MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.Pall Mall, Jan. 25th, 1783.My dear Brother,The enclosed memorial of Captain Mingay describes so very hard a case, that I could not resist sending it to you; although the answer which I gave to the Lord Advocate, who put it intomy hands, was that it must come through the Commander-in-Chief.Sir Charles Thompson called upon me with the memorandum upon Sir J. Irvine. He had been ordered by the King to make it out for Lord Shelburne, who referred him through me to you. Upon the last paragraph, I observed that the effects were already sold before the balance due to Government was known. He then proposed the expedient of a temporary pension till a Government should fall, with a provision for applying such proportion of the income of the Government as should be thought fit, in discharge of the debt to the public account.Bulkeley spoke to me yesterday from Lord Northington, about Lady Ligonier. I desired him to advise Lord Northington, as from himself, to write to you about it. If you should then think you can do anything in it, which I cannot help hoping, the obligation will lay upon Lord Northington and not upon Bulkeley.Lord Clermont called upon me yesterday. He put in his claim to the Order, to which I gave the answer of non-residence. He said that he was always over in the Parliamentary winter, and had a house and establishment both in Dublin and in the country. I promised to write to you upon it, but gave him little encouragement, nor indeed did he press it much. Townshend tells me the King makes no difficulty about thecordon bleu, which of course you will magnify as infinitely more honourable, &c., &c.The Post-Office here have been making a strange jumble, and have drawn up a most extravagant Act, God knows why, which they sent to Lord Clermont; I enclose it to you, with my answer to him. We shall be devilishly pressed in the House of Commons about our settlement, as the argument of war is at an end; and yet I doubt whether the people here have either leisure or knowledge sufficient even to talk about it yet. The latter I am sure I have not; and even if I had,I should not think it wise to set the head of every Irish projector here and with you, perfectly afloat. In the meantime it will be matter of some difficulty to parry it.Did I state to you in my account of the debate, Percival's question about the Act of Henry VIII., under which offences committed in the King's dominions beyond seas are triable in England? I rather think the answer will be, both to that and to what I think Lord Beauchamp will probably move, namely, a repeal of all English Acts, as far as they affect Ireland; that they fall to the ground themselves, except where confirmed by Irish Acts; but that if they were repealed, a question might arise how far even those would continue in force, according to Yelverton's Bill.Ever yours,W. W. G.P.S.—Yesterday, after making eighteen post-captains the day before, and after having attended the Cabinet in which the preliminaries were signed, Lord Keppel resigned the Admiralty. There are two ideas upon this; one is that he had always intended it as soon as peace was concluded, the other that he disapproved the articles. I think they are very consistent, and that if he had the first intention, he would take care to lay a groundwork for future opposition by refusing his concurrence to the peace; besides which, he probably feels little disposed to any mode of bringing about an event by which he loses so much consequence, and what is no less dear to him, so much patronage. I hear nothing said from any authority about his successor; the Duke of Grafton and Lord Howe seem to be the persons most talked of. Things are going on much too well in Ireland for them to think of, or I think for you to wish, especially at this moment, a different arrangement from either of those two.It is very much reported, and I believe with certainty, thatthe Duke of Richmond has retired from the Cabinet, and means at the same time to keep the Ordnance. What other people mean about that, is, I think, not quite so clear; though the Duke of Richmond's bitterest enemy could not, I should think, wish to see him in a more degrading situation—such a situation, indeed, as it seems impossible should last for any length of time, or a moment longer than till a proper successor is found.Minorca goes to France, and not to Spain, as Tom told you. That, I think, istant pis.I have just received your despatches of the 22nd, and found, to my great disappointment, that you had not then received mine of the 19th. It is upon the conviction ofbonne foithat I act.Ever yours,W. W. G.I hope if the Admiralty should be offered you, you deliberate very maturely, particularly on the prospect in the House of Commons here.
MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.
Pall Mall, Jan. 25th, 1783.
My dear Brother,
The enclosed memorial of Captain Mingay describes so very hard a case, that I could not resist sending it to you; although the answer which I gave to the Lord Advocate, who put it intomy hands, was that it must come through the Commander-in-Chief.
Sir Charles Thompson called upon me with the memorandum upon Sir J. Irvine. He had been ordered by the King to make it out for Lord Shelburne, who referred him through me to you. Upon the last paragraph, I observed that the effects were already sold before the balance due to Government was known. He then proposed the expedient of a temporary pension till a Government should fall, with a provision for applying such proportion of the income of the Government as should be thought fit, in discharge of the debt to the public account.
Bulkeley spoke to me yesterday from Lord Northington, about Lady Ligonier. I desired him to advise Lord Northington, as from himself, to write to you about it. If you should then think you can do anything in it, which I cannot help hoping, the obligation will lay upon Lord Northington and not upon Bulkeley.
Lord Clermont called upon me yesterday. He put in his claim to the Order, to which I gave the answer of non-residence. He said that he was always over in the Parliamentary winter, and had a house and establishment both in Dublin and in the country. I promised to write to you upon it, but gave him little encouragement, nor indeed did he press it much. Townshend tells me the King makes no difficulty about thecordon bleu, which of course you will magnify as infinitely more honourable, &c., &c.
The Post-Office here have been making a strange jumble, and have drawn up a most extravagant Act, God knows why, which they sent to Lord Clermont; I enclose it to you, with my answer to him. We shall be devilishly pressed in the House of Commons about our settlement, as the argument of war is at an end; and yet I doubt whether the people here have either leisure or knowledge sufficient even to talk about it yet. The latter I am sure I have not; and even if I had,I should not think it wise to set the head of every Irish projector here and with you, perfectly afloat. In the meantime it will be matter of some difficulty to parry it.
Did I state to you in my account of the debate, Percival's question about the Act of Henry VIII., under which offences committed in the King's dominions beyond seas are triable in England? I rather think the answer will be, both to that and to what I think Lord Beauchamp will probably move, namely, a repeal of all English Acts, as far as they affect Ireland; that they fall to the ground themselves, except where confirmed by Irish Acts; but that if they were repealed, a question might arise how far even those would continue in force, according to Yelverton's Bill.
Ever yours,W. W. G.
P.S.—Yesterday, after making eighteen post-captains the day before, and after having attended the Cabinet in which the preliminaries were signed, Lord Keppel resigned the Admiralty. There are two ideas upon this; one is that he had always intended it as soon as peace was concluded, the other that he disapproved the articles. I think they are very consistent, and that if he had the first intention, he would take care to lay a groundwork for future opposition by refusing his concurrence to the peace; besides which, he probably feels little disposed to any mode of bringing about an event by which he loses so much consequence, and what is no less dear to him, so much patronage. I hear nothing said from any authority about his successor; the Duke of Grafton and Lord Howe seem to be the persons most talked of. Things are going on much too well in Ireland for them to think of, or I think for you to wish, especially at this moment, a different arrangement from either of those two.
It is very much reported, and I believe with certainty, thatthe Duke of Richmond has retired from the Cabinet, and means at the same time to keep the Ordnance. What other people mean about that, is, I think, not quite so clear; though the Duke of Richmond's bitterest enemy could not, I should think, wish to see him in a more degrading situation—such a situation, indeed, as it seems impossible should last for any length of time, or a moment longer than till a proper successor is found.
Minorca goes to France, and not to Spain, as Tom told you. That, I think, istant pis.
I have just received your despatches of the 22nd, and found, to my great disappointment, that you had not then received mine of the 19th. It is upon the conviction ofbonne foithat I act.
Ever yours,W. W. G.
I hope if the Admiralty should be offered you, you deliberate very maturely, particularly on the prospect in the House of Commons here.
MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.Pall Mall, Jan. 27th, 1783.My dear Brother,Although Townshend has probably informed you, yet I could not help writing a line by this messenger to congratulate you upon the capture of a French seventy-four and frigate, with which the war ends. They were taken near Barbadoes, by Hughes's squadron, after a short action with the 'Ruby,' the headmost ship.I have already written by the post. The Duke of Richmond's resignation is not certain; and Townshend, Conway and Pitt certainly approve and stay in.Ever yours,W. W. G.
MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.
Pall Mall, Jan. 27th, 1783.
My dear Brother,
Although Townshend has probably informed you, yet I could not help writing a line by this messenger to congratulate you upon the capture of a French seventy-four and frigate, with which the war ends. They were taken near Barbadoes, by Hughes's squadron, after a short action with the 'Ruby,' the headmost ship.
I have already written by the post. The Duke of Richmond's resignation is not certain; and Townshend, Conway and Pitt certainly approve and stay in.
Ever yours,W. W. G.
Some particulars concerning the arrangements for the new Order of Knighthood will be read with curiosity. The pretensions of particular individuals to the Ribband of St. Patrick do not properly form materials for political history, and a few letters, in which such claims are freely canvassed, have been excluded from our selection. But the following, which touches upon the small preliminaries to which statesmen are forced to condescend on these ceremonial occasions, possesses more general interest of an illustrative kind.
MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.Pall Mall, Jan. 31st, 1783.My dear Brother,While you are persecuted by Lords Arran, Aldborough, Altamnt, andomne quod incipitin A, I have had daily application from Lord Clermont, which I have promised to submit formally to you.His family and connexions in Ireland and their weight is the first thing he states. To this I gave the answer of non-residence. He says that he always resides during the Parliament winter; that he has a house and establishment both in Dublin and in the country; and that he is more a resident than Lord Clanricarde or Lord Courtown. I then stated the impossibility of increasing the number, which had been a particular object with the King. His solution to that was, that when the King named sixteen, he certainly did not mean to include himself; and that the Thistle is twelve without the Sovereign. He proposes therefore that, as he has always been one of those talked of for it, andas his friends make ita point with him to apply, you should make it sixteen without the King, by adding his name.You will therefore be so good as either to send him from yourself, or to commission me to write to him, a formal answer,tel qu'il vous plaira.In general, the list is approved; but they object to the insertion of Lord Bechoe's name, and to the omission of Lord Meath's.Fox and his people are very industrious in turning it into ridicule, by which I should think they would not increase their Irish popularity. And what is ridiculous, is that at the same time the Duke of Portland is taking pains to persuade all Irishmen that he meant to have done the same if he had staid long enough.I have seen Edmonson, who has this day given me in a proposal, which you will not think much more moderate than you did his bill for the escutcheons (which, by the bye, he says you have never paid).I should think the twenty guineas per Knight for the superintendence might very well be reduced to giving himpro tempore, and for this installation only, one of the heralds' places, in lieu of all travelling expenses and allowances. The Painters' Bill, as they call it, is fixed for the Bath, and might, I should think, reasonably be given to him at the same rate.He is making out copies of the drawings; one or two alterations he has suggested which strike me. The first is the knots in the Collar. If they are gold, and the harp likewise, the whole will look, I think, too like a Lord Mayor's gold chain, and will make no show; nothing being more dull to the eye than plain gold. He wants to have them enamelled, so as to be like the strings and tassels of the mantle.He will also send a drawing of the Badge, with the wreath of trefoil drawn in single leaves, instead of the full wreath, which looks, as he says truly, like a civic crown or oak garland. But this you will see in the drawing, and which looks best.I wish that there was a statute to fix the plates of the Knights to remain in the stall in which they were first installed. In the chapel at Windsor they are obliged now to put them up loose, in order to their being removed; the consequence is, that they are frequently lost. Besides, the plates of the first sixteen might then be fixed in the centre of each stall as a mark of distinction for the founders.In the Garter there are no plates in the Sovereign's stall. I should think that the Grand Master at each installation might be allowed to put up his, as the banner must of course always be the Sovereign's.Edmonson proposes that he should have one of each article of the Painters' Bill made here, to carry with him as a pattern. If you see no objection, he might do Mornington's for this purpose. An advantage might be given to Edmonson by authorizing him to publish an account of the ceremony, with the arms and pedigrees of the Knights, &c., &c., to which they would of course subscribe.Is the jewellery—I mean collars and badges—to be done in Ireland? I believe there is no workmanship at all of that sort there.Townshend will, I believe, send the approbation to-night. It has waited upon an idea of the Prince of Wales, who gave it out to everybody that he had sent in to the King to ask for it.[1]This was the day after the King had given his approbation to the list, and named Prince Edward. I thought it right to wait a day or two, to know if the King would speak to him about it. He never has; and Townshend is to mention the Order again to-day, and send the approbation to night or to-morrow. Adieu.Ever yours,W. W. G.
MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.
Pall Mall, Jan. 31st, 1783.
My dear Brother,
While you are persecuted by Lords Arran, Aldborough, Altamnt, andomne quod incipitin A, I have had daily application from Lord Clermont, which I have promised to submit formally to you.
His family and connexions in Ireland and their weight is the first thing he states. To this I gave the answer of non-residence. He says that he always resides during the Parliament winter; that he has a house and establishment both in Dublin and in the country; and that he is more a resident than Lord Clanricarde or Lord Courtown. I then stated the impossibility of increasing the number, which had been a particular object with the King. His solution to that was, that when the King named sixteen, he certainly did not mean to include himself; and that the Thistle is twelve without the Sovereign. He proposes therefore that, as he has always been one of those talked of for it, andas his friends make ita point with him to apply, you should make it sixteen without the King, by adding his name.
You will therefore be so good as either to send him from yourself, or to commission me to write to him, a formal answer,tel qu'il vous plaira.
In general, the list is approved; but they object to the insertion of Lord Bechoe's name, and to the omission of Lord Meath's.
Fox and his people are very industrious in turning it into ridicule, by which I should think they would not increase their Irish popularity. And what is ridiculous, is that at the same time the Duke of Portland is taking pains to persuade all Irishmen that he meant to have done the same if he had staid long enough.
I have seen Edmonson, who has this day given me in a proposal, which you will not think much more moderate than you did his bill for the escutcheons (which, by the bye, he says you have never paid).
I should think the twenty guineas per Knight for the superintendence might very well be reduced to giving himpro tempore, and for this installation only, one of the heralds' places, in lieu of all travelling expenses and allowances. The Painters' Bill, as they call it, is fixed for the Bath, and might, I should think, reasonably be given to him at the same rate.
He is making out copies of the drawings; one or two alterations he has suggested which strike me. The first is the knots in the Collar. If they are gold, and the harp likewise, the whole will look, I think, too like a Lord Mayor's gold chain, and will make no show; nothing being more dull to the eye than plain gold. He wants to have them enamelled, so as to be like the strings and tassels of the mantle.
He will also send a drawing of the Badge, with the wreath of trefoil drawn in single leaves, instead of the full wreath, which looks, as he says truly, like a civic crown or oak garland. But this you will see in the drawing, and which looks best.
I wish that there was a statute to fix the plates of the Knights to remain in the stall in which they were first installed. In the chapel at Windsor they are obliged now to put them up loose, in order to their being removed; the consequence is, that they are frequently lost. Besides, the plates of the first sixteen might then be fixed in the centre of each stall as a mark of distinction for the founders.
In the Garter there are no plates in the Sovereign's stall. I should think that the Grand Master at each installation might be allowed to put up his, as the banner must of course always be the Sovereign's.
Edmonson proposes that he should have one of each article of the Painters' Bill made here, to carry with him as a pattern. If you see no objection, he might do Mornington's for this purpose. An advantage might be given to Edmonson by authorizing him to publish an account of the ceremony, with the arms and pedigrees of the Knights, &c., &c., to which they would of course subscribe.
Is the jewellery—I mean collars and badges—to be done in Ireland? I believe there is no workmanship at all of that sort there.
Townshend will, I believe, send the approbation to-night. It has waited upon an idea of the Prince of Wales, who gave it out to everybody that he had sent in to the King to ask for it.[1]This was the day after the King had given his approbation to the list, and named Prince Edward. I thought it right to wait a day or two, to know if the King would speak to him about it. He never has; and Townshend is to mention the Order again to-day, and send the approbation to night or to-morrow. Adieu.
Ever yours,W. W. G.
[1]The Premier did ask for it, but was refused.
[1]The Premier did ask for it, but was refused.
