6923. What you got from the shop was what you call small stores?-Yes.
6924. Did you get anything from Mr. Leask's shop except your small stores and your outfit?-Yes; I bought some meal and took it home.
6925. Did you do that more than once?-I bought some for myself, and I bought some when I went out first in spring, and sent it home.
6926. Were these the things that you wanted to have entered in the pass-book?-Yes; these things of my own small stores and clothes, and anything I required.
6927. Did you get these articles at many different times in the course of the year, or did you just get them once or twice when you came home?-I got them twice.
6928. How often does your boat generally come home from the Faroe fishing in the course of the season?-We generally make two voyages; last year we made three.
6929. And you would be getting something additional each time you came home?-Yes. All we require is small stores for every voyage.
6930. What amount of the price of your fish did you get at settling time in these two years when you were at the Faroe fishing?-Last year I got an account for £17, and this year it was £22.
6931. That was the whole price of your fish?-Yes.
6932. But how much had you to get in money at the end of the year on the whole of your account?-I had £16 odds to get last year, and this year I had £10.
6933. Was that all paid to you in money at the settlement?-If I had liked to take it all in money I could have got it, but I did not take it all. I left some money in the book in Mr. Leask's shop.
6934. Then your account is still standing in his book?-Yes.
6935. What was your reason for sending meal home to your people from Lerwick?-I suppose the reason was, because they could not get a supply at home from Mr. Anderson, whom they were serving.
6936. Was that about the time when your father left off fishing for him?-Yes, that was about the time.
6937. Did you ever work as a beach boy here?-No; I was always at school before I went to the fishing.
Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, JOHN SANDISON, examined.
6938. Are you a fisherman?-I am.
6939. Have you got some land?-Yes; I live on a farm in Hillswick along with my father. The land we have belongs to the Busta estate.
6940. Do you go to the home fishing?-Yes.
6941. For whom do you fish?-For Mr. Anderson. I have fished for him and his brother for upwards of twenty years. I went to the fishing when I was a little boy. I never was at the beach.
6942. Do you settle every year for your fishing?-Yes; about the middle of November.
6943. You have an account of your own in Mr. Anderson's ledger?-Yes.
6944. Do you get supplies of goods from his shop?-Yes.
6945. Do you get your goods anywhere else?-Yes, occasionally.
6946. Where?-Perhaps from Laurence Smith or from Arthur Harrison, just as may suit my convenience.
6947. What quantity do you get at these different shops? Do you get more at one than at another?-Yes; I get most from Mr. Anderson's.
6948. Do you get the same kind of goods there as at Smith's and Harrison's?-Yes, much the same.
6949. Then what is your reason for going to them?-I have had little employment from Smith for the last two years, which led me to take a few supplies from him.
6950. Did you fish for him?-No; I was employed by him at other kinds of work-principally boat-building during the winter and spring.
6951. Have you an account with Mr. Smith for boat-building?- Yes.
6952. Do you take goods in settlement of that account?-Yes; but it is just because I think it right myself. I am in no way compelled to do so.
6953. But you keep an account with Smith, and the goods you get are put on one side of it, and the amount of your payment for boat-building is put on the other?-Yes; until the time of settlement.
6954. What is the time of settlement for boat-building?-Much about the same time as for the other-some time in November or December.
6955. Do you get money whenever you ask it for your boat-building?-Yes; if I was to ask for money, I would get it.
6956. Do you get money during the season from Mr. Anderson for your fishing when you ask for it?-Yes; I never was refused money at any time.
6957. Did you ever ask for it except at settling time?-Yes.
6958. How much did you ask for?-Small sums.
6959. You said the reason why you went to Laurence Smith for some of your goods was, because you were employed by him: is it a general sort of understanding that when a man is employed by a merchant, he deals with him for his goods?-To a certain extent it is.
6960. He is not altogether bound to do it?-No, not in my experience.
6961. But is it thought fair and proper that he should take a certain quantity of his goods from that merchant?-If a merchant gives a man employment, and he has the goods as good and as cheap as they can be got elsewhere, it is generally thought that the man should take his goods from him.
6962. Would it not be better to get your payments in cash at shorter periods, rather than to have the whole of your money paid to you at the end of the year?-I don't know.
6963. Do you not forget what quantity of goods you have got from the merchant in the course of the year?-Oh no. We can easily remember what goods we have had; and besides, we generally keep accounts of our own; at least I do so.
6964. Have you got a pass-book in which are entered all the goods you receive from Mr. Anderson?-Yes [produces pass-book].
6965. How long have you kept that passbook?-I think it is from 1865 or 1866 to the present time.
6966. Is that just a copy of the account that is entered in Mr. Anderson's book?-Yes.
6967. I see here an entry of a payment to Mr. Inkster: what was that for?-I asked Mr. Anderson to make it.
6968. Were you in Mr. Anderson's debt at the time?-I don't think I was.
6969. Is there any entry here showing how you are settled with at the end of the year?-Yes [showing]; the balance in 1870 was £14, 8s. 7d.
