5725. Will you give me a note of the number of men employed by you, of the total amount of cash paid to them, and of the total amount of their shop accounts for 1870, and also for 1867?-Yes. I found, on looking over my books last night, that the total amount of cash paid at the present settlement was £2015. That includes the Faroe fishing too. With regard to the employment of curers at the stations for a specific sum, I may mention that it would not do to pay them weekly, because for several weeks, and perhaps longer, if it is bad weather, these curers will have nothing to do at all. At the home fishing stations they are paid by a fixed sum yearly; and the reason for that is, that if we were to pay them weekly, they would be quite pleased for two or three weeks if they had nothing to do; but if it came a fine week, and there was a great quantity of work, they would throw everything up and go home, and our fishing might be left to perish.
5726. Are you engaged in the Faroe fishing to a great extent?-Not to a great extent; but I have five vessels.
5727. In that case, the arrangement with the men is somewhat different?-Yes, quite different; the men get half the fish, and they are paid the current price for the dry fish.
5728. You cure all the fish, and they get half the price of the dried fish?-Yes.
5729. So that the calculation is somewhat similar?-Yes. There is 5 per cent. taken off for selling and risk before the division takes place.
5730. When is the Faroe fishing at an end?-As rule, it is at an end in August.
5731. When are the fish completely cured?-It is sometimes nearly the end of September before they are cured.
5732. Is the division made then?-No; the owner of the vessel sells all the fish, and the division is not made until the settlement.
5733. In the case of a man who engages with you for the Faroe fishing, is it usual for an account to be opened in his name in the same way as with the others?-Yes; we are obliged to supply him with an outfit. The principle of that agreement is, that the men get one-half the value of the fish after deducting curing, and the expenses of converting the fish into cash. They are also allowed 8 lbs. of biscuit per week; the other provisions they have to furnish for themselves.
5734. These supplies are all entered to the man's debit in your book?-Yes.
5735. Is it usual for you to supply his family during his absence with goods on credit in the same way?-Yes; we are very often obliged to do that in order to keep them from starving.
5736. Is that done on a larger scale than in home fishing?-No; I don't think it is done on such a large scale, for the greater number of the hands going to the Faroe fishing are young men without families.
5737. In the Faroe fishing you have not only the 5 per cent. for selling, but you have the profit on one-half of the fish?-That is sometimes a very small profit, for the vessels will sometimes be £100 in debt in the course of a year.
5738. But that depends on the luck of the voyage?-Yes; we have one-half of the fish for the vessel.
5739. You supply the vessel entirely, and the men have nothing to supply except their fishing lines?-Yes; nothing except their fishing lines-2 lines, or 21/2, for hauling the fish with.
5740. Are these lines supplied by you as part of the outfit?-We have to put them on board the vessel, and then any of the men who require them can get them. Sometimes the men have lines of their own, and don't require to take them from us.
5741. I understand you were engaged at one time in the hosiery trade?-Yes.
5742. You used to buy the hosiery in the same way in which it is now bought in Lerwick?-Yes; always paid in goods, I gave that business up in 1870.
5743. Was there any profit made upon that trade?-No; the only profit I ever made by the hosiery was if we had any profit on the goods that we bartered for them. We never could realize the price, as a whole, which I had paid for the hosiery, and consequently we were obliged to give it up. We had very great difficulty in selling it.
5744. Did you sell your hosiery goods south?-I sent them south, and I had really to take anything they would give us for them.
5745. You do something in that way still, do you not?-Yes, occasionally. The principal thing we do is in purchasing goods from other merchants for sending them south when we get an order. Then we purchase what kinds of goods suit us.
5746. Do you buy them in Lerwick?-Yes, and in the country too.
5747. But you don't buy from the knitters yourself?-I don't buy from them. Sometimes they will make us buy them whether we will or not. We cannot get clear of them sometimes, but we don't want to buy them.
5748. Are the knitters anxious to get paid in money for their hosiery?-I don't know. Very likely they have been so long accustomed to getting goods for them, that they never think of asking such a thing as money.
5749. Do you think they would take a less price for hosiery if they were paid in money?-I don't think it.
5750. I suppose they want the goods in the country, and they think they get a profit by taking them?-Yes; for instance, if they have a pair of socks to sell, they won't sell them under 8d., and if you offer them 6d. in cash it is no object for them to take it. They would rather have 8d. worth of goods. In that way they are better off by getting the goods, because if they got 6d. in cash they would just lay it out in buying 6d. worth of goods.
5751. Do you employ beach boys extensively?-Yes, a good many; not at Voe, but at Papa Stour, Stenness, and Skerries.
5752. What is the usual wage for a beach boy?-The usual wage now is from £2 to £3, 10s. for boys.
5753. What is it for women?-Women don't usually work there. If we require to employ women on an emergency, then they are employed at the station at so much per day. There is no regular wage for them.
5754. Do the beach boys get accounts opened in their names at your shop?-We are obliged to do that in order to supply them with food. Sometimes we have to give them shoes and clothing to cover them.
5755. Do they generally get a balance of cash at the [Page 143] end of the year?-Yes; where they are careful, they have a considerable balance to get. Some of them will even have more than half their wages to get in cash.
5756. Are you tacksman of any estate or an owner of land in Shetland?-I am not tacksman of anything but the Skerries Islands. Mr. Bruce of Simbister is the proprietor.
5757. Are there any people living on these islands permanently all the year round?-Yes.
5758. Are they bound to fish for you?-Yes; and they have no wish to change.
5759. You pay rent to Mr. Bruce, and you take the risk of their payments?-Yes.
5760. In that case their rent enters your account as deduction against the men?-Yes. I manage Lady Nicholson's property in Papa, more as a factor for her than as a tacksman.
5761. Are the fishermen there free to fish to anybody they please?-Yes.
5762. But in point of fact they fish to you?-They all fish to me, for the very simple reason that there is no other one there for them to fish to.
5763. Do any of them cure their own fish, or try to do it?-There is only one native crew who cure their own fish at Papa.
5764. They prefer to do so, and you make no objection?-None whatever; and when their fish are cured, they just deliver them to my man there, and we buy them cured at the current price for cured fish.
