1512. Have you sold anything else besides tea which you got from the shop?-Yes, cottons and some moleskins which I had to take out of the shop in order to pay my rent.
1513. I don't see any moleskins marked here?-No; they are not in that book.
1514. Had you any other book?-No; it was when I sold my own shawls that I took the moleskins.
1515. You say you buy your own wool: where do you buy it?- There is a woman who spins it for me. I buy it in worsted.
1516. Do you pay her for it in money?-Yes.
1517. And you sell your shawls to any merchant who will buy them?-Yes.
1518. How are you paid for them?-I sold the last two to Miss Robina Leisk.
1519. Is she a merchant in Lerwick?-Yes.
1520. Has she a shop?-Yes.
1521. How were you paid for these shawls?-I got £2, 14s. for the two-27s. apiece.
1522. Were you paid in money?-No.
1523. Were they fine shawls?-Yes
1524-5. Did you get any part of that sum in money?-14s.
1526. Was that all you asked for in money?-Yes.
1527. And you got the rest in goods?-Yes.
1528. Did you want these goods for your own use?-No; I took some moleskins to sell.
1529. Was that because you could not get the rest in money?- Yes.
1530. Did you ask for more in money?-She did not want to give me more.
1531. Did you ask for more?-I did not ask for it, because I knew I would not get it.
1532. Did she say she would give you that much, without your asking?-Yes.
1533. What did you do with the moleskins?-I sold them.
1534. How much of them did you take?-21/2 yards.
1535. What was the price of them?-2s. 8d. a yard.
1536. Was there anything else you bought for the purpose of selling?-Yes; I bought some cotton.
1537. Have you sold it?-Yes.
1538. Did you get as much for it as you paid?-Yes.
1539. Did you get a little more?-No; no more. I thought it a favour to get the same price.
1540. Did you know any person who would take these goods from you at the time you got them, or did you buy them on the chance of selling them?-No; I knew a person who would buy them from me.
1541. Is that the way you generally deal when you have shawls to sell?-Yes.
1542. You get some things that you want, and some things that your neighbours want, and as much as you can in money?-Yes.
1543. Do you often get tea for the purpose of selling it?-I get it when I ask it; but I only ask it when I know of a person who will take it from me for what they have done for me.
1544. How do you purchase the provisions-the meal and bread- that you want?-When I sell anything that I get for my work, I buy them with the money.
1545. But if you don't have the money, what do you do?-I don't have money at the time, I go down to a shop and get it from them until I can get the money to pay for it.
1546. What did you do with the 14s. that you got for the shawls from Miss Leisk?-It would go for worsted to make other things.
1547. Have you always to pay money for your worsted?-Yes.
1548. You don't get provisions, either meal or bread, at the shops where you sell your shawls?-No.
1549. Is that never done in Lerwick?-No; I never had it done to me. Those who buy the shawls keep nothing of that kind.
1550. Would you be content to take a lower price [Page 31] for your shawls if you were paid for them in money instead of goods?-Yes.
1551. Have the merchants ever offered you a lower price for your shawls in money?-No.
1552. Have you ever asked them to do that, or tried to get them to do it?-I knew that I need not try that, because I would not have got it.
1553. Do you manage to sell many of your shawls privately in the town, or to visitors in the summer?-No.
1554. Is there not a good deal of that done in Lerwick?-I believe some people do that, but I don't do it.
1555. Is it not an advantage to get them sold in that way?-Yes; I think it would be an advantage to get ready money.
1556. Do charitable ladies sometimes take the shawls-and get them sold to their friends at a distance?-I can say nothing about that, because I never sold them in that way.
1557. Do you give receipts for the goods or money which you get as the price of your shawls?-No.
1558. The transaction is all done across the counter, without any writing?-Yes.
1559. Do you know whether the shopkeeper enters the price of the shawls, and the amount of the goods sold to you in return for them, in any book? Do you see whether that is done?-No, I don't see it.
1560. You have never noticed that?-No.
Lerwick, January 3, 1872, MARY HUTCHISON, examined.
1561. You live in Lerwick?-Yes.
1562. Are you in the habit of knitting?-Yes.
1563. Do you knit with your own wool?-Yes.
1564. Do you sell your knitting in Lerwick?-I sell some of it in Lerwick; but I send the most of it south, to Mr. John F. White, Edinburgh.
1565. Do you also act as an agent for him in Lerwick, by taking in things from other people?-Yes; a little.
1566. How are you paid for the articles you send to him?-I am paid in ready money.
1567. Is it remitted to you by a post office order or a bank cheque, as the case may be?-Yes.
1568. How much do you send to him?-I never send a large quantity. I just send what he tells me: a few shawls at a time.
1569. He gives you orders which you execute?-Yes.
1570. Do many women who knit come and sell their shawls to you?-No; I don't buy shawls. I give out wool to be knitted.
1571. How do you purchase your wool?-I buy it for money.
1572. From merchants in Lerwick?-Yes. Sometimes I buy from Mr. Sinclair, but generally I send to the North Isles for it, to people who buy it in there.
1573. There are people in the North Isles who buy the wool from their neighbours and sell it to you, such as Mrs. Smith, who was spoken of by a previous witness?-Yes; much the same.
1574 Have you dealt with her?-No.
1575. Do you pay the women who work for you in money?-Yes.
1576. You don't keep a store?-No, nothing except the money; or whatever they require they got it.
1577. Do you make a bargain when you give out the wool, or fix price when you see the work?-I buy the wool, and employ them to knit it.
1578. You do not merely act as agent for Mr. White?-No; I just buy the wool and employ the women, and pay them according to the size of the shawl.
1579. How many women are working for you in that way?-I cannot say exactly.
1580. Are there about half a dozen?-Yes, just about that.
1581. Do you find that the women here are anxious to work for you?-Yes; they are anxious to get money.
1582. You think they would much rather work, for you than for a merchant who keeps a shop?-Yes; I am never at a loss for them. When I am in a hurry I always get them to help me, because I pay in money.