6970. You live with your father?-Yes.
6971. And you take meal from Mr. Anderson for the supply of your father's family?-Yes, at times, when they require it.
6972. Is the meal which you get there of good [Page 168] quality?-Yes; it is the same as we can get anywhere else in the country.
6973. Have you compared the price of the meal which you get there with the prices at which you can get it elsewhere?-Yes.
6974. Have you got meal from Lerwick?-Yes; and when the cost of carriage came to be added to it, it was much the same price as at Mr. Anderson's.
6975. Have you tried that more than once?-Yes.
6976. Is the flour of good quality?-Yes; the flour is not bad, and the price is just about the same as at Lerwick after adding something for carriage.
Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, LAURENCE ANDERSON, examined.
6977. Are you a fisherman?-Yes; I have been a fisherman for some time.
6978. Have you got any land, or do you live with your father?-I am living with my father.
6979. Who do you fish for?-I have fished for Laurence Smith for three years.
6980. Do you settle with him every year in winter?-Yes.
6981. Have you an account with him for the articles which you get from his shop?-Yes.
6982. Have you generally a balance to get in cash at the end of the year?-Yes. If there is anything coming to me then, I get it.
6983. When did you settle with him last?-I settled for last year about two months ago.
6984. How much was due to you then?-I was due him a little; but it was not much.
6985. Were you due him anything when you settled for the year before?-I was.
6986. And the year before that?-No; the year before that I was clear. I had something to get the year before.
6987. When you have anything to get at the end of the year, is it paid to you in money?-No; I have not got any money.
6988. When there was a balance due to you three years ago, did you not get it in money?-No, I did not ask it.
6989. It was left standing, and was carried into the next account?-Yes.
6990. And you got goods for it as you required them?-Yes.
6991. Is it a usual thing for the men here to get their balances in money?-No; they don't get them in money.
6992. How do they get them?-They get supplies, and perhaps they may get a little money.
6993. Given after settlement?-Yes.
6994. Have you a pass-book?-Yes [produces it].
6995. That book commences in 1870. Had you no pass-book before?-No.
6996. Would you not be better to be paid in cash for the whole of what was due to you?-Yes; but I have never got the cash.
6997. But could you not have got it in cash, instead of taking all these goods, if you had liked?-No. I have been a poor man now for the time that is past, and I have never had the money, and I could not get it.
6998. You required to get supplies and you could not pay for them in money?-Yes. I always got what wanted from this man; he did not keep anything back, but the money I did not have to get. I did not have money, and I could not get it.
6999. Did you begin to work as a beach boy?-Yes. I was two years at Hillyar fishing station first, and then at Ollaberry.
7000. Was that for Mr. Anderson?-No; it was for Mr. George Henry.
7001. What did you get as a beach boy?-I got 20s. the first year; and I was there three months.
7002. Was that as long ago as ten years?-Yes, it will be ten years since I first went to it.
7003. How was that 20s. paid to you?-I just got what I required from him at the time.
7004. Had you any money to get at the end of the first year?-No, not at the end of the first year; but the second year I had 10s. to get, and I got it.
7005. How many years were you a beach boy?-Five years.
7006. During that time you always had an account with your employer?-Yes.
7007. Were you always with the same employer?-No; I was two years with Mr. Henry, and three years with Mr. Anderson.
7008. Had you always a little balance of money to get at the end of the year from Mr. Anderson?-No. The first year I was clear; the second year I was due very little, but the third year I was due something. Then, the first year I was at the haaf, I fished for Mr. Anderson.
7009. Could you have gone to fish for anybody else that year if you had liked?-Yes; but I made a bargain that year to fish for him.
7010. Was it because you were in his debt that you made a bargain to fish for him?-Yes. I had nothing for supplies, and I got my supplies the first year from him.
7011. Would you have got your supplies from Mr. Anderson and still have been at liberty to engage with anybody else for the haaf?-No.
7012. Why?-I did not engage with any other body that year.
7013. But would you have been at liberty to have done that if you had liked?-I don't know. If I had been clear with Mr. Anderson, I might have had my liberty.
7014. You thought you were not at liberty because, you were not clear?-Yes.
7015. Were you told you were not at liberty to engage with anybody after you had got your supplies from Mr. Anderson?-No.
7016. You just wanted the supplies, and you went and engaged yourself to him?-Yes. Of course, I had to get my supplies, and I just got them from the man that I was to engage with.