5765. Do you think these men make as much of their fish as the other men do?-They do; but they have a great deal of labour with it. When the season is bad, it requires a great deal of attention from the whole of these men to attend to a few fish, and to get them dried, and perhaps it will be well on in September before they get over with it. They also run a risk their fish being spoiled.
5766. I suppose some fish are necessarily damaged in the course of curing?-Yes; it is a very important thing to be particular about that. They get damaged with rain, and they get damaged with sand and with the sea-breeze, and they require a great deal of attention.
5767. Is the rent which you pay for Skerries calculated so as to allow you a profit upon the rents of the sub-tenants?-No; I pay £110 of tack duty, and the gross rental from the tenants is only £68, I virtually pay the difference just for the station-that is, station rent for the store and premises which are put up there.
5768. Is it not also for the privilege of having these fishermen to fish for you?-I believe I could make more of these lands if I had them as grazing ground, without any fishermen there at all. There is only one of the Skerries I hold now; one of them has been sold to the Lighthouse Commissioners.
5769. If you could make more of the island as grazing ground, why don't you turn it into that?-If I were to do so, what could I make of the men? There are fourteen families, and if I turned them adrift it would be a fearful thing.
5770. Is it difficult for men to get land in Shetland?-It is very difficult now; there are so many requiring it, that almost every place is taken up. I have boats that go from the mainland to fish at the Skerries with the natives.
5771. Then it is useful as a station for them?-Yes.
5772. Is there anything else you wish to state with regard to the system of carrying on business, or with reference to the evidence that has been laid before the Commission previously?-Not so far as I am aware.
Brae, January 10, 1872, CHARLES YOUNG, examined
5773. What are you?-I am a fisherman at Stenness.
5774. How long have you been there?-For twenty years.
5775. Do you hold land there?-No.
5776. For whom do you fish?-For Mr. John Anderson, Hillswick.
5777. Do you go to the home fishing?-Yes.
5778. How far is Stenness from Hillswick?-About three miles. I do not live at Stenness. I live in the south part of North Mavine, at Manaster, about twelve miles from Stenness.
5779. Do you go to Stenness merely for the fishing?-Yes.
5780. Has Mr. Anderson a station there?-Yes; only in summer and harvest.
5781. Has Mr. Adie also a station at Stenness?-Yes.
5782. How long have you fished for Mr. Anderson?-I have fished for about seventeen years for Anderson Brothers. I fished for two years at Ollaberry, and I fished for the time I have mentioned for Anderson & Co.
5783. How are you paid for your fish? Do you get most of your payment in goods or in cash at settling time?-I have got most in cash.
5784. What is the time for settling?-The settling time commences about 12th November, but for some years we have generally settled from 26th to 27th November.
5785. Do you generally get your supplies during the fishing season from Mr Anderson at Stenness?-Yes.
5786. Where is your family supplied? -I do not require much supplies for my family, I can buy them at any shop in the neighbourhood.
5787. Is there any shop at Manaster from which your family are supplied?-No. The most part of my dealing has been with Mr. Anderson, but I sometimes deal with Mr. Inkster at Brae, or any shop I may have occasion to go to.
5788. Are your family generally supplied by Mr. Anderson at Hillswick?-No; not as a general rule.
5789. Do you run an account with Mr. Anderson?-Yes.
5790. The two sides are balanced at the end of the year in November, and you generally get a good part of your payment in cash?-Yes.
5791. Do you get advances in money during the fishing season?- Not unless I require them; but if require them, I can get them.
5792. Do you ask for them as a favour?-No.
5793. Do you want the money for some particular purpose when you ask for it?-Yes.
5794. Do you always get it when you ask it?-Yes. I asked for £5 this year, about the beginning of the fishing, and I got it without any difficulty.
5795. Do you also get any reasonable quantity of goods you want?-Yes.
5796. Are the goods supplied to you at Stenness or at Hillswick?- To a certain extent at Stenness, and for the greater part at Hillswick.
5797. Do you go there for them?-Yes.
5798. Do you get both meal and clothing there?-Yes; I generally get them there in the summer season for the fishing.
5799. Is the meal there of good quality and reasonable price?- Yes; it is about the same as in other parts of the country.
5800. Would you have any advantage if you were going to another dealer for your meal and clothing?-I don't think I could have any.
5801. You think you get your goods as good and as cheap as you could desire?-Yes; they are as good and as cheap, there as at any other part of the island.
5802. Or at Stenness?-Yes; it is not much clothing they have at that place. It is only a temporary place, where they keep supplies for the men during the fishing season.
5803. Then the way in which you deal is very much the same as has been described by the witnesses from [Page 144] Mossbank?-Yes; I cannot say there is much difference.
5804. You are not obliged to fish for any person in particular?- No.
5805. You are a free man?-Yes.
5806. Do you generally get a balance in cash at the end of the year?-Yes.
5807. Would you rather be paid all at once in cash?-Yes.
5808. Why don't you manage to get that done?-I can hardly say; circumstances won't allow it. Sometimes the reason for it arises from the way in which we are placed as a crew of men. The curers will sometimes object to give it to one man in a boat's crew, unless all the men were alike.
5809. And all the men would not wish it in cash?-There are not many who would not wish for it in cash.
5810. Why could not the whole of the boat's crew get it in cash?- Because some of the men have got behind, and they cannot manage to go on throughout the rest of the season unless they get supplies from the curer.
5811. They are in the curer's debt at the commencement?-Yes, or perhaps they might be free men; but they have no opportunity of supplying themselves with anything until the end of the fishing.
5812. Therefore, when there are one or two men in boat's crew who are in that position, the curer objects to give cash payments to the others?-I cannot say that, because I have not seen it asked by the rest; but we have been conforming to the old practice that has been going on of fishing to the curers, and being paid by them at the end of the season.
5813. Do you want any change in the system?-The only change I would want in the system would be to know what I was working for. I should like to see a change in that respect.
5814. Would you like to have a price fixed at the beginning of the year?-Yes; before I commenced to fish, because according to the system we are proceeding on now we might go to the fishing, and at the end of the fishing season or at the end of the year when they settle with us, the merchants could pay us if they liked with 2s. a cwt.
5815. Do they not come under an obligation to pay you what is the current price at the end of the season?-It is not very often that we enter into engagements of any kind. The men who are free men generally fish for them, and they just fish upon an understanding that they are to be paid the country currency.
