Whitehall, March 14, 1821.My dear Lord,I feel, indeed, much indebted to your Lordship for your letter of the 11th inst., and we are all grateful to you for your criticisms on the Bills; and this I should have told you before, but that I was entirely occupied by professional business throughout yesterday morning, and, besides, I wished to consult with Lord Grenville (with whom I was engaged to dine yesterday) as to the policy of some of the amendments you have suggested. Some are obviously improvements on the face of them. The difficulty, as I foresaw, arises as to the insertion of the additional words to express, "That no one shall exercise the function of a bishop who shall not have been approved by the King." We discussed this point fully last night, and Lord Grenville is decidedly of opinion (and this he desired me to mention to you, as from him) that if we venture upon it we shallshipwreckthe whole measure. By having the negative of the King to the nomination of any person whose loyalty and good conduct may be suspected, we surely have, in substance and effect, all the security which can be necessary for the protection of the Protestant establishment; and it would be a sad pity to hazard a measure which, to a certain extent, at least, is happily advanced, for the sake of expressions, preferable certainly, but not essential for our security. I have been with Plunket on the subject this morning, and his view coincides with Lord Grenville's entirely. He says it would be laid hold of immediately by the enemies to the measure amongst the Catholics, and made the source of much discontent and irritation, and that the rather because the Bill has been transmitted to them in its present shape, as the measure to be proposed on this branch of the subject. I should add, that Plunket expressed the greatest anxiety to concur in any suggestion which came from you.You suggest the exclusion of Roman Catholics from the office of Lord Chancellor of Ireland; but it does not seem to me—and, what is of more consequence, it does not seem to Lord Grenville—that the same reasons exist to exclude them from this office which may be urged against their filling the office of Lord High Chancellor. The Irish Chancellor has not,virtute officii, the disposal of Church patronage, nor is he called upon to advise the King in any way respecting it; and the same principle, therefore, which might be applied to exclude them from this function, might be put forward as a ground for their exclusion from the functions of any judge. To say the truth, Lord Grenville is so great an enemy to the principle of exclusion, that he suggested, instead of the clause as it now stands, that no Lord Chancellor should dispose of any Church preferment till he had subscribed the Thirty-nine Articles; but upon suggesting this alteration, we found it would raise such a storm from the Dissenters (who are already moving in all directions against the measure), that there was no option but to abandon it. It will be a satisfaction to you to know that Lord Grenville has been consulted throughout, and has himself revised and corrected the Bills. He appears exceedingly anxious for the success of them; and certainly, when we reflect how much his public life has been connected and mixed up, as it were, with the Catholic question, we cannot be surprised at the exultation he would naturally feel at witnessing the complete triumph of opinions he has so long and so uniformly held.The anti-Catholic country gentlemen complain of the apathy of the country; and the King has told Lord Fife he hopes he will vote according to his fancy on the question. These are favourable symptoms.Believe me, your faithful and obliged,Joseph Phillimore.
Whitehall, March 14, 1821.
My dear Lord,
I feel, indeed, much indebted to your Lordship for your letter of the 11th inst., and we are all grateful to you for your criticisms on the Bills; and this I should have told you before, but that I was entirely occupied by professional business throughout yesterday morning, and, besides, I wished to consult with Lord Grenville (with whom I was engaged to dine yesterday) as to the policy of some of the amendments you have suggested. Some are obviously improvements on the face of them. The difficulty, as I foresaw, arises as to the insertion of the additional words to express, "That no one shall exercise the function of a bishop who shall not have been approved by the King." We discussed this point fully last night, and Lord Grenville is decidedly of opinion (and this he desired me to mention to you, as from him) that if we venture upon it we shallshipwreckthe whole measure. By having the negative of the King to the nomination of any person whose loyalty and good conduct may be suspected, we surely have, in substance and effect, all the security which can be necessary for the protection of the Protestant establishment; and it would be a sad pity to hazard a measure which, to a certain extent, at least, is happily advanced, for the sake of expressions, preferable certainly, but not essential for our security. I have been with Plunket on the subject this morning, and his view coincides with Lord Grenville's entirely. He says it would be laid hold of immediately by the enemies to the measure amongst the Catholics, and made the source of much discontent and irritation, and that the rather because the Bill has been transmitted to them in its present shape, as the measure to be proposed on this branch of the subject. I should add, that Plunket expressed the greatest anxiety to concur in any suggestion which came from you.
You suggest the exclusion of Roman Catholics from the office of Lord Chancellor of Ireland; but it does not seem to me—and, what is of more consequence, it does not seem to Lord Grenville—that the same reasons exist to exclude them from this office which may be urged against their filling the office of Lord High Chancellor. The Irish Chancellor has not,virtute officii, the disposal of Church patronage, nor is he called upon to advise the King in any way respecting it; and the same principle, therefore, which might be applied to exclude them from this function, might be put forward as a ground for their exclusion from the functions of any judge. To say the truth, Lord Grenville is so great an enemy to the principle of exclusion, that he suggested, instead of the clause as it now stands, that no Lord Chancellor should dispose of any Church preferment till he had subscribed the Thirty-nine Articles; but upon suggesting this alteration, we found it would raise such a storm from the Dissenters (who are already moving in all directions against the measure), that there was no option but to abandon it. It will be a satisfaction to you to know that Lord Grenville has been consulted throughout, and has himself revised and corrected the Bills. He appears exceedingly anxious for the success of them; and certainly, when we reflect how much his public life has been connected and mixed up, as it were, with the Catholic question, we cannot be surprised at the exultation he would naturally feel at witnessing the complete triumph of opinions he has so long and so uniformly held.
The anti-Catholic country gentlemen complain of the apathy of the country; and the King has told Lord Fife he hopes he will vote according to his fancy on the question. These are favourable symptoms.
Believe me, your faithful and obliged,
Joseph Phillimore.
MR. CHARLES W. WYNN TO THE MARQUIS OF BUCKINGHAM.
March 15, 1821.I am most sensible, my dear B——, of the kindness of your continued and active interest for Henry, and, if I saw anything like an opening, should not hesitate to follow up the overture which you have made in his behalf; but unless some new circumstance had occurred since your letter to Lord Liverpool, which presented a mode of effecting its object, I really should think it too early to make a second application; besides which, I quite agree with my uncle, that, in the present situation of affairs, it is preferable that any application of this nature should, as you have yourself determined, proceed through Lord Liverpool rather than Lord Castlereagh; but if I can get an opportunity of reminding Castlereagh, I certainly will not neglect it.Everything I see and everything I hear contribute to make me more and more sanguine respecting the Catholic question. The tide clearly sets at present in its favour, and the King's good inclinations are every day more and more surmised. The principal defalcation of strength which we have to apprehend arises from the present disjointed and divided state of the Opposition, the members of which are outrageous against each other, and, according to Macdonald's report, may be expected by the next Session to split into three or more distinct parties. He did not specify either the persons likely to form these, or the points in dispute. At present one can only see the Mountain and their lukewarm coadjutors; but what the third is to be, remains to be shown. The amendments which you suggest to the Catholic Bills appear to me, in general, improvements, with the exception of the addition of the Chancellorship of Ireland to the excepted offices, and the requiring that the King should signify hisapprobationto the Bishops before the exercise of episcopal functions. Both of these would have the effect of extremely diminishing theeffectof the measure in Ireland.Lord Grenville strongly objected to the exception even of the English Chancellor, as justifiable upon no principle, when the exercise of ecclesiastical patronage had been provided for in the other part of the Bill; and it is difficult to discover what principle can justify the exclusion of the Chancellor of Ireland, which would not also extend to every other judicial situation. We must recollect that the Irish Catholic barristers are just the body who have, after the priests, the greatest influence, and whom it is most desirable not to leave a perpetual badge of degradation and inferiority upon. With respect to the necessity of signifying the King's express approbation, it is one of the points which the Irish clergy most objected to, and the omission of which has most reconciled them to the measure; and if the efficient control is attained, it surely is desirable that we should not be nice as to the exact mode in which it shall be exerted. In my own view—and, what is far more important, in that of my uncle—the question of securities is, from the great alteration in the situation of Europe since 1813, become of comparatively small importance, and rather to be conceded to satisfy the scruples of others, and facilitate the final success of this great measure, than to be insisted upon by ourselves.Dawson's speech against the army estimates last night occasioned surprise, and looks as if the Catholic question had occasioned some hitch in hisbeau-pèrePeel's negotiations.Ever most faithfully yours,C. W. W.
March 15, 1821.