1583. I suppose you get the choice of the knitters?-I don't know about that. I just get done what I have to do.
1584. Have you often been applied to by women who were anxious to work for you rather than for the shops?-Yes; very often.
1585. Do they tell you that it is a kindness or charity to employ them?-Yes; because they could not get the money out of the shops.
1586. Do you know, from your own observation of the system, as to the mode of dealing at the shops?-I often sell shawls in the shops, although I am not in the habit of going with them myself, so that I am often dealing a little in the shops.
1587. You send them by some other person?-Yes: I employ a girl to go and sell them for me.
1588. In that case, how is the transaction carried out?-I just get a line out of the shop, and get goods for it.
1589. Is the line in your name?-No; it is just a simple line or I O U, and I send it back: to the shop at any time when I want the goods.
1590. Have you any of these lines with you?-I have one at home, which I will send in.
1591. From whom did you get it?-From Mr Robert Sinclair.
1592. Have you sometimes got these lines from knitters?-Yes; often.
1593. They wanted money, and could not get it at the shops, and brought their lines to you?-Yes; I have often taken a line and given them money for it in order to meet their necessities, because they would not get money elsewhere.
1594. You kept these lines until you could make some use of them yourself?-Yes. Whenever I required any little thing, I sent to the shop for it, and paid for it with these lines.
1595. Have you any of these lines belonging to other women in your hands just now?-I have not.
1596. How much money may you have had lying out in that way at a time?-Not very much; perhaps a few shillings now and then.
1597. Are the lines generally for a large amount?-No; from 8s. to 7s. or 8s., or thereabout.
1598. May you have had two or three of them at a time?-Perhaps one or two.
1599. Have you known other, people taking lines in the same way?-Yes;, I believe there are many who do it.
1600. Do you know any one who is often applied to in that way?- I cannot say exactly; but I have often taken a line from Miss Elizabeth Robertson, who was examined on Monday, and given her money for it, because she was in necessity.
1601. Does Janet Irvine knit for you?-Yes.
1602. Have you taken lines, from her?-No; she is a fish-girl, and does not knit much.
1603. In selling your own shawls to the shops, have you asked for money?-No; but I have told the girl who went with the shawls to sell them for me to ask for a shilling or two, and she said she need not ask for it because she would not get it.
1604. But that was a case of sale. You know nothing about the case where, the wool has been given out by the shops?-No, I don't know about that, because it is long since I knitted any for the shops.
1605. Do you know of any other person in Lerwick who sends hosiery south in the same way?-Yes; there are plenty of them through the town.
1606. Do they send the hosiery, south direct to White or to other merchants in Edinburgh or Glasgow?-Yes; there are, plenty who do that; but I never have any dealings with any one except Mr. White.
1607. Who else in Lerwick deals in that way with [Page 32] the shops in the south?-There is a Mrs. James Henry in Burn's Lane, and a Mrs. Elizabeth Anderson, and several other people.
Lerwick, January 3, 1872, CATHERINE BORTHWICK, examined.
1608. Are you a knitter in Lerwick?-I am.
1609. Do you buy your own wool?-No.
1610. Who do you knit for?-For Mr. Robert Sinclair, Mr. Thomas Nicholson, and sometimes for Miss Robina Leisk.
1611. Have you books with all these people
1612. Have you any pass-book at all?-No.
1613. You get the wool weighed out to you, and you take back the article which has been ordered?-Yes.
1614. What articles do you knit?-Veils, shawls, neckties, ladies' scarfs, and the like.
1615. How long have you been doing business in that way?- About fifteen years.
1616. How are you paid?-Just in goods from the shops.
1617. You take an article which you have made to the shop, and tell them what the price is?-No; they price it themselves.
1618. Do they price it when the material is given out to you?-No; they price it when the article is brought to them again.
1619. When they have fixed the price, what takes place?-I can get anything out of their shop in the shape of goods that I ask for, only I cannot get any money.
1620. Do you not get part of the price in money?-No; I have never any money from Mr. Sinclair, except perhaps 5s., for the whole fourteen years I have wrought for him.
1621. Do you get money from other dealers you have mentioned?-I have got a little money from Mr. Thomas Nicholson; but it is not long since he began business for himself.
1622. Do you often go into the shops with articles worth about 10s?-Yes.
1623. How much of that do you get in money?-I have never got any money from Mr. Sinclair at all. It is about seven years since I asked him for 1s., and he would not give it me, and I have not asked since.
1624. Can you only get dry goods and tea at the shops?-I can get tea, and soap, and soda, and blue, and starch, and the like of that.
1625. How do you get your food?-I have a father, who buys it for me.
1626. You live with your father, and get your food with the family?-Yes; what his wages can bring in.
1627. Is that the only way you have of getting a living?-No; sometimes I have to take things out of the shop and sell them for money.
1628. To whom do you sell them?-To any neighbour or any person who requires them.
1629. Do you do that often?-No; I have not done it for the last two years, because some of the ladies in the town have employed me to knit for money.
1630. Do you prefer to sell to ladies in the town?-Yes.
1631. Are the goods which you knit for them for their own use?- Yes; or perhaps they get an order from the south, and they will rather put the money our way than go to the merchants with it.
1632. Do many ladies befriend you in that way?-Not many. There is Mrs. Walker, the Rev. Mr. Walker's lady.
1633. Who else?-I have not done anything for any other person for money.
1634. But Mrs. Walker pays you in money?-Yes; and the same amount as I would get in goods from the shops.
1635. Are the women who knit anxious to get customers of that kind?-Yes.
1636. Would you be content with a lower price for your shawls if you could get it in cash?-Yes.
1637. Have you ever been to take a lower price and get the money?-No.
1638. Have you ever offered to take less for your shawls if you could get money?-Yes.
1639. To whom did you make that offer?-I offered a white half- shawl to Mr. Robert Sinclair, and I also offered a white half-shawl to Mr. Thomas Nicholson.