7017. But nobody asked you to engage for the haaf?-Yes.
7018. Is it usual for men to be engaged for the haaf fishing so early as November?-Yes; most of them are engaged then.
7019. Although the haaf fishing does not begin until six months afterwards?-Yes.
7020. What is their reason for engaging so early in the season?- Most of time, when they are settling up, engage for a new year. They make up their crews then.
7021 Is it more convenient for the men to make up their crews then?-Yes.
7022. Why?-Because they know then who are to go together in the rising year.
7023 Do they get supplies more readily from the merchants if they make up their crews at that time and engage to fish for the following year?-Yes, when they are in debt.
7024. Is that one reason why the men sometimes make up their crews and make their engagements so soon?-I don't know, but I believe there is something in that.
7025. Was that the reason why you engaged so early that first year when you went to the fishing?-It was because I was in debt that year when I left the beach.
7026. Have you been in debt in other years?-Yes. I was in debt to Mr. Anderson at settling time for the first year I fished for him. I left him because I was in debt, and could not get supplies.
7027. In what year was that?-I think it is about six years ago
7028. What was the amount of your debt?-I believe it was about £5 odds.
7029. Is it a usual thing for a man to leave the service of a merchant because he is in his debt?-I don't know; but I could not get supplies from him, [Page 169] and as I had to get them somewhere, I went to another merchant for them.
7030. Have you paid up that £5?-I have not.
7031. Have you been asked to do so?-I was summoned once.
7032. Did you go to court about it?-I did not.
7033. Did you hear nothing more about it?-Of course, I paid a little of it after I got the summons.
7034. How much did you pay then?-About 12s.
7035. How long ago is that?-It will be three years ago now.
7036. Are you going to pay the rest of it?-I don't know. I would never have refused to pay it if I had been able to pay.
7037. Do you live with your father?-Yes; but my father is a poor man, and I am the same, and I have not made much money.
7038. Is it a common thing for a man to leave the employment of a merchant when he is a little bit in his debt, and cannot get supplies?-Of course I had to leave Mr. Anderson.
7039. But is that a common thing?-I don't know.
7040. Have you known many men who have done it?-No; there are not many that I know of. I could not live, and for that reason I had to leave Mr. Anderson. I gave myself up to fish for him next season if he wanted it, but he told me as much as that he would not have me, and that I must look out for myself, and I did so.
7041. When was that?-Three years ago.
7042. Did you offer to go back to him then?-I offered to stay with him, and I went and asked for a little supply, but he would not grant it, and for that reason I had to leave him.
7043. Was the reason why he would not accept you, because you could not work without supply, or was there any other reason?-I cannot say exactly what the reason was.
7044. What did he say about it?-He told me that I was to make the best of myself that I could, and did so. I left him and fished for the merchant I am now with.
7045. You were a little above £5 in debt then?-Yes; between £5 and £6.
7046. Had you been as much in debt for years before?-No. I had never been in debt before I went to Mr. Anderson. I was three years with him at the fish-curing; and I was a little behind the first year I went to the haaf, but it was not a great deal.
Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, ALEXANDERSANDISON, examined.
7047. You are the father of a previous witness?-I am.
7048. Did you hear the evidence which your son gave?-Yes.
7049. Do you settle for your fishing at the end of the year in the same way that he does?-When I was going to the fishing I did.
7050. You don't go to the fishing now?-No; I have not gone for the last three years. I am too old.
7051. For whom did you fish when you were at it?-The last time I was at the fishing it was for Mr. Anderson.
7052. Had you generally a balance in cash to get at the end of the year?-Occasionally.
7053. Was there oftener a balance to get, or a balance against you?-There was oftener a balance to get if the seasons turned out good, or if anything occurred to make them good; but when anything took place to render the season a bad one then there was something due and it was put against me.
7054. When you were in debt to Mr. Anderson, was there any necessity for you to engage to him for the following year?-No.
7055. Might you have engaged to anybody you liked?-Yes. I had my freedom; there was no compulsion.
7056. Did you generally engage to him?-Yes.
7057. Was there any other person to whom you could have sold your fish?-Yes; provided it had been necessary for me to have done so; but I saw no occasion for it.
7058. You never wished to do that?-No; not in the least.
7059. Do you think it would be any advantage to the fishermen to have a price fixed for their fish at the beginning of the season, so that they might know what they were to get?-In some seasons it might be, but with the fall and rise in the markets it is so uncertain. It might be a gain or it might be a loss; they could not tell until the time came for settlement.
7060. I suppose the fishermen have nothing to do with fixing the price of the fish?-No; it has not been customary for them to have anything to do with that.
7061. It has been the practice to leave it altogether to the fish merchant?-Yes; so far as ever I knew.
7062. Are there any complaints about the way in which the price is fixed?-There certainly are some men who make it grievance of it; but they are men who would not be satisfied if the thing were done in any other way.