I am most sensible, my dear B——, of the kindness of your continued and active interest for Henry, and, if I saw anything like an opening, should not hesitate to follow up the overture which you have made in his behalf; but unless some new circumstance had occurred since your letter to Lord Liverpool, which presented a mode of effecting its object, I really should think it too early to make a second application; besides which, I quite agree with my uncle, that, in the present situation of affairs, it is preferable that any application of this nature should, as you have yourself determined, proceed through Lord Liverpool rather than Lord Castlereagh; but if I can get an opportunity of reminding Castlereagh, I certainly will not neglect it.
Everything I see and everything I hear contribute to make me more and more sanguine respecting the Catholic question. The tide clearly sets at present in its favour, and the King's good inclinations are every day more and more surmised. The principal defalcation of strength which we have to apprehend arises from the present disjointed and divided state of the Opposition, the members of which are outrageous against each other, and, according to Macdonald's report, may be expected by the next Session to split into three or more distinct parties. He did not specify either the persons likely to form these, or the points in dispute. At present one can only see the Mountain and their lukewarm coadjutors; but what the third is to be, remains to be shown. The amendments which you suggest to the Catholic Bills appear to me, in general, improvements, with the exception of the addition of the Chancellorship of Ireland to the excepted offices, and the requiring that the King should signify hisapprobationto the Bishops before the exercise of episcopal functions. Both of these would have the effect of extremely diminishing theeffectof the measure in Ireland.
Lord Grenville strongly objected to the exception even of the English Chancellor, as justifiable upon no principle, when the exercise of ecclesiastical patronage had been provided for in the other part of the Bill; and it is difficult to discover what principle can justify the exclusion of the Chancellor of Ireland, which would not also extend to every other judicial situation. We must recollect that the Irish Catholic barristers are just the body who have, after the priests, the greatest influence, and whom it is most desirable not to leave a perpetual badge of degradation and inferiority upon. With respect to the necessity of signifying the King's express approbation, it is one of the points which the Irish clergy most objected to, and the omission of which has most reconciled them to the measure; and if the efficient control is attained, it surely is desirable that we should not be nice as to the exact mode in which it shall be exerted. In my own view—and, what is far more important, in that of my uncle—the question of securities is, from the great alteration in the situation of Europe since 1813, become of comparatively small importance, and rather to be conceded to satisfy the scruples of others, and facilitate the final success of this great measure, than to be insisted upon by ourselves.
Dawson's speech against the army estimates last night occasioned surprise, and looks as if the Catholic question had occasioned some hitch in hisbeau-pèrePeel's negotiations.
Ever most faithfully yours,
C. W. W.
MR. W. H. FREMANTLE TO THE MARQUIS OF BUCKINGHAM.
Pall Mall, March 16, 1821.My dear Lord,I am hurried to death by the time, and therefore must make my relation short I endeavoured to meet the Duke yesterday morning; but failing in this, I enclosed your note to me, saying I owed it to him not to withhold such information for hisprivate ear, and desiring him to send me back your note. He sent it back in half an hour, with the enclosed note from himself. This morning he begged to see me; and being on a Committee, and not released till four o'clock, I have only at this moment come from him at his office.He entered into a very full discussion of the whole business; and, first and foremost, declared in most positive and unequivocal terms, that he was perfectly innocent of the charge imputed to him, and that, fortunately, he had been so guarded in his whole proceedings throughout this disagreeable quarrel between Lord W—— and his wife, that he should be enabled most fully and clearly to rebut and destroy any charge ... that might be brought against him. But feeling this, however, very strongly, he had been to Lord C—— this morning; had consulted with him upon it; and, for the sake of the family, he thought it most essential, and most highly desirable, if possible, to prevent Lord W—— from bringing the charge forward. He considered Lord W——'s object to be founded exclusively on a wish to blacken her character, and to enable him to come forward with more effect in his defence (which he must make) in the case in which he is involved with Mr. W——; that however much he might blacken her in the first instance, it would ultimately recoil on himself, and therefore it was a real object to stop the further proceedings, if possible; that he (the Duke) had done everything in his power to reconcile the differences throughout, and that such must appear if Lord W—— persisted. These were the grounds on which, as a gentleman (without adverting to a personal consideration), he thinks he ought to advise that a stop should be put to W——'s further prosecution of this charge against his wife. Thehabeas corpushas been demanded, and must be discussed to-morrow, atthreeo'clock, in the Chancellor's private chamber; but in this discussion, if Lord W—— persists, this business must be gone into. The great object, therefore, that the Duke would recommend is, that you should, if you think proper, before that time communicate by a special messenger to W——, or to the individual through whom you gained your information, and endeavour to persuade him (the Duke being so completely armed against such a charge, and so prepared to refute it ultimately), that it could only for a moment serve his purpose, but in the end would damage his case. Indeed, I am persuaded, from what he said, that if W—— abandoned this attack on his wife, there would be little doubt that Mr. W—— would ultimately give way, and not call him up for his defence. In the many communications which W—— has had with the Duke, he has, at various times, not only personally, but by letter, absolved the Duke from all suspicion on his part of criminality ... and the Duke, throughout all these transactions and communications which he has had with Lady W——, has uniformly and constantly consulted and advised with her brother, Lord C——, upon them.I have written to you, therefore, as I assured the Duke I would do, and at his desire, and have ventured to say that I was quite sure you would view the circumstance on the same liberal and gentlemanly grounds he had put it, and endeavour to use your influence (if you have any) to stay the further proceedings on this charge, by sending up a servant to the party or parties, as you might think most advisable, before three o'clock to-morrow—it is now nearly six.Ever yours,W. H. Fremantle.
Pall Mall, March 16, 1821.
My dear Lord,
I am hurried to death by the time, and therefore must make my relation short I endeavoured to meet the Duke yesterday morning; but failing in this, I enclosed your note to me, saying I owed it to him not to withhold such information for hisprivate ear, and desiring him to send me back your note. He sent it back in half an hour, with the enclosed note from himself. This morning he begged to see me; and being on a Committee, and not released till four o'clock, I have only at this moment come from him at his office.
He entered into a very full discussion of the whole business; and, first and foremost, declared in most positive and unequivocal terms, that he was perfectly innocent of the charge imputed to him, and that, fortunately, he had been so guarded in his whole proceedings throughout this disagreeable quarrel between Lord W—— and his wife, that he should be enabled most fully and clearly to rebut and destroy any charge ... that might be brought against him. But feeling this, however, very strongly, he had been to Lord C—— this morning; had consulted with him upon it; and, for the sake of the family, he thought it most essential, and most highly desirable, if possible, to prevent Lord W—— from bringing the charge forward. He considered Lord W——'s object to be founded exclusively on a wish to blacken her character, and to enable him to come forward with more effect in his defence (which he must make) in the case in which he is involved with Mr. W——; that however much he might blacken her in the first instance, it would ultimately recoil on himself, and therefore it was a real object to stop the further proceedings, if possible; that he (the Duke) had done everything in his power to reconcile the differences throughout, and that such must appear if Lord W—— persisted. These were the grounds on which, as a gentleman (without adverting to a personal consideration), he thinks he ought to advise that a stop should be put to W——'s further prosecution of this charge against his wife. Thehabeas corpushas been demanded, and must be discussed to-morrow, atthreeo'clock, in the Chancellor's private chamber; but in this discussion, if Lord W—— persists, this business must be gone into. The great object, therefore, that the Duke would recommend is, that you should, if you think proper, before that time communicate by a special messenger to W——, or to the individual through whom you gained your information, and endeavour to persuade him (the Duke being so completely armed against such a charge, and so prepared to refute it ultimately), that it could only for a moment serve his purpose, but in the end would damage his case. Indeed, I am persuaded, from what he said, that if W—— abandoned this attack on his wife, there would be little doubt that Mr. W—— would ultimately give way, and not call him up for his defence. In the many communications which W—— has had with the Duke, he has, at various times, not only personally, but by letter, absolved the Duke from all suspicion on his part of criminality ... and the Duke, throughout all these transactions and communications which he has had with Lady W——, has uniformly and constantly consulted and advised with her brother, Lord C——, upon them.
I have written to you, therefore, as I assured the Duke I would do, and at his desire, and have ventured to say that I was quite sure you would view the circumstance on the same liberal and gentlemanly grounds he had put it, and endeavour to use your influence (if you have any) to stay the further proceedings on this charge, by sending up a servant to the party or parties, as you might think most advisable, before three o'clock to-morrow—it is now nearly six.
Ever yours,
W. H. Fremantle.
MR. CHARLES W. WYNN TO THE MARQUIS OF BUCKINGHAM.
