Paul:—Part of what you have said is, indeed, true: Christ atoned for our sins on Calvary's cross; He died that we might live, and that He might present us, pure and spotless, to the Father. But when He said, "It is finished," He did not mean that from that time henceforth and forever mankind would have nothing whatever to do but to believe in Him, and by that simple assent of their minds obtain eternal life and an everlasting inheritance in the Kingdom of His Father. He meant that His sufferings were at an end; He meant that He had drunk the bitter cup to the dregs; He meant that He had done the will of the Father, and had thus become, as I told the Hebrew Saints, the author of eternal salvation to all those who would obey Him. After Christ had risen from the dead He tarried for forty days with His disciples, during which time He taught them many things pertaining to the Kingdom of God. In giving them their commission, He said to them, "Go ye, therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I havecommanded you." (Matt. 28: 19-20.) So you see, Christ did not tell His Apostles to tell the people that all they had to do was to believe in Him: they were to teach them to observe all things whatsoever He had commanded them.
The World:—Did you write an epistle to the Ephesians?
Paul:—I did.
The World:—Here is an extract from it to which we desire to call your attention: "For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast." (Eph. 2: 8, 9.) Did you write that?
Paul:—I did.
The World:—What did you mean by writing in this way to the Ephesians?
Paul:—Merely this, and nothing more: the Ephesians, as well as many others, thought to justify themselves by the works of the law—by circumcision, for instance. They did not understand that the law had been fulfilled in Christ, and so they wanted to continue in the practice of dead works. These I condemned, but I never spoke one word against the commandments of the Lord Jesus Christ. On the contrary, I exhorted the people to perform good works. This is what I wrote to the Ephesians: "Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free." (Ephesians 6: 8.) I wrote practically the same thing to Titus. Here is an extract from my letter to him: "This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works." (Titus 3: 8.) Surely you do not think that I would write to the Ephesians one time condemning good works, and write afterwards to them and also to Titus commending good works? The works that I condemned were dead works, such as circumcision; but God forbid that I should advise anyone against keeping all the commandments of the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus said that he who would break one of the least of His commandments, and teach men to do so, the same would be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven.
The World:—That is all, Paul.
Latter-day Saints:—Perhaps you would like to hear the testimony of the Apostles John and James?
The World:—Certainly, if they can give us any additional light on the subject.
Latter-day Saints:—John, we would be pleased to haveyou tell The World whether you consider good works essential to salvation.
John:—I am more than pleased to speak on this important matter. As an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ, I taught the people to do the will of God as it had been laid down by the Savior.
The World:—It is recorded in the Gospel which bears your name that Christ said, "God so loved the world that he gave his only Begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life?"
John:—That is correct.
The World:—Did you not infer from that that all a man had to do in order to be saved was to believe in Christ?
John:—I did not; for Christ, just a little while before, had said to Nicodemus, who knew that Jesus was a Teacher sent of God: "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (John 3: 5.) There is something more than belief in those words.
The World:—Did you not teach the people that the blood of Jesus Christ would cleanse them from all sin?
John:—I did; but it was on the condition that they walked as Christ walked. This is what I said: "If we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (I John 1: 7.) After Christ had taught us the principles of the Gospel, He said to us: "If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them." (John 13: 17.) Again He said to us: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me the works that I do shall he do also." (John 14: 12.) The Lord gave me a vision when I was on the Isle of Patmos: "and I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." (Rev. 20: 12.) In the face of all these things, how could I believe that belief alone in Christ was all that was necessary for salvation?
The World:—The witness is excused.
The World:—James, were you commissioned by the Lord Jesus Christ to preach His Gospel?
James:—I was.
The World:—Did you not teach the people that all that was necessary in order to attain to salvation was belief in the Lord Jesus Christ?
James:—How dare I teach such doctrine when the Lord had instructed us to teach them to observe all things whatsoever He had commanded us?
The World:—Then, you believe that in order for a man to procure salvation he must have works with his faith?
James:—I do most assuredly. I taught the people that faith without works is dead. Surely you have read my epistle, wherein I said: "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, and one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. * * * But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? * * * For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." (James 2: 14-18, 20, 26.)
The World:—This is certainly strange doctrine to us. We have been taught from childhood that all we had to do to be saved was to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.
James:—You say that that is what the preachers have taught you?
The World:—It is. The only gospel that we have been taught is the gospel of Belief Alone. We have never been taught that we had to do anything towards our salvation.
James:—You have been deceived by false teachers, whom Paul prophesied would rise up in the last days. Here is the prophecy: "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth and shall be turned into fables." (II Timothy 4: 3, 4.)
The World:—Paul truly prophesied as you have said; but do you think his prophecy applies to the preachers of the present time?
James:—I would prefer that you answer that question yourselves. I believe that I can make this matter very plain to you. Supposing a man were to come to you at the present time and tell you that good works were not at all essential tosalvation, that all you had to do to be saved was to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ; and after he had gone out three Apostles of the Lord Jesus should come in and tell you that belief alone would not save you, that you would have to couple works with your faith, which of these men would you believe?
The World:—That scarcely needs an answer: we would, of course, believe the Apostles.
James:—I thought as much. Well, Paul, John and I have told you, just as plainly as it is possible for us to do, that belief alone will not save you: that you must have works as well as faith. And as you have told me that you believe our words, I would advise you, if you do not wish to deceive yourselves, to be doers of the word, as well as hearers of it.
The World:—Thank you, James. That is all.
Latter-day Saints:—The words of the Apostles are very plain, indeed; James told us that what the spirit is to the body so works are to faith; and that as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. We would advise you to accept the teachings of Christ and of His inspired Apostles.