7063. What do you think about it yourself?-I cannot say.
7064. Have you no opinion about it at all?-Very little. It does not concern me much. I have got too old now to be able to do anything in the way of changing it.
7065. Do any of your family knit?-Yes; but that is it thing I don't interfere with.
7066. Is it usual for the father of a family not to interfere with his wife and daughters' account for hosiery?-They manage their own affairs and their accounts themselves and we never interfere with them in any way.
7067. Do they sometimes help to keep the house?-Yes; in every way they can.
7068. But do they sometimes help with their hosiery to provide for the house?-Yes; occasionally, when it falls in their way.
7069. In this part of the country I understand they get provisions for their hosiery?-Yes; to a certain extent, when required.
7070. But you have nothing to do with their accounts or their books?-No; I have no concern with them. They see their own books and are satisfied with them.
7071. Does a man's wife keep her own book for hosiery and settle it herself?-Yes.
7072. Is it the same with the eggs?-Yes.
7073. The wife takes the eggs and sells them, and puts them into her own account?-Yes. She takes them away and brings back any stuff she wishes to get for them. That is the usual practice, and it has been so all my days.
7074. How are the people paid for their eggs? Are they paid in goods?-If they choose they get bread, tea, sugar, or anything else they want; or if they are not pleased to take that, they can get the price.
7075. Would it not be better to get the money for them?-It might be, if there was any need for it; but if they are requiring the goods, I don't see any use for taking the price and going to another shop with it.
7076. Then, with regard to the fishing, you say that the man who has money to get will get it, but the man who does not have it to get will not get it?-I fished last for Mr. Anderson, that is three years ago, and I have seen me have a good deal to get; but a man who had no cash due to him could not get it. I have been a little in debt sometimes, it was not much, but I could not get any cash until I paid off my debt. I could have got anything I wanted out of the shop, provided it was in small quantities; and I should have been sorry to look for anything more until the book was clear. When that was done, then I could get it to my satisfaction.
7077. When your book was not clear, would you have considered yourself bound to go to fish for Mr. Anderson until it was clear?- Yes.
7078. You thought it was fair that you should fish for him until your debt was paid?-Yes.
[Page 170]
7079. Did it often happen, in the course of your experience, that you were a little behind in that way?-Yes.
7080. And at such times you always thought it right to go to fish for him?-Yes; so that I might clear it off by my fishing.
7081. Were you ever objected to for selling your fish away from Mr. Anderson?-No.
7082. Did you not require to do that sometimes, in order to get a little cash?-No.
7083. Do you think the fishermen are as well off now as they used to be long ago, or are they better off?-They are much better off now than they were in my young days, because at that time married men who had families only got from 4s. to 6s. for their fish; while young men who were not married, and did not require it so much, got 7s. or 6s. 6d. or 6s. Now they get an equal price, and I think 6s. or 7s. is a good price. When the fishing turns out to be successful, it pays them very well.
7084. Have you always been satisfied with the quality of the things which you got from your fish-merchant's store?-Yes.
7085. Did you get anything at all at any other store when you were fishing?-No; but I was only a short time at the fishing. I was at sea for fifty years, sailing to Davis Straits and all round the globe, and I only gave that up when I could not go any longer.
7086. How many years were you fishing at the haaf?-Only four years.
7087. You were a sailor in the merchant service before that?- Yes.
7088. Did you go to Greenland too?-Yes; I went twenty-seven voyages to Davis Straits.
7089. Where did you ship for that?-From Lerwick.
7090. Who engaged you there?-There were various agents. I generally engaged with Mr. Hay. I think I went ten or twelve voyages for him.
7091. When did you last go to the whale fishing?-I think it was about 1850 or 1851.
7092. How were the men's wages paid then?-It was by so much per month and an allowance of oil-money besides.
7093. Did you get an advance when you shipped?-Yes.
7094. And did you get an outfit from the agent who engaged you?-If you required it, it was there for you; and if not, you got your advance, and could take it where you pleased.
7095. Did you generally get your outfit from the agent in Lerwick who engaged you?-Yes.
7096. When you came back from your Greenland voyage, in what way did you settle?-Those who lived at a distance would get £2 or £3 if the voyage had been good, and they had money to get; and then they would go home and come back at Martinmas to settle with the agent. There was an account kept against them in the book which they had to settle at that time.
7097. What quantity of goods did you generally have in your account with the agent at Lerwick?-The greatest part of them were sea-going clothes.
7098. You did not generally get supplies from him for your families?-No; not very often.
7099. In those times did you ever get your outfit from any person except the agent who engaged you?-No; we always got it from the agent who engaged us. We could change the agent if we thought we could make any better of it, but they were nearly all about the same.
Hillswick, Northmaven: Friday, January 12, 1872.
DAVID GREIG, examined.