My dear B——,The whole of the third volume of the "Notice des Manuscrits de la Bibliothèque du Roi" is occupied with an account of the MSS. relative to the proceedings against Joan of Arc. There is an account of one which appears to be a duplicate of yours, though I think the number of pages is less, and every page is mentioned to be verified by the signatures of the notaries, who are called Terrebone and Dionysius Comitis, and which is mentioned to be lettered "Processus Justificationis Joannæ d'Arc." Probably this with the date may be the best for your book. I take for granted you have the "Notice des Manuscrits" at Stowe; and as the account is a very detailed one, it will be very desirable to compare your MS. with it. Perhaps, however, this may be best done in town.We only go into the Committee to-daypro formâ, in order to reprint and then recommit for discussion on Wednesday. The oath is now to be a new one, embodying the explanation, which is thought better than adhering to the old one, for which I am rather sorry. Everything looks favourably. Walter Burrell, Sir Hussey Vivian, Curteis of Sussex, Fox Lane, have all declared their intentions of not voting in the Committee, and we hope others may follow the example; but it is a period of nervous suspense. The debate on Friday was one of great forbearance, and it is difficult to say whether Peel most spared Mackintosh—or Canning, Peel. Canning stated that there was as great a community of sentiment between Peel and himself as could well subsist between public men. His speech and Wilberforce's were both uncommonly good.I had some conversation with Plunket on Saturday about his views, and I am sorry to find him most disinclined—indeed, I might say almost resolved—against taking any office which would fix him in England, and looking only to the Attorney-Generalship and Great Seal of Ireland, but thinking that he could, while in the former office, give considerable attendance in the House of Commons.He appeared to feel that there was no longer any obstacle to his taking office under the present Government, as now constituted, and to be well disposed to accept the offer of the Attorney-Generalship of Ireland whenever they can make room for him, though he would much prefer coming in with us.Ever affectionately yours,C. W. W.
My dear B——,
The whole of the third volume of the "Notice des Manuscrits de la Bibliothèque du Roi" is occupied with an account of the MSS. relative to the proceedings against Joan of Arc. There is an account of one which appears to be a duplicate of yours, though I think the number of pages is less, and every page is mentioned to be verified by the signatures of the notaries, who are called Terrebone and Dionysius Comitis, and which is mentioned to be lettered "Processus Justificationis Joannæ d'Arc." Probably this with the date may be the best for your book. I take for granted you have the "Notice des Manuscrits" at Stowe; and as the account is a very detailed one, it will be very desirable to compare your MS. with it. Perhaps, however, this may be best done in town.
We only go into the Committee to-daypro formâ, in order to reprint and then recommit for discussion on Wednesday. The oath is now to be a new one, embodying the explanation, which is thought better than adhering to the old one, for which I am rather sorry. Everything looks favourably. Walter Burrell, Sir Hussey Vivian, Curteis of Sussex, Fox Lane, have all declared their intentions of not voting in the Committee, and we hope others may follow the example; but it is a period of nervous suspense. The debate on Friday was one of great forbearance, and it is difficult to say whether Peel most spared Mackintosh—or Canning, Peel. Canning stated that there was as great a community of sentiment between Peel and himself as could well subsist between public men. His speech and Wilberforce's were both uncommonly good.
I had some conversation with Plunket on Saturday about his views, and I am sorry to find him most disinclined—indeed, I might say almost resolved—against taking any office which would fix him in England, and looking only to the Attorney-Generalship and Great Seal of Ireland, but thinking that he could, while in the former office, give considerable attendance in the House of Commons.
He appeared to feel that there was no longer any obstacle to his taking office under the present Government, as now constituted, and to be well disposed to accept the offer of the Attorney-Generalship of Ireland whenever they can make room for him, though he would much prefer coming in with us.
Ever affectionately yours,
C. W. W.
MR. W. H. FREMANTLE TO THE MARQUIS OF BUCKINGHAM.
Stanhope Street, March 20, 1821.My dear Lord,I have seen the Duke, who desired me to express to you his very sincere thanks for the trouble you have taken in the subject of this detestable quarrel of the W——s. He assured me he would never mention your name to any human being; and you may rest assured that no letter to me shall ever go out of my hands.With regard to leaving the whole matter in dispute to the arbitration of mutual friends, the Duke says there is no difficulty whatever in procuring Lady W——'s consent to it; she has repeatedly offered it, and is now ready to abide by such a reference. With regard to the child, this is a subject that must be decided by the Court, and cannot, and ought not, to form a part of the reference. If the father is entitled to take his child, he will, of course, have it; and there seems to be no doubt on this point. The real question of reference would be the litigation which is now carrying on between Lord W—— and Mr. W——, and the pecuniary arrangements and formal separation of the parties.The Duke says, that, with regard to the dispute between Lord W—— and Mr. W——, it stands independent of all other subjects; and as Lord W—— is now compelled to put in his answer (the rule being made absolute), and as the case must ultimately be most injurious and disgraceful in all its bearings to Lord W—— (as it affects his conduct to Mr. W——), he thinks the best advice to be given to Lord W——, and the best course for him to follow, would be for him to write a letter to Mr. W——, saying that though he still condemns, and shall never cease to condemn, the injurious manner in which Mr. W——'s counsel had thought proper and been advised to treat him in his pleadings, yet he was sorry for the conduct he had adopted to Mr. W—— in consequence thereof, and was ready to offer his apology. This would satisfy W——, and stop his further proceedings, and thus end this part of the business. The second consideration—namely, the separation and allowance—this must now, of course, be decided, and under some strict and clear covenant; and which, undoubtedly, could best be done by arbitration of mutual friends. Lord C—— would guarantee any pledge or engagement on the part of his sister, and the same could be done on the part of Lord W——. Indeed, if she were disposed to make difficulties, her family would urge her to it. The Duke is quite satisfied that she would now most willingly do what she has repeatedly offered—namely, to decide the question by a reference to friends; and to show how far he has before effected this object, he put into my hands the enclosed, which was the terms agreed to in 1819 by both parties, and which the Duke is convinced, if they had been acted upon, Lord W—— would now have been in his wife's bed. Of course, that part which relates to their residence in the same house is now gone by, and it must be separation; but the great object is, if possible, to separate, by a distinct arrangement, the dispute with W——. This is the part that affects Lord W—— the most; and it is in order to lessen the heavy censure that would fall on him by the exposure ofall his conducttowards Mr. W——, that he now seeks to ... to mingle the Duke in the history. Lady W—— cannot proceed in this cause if W—— is satisfied, for she cannot plead or maintain his case for him.Nothing of importance occurred in Court on Saturday. The Lord Chancellor has got rid of it, and turned it over to Judge Dallas, who requires more time; so there is now time for friends to interfere, if it can be done with effect.You will understand the possession of the child. The Duke has nothing to do with it. Lord W—— has her now with him. Ahabeas corpushas been moved, and the law must, of course, decide this. You will be so good as to return the Duke's letter, as he desired me to let him have it again. He really seems much obliged to you for the interest you have taken about it, and I think is much more at ease on the subject than he appeared to be on Friday. He knows forcertainthat Lord N—— did advise Lord W—— on the question of Mr. W——.Believe me, ever most truly yours,W. H. Fremantle.
Stanhope Street, March 20, 1821.
My dear Lord,
I have seen the Duke, who desired me to express to you his very sincere thanks for the trouble you have taken in the subject of this detestable quarrel of the W——s. He assured me he would never mention your name to any human being; and you may rest assured that no letter to me shall ever go out of my hands.
With regard to leaving the whole matter in dispute to the arbitration of mutual friends, the Duke says there is no difficulty whatever in procuring Lady W——'s consent to it; she has repeatedly offered it, and is now ready to abide by such a reference. With regard to the child, this is a subject that must be decided by the Court, and cannot, and ought not, to form a part of the reference. If the father is entitled to take his child, he will, of course, have it; and there seems to be no doubt on this point. The real question of reference would be the litigation which is now carrying on between Lord W—— and Mr. W——, and the pecuniary arrangements and formal separation of the parties.
The Duke says, that, with regard to the dispute between Lord W—— and Mr. W——, it stands independent of all other subjects; and as Lord W—— is now compelled to put in his answer (the rule being made absolute), and as the case must ultimately be most injurious and disgraceful in all its bearings to Lord W—— (as it affects his conduct to Mr. W——), he thinks the best advice to be given to Lord W——, and the best course for him to follow, would be for him to write a letter to Mr. W——, saying that though he still condemns, and shall never cease to condemn, the injurious manner in which Mr. W——'s counsel had thought proper and been advised to treat him in his pleadings, yet he was sorry for the conduct he had adopted to Mr. W—— in consequence thereof, and was ready to offer his apology. This would satisfy W——, and stop his further proceedings, and thus end this part of the business. The second consideration—namely, the separation and allowance—this must now, of course, be decided, and under some strict and clear covenant; and which, undoubtedly, could best be done by arbitration of mutual friends. Lord C—— would guarantee any pledge or engagement on the part of his sister, and the same could be done on the part of Lord W——. Indeed, if she were disposed to make difficulties, her family would urge her to it. The Duke is quite satisfied that she would now most willingly do what she has repeatedly offered—namely, to decide the question by a reference to friends; and to show how far he has before effected this object, he put into my hands the enclosed, which was the terms agreed to in 1819 by both parties, and which the Duke is convinced, if they had been acted upon, Lord W—— would now have been in his wife's bed. Of course, that part which relates to their residence in the same house is now gone by, and it must be separation; but the great object is, if possible, to separate, by a distinct arrangement, the dispute with W——. This is the part that affects Lord W—— the most; and it is in order to lessen the heavy censure that would fall on him by the exposure ofall his conducttowards Mr. W——, that he now seeks to ... to mingle the Duke in the history. Lady W—— cannot proceed in this cause if W—— is satisfied, for she cannot plead or maintain his case for him.