1640. When?-The one I sold to Mr. Nicholson was in the spring, and that to Mr. Sinclair was about two years back.
1641. How much less did you offer to take in these cases?-2s. The shawl was worth £1, and I offered it for 18s.
1642. Was anything due to you by Mr. Sinclair at the time you asked for the shilling?-Yes; I think he was due me about 5s. 6d. at that time.
1643. Do you mean that you took goods to the shop worth 5s. 6d.?-No; he was due me about 5s., 6d. at that time. I was knitting a shawl for him, and was settling up for it.
1644. Was the shawl not finished?-Yes; I brought the shawl ready, and I was settling up. I had all the price of the shawl to get, and I took some goods, and then there was about 5s. 6d. over; and I asked him for 1s., and he said he could not give it to me.
1645. How did you square the balance at that time?-I just took something to give to a girl who had been working in our peats.
1646. What did you take?-A petticoat.
1647. Was it worth. 5s. 6d.?-Yes; the girl took it because she knew I could not get the money.
Lerwick, January 3, 1872, MRS. MARGERY MANSON orANDERSON, examined.
1648. Are you a knitter in Lerwick?-Yes.
1649. Do you knit with your own wool?-I have done so for the last twelve months.
1650. Before that, who did you knit for?-For Mr. Robert Linklater.
1651. You got wool from him?-Yes.
1652. Were you paid for your work in goods, or in money?-In goods.
1653. Did you get any money from him that you asked for, if you, wanted some?-I knew that I need not ask him for any, because I would not have got it.
1654. You are married, and therefore you don't spend all your time in knitting?-No.
1655. Why did you give up knitting for Mr. Linklater?-Because I could not do with it; it did not pay me.
1656. How did it not pay you?-I could not get money.
1657. But were the goods you got not as good you as money?- No.
1658. Were they not worth the money value that was put upon them?-No.
1659. Why was that?-I did not have money to live upon.
1660. But your husband keeps you?-No; he is sickly, and I have to do for myself.
1661. You have heard the evidence of the preceding witnesses, Catherine Borthwick and Margaret Tulloch?-Yes.
1662. They have explained the way of dealing here. Is that the way you have been accustomed to?-Yes.
1663. Have you anything different to say about the way in which you were paid for shawls that you knitted with Mr. Linklater's wool?-No.
1664. Did you ever get lines when you would not take goods?- No; I had a pass-book.
1665. Have you got it here?-No.
1666. Was it kept in the same way as Margaret Tulloch's?-Yes.
1667. The goods you got were entered at one end, and the shawls you gave in were entered at the other, and a balance was made now and then?-Yes.
[Page 33]
1668. How often was your book balanced?-I don't remember.
1669. Did you sign your pass-book as a receipt?-No; he signed it.
1670. You have had no pass-book since you began to knit with your own wool?-No.
1671. Where do you buy your wool now?-I have a woman spinning for me, and I buy the worsted from her.
1672. You pay her in ready money?-Yes.
1673. Do you sell your shawls to any person in particular?-Yes; to Mr Robert Sinclair.
1674. Are you paid for them in goods?-Yes, and a little in money. I always get some money from him to buy the worsted with.
1675. Would you be content with a lower price for your shawls if you were paid in money?-Yes.
1676. Have you ever asked to get it all in money, and offered to take less?-No.
1677. Do you ever sell shawls to ladies or to any person not in the trade?-No; Mr. Robert Sinclair has bought them all from me.
1678. Have you ever asked for more money from any of the merchants than they would give you?-No.
1679. Have you ever got lines?-Yes, I got lines from Mr. Sinclair.
1680. When?-When I gave in my articles.
1681. And when you did not happen to want goods?-Yes.
1682. Have you got any of these lines?-No.
1683. What did you do with them?-I gave them back when I got the goods.
1684. Was that long ago?-No, not long ago; it was when I sold my last shawl to him.
1685. Would that be a month or two?-Yes.
1686. Was a line given to you for the whole price of the shawl that you were selling, or was it only for the balance?-27s., was the price of the shawl.
1687. How much of that did you take in goods?-I took about one half of it, and I got a line for the rest.
1688. Did you take the line out in goods afterwards-Yes.
1689. You did not think of asking money for the line?-No; I never asked money at that time.
1690. Did you ever know of people selling their lines to their neighbours?-No.
1691. Or dealing with them in any way, or letting their neighbours get goods for them?-No.
1692. How much of the 27s., the price of your last shawl, did you get in money?-7s.
1693. When was that?-I think about two months ago, I do not recollect exactly.
1694. Was the 7s. all that you asked for?-Yes; I asked for the 7s. and he said he would give it to me.
1695. Did you take 4s. or 5s, worth of goods at the same time?- Yes; or perhaps more.
1696. And the rest in a line?-Yes.
Lerwick, January 3, 1872, JEMIMA SANDISON, examined.
1697. Are you a knitter in Lerwick?-Yes.
1698. Do you knit with your own wool?-No.
1699. Do you knit for merchants in the town?-Yes; for Mr. Robert Sinclair.
1700. Have you a pass-book?-Yes. [Produces it.]
1701. Do you deal with Mr Sinclair in the way which has been described already by the Witnesses you have heard?-No.
1702. Do you deal in a different way?-Yes.
1703. How is that? You get wool from him to knit into shawls or veils?-Yes; chiefly veils.
1704. The goods you get are entered in the passbook you have produced, and the goods given in are entered at the end of it?- Yes.
1705. Are the goods supplied to you always goods which you are requiring for your own use?-Yes.
1706. You do not sell any of them, or get them for your neighbours?-No; unless such goods as my own family require.
1707. Do you live with your own family?-Yes; with my mother.
1708. Do you get part of the payment for your shawls and veils in money?-Yes; whenever I ask money I get it. I never asked a shilling from Mr. Sinclair himself but that I always got it.
1709. When you got money for a shawl, how was it entered in the book?-I cannot say anything about that.
1710. If you were to take two veils to Mr. Sinclair and ask the money for them, do you think you would get it?-I cannot say, because I never asked it; but whenever I asked for a small quantity of money, such as 2s. or the like of that, I got it.