The World:—In the face of all these Scriptures, we cannot see how our preachers can teach that good works are not essential to salvation.
Latter-day Saints:—We are not at all surprised at their doing so. If the Scriptures are to be fulfilled, we must expect to see men arise speaking perverse things, and drawing away disciples after them. It has been clearly proven that Christ and His Apostles taught that men would have to couple good works with their faith if they expected to get salvation. Now, any doctrine contrary to the teaching of Christ and His Apostles is the doctrine of men. But as it was in the days of the Savior, so it is today. Christ said of the people in His day: "This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoreth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." (Matt. 15: 8, 9.)
The World:—We are very thankful to you for calling our attention to these plain and precious truths, and the next time that we are visited by our ministers we will request them to tell us who gave them authority to preach that good works are not essential to salvation, when the Lord Jesus Christ and His Apostles taught that they are. For our ministers have most assuredly taught us that the Lord would not accept of any good works that we might do.
Latter-day Saints:—Then He has changed since the daysof the early Apostles. Do you not remember what happened to Cornelius? Cornelius was not like the people of the present day, for he believed in having good works with his faith; and instead of the Lord being displeased with him for performing good works, He sent an angel from heaven to tell him that his prayers and his alms had come up for a memorial before God. (Acts 10: 4.) Now, if all the ministers in the world told you that good works are not essential to salvation, all you would have to do would be to turn to this Scripture, and there you could show them how the Lord had so approved of a man's good works that He sent an angel from heaven to tell him that He had accepted of them, and to tell him of other things which were necessary for him to do. And, if that were not sufficient, you could refer them to the writings of the Apostle Peter, who said: "And besides this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; and to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; and to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things ye shall never fall: for so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." (II Peter 1: 5-11.)
The World:—You say, Faith in God and in His Son Jesus Christ is the first principle of the Gospel, and the second is Repentance?
Latter-day Saints:—Yes, the second principle of the Gospel is repentance.
The World:—What do you understand the term repentance to mean?
Latter-day Saints:—Repentance is a deep, sincere, heartfelt sorrow for sin, producing a reformation of life. It is, in a word, ceasing to do evil and learning to do well. Here is the Apostle Paul, who will be pleased to speak upon this important subject.
Paul:—I speak from experience concerning this most essentialprinciple of the Gospel of Christ. I was, as you all know, a most unrelenting persecutor of the Saints. I had even gone so far as to assent to the death of the faithful Stephen. I was on my way to Damascus, with letters from the high priest, authorizing me to bring bound to Jerusalem all those whom I found professing faith in Jesus Christ. I verily believed that I was doing God service. As I neared Damascus, the Lord checked me in my evil course and called me to repentance. He declared that by persecuting His saints I was persecuting Him, and told me to desist from my ungodly work. On hearing the word of the Lord, my soul was rilled with remorse, and I immediately turned round and, by a life consecrated to Christ and His cause, sought to atone for my past offences.
The World:—Was it the Lord, then, who led you to repentance?
Paul:—It was, for repentance is one of the most precious gifts of God to men. Through the atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ that choice gift has been purchased for poor, fallen humanity. But, I would have you understand, that God is jealous of all His gifts. He does not bestow them where they would not be appreciated. Repentance, like every other gift of God, has been promised to men on certain conditions.
The World:—Please tell us what these conditions are.
Paul:—One of the conditions is that men will manifest a desire to cease from sin, and to work righteousness in the sight of God. The Lord, speaking through Isaiah the prophet, made a promise unto the children of men that if they would seek Him they would find Him, and that if they would forsake their evil ways and thoughts and turn unto Him, He would pardon their transgressions. I quote from the writings of the prophet: "Seek ye the Lord while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon." (Isaiah 55: 6, 7.) Thus we see that the gift of repentance is promised men on condition that they seek the Lord and forsake their evil ways and thoughts. The Lord has assured us that He has no pleasure whatever in the death of a sinner. Speaking to the house of Israel by the mouth of the Prophet Ezekiel, He said: "Say unto them, as I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" "Again, when I say untothe wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right; if the wicked restore the pledge, given again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die. None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live." (Ezek. 33: 11, 14-16.) But, behold, a greater than Ezekiel has testified to the same thing. Here are the words of Jesus Christ, the Author of eternal salvation: "I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." (Luke 5: 32.) "I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance." (Luke 15: 7.)
The World:—Thank you, Paul, for your testimony.
Latter-day Saints:—We have another witness who was called by the Lord to preach repentance to the people of his generation.
The World:—We are ready to listen to his testimony.
The World:—What is your name?
Noah:—My name is Noah.
The World:—Were you called by the Lord to preach repentance unto the people in your day?
Noah:—I was. The Lord beheld that the wickedness of the children of men was great upon the earth. They had entirely turned away from the holy commandments which had been delivered unto them. They took pleasure in all manner of wickedness and abominations. They were, as are millions of the human family at the present time, "lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God." The Lord saw that the imaginations of their hearts were evil continually, and that they would surely perish if they did not turn from their wicked, reprobate ways. Therefore, He called me to be a preacher of righteousness, and commissioned me to go forth and cry repentance unto that wicked and perverse generation. I was commanded to build an ark, into which I was to take all those who would hearken unto my words and turn unto the Lord. I was obedient unto the heavenly commandment, and went forth among the people, crying repentance unto them, and warning them to flee from the wrath to come. I preached not alone by precept, but by my works also. I immediately set to work to construct the ark, and during the one hundredand twenty years while the ark was being prepared, I cried aloud and spared not. O, how my soul was grieved when I beheld the hardness of the hearts of the people, for I knew that God would not be mocked, that He would not strive with them forever, but that He would surely destroy them if they did not repent of their sins.