7100. You have been for a long time in the employment of Messrs. Hay & Co.?-I have been with them for nearly twenty-three years-first in their Lerwick house, and I have been manager for them at North Roe for ten years.
7101. North Roe is part of the Gossaburgh estate?-Yes.
7102. Do you manage the fishings on that estate in Northmaven parish, as well as those in Yell?-There is a separate management in Yell, so far as the rents are concerned. In Yell there is part of the estate on the west side of the island, and part on the east side. I have nothing to do with the fishermen on the east side, only with those on the west side.
7103. The fishermen on the west side deliver their fish where?- At Feideland.
7104. That is one of your stations?-Yes.
7105. You have prepared a note of the tenants or holdings upon the estate, in which the number is stated to be 56: is that in this parish only, or in Yell also?-These are the farms or holdings in this parish.
7106. Are they entirely under your management?-Yes.
7107. The note also states that the gross rental last year was £193, 7s. 6d., of which £17 is for Hay & Co., and the gross rental charged to tenants is £176, 7s. 6d.?-Yes.
7108. The £17 is allowed for land held by Hay & Co. themselves?-Yes; land and islands belonging to the estate on which they graze.
7109. Do you know the amount of the tack duty payable by Hay & Co. for that estate?-Not exactly. I think it is somewhere about £130 or £140; but then they have to pay all public burdens, and they have no claim against the proprietor for repairs on the property. They do all the repairs at their own expense, and keep up the property.
7110. So that it is not calculated that upon the rents payable by the fishermen, Hay & Co. have any surplus?-I don't think it. When the expense of management is taken off, I don't think they will have anything.
7111. I understand the fishermen hold their land subject to the condition of fishing during summer for Hay & Co.?-It is usually understood so.
7112. And I presume that is the advantage which Hay & Co. chiefly derive from their tack?-It was with a view to that that they entered into it.
7113. What is the average rent payable by each fisherman?-The average rental charged to fishermen is 3 guineas for each holding. The highest is £6, and the lowest is £2, 7s. I may say that the rents on that estate have not been altered for over 50 years, while other estates have been raised very considerably. The land there is, I think, much cheaper than it is throughout Shetland generally.
7114. Do you think the rents would bear an increase?-In comparison with other places, a very considerable increase.
7115. How many of the tenants fished last year in the summer fishing at North Roe?-Thirty-three.
7116. Of the rest, how many were unfit for fishing, and how many were engaged in other fishings?-I think there were three tenants fishing to other curers.
7117. In the summer fishing?-Yes; there were two at Faroe and two or three, two at least, sailing south. Others were employed as fish-curers and tradesmen, and in other capacities.
[Page 171]
7118. There were three fishing for other curers: was that by permission or sufferance?-By sufferance, not by permission.
7119. No objection was taken to them doing so?-No; and no consequences have followed.
7120. Was that about an average number of men fishing for other curers, or was it greater or less than usual?-I think there have been fewer in some years; and in some years I think there have been none at all.
7121. You employed nine deep-sea boats at North Roe?-Yes, in this parish.
7122. And you had also some crews from Yell?-Yes; there were four deep-sea boats from Yell.
7123. There were also some small boats?-Yes.
7124. What distinction is there between the small boats and the large ones?-There is no difference in the fishings to which they go. They fish for the same sort of fish; but the small boats do not carry so large a crew, and the boats themselves are not so large. Generally these small boats belong to the men themselves; the large boats are hired from Messrs. Hay & Co.
7125. Is the boat hire the same with you as in other places?-No; it is less. In some places they charge 50s. and as high as £3; but in our case it has never been above 48s.
7126. That includes the lease of the boat for the season?-Yes.
7127. What else?-Nothing but the material belonging to the boat: she is made seaworthy, and everything belonging to the boat is supplied,-sails, oars, cordage, compass, and everything else.
7128. How are the lines provided?-The lines are given to the men, on their own account, at the usual selling price, and they are allowed to pay for them in three years.
7129. Are there any other articles which are furnished to the men as part of their outfit for the summer fishing?-I don't think there is anything else. Of course they have their sea clothing, and provisions and things of that kind, to get when they engage for the fishing.
7130. Are all these usually or invariably supplied by Hay & Co. from their shop?-No; not invariably. I have known one or two cases where the parties have sent to Lerwick and bought their goods there; but those parties who have done so have found it was not a profitable thing, and have come back to me again.
7131. I suppose the carriage was expensive?-There was the carriage and the inconvenience of sending for them, and they had no profit by doing it.
7132. Do you mean that the price at Lerwick was as high as at North Roe?-Yes; we generally endeavour to charge about the Lerwick prices, only adding something for the carriage.
7133. How many fishermen were employed by you last year altogether?-There were 98 altogether; 28 from Yell and 70 from Northmaven, in 16 boats.