1711. What quantity of goods did you generally take at a time?-I cannot say that either. I don't think I ever had money to get out of his book. I was always due him something, and in that way I could not ask him for money.
1712. Then your account was larger than the value of the articles which you took to him?-Yes.
1713. If that was so, did you ever ask him for money at all?-Yes; sometimes, when I was in a strait for money I asked him for a little, and I got it.
1714. Then that was an advance, which he made when there was nothing due to you?-Yes; I have asked him for money when I was due him.
1715. But you don't know how that was entered in the pass-book, or whether it was entered there at all?-No; I don't think it was entered.
1716. I see there are entries in your pass-book: April 28, 1871, cash 1s.; April 26, cash 6d.: is that the way the money was entered?-Yes.
1717. There is an entry of worsted, 5d. was that worsted given to you for the purpose of knitting shawls to Mr. Sinclair?-I asked for worsted to buy, and I got it to knit for myself, and to sell again.
1718. Then it is entered in the pass-book just as goods?-Yes.
1719. Is there any difficulty made about giving you worsted in that way and entering it in the pass-book?-No; whenever I ask for worsted, I get it the same as any other thing out of the shop.
1720. Were you ever told that worsted was a money article?-No; I never was told that, so far as I can remember.
1721. Have you dealt in any other shop than Mr. Sinclair's in this way?-No; I have knitted for two and a half years for Mr, Sinclair.
1722. And always in the same way?-Yes.
1723. Are you a North Unst woman?-Yes.
1724. Do you live in Lerwick by yourself?-I live with my mother and my two sisters in a room.
1725. Does your mother knit?-No; she spins.
1726. Does she spin your wool?-No; she gets wool from other people to spin, and gets money for her work. She only spins for those who employ her.
1727. Does she spin for the shops?-No; she spins generally for ladies in the town, who employ her to make worsted for them.
1728. Ask her employers altogether ladies, not merchants?-They are just merchants' wives, and ladies in the town-chiefly Dr. Cowie's lady.
Lerwick, January 3, 1872, MRS ANN ARCUS, examined.
1729. You are a dresser in Lerwick?-Yes.
1730. How do you carry on that business? What is the nature of it?-I sometimes make shawls myself, and sell them. There [producing it] is a line of mine, which I got from Mr. Sinclair.
1731. Do you dress shawls or make them?-I dress shawls, and sometimes I make them or get them made.
1732. What is the dressing business?-Washing the shawls, and stretching them on the grass, and mending [Page 34] them and making them ready for the market. The stitches sometimes give way when they are stretched and then I mend them.
1733. Do you also bleach the shawls?-We whiten them with brimstone.
1734. You do that before stretching them on the grass?-Yes.
1735. That is part of the washing process?-Yes.
1736. Does every shawl, after being knitted require to be so dressed before it is sold?-Yes.
1737. The merchants don't buy shawls until after they are dressed?-No.
1738. Are your transactions in dressing shawls always with the knitters, or are they sometimes with the merchants?-Sometimes they are with the merchants, and sometimes with the knitters.
1739. Then the merchants do buy shawls undressed?-No; they do not buy them undressed, but they send some shawls out to be worked for themselves; and it is these shawls I dress for them
1740 In that way a knitter who works for a merchant has nothing to do with you?-No.
1741. When she has knitted a shawl with wool supplied by the merchant, she takes it to the merchant, and he sends it to you to be dressed?-Yes.
1742. It is only the knitters who work with their own wool who come to you?-Yes.
1743. Do you also buy shawls from knitters yourself?-No; but I get shawls made in the same way as the merchants do, and then I sell them.
1744. To whom do you sell them?-To the merchants.
1745. Do you send any shawls south?-No.
1746. Do you sometimes sell knitted articles to the merchants on behalf of the knitters?-Yes.
1747. When a knitter brings you a shawl to dress, I suppose she pays you in money?-Yes.
1748. What is the usual for that?-There are different charges, according to the size of the shawl; but for the general run of them it is 6d.
1749. And that is always paid by the knitter to you in money?- Yes.
1750. In what way is it that you are sometimes asked to sell articles for the knitters?-Because I cannot always have them dressed and ready for them to sell after the time they come in with the goods and before they go away again. These women come from the country, and I cannot have their things ready before they want to go home again; and therefore I sell them for them before they come back.
1751. You sell them as their agent?-Yes.
1752. And then you account to them for the price?-Yes. I get the price from some of the merchants, but others mark it in their books, and don't give lines. These merchants mark down the price of the shawl, and the name of the woman who owns it.
1753. And she, when she comes to the merchant again, arranges with him as to the price?-Yes.
1754. Is it within your knowledge that these shawls are always paid for in goods?-The country girls don't want money, and don't ask it. It is always clothing they need, and they get it.
1755. Then they just knit for the purpose of supplying themselves with clothing?-Yes.
1756. How is it that they don't want money?-They have some other way of doing at home, and I suppose they only want their clothing from the shops in Lerwick.
1757. Then the knitting with them is an extra sort of employment?-Yes; it is not exactly a livelihood for them.
1758. Is that the case with the town girls too?-No; they generally depend on their knitting for a living.
1759. Do they regard it as a hardship not to get money?-I can only speak for myself, not for them. When I have a shawl of my own, and ask some money on it, I get it.
1760. Do the town girls come to you to sell their articles for them?-No; they sell their own work themselves. I dress the shawls for them, and they get the price themselves-sometimes in money I suppose, to pay me with.
1761. You think they get sufficient money for their shawls from the merchants, to pay your charge?-They get money somewhere to pay me with: whether it is their own money or not I don't know. I don't take anything but money.
1762. You give them credit sometimes until their shawl is sold?- Yes.
1763. And then they come back you with the charge for dressing?-Yes.
1764. You shown me a line: where did you get it?-I got it in Mr. Robert Sinclair's shop-I think from his clerk.
1765. When?-When I sold my shawl-a shawl of my own, which I knitted myself.
1766. You did not want anything particular at the time, and therefore you took the line: was that so?-No. I asked him for a little money on the shawl, and I got it; and then I got the line, so that I could buy what I required afterwards as I needed it.