The World:—What success did you meet with, Noah, in your preaching?
Noah:—Practically none. My words seemed to them as idle tales. They spurned the message which I brought them from their merciful Creator. They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they married and were given in marriage up till the very day that I and my family—eight souls in all—entered the ark, and the Lord shut the door. Even now, I fancy I can hear their scoffs and scorns, their mockings and derisions, as we bade them a last farewell till we would meet them at the judgment bar of God. Then was the word of the Lord fulfilled, and His righteous judgments were poured out upon those wicked people and they perished from the earth. (Gen. 6: 7.) And now, in closing my testimony, I will say to you, that God has not changed: He is the same yesterday, today and forever; He does not look upon sin with the least degree of allowance, and just as sure as God is God, so sure will His judgments come upon the inhabitants of the earth in these latter-days if they do not repent and turn from their transgressions. "Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. (Luke 13: 3.)
The World:—That is all, Noah.
Latter-day Saints:—We now most respectfully ask you to listen to the testimony of another servant of the Lord.
The World:—What is your name?
Abraham:—My name is Abraham.
The World:—Are you prepared to give testimony concerning the matter which is before us?
Abraham:—I am.
The World:—We will listen to your testimony.
Abraham:—It grieves me to have to report that the inhabitants of the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah failed to profit by the sad fate which befell the people in the days of Noah. With the history of the past before them, showing clearly God's hatred of sin, they added day by day to the cup of their iniquities. Their abominations at last became unbearable to the Lord, and He decreed that He would destroy them fromthe face of the earth. I shall never forget the day that the Lord came to me in Mamre and informed me of His intention of destroying the cities of the plains and the inhabitants thereof. My soul was filled with sorrow, nevertheless I knew that all the judgments of the Lord were just. I besought Him to grant me favor in His sight, which He did. I asked Him if He would spare the city of Sodom provided fifty righteous souls were found there. He promised me that He would spare the city if it contained fifty righteous inhabitants. But alas! that number could not be found. I plead with the Lord again and again, and He finally consented to turn away His judgments from Sodom if ten God-fearing persons were found in the city. But ten such persons could not be found, and the Lord in His anger destroyed the inhabitants of those wicked cities and thus blotted out their iniquity from before His face. (Gen. 18: 19.) And as He spared not the cities of the plains, neither will He spare any other city or nation that forgets God. As Noah said, so say I, Woe unto the inhabitants of the earth if they do not repent. Behold, ere they are aware, the Spirit of God will cease to strive with them, and they shall, by their ungodly deeds, bring upon themselves swift destruction.
The World:—We have listened with interest to your testimony, Abraham. You are excused.
Latter-day Saints:—We will now introduce a witness who will show you the great blessings which came to the people of Nineveh when they turned from their evil ways and began to work righteousness in the sight of the Lord.
The World:—What is your name?
Jonah:—My name is Jonah.
The World:—Were you called by the Lord to preach repentance?
Jonah:—I was. The word of the Lord came to me on one occasion, saying: "Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me." (Jonah 1: 2.)
The World:—Did you do as the Lord commanded you?
Jonah:—I did not. I went down to Joppa, and there took ship for Tarshish. The Lord punished me for my disobedience, and then He said unto me the second time, "Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee." (Jonah 3: 2.) So I did as the Lord commanded me. As I entered the city I began to cry aloud, "Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown. So thepeople of Nineveh believed God and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them. For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes. And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing; let them not feed, nor drink water: but let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands. Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not? And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not." (Jonah 3: 5-10.)
Latter-day Saints:—The next witness whose evidence we desire you to hear is John, the forerunner of Christ.
The World:—Your name is John?
John:—It is.
The World:—Were you called by the Lord to preach repentance to the people of your generation?
John:—I was. I was sent before the Lord to prepare His way. I called upon the people to repent of their sins, for the Kingdom of Heaven was at hand. (Matt. 3: 1, 2.)
The World:—Were you able to bring many to repentance?
John:—Yes, many people of Judaea and Jerusalem, upon hearing the proclamation, repented, came forward and confessed their sins, and were baptized in the river Jordan. (Mark 1: 5.)
The World:—Are we to understand that confession of sins is essential?
John:—Such has been the teaching of the servants of the Lord in every dispensation. Without confession of sins repentance is incomplete. Here are the words of the inspired teachers: "He that covereth his sins shall not prosper, but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy." (Prov. 28: 13.) "If we say that we have no sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (I John 1: 8, 9.) But confession should be accompanied with a promise and determination to sin no more. To confess his sins before God will notbenefit a man unless his confession is accompanied with a determination to sin no more. He must covenant with the Lord that he is willing to forsake sin, and that in future he will, with His Divine assistance, yield to no evil, but will shun the very appearance of it, and keep himself unspotted from the world. God cannot be deceived, and He will not pardon those who merely confess their sins, and still make no effort to forsake them.
The World:—Repentance is, therefore, conditional?
John:—It is. Men must be willing to confess their sins and to forsake them. They must also be willing to forgive others. In fact, Christ told the people that His Father would not forgive them their trespasses if they in their hearts failed to forgive those who trespassed against them. These are His words: "If ye forgive men their trespasses, your Heavenly Father will also forgive you; but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." (Matt. 6: 14, 15.) And this forgiveness must be without limit. On one occasion Peter asked the Lord, "How oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him, till seven times?" The Master answered, "I say not unto thee, until seven times; but until seventy times seven." On another occasion He taught the disciples, saying, "If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him, and if he repent, forgive him. And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee saying, I repent, thou shalt forgive him." (Luke 17: 3, 4.) Nowhere are repentance, confession and forgiveness more beautifully portrayed than in Christ's parable of the prodigal son. After having wasted his substance in riotous living, and being brought down so low that he had to satisfy his hunger with swine's food, the prodigal at last came to himself. He thought of his father's home in which he had spent so many happy years, of the good things of the earth with which the tables had always been laden, of the hired servants who waited upon the family. The spirit of repentance entered his heart, and springing to his feet he exclaimed, "I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, and am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants. * * * But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him. * * * And the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet: and bring hither the fatted calf and kill it;and let us eat, and be merry: for this my sen was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found." (Luke 15: 18-20, 21-24.) In this parable is clearly exhibited the love and mercy of God. Verily, he that cometh to Him shall in nowise be cast out.