5816. But it is understood that they are to be paid the country currency?-Yes.
5817. And you would be entitled to get the country currency in any case?-Yes; but if the fish were going down as low as they might do, we would still only get the currency.
5818. Do you mean that the fish are sometimes higher earlier in the season than they are at the end?-No; what I mean is that the price varies very much. I have seen the price 4s. 6d. a cwt. in some years, and 8s. in other years; and if the price were to go below 4s. 6d., we would still only be paid according to that. But if we had a fixed price before we went to sea at all, I think that would be better. If there had been an average price fixed at the commencement of the season while I have been fishing, I would have been better satisfied in my own mind, because I would have known what I was working for. In that way the curer would have the advantage in some years, and in other years we might have the advantage.
5819. Do you think there would be any difficulty in getting the fishermen to stick to their bargain, if there was an arrangement of that kind made at the beginning of the season?-I fear there might be some difficulty with some of them.
5820. Some of them might think that if the price were to rise, they ought to get the full value of that rise?-I don't think any reasonable man could expect that, if he had made a fixed bargain to be paid so much.
5821. But you say that some of the men would make a difficulty about an arrangement of that kind; what do you mean by that?- The only difficulty I see would be a want of means to supply what they require in order to fit them for the fishing; but I think the difficulty might be got over.
5822. Do you mean that the men would get under weigh even if there was a fixed price?-I think so.
5823. When would you have that fixed price paid?-For my own part I would not care although we were not paid until the same time when we are paid at present. If it were paid weekly, I don't know how that system might work.
5824. Do you think that all the fishermen would like to have a price fixed in the beginning of the season?-I cannot say that the whole would like to have it, but for my own part I should like it and I know there are others besides me.
5825. Do you think there would be no difficulty in getting credit from the fish-curer in the same way as at present, if there was a fixed price?-No; the time for fixing the price might be the only thing that would be altered, and the settlement would still remain in November. We would then have a fixed price, and would know what we were working for.
5826. You have no objection to the system of advances?-I cannot say that I have.
5827. Are you quite at liberty to engage with any fish-curer you please, and to engage to fish for him through the season?-Yes.
5828. Has every fisherman the same liberty?-Every one, so far as I know, in this place.
5829. Even although he is in debt to the fish-curer?-No; in that case the fish-curer expects him to fish for him until his debt is paid. That is generally looked for, and in some instances I know that they had to agree to do it.
5830. Do you know that they wished to fish for another curer, but that they were obliged to fish to the man to whom they were in debt?-They did not wish to fish to another curer, but that fish-curer wished them to sign an agreement to fish to him for the rising season.
5831. Did they agree to do that?-Yes. They did not say anything about leaving the fish-curer, but only he wished them to agree.
5832. At what time of the year was that?-I have seen it done in the month of November, and also in December.
5833. Did the fish-curer ask them to do that at a time when they were wanting further advances of goods or money?-Yes, advances of money.
5834. And it was in order that he might have some security for these advances that he asked them to sign the agreement?-Yes.
5835. Is that a common thing?-I cannot say it is a common thing in my experience, but I have known it done in two or three different cases.
5836. Where was that?-At Hillswick.
5837. Have you known it done anywhere else?-No.
5838. Who were the men with whom it was done?-One man who told me twice over about it was Hugh Phillip; it happened with him in two different years.
5839. Has it happened with anybody else to your knowledge?- No.
5840. Was it not quite fair that a man should be expected to work for the curer until his debt was paid?-Yes.
5841. How does a man get into such an amount of debt as that? Is it from dealing with the shop?-I cannot say that the shop accounts are the cause of it, but it may arise from the circumstances of his family. The fishing here is the only thing a man has to depend upon, and sometimes, when it turns out bad year, he perhaps has taken a greater amount of supply from the shop for his family than usual.
5842. Was Phillip's account for shop goods?-It was for an advance of rent.
5843. That was what he was taking the money for but was he in debt before for shop goods?-Yes.
[Page 145]
Brae, January 10, 1872, WILLIAM GREEN, examined.
5844. You live at Sullem?-Yes.
5845. Are you a boat-skipper?-Yes.
5846. Where do you fish?-At Stenness.
5847. To whom do you deliver your fish?-To Mr. Adie.
5848. Have you done that long?-For six years.
5849. Do you settle with him at the end of the season?-Yes.
5850. Did you hear Mr Adie's evidence to-day?-I did.
5851. Did it give a fair account of the way in which the settlement is made?-Yes.
5852. Are you one of the men who generally have a balance in your favour at the end of the year?-Yes.
5853. Would it be an advantage to you to have a shorter settlement?-I don't think so.
5854. Why?-Because we fish during the year and at the year's end we settle with him.
5855. Are you quite content with the settlement as it is?-For my part I am.
5856. Do you deal with Mr. Adie's store at Voe to any great extent?-Yes.
5857. Do you take your goods from Voe to Sullem?-Yes.
5858. Is not that a long way to carry them?-It is.
5859. Could you not get them as good nearer home?-We could get them much the same but not better. If I want goods, Mr. Adie will either send them to me, or I may sometimes get the chance of a boat coming my way.
5860. How far is it from Sullem to Voe?-Perhaps from eight to nine miles.
5861. Are there shops nearer to you than that?-Yes; there is a shop at Brae, and there is also a shop to the northward.
5862. Can you get goods as cheap at these shops as at Mr. Adie's?-Much the same.
5863. Do you deal as much at these shops as at Mr. Adie's?-No; I deal more with Mr. Adie than with them.
5864. Is that because you have an account with Mr. Adie?-Yes.
5865. Do you know whether there is any difference between the prices in the shop at Voe and at other places?-I see no great difference. I have tried other places; and if there was any difference at all, it would be that I could get an article at Mr. Adie's perhaps a little cheaper than at other places.
5866. Then the only disadvantage you have in dealing at Voe is the distance?-Yes.
5867. And the only advantage you have is that you have an open account there?-Yes.
5868. Is that the only reason why you deal there-The boat we fish in belongs to Mr. Adie; we hire it from him.
5869. Is that any reason for dealing at Voe?-No but we fish to Mr. Adie, and we get goods from him as we require them, and at the year's end we make a settlement.
5870. There is a convenience in making a settlement at the end of the time, because you have not to pay for the goods in the meantime?-Yes.