1767. Did you ask for money?-Yes; I asked for a little, and I got the sum which is marked on the line as having been paid to me in cash.
1768. He gave you 6s. in cash?-Yes.
1769. Was that all you wanted?-Yes. I did not ask for that sum, I only said I wanted a little money, he gave that.
1770. The line, is in these terms:'C Z 91-Cr. bearer value in goods twenty sixshillings 26s. stg.'To cash 6s; to Vict. tartan 4s. 7d.' ' White cotton, 6d.; wincey, 2s. 10d.' ' Grey cotton, 6d.'R. SINCLAIR & CO.'C. S.'28.12.71'
This was last Thursday?-Yes.
1771. Was the shawl with your own?-Yes.
1772. Then it was just a sale to Mr. Sinclair?-Yes.
1773. You got 6s. in cash and 8s. 5d. in goods, and the rest is still due?-Yes, for me to get when I require it.
1774. Is that a usual way of doing business in Lerwick?-Yes; but I have got the whole of the price in money from a merchant for a shawl when asked for it-not for myself, but for a country girl.
1775. From whom have you got it all in money?-From Mr William Johnston. The price was 20s.
1776. Is he a hosiery dealer, just in the same way as Sinclair & Co., and Mr. Laurenson, and Mr. Linklater?-Yes. I have had money from them all whenever I asked for it.
1777. Would the women get money from them if they were selling the shawls themselves?-I cannot answer for that. I don't know that they would.
1778. Is it not the fact that the reason why you are sometimes asked to sell shawls for these women is that you can get the money for them?-I don't ask any money for the country girls at all; they never asked me to seek it.
1779. Do not the girls employ you to sell their shawls because they think you may get some money from the merchants, when they would not?-It is just because they think I can get a better price; at least that is what I think is the reason. They don't bid me get money.
1780. Do you think the merchants give you a better price?-They think so.
1781. Perhaps you can make a better bargain for them?-They have that idea.
1782. Have you never been asked by a country girl to sell a shawl for her and to get money for it?-Never.
1783. Then, on the occasions when you have got money, it has been for shawls which you have sold either for yourself or for town girls?-Yes, but particularly for my self.
1784. Have you sold them for town girls, and got money for them?-No; I have never asked money for any person but myself, and I have always got it.
[Page 35]
1785. How many shawls may you sell for yourself in the course of a year?-Sometimes there may be two.
1786. May there sometimes be three?-I could not tell the number particularly, but I have always one or two in the course of the twelvemonth.
1787. I suppose you are chiefly engaged with your dressing business, and have not much time to knit shawls?-Yes; the dressing is my only way of living.
1788. Are you a widow?-Yes.
1789. Have you often got lines similar to the one you have now produced?-Yes. Whenever I sell a shawl to Mr. Sinclair I get these lines, and then I give them to the girls to whom the shawls belong.
1790. Then they don't always want the value of their shawls in goods, but they sometimes take a line-Yes; and they keep it until they want something else. They are always served with what they want when they come with a line.
1791. You have not a pass-book with any of the merchants?-No.
1792. I suppose pass-books are only used where girls knit with the merchants wool?-Yes.
1793. Do you keep a pass-book with any of the merchants for the shawls which you dress for them?-No; I just get the money.
1794. Are you paid for them at the time?-Yes.
1795. Will the merchant send you a large consignment of shawls at a time to be dressed?-Yes; sometimes he may send a good lot.
1796. And you return the lot you have got when they are finished, and get paid for them when you return them?-Yes; in money.
1797. There is nothing entered in any book between you about that?-No.
1798. Are you the largest dresser in Lerwick?-I don't know that I am.
1799. Are there any others in the business?-Yes; there are a good many.
1800. Do they live mostly at the Docks?-No; there are one or two dressers who live at the Docks. They don't do so much as I do, but Mr. Sinclair has dressers of his own who do more than I.
1801. Does he pay them day's wages?-No; I think he pays them just as they work for him. The veils, neckties, and scarfs go by dozens.
1802. Is that the way you charge for these things?-I charge 11s. 6d. for a dozen veils, and the same for a dozen neckties or scarfs. I charge 6d. for every shawl, sometimes 3d. or 4d. if it is small, or 1s. if it is a very fine one.
1803. Have you ever sold shawls to any people except merchants?-I have.
1804. Do you sometimes sell to private ladies?-Yes, and gentlemen too.
1805. Do you sell to visitors in summer, and to people living in Lerwick?-Yes.
1806. Do you consider you are likely to get a better bargain with them than with the merchants?-I get the money from them.
1807. But you have no reason for dealing with them for the purpose of getting the money, because you say you get money from the merchants if you ask it?-Yes; but if a gentleman comes and asks me for a shawl, he has nothing to give me except the money, and I get it all in money then.
1808. Would you rather do with a gentleman or lady in that way than with a merchant?-It is only sometimes that they can take a shawl in that way; but the merchant always takes them.
1809. But would you prefer to deal with strangers rather than with the merchants?-If they were always here, I should like it very well.
1810. That is because you get a better bargain, and you are sure to get all money?-Yes.
1811. Is it not rather a favour to you that the merchant gives you money when you ask it?-I don't know whether it is a favour to me, but I always get it when I ask it. But I don't have such a great run of shawls as some of the other women have.
1812. It is rather out of your ordinary way to be selling shawls?- Yes; but when I do make one and ask money, I get it.
1813. Have you ever got the whole price of a shawl in money?- Yes.
1814. From the whole of merchants you have named?-No, only from Mr. Johnston; and that was for a country girl, because she was in need of it.
1815. That was a case in which you went out of your usual way, because the girl required it?-Yes.
1816. Have you asked the whole money from any of the other merchants?-No, I never did.
1817. You have only asked a part of it in money?-Yes.
1818. On a shawl worth 25s. that you were selling for yourself or for a girl, how much might you, in a general way, ask in money?- I have got as high as 10s. or 7s. 6d. or 5s., just as I asked it.