The World:—We will excuse the witness.
Latter-day Saints:—This is our case. We believe we have proved most conclusively that repentance is essential to salvation. "For this ye know," said the apostle, "that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the Kingdom of Christ and of God." (Eph. 5: 5.) The Lord has also said by the mouth of John the Revelator: "The fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Rev. 21: 8.) We, therefore, say unto all men, "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." (Gal. 6: 7.) "We have pointed out all the prominent principles connected with true repentance. And it can easily be seen by every honest heart, that God requires mankind to seek diligently to discern good from evil, and to ascertain what sins and evils they are guilty of; to be exercised with a Godly sorrow that they have ever sinned against so great and good a Being as God; to make suitable confession before God, for all past sins committed; and such a confession must be accompanied with a solemn covenant or promise to sin no more; and the heart should be fixed and immovable in this covenant. All persons who will do these things will have a measure of the Spirit of Christ resting upon them, imparting humility, and meekness, and lowliness of heart. But still this repentance does not guarantee to them a remission of sins; it only prepares the heart to obey properly a great and holy ordinance which God has instituted expressly for the remission of sins. We mean the ordinance of baptism."
The World:—Do you believe and teach that water baptism is essential to salvation?
Latter-day Saints:—We do. Water baptism was commanded by the Lord, and we do not teach people that they can get into the Kingdom of Heaven by breaking the Lord's commandments.
The World:—Well, we have been taught that baptism isnot at all essential to salvation, that it is simply an outward sign of an inward grace.
Latter-day Saints:—Baptism was instituted before the foundation of the world. It is an ordinance of the everlasting Gospel, and by obedience to that ordinance, coupled with faith, and sincere repentance, the Lord has promised mankind a remission of their sins. "We have the testimony of many eminent writers that baptism was practiced by the Jews, as a religious ceremony, ages anterior to the birth of our Savior. It is said that the Jews not only circumcised, but baptized all new converts to their faith; and that in the days of Solomon great numbers were proselyted from the surrounding nations, and were baptized. It is by some supposed that the Jews, before Christ, did not baptize those of Jewish descent, but only such as were proselyted from foreign nations. But it is certain that baptism was administered, under the law of Moses, unto numerous multitudes of Jews; for John the Baptist, who was the legal heir of the Aaronic Priesthood, through the lineage of his fathers, did administer this rite to thousands of the Jews for the remission of their sins; and this, too, at a time when the law of Moses was in full force. Even Jesus Himself had not yet been baptized. None of the old institution was yet abolished; and no new institutions were, as yet, introduced. And while under the strictest obligations to keep the old law, John was baptizing; and there went out to him Jerusalem and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, and were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins." (Matt. 3: 5, 6.) We ask you to hear the testimony of Paul on this subject.
The World:—We will be pleased to hear the Apostle's evidence.
The World:—Paul, did you teach the people that water baptism was practiced by the Israelites before the days of John the Baptist?
Paul:—I did. Water baptism is one of the ordinances of the Gospel—the true Gospel, which embraces one Lord, one faith and one baptism. That Gospel was preached to the people in the days of Abraham; and also to the Israelites under Moses. Have you not read what I wrote to the Galatians, the Hebrews and the Corinthians concerning this matter? I quote from my epistles: "And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the Gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed." (Gal. 3: 8.) "For unto us was the Gospel preached, as wellas unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it." (Heb. 4: 2.) "Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;and were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea." (I Cor. 10: 1, 2.)
The World:—Paul, you have clearly proved the antiquity of baptism. We will excuse you for the present.
Latter-day Saints:—We can prove to you beyond the possibility of doubt that water baptism is essential to man's salvation. As you know, nearly all the Christian sects believe in and practice some form of baptism, but, with two or three exceptions, none of them believe that that ordinance aids, even in the slightest degree, in the salvation of the souls of men. This is a mistake. Baptism is one of the first ordinances of the Gospel, and is as essential to man's salvation as any other ordinance that God has ever revealed.
The World:—We are ready to hear your witnesses on this matter.
Latter-day Saints:—The first witness that we will introduce is John the Baptist.
The World:—Your name is John?
John:—It is.
The World:—You told us on a former occasion that you were called of God to go before Christ and prepare His way.
John:—That is correct. You will find it so recorded in John's Gospel. (John 1: 6.)
The World:—What did God command you to preach to the people?
John:—Repentance and water baptism.
The World:—You say that God sent you to baptize with water?
John:—He did. It is recorded in the scriptures: "And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost." (John 1: 33.)
The World:—What did you tell the people was the object of water baptism?
John:—I told them that it was for the remission of sins. Mark and Luke bear me witness. The former says: "John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remissions of sins." (Mark 1: 4.) Lukesays: "And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins." (Luke 3: 3.)
The World:—After what manner did you baptize?
John:—As I was commanded by the Lord—by immersion. I took the repentant believers down to the river Jordan, and there I baptized them by immersing them in the water.
The World:—Then you do not believe in infant sprinkling?