5871. But if you got your cash every month or every six weeks, as you wanted it, would that not save you the trouble of going to Voe for your goods?-It might.
5872. Would you not consider that a great advantage?-No, not a great advantage.
5873. Do you think it is handier to make a settlement once a year and go to Voe for your goods?-Yes.
5874. Are you obliged in any way to go there unless you please to do so?-No, we are not obliged.
5875. How much do you generally get in cash at the year's end?- That varies according to the fishing. I have seen us get £8 or £9 after deducting our accounts.
5876. Do you require that money to pay your rent and other things that you want to buy?-Yes.
Brae, January 10, 1872, WILLIAM POLE, examined.
5877. You are managing partner at Mossbank of the firm of Pole, Hoseason & Co, merchants and fish-curers?-Yes.
5878. You have other places in Shetland?-Yes. We have one in North Yell, at Greenbank; we have also two fishing stations-one at Feideland, and the other at Gloup. Feideland is at the extreme end of Northmavine, and Gloup is at the farthest north part of Yell.
5879. Have you heard the evidence of Mr. Adie?-Yes.
5880. Is the way in which you carry on your business at Mossbank substantially the same?-Yes, substantially the same. One difference is that we don't give discount on the fishermen's accounts in the way Mr. Adie seems to do.
5881. Is there any other difference that occurs to you?-The fishermen pay for their lines in some cases by three yearly instalments, and in the event of fisherman leaving us we are not bound to take back the lines from him, as Mr. Adie said. But that is quite a trifling difference.
5882. What proportion of dried fish do you estimate to be produced from the green fish, in settling with your men?-It takes 21/4 cwt. of green fish to make 1 cwt. of dry in the case of ling; and in the case of tusk it takes more.
5883. Is that a universal calculation in Shetland?-In some years it is a little less, and in some years a little more.
5884. Is that not a fixed standard? Is there a fresh calculation made every year as to the quantity of dried fish produced out of so much green?-There can be if it is wished.
5885. Do you not always go upon the footing that 21/4 cwt. of green fish make 1 cwt. of dry?-No; we can make a calculation in order to get at the quantity of green fish which it takes to make 1 cwt. of dry.
5886. On what principle do you act in settling with the fishermen?-In settling with them we pay them the current price paid in the country.
5887. But you calculate that current price on a certain principle with regard to the quantity of dry fish produced out of green?- Yes.
5888. In settling with them, do you always go upon the footing that 21/4 cwt. of green make 1 cwt. of dry, or does that enter into the settlement with the fishermen at all?-Of course that enters into the calculation; but then we can know exactly what quantity of green fish it takes to make 1 cwt. of dry. It is generally about 21/4 cwt. It may be a few pounds less some years, but it is very seldom more than 21/4 cwt. We always reckon upon it taking 21/4 cwt. green of ling to make 1 cwt. of dry; but then the price which we pay to the fishermen depends altogether upon the price which we get from the fish dry, and we pay them the current price paid in the country.
5889. How is that current price ascertained? Is it by the sales of each fish-curer, or by the sales of all the firms in Shetland?- Fish-curers have generally to pay the same price, whether they get the same price or not; but there is not often any great difference between the price got by one curer and that got by another. For instance, we reckon, one 21/4 cwt. green fish to 1 cwt. dry: that, at 8s. a cwt., comes to 18s., and we pay the fishermen for the cwt. of dry fish. Then the actual cost of curing is reckoned at about 2s. 6d. per cwt. dry. That does not include waste of curing utensils and management; so that the actual cost of curing the fish would be nearly £3 a ton, or 3s. a cwt.
5890. You may sell these fish for about 23s.?-Yes; but there is more to be taken into the calculation than that. We get £6 from each boat for the hire of the boat and the lines; but that sum cannot cover the cost to us, and therefore we have a loss upon the boat and lines, which has to come off the fish also.
5891. Is that loss universal?-I think it is, because there is no more paid for the boats now than was paid twenty years ago, when a boat wore half as long again [Page 146] as it does now, and when lines that run for two or three seasons would run for five or six seasons.
5892. Is that difference caused by deterioration in the quality of the articles?-No; it is caused by the boats going further out to the fishing. They require larger boats and larger sails, and then the lines are getting more used and more worn.
5893. I was asking you how the current price is ascertained at the end of the year?-It is just ascertained in the same way as the current price of any other commodity in any other place would be ascertained.
5894. Do you correspond with other fish-curers in order to find out the price?-Yes.
5895. Is there any meeting of fish-curers held at Lerwick or elsewhere for the purpose of fixing the price?-Not that I am aware of; not in the case of the haaf fishing.
5896. Is there any in the case of the Faroe fishing?-I am not sure about that; but I never attended one.
5897. Have you been asked to attend one?-No.
5898. Is there any rule with regard to the fixing of price current in the Faroe fishing? Do not the fishermen there get one-half the proceeds of the fishing, whatever the price may be, without reference to a price current?-It is always expected that the crew of one vessel will get the same as the crew of another.
5899. Do you mean the same as the crew of another employed by the same merchant?-No; by different merchants. That is always expected, and there is seldom any difference, although it does happen occasionally.
5900. Therefore you have heard of a meeting for the purpose of fixing a price current for the Faroe fishing?-I heard of such a thing taking place once, but not oftener; and I think it was only attended by three or four individuals. I think that was a year or two ago, but I am not certain about the time. Indeed, I am not certain about the thing; it only occurs to me that I heard about it.
5901. But the current price for the ordinary ling fishing can be easily enough ascertained, because you meet one another, and in your correspondence you may mention it incidentally?-Yes.
5902. Does it sometimes happen that the fishermen to one firm complain that they have not got so large price as their neighbours?-That has happened in my experience once or twice.
5903. Does that account in any degree for the desire which some fishermen seem to have for a price to be fixed before the season begins?-I don't think so.
5904. Do you think fishermen would be better off if a price were so fixed?-I do not.
5905. Why?-Because I think, under the present system, they are getting the very utmost the fish are worth to any merchant.
5906. But would it not be better for the fishermen? Would they not work as well, or better, if they knew the price they were to get?-I am not very sure about that; I cannot see in what respect they could possibly be better than they are.