1819. But you never thought of asking the whole price of it in money?-No; but I was always requiring something that the merchants had to give me.
1820. Supposing you had a shawl to sell, would you give it to a merchant for a lower price if he paid it down in cash, than if he paid you in goods for it?-Yes; if I was requiring the cash, I would.
1821. Would you not do it in any case?-I would be glad of the money, certainly.
1822. Do you think it would be worth while for the knitters, as a rule, to take a less price for their shawls and to get money for them, rather than to go on in the present way?-I don't know about that. For my own part, I should like if the people were to get part of both-both money and articles. Nobody can live without articles; and it is just as well to get them from the merchants who buy our shawls, as to get the money.
1823. But if the merchants did pay all the price of the shawls in money, it would just come back to them, because, as you say very truly, people cannot do without some of the merchants' goods, and the money would return to them in payment for their goods. Don't you think, that would be a better system for all parties than the present?-Those who need money would like to get it; but some people don't stand so much in need of money as others. For instance, if I were knitting shawls only, I would need most of the price in money, because I have no other way of living but I don't mean to say that girls who work merely for the sake of getting clothing, require to get the whole price in money.
1824. But suppose they got all the price of their work in money, might it not be easier for them to make the purchases of the goods they require?-They would not get so much for their shawls then; they could not expect it.
1825. That is because the merchant makes a profit upon the goods he sells, as well as upon the shawls?-Yes.
1826. Are you aware whether it is a common thing in Lerwick, to sell shawls cheaper for money than they would be given for goods?-Yes, any person who required money would rather sell a shawl for 1s. or 2s. less, in order to get it.
1827. Have you often seen that done?-Yes.
1828. Have you often done that yourself on behalf of the country girls?-Yes.
1829. You mentioned a case where you got the whole price of a shawl in money from Mr. Johnston: did you, in that case, say you would give it for 2s. or 3s. less if you could get the whole price in money?-Yes; because the girl required it, and told me to do that. She wanted the money to pay her rent with.
1830. Was the price you got a fair price for the shawl?-It was at that time.
1831. Is there anything else you wish to say on this subject?-I have only to say that I think the girls ought to be very thankful to the merchants, for they have done more for them than any one in the place has done yet. They have bought their work, and then they have gone and distributed it throughout the country. This knitted work is not worn here; but the merchants have got a market for it, and therefore I think the girls ought to be very grateful to them.
[Page 36]
1832. Do you think they would not have got a market for their goods themselves?-No; plenty of them would never have been able to have gone to the market, even if they had thought of it.
1833. How long is it since that trade became general here?-I can hardly tell; I was a little girl when it began. The first shawl I made I got 7s. 6d. for, and I was very proud of it.
1834. How much would you get for that now?-They would not buy such a thing now, the work was so open. I can just recollect of it. I don't think I was much more than ten years at the time. I sold it to Mr. Harrison, and he and Mr. Laurenson were about the first who began to buy them. We got groceries and everything we wanted then for our shawls.
1835. You do not get these things now, because the merchants who buy the shawls don't have them?-They have them all except groceries.
1836. With regard to the girls in town who sell the shawls to merchants and get only goods in return, how do they do for a living?-Some girls live with their parents, and can do very well.
1837. But a number of them live in rooms by themselves, and perhaps have a parent or some other person to support out of their earnings: how do they generally do for their food?-I can hardly answer that. I don't know how they do; but I know that some of the girls that I am in the habit of dressing the shawls for, come and tell me they have sold a shawl today, and what they got for it, and that they have got some money. Some of the merchants give them money, and some of them tea, and worsted to knit another shawl with; and that is just money.
1838. But if they have to make shawl with the worsted, they cannot turn it into provisions?-No; but they will make another shawl.
1839. And they may get 1s. or 2s. in money?-Yes.
1840. But if they only get 1s. or 2s. on each shawl, that is not sufficient either to pay their house rent or to supply them with provisions?-No; but I think there are some of them who may get a shawl sold for all money, and then that pays the rent.
1841. They do happen to get that occasionally?-Yes; some lady who wants one for a present to a friend might buy it from them. That is the only way I can think of in which they can get their provisions; but if it was the case that the merchants had groceries in their shops, people would not require very much money, and then they would get their livelihood.
1842. What kind of goods do you generally get for your country girls in exchange for their shawls?-I do not buy them; they buy them for themselves.
1843. You get lines, and they choose the goods for themselves when they next come to town?-Yes.
1844. In that way you do not know what they get?-No; but I always hear them say that they got very good bargains, and they are generally well pleased.
1845. You say shawls are sometimes sold to a lady or gentleman passing through the town; I suppose, in that case, there will be two prices for them?-No.
1846. Would you ask from them the same price that you get from the merchant in goods?-We might ask it, but, seeing the money, we might give the shawl for less. Some people don't ask to have the price reduced, but others do.
1847. You just make the best bargain you can, in each case?-Yes.
Lerwick, January 3, 1872, Mrs. ELIZABETH MOODIE, examined.
1848. Are you in the habit of knitting for any one in Lerwick?- Yes; for Mr. Sinclair.
1849. Has any one asked you to come and give evidence here to-day?-Yes; I was summoned.
1850. Did any one ask you besides that?-No.
1851. Do you knit with your own wool, or is it with wool supplied to you by Mr. Sinclair?-Partly both, I generally have a shawl of my own in hand, but I always knit for Mr. Sinclair.
1852. Do you keep a pass-book?-No; I never had a pass-book with him.
1853. Are you paid in the same way both for your own shawls that you sell, and for those that you knit for him?-No; generally when I knit a shawl for Mr. Sinclair, he allows me so much for the knitting of it; but when I sell a shawl, I price it myself.