Nothing of importance occurred in Court on Saturday. The Lord Chancellor has got rid of it, and turned it over to Judge Dallas, who requires more time; so there is now time for friends to interfere, if it can be done with effect.
You will understand the possession of the child. The Duke has nothing to do with it. Lord W—— has her now with him. Ahabeas corpushas been moved, and the law must, of course, decide this. You will be so good as to return the Duke's letter, as he desired me to let him have it again. He really seems much obliged to you for the interest you have taken about it, and I think is much more at ease on the subject than he appeared to be on Friday. He knows forcertainthat Lord N—— did advise Lord W—— on the question of Mr. W——.
Believe me, ever most truly yours,
W. H. Fremantle.
The Catholic Belief Bill continued to be warmly discussed in Parliament, and for a time almost excluded all other subjects of interest from public attention.
MR. W. H. FREMANTLE TO THE MARQUIS OF BUCKINGHAM.
House of Commons, Four o'clock.I saw the Duke yesterday, who is truly thankful to you for the interest and concern you take in the business. He is fully sensible of the advantage on every ground to arbitrate in this matter, though he treats with indignation the attempt to fix a guilt on him. He states, in the most solemn manner, to me—and really in such a manner as I cannot for a moment disbelieve—that he is utterly innocent of the imputed charge; that it is a diabolical and infamous conspiracy, which any man may be liable to; and that if it proceeds, it will be necessary to expose and punish; that it is utterly impossible, without fraud and falsehood of the grossest kind, to bring home to him such a crime. Saying all this, he, however, admits with you the effect of such a charge on his character, until it is fully confuted and exposed.With regard to the first proposition coming from Lady W——, it would be impossible for him or any one to recommend her in the first instance to stay proceedings, or to recommend Mr. W—— to do so: it would be admitting her guilt, which no one could advise her to do. The Duke is satisfied that she is ready to leave the whole matter to reference, and I have no doubt I shall have a communication from Lord C—— to that effect to-morrow; and if a reference is made on the whole subject—namely, the separation, and the income to be allowed—such reference and arrangement would naturally have the ultimate effect of putting an end to all other proceedings. But it is impossible for her, in the first instance, to make this a preliminary engagement, or for him to recommend such a step; it would be admitting a ground for the charge, which he knows to be most foul and false as it concerns him; and it would be a confession on her part of her guilt. It strikes me in the same point of view; and on this ground, also, the Duke cannot be one of the referees. You would be the best person, and the one most desirable to all parties connected with her, on the part of Lord W——; and she would be to name one equally approved by you and Lord W——. As soon as I have seen Lord C——, who comes to town to-day, I will let you know his decision and authority.Ever most truly yours,W. H. Fremantle.We are in the greatest anxiety about the division to-night. The best calculators say we shall gain it by four: this is too close. No fresh news from Naples. The repulse of the 7th, with great confusion, is fully believed. Canning certainly goes back to Paris after Lambton's motion; he gives this out everywhere. The rumour rather gains ground of your going to Ireland; but I don't know from any authority.
House of Commons, Four o'clock.
I saw the Duke yesterday, who is truly thankful to you for the interest and concern you take in the business. He is fully sensible of the advantage on every ground to arbitrate in this matter, though he treats with indignation the attempt to fix a guilt on him. He states, in the most solemn manner, to me—and really in such a manner as I cannot for a moment disbelieve—that he is utterly innocent of the imputed charge; that it is a diabolical and infamous conspiracy, which any man may be liable to; and that if it proceeds, it will be necessary to expose and punish; that it is utterly impossible, without fraud and falsehood of the grossest kind, to bring home to him such a crime. Saying all this, he, however, admits with you the effect of such a charge on his character, until it is fully confuted and exposed.
With regard to the first proposition coming from Lady W——, it would be impossible for him or any one to recommend her in the first instance to stay proceedings, or to recommend Mr. W—— to do so: it would be admitting her guilt, which no one could advise her to do. The Duke is satisfied that she is ready to leave the whole matter to reference, and I have no doubt I shall have a communication from Lord C—— to that effect to-morrow; and if a reference is made on the whole subject—namely, the separation, and the income to be allowed—such reference and arrangement would naturally have the ultimate effect of putting an end to all other proceedings. But it is impossible for her, in the first instance, to make this a preliminary engagement, or for him to recommend such a step; it would be admitting a ground for the charge, which he knows to be most foul and false as it concerns him; and it would be a confession on her part of her guilt. It strikes me in the same point of view; and on this ground, also, the Duke cannot be one of the referees. You would be the best person, and the one most desirable to all parties connected with her, on the part of Lord W——; and she would be to name one equally approved by you and Lord W——. As soon as I have seen Lord C——, who comes to town to-day, I will let you know his decision and authority.
Ever most truly yours,
W. H. Fremantle.
We are in the greatest anxiety about the division to-night. The best calculators say we shall gain it by four: this is too close. No fresh news from Naples. The repulse of the 7th, with great confusion, is fully believed. Canning certainly goes back to Paris after Lambton's motion; he gives this out everywhere. The rumour rather gains ground of your going to Ireland; but I don't know from any authority.
MR. W. H. FREMANTLE TO THE MARQUIS OF BUCKINGHAM.
House of Commons, Four o'clock.My dear Lord,I got your letter this morning, and had previously received one yesterday evening from the Duke ... which I enclose you. It is unnecessary, therefore, for me to stir on the subject, or to make a further observation, till you have read the enclosed, and have given me your opinion upon it, and what is the determination of Lord W—— regarding the arbitration. I can only, however, add my opinion, that it will be utterly impossible to make a previous engagement to withdraw the proceedings now pending. They are, in fact, deferred; and the result of an arbitration amicably concluded would be the withdrawing of all questions now before the Courts of Law.Nothing can have been more successful than the whole proceedings on the Catholic Bill; and there is no doubt but that the Security Bill will also pass rapidly through the House. This will naturally bring you to town, to share in the support of it through the House of Lords.—I have just heard from Mr. Holmes (who said he knew the fact), that a counter-revolution had taken place at Naples: the mob had risen—disarmed the troops—spiked the guns—turned the Parliament out of doors—proclaimed the Regent, Viceroy—and called for the King's return. General Pepe had not been found, and most of his army had abandoned him. The person left in command of the troops at Naples was the first to turn tail. The cry was now, the old Constitution!I don't know anything further to tell you. Theold Courtis terribly dismayed by the success of the Catholic Bill, and I believe put very little trust in the King's determination to resist it. The whole thing in the Lords depends onhisdecision, and upon the conduct of Lord Liverpool; if he does not make aMinisterialbusiness of it, there are great hopes it will be carried.Ever most truly yours,W. H. Fremantle.
House of Commons, Four o'clock.
My dear Lord,
I got your letter this morning, and had previously received one yesterday evening from the Duke ... which I enclose you. It is unnecessary, therefore, for me to stir on the subject, or to make a further observation, till you have read the enclosed, and have given me your opinion upon it, and what is the determination of Lord W—— regarding the arbitration. I can only, however, add my opinion, that it will be utterly impossible to make a previous engagement to withdraw the proceedings now pending. They are, in fact, deferred; and the result of an arbitration amicably concluded would be the withdrawing of all questions now before the Courts of Law.
Nothing can have been more successful than the whole proceedings on the Catholic Bill; and there is no doubt but that the Security Bill will also pass rapidly through the House. This will naturally bring you to town, to share in the support of it through the House of Lords.—I have just heard from Mr. Holmes (who said he knew the fact), that a counter-revolution had taken place at Naples: the mob had risen—disarmed the troops—spiked the guns—turned the Parliament out of doors—proclaimed the Regent, Viceroy—and called for the King's return. General Pepe had not been found, and most of his army had abandoned him. The person left in command of the troops at Naples was the first to turn tail. The cry was now, the old Constitution!