5907. In your curing establishment do you employ beach boys at a fixed rate per annum?-Yes.
5908. Do they open an account in your shop-books in the same way as a fisherman who is engaged to fish to you for the season?- Yes, in much the same way. We engage them about this time of the year, and they require a few trifles about this time. Then, before they commence work on the beach, they require some clothing-perhaps some oilskins and boots or shoes. Then they require meal to keep them going through the season, and they are settled with at the end.
5909. What is the amount of the balance generally paid to a beach boy at settlement time in cash?-From 10s. to 30s.
5910. Out of wages amounting to from £2 to £3, 10s.?-Yes; we very seldom pay a boy more than £3.
5911. Have you any difficulty in getting beach boys?-We do find a considerable difficulty sometimes.
5912. Is the supply not equal to the demand?-Not in our case. For the past year for instance, it has not.
5913. How does that happen? Are their wages too low, or have they any other employment nowadays?-Nowadays the boys are being employed at the fishing sooner than they used to be.
5914. Are there many people employed in your curing establishment as day workers?-Yes; they are chiefly women, but there are a few boys and a few old people.
5915. How are they paid?-By the day.
5916. When are they paid?-Whenever they wish
5917. Is there a weekly pay-day with them?-There may be, if they wish; but sometimes, for their convenience, we do not settle weekly. The settlement may run for three, four, five, or six weeks, or perhaps whole season.
5918. How many days will these women be employed in the course of the season? Is it anything like constant employment?- Yes; at least during the summer. From the end of May till the end of September we will employ on an average about twenty women daily at Mossbank, and about ten at Greenbank.
5919. Do these women run an account at your shop for goods?- Yes.
5920. Is a considerable amount of their wages paid to them in goods?-Yes, a considerable part.
5921. Is there any understanding or rule that they shall take part of their wages in goods?-There is no such understanding.
5922. They are quite at liberty with regard to that-Yes.
5923. Will they get cash if they ask for it?-Yes, if they have it to get; but it is a convenience for them to get their goods from our shop. It saves them the trouble of going a greater distance for them.
5924. Is there no other shop there?-Not close by. The nearest shop is about a mile off, I think.
5925. Is there any expectation or understanding, when these women are engaged, that they shall open an account and take their wages, or the greater part of them, in goods at your shop?-No, there is no understanding; but we have every reason to believe that they will come to us, because they cannot manage otherwise.
5926. Are the goods which they take generally provisions or soft goods?-Chiefly provisions, but some soft goods too.
5927. In engaging these women, do you give any preference to those who deal at your shop?-No; but they mostly all deal there.
5928. Has each of them a ledger account in her own name with you?-Yes.
5929. Have they generally pass-books, or do they prefer to do without them?-They can get a passbook if they like, but they seldom do it.
5930. Are you a landed proprietor?-I am to small extent.
5931. Are any members of your firm owners of land?-No; not owners.
5932. Or tacksmen?-I am a tacksman of some; and we, as a firm, are factors for one or two small properties.
5933. Are any other members of the firm tacksmen or proprietors of land?-Not tacksmen.
5934. Or proprietors?-No. Mr. Hoseason, I think, is proprietor of one-fifth part of a rental of £3.
5935. On the land which you hold as owner or tacksman, are there many of the tenants who are fishermen and are employed by your firm?-Yes, there are a great many fishermen.
5936. Are they under any obligation to fish for you, and not for another?-Yes; we expect them fish for us in preference.
5937. That is part of the contract which they enter into for their ground?-Yes; but it is also understood that we are to give them the current price of the country.
5938. What are the properties of which you are tacksman?- Aywick, in East Yell.
5939. What is the number of fishermen on that property?-There are only four or five of them who fish to us. There are a good many others, but they do not [Page 147] fish to us. Some of these men go to the whale fishing, and we are not interested in it.
5940. They are not bound to fish for you if they go to the whale fishing or to the Faroe fishing?-No; not unless we require them. If we require them, they will give us the preference willingly.
5941. Is it part of the arrangement or understanding, that you are entitled to prevent them from going to the whale fishing or to the Faroe fishing if you please?-No; they are at perfect liberty to go to the whale fishing if they prefer it.
5942. But if they engage in the home fishing they are bound to fish to you?-Yes, if we wish it.
5943. What other properties are held in tack by you?-Sandwick, in North Yell.
5944. How many men are upon it?-There are seven or eight families, the heads of which are all fishermen, and they fish to us. There is another small property called Sellafirth, in North Yell, on which I think there are four or five men. We are also factors for George Hoseason of Basta, in North Yell.
5945. Are the men there bound to fish to you?-They all fish to us. They are not bound to do so; only, it is understood that they are to fish to us.
5946. How many of them may there be?-I think six or seven.These are all the properties of which we are tacksmen.
5947. Of what properties are you proprietor?-I am proprietor of small place in Delting, at Mossbank.
5948. Are there many fishermen on it?-No; only three or four.
5949. Are they also expected to fish for you?-No; there is only one of them, I think, who fishes for us.
5950. Are those fishermen in North Yell who fish for you, and who live on the land you have mentioned, in the habit of dealing at your shop at Gloup?-Yes; to a small extent.
5951. Are your books kept there?-No; Greenbank is the principal place where they are kept. Gloup is fishing station in connection with Greenbank.
5952. The shop accounts at Greenbank are balanced in the same way against the price of the fish?-Yes.
5953. Perhaps you will make up a similar statement to that which Mr. Adie has promised with regard to the amount of the shop accounts and the indebtedness of the men?-Yes. The systems pursued at Mossbank and Greenbank are a little different. At Greenbank we hire both boat and lines to the men; while at Mossbank the men almost all buy their lines, and hire the boat only.
5954. How many accounts do you keep at both places?-I think about 120 or 130 altogether, for the ling fishing.
5955. Are you engaged in the Faroe fishing?-Yes, to a small extent.
5956. Your dealing with regard to it is similar to what Mr. Adie has described?-Yes, quite the same.
5957. The men who go to that fishing deal at your shop in the same way as those who go to the home fishing?-Yes.
5958. Do they generally incur as large a shop account as the men who engage in the home fishing?-Not generally.
5959. Is that because they are young men?-Yes.
5960. But those who have families are in pretty much the same condition as the home fishers?-Yes; there is not any material difference as to the amount of their shop accounts.
