to me it would be a great deal more interesting to take the little time we have this afternoon and discuss some of our real problems, and I mean by that problems that we as commanding officers of the hospitals have to contend with every day. I know and you know there are thousands of little things come up upon which we would like to have advice. There are many problems I might be able to solve readily; there are others you would be able to solve. I believe it would be worth more to tell how to get rid of some of these problems.
I believe that the success of running a hospital rests entirely upon the confidence that your patients have in you. If you are sincere they know it, and when they know that they will do anything for you. If you are not sincere they are going to know it mighty quick and you are going to have trouble. If you tell the men you are with them, that you are going to be 50–50 with them, if you call them in and talk to them as you would to a son, and if you let them see you are not doing it because of a matter of necessity, you can get by without writing petitions into Washington.
I found the other day a petition had gone to Washington from my hospital. It was necessary to discharge two men for drinking. It was their first offense. They came to me and said, “You have not treated us fair because it is our first offense.” Just before I left my station I received a letter which was addressed to these men by Colonel Forbes. In that letter he said “I have received your petition signed by 27 patients and asking that the hospital be investigated on account of a few patients being discharged for drinking. I wish to state for your benefit that I have given the matter consideration and I am standing right behind the medical officer in charge.” Leaving out the names, I had copies made of those letters and placed one of them on the bulletin board of the hospital.
When I went out to Whipple Barracks there had been some little disturbance there among the men. They were dissatisfied in various ways and it seemed like a big problem how to handle these men. When I once had their confidence I handled them.
I have found this in my experience, that I have never been able to have a satisfied personnel unless I give them the best I can. So long as you feed them well you will not have much trouble, because that will keep up the morale better than any other one thing I know. If you will feed them, be honest with them, be fair, you will have very little trouble in running the hospital.
SURGEON J. F. WALLACE, USPHS (R): The subject of entertainment probably would cover the subject of recreation at hospitals. It is rather hard for me to describe what recreation should be given at a tuberculous hospital because it depends on the location of the hospital. At the hospital at Fort Stanton where I am located we do not have any entertainment. If any social workers come down there I will be glad to entertain them, because we have only three visitors a year down there. That is one of the things in which I would compare our institution with some of these other institutions.
For many years I have been connected with a large sanitorium where we had strict discipline and little entertainment. The patients were satisfied. Our average stay of patients is six months. In looking over your sanitoriums you don’t find many patients staying six months.
When I was in the Army I was in one of the largest t.b. sanitoriums of the country. They sent back hundreds of men to this hospital and people came out and entertained them. They were entertained every night by the Red Cross with moving pictures, they were entertained in the afternoons by a local organization; they were entertained to death. These men afterwards got out and were not satisfied unless they were placed in an institution which was a social center. After I went out I was Chief of the Eleventh t. b. district of Denver. I noticed that the men who were treated at Fort Lyon were a better class to handle because they were not so much entertained. Once in a while I would talk to some of these men and ask them if they wanted to get well, as I could tell them a place to go and frequently I used to send them to Fort Stanton where they could not be entertained and they could get well.
If you have ever lived in an isolated place, you can appreciate it. My wife and I had pioneered this sanitorium together for quite a while. Once in a while we used to go to Denver and we could enjoy any show they had in Denver, even the 10–cent and 20–cent ones. I have heard men criticize entertainments at Fitzsimmons; they would swear and walk out while Madame Schumann-Heinck was singing, because they were dissatisfied; they were saturated with entertainment. I am against entertainment for tuberculous patients only in a very mild degree. We have one picture show a week and they enjoy that picture show. We have only Sunday School Sundaymorning. The minister will bring in a few amateur singers and the boys think they are wonderful; they are wonderful; and they will all sing.
I have some fifty War Risk patients at my Sanitorium. I have known them for three years. I know them all by name. They were kicked out from Sanitorium to Sanitorium. They came down to Stanton. I went there on the first of July and no man has asked for his transfer or discharge. I suppose there is less turn-over of t.b. patients at any place than at Fort Stanton, where there is no entertainment. These men can go anywhere. We have a 30,000 or 40,000 acre farm. We try to get these men interested in the different things in the Sanitorium. On Christmas we let the men arrange the Christmas trees. They amuse themselves down there. The men trap quite a number of wild animals, bob cats, etc. and they are interested in the place we have, which is close to nature. You would be surprised how little amusement you need for entertainment if you get away from it. You have got to control these men and direct them every minute in the day. You have got to give them a task. Have their hours for rest; their hours for exercise. It is up to you who are running Sanitoriums to entertain your men. You might lecture to them; that is entertainment; but don’t have them twice a week or three times a week. Once in a great while the men are interested in the study of their disease. Don’t speak to them in scientific terms, let them understand the disease. They say in the curing of tuberculosis it depends more upon what a man has from his neck up than what he has from the neck down. Impress upon them that they have got to live a careful life. Keep people out who want to entertain them. Your men will be just as well and better satisfied with little entertainment if you keep them busy all day long.