I don't know anything further to tell you. Theold Courtis terribly dismayed by the success of the Catholic Bill, and I believe put very little trust in the King's determination to resist it. The whole thing in the Lords depends onhisdecision, and upon the conduct of Lord Liverpool; if he does not make aMinisterialbusiness of it, there are great hopes it will be carried.
Ever most truly yours,
W. H. Fremantle.
DR. PHILLIMORE TO THE MARQUIS OF BUCKINGHAM.
Whitehall, March 24.My dear Lord,Plunket received by yesterday's post intelligence that his wife was dying, and consequently set out immediately for Ireland. In spite of this great disadvantage, we got through the first clause of the Bill (that relative to the Oath of Supremacy), and gained three upon the division more than we had on the second reading, the numbers being 230 to 216. I think they will hardly make a fight about Transubstantiation; but they will push all their strength on the exclusion from Parliament, which Bankes will move on Monday. I think the Bill will pass the House of Commons. I believe Lord Duncannon and Mr. Holmes are agreed that we should have a majority of 38, if the whole House were to attend. The notion is that Lord Sidmouth, Vansittart, and B. Bathurst are to go out if the Bill is carried. Peel is clearly paving the way for a junction with Government, even though the Bill should pass; and Canning as clearly holding out that there can be no obstacle in the way of his sitting in the same Cabinet with Peel. Peel has not gained ground by his conduct in the business; I should say he has lost rather in the estimation of the House.I sent your Lordship a copy of the Bill on the day it was reprinted; the alteration was made because it appeared that doubtful persons were less dissatisfied with it than with the explanation.Believe me,Your Lordship's obliged and faithful,Joseph Phillimore.
Whitehall, March 24.
My dear Lord,
Plunket received by yesterday's post intelligence that his wife was dying, and consequently set out immediately for Ireland. In spite of this great disadvantage, we got through the first clause of the Bill (that relative to the Oath of Supremacy), and gained three upon the division more than we had on the second reading, the numbers being 230 to 216. I think they will hardly make a fight about Transubstantiation; but they will push all their strength on the exclusion from Parliament, which Bankes will move on Monday. I think the Bill will pass the House of Commons. I believe Lord Duncannon and Mr. Holmes are agreed that we should have a majority of 38, if the whole House were to attend. The notion is that Lord Sidmouth, Vansittart, and B. Bathurst are to go out if the Bill is carried. Peel is clearly paving the way for a junction with Government, even though the Bill should pass; and Canning as clearly holding out that there can be no obstacle in the way of his sitting in the same Cabinet with Peel. Peel has not gained ground by his conduct in the business; I should say he has lost rather in the estimation of the House.
I sent your Lordship a copy of the Bill on the day it was reprinted; the alteration was made because it appeared that doubtful persons were less dissatisfied with it than with the explanation.
Believe me,
Your Lordship's obliged and faithful,
Joseph Phillimore.
MR. C. W. WYNN TO THE MARQUIS OF BUCKINGHAM.
Saturday.My dear B——,Notwithstanding the great loss which we sustained last night from the absence of poor Plunket, who set off for Ireland with little hope of finding his wife alive, we made a very good figure last night. Castlereagh spoke better than I ever heard him. You will see that your suggestion of adding some words to exclude all mental reservation is adopted—that is to say, both Phillimore and Castlereagh last night stated the willingness of the promoters of the Bill to admit them, if any person thought it desirable to move their insertion. Burrell, notwithstanding what he had said, came and voted against us; but Curteis and Fox Lane, instead of only staying away, voted with us. Davies Gilbert did not vote, but is so completely turned that I have strong hopes of his vote on Monday. We are also to have Denman, and I believe Abraham Moore, from the Circuits; W. Pole, who was ill; Dennis Browne, and Sir Gerard Noel, who were absent. Castlereagh has also promised to insist on checking the activity of Holmes, who has been quite indefatigable in the use of every means, fair and foul, to induce members to vote against us. Lord Fife has been dismissed from the Bedchamber, in consequence of his vote on the Malt Tax, and Lord Lovaine is to succeed him.What passed on that occasion is only a confirmation of the truth of the Duke of Wellington's view of the state of administration, and of the hollowness of their support on any question which is not vital. I suppose they now look to replace the Doctor and Van. by Peel and Canning, who are evidently extremely disposed to return together.I agree with you in thinking the Bill, as it originally stood, with the explanation of the oath, was preferable to its present form; buton fait ce qu'on peutandnon ce qu'on veut. The best way of all would be to make the oath now proposed general for Protestants and Catholics, but this, I fear, is impossible.I fear that we shall be all Monday on the question of admissibility to Parliament, and must reserve the Privy Council and the Judges for Tuesday.It is intended to add the second Bill in the shape of clauses to the first. I suppose we can hardly hope to carry it up to your House till Monday, the 2nd. As to the affairs of the South, my view very closely concurs with yours.I will make some inquiry about the office of Lord Chancellor of Ireland before I again write; but I do not myself feel any alarm at the exercise of visitatorial or any other powerin curiaby a Catholic, and think, indeed, it might more safely be lodged in his hands than in those of an Unitarian or bigoted Presbyterian, who might both now hold it.Believe me, ever most truly yours,C. Williams Wynn.
Saturday.
My dear B——,
Notwithstanding the great loss which we sustained last night from the absence of poor Plunket, who set off for Ireland with little hope of finding his wife alive, we made a very good figure last night. Castlereagh spoke better than I ever heard him. You will see that your suggestion of adding some words to exclude all mental reservation is adopted—that is to say, both Phillimore and Castlereagh last night stated the willingness of the promoters of the Bill to admit them, if any person thought it desirable to move their insertion. Burrell, notwithstanding what he had said, came and voted against us; but Curteis and Fox Lane, instead of only staying away, voted with us. Davies Gilbert did not vote, but is so completely turned that I have strong hopes of his vote on Monday. We are also to have Denman, and I believe Abraham Moore, from the Circuits; W. Pole, who was ill; Dennis Browne, and Sir Gerard Noel, who were absent. Castlereagh has also promised to insist on checking the activity of Holmes, who has been quite indefatigable in the use of every means, fair and foul, to induce members to vote against us. Lord Fife has been dismissed from the Bedchamber, in consequence of his vote on the Malt Tax, and Lord Lovaine is to succeed him.
What passed on that occasion is only a confirmation of the truth of the Duke of Wellington's view of the state of administration, and of the hollowness of their support on any question which is not vital. I suppose they now look to replace the Doctor and Van. by Peel and Canning, who are evidently extremely disposed to return together.
I agree with you in thinking the Bill, as it originally stood, with the explanation of the oath, was preferable to its present form; buton fait ce qu'on peutandnon ce qu'on veut. The best way of all would be to make the oath now proposed general for Protestants and Catholics, but this, I fear, is impossible.
I fear that we shall be all Monday on the question of admissibility to Parliament, and must reserve the Privy Council and the Judges for Tuesday.
It is intended to add the second Bill in the shape of clauses to the first. I suppose we can hardly hope to carry it up to your House till Monday, the 2nd. As to the affairs of the South, my view very closely concurs with yours.
I will make some inquiry about the office of Lord Chancellor of Ireland before I again write; but I do not myself feel any alarm at the exercise of visitatorial or any other powerin curiaby a Catholic, and think, indeed, it might more safely be lodged in his hands than in those of an Unitarian or bigoted Presbyterian, who might both now hold it.
Believe me, ever most truly yours,
C. Williams Wynn.
More than one communication printed in this volume has indicated that the Government were anxious to secure the services of the leading members of the Grenville party. It will be seen that the former became more and more conscious of the desirableness of such a junction.
THE DUKE OF WELLINGTON TO THE MARQUIS OF BUCKINGHAM.
London, March 27, 1821.My dear Lord Buckingham,I have received your letter; and you may rely upon it, that there is no man more desirous than I am of strengthening the connexion between your family and the Government. I think that the services which you have, upon principle, rendered to them are of a nature to give you every claim to their consideration; and I am very much mistaken if this feeling is not common to all those at present forming the Administration.I shall be very happy in being instrumental in forwarding any wish of yours; and I will so conduct myself as not to involve you in anything.Believe me, ever yours most sincerely,Wellington.
London, March 27, 1821.
My dear Lord Buckingham,
I have received your letter; and you may rely upon it, that there is no man more desirous than I am of strengthening the connexion between your family and the Government. I think that the services which you have, upon principle, rendered to them are of a nature to give you every claim to their consideration; and I am very much mistaken if this feeling is not common to all those at present forming the Administration.
I shall be very happy in being instrumental in forwarding any wish of yours; and I will so conduct myself as not to involve you in anything.
Believe me, ever yours most sincerely,
Wellington.
DR. PHILLIMORE TO THE MARQUIS OF BUCKINGHAM.