5961. Is there anything you would like to add to what Mr. Adie has said?-No; I think everything I have to say has been stated already.
5962. You are not engaged in the hosiery business?-Only to a very small extent; we do not turn over £100 of hosiery in a year. There is one thing I should like to say about the difference in the price of our meal and the price of meal at Lerwick. I have heard it said that we average 8s. or 10s. higher than the price there. I may explain, in the first place, that there was a mistake with regard to the actual amount of difference; but at that very time the witness spoke of there was a considerable difference caused by a sudden rise in the price of meal in the market. At that time the meal rose several shillings on the sack. Parties who had their meal in before the rise could sell it without any increase of the price, if they thought fit; but we happened to bring in meal the very week the rise came on, so that we had to sell it at an advanced price.
5963. What was it?-I don't recollect exactly, but recollect that it was pretty considerable. The usual difference between the price of our meal and the price of meal in Lerwick is from 1s. 6d. to 2s. per boll
5964. Was the difference as much as 5s.?-No, it was not so much as that; but, from the cause I have mentioned, it may have been considerable. I made an arrangement with a party in Lerwick this year to send us weekly a price current of the meal in Lerwick, because sometimes our people do complain that they are charged more than they could get it for at Lerwick, and I wish to know how we really act in that way. I should be glad to send that price current for your inspection.
5965. Do you wish the prices in it to be compared with the prices at your own shop?-Yes.
5966. How are the prices at your shop to be ascertained?-Our books can show them.
5967. Are all the sales of meal entered in your books at the time they take place?-Not all; but when meal is given on credit, the price is entered in the ledger account opposite the name of the party.
5968. You have not got your books here?-No. I was not cited to attend to-day; but I wished to be examined, and I came forward.
5969. In what way do you arrange your ledger? Have you an account in it for each boat's crew?-Yes.
5970. Is there also a ledger account for each individual?-Yes.
5971. In that ledger account do you enter on the one side all his outfit and all the goods supplied to his family or to himself out of your shop, while on the other side are entered the proceeds of his fishing, and everything else that may be due to him?-Yes.
5972. In the case of the properties of which you are tacksman or proprietor, the rent, I presume, goes into the debit side of the man's account?-Yes.
5973. Is there anything else you wish to say?-No.
Brae, January 10, 1872, Rev. DUNCAN MILLER, examined.
5974. You are a clergyman of the United Presbyterian Church at Mossbank?-I am.
5975. You have been there for a number of years?-Yes; this is my fourteenth year.
5976. You are well acquainted with many of the fishermen and with their families?-Yes.
5977. You are aware of the system which exists, of the payments for the fishermen's catch being settled at long intervals, and of accounts being run for shop goods with the merchants who buy their fish?-Yes. I think it is necessary to make a distinction with regard to the long accounts, because what I suppose is called the winter fishing is paid for immediately on the fish being landed.
5978. These are the small fish taken in the winter time?-Yes.
5979. But for the summer fishing there are these long settlements I refer to?-Yes.
5980. Have you formed any opinion as to the effects of that system upon the habits and character of the people?-I have.
5981. What conclusion have you arrived at on that matter?-I have arrived at the conclusion that these effects are very injurious. I think the men are brought to depend too much upon the shop and too much upon [Page 148] the merchant, and that in consequence they rely too little upon themselves. One result of the system therefore is, that there is a want of prudence amongst the men generally. I think the pass-book system affords a fatal facility for men getting into debt, and that many rush into it in that way who think very little of the debt they incur. Besides, I think the present system fosters, and has a natural tendency to produce a deceitful character in the people. For example, they are bound by their agreement to deliver their fish to the factor of the merchant for whom they fish, and the result is pretty much as has been stated in the examinations to-day, that a good many smuggle away their fish. They think the men who purchase them-I believe they are called yaggers-give them, a higher price, in many cases, than they would get from their employers, and therefore they dispose of fish which really belong to the proprietor of their boats; and all that is done in an underhand way.
5982. Have you any knowledge about these yaggers or factors who come about the country purchasing fish?-I have no knowledge of them except from the fishermen's own statements.
5983. Do you understand them to be strangers travelling about the country?-I understand them to be men-many of them, at least,- who have boats of their own. They have perhaps a single boat upon a station, and that gives them a right to be upon that station; and then they can buy as many fish as they please from the men belonging to other boats and other proprietors.
5984. Are they men who cure for themselves?-Yes; they cure for themselves to a small extent, and increase their means by purchasing from other boats.
5985. Do they occasionally reside in Shetland?-Yes.
5986. Are they fishermen themselves?-Yes; they are what are called small merchants. Possibly they are not able to furnish out a large fleet of boats, but they get one; and that one is little better than an excuse for giving them a right to be there, and to make purchases.
5987. Is the opinion you have arrived at with regard to the habits of improvidence that prevail among the fishermen the result of your own experience of particular cases.?-It is the result of general impressions, from a comparison of a multitude of individual cases that have come under my notice.
5988. Do the fishermen or their families with whom you come into contact, complain or make you aware that they run into debt to the shop to a larger extent than they ought to do?-Yes; many of them do.
5989. Do you find, as a rule, that the ordinary fisherman is in debt to his shop more than he is fairly able to pay at the end of his fishing season?-I think in my own neighbourhood that is probably the case, but of course Mr. Pole is more able to speak to that than I am. I don't know the state of their books, but I have a general impression that that is often the case. I think the majority of the fishermen round Mossbank are deeper in debt than they can hope to pay in one year.
5990. Would your opinion on that point be altered by discovering from the books, or from the fishermen themselves, that a considerable sum was paid to them annually in cash at settlement?-I cannot say for the present how they stand, but I have known when there was hardly a fisherman who was not in debt.
5991. Was that after a bad year?-No; it was for a succession of years. I remember about ten years ago of a very large home fishing in the way of sillock taking, when a couple of men in a boat were realizing upwards of £2 in a night. At that time a great many of them got themselves out of debt who were perhaps about £20, or from £20 to £30, involved, and I presume they have not been so much in debt since. I cannot say exactly how long that was ago but I think it was perhaps eight or ten years.