7134. Have you made any note from your books of the total amount of the earnings of these men?-I think that last year it was approximately about £1220.
7135. Is that the total amount of their earnings from fishing, or does it include sums due to the men from any other source?-That is their earnings from the fishing alone.
7136. It does not include any stock that may have been purchased from them, or their payment for any other sort of work which they may have done for you?-No. It is taken from the book in which I keep the private accounts against Hay & Co. I have to charge them with that sum for the fish bought and paid for, in the ordinary course of business.
7137. Have you got your books here?-Yes. I was not called upon by my citation to bring them, but I have brought them.
7138. You were not called upon by your citation to bring them, because it was thought that, in consequence of the distance you had to come, it might cause you an unreasonable amount of inconvenience. Is it from these books that you have made up this statement?-Not from this book [showing]. It has been made up from the statement kept in a private ledger with Hay & Co. It could, however, be got from the books I have brought by going over the accounts.
7139. You have also made a note of the average earnings of the men?-Yes. It will be a little over £12.
7140. Does that apply only to the 98 men you have mentioned?- Yes.
7141. Or does it also include the earnings of the boys and men employed in curing?-No; it does not include that. It is merely the fishermen.
7142. You say in your note that it includes men and boys?-Yes; there is a fee'd boy in each boat, and he is included in the general average. The fees are paid to the boys by the fishermen off their earnings.
7143. Of the 98, how many will be boys so fee'd?-There were 8 in North Roe, and 3 in Yell; that is 11 fee'd boys out of the 98.
7144. What is the amount of the fee of each boy?-I think from £2 to 50s.; and then they have an allowance to carry two lines or buchts, and they get the fish caught by them. They take their chance of the fishing of these two lines.
7145. Do they sell these fish to you?-Yes.
7146. Will the takes from these lines be anything like equal to the fees paid to the boys?-I think in or two cases this year, the lads' fishing was more than their fee.
7147. Have the men themselves private lines of that kind?-I don't think so.
7148. I was told elsewhere that such a practice sometimes existed?-Perhaps it may, but I don't think it exists in this part of the country.
7149. Then, from £1220 as the earnings of the fishing, I suppose you would deduct £18 or £20 for the nine boys?-Yes, or about £20 or £25; I think that would be enough. That would leave the average for the men much higher than I have put it there.
7150. It would leave about £13, 8s. 6d. as the average earnings of the men?-Yes.
7151. How much was the cash paid at settlement?-£553 and £170 additional approximately for rent.
7152. That was entered in account to the credit of the men?-Yes; that is taken off their fishings.
7153. So that the average amount paid in cash would be about £8?-Yes; and if you deduct about £2 for each man for boat hire and provisions through the year, then the difference between the £8 and what is paid at the stations would give what is supplied to their families during the season.
7154. Adding about £2 for the amount of boat hire, lines, and the supplies at the fishing station, that makes the £10, and the balance of £3, 8s. 6d. consists of supplies to the families during the year?-Yes.
7155. Are most of these men's families resident near your shop at North Roe?-I think the farthest distant is about three miles; and these are very few, only about half-a-dozen families. The rest are all quite near.
7156. Do the families have many cash transactions at your shop in addition to those that enter the account?-I think so.
7157. Have you any idea what becomes of the remainder of the money that is paid in cash at the end of the year?-I have often to transmit cash to Hay & Co. which has been received at the shop through the year, being returned to it for purchases.
7158. That shows that there is a considerable amount of the cash spent in your shop after being paid to the men at settlement?- Yes.
7159. Have you any notion of what that might amount to in a single year?-It varies very much.
7160. Would it be £100 or £200?-No; I don't think it is so much as that.
7161. Are there other shops in your neighbourhood where the men and their families are in the habit of dealing for their groceries?- They deal at several other shops. There is one small shop, Mr. John Inkster's, quite near ours. The next is Mr. Laurenson's, about three miles off; and the people sometimes go to Ollaberry and Hillswick.
[Page 172]
7162. You have reason to believe that some of their cash receipts go to these shops?-I think that is sometimes the case, and some of their payments again come back to me-I mean that some of those who are receiving cash from Mr. Laurenson and others come back to me in turn.
7163. Can you say how many of the 98 men whom you employ are in debt to Hay & Co. at the end of the season?-I don't think there are six overdrawn accounts.
7164. But that has been after a favourable year?-Yes; it has been a very favourable year, and that is a smaller number than usual.
7165. Do you find that men who are in your debt are generally inclined to fish for you in the following year?-I have never had any difficulty in that way.
7166. Do they generally come to you as a matter of course and engage for the following season?-As a rule, I have endeavoured to keep the men out of debt as much as possible and I have always found it to be the best principle.
7167. But do the men who are in your debt generally come to you to fish for the following year, in order to wipe off their debt?-I don't think that in my ten years experience a single man has left the employment in consequence of being in debt.