Doctors' Commons, March 29, 1821.My dear Lord,I should have sent your Lordship yesterday the result of Tuesday's debate, but that I was shut up all the morning with Sir John Newportand Co., on the subject of the clauses relating to the securities. You will perceive that several inaccuracies are corrected; and amongst other amendments, I believe most of the alterations you suggested have been introduced—all, at least, that we considered, under existing circumstances, to be advisable.We got through all the clauses last night, upon the whole, very triumphantly; but Mr. Hutchinson opened a broadside upon us, which in the earlier stages of the Bill might have sunk the whole concern—inasmuch as he characterized the second Bill (now consolidated with the first) as a Bill of pains, penalties, degradation, &c., imposed on the Roman Catholic clergy. The attack, however, recoiled upon the promoter of it, and the discussion was so conducted as to assist the Bill. The debate is exceedingly ill given in all the papers I have seen, more especially as it omits the speeches of three Irish county members, who rose in succession, and said they had every reason to believe the measure was very agreeable to the Roman Catholics in the counties they represented—Butler, the member for the county of Kilkenny (which, I believe, is intensely Catholic), being one. None of the Opposition ultras would attend last night.The Report is to be brought up to-day, and the Bill to be read a third time on Monday. They have abandoned all idea of opposing the bringing up of the Report; but Croker, I understand, in spite of all that can be said to deter him, persists in his intention of moving that a provision shall be inserted in the Bill for the Roman Catholic clergy. A great exertion is to be made against us for the division on the third reading, but I think we shall succeed; we had seven votes shut out on the clause relating to Parliament, which was most unfortunate.I am now going to meet Sir John Newport, at Lord Castlereagh's, to consider of the propriety of some alterations which have been suggested as expedient to be made on bringing up the Report. Lord Castlereaghnowseems quite in earnest, and I think his having this meeting at his house is a proof of it; he was very pressing with me to attend it.The Bill will be reprinted; and as soon as it is distributed I will send a copy to Avington, where I shall presume you continue till I hear to the contrary.Believe me, my dear Lord,Your Lordship's obliged and faithful,Joseph Phillimore.
Doctors' Commons, March 29, 1821.
My dear Lord,
I should have sent your Lordship yesterday the result of Tuesday's debate, but that I was shut up all the morning with Sir John Newportand Co., on the subject of the clauses relating to the securities. You will perceive that several inaccuracies are corrected; and amongst other amendments, I believe most of the alterations you suggested have been introduced—all, at least, that we considered, under existing circumstances, to be advisable.
We got through all the clauses last night, upon the whole, very triumphantly; but Mr. Hutchinson opened a broadside upon us, which in the earlier stages of the Bill might have sunk the whole concern—inasmuch as he characterized the second Bill (now consolidated with the first) as a Bill of pains, penalties, degradation, &c., imposed on the Roman Catholic clergy. The attack, however, recoiled upon the promoter of it, and the discussion was so conducted as to assist the Bill. The debate is exceedingly ill given in all the papers I have seen, more especially as it omits the speeches of three Irish county members, who rose in succession, and said they had every reason to believe the measure was very agreeable to the Roman Catholics in the counties they represented—Butler, the member for the county of Kilkenny (which, I believe, is intensely Catholic), being one. None of the Opposition ultras would attend last night.
The Report is to be brought up to-day, and the Bill to be read a third time on Monday. They have abandoned all idea of opposing the bringing up of the Report; but Croker, I understand, in spite of all that can be said to deter him, persists in his intention of moving that a provision shall be inserted in the Bill for the Roman Catholic clergy. A great exertion is to be made against us for the division on the third reading, but I think we shall succeed; we had seven votes shut out on the clause relating to Parliament, which was most unfortunate.
I am now going to meet Sir John Newport, at Lord Castlereagh's, to consider of the propriety of some alterations which have been suggested as expedient to be made on bringing up the Report. Lord Castlereaghnowseems quite in earnest, and I think his having this meeting at his house is a proof of it; he was very pressing with me to attend it.
The Bill will be reprinted; and as soon as it is distributed I will send a copy to Avington, where I shall presume you continue till I hear to the contrary.
Believe me, my dear Lord,
Your Lordship's obliged and faithful,
Joseph Phillimore.
THE DUKE OF WELLINGTON TO THE MARQUIS OF BUCKINGHAM.
London, March 30, 1821.My dear Lord Buckingham,Fremantle has just come in to me, and has informed me that you understood that part of a late letter I had written to him, referred to you. I assure you that you are quite mistaken. It could not refer to you.I think I have reason to believe that Lord W—— himself does not believe in the truth of the charges he thinks proper to make against me. I may be mistaken; but that is my opinion, and that was the opinion which, as well as I recollect, I intended to convey, and no other; and even this opinion I intended to convey in terms as polite, guarded, and little offensive to anybody as possible.Pray don't think that I could mean to refer to you in any manner.And believe me, ever yours most sincerely,Wellington.
London, March 30, 1821.
My dear Lord Buckingham,
Fremantle has just come in to me, and has informed me that you understood that part of a late letter I had written to him, referred to you. I assure you that you are quite mistaken. It could not refer to you.
I think I have reason to believe that Lord W—— himself does not believe in the truth of the charges he thinks proper to make against me. I may be mistaken; but that is my opinion, and that was the opinion which, as well as I recollect, I intended to convey, and no other; and even this opinion I intended to convey in terms as polite, guarded, and little offensive to anybody as possible.
Pray don't think that I could mean to refer to you in any manner.
And believe me, ever yours most sincerely,
Wellington.
MR. W. H. FREMANTLE TO THE MARQUIS OF BUCKINGHAM.
Stanhope Street, March 30, 1821.You will see, by the enclosed, how totally you mistook the Duke's meaning in the last paragraph of his letter to me of the 27th. He was much surprised at it, and extremely distressed; and after having conversed for some time on the subject, and desired me to explain the matter to you, he ended in saying—"I think it would be more satisfactory to Lord B—— that I should write him a note, which I will do, and give to you to enclose to him." This he accordingly did. With regard to the mode of referring it, he is to see Lord C——, who will write to me, stating distinctly the grounds and extent to which arbitration shall go. I need say no more, therefore, on this subject, particularly as we shall meet so soon, and probably before I hear from Lord C——.A confirmation is arrived of the counter-revolution both at Naples and Turin. At the former, the Prince Regent, the army, and the people are united; they have dissolved the Parliament, pronounced a declaration in favour of the old Constitution, and sent a deputation with a submission to the King, and a supplication for his resumption of his dominion. At Turin, Prince Carignan has put himself at the head of some troops, has resigned the Regency, and marched to join a corps which had been assembled in favour of the King; and the cry at Turin and throughout Piedmont was for the return of the King, and the resumption of the old order of things. Thus ends, I hope, and as it is believed, the whole of these revolutionary attempts, which might have embroiled all Europe.The impression gains ground in favour of the Catholic question in the House of Lords. I asked the Duke of W—— what he thought would be the result; and he said, "We think it will be carried." I said it would depend much on the King; he replied, "We hear he is for it." I added, "Much also must depend on Lord Liverpool's conduct; if he acts as an individual, it will have little effect, compared to any canvass as a Minister." He answered, "The latter is impossible; our Cabinet could not allow such a thing; his influence, as a private [individual], considering his character, situation, &c., must have great weight, but no further; perhaps those who oppose it will not be heard, as in the House of Commons." I give you nearly word for word as he said it; and I should judge, from the tenor of his words and manner, that he really thinks it would be carried. By-the-bye, he added, "I hear Lady Conyngham supports it, which is a great thing."I am hurried for time, so I wont add more. We have no fear for the division on Monday; I will see you in the evening, in my way from the House.Ever truly yours,W. H. F.
Stanhope Street, March 30, 1821.
You will see, by the enclosed, how totally you mistook the Duke's meaning in the last paragraph of his letter to me of the 27th. He was much surprised at it, and extremely distressed; and after having conversed for some time on the subject, and desired me to explain the matter to you, he ended in saying—"I think it would be more satisfactory to Lord B—— that I should write him a note, which I will do, and give to you to enclose to him." This he accordingly did. With regard to the mode of referring it, he is to see Lord C——, who will write to me, stating distinctly the grounds and extent to which arbitration shall go. I need say no more, therefore, on this subject, particularly as we shall meet so soon, and probably before I hear from Lord C——.
A confirmation is arrived of the counter-revolution both at Naples and Turin. At the former, the Prince Regent, the army, and the people are united; they have dissolved the Parliament, pronounced a declaration in favour of the old Constitution, and sent a deputation with a submission to the King, and a supplication for his resumption of his dominion. At Turin, Prince Carignan has put himself at the head of some troops, has resigned the Regency, and marched to join a corps which had been assembled in favour of the King; and the cry at Turin and throughout Piedmont was for the return of the King, and the resumption of the old order of things. Thus ends, I hope, and as it is believed, the whole of these revolutionary attempts, which might have embroiled all Europe.