5992. You spoke of the men being too much dependent upon the fish-curer under the present system: would you explain, in what way that dependence is evidenced?-It is evidenced in a variety of ways. There is one way in which it is pretty evident, viz. that they never think of making any provision for the future. They know when they go to the work, that if their character is such that they can be expected to pay, or if they have property of such an amount as will pay their debt, they can get goods; and it is a kind of maxim, 'Well, there is plenty of pens and ink, and they can mark that down.' I have known that answer returned by men when they were accused of running too far into debt.
5993. Does that indicate a want of self-dependence?-Yes; a want of self-dependence, and too great a dependence upon the shop.
5994. It does not prove that they are under the control of the shopkeeper?-They are under his control.
5995. A man who is deeply in debt to a shopkeeper is of course under the control of his creditor to, certain extent; but in what way does that operate against the fishermen?-I think they become dispirited. They never think of paying their debt, and it paralyzes their energies.
5996. Do you think a fisherman who is in debt in that way is induced to engage for the season with the fish-curer on disadvantageous terms, or that he is induced to continue his dealings at the merchant's shop, when he might do better for himself otherwise?-Yes, I think that when he forms an engagement in that way his energies are paralyzed in prosecuting his calling, and that he will not fish with the same energy as if he were free men. He knows that whatever amount he may earn at the fishing, still his debt will hang about his neck. He will not be able to pay it. But I am not quite sure that I apprehend your question. I am speaking rather of the way in which the fact of a man being in debt paralyzes his energies.
5997. I was rather anxious to see how the fact of him being in debt operated to put him under the control of a fish-merchant so as to induce him to make a worse bargain than he would otherwise do, or to continue dealing at the merchant's shop, and to get his payment in goods, while he might be doing better with ready money?-The way in which I would understand the system operates injuriously in that case is, that if man is in debt to a merchant, the merchant, if he wishes the man to fish, has no more to do than to say to him, 'I will roup you off: you will be without the possibility of holding land, and your cows will be taken. You will get no manure; you cannot cultivate your land profitably without it, and you will just have to begin the world again a new man.' Now a man with a family, and probably a pretty large family, cannot afford to do that.
5998. Is there a feeling among the fishermen that they are in any way under an obligation, either a tacit understanding or an actual obligation-to deal at the fish-curer's shop for their goods?- There is a tacit understanding, at least, that they must do that; but I believe that is induced by the circumstance, that for large portion of the year their money is in the merchants' hands, and that again affords the kind of facility for running into debt which I have spoken of.
5999. Do you think that makes them incur larger debts than they otherwise would do?-I think so.
6000. Can you suggest any remedy for this state of things?-The remedy I would suggest is this: that the payments be as prompt as possible, and that they be cash payments. I am quite ready to state how I think the cash payments would operate. At present the fishermen's money is all in the merchants' hands; but he is requiring goods in the meantime, and he has no money to procure them with, and therefore he goes to the merchant and procures his goods. The merchant is under no constraint,-he can put his own price on the articles which he sells; and of course, where there is a credit system like the present, there are a large number of defaulters. These defaulters do not pay their own debts; but the merchant must live notwithstanding, and therefore the honest men have to pay for the defaulters. The merchant could not carry on his business unless [Page 149] that were done. He must have his losses covered; and system of that sort tells very heavily upon the public, because the merchant must charge a large margin of profit. Now I think the ready-money system would be more favourable for both parties,-because, suppose I were a merchant and dealing in ready money, I might turn over my capital three times a year, and I might have a profit every time, or three several profits; but if my money is lying out in debts, then it is perfectly clear that I must have as large a profit upon one turnover of my capital as under the other system, I would have upon the three, only I might have a little more trouble in turning it over three times instead of once. That is the reason why I think it would be beneficial to the merchant. On the other hand, I think it would be beneficial to the fishermen, because if the merchant turns over his capital three times, and has a profit on each time, then the profit which he could afford to charge would be less, and the men would get their goods cheaper.
6001. Are you in a position to state, as a matter of opinion, from your own experience, that the prices charged at the shops of these merchants are higher than they are at others where that system does not prevail?-I am not personally cognisant of that. I have bought some things at the shops here, and I thought they were charged higher; but I get my goods from Edinburgh-half a year's provisions at a time-so that I cannot testify from personal experience as to the difference in that respect.
6002. Is it not a very common thing in Shetland for families to get their supplies from Edinburgh?-I don't think it is general.
6003. I don't mean the families of fishermen; but is it not a common thing for people of a higher class to get their supplies from the south?-Yes, from Edinburgh or Aberdeen; but in my own case there is reason for sending to Edinburgh, over and above any difference in price. There are many articles I require which are not to be had here, and I have to send south before I can get such articles as are suitable for me.
6004. Have you anything to say with regard to the system pursued in the hosiery business here?-I don't think it is conducted with that amount of discrimination which it ought to be conducted with. In my neighbourhood there is very little done in hosiery; but the hosiery goods are just like a penny piece,-you know what they are; it does not matter whether the article is good or bad,-there is just a fixed price for it. That being the case, people don't put themselves to much trouble in order to procure a good article.
6005. Do you think the women would be better off if they were to get payment for their goods in cash?-I think so. I think it would be beneficial to have transactions in cash in hosiery as well as in everything else.
6006. Do you know any cases of women who have been making hosiery, and who have been in distress for want of money although they were able to get goods for their hosiery?-I know that they prefer money. I cannot say about their having been in distress. Many persons have come to my wife and have brought hosiery goods because they would get money from her for them. They often require money for purposes that goods will not answer, and in such cases they frequently come to Mrs. Miller and endeavour to get her to buy them.
6007. Is it a common thing in Shetland, that the women would rather go to a private party and get money for their goods than take them to a merchant?-Yes; there are a great many purposes for which money is required. Suppose a parent wished to pay his child's school fees, or anything of that sort, of course cotton goods would not pay for that; only the money would do. But the hosiery is a very unimportant branch of business in our neighbourhood.
Hillswick, Northmaven: Thursday, January 11, 1872.
WILLIAM BLANCE, examined.
6008. You are a fisherman at Ollaberry?-I am.
6009. Have you a piece of land there?-Yes.
6010. Who is your landlord?-Mr. Anderson of Hillswick.
6011. For whom do you fish?-For Mr. Adie. I have fished for him in the summer season for the last six years.
6012. Are you at perfect liberty to fish for any person you like?-I have had that liberty since I came to Ollaberry.
6013. Have you not always had it?-Before that time I was south. It is only within the last six years I have been going to the fishing.