7168. Have you in some years had a much larger number than six men in your debt at settlement?-Yes. I could not give the exact numbers; but there have been much larger numbers than that.
7169. Perhaps three or four times as many?-I should think so.
7170. The greater number of the men at the station?-No; but perhaps one-half of them may have been in debt in an unfavourable year.
7171. Was that long ago?-We had a turn of unfavourable years I think four or five years ago.
7172. Did their indebtedness sometimes run over a series of years?-In two or three cases it has done so.
7173. But not in many cases?-No. I can only think of three cases just now.
7174. Did these men continue to fish for you until their debt was cleared off?-Yes.
7175. Do you remember the amount of the largest debt of that kind you have ever had in your books?-No; I have never had occasion to take that out. My inventory is taken in the month of May, when half the year is gone, and when half the debts are incurred, and then they have got considerable supplies for the rising season.
7176. Do you purchase kelp?-Yes.
7177. Are there two prices paid to the women for it?-Yes. For the past two or three years the price has been 4s. 6d. in goods or 4s. in cash, with a royalty course to the proprietor.
7178. You have to pay a royalty to the proprietor besides what you pay to the women?-Messrs. Hay & Co. are the lessees of the shores, and they reserve that right to themselves, the same as if they were the proprietors.
7179. Is there a royalty paid by the gatherers to Hay & Co.?-It is taken off the price; because if the shores belonged to anybody else they would have to pay it.
7180. Who would have to pay it?-Hay & Co. I think it is generally understood that the buyer of the kelp shall pay the royalty to the proprietor.
7181. But Hay & Co. are not both proprietors and lessees?-They are in the same position as the proprietor, and they buy the kelp too.
7182. How does the royalty enter your accounts?-It does not appear in the accounts at all. The price paid to the makers is just 4s. 6d. in goods or 4s. in cash.
7183. Do you mean that an ordinary lessee would have to pay a royalty to the proprietor in addition to the cost of the purchase of the kelp?-I mean that if Hay & Co. were not buying the kelp themselves, but were letting the shores to some other party, that party would be accountable to Hay & Co. for the royalty.
7184. Therefore you don't allow for any royalty as forming part of the tack duty payable by Hay & Co. to the proprietor?-No. I think it is understood or expressed in their lease that they should have the kelp shores.
7185. Then the profit made on sales of kelp by Hay & Co. is larger than that of other lessees by the amount of the royalty usually paid by them?-Yes.
7186. Why do you fix a different price in goods and in cash for kelp?-Because I think the utmost value is given for the kelp which they are warranted in giving, when it is paid for in goods, and they have a profit on the goods; but when it is paid for in cash they cannot be expected to receive the kelp and give the full value for it without having any profit on it.
7187. Is there no profit on the kelp which you buy at 4s. per cwt. in cash?-Yes; there is a profit upon that; but if we paid 4s. 6d. in cash for it, then there would be no profit.
7188. But you give them 4s. 6d. worth of goods for because you have a profit on the goods?-Yes.
7189. Is there no profit on the kelp when it is bought at 4s. 6d.?- There would not be any, taking the royalty into consideration.
7190. How many tons of kelp do you sell?-I only took a note of it for last year, when there were twelve tons.
7191. At what rate was it sold?-I did not get the account sales, but I understood the price paid in Shetland, free on board, was £5, 10s. per ton.
7192. That is 5s. 6d. per cwt. Will it take 1s. per cwt. to put it on board ship?-No.
7193. Where is it shipped?-The kelp I take is shipped in one of Hay & Co.'s vessels, carried to Simbister, landed there, and re-shipped again.
7194. By free on board, do you mean free on board at Simbister?-Yes.
7195. You think that shipment and re-shipment would not cost 1s. per cwt.?-I don't think it would.
7196. Therefore there would be some margin of profit upon the kelp bought at 4s. 6d. and sold at 5s. 6d.?-If you buy the kelp at 4s. 6d. and pay 1s. of royalty, then it is actually costing you 5s. 6d., and there is no margin left for the expense of receiving and shipping and transhipping again.
7197. But I understood you to say that there was no royalty actually paid by Hay & Co.?-Neither there is; but they have the same right to receive that royalty, or to calculate upon that royalty as if it were paid, they being in the position of proprietors of the property.
7198. You have said that the amount of cash paid to the fishermen at settlement was about £553, and that the average amount due by each man for goods to his family would be £3, 8s. 6d.: would there be no cash advances to them during the season?-Yes.
7199. These would be included in that sum?-Yes.
7200. Would the amount of these advances be material?-I am not prepared to say how much they would be. It would depend upon the necessities of the man. I think in one case they amounted to £12, 9s. 6d.