The impression gains ground in favour of the Catholic question in the House of Lords. I asked the Duke of W—— what he thought would be the result; and he said, "We think it will be carried." I said it would depend much on the King; he replied, "We hear he is for it." I added, "Much also must depend on Lord Liverpool's conduct; if he acts as an individual, it will have little effect, compared to any canvass as a Minister." He answered, "The latter is impossible; our Cabinet could not allow such a thing; his influence, as a private [individual], considering his character, situation, &c., must have great weight, but no further; perhaps those who oppose it will not be heard, as in the House of Commons." I give you nearly word for word as he said it; and I should judge, from the tenor of his words and manner, that he really thinks it would be carried. By-the-bye, he added, "I hear Lady Conyngham supports it, which is a great thing."
I am hurried for time, so I wont add more. We have no fear for the division on Monday; I will see you in the evening, in my way from the House.
Ever truly yours,
W. H. F.
THE DUKE OF WELLINGTON TO THE MARQUIS OF BUCKINGHAM.
London, March 30, 1821.My dear Lord Buckingham,Since I wrote to you last, I have had some conversation with those likely to carry into execution the object you have in view; and I have found them exactly in the disposition in which I told you in my last I expected to find them. Of course, in the existing state of the measure in Parliament, and particularly as no design for carrying it into execution can yet be in discussion, or in the contemplation of more than a few, no decision can have been taken. But I am certain that the disposition to which I have above referred exists; and I think it might be desirable that you should let me know whether you have any, and what, views for your family, or any of the friends attached to you.Believe me, ever yours most sincerely,Wellington.
London, March 30, 1821.
My dear Lord Buckingham,
Since I wrote to you last, I have had some conversation with those likely to carry into execution the object you have in view; and I have found them exactly in the disposition in which I told you in my last I expected to find them. Of course, in the existing state of the measure in Parliament, and particularly as no design for carrying it into execution can yet be in discussion, or in the contemplation of more than a few, no decision can have been taken. But I am certain that the disposition to which I have above referred exists; and I think it might be desirable that you should let me know whether you have any, and what, views for your family, or any of the friends attached to you.
Believe me, ever yours most sincerely,
Wellington.
MR. C. W. WYNN TO THE MARQUIS OF BUCKINGHAM.
Saturday.My dear B——,Lord Donoughmore, participating in his brother's objections, has to-day declined the conduct of the Bill in the House of Lords, and recommended that an attempt should be made to prevail upon Lord Grenville to undertake to move the second reading. Anticipating this, I had, by Castlereagh's desire, yesterday sounded Lord G——, who, to my great satisfaction, said that, if applied to under these circumstances, he did not think himself at liberty to refuse. It is intended to fix the second reading for Tuesday se'nnight, the 10th. You will see that the resolutions of the Dublin clergy are extremely moderate, and I understand that their petition is still more so. In Limerick, the clergy have come to violent resolutions, and there has been an aggregate meeting to the same effect. There is a strong protest against them, very numerously and respectably signed by what Rice, the member for the city, describes to be the principal Catholics there. Altogether, it is supposed that the tide runs strongly in favour of the measure.I have been looking over the lists of the House of Lords, by which the majority against the Bill cannot be rated less than twelve; and when one looks at the names of which it consists, I fear that it displays such an array of bigotry and stupidity that one can scarcely hope to make material impression upon it. The only hope is that some of them may stay away. I trust that you will not now delay coming up.Ever affectionately yours,C. W. W.
Saturday.
My dear B——,
Lord Donoughmore, participating in his brother's objections, has to-day declined the conduct of the Bill in the House of Lords, and recommended that an attempt should be made to prevail upon Lord Grenville to undertake to move the second reading. Anticipating this, I had, by Castlereagh's desire, yesterday sounded Lord G——, who, to my great satisfaction, said that, if applied to under these circumstances, he did not think himself at liberty to refuse. It is intended to fix the second reading for Tuesday se'nnight, the 10th. You will see that the resolutions of the Dublin clergy are extremely moderate, and I understand that their petition is still more so. In Limerick, the clergy have come to violent resolutions, and there has been an aggregate meeting to the same effect. There is a strong protest against them, very numerously and respectably signed by what Rice, the member for the city, describes to be the principal Catholics there. Altogether, it is supposed that the tide runs strongly in favour of the measure.
I have been looking over the lists of the House of Lords, by which the majority against the Bill cannot be rated less than twelve; and when one looks at the names of which it consists, I fear that it displays such an array of bigotry and stupidity that one can scarcely hope to make material impression upon it. The only hope is that some of them may stay away. I trust that you will not now delay coming up.
Ever affectionately yours,
C. W. W.
THE DUKE OF WELLINGTON TO THE MARQUIS OF BUCKINGHAM.
London, April 2, 1821.My dear Lord Buckingham,You are quite right respecting the subject of your taking office. I have suggested from myself the propriety and expediency of making you the offer of the Lord Lieutenancy in Ireland, in case the Catholic Bill should pass; and that suggestion was well received. It occurred to me that the arrangement, if occasion for it should offer, might be facilitated by my knowing your wishes, or whether you had any, respecting others, and for that reason I asked the question.It certainly referred only to the particular object in question, if occasion should offer—that is, if the Catholic Bill should pass—as you did not go farther with me. But if you feel disposed to talk with me upon your situation, and that of your friends, in relation to the Government in general, you will find me well disposed to enter into the subject, and to do anything in which you may think I can be of service to forward your views, in the same mode as I have upon the object first mentioned. I shall be at the office today till five o'clock, and to-morrow from two. I can go in to you at any hour; and I think I had better go to you, as your visit to me there might be observed.Ever yours most sincerely,Wellington.
London, April 2, 1821.
My dear Lord Buckingham,
You are quite right respecting the subject of your taking office. I have suggested from myself the propriety and expediency of making you the offer of the Lord Lieutenancy in Ireland, in case the Catholic Bill should pass; and that suggestion was well received. It occurred to me that the arrangement, if occasion for it should offer, might be facilitated by my knowing your wishes, or whether you had any, respecting others, and for that reason I asked the question.
It certainly referred only to the particular object in question, if occasion should offer—that is, if the Catholic Bill should pass—as you did not go farther with me. But if you feel disposed to talk with me upon your situation, and that of your friends, in relation to the Government in general, you will find me well disposed to enter into the subject, and to do anything in which you may think I can be of service to forward your views, in the same mode as I have upon the object first mentioned. I shall be at the office today till five o'clock, and to-morrow from two. I can go in to you at any hour; and I think I had better go to you, as your visit to me there might be observed.
Ever yours most sincerely,
Wellington.
The Catholic Relief Bill was brought before the House of Lords on the 3rd of April, and a very animated debate on the question took place on the 17th, when the Duke of York made an emphatic declaration in opposition; and, although Lord Grenville delivered an able speech in its support, the motion was negatived on a second reading.
The division on the second reading of the Bill was 159 against, 120 for, showing a majority of 39. On the measure being lost, Lord Eldon, the most zealous of the anti-Catholics, thus writes:—"It was quite clear in Lord Grenville's speech that, professing that the Bill must be greatly amended in the Committee, he did most carefully abstain from pointing out one single enactment that could be left untouched, or one that he would introduce as one of his great amendments. He was very dexterous in avoiding saying that he would have no securities; but I think it is clear that is now his meaning. The Duke of York has done more to quiet this matter than everything else put together. It has had a great effect. I have nothing further to delay your drinking to the thirty-nine who saved the Thirty-nine Articles—a very fashionable toast."[62]
"As to Liverpool," writes the Lord Chancellor, "I do not know what he means. To please Grenville, he makes a Regius Professor—friend to the Catholics. To please Lansdowne, he makes a Bishop of Bristol and Regius Professor—friend to the Catholics. He therefore, I dare say, will not stir a step beyond pronouncing in words his speech. I am not quite content with this, and yet I don't know what to do. But what he does or does not do, I think, should not regulate me."[63]
The Court had recovered from the alarm the Queen had created. A magnificent banqueting-room had been finished at the Brighton Pavilion, 60 feet long by 42 wide, and had been furnished with imperial magnificence. This suggested anything but doubts of the Sovereign's undisturbed rule. At Windsor, the current of affairs went merrily as a marriage-bell, the Royal party enjoying "the contemplative man's recreation" on the Virginia Water with a zeal that would have gratified, if it did not edify, Izaak Walton; and now the Coronation was boldly talked of—indeed, preparations were making for the performance of this ceremony with the greatest possible splendour.