John:—I do not. It is contrary to the teaching of Christ and His Apostles. There was but one form of baptism known to them, that was baptism by immersion for the remission of sins. On one occasion when people applied to me for baptism, I had to take them to Aenon, near to Salim, "because there was much water there." (John 3: 23.) Had I considered sprinkling just as acceptable to God as immersion, I would not have taken the people to Aenon to be baptized.
The World:—You baptized Jesus Christ?
John:—I did.
The World:—When Christ applied to you for baptism what did you say?
John:—I said, "I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?" Then Jesus said to me, "Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness." (Matt. 3: 14, 15.)
The World:—You say that Christ requested you to baptize Him in order that He might fulfill all righteousness?
John:—He did. And if the Son of God, being holy, had need to be baptized with water that He might fulfill all righteousness, how much more need have mortal men, they being unholy, to be baptized? According to the words of the Savior a man cannot fulfill all righteousness if he fails to comply with the ordinance of baptism. I told the Pharisees and lawyers that they had rejected the counsel of God against themselves by not being baptized. (Luke 7: 30.) And as it was in those days, so it is today—all those who slight this command of the Lord, and refuse to be baptized by immersion for the remission of their sins, will, like the Pharisees and lawyers, reject the counsel of God against themselves.
The World:—The witness is excused. (To the Latter-day Saints.) When was the method of baptism changed?
Latter-day Saints:—In the third century after Christ, in the case of a man named Novatian. Gahan, a Catholic historian, writing of him, says: "Having embraced the faith, he continued a catechumen, till, falling dangerously ill, andhis life being despaired of, he was baptized in bed, not by immersion, which was then the usual method, but by infusion, or pouring on of water."
The World:—Who is your next witness?
Latter-day Saints:—Our next witness is the Jewish ruler Nicodemus.
The World:—Nicodemus, had you an interview with Christ?
Nicodemus:—I had. I called upon Him one night and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest except God be with him." (John 3: 2.)
The World:—What did Christ say in reply?
Nicodemus:—He told me that I would have to be born again—born of water and of the Spirit. He spoke most emphatically concerning this matter, saying, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee,except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God." (John 3: 5.)
The World:—What did you interpret the words "born of the water and of the Spirit" to mean?
Nicodemus:—I interpreted them to mean the baptism of water and of the Holy Spirit. Christ was born of the water and of the Spirit when He was baptized; His disciples were born of the water and of the Spirit, and the Savior declared that except a man receive this new birth he cannot enter the Kingdom of God.
The World:—We have been taught that the water which Jesus spoke of was the word of God.
Nicodemus:—He did not tell me that. I am sure that if Christ had meant the word of God He would have said so. Christ did not say one thing and mean another. Why should men put false sentiments into the mouth of the Son of God? That you may see the absurdity of this interpretation which men have put upon the words of Christ, I will make a few quotations from the scriptures, substituting the words "word of God" for the word "water": "And Jesus when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the word of God." "And John was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there were much words of God there." "And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the word of God. * * * And when they were come up out of the word of God." u Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid the word of God, that these should not be baptized.""That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of the word of God by the word."
The World:—This certainly makes the interpretation appear most absured. But, do you consider water baptism essential to salvation?
Nicodemus:—I do, most assuredly. I am aware that this doctrine sounds as strange to the people in these days as it did at first to me. But it is, nevertheless, true. It was not Christ's doctrine, it was the doctrine of the Father who had sent Him, and who had sent John also with a similar message. "My doctrine is not mine," said the Savior, "but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself." (John 7: 16, 17.) Again He said, "For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment what I should say and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting; whatsoever I speak, therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak." (John 12: 49, 50.) Therefore, when Christ impressed upon me the necessity of a new birth, of the water and of the Spirit, He taught me a commandment which He had received from His Father, and which He said was life everlasting. I am surprised that anyone possessed of ordinary intelligence could think for a moment that God, the fountain of all truth and wisdom, would send His Son down to the earth to teach the children of men ordinances which were not necessary for them to observe. Nor can I think of anything more foolish than for Christ to send out missionaries into the world to teach people to observe an ordinance, which, when they had obeyed it, they were no better off than they were before. How dare anyone charge the Almighty with such folly?
The World:—We have no further questions to ask the witness.
Latter-day Saints:—Our next witness is the Apostle Peter.
The World:—Were you commissioned by the Lord Jesus Christ to preach His Gospel?
Peter:—I was. In sending His Apostles forth to preach the Gospel, the Lord said unto them, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: andlo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world." (Matt. 28: 19, 20.)
The World:—Baptism is, therefore, a commandment of the Lord?
Peter:—It is, and Christ has said, that he that breaks one of the least of His commandments and teaches men to do so, the same shall be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. (Matt. 5: 19.)
The World:—Do you believe water baptism to be essential to man's salvation?
Peter:—I do. If it had not been so considered by Christ, He would not have commanded us to preach it. Why send us out to tell people to observe an ordinance of the Gospel which it mattered not with God whether they observed or not? That would not give the Lord credit for possessing as much intelligence as men; for no man among you would command his servants to do a certain work when it mattered not whether it was done or left undone. If baptism is not essential to salvation, then it was needless on the part of Christ to command His Apostles to preach it. It was a waste of time for us to do so, for while we were preaching baptism and administering the ordinances we could have employed the time in preaching principles which are essential to men's salvation. You will observe, Christ told us to baptize the people in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. Now, do you think for a moment that we would have used the names of the Holy Trinity in an ordinance in which there was no profit? Did Christ not know that it was written in the Scriptures, "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain." If you say that baptism is not essential to salvation, you make the Savior of the world a transgressor of God's holy commandment, for what could be more vain than to use the names of the Holy Trinity in an ordinance in which there were no virtue, no salvation?