1854. Is that price paid in the same way that the wages are paid to you for knitting?-No.
1855. Is it paid to you in money in both cases; or in goods?-It is paid in goods in both cases.
1856. Is there not a certain part of it, in both cases, that you can get money for?-Yes. When I knitted for Mr. Sinclair before I was married, he generally gave me money whenever I asked for it; but since I had a house of my own, I generally manage my affairs so that I do not have to ask him for money. I usually take clothes for my children and myself from him without getting money at all; but if I did ask him for money, I have no doubt he would give it to me.
1857. Have you always got money when you asked for it?-Yes; whenever I asked I got it.
1858. Do you generally take the whole value of your shawls in goods?-Yes, I always do.
1859. And no money passes between you at all?-No, not since I was married; but previously, when I asked him for money, I always got it.
1860. Did you generally ask for a considerable part of the price of your shawls in money?-Yes.
1861. How much might you get out of a 20s. shawl, for instance?- Perhaps I might have asked him for 2s. or 2s, 6d., and so on, money.
1862. Would that be about the usual thing?-Yes; that was generally about the usual thing.
1863. Did you ever get the whole price of a shawl or of any hosiery goods in money?-No; I never asked it.
1864. Do you live at home with your people, or did you live by yourself before you were married?-I lived at home with my father.
1865. So that you did not require any money with which to purchase food for yourself?-No.
1866. You merely knitted to supply yourself with dress, or whatever you wanted for yourself?-Yes.
1867. Did you require for your dress all the payments you received for your knitting?-No, I cannot say that I required it all for myself. I might have supplied some of my brothers or sisters with any little thing they wanted.
1868. Did they repay you for that, or did you make a present of it to them?-I generally made a present of it to them, as I was at home.
1869. Would you have preferred to have been paid wholly in money?-I should prefer to be paid part of both, if I could manage it.
1870. Would you prefer to get half the price in money?-Yes, I would like that very well.
1871. Could you not get one half of it in money if you asked for it?-I believe if I had asked for it I could have got it, but I did not ask it.
1872. Then, if you preferred it, why did you not ask for it?-I told you I managed my affairs in such a way that I did not need it.
1873. But you said you would have preferred to have had half of it in money?-Provided I could have got it, I should have liked it very well; but I did not ask that.
1874. Why did you not ask it? Do you think there would have been a difficulty in getting it?-I don't know; I only know that I never asked for one half of it in money.
1875. Why?-I generally took a line for what remained to me upon a shawl. I might have got the money instead of a line, but I did not ask it.
1876. You have taken lines sometimes?-Yes, I generally took them.
1877. Have you any of these lines have none just now?-No, I have none just now.
1878. When you get a line, do you always take it [Page 37] back to the shop, and get goods?-Yes; I sometimes take it back to the shop.
1879. What do you do with it at other times?-Sometimes a friend may require a line from me, and give me money for it.
1880. If you were selling your goods for ready money, would you take a less price for them?-Sometimes I have seen me take a shilling or so less if it was all money.
1881. But you said you never got the whole price of a shawl in money?-Occasionally I sold a shawl to a stranger in the place in the summer time, and I might give it to him for a shilling less.
1882. Do you generally get a smaller price when you sell to a stranger in that way?-Perhaps I may sometimes have asked a smaller price, as it was the money I was to get.
1883. If you wanted the money, why did you not, when selling your shawls to a merchant, ask him for the ready money, and take 1s. or 2s. less?-I don't know. I never thought of that.
1884. Was it not because it was not the practice here to give money?-Yes; that is the truth.
1885. Of course a shawl which you sold to a stranger in that way would be one knitted with your own worsted which you had bought?-Yes.
1886. Do you always pay ready money for your worsted?- Always.
1887. Do you always buy your worsted from the merchants in town?-Sometimes; and sometimes, when the country people come down, they have worsted with them, and I buy it from them too.
1888. Is the price the same in both cases?-Yes, always.
1889. If you were selling a shawl to a merchant and taking goods, and if you asked to have part of the goods in worsted, is there any objection made to that way of dealing?-No; I never heard any objection made to that.
1890. Did you ever get worsted as part of the goods you received in payment for your shawls?-Yes.
1891. Often?-Not very often; sometimes.
1892. You never knew of any objection being made to giving you worsted as part of what you were to get for your shawls?-No.
1893. Or for a line?-No; I never heard any objection.
1894. Do you knit to a large extent?-Yes; knit a good deal
1895. How much will you make in a month or in a week in that way?-I could not exactly say. It takes a good long time to make a nice shawl.
1896. Is it mostly shawls you make?-Yes.
1897. Will it take a month to make a shawl which is worth £1?- Yes. I have other things to do, and cannot keep constantly at it.
1898. But you do make one shawl a month or there about?-Yes.
1899. So that your dealings in that way will come perhaps £12 or £14 a year?-They will be more than that. I would reckon that they would be about £15.
1900. Would that all be your own knitting?-I could not say that. Perhaps I might get some one to help me a little with a shawl.
1901. But it would be mostly your own work?-Yes.
Lerwick, January 3, 1872, MARGARET OLLASON, examined.
1902. Are you in the habit of knitting for merchants in Lerwick?- No; I knit for myself, and I sell the goods.
1903. How are you paid for them?-I generally make articles for which I get an order.
1904. From whom?-From ladies who employ me.
1905. Have you never sold to merchants at all?-I have sometimes sold to Mr. Sinclair.
1906. When you sell to him, are you paid in money?-I have asked for part of both-money and goods-and I got it.
1907. You did not ask for the whole in money?-No.
1908. Why?-Just because I thought it was not the custom of the place.
1909. Did you want the whole in money?-No; I was requiring the goods at the time.
1910. Does it often happen that you sell articles to Mr. Sinclair in that way?-Yes; I sold him two shawls lately.
1911. How much of the price did you get in money?-The price of one of the shawls was 35s., and I got 17s. 6d. in money.
1912. Did you ask for that?-Yes.
1913. And you had no difficulty in getting it?-No. I sold the other shawl for 28s., and I got 8s. in money and £1 in goods.