The "Coalition Administration" was now beginning to "loom" dimly in the distance. Various changes were whispered, and from day to day new reports got abroad of negotiations with Lord North's party. The first step towards the consummation of an alliance may be said to have been already taken when Townshend, abandoning the traditions of his party, told Mr. Grenville that he saw no reason for proscribing all Lord North's people fromoffice, although he objected to giving them any share in theGovernment. The meaning of this ingenious distinction is clear. The Administration was tottering, and the only chance they saw of strengthening their position was to buy off the opposition of the followers of the late Cabinet. To swamp their opponents and at the same time keep the actual power in their own hands, was a piece of strategy which might be expected from the general character of Lord Shelburne's tactics. But it failed, and failed conspicuously. Mr. Grenville discerned clearly the danger of this clever plan, from which he could anticipate no other result than that of sapping the foundations of the existing Government. In the letters that follow we have a close running commentary on the state of parties, and the rumours that hourly agitated the public mind during this interval of intestine struggle. Mr. Grenville considered the circumstances of the Ministry hopeless, as, we gather from his previous communications, he appears to have done all throughout. Their conduct upon the Irish Bill, which was still destined to entail division and uneasiness, revealed to him the fatal want of unity, earnestness and activity in their councils; and evenif they had had no perils to guard against from without, he saw sources of weakness enough within the Cabinet itself to destroy all confidence in their stability. There were only two parties from whose ranks the Ministry could be recruited, and these two had hitherto acted in public life with the fiercest animosity towards each other. The attempts that were made to win over some of Lord North's adherents having failed, the only alternative left was to apply to Fox. That this application was actually made, and made in person by Pitt, who, with a thorough knowledge of the character of Fox, believed that the most direct mode of ascertaining his sentiments was not only the most honourable to both, but the most likely to attain its end, either by a candid refusal or immediate acceptance, is here authoritatively stated by Mr. Grenville. Fox's answer is conclusive as to the real obstacle which impeded all negotiation. While Lord Shelburne was in office nothing could be done: no party would consent to coalesce with him. The humiliating condition to which he had lowered the Administration, is shown in the straits to which it was now reduced—seeking support alternately from opposite parties, and finding its offers rejected in turn by both.
MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.Pall Mall, Feb. 6th, 1783.My dear Brother,Townshend's messenger is nowhere, waiting for this letter; and as, by a mistake, I was not till now informed of his going to-night, I have only time to write a few lines, just to acknowledgethe receipt of your letter of the 2nd instant, and to say a very little upon the singular situation of things here.To-day, when I delivered your despatches to Townshend, I entered into a conversation with him on this subject, saying that you trusted to him for information, &c., &c. He perfectly agreed with me in thinking that it could not go on without some new arrangement of some sort or other. At the same time, he said that he knew of no negotiation going on with Lord North. That there was no truth in the reports which have circulated so much that Jenkinson was to be Chancellor of the Exchequer, Pitt Secretary, and himself Paymaster. That he had good reason to believe that there had been a negotiation between Lord North and Fox, but that it was now off. That, for his own part, he saw no reason for proscribing all Lord North's people fromoffice, but he should not like to see them inGovernment.Upon this text it is not very easy to reason. The prevailing idea certainly is that Lord Shelburne is making overtures to Lord North. Whether those are to go to Cabinet arrangement, or only to provision for Lord North's family and offices of emolument, &c., for George North, &c., &c., I do not know; if the former, it is clear that he keeps it from the knowledge both of Townshend and Pitt; the latter, I have very good reason to believe, would object to it.In the meantime a storm is brewing, and will probably burst when the preliminaries come to be considered, unless some event takes place before that time. Lord Keppel and the Duke of Richmond both assign the badness of the peace for their reason for resigning. Lord Carlisle does the same, but I understand his great objection goes to the Loyalists, to whom he considered his personal honour engaged. The report of the day is, that the Duke of Grafton has followed their example. Of this Townshend said not one word to me, nor did I hear it till after I had seen him. This rather makes me disinclined tobelieve it, though his Grace has certainly had a kind of flirtation with Fox for some days past.Upon the whole, the only thing which I can at all venture to pronounce with certainty, is that it cannot do as it is; and that if Fox's people continue, as I believe they will, to stand aloof, they must either all resign, or fill up the vacancies as fast as they occur, day after day, with Lord North's people.En quo discordia cives prodaxit miseros.In the case of an immediate resignation, Lord North's people will come in by storm (Fox not having the least chance): in that of gradual admission, they will sap the Government by degrees. In either case, there is too much reason to fear the return of the old system of corruption on one side, and faction on the other.With regard to the peace, I own I cannot think it so bad, all things considered. If one measures it by anuti possidetis, it is surely advantageous; and I see no reason for being at all confident that another campaign would have put us in a better situation to negotiate. In this line, I had intended to have stated my ideas on the day of debate in the House of Commons; but I am deterred by reading your opinions, and by a fear, I believe too well grounded, that you will take an active part the other way; and I cannot reconcile myself to the appearance of a Scotch family. If it had not been for this, I think it would have had a handsome appearance in the hour of their distress, and would not have had a bad effect in Ireland; if, indeed, we are any longer interested there, which I begin to doubt. Adieu, my dearest brother.Ever most affectionately yours,W. W. G.
MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.
Pall Mall, Feb. 6th, 1783.
My dear Brother,
Townshend's messenger is nowhere, waiting for this letter; and as, by a mistake, I was not till now informed of his going to-night, I have only time to write a few lines, just to acknowledgethe receipt of your letter of the 2nd instant, and to say a very little upon the singular situation of things here.
To-day, when I delivered your despatches to Townshend, I entered into a conversation with him on this subject, saying that you trusted to him for information, &c., &c. He perfectly agreed with me in thinking that it could not go on without some new arrangement of some sort or other. At the same time, he said that he knew of no negotiation going on with Lord North. That there was no truth in the reports which have circulated so much that Jenkinson was to be Chancellor of the Exchequer, Pitt Secretary, and himself Paymaster. That he had good reason to believe that there had been a negotiation between Lord North and Fox, but that it was now off. That, for his own part, he saw no reason for proscribing all Lord North's people fromoffice, but he should not like to see them inGovernment.
Upon this text it is not very easy to reason. The prevailing idea certainly is that Lord Shelburne is making overtures to Lord North. Whether those are to go to Cabinet arrangement, or only to provision for Lord North's family and offices of emolument, &c., for George North, &c., &c., I do not know; if the former, it is clear that he keeps it from the knowledge both of Townshend and Pitt; the latter, I have very good reason to believe, would object to it.
In the meantime a storm is brewing, and will probably burst when the preliminaries come to be considered, unless some event takes place before that time. Lord Keppel and the Duke of Richmond both assign the badness of the peace for their reason for resigning. Lord Carlisle does the same, but I understand his great objection goes to the Loyalists, to whom he considered his personal honour engaged. The report of the day is, that the Duke of Grafton has followed their example. Of this Townshend said not one word to me, nor did I hear it till after I had seen him. This rather makes me disinclined tobelieve it, though his Grace has certainly had a kind of flirtation with Fox for some days past.
Upon the whole, the only thing which I can at all venture to pronounce with certainty, is that it cannot do as it is; and that if Fox's people continue, as I believe they will, to stand aloof, they must either all resign, or fill up the vacancies as fast as they occur, day after day, with Lord North's people.En quo discordia cives prodaxit miseros.
In the case of an immediate resignation, Lord North's people will come in by storm (Fox not having the least chance): in that of gradual admission, they will sap the Government by degrees. In either case, there is too much reason to fear the return of the old system of corruption on one side, and faction on the other.
With regard to the peace, I own I cannot think it so bad, all things considered. If one measures it by anuti possidetis, it is surely advantageous; and I see no reason for being at all confident that another campaign would have put us in a better situation to negotiate. In this line, I had intended to have stated my ideas on the day of debate in the House of Commons; but I am deterred by reading your opinions, and by a fear, I believe too well grounded, that you will take an active part the other way; and I cannot reconcile myself to the appearance of a Scotch family. If it had not been for this, I think it would have had a handsome appearance in the hour of their distress, and would not have had a bad effect in Ireland; if, indeed, we are any longer interested there, which I begin to doubt. Adieu, my dearest brother.