The World:—You, therefore, taught the people that it was necessary for them to be baptized?
Peter:—I did. With the rest of the Apostles I stood up on the day of Pentecost before a great multitude of people and declared unto them the message of life and salvation which Christ had given us to deliver. We spoke under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and thousands of people were pricked in their hearts, and cried out saying, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"
The World:—What did you tell them?
Peter:—I said unto them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christfor the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2: 38.) The same day three thousand souls were added to the Church. There was a most devout man named Cornelius, who resided in Caesarea, who prayed to God constantly and gave much alms to the people. His prayers and alms came up as a memorial before God, and He sent an angel to Cornelius to tell him to send for me to Joppa, and that I would tell him words whereby he and his house should be saved. Now, you will remember, that a short time previous to this I had taught thousands of people baptism for the remission of sins. If I had taught them false doctrine do you think the Lord would have sent an angel to Cornelius to advise him to send for me to teach him the plan of salvation? I told Cornelius the same things that I declared to the people on the day of Pentecost, and commanded him and his household to be baptized in the name of the Lord. (Acts 10: 48.)
The World:—That is all, Peter.
Latter-day Saints:—We now submit for your consideration the testimony of the Apostle Paul.
The World:—What is your belief concerning water baptism?
Paul:—I believe and have taught that it is an essential ordinance of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. When Jesus appeared to me on the way to Damascus, He called me to repentance and told me to go into Damascus and that I would there be told of all things that were commanded of me to do. The Lord then instructed His servant Ananias to go to me and to tell me toarise and be baptised and wash away my sins, calling on the name of the Lord. (Acts 22: 16.) So, you see, baptism for the remission of sins is not my doctrine, but the Lord's. So important is this ordinance in the sight of the Eternal Father that He withheld the Holy Ghost from twelve devout Ephesians until I had re-baptized them. They had been baptized previously, but not by one holding authority from God, and so their baptism was not valid in His sight. How dare I teach the children of men that baptism is not essential to salvation when He who spake as never man spake had declared, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."
The World:—We will excuse the witness.
Latter-day Saints:—We have adduced enough evidence toconvince every fair-minded person that water baptism is essential to his salvation. We have shown that it was instituted by the Lord from the beginning of the world for the remission of sins. The Israelites received the ordinance under the hands of Moses, and were all baptized in the cloud and in the sea. John, the forerunner of Messiah, was sent by God topreach baptism for the remission of sins. He baptized multitudes of people in the river Jordanfor the remission of their sins. Christ the Son of God received baptism at the hands of John in order that He, too, mightfulfill all righteousness. Jesus told the Jewish ruler that except a man wereborn of water and of the Spirithe could not enter the Kingdom of God. He commanded His disciples to "Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost." Peter, while preaching under the influence of the Holy Ghost, told the people on the day of Pentecost to repent andbe baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sins. The Lord Himself sent Ananias to Saul of Tarsus to tell him to arise andbe baptised and wash away his sins. We preach the same doctrine that was taught by Christ and His Apostles, and say unto you, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ,for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
The World (to the Latter-day Saints):—According to the doctrine of your Church a man must be born of water and of the Spirit before he can enter the Kingdom of God.
Latter-day Saints:—In this we simply reiterate what Jesus said to the anxious Jewish ruler, Nicodemus. These are His words: "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God." (John 3: 5.) These are the words of the Son of God, and whenever He speaks all discussion should be closed.
The World:—You explained to us in the last examination that being born of the water means being baptized in water: what are we to understand by being born of the Spirit?
Latter-day Saints:—To be born of the Spirit means to be baptized with the Holy Ghost. All men must receive these two baptisms before they can become the sons of God. By being born of the flesh we become the sons of men: by being born of the water and of the Spirit we become the sons of God. We desire you to hear the testimony of John the Baptist on this important matter.
The World:—John, you told us on two former occasions that you were sent of God to prepare the way for His Only Begotten Son. What did you teach the people they had to do in order to be accepted of the Lord and admitted into His Kingdom?
John:—I told them that they would have to repent, and be baptized in water for the remission of their sins. I promised the people that, if they would do these things, when Christ would come He would baptize them with a higher baptism—the baptism of the Holy Ghost and of fire. (Matt. 3: 11.)
The World:—You baptized the Christ?
John:—I did. The ordinance was performed in the river Jordan. As soon as Jesus came up out of the water the heavens were opened and the Spirit of God descended like a dove and rested upon Him, and then was heard the voice of God out of heaven, saying, "Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." (Mark 1: 9-11.) Thus was Jesus born of the water and of the Spirit, and all men must follow the example of the Redeemer of the world if they expect to become heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ.
The World:—Did you promise the Holy Ghost to all those whom you baptized?
John:—I did. I said to them, "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire." (Matt. 3: 11.)
The World:—You are excused, John.
Latter-day Saints:—Our next witness is the Apostle John.
The World:—You are an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ?
John:—I am.
The World:—John the Baptist promised those who believed in Christ and who had repented and been baptized for the remission of their sins that the Messiah would baptize them with the Holy Ghost and with fire. Did you receive that higher baptism?
John:—I did, but not until Christ had fulfilled His mission and had returned to His Father. While the Savior was with us He was our Teacher, our Guide and our Comforter; but when He ascended up on high we received from the Father the other Comforter, the Holy Ghost, who was toabide within us forever. During His sojourn with us, Jesus referred quite often to the Divine Spirit which His Father would confer upon us after His departure. On different occasions He said to us: "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." (John 14: 26.) "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me." (John 15: 26.) "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you." (John 16: 13, 14.) "And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto the magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say: for the Holy Ghost shall teach you in that same hour what ye ought to say. (Luke 12: 11, 12.) "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away; for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you." (John 16: 7.) "And, behold, I send the promise of my Father unto you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high." (Luke 24: 49.)