THE DUKE OF WELLINGTON TO THE MARQUIS OF BUCKINGHAM.
Strathfieldsaye. April 23, 1821.My dear Lord Buckingham,I have received your note in answer to that which I wrote to you on Wednesday; and I wish you would let me know whether you have any objection to my stating that I know those are your feelings, if there should be an opportunity.I shall be at Winchester on Wednesday, for the meeting of the Lieutenancy, but I am obliged to return here that night, as I have some people here; otherwise, I should take that opportunity of paying you a visit at Avington.Believe me, ever yours most sincerely,Wellington.I was last week at Woburn. I think the Opposition are much more annoyed at having failed in pledging a number of persons by a vote to go with a Committee on Reform, than they are at the loss of the Roman Catholic Bill.
Strathfieldsaye. April 23, 1821.
My dear Lord Buckingham,
I have received your note in answer to that which I wrote to you on Wednesday; and I wish you would let me know whether you have any objection to my stating that I know those are your feelings, if there should be an opportunity.
I shall be at Winchester on Wednesday, for the meeting of the Lieutenancy, but I am obliged to return here that night, as I have some people here; otherwise, I should take that opportunity of paying you a visit at Avington.
Believe me, ever yours most sincerely,
Wellington.
I was last week at Woburn. I think the Opposition are much more annoyed at having failed in pledging a number of persons by a vote to go with a Committee on Reform, than they are at the loss of the Roman Catholic Bill.
RIGHT HON. THOMAS GRENVILLE TO THE MARQUIS OF BUCKINGHAM.
Dropmore, May 15, 1821.My dear Lord B——,I hear from London that the D—— of N—— has been so ill-advised as to have offered to the Q—— the Marshal's box at the Coronation, and that she has written to the K—— to know where and in what dress she should appear at that ceremony. I presume the answer will be, "In a white sheet, in the middle aisle of the Abbey." Perhapstwowhite sheets might be more appropriate, if the report is founded of Bergami the Second, in the person of a certain strapping Scotch Baxter, seven foot by six. If the K—— continues to drive Lord L—— to the wall on one side, and the commoner Lord L—— urges him with a Catholic measure on the other, I should not be surprised that he took that opportunity of withdrawing himself from the turmoil, and of leavingchamp libreto the commoner Lord L——, who may feel more confidence than is reasonable, that he should find himself strong enough to take the whole Government upon his own shoulders—a speculation which, however flattering to his ambition, seems hardly within his reach to carry through, the general opinion being certainly much less favourable to him than to the present First Lord. Perhaps, however, the K—— is tired of his old Ministers, and is ready enough to take to their opposers, provided he can do so with at least the appearance of making it his own act, instead of his submitting to undisguised compulsion; but if he puts away his present servants, he places himself as unconditionally now at the discretion of Opposition, as he would have been if he had surrendered to them at the beginning of the session. Perhaps female influence may have contributed to this new view as a new measure; and undoubtedly it is a most marked demonstration, that the threefirstsubject dinners after the accession should be found in the three leading houses of Opposition. The probability, however, is that it is an over-refinement to give consistency or premeditation to that which may be only the unrestrained irritation of the moment.Yours most affectionately,T. G.
Dropmore, May 15, 1821.
My dear Lord B——,
I hear from London that the D—— of N—— has been so ill-advised as to have offered to the Q—— the Marshal's box at the Coronation, and that she has written to the K—— to know where and in what dress she should appear at that ceremony. I presume the answer will be, "In a white sheet, in the middle aisle of the Abbey." Perhapstwowhite sheets might be more appropriate, if the report is founded of Bergami the Second, in the person of a certain strapping Scotch Baxter, seven foot by six. If the K—— continues to drive Lord L—— to the wall on one side, and the commoner Lord L—— urges him with a Catholic measure on the other, I should not be surprised that he took that opportunity of withdrawing himself from the turmoil, and of leavingchamp libreto the commoner Lord L——, who may feel more confidence than is reasonable, that he should find himself strong enough to take the whole Government upon his own shoulders—a speculation which, however flattering to his ambition, seems hardly within his reach to carry through, the general opinion being certainly much less favourable to him than to the present First Lord. Perhaps, however, the K—— is tired of his old Ministers, and is ready enough to take to their opposers, provided he can do so with at least the appearance of making it his own act, instead of his submitting to undisguised compulsion; but if he puts away his present servants, he places himself as unconditionally now at the discretion of Opposition, as he would have been if he had surrendered to them at the beginning of the session. Perhaps female influence may have contributed to this new view as a new measure; and undoubtedly it is a most marked demonstration, that the threefirstsubject dinners after the accession should be found in the three leading houses of Opposition. The probability, however, is that it is an over-refinement to give consistency or premeditation to that which may be only the unrestrained irritation of the moment.
Yours most affectionately,
T. G.
LORD GRENVILLE TO THE MARQUIS OF BUCKINGHAM.
Dropmore, May 16, 1821.Certainly, your description of the discussion for and against the proposed relief to the Catholics is not encouraging, any more than the prospect which the papers seem to hold out of the rejection of the Grampound Bill by the majority of the Cabinet, in contradiction to Lord Liverpool's support. The King's demonstrations of renewed intercourse with the great peers of opposition must also, in such a moment, be a source of weakness, as well as of personal vexation.In this state of things, I do not wonder that both parts of the Government should be unwilling to stir this Catholic question again in any shape; and I certainly see no such benefit likely to arise from doing so in the mode of partial relief, as to induce the friends of conciliation on a larger scale to embark in any such proposal as this limited measure holds out.If any other proof were wanted beyond what the general view of the subject affords, to convince any reasonable man that this mode of treating the most important of all our present public interests as no Government question, is the worst instead of the best that could be adopted, Lord Londonderry's[64]own situation in respect of this subject at this moment would be decisive against it. He has, I am persuaded, been restrained only by that pledge from taking the only course which becomes him on the subject, and which, if he had adopted it in consequence of the passing of the Bill in the House of Commons, would have been decisive in its favour in its subsequent stages. Having neglected to do this at that time, I myself think that his doing it now would be a step of much more doubtful result, and probably of much more dangerous consequences, and therefore, if I were his adviser, which I am very glad I am not, I do not see what I could suggest but now to leave the matter as it is. Shall we see you on Monday? As to the direct reference which Lord L——'s conversation seems to have had to yourself and your own conduct, in respect to making yourself, personally and officially, a party to this system of treating the greatest of all questions in our domestic policy as no Cabinet measure, what I have already said will sufficiently show you my opinion. It is a mode of getting rid of a present difficulty, but at the risk and almost certainty of the greatest possible embarrassments in future. And this deserves the greater consideration, inasmuch as the events of this session have again rendered this Roman Catholic question so very prominent a feature of all that can be looked to for some time to come.
Dropmore, May 16, 1821.
Certainly, your description of the discussion for and against the proposed relief to the Catholics is not encouraging, any more than the prospect which the papers seem to hold out of the rejection of the Grampound Bill by the majority of the Cabinet, in contradiction to Lord Liverpool's support. The King's demonstrations of renewed intercourse with the great peers of opposition must also, in such a moment, be a source of weakness, as well as of personal vexation.
In this state of things, I do not wonder that both parts of the Government should be unwilling to stir this Catholic question again in any shape; and I certainly see no such benefit likely to arise from doing so in the mode of partial relief, as to induce the friends of conciliation on a larger scale to embark in any such proposal as this limited measure holds out.
If any other proof were wanted beyond what the general view of the subject affords, to convince any reasonable man that this mode of treating the most important of all our present public interests as no Government question, is the worst instead of the best that could be adopted, Lord Londonderry's[64]own situation in respect of this subject at this moment would be decisive against it. He has, I am persuaded, been restrained only by that pledge from taking the only course which becomes him on the subject, and which, if he had adopted it in consequence of the passing of the Bill in the House of Commons, would have been decisive in its favour in its subsequent stages. Having neglected to do this at that time, I myself think that his doing it now would be a step of much more doubtful result, and probably of much more dangerous consequences, and therefore, if I were his adviser, which I am very glad I am not, I do not see what I could suggest but now to leave the matter as it is. Shall we see you on Monday? As to the direct reference which Lord L——'s conversation seems to have had to yourself and your own conduct, in respect to making yourself, personally and officially, a party to this system of treating the greatest of all questions in our domestic policy as no Cabinet measure, what I have already said will sufficiently show you my opinion. It is a mode of getting rid of a present difficulty, but at the risk and almost certainty of the greatest possible embarrassments in future. And this deserves the greater consideration, inasmuch as the events of this session have again rendered this Roman Catholic question so very prominent a feature of all that can be looked to for some time to come.
LORD GRENVILLE TO THE MARQUIS OF BUCKINGHAM.