6014. Are the people at Ollaberry at liberty to fish for any person they like?-I don't know whether I can answer that question.
6015. Why?-Because I should like to speak only of my own experience. I have not been bound myself, and another man might tell me a true statement, or he might tell me a false statement.
6016. Then your own experience is that a man is free?-I have been free for the last six years while I have been at the Faroe fishing. During that time I have had my freedom
6017. Was it because you went to the Faroe fishing that you had your freedom?-I could not go to the ling-fishing.
6018. Why?-For certain reasons of my own. My own bodily ability was one.
6019. Does it require a stronger man to go to the ling-fishing than to the Faroe fishing?-It requires healthy people, I suppose.
6020. Are healthy people required more in the ling fishing than in the Faroe fishing?-Yes.
6021. Do you know whether your neighbours at Ollaberry are at liberty to fish to any person they please in the ling fishing?-They are supposed to fish for their landlord.
6022. Do you understand that that is a part of the bargain under which they hold their ground?-I don't know; but I believe it is, from hearsay.
6023. Were you told so yourself when you took your ground?-My landlord told me he wished my fish, and I told him I could not give them to him.
6024. And you went to the Faroe fishing instead?-Yes.
6025. Do you consider that if you went to the home fishing you would be at liberty to engage with any fish-merchant who offered you a good wage?-[No answer.]
6026. Why do you hesitate to answer that question? You must have some idea about it?-I would not consider myself at liberty until I inquired at my land-master.
6027. Is that the way with the other fishermen at Ollaberry too: have they told you that that is the obligation under which they lie?-They might have told me, but I forget.
6028. Do you believe that it is the obligation under which they lie?- If you hesitate to answer that question, I must ask you the reason why you hesitate so [Page 150] much?-Well, I believe it is the understanding that they must fish to the master.
6029. When did you receive your citation to come here?-On 9th January.
6030. Have you spoken to any one on the subject since?-Yes.
6031. To whom?-I could not read the writing, and I asked a man to read it for me.
6032. Who was that man?-Mr. William Irvine.
6033. Is he Mr. Anderson's shopkeeper at Ollaberry?-Yes.
6034. Did you go to the shop for the purpose of asking him to read it to you?-I had other errands besides that.
6035. But you were at the shop, and you asked him?-Yes.
6036. Did he read it to you?-Yes.
6037. Did you say anything to him about it?-I told him I did not understand it, and I would like if he would explain it.
6038. Did he explain it?-Yes.
6039. What did he tell you about it?-He said I need not be afraid to go, and that I should tell the truth.
6040. Was that all that passed?-I don't remember anything else.
6041. Had you much conversation on the subject?-Oh no.
6042. Did he tell you what you would be asked about?-The special thing he told me I would be asked about would be what had taken place between me and himself.
6043. What did he tell you about that?-He told me to take any books with me, as I was requested to take pass-books or documents.
6044. Did he tell you that the principal thing you would be asked about would be your dealings with the man you were fishing to?- Yes.
6045. That is Mr Adie?-Yes.
6046. Did he tell you you would be asked anything about your dealings with your landlord?-No; he told me nothing about that. I asked him if there was any use taking my land receipt, and he said he did not think there was. That was all that passed about it.
6047. Was that all that passed between you about anything?-All that I remember.
6048. I am asking you these questions, only because you hesitated so much in some of your answers. You said the people at Ollaberry were under an obligation to fish for their landlord?- As I supposed.
6049. In point of fact, do all the men there who go to the home fishing fish for Mr. Anderson?-I cannot say whether all of them do it.
6050. Do you know whether most of them do it?-I cannot tell.
6051. Are you acquainted with all the people in Ollaberry?-No; I have only been four years there. I am a stranger on that side, so that I don't know many of the people.
6052. Do you know most of the people within a mile or two of you?-I don't think I do. I could not mention them by name.
6053. But you have spoken to most of them?-I think I have.
6054. Do they all fish for Mr. Anderson in the home fishing?-[No answer.]
6055. Do you know, or do you not? If you do not know, say so?- I believe they do; but I don't know.
6056. Have you ever known any man who wished to engage to another fish-curer, or to cure his own fish, or sell his fish as he pleased, during the season in Ollaberry?-No; there are none of the men who do that.
6057. Do you keep a shop account with Mr. Adie at Voe?-My dealings are there, for the most part.
6058. Is there any shop of Mr. Adie's nearer to your house than Voe?-I cannot say.
6059. How far is it to Voe from your house?-I have heard it called thirteen miles; but I don't know.
6060. Are you married?-Yes.
6061. Have you a family?-Yes.
6062. Where do you buy your provisions?-I buy provisions in Voe, or in any other shop, just as suits my convenience.
6063. Do you sometimes buy them at the Ollaberry shop?- Sometimes.
6064. Anywhere else besides Voe?-Yes, I buy sometimes at other places. I have bought something at Mr. Anderson's shop at Hillswick.
6065. Anywhere else?-Yes, I have had some things elsewhere too.
6066. Where?-At Usiness, at Mr. Gilbert Nicholson's.
6067. Has he a shop of his own there?-Yes; shop is his own, so far as I know.
6068. But you get most of your provisions at Voe, and you keep an account in Mr. Adie's books all the year round, which is settled about the end of the year?-Yes.
6069. Is the settlement always before the New Year, or is it sometimes later?-Sometimes it is later, but it is generally before.
6070. Have you got a pass-book?-Yes. [Produces it.]
6071. Have you generally a balance of cash to get at the end of the year from Mr. Adie?-No.
6072. Are you generally in his debt to some extent at the end of the year?-Yes.
6073. How much were you in debt last settlement?-It was for something over £7.
6074. Have you always been in his debt?-Not always.
6075. How long is it since you had a balance to get?-I am not sure, but I think it is four years ago.
6076. I see from your pass-book that you have got a number of sums of cash paid to you. There are 16s., 8s., 2s. 6d. twice, 9d., 1s. 2d., and 3s. in cash, between December 23, 1870, and November 27, 1871: did you always get these advances of cash to account of the fishing that was going on during this season?-I always got the cash when I asked it.
6077. Did you get these advances to account of the fishing that was going on last season?-I was at the fishing last year.