The World:—How was the Holy Ghost conferred upon the people?
John:—Through prayer and by the imposition of hands.
The World:—Did you receive the Holy Ghost in this manner?
John:—I did, and so did the rest of the Apostles. Jesus said to us, "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever." (John 14: 16.) He led us out as far as Bethany, where He lifted up His hands and blessed us; He then breathed on us, and said, "Receive ye the Holy Ghost." (Luke 24: 50; John 20: 22.)
The World:—That is all, John.
Latter-day Saints:—Our next witness, the Apostle Peter, is ready to be examined.
The World:—We will listen to his testimony.
The World:—Did you also receive from Christ the promise of the Holy Ghost?
Peter:—I did. After His resurrection, the Lord appeared to us as we were assembled together, and commanded us that we should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, "which," said He, "ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence." (Acts 1: 4, 5.)
The World:—When did you receive the gift of the Holy Ghost?
Peter:—On the day of Pentecost. The Apostles were assembled together, and suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it rilled all the house where we were sitting. And there appeared unto us cloven tongues like of as fire, and it sat upon each of us. And we were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave us utterance. (Acts 2: 2-4.)
The World:—Were the Apostles the only ones who received the Holy Ghost?
Peter:—They were not. The Lord is not a respecter of persons; in every nation he that feareth God and keepeth His commandments is accepted of Him. John assured all his baptized converts that they would receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost. After being endowed with the Divine Spirit, the Apostles stood up before a great multitude of people and bore witness of the resurrection of Christ. Thousands of people, on beholding the glorious outpouring of the Holy Ghost, and perceiving the power by which we spake, were pricked in their hearts, and cried out, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" This is what I said unto them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." (Acts 2: 38, 39.)
The World:—Did Christ give you authority to confer the Holy Ghost upon those who believed on your words and obeyed the Gospel?
Peter:—He did, and also to the other Apostles. He said to us: "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth." (Acts 1: 8.) After His resurrection the Lord appeared unto us and commissioned us to go forth and preach the Gospel. "Go ye into all the world," said He, "and preach the Gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he thatbelieveth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; in my name they shall cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover." (Mark 16: 15-18.)
The World:—Did the people who accepted the Gospel of Christ in the days of your ministry receive the gift of the Holy Ghost?
Peter:—They did. The Lord confirmed the words of His servants by pouring out His Holy Spirit upon those who repented of their sins and who were baptized by Divine authority for the remission of their sins.
The World:—How was the Holy Ghost conferred?
Peter:—By prayer and by the imposition of the hands of authorized servants of God.
The World:—Can you refer us to an occasion when the Holy Ghost was given to believers?
Peter:—On one occasion Philip went down to Samaria and preached the Gospel to the inhabitants of that city. "And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them; and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed. * * * When they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the Kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women." (Acts 8: 5-7, 12.) While Philip had authority to preach the Gospel, and also to baptize, he did not have authority to confer the Holy Ghost. He, therefore, sent word to the Apostles at Jerusalem, acquainting them of the work which he had performed in Samaria, and requesting them to send men endowed with higher authority, to confirm the baptized converts and to pray for them that they might receive the Holy Ghost. John and I were sent down to Samaria, and when we met with the converts there we prayed for them, after which we laid our hands upon them, and the Holy Ghost came upon them. (Acts 8: 14-17.)
The World:—We will now excuse you, Peter.
The World:—We have been taught that the signs spoken of by Peter were only to follow the Apostles and the believers in that age; that they were given to assist in establishing Christianity; and that when Christianity became established they were done away with and were no longer needed.
Latter-day Saints: We know that that is the teaching ofprofessed ministers of the Gospel, but it is in direct opposition to the teaching of Christ and His Apostles. "Christ places His preaching, believing, salvation, and the signs that were to follow, all on an equal footing; where one was limited, the other must be; where one ceased, the other did. If the language limits the signs to the Apostles, it limits salvation to them also. If no others were to have these signs follow them then no others were to believe, and no others were to be saved. If the language limits these signs to the first age or ages of Christianity, then it limits salvation to the first ages of Christianity, for one is as precisely as much limited as the other; and where one is in force, the other is; and where one ends, the other must stop. As well might we say, preaching of the Gospel is no longer needed; neither faith nor salvation; these were only given at first to establish the Gospel, as to say, the signs are no longer necessary, they were only given at first to establish the Gospel."
The World—We will now excuse you, Peter.
Latter-day Saints:—We have another witness, the Apostle Paul.
The World:—We are ready to hear his testimony.
The World:—Paul, after your conversion did you receive the gift of the Holy Ghost?
Paul—I did. Ananias, being sent of the Lord, came to me in Damascus, and placing his hands upon me, said: "Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou earnest, has sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost." (Acts 9: 17.)
The World:—Did anyone ever receive the Holy Ghost under your administration?
Paul:—Yes, many. On one occasion, while Apollos was at Corinth, I passed through the upper coasts and came to Ephesus. There I found certain disciples who told me that they had been baptized. I asked them if they had received the Holy Ghost since they believed, and they answered that they had not—that they had not even heard of the Holy Ghost. I asked them with what baptism they had been baptized, and they replied, "Unto John's baptism." I told them that John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people that they should believe on Him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Ithen laid my hands upon them and prayed for them that the Lord would bestow upon them His Holy Spirit. The Lord hearkened unto my prayer and acknowledged my administration, for the Holy Ghost came upon them and they spake with tongues and prophesied. (Acts 19: 1-6.) Timothy also received this precious gift by the laying on of my hands. (II Tim. 1: 6.)