1914. That was the arrangement that you wanted yourself?-Yes; I asked it.
1915. You wanted the goods?-Yes.
1916. Would you have made a better bargain by selling these shawls to a lady in Lerwick, or to a stranger visiting the place?-I got much the same price from Mr. Sinclair as I had been in the habit of getting.
1917. Do you sell to visitors, or to ladies in Lerwick, because you prefer to do that?-We sell to them because we are not requiring the goods.
1918. And you prefer to sell to them because you wish to get the money?-Yes.
1919. Do you live with your friends?-I live with my father.
1920. And you buy your own worsted?-Yes.
1921. Where do you buy it?-I get it from the North Isles,-from Yell.
1922. You get it from people who make it there?-Yes.
1923. Do you generally knit for ladies who have given you an order, or do you knit your shawl and then seek for a purchaser?- Sometimes I get an order for shawl and make it, and at other times I make one and keep it until I get an order.
1924. Is it considered among you who knit, to be a better way of living that you knit to ladies than to merchants?-Yes.
1925. Do you ever try to dispose of your shawls to visitors who come to Shetland in the summer?-No, I never did that, for I generally get orders for them as soon as I have them ready.
1926. Do you know that it is the practice to look out for visitors in summer, or to send shawls to places such as hotels or lodging-houses where they stay, in order to get buyers among them?-I know that is a common thing, but I have never done it.
1927. Is that done because it is a more profitable way of disposing of the goods than by selling them to the merchants?-I think that is the reason.
1928. Or is it done because they get money from the visitors or strangers?-I believe it is because they get money.
1929. Do you get as large a price from a visitor in money as you get from a merchant in goods?-Yes.
1930. Do you know that from your own experience?-Yes.
1931. You said you had sold a shawl for 35s. to Mr. Sinclair: if you had sold that shawl to a visitor, or to a lady in Lerwick, or to a stranger in the summer time, would you have got 35s. for it?-I would.
1932. Have you got that price for a shawl exactly the same?-Yes; I have got it from Dr. Hamilton in Bressay, who was requiring it for a lady.
1933. You sold another shawl for 28s. Could you have got as high a price in money from a visitor for it as you got in goods from the merchant?-Yes.
1934. You don't know that there are two prices for shawls, according as they are paid in money or in goods?-I don't know that, for I have not experienced it.
1935. Would you have given either of these two shawls you mentioned for a lower price if you had got the whole price of it in money?-No; I don't think [Page 38] I could have done it, for I thought the shawls were worth the price I put upon them.
1936. Don't you think you could have got a higher price than 35s. for that shawl from a visitor?-I don't think it.
1937. When you sold the shawl to Mr. Sinclair at that price, you knew that he was buying it for the purpose of selling it again: was the price which he gave you not something of a wholesale price?- It was just the price I would have asked any one for it, because it was just what I thought it was worth. The price I put upon it was just sufficient to pay me for my worsted and my work.
1938. But Mr. Sinclair must make his profit off the shawl when he purchased it in order to be re-sold, so that there may be two prices in that way: do you know anything about that?-No; I don't know anything about it.
1939. You thought you ought to get at least 35s. for the shawl, and you were prepared to take as much more as you could get?-Yes.
Lerwick, January 3, 1872, Mrs. BARBARA BOLT, examined.
1940. You are the wife of William Bolt who lives in Lerwick?- Yes.
1941. Are you in the habit of knitting Mr. Sinclair?-I knit for myself, but I sell my work to Mr. Sinclair.
1942. You have no pass-book in that way of dealing?-No.
1943. Did you hear Margaret Ollason's evidence?-Yes.
1944. Do you knit the same kind of goods as she does?-No; I generally knit veils and shawls to Mr. Sinclair.
1945. Do you deal in the same way as she has described?-Yes; something like the same.
1946. Do you sell to other people than Mr. Sinclair?-No; I generally sell everything have to him.
1947. When you go to him to sell your work, do you get payment in money or in goods?-In goods.
1948. Do you prefer that way of dealing; or do you want all money?-I generally require goods.
1949. Have you a family?-Yes; the goods were wanted for them.
1950. You don't get provisions there: you provide them otherwise?-Yes.
1951. Do you sometimes ask for money from Mr. Sinclair?-Yes, I have asked for money, and I got it when I asked it. I have not sold anything to any other shop for the last fifteen years.
1952. Would you prefer to get money if you could?-I don't know. If I were getting money, I would just have to buy goods with it, so that the goods are the same to me as money.
1953. Do you know that any one can get money for their goods if they want it?-I know there are plenty who get it.
1954. But can any one get whatever money they require for their goods?-I don't know. I only know that there are many who want money; but for my own part, I generally ask for goods, and I get them; and if I require a little money, I always get it.
1955. Do you sometimes get lines?-Yes; and worsted to knit, which is the same as money.
1956. If you are in want of worsted, do you buy it from Mr. Sinclair in payment for your shawls?-Yes.
1957. Do you keep any account, or do you just deal across the counter?-I just get the things as I want them.
1958. You go to the shop and say you want so much worsted as part of what you are taking?-Yes.
1959. Do you get it at the ordinary price?-Yes; it is just the same price.
1960. Does your sister-in-law, Mrs. James Bolt, deal in the same way?-Yes; in the same manner.
1961. And, altogether with Mr. Sinclair?-Yes. We always knit together, and what hosiery we have we always sell to him.
1962. Do you buy the worsted from Mr. Sinclair exactly in the same way as you would buy a piece of cotton or a dress?-Yes; just the same.
1963. The price of the worsted is reckoned up as part of the price of the shawl that you are selling?-Yes. We get it on a line the same as the other goods.
1964. Of course: there is no writing: it is just a transaction across the counter unless there is a line?-Yes.
1965. But if you have a line, and bring it back to the shop in order to get goods, do you get worsted for it just as you get any other goods?-Yes; I have got worsted on a line.
1966. Do you know that these transactions are all entered in Mr. Sinclair's book?-Yes.
1967. You have seen that done?-Yes.