Ever most affectionately yours,W. W. G.
MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.Pall Mall, Feb. 8th, 1783, Nine,P.M.My dear Brother,I wrote to you this morning an account, which you will receive at the same time with this letter, of a conversation with Lord Bellamont. I little thought, at that time, that I should now have one of so different a nature to detail to you, which I had, just before dinner, with Percy. He said, that although he might be thought officious in coming to speak to me upon a subject, upon which it had not been thought proper to make him any communication, yet he could not help saying that he thought it inconsistent with his duty to you, &c., &c., not to state to me that he had last night procured from the House of Commons a copy of the Bill proposed; and that he was fully convinced that, so far from answering the purpose intended by it, the country would be thrown by it into a much greater flame than ever. I asked him to state his objections; he said they would be best seen by the form which he had drawn up, and would leave with me for my consideration.I did not detail to him the many objections which occur to me upon his Bill, and particularly that most insuperable difficulty of its asserting what the right now is, in contradiction to the declared opinion of almost every lawyer in this country. But I said, in general terms, that the Bill in question had been drawn up with great consideration; and that it was a matter of infinite delicacy, on account of the great variety of prejudices to be encountered on both sides of the water. He asked if this was the form which had been sent to you, and if you had consulted people there upon it. To this I could not but answer that I understood you had, though you do not say a word to me upon that subject, and it is a question which will most certainly be asked in the House of Commons.This unexpected difficulty has made me determine to postpone the second reading of the Bill till I have an answer to this letter, unless I should in the meantime receive one from you perfectly approving, and stating the opinions of people in Ireland as agreeing with yours upon it.It is certainly to be observed, that the whole of this difficulty has arisen from want of communication from Ministry to you. Because, if you had known that they were determined to admit no recognition of the existing right, it would have been well worth considering whether anything short of that would not be worse than as it was before. Instead of that, they receive your resolutions and your Bill, and then pledge themselves, and suffer me to pledge both them and you toa Bill; after which, they first say that they will allow of nothing which admits theoriginalright, and when beat from that ground, that they will not have anything asserting thepresentright. It then only remained, as we were pledged toa Bill, to consider whether this was not the best form of a Bill to be drawn on such principles.Whatever your answer has been to Townshend's despatch, I hope at least that it has been coolly and temperately expressed, as he told me he meant to represent to you that an advantage had been taken against you from the warmth of your late despatches.Another advantage which will arise from deferring the second reading will be, that by that time this strange, unsettled situation of things must have taken some form; and I do not believe that this form will be such as you will choose to act under in Ireland. In that case, it certainly will not be worth our while to engage our characters to a measure which the folly of your successor may render pernicious; which must at all events be precarious; and which England will most certainly repent whenever the hour of her insolence shall return. We took the business out of the hands of Lord Beauchamp, becauseit ought to be conducted by Government; and that will be the best reason for resigning it into other hands whenever we shall cease to stand in that character; whichwhenevermust, I think, arrive in the course of a very few days.Jemmy is to dine at Lord Shelburne's on Monday, when he will probably be able to tell you more. I go to Townshend to-morrow, and mean to try what I can get from him.At least we have the satisfaction to reflect, that if your reign has been short, it has not been dishonourable to you; and that having taken the Government at a most difficult and inauspicious moment, you will quit it with more real and more deserved popularity than the Duke of Portland, notwithstanding the uncommon advantages which threw themselves in his way.Of myself I say nothing, except that wherever and whatever I am, I shall always consider myself as deriving honour, consequence and happiness from your character and success.In these sentiments believe me,My dearest brother,Ever most affectionately yours,W. W. G.I am able to tell you nothing with any certainty as to the state of parties; but I think that neither Lord Shelburne nor Fox are strong enough to keep the Government without a coalition with Lord North's people, and that the latter are too strong to sell themselves unless they be admitted to form part of theGovernment. Fox's people no longer deny his negotiating with Lord North.
MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.
Pall Mall, Feb. 8th, 1783, Nine,P.M.
My dear Brother,
I wrote to you this morning an account, which you will receive at the same time with this letter, of a conversation with Lord Bellamont. I little thought, at that time, that I should now have one of so different a nature to detail to you, which I had, just before dinner, with Percy. He said, that although he might be thought officious in coming to speak to me upon a subject, upon which it had not been thought proper to make him any communication, yet he could not help saying that he thought it inconsistent with his duty to you, &c., &c., not to state to me that he had last night procured from the House of Commons a copy of the Bill proposed; and that he was fully convinced that, so far from answering the purpose intended by it, the country would be thrown by it into a much greater flame than ever. I asked him to state his objections; he said they would be best seen by the form which he had drawn up, and would leave with me for my consideration.
I did not detail to him the many objections which occur to me upon his Bill, and particularly that most insuperable difficulty of its asserting what the right now is, in contradiction to the declared opinion of almost every lawyer in this country. But I said, in general terms, that the Bill in question had been drawn up with great consideration; and that it was a matter of infinite delicacy, on account of the great variety of prejudices to be encountered on both sides of the water. He asked if this was the form which had been sent to you, and if you had consulted people there upon it. To this I could not but answer that I understood you had, though you do not say a word to me upon that subject, and it is a question which will most certainly be asked in the House of Commons.
This unexpected difficulty has made me determine to postpone the second reading of the Bill till I have an answer to this letter, unless I should in the meantime receive one from you perfectly approving, and stating the opinions of people in Ireland as agreeing with yours upon it.
It is certainly to be observed, that the whole of this difficulty has arisen from want of communication from Ministry to you. Because, if you had known that they were determined to admit no recognition of the existing right, it would have been well worth considering whether anything short of that would not be worse than as it was before. Instead of that, they receive your resolutions and your Bill, and then pledge themselves, and suffer me to pledge both them and you toa Bill; after which, they first say that they will allow of nothing which admits theoriginalright, and when beat from that ground, that they will not have anything asserting thepresentright. It then only remained, as we were pledged toa Bill, to consider whether this was not the best form of a Bill to be drawn on such principles.
Whatever your answer has been to Townshend's despatch, I hope at least that it has been coolly and temperately expressed, as he told me he meant to represent to you that an advantage had been taken against you from the warmth of your late despatches.
Another advantage which will arise from deferring the second reading will be, that by that time this strange, unsettled situation of things must have taken some form; and I do not believe that this form will be such as you will choose to act under in Ireland. In that case, it certainly will not be worth our while to engage our characters to a measure which the folly of your successor may render pernicious; which must at all events be precarious; and which England will most certainly repent whenever the hour of her insolence shall return. We took the business out of the hands of Lord Beauchamp, becauseit ought to be conducted by Government; and that will be the best reason for resigning it into other hands whenever we shall cease to stand in that character; whichwhenevermust, I think, arrive in the course of a very few days.
Jemmy is to dine at Lord Shelburne's on Monday, when he will probably be able to tell you more. I go to Townshend to-morrow, and mean to try what I can get from him.
At least we have the satisfaction to reflect, that if your reign has been short, it has not been dishonourable to you; and that having taken the Government at a most difficult and inauspicious moment, you will quit it with more real and more deserved popularity than the Duke of Portland, notwithstanding the uncommon advantages which threw themselves in his way.
Of myself I say nothing, except that wherever and whatever I am, I shall always consider myself as deriving honour, consequence and happiness from your character and success.
In these sentiments believe me,My dearest brother,Ever most affectionately yours,W. W. G.
I am able to tell you nothing with any certainty as to the state of parties; but I think that neither Lord Shelburne nor Fox are strong enough to keep the Government without a coalition with Lord North's people, and that the latter are too strong to sell themselves unless they be admitted to form part of theGovernment. Fox's people no longer deny his negotiating with Lord North.
MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.Pall Mall, Feb. 8th, 1783.My dear Brother,Lord Nugent tells me that when he saw the Primate, he observed to him that, by the list of officers of the Order, there was no mention made of any prelate, although in other respects the Garter was implicitly followed; and he says he thought, by the Primate's manner, that he himself wanted to be that prelate; as that officer is, you know, superior in rank to the Chancellor of the Order.If this be the case, I can see no reason why the offer should not be made to him, which might still be done by your writing to say that that office had been omitted, from the impossibility of giving it to any other person but himself, and a doubt how far he might like the trouble; but that you had daily expected him in Ireland, and meant to ask him the question; but the time now drawing near, &c., &c.Nothing else has passed on the subject, except a third application from Lord Clermont, through General Cuninghame, to whom I stated the total impossibility, &c. I expected Lord Bellamont to have asked it to-day; but he did not drop a word upon the subject.Ever yours,W. W. G.
MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.
Pall Mall, Feb. 8th, 1783.
My dear Brother,
Lord Nugent tells me that when he saw the Primate, he observed to him that, by the list of officers of the Order, there was no mention made of any prelate, although in other respects the Garter was implicitly followed; and he says he thought, by the Primate's manner, that he himself wanted to be that prelate; as that officer is, you know, superior in rank to the Chancellor of the Order.
If this be the case, I can see no reason why the offer should not be made to him, which might still be done by your writing to say that that office had been omitted, from the impossibility of giving it to any other person but himself, and a doubt how far he might like the trouble; but that you had daily expected him in Ireland, and meant to ask him the question; but the time now drawing near, &c., &c.
Nothing else has passed on the subject, except a third application from Lord Clermont, through General Cuninghame, to whom I stated the total impossibility, &c. I expected Lord Bellamont to have asked it to-day; but he did not drop a word upon the subject.
Ever yours,W. W. G.
MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.Feb. 11th, 1783.My dear Brother,Things are drawing near to their crisis. Lord Shelburne's weakness is every day more apparent. Nothing is clearer than that he cannot stand a week without some addition. The strongest proof of this is what Pitt told me to-day: that it being thought necessary to make some attempt at a junctionwith Fox, he had seen him to-day, when he asked one question, viz., whether there were any terms on which he would come in. The answer was, None, while Lord Shelburne remained; and so it ended.Upon this, I think one may observe, that the one must be very desperate, the other very confident, before such a question could be so put and so answered.I told him I was glad the attempt was made, though I was not at all surprised at the event. He said that he thought they would now be justified in seeking for additional strength elsewhere. I said I thought so too, but that I could not help trusting that this expression did not go to include the idea of bringing back any of the old peopleto Cabinet offices; that I thought the line was clear that it was the duty of every man to do his utmost to keep the Government in such hands as were fit and able to hold it (under which description I could not include any of that set); but that when it was so placed, it was idle to say that support was not to be looked for where it could be had. He said that, without making professions, he could with truth say, that this had always been his idea. And so our conversation ended—at least, this was the only material part of it.There is no doubt but that they have been making proposals to Jenkinson, and these must have failed before the other offer could be made. On the other hand, I know for certain that negotiations,through more than one channel, have beenentamébetween Fox and Lord North. This must bebien en train, if one may judge by what I tell you in this letter.In that case, as well as in that which I put to ——, I take it for granted that I know your line; and whatever the effect of that line must be with respect to my own fortunes, I have infinitely too great a concern for your honour and my own, not to desire and wish it most eagerly. The only thing which pains me is the consideration of Bernard. If the intervalshould afford you an opportunity for that, I should depart in peace. Adieu.Believe me,Most sincerely and affectionately yours,————
MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.
Feb. 11th, 1783.
My dear Brother,
Things are drawing near to their crisis. Lord Shelburne's weakness is every day more apparent. Nothing is clearer than that he cannot stand a week without some addition. The strongest proof of this is what Pitt told me to-day: that it being thought necessary to make some attempt at a junctionwith Fox, he had seen him to-day, when he asked one question, viz., whether there were any terms on which he would come in. The answer was, None, while Lord Shelburne remained; and so it ended.
Upon this, I think one may observe, that the one must be very desperate, the other very confident, before such a question could be so put and so answered.
I told him I was glad the attempt was made, though I was not at all surprised at the event. He said that he thought they would now be justified in seeking for additional strength elsewhere. I said I thought so too, but that I could not help trusting that this expression did not go to include the idea of bringing back any of the old peopleto Cabinet offices; that I thought the line was clear that it was the duty of every man to do his utmost to keep the Government in such hands as were fit and able to hold it (under which description I could not include any of that set); but that when it was so placed, it was idle to say that support was not to be looked for where it could be had. He said that, without making professions, he could with truth say, that this had always been his idea. And so our conversation ended—at least, this was the only material part of it.
There is no doubt but that they have been making proposals to Jenkinson, and these must have failed before the other offer could be made. On the other hand, I know for certain that negotiations,through more than one channel, have beenentamébetween Fox and Lord North. This must bebien en train, if one may judge by what I tell you in this letter.
In that case, as well as in that which I put to ——, I take it for granted that I know your line; and whatever the effect of that line must be with respect to my own fortunes, I have infinitely too great a concern for your honour and my own, not to desire and wish it most eagerly. The only thing which pains me is the consideration of Bernard. If the intervalshould afford you an opportunity for that, I should depart in peace. Adieu.
Believe me,Most sincerely and affectionately yours,————
MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.Pall Mall, Feb. 15th, 1783.My dear Brother,I have this day received your letter of the 9th, and have the greatest satisfaction at that which you express respecting this long-agitated Bill. Since you wrote that, but before this time, you will have received a letter from me, enclosing a Bill proposed by Percy. I confess his dissent alarmed me a good deal at the time, ignorant as I was whether you might not see it in the same light. I am convinced now that it proceeds only from his resentment at not being consulted previous to its being fixed upon. The second reading stands now for Wednesday; but I doubt whether it can come on, as I understand the call previously fixed for that day is to be insisted upon. Before that time, I shall probably have received your letter, informing me whom you have consulted, as that is very material, particularly with regard to my being able to urge Grattan and Yelverton's authority against Fox and Fitzpatrick. At all events, however, I mean now to proceed in it on that day if I can, if not as early as possible, and tobringyou the account of the third reading in the House of Commons.All this proceeds upon the idea that nothing of a different nature happens before; which I still think there is every reason to imagine. I cannot learn whether Fox and Lord North have settled their coalition so as to act together on Monday. Jenkinson is, I believe, secured to us; but at what price, and with what following, I am utterly ignorant; and on that the whole undoubtedly depends. As soon as I knowanything, you shall hear it in the most expeditious manner; but I do not give you my conjectures when they are merely such, because I know people at a distance are apt to give them more weight than they deserve, and I should be sorry to mislead you.The Duke of Rutland is Lord Steward, and it is said he is called to the Cabinet. This, to my mind, argues great weakness indeed. In the House of Lords, Lord Pembroke moves the Address; in the House of Commons, T. Pitt. This, I think, does not show very great strength. The seconders I know not.You have several times mentioned the Pension List; and I have as often forgot to tell you, that I inquired in the first instance without speaking to Pitt, and found that, whatever reform is to be made, rests wholly with Lord Shelburne, who appears to act in it on no system, but to add or to take away at his pleasure. Jackson and Jemmy Grenville remonstrated some days ago at the Treasury against signing any more till they saw that the act was to be complied with.Upon the subject of the Fisheries, I have had a conversation with Hunter Blair, the member for Edinburgh. There has been a meeting of the Scotch members to support a Bill in Parliament to extend the bounty now given in England for the Scotch coast, to fish caught on the Irish coast, and to give the fishermen a power of landing and drying on the Irish, as on the Scotch coast. They went to Lord Shelburne, who referred them to me. I desired Blair to send me a copy of the memorial, and an abstract of the several British and Irish Acts on the subject.The Irish are very ill done, as the two most material, in 1764 and 1776, are omitted. I do not find by any Irish Act whether the Irish fishermen have the power of landing and drying; if they have, I should think itdoesextend to all the King's subjects; as the Act of 1782, restraining thebountyto Irish ships, does not touch the power of fishing. If they haveit not, no English Act now to be made can give it them; but if they have it, we may extend the bounty as we please.The reason they assign for wishing it is, that the herrings shift yearly from one part to another of the narrow seas, and that as the Irish have, by an English Act, the privilege of fishing on the Scotch coast, it is but just that the English and Scotch should fish on the Irish when the fish are there, as has been the case these two last years. The consideration presses, as the seamen now to be discharged will, of course, many of them return to Scotland to find employment, and the fishing cannot, as they state, be carried on at all, but by such indulgence as they apply for.Lord Glandon was with me to-day, to ask whether Coppinger is one of the new Judges, and, in that case, who he should bring in for his borough. He told me that he had sold the other seat to Sir W. Gleadowe. I did not dare ask whether he was engaged for the next Parliament, because it would have given too much of a hint of the dissolution. I therefore only said, that I did not believe the names were fixed for the three Judges.Lord Bellamont is outrageous about the Order, and has beenwith Townshendabout it; but not with me. I have sent your paper about Irvine to Lord Shelburne, but have had no answer. I enclose you a letter from Lord Clanricarde, with my answer. Lord Nugent has seen him, and says he is beyond measure flattered, and well-disposed towards you.I shall go to Lord Shelburne on Tuesday or Wednesday, and press him about the peerages, &c., &c. As to applying to Townshend, it is useless; for he has all the disposition in the world, but not a jot more.I own I think the 18th of March will be rather too soon after the installation, and will look too like a trick, and too much in the style of the St. Bartholemi: and yet, if you wait much longer, you will fall among their cursed assizes; besideswhich, new grounds for tests will spring up, whereas there are now none, absolutely none.Adieu, my dear brother,Believe me, ever most affectionately yours,W. W. G.I think our distant projects for the Government of Ireland, are something like Horace Walpole's "Butterfly and Rose."Hester is as well as possible.Pray be on your guard, as I have great reason to believe that your conduct is watched, and your language and conversation reported to Fox, by a man about the Castle, who keeps up a constant correspondence in that quarter. I need not name him to you.
MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.
Pall Mall, Feb. 15th, 1783.
My dear Brother,
I have this day received your letter of the 9th, and have the greatest satisfaction at that which you express respecting this long-agitated Bill. Since you wrote that, but before this time, you will have received a letter from me, enclosing a Bill proposed by Percy. I confess his dissent alarmed me a good deal at the time, ignorant as I was whether you might not see it in the same light. I am convinced now that it proceeds only from his resentment at not being consulted previous to its being fixed upon. The second reading stands now for Wednesday; but I doubt whether it can come on, as I understand the call previously fixed for that day is to be insisted upon. Before that time, I shall probably have received your letter, informing me whom you have consulted, as that is very material, particularly with regard to my being able to urge Grattan and Yelverton's authority against Fox and Fitzpatrick. At all events, however, I mean now to proceed in it on that day if I can, if not as early as possible, and tobringyou the account of the third reading in the House of Commons.
All this proceeds upon the idea that nothing of a different nature happens before; which I still think there is every reason to imagine. I cannot learn whether Fox and Lord North have settled their coalition so as to act together on Monday. Jenkinson is, I believe, secured to us; but at what price, and with what following, I am utterly ignorant; and on that the whole undoubtedly depends. As soon as I knowanything, you shall hear it in the most expeditious manner; but I do not give you my conjectures when they are merely such, because I know people at a distance are apt to give them more weight than they deserve, and I should be sorry to mislead you.
The Duke of Rutland is Lord Steward, and it is said he is called to the Cabinet. This, to my mind, argues great weakness indeed. In the House of Lords, Lord Pembroke moves the Address; in the House of Commons, T. Pitt. This, I think, does not show very great strength. The seconders I know not.
You have several times mentioned the Pension List; and I have as often forgot to tell you, that I inquired in the first instance without speaking to Pitt, and found that, whatever reform is to be made, rests wholly with Lord Shelburne, who appears to act in it on no system, but to add or to take away at his pleasure. Jackson and Jemmy Grenville remonstrated some days ago at the Treasury against signing any more till they saw that the act was to be complied with.
Upon the subject of the Fisheries, I have had a conversation with Hunter Blair, the member for Edinburgh. There has been a meeting of the Scotch members to support a Bill in Parliament to extend the bounty now given in England for the Scotch coast, to fish caught on the Irish coast, and to give the fishermen a power of landing and drying on the Irish, as on the Scotch coast. They went to Lord Shelburne, who referred them to me. I desired Blair to send me a copy of the memorial, and an abstract of the several British and Irish Acts on the subject.
The Irish are very ill done, as the two most material, in 1764 and 1776, are omitted. I do not find by any Irish Act whether the Irish fishermen have the power of landing and drying; if they have, I should think itdoesextend to all the King's subjects; as the Act of 1782, restraining thebountyto Irish ships, does not touch the power of fishing. If they haveit not, no English Act now to be made can give it them; but if they have it, we may extend the bounty as we please.
The reason they assign for wishing it is, that the herrings shift yearly from one part to another of the narrow seas, and that as the Irish have, by an English Act, the privilege of fishing on the Scotch coast, it is but just that the English and Scotch should fish on the Irish when the fish are there, as has been the case these two last years. The consideration presses, as the seamen now to be discharged will, of course, many of them return to Scotland to find employment, and the fishing cannot, as they state, be carried on at all, but by such indulgence as they apply for.
Lord Glandon was with me to-day, to ask whether Coppinger is one of the new Judges, and, in that case, who he should bring in for his borough. He told me that he had sold the other seat to Sir W. Gleadowe. I did not dare ask whether he was engaged for the next Parliament, because it would have given too much of a hint of the dissolution. I therefore only said, that I did not believe the names were fixed for the three Judges.
Lord Bellamont is outrageous about the Order, and has beenwith Townshendabout it; but not with me. I have sent your paper about Irvine to Lord Shelburne, but have had no answer. I enclose you a letter from Lord Clanricarde, with my answer. Lord Nugent has seen him, and says he is beyond measure flattered, and well-disposed towards you.
I shall go to Lord Shelburne on Tuesday or Wednesday, and press him about the peerages, &c., &c. As to applying to Townshend, it is useless; for he has all the disposition in the world, but not a jot more.
I own I think the 18th of March will be rather too soon after the installation, and will look too like a trick, and too much in the style of the St. Bartholemi: and yet, if you wait much longer, you will fall among their cursed assizes; besideswhich, new grounds for tests will spring up, whereas there are now none, absolutely none.
Adieu, my dear brother,Believe me, ever most affectionately yours,W. W. G.
I think our distant projects for the Government of Ireland, are something like Horace Walpole's "Butterfly and Rose."
Hester is as well as possible.
Pray be on your guard, as I have great reason to believe that your conduct is watched, and your language and conversation reported to Fox, by a man about the Castle, who keeps up a constant correspondence in that quarter. I need not name him to you.
On the 17th of February, the terms of the peace were brought under the consideration of both Houses of Parliament. To do Lord Shelburne justice, he defended them with considerable ability, as being the best the country had a right to expect, or, probably, could obtain. In the Lords, the Address was carried by an insignificant majority: in the Commons, Ministers were defeated. As it was upon the negotiation and settlement of the peace that Lord Shelburne had solely relied all along for the preservation of his Government, the effect of this defeat was decisive. It was the doom of the Ministry; and the bolt was launched by that strange combination which had been growing up in secret for several weeks, which was now openly avowed for the first time, and which was too powerful to be resisted. The coalition had, in fact, already been determined upon. Fox frankly stated it, and supported the Amendment, conjointly with Lord North, in aspeech of considerable force and vehemence. However the House might have been prepared by the rumours of the day for this result, it excited universal surprise, and not a little virtuous indignation. Mr. Powis observed that, it was "an age of strange confederations; amonstrous coalitionhad taken place between a noble Lord and an illustrious commoner—the lofty asserter of the prerogative had joined in an alliance with the worshippers of the majesty of the people." Such words had more purpose and meaning in those days than they would have in our own, and the startling antithesis rang through a debate as remarkable for invective on the one side, as for the confession of weakness on the other. Mr. Grenville and Lord Bulkeley communicated the issue to Lord Temple, in the following hasty notes.
MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.Feb. 18th, 1783, Ten,A.M.My dear Brother,I write these few lines by a messenger, to let you know that this morning, at seven o'clock, after a debate of fifteen hours, the House of Commons divided: 209 for the original Address upon the peace, and 224 for the Amendment.The Address was very cautiously worded, and by no means conveyed any strong approbation. The Amendment was merely to assure His Majesty that wewillconsider the preliminaries, and in the meantime we consider ourselves bound strictly to adhere to the articles to which, by the ratification, the national faith is pledged; with something about the loyalists.The Address was moved and seconded by T. Pitt and Wilberforce; the Amendment, by Lord John Cavendish and St.Andrew St. John. Lord North spoke next to them, in approbation of it. Fox avowed the coalition with Lord North, and was a good deal attacked upon it, particularly by Powis. Tom, to my infinite joy, did not speak. Jemmy spoke. Rigby spoke and voted with us.In the House of Lords, the Amendment was a strong censure: this was rejected, 69 to 55.Where this is to end, God knows!Je n'en scai rien.I am too much fatigued to be able to give you any particulars of the debate. Adieu.Ever yours,W. W. G.
MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.
Feb. 18th, 1783, Ten,A.M.
My dear Brother,
I write these few lines by a messenger, to let you know that this morning, at seven o'clock, after a debate of fifteen hours, the House of Commons divided: 209 for the original Address upon the peace, and 224 for the Amendment.
The Address was very cautiously worded, and by no means conveyed any strong approbation. The Amendment was merely to assure His Majesty that wewillconsider the preliminaries, and in the meantime we consider ourselves bound strictly to adhere to the articles to which, by the ratification, the national faith is pledged; with something about the loyalists.
The Address was moved and seconded by T. Pitt and Wilberforce; the Amendment, by Lord John Cavendish and St.Andrew St. John. Lord North spoke next to them, in approbation of it. Fox avowed the coalition with Lord North, and was a good deal attacked upon it, particularly by Powis. Tom, to my infinite joy, did not speak. Jemmy spoke. Rigby spoke and voted with us.
In the House of Lords, the Amendment was a strong censure: this was rejected, 69 to 55.
Where this is to end, God knows!Je n'en scai rien.I am too much fatigued to be able to give you any particulars of the debate. Adieu.
Ever yours,W. W. G.
LORD BULKELEY TO LORD TEMPLE.Berkeley Square,Tuesday Night, Feb. 18th, 1783.My dear Lord Temple,I conclude your brother William, and Jemmy Grenville, have given you exact accounts of the strange politics of the present moment. By a junction formed between Lord North and Fox, on Sunday evening last, the Address in our House was not carried; but the Amendment was, 224 to 208. The landed property was mostly with Government, and for the Address. There were, however, many country gentlemen for the Amendment; and among the rest, Sir William Williams. My good father-in-law voted in the majority, as a small return for my bringing him into Parliament, and he is patted on the back by George Byng, Plummer, &c., for thenoble, disinterested parthe takes, while I am looked upon as a black sheep; of which I console myself, and have reason to console myself, when I see the views and motives of some great political characters to be so profligate and abandoned. Lord North and Charles Fox acting together in public life, is a new and extraordinary scene! Many people say it was only forlast night; but I believe the arrangement has completely taken place, and the overthrow of the present Ministry is consequently certain. The Amendment in the Lords was very strong, and full of censure, and was negatived only by 14; the numbers being, 69 to 55.I cannot conceive it possible the Ministry can stand three days longer; I must therefore hope, whatever line you adopt, it may be upon the maturest reflection and deliberation, and not in a hurry. The new Ministry, if they can agree, will be very powerful in Parliament. At the same time, there are great numbers of members who are outrageous at the junction of Fox with Lord North, who, it is said, is to have all his friends provided for, to advance to the House of Peers, and to leave the Government to Charles Fox, Duke of Portland, &c.Sincerely yours,Bulkeley.The Primate proposed the prelateship to me. I will therefore call there to offer it in your name.
LORD BULKELEY TO LORD TEMPLE.
Berkeley Square,
Tuesday Night, Feb. 18th, 1783.
My dear Lord Temple,
I conclude your brother William, and Jemmy Grenville, have given you exact accounts of the strange politics of the present moment. By a junction formed between Lord North and Fox, on Sunday evening last, the Address in our House was not carried; but the Amendment was, 224 to 208. The landed property was mostly with Government, and for the Address. There were, however, many country gentlemen for the Amendment; and among the rest, Sir William Williams. My good father-in-law voted in the majority, as a small return for my bringing him into Parliament, and he is patted on the back by George Byng, Plummer, &c., for thenoble, disinterested parthe takes, while I am looked upon as a black sheep; of which I console myself, and have reason to console myself, when I see the views and motives of some great political characters to be so profligate and abandoned. Lord North and Charles Fox acting together in public life, is a new and extraordinary scene! Many people say it was only forlast night; but I believe the arrangement has completely taken place, and the overthrow of the present Ministry is consequently certain. The Amendment in the Lords was very strong, and full of censure, and was negatived only by 14; the numbers being, 69 to 55.
I cannot conceive it possible the Ministry can stand three days longer; I must therefore hope, whatever line you adopt, it may be upon the maturest reflection and deliberation, and not in a hurry. The new Ministry, if they can agree, will be very powerful in Parliament. At the same time, there are great numbers of members who are outrageous at the junction of Fox with Lord North, who, it is said, is to have all his friends provided for, to advance to the House of Peers, and to leave the Government to Charles Fox, Duke of Portland, &c.
Sincerely yours,Bulkeley.
The Primate proposed the prelateship to me. I will therefore call there to offer it in your name.
The next letter, written on the 19th, is very important. Mr. Grenville here collects the actual circumstances affecting the state of parties from the most authentic sources, and places them before Lord Temple for his consideration, in reference to the course he might deem it due to his own honour to take. We learn, from this statement, that the coalition was not yet finally arranged, although it had been carried into effective execution, as against the Ministry. It had been sufficiently cemented for the purpose of overthrowing one Government, but was not yet sufficiently consolidated for the establishment of another. It was one thing for Lord North and Fox to agree in their opposition to Lord Shelburne, andanother to unite upon the distribution of offices and a distinct line of policy. There were yet many old wounds to be healed, many differences of opinion to be reconciled, and much personal asperity to be soothed, before Fox and Lord North could satisfy the claims and resentments of their adherents, and combine in the formation of a Government. We learn also from this letter, that the King was strenuous in his support of Lord Shelburne (which had been obvious enough all throughout), and that he had now prevailed upon him, as he had before done with Lord North, to persevere in the face of the desperate phalanx that was arrayed against him. Government trusted to the divisions which were understood to be agitating the new Opposition, and which it was hoped would ultimately lead to its dissolution.
MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.Pall Mall, Feb. 19th, 1783.My dear Brother,I wrote to you yesterday morning by a messenger, in order that you might receive the earliest information of the event of our decision. I was then infinitely too much harassed by the fatigue and want of sleep to attempt entering into the detail of the debate, being indeed scarcely able to hold my pen at all. You will since have seen it at length in the papers. I therefore say nothing upon that subject.I have since at several different times sat down to write to you fully upon the situation of things here, and upon your letter of the 11th, which I received last night. But I find it so difficult to offer any reasonable conjecture upon the probable event, and things have taken so different a turn from that which you supposed, and on which you argue, that I havethought it better to confine myself to the following facts (being all I know) on the authenticity of which you may depend. From them you will yourself collect the different circumstances which may occur, upon which you will be [enabled] to form a decision very material to your future character, honour, and happiness. If any of these should take place before I hear from you again, you may depend on the earliest notice which I can give you.In the first place, Lord Shelburne never has made any offer whatever to Lord North.Secondly, the coalition between Lord North and Fox is very far from being formed; so far indeed, thatI knowthey have differed, not only on loaves and fishes, but on the subject of high and responsible office, and particularly about the Treasury itself, which was not settled this morning.Thirdly, the King is decidedly with Lord Shelburne. His opinion of Fox I apprehend not to be altered, nor his former resentment against Lord North much softened by their present conduct. Rigby and Jenkinson both voted with us: the latter avowedly excluded from the proposed arrangement.Fourthly, it is the intention of Ministry to wait the event of another question in the House of Commons. The subject is to be resumed on Friday, when this question will probably occur. And this they do in compliance with the ——'s wishes. The Duke of Grafton totters, but has not actually resigned.The division was very respectable on our side. Almost all the country gentlemen voted with us. Many of them are outrageous with Fox upon the idea of his coalition. Lord North's share of the 224 is computed from 160 to 170.Our Bill was read a second time to-day, but so early, that I was not down. Percival asked some question about his idea; you have never said anything to me upon it. It is committed for this day sev'nnight; before that time, chaos will probably have taken some form; in the meantime I cannot but fear themost serious and alarming consequences from the impression which this division must make in France, Spain, and above all, in Holland.Pray write as soon as you can, and believe meMost sincerely and affectionately yours,W. W. G.P.S. I shall see the Speaker to-morrow.I have delayed writing this so long, that I find it is too late to send it by the post, and it is not I think worth an express. I will therefore keep it for your tailor, who goes to-morrow, and tells me he rides post. If so, you will get it sooner; and if anything should occur before to-morrow evening, I shall be able to state it.20th.I hear nothing new to-day. Lord J. Cavendish moves tomorrow, and is supposed to intend censure. If so, we shall very probably see the new alliance divided, especially if their differences continue, which I know not. I have not seen Percy, but shall to-morrow; I called to-day, but he was out.Lord Beauchamp says he will not oppose our Bill; nor, I imagine, in this state of things, will Fox. I need not say that at this moment no business goes on, and consequently it is in vain to talk to them about the different points in your despatches.
MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.
Pall Mall, Feb. 19th, 1783.
My dear Brother,
I wrote to you yesterday morning by a messenger, in order that you might receive the earliest information of the event of our decision. I was then infinitely too much harassed by the fatigue and want of sleep to attempt entering into the detail of the debate, being indeed scarcely able to hold my pen at all. You will since have seen it at length in the papers. I therefore say nothing upon that subject.
I have since at several different times sat down to write to you fully upon the situation of things here, and upon your letter of the 11th, which I received last night. But I find it so difficult to offer any reasonable conjecture upon the probable event, and things have taken so different a turn from that which you supposed, and on which you argue, that I havethought it better to confine myself to the following facts (being all I know) on the authenticity of which you may depend. From them you will yourself collect the different circumstances which may occur, upon which you will be [enabled] to form a decision very material to your future character, honour, and happiness. If any of these should take place before I hear from you again, you may depend on the earliest notice which I can give you.
In the first place, Lord Shelburne never has made any offer whatever to Lord North.
Secondly, the coalition between Lord North and Fox is very far from being formed; so far indeed, thatI knowthey have differed, not only on loaves and fishes, but on the subject of high and responsible office, and particularly about the Treasury itself, which was not settled this morning.
Thirdly, the King is decidedly with Lord Shelburne. His opinion of Fox I apprehend not to be altered, nor his former resentment against Lord North much softened by their present conduct. Rigby and Jenkinson both voted with us: the latter avowedly excluded from the proposed arrangement.
Fourthly, it is the intention of Ministry to wait the event of another question in the House of Commons. The subject is to be resumed on Friday, when this question will probably occur. And this they do in compliance with the ——'s wishes. The Duke of Grafton totters, but has not actually resigned.
The division was very respectable on our side. Almost all the country gentlemen voted with us. Many of them are outrageous with Fox upon the idea of his coalition. Lord North's share of the 224 is computed from 160 to 170.
Our Bill was read a second time to-day, but so early, that I was not down. Percival asked some question about his idea; you have never said anything to me upon it. It is committed for this day sev'nnight; before that time, chaos will probably have taken some form; in the meantime I cannot but fear themost serious and alarming consequences from the impression which this division must make in France, Spain, and above all, in Holland.
Pray write as soon as you can, and believe meMost sincerely and affectionately yours,W. W. G.
P.S. I shall see the Speaker to-morrow.
I have delayed writing this so long, that I find it is too late to send it by the post, and it is not I think worth an express. I will therefore keep it for your tailor, who goes to-morrow, and tells me he rides post. If so, you will get it sooner; and if anything should occur before to-morrow evening, I shall be able to state it.
20th.
I hear nothing new to-day. Lord J. Cavendish moves tomorrow, and is supposed to intend censure. If so, we shall very probably see the new alliance divided, especially if their differences continue, which I know not. I have not seen Percy, but shall to-morrow; I called to-day, but he was out.
Lord Beauchamp says he will not oppose our Bill; nor, I imagine, in this state of things, will Fox. I need not say that at this moment no business goes on, and consequently it is in vain to talk to them about the different points in your despatches.
"Non ipsa si velit SalusServare prorsus hanc potest Rempublicam!"
"Non ipsa si velit SalusServare prorsus hanc potest Rempublicam!"
Adieu, my dear brother, you shall hear from me again on Saturday morning; but in the meantime pray let me hear from you as soon as you can.Ever yours,W. W. G.I just hear that the Duke of Grafton has resigned.
Adieu, my dear brother, you shall hear from me again on Saturday morning; but in the meantime pray let me hear from you as soon as you can.
Ever yours,W. W. G.
I just hear that the Duke of Grafton has resigned.
The King, who was not expected in town till the 19th, came up suddenly on the 18th, immediately on the receiptof the intelligence of the Ministerial defeat. On the 20th, General Cuninghame, writing to Lord Temple, informs him that the Duke of Grafton had resigned the day before, having intimated his intention to do so on the preceding Monday; that he had just learned that Mr. Fox and Lord North had adjusted their differences; and that the outline of an Administration had been actually agreed upon—the Devonshires to have the Treasury, probably in the person of the Duke of Portland, and Fox, Chancellor of the Exchequer. "The political world," adds General Cuninghame, "is in a ferment, and a few days must decide the complexion of a new Administration. Every one hopes and believes it will be on a broad bottom; and your Excellency will probably be at liberty to choose your situation." On the next day, the same correspondent announces that Lord Shelburne "is determined to stand the thunder of the House of Commons," on a resolution which was to be brought forward that night, to show that the peace was inadequate. He goes on to state that the issue of the debate was doubtful, and that Lord Shelburne was by no means disposed to give up without a struggle. "If the Opposition should be beat from there not being sufficient evidence before them, an inquiry will be instituted. No man at this hour pretends to say how the question will be decided. One may get a beat [bet?] of hundreds at either side. So many difficulties arise in arranging a new Administration, that I now understand Lord Shelburne will not easily yield his pretensions." In the few hours that elapsed since he had written the former letter, General Cuninghame had reason to doubt the correctness of his information respecting the validity of the agreement amongst theopponents of Government. "I now doubt," he observes, "very much of the possibility of arranging Mr. Fox's and Lord North's friends in such a manner as to make their system carry the appearance of permanency." The inconstancy of the reports in circulation reflected faithfully the uncertainty that hung over the action of all parties; and in that uncertainty lay the principal, perhaps the only, ground of hope that was left to Lord Shelburne.
That the negotiations in the meanwhile for a coalition had advanced to something like an intelligible point, and that the Duke of Portland looked with some confidence to the Treasury, is placed beyond all doubt by the following confidential communication, in which His Grace, in anticipation of the establishment of the new Ministry, proposes to Lord Temple his continuance in office as Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland. It would have been so utterly inconsistent with the high character of Lord Temple to have accepted this office under circumstances which he held to be injurious to the moral influence of the party leaders, and out of which no solid or durable system of administration could be rationally expected, that it will not excite much surprise to find his Lordship declining the flattering offer of the Duke of Portland.
It should be remembered, in reference to Lord Temple's reply to His Grace's "secret and confidential" communication, that the Duke of Portland had held the office of Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland under the second Rockingham Administration, and was, therefore, qualified to appreciate the inconveniences arising from frequent changes inthe Government. It is to that circumstance Lord Temple alludes, when he recalls to his Grace's recollection the "jealousy which had been felt in so many parts of Ireland at his resignation."