The World:—How does the Holy Ghost operate upon those who receive it?
Paul:—In divers ways. "There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; to another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; to another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues; but all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will." (I Cor. 12: 4-11.) All these gifts, and many others, were enjoyed by the primitive Christians, and were inseparably connected with the true Gospel of Christ.
The World:—Did you not write an epistle to the Corinthian saints in which you told them that the gifts of prophecy, tongues, etc., would cease?
Paul:—I did. I told them that such gifts would cease when that which is perfect should come. I read from my epistle: "Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. * * * For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as I am known." (I Cor. 13: 8-10, 12.) I wrote an epistle to the Ephesians, in which I told them that the spiritual gifts which Christ had placed in His Church were to continue "till we all come to the unity of the faith." The following is an extract from my epistle: "Wherefore he saith, when he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men." "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge ofthe Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ." (Eph. 4: 8, 11-13.)
The World:—The witness is excused. (To the Latter-day Saints):—Do the members of your Church enjoy the gifts of the Holy Ghost?
Latter-day Saints:—They do. "We believe in the gifts of the Holy Ghost being enjoyed now as much as they were in the days of the Apostles; we believe that the revelations of the Holy Ghost are necessary to organize the Priesthood; that no man can be called to fill any office in the ministry without it; we also believe in prophecy, in tongues, in visions, in revelations, in healings; and that these things cannot be enjoyed without the Holy Ghost; we believe that holy men of old spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost, and that holy men in these days speak by the same power; we believe in its being a comforter and a witness-bearer; that it brings things past to our remembrance, leads us into all truth, and shows us of things to come; we believe that no man can know that Jesus is the Christ but by the Holy Ghost."
The World:—Have you received authority from the Lord to confer the Holy Ghost upon those who comply with the laws and ordinances of the Gospel?
Latter-day Saints:—We have. The authority was conferred upon Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery by the Apostles Peter, James and John.
The World:—Have the gifts of the Holy Ghost been made manifest in this dispensation?
Latter-day Saints:—They have. On the evening of March 27th, 1836, Joseph Smith met the quorums of the Priesthood in the Kirtland Temple and instructed them respecting the ordinance of the washing of feet, and in relation to the spirit of prophecy. He called upon the congregation to speak, and not to fear to prophesy good concerning the Saints; "for if you prophesy," said he, "the falling of these hills, and the rising of the valleys, the downfall of the enemies of Zion, and the rising of the Kingdom of God, it shall come to pass. Do not quench the Spirit, for the first one that shall open his mouth shall receive the Spirit of prophecy." Brother George A. Smith arose, and began to prophesy, when a noise was heard like the sound of a rushing mighty wind, which filled the temple, and all the congregation simultaneously arose, being moved upon by an invisible power; many began to speak in tongues, and prophesy; others saw glorious visions; and the Temple was filled with angels, which fact the Prophet declared to the congregation. The people of the neighborhoodcame running together, hearing an unusual sound within, and seeing a bright light like a pillar of fire resting upon the Temple, and were astonished at what was transpiring." (Compendium pp. 267-8.)
The World:—Do you promise the Holy Ghost to all those who repent and obey the Gospel which you preach?
Latter-day Saints:—We do. In sending forth His servants in these last days to proclaim the glad tidings of the Gospel of peace, the Lord said: "Therefore go ye into all the world, and whatsoever place ye cannot go into ye shall send, that the testimony may go from you into all the world unto every creature. And as I said unto mine apostles, even so I say unto you, for you are mine apostles, even God's high priests; ye are they whom my Father hath given me—ye are my friends; therefore, as I said unto mine apostles I say unto you again, that every soul who believeth on your words, and is baptized by water for the remission of sins, shall receive the Holy Ghost; and these signs shall follow them that believe. In my name they shall do many wonderful works; in my name they shall cast out devils; in my name they shall heal the sick; in my name they shall open the eyes of the blind, and unstop the ears of the deaf; and the tongue of the dumb shall speak; and if any man shall administer poison unto them it shall not hurt them; and the poison of a serpent shall not have power to harm them. But a commandment I give unto them, that they shall not boast themselves of these things, neither speak them before the world, for these things are given unto you for your profit and for salvation. Verily, verily I say unto you, they who believe not on your words, and are not baptized in water, in my name, for the remission of their sins, that they may receive the Holy Ghost, shall be damned, and shall not come into my Father's Kingdom, where my Father and I am. And this revelation unto you, and commandment, is in force from this very hour upon all the world, and the gospel is unto all who have not received it." (Doc. and Cov. 84: 62-75.) All who will, with honest hearts, receive the message which we bear—the message that God the Father has in these last days restored through the ministration of angels, the everlasting Gospel—shall receive a testimony by the manifestations of the Holy Spirit of its Divine authenticity. And these manifestations shall be such as to give them perfect knowledge of its truth.
Latter-day Saints:—Before proceeding further, permit usto ask you a question or two: Have we not proved, and that, too, beyond all controversy, that a living, active and abiding faith in God the Father, and in His Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ, is indispensable to man's salvation?
The World:—You have shown that, in order for a man to please God, not to mention being saved of Him, he must have faith in Him, and in His Son Jesus Christ, the Savior of the world.
Latter-day Saints:—Have we not proven most conclusively that men must repent of their sins and turn away from their iniquities before they can gain access to the Kingdom of God?
The World:—Sufficient evidence has been given to prove that sincere and genuine repentance must be exhibited in the lives of all men who hope for salvation, for the decree has gone forth that no unclean thing can enter the Kingdom of Heaven.