DR. SMITH, U.S.P.H.S.: I wanted to discuss this afternoon a matter which is of great concern to all branches of the service, and that is Order 59 as applied to transfers from hospital to hospital. Order 59 is going to be watched rather carefully by the Veterans’ Bureau. Order 59 lists hospitals and gives a certain number of hospitals to each district. A district manager in New York may take a tuberculous patient and send him to a local hospital or he may send him away to a certain designated hospital to which he has blanket authority to send him, Oteen or Fitzsimmons; but according to Order 59, once they send a man to a local hospital, the district manager may not remove the man from that hospital and send the man to Fitzsimmons Hospital in Denver. In other words, it is worth watching to see whether Order 59 will not rather tempt the district managers to make a snap diagnosis on the ground and send away to the hospital to which he has blanket authorization to make transfers, on the one hand, a man whose disease is so far advanced, that it might be unwise to send him; or, on the other hand, men with questionable diagnosis. It will be worth watching. I am sure the Veterans’ Bureau will desire information on the subject as to whether you who are out in the tuberculous hospitals will receive classes of patients who are unsuitable in the usual sense of the word for transfer.
Here is another thing we shall all need to watch and concerning which the Veterans’ Bureau will I know desire information. Will the practice of sending patients to the local general hospitals result in a piling up of patients who need to be transferred and whose transfers will be delayed. We all know that a transfer is indicated not only for the purpose of providing a climatic change and we all know that in certain sections of the country there are provided beds for tuberculous patients and it is necessary to keep these beds filled.
According to the present practice and strict interpretation of order 59, if the medical officer in charge of the Naval Hospital in New York has a tuberculous patient and wants to effect his discharge to Fitzsimmons, he first asks the district manager for permission to transfer the patient. The district manager in turn asks the Director of the Veterans’ Bureau; the Director of the Veterans’ Bureau advises the district manager, who in turn advises the officer in charge of the Navy Hospital. Now it will be necessary to watch and see whether this effects an undesirable delay in making the transfers. The Veterans’ Bureau will desire to be informed if such is the case.
There is another thing. A patient under treatment at Fort Bayard, New Mexico, and fit for discharge cannot, according to a strict interpretation of Order 59 be discharged without invoking the same authorities who sent him there. In other words, he must take it up with the district manager, who then advises the man in charge of the hospital.
Order 59 is magnificent in this, if it works out: that no man will be transferred from one hospital to another except upon the recommendation of the medical officer in charge, and you who have had experience in this matter will know what that means. It means that it is not the man with the longest and strongest pull who will be transferred but the man whose transfer is recommended by the officer in charge of the hospital. We are prepared to assist in every possible way in carrying out that order but it is necessary for us to watch the effect from the field and get advices from all hospitals concerned, as to whether this order will not need modification.
SURGEON F. H. MCKEON, USPHS: Some have stated that they were in ignorance of the existence of G. O. 27. At Hospital # 64, upon the receipt of that order we immediately had about one hundred copies made and the entire hospital personnel was supplied therewith. After that every man upon admission was furnished with a copy, together with a copy of the rules of the hospital, for which he signed a receipt. I offer that as a suggestion.
On Tuesday the statement was made here that a man who is able to take five or six hours prevocational training at a hospital has no place in a hospital and should be in training. I think that statement should be qualified somewhat. It may easily happen that a man who can safely take five or six hours prevocational training in a hospital wouldsoon break down under vocational training, for the reason that while he is in hospital his entire life is supervised; he must take a rest hour; he must turn in at a given time at night; he is assured of three or possibly more proper meals a day. Those conditions do not obtain when that man becomes a trainee and I sincerely hope that the follow-up nursing system which the Veterans’ Bureau is putting into effect now will result in a more careful supervision of the trainee’s life, so that when it is found he is living not wisely but too well he may be given proper advice and be returned to the hospital before the breakdown occurs.
This afternoon the subject of hospitalizing the tuberculous veteran in n. p. hospitals was discussed. I rather think it a somewhat sweeping assertion to say that every tuberculous individual with mental symptoms should be hospitalized in a t. b. sanitorium. We will all grant that men with signs and symptoms of an active tuberculosis disease should be hospitalized in an institution for the treatment of tuberculous. But to my mind that does not hold where the disability is clearly a mental disorder; that man is ambulant. The other man gives no trouble whatever because he is bed-ridden. I have no doubt that every t. b. hospital commander here today has had such cases. Your ambulant case, with few if any indications of active tuberculosis but who notwithstanding is tubercular, when he develops mental symptoms is not only a source of annoyance in the tuberculosis hospital but is destructive of morale. His place is clearly in a hospital for the treatment of mental cases.
DR. M. C. GUTHRIE, U. S. VETERANS’ BUREAU: This matter affects us administratively from a different angle. Many of the general hospitals have wards for the cure of tuberculosis. We presume that the turn-over must be fairly rapid. When men have accumulated in sufficient number and their disposition is determined as to whether they should go to a tuberculous institution, and they refuse to go, shall we turn them out or shall we let them stay?
SURGEON L. M. WILBUR, USPHS: If the transfer is suggested in the interest of the physical welfare of the patient and he refuses to accept that transfer, he is interfering with treatment. The regulations provide for that.
SENIOR SURGEON T. R. PAYNE, USPHS: I don’t agree with some of the t. b. men. I think a man can make a fight if he is dissatisfied and does not want to go and I think you will do harm in transferring him. If a man is home-sick and will not improve, I think he will do very much better to stay just where he is and you ought not force that man to go somewhere where he will not be satisfied. A sanatorium is a school to teach men how to live. In a general hospital you will have trouble in enforcing a rest hour because there are a great many other men in the institution who are not compelled to do so. The pass privilege is another thing. Some patients have but one pass a week and other patients get passes frequently. It serves to dissatisfy the t. b. men as they felt they were not on an equal footing. That is the only objection I can see.