7201. Was that sum paid in cash before settlement?-Yes.
7202. That would be nearly the amount of his total earnings?-It would be nearly the amount of the average earnings; but that man had very high earnings.
7203. I believe you have made some calculation as to the total amount of summer fish bought: what is it?-During the ten years I have been manager at North Roe, there have been summer fish bought to the value of about £7000; and during the same time the cash paid at settlement has been about £4420. That includes the rents of tenants who have fished; but it does not include the cash advanced to them through the year, which in some years has been pretty considerable. The following is a statement for the last four years, of the value of the fishings, and the amount paid in cash at settlement: Cash Paid at Value of Fishings. Settlement. 1868 About £400 £290 1869 704 335 1870 1003 540 1871 1220 723
[Page 173]
7204. Is there any winter fishing at North Roe?-There is what we call home fishing for nine months of the year in small boats.
7205. But the proper home fishing terminates about August or September?-The haaf fishing terminates about 12th August. After that the men immediately resume fishing in their small boats, and continue it until the middle of May next year.
7206. Are these the small boats you mentioned before as belonging to the men themselves?-Yes.
7207. I think you said that of these there were only two at North Roe?-That was in the summer time; but almost every man on the property has a share of a small boat for the winter fishing.
7208. Are these boats generally purchased from Hay & Co.?-I think since I came there they have generally been purchased from them, but not altogether.
7209. Are they paid for by instalments?-Our bargain for them is, that they are to be paid in three years, and during these three years they stand in separate account in my books.
7210. Is there a separate boat book?-They are entered in the general ledger, but kept in a separate account; and at the expiry of the three years, if it is not paid off, it ought properly to be put to the man's private account, and to become part of his shop account. That is the rule, although, in some cases, I have not carried it out to the extent of carrying it to the man's private account at the close of three years.
7211. Do you generally find that that boat account is paid off within the three years?-No; it is frequently continued longer.
7212. In what way are the fish disposed of that are taken in that small-boat fishing in winter?-They are sold when the men come ashore. I tell the men what price will be paid; and if they agree to take that price, receive the fish and pay for them every time they are delivered.
7213. Is that paid to them in cash?-They are at liberty to take cash, or to buy goods, or do anything they like; but we never leave these transactions unsettled.
7214. In point of fact, is it generally cash that passes, or do the men take what goods they want at the shop?-In many cases, I think in most cases, if the fishing is small, perhaps they want as much, or pretty near the value, when they come ashore, out of the shop in goods for their houses; but if they have been having a few days' successful fishing, then they take the cash when they don't require the goods. They are not asked to take the goods; and they are not required to do it in any way.
7215. Are they bound to sell these fish to you in the same way as their summer fish?-I think that is understood; but there have been many exceptions that I have known.
7216. Are there more exceptions in the case of this small-boat fishing than of the summer fishing?-I think so.
7217. Have you any note or book here, showing the amount of the transactions with regard to this small-boat fishing?-No. I have offered the men, when they came ashore, to pay them for their haul, and then they could go where they liked with the money; but they said, 'What is the use of doing that?-We want so-and-so from the shop, and we would just have to give the money back again.'
7218. How is it ascertained at the shop what amount the men have to get in goods for their fish? Do you take a note of it at the time?-Yes; and I enter it in the fish book.
7219. And from that note you know how much the man has to receive in goods?-Yes; or how much he has to receive in cash.
7220. But he takes the goods if he chooses to go to the shop at the time?-Yes.
7221. What amount of transactions of that kind may there be in the course of a year?-Last year I think it was only about £56.
7222. Was that the whole value of the fish so purchased?-Yes; but I think in some years since I came there it has been over £100.
7223. It is only the North Roe men you are speaking of now?- Yes.
7224. The Yell men don't deliver their fish to you in that way?- No; not generally.
7225. Then that sum would be paid to about 33 men?-I think there are more than that who engage in the winter fishing. Some of the men who go to the Faroe fishing, and some also who go south, employ their time in winter in that way.
7226. That would make it a very small sum that is paid to the men for their winter fishing?-Yes; it is very small.
7227. So that it rather seems the winter fishing is hardly worth taking into account in your general transactions?-It is not.
7228. Do Messrs. Hay & Co. purchase cattle to any extent for the purpose of selling them?-They have an island, the island of Uyea, where they graze for their own purposes.
7229. Is that in Unst?-No; it is in this parish. I buy the cattle for that island yearly.
7230. Is it simply for grazing purposes there that you buy the cattle?-For no other purpose.
7231. Are they bought at public sales?-Generally they are.
7232. Do these cattle enter the accounts of the fishermen?-Yes, mostly. They pass through their accounts; but I could show cases where they received the cash again immediately.
7233. Are they not settled for at the annual settlement?-Yes; or they get cash for them at any time they want.
7234. Are these cattle often taken from men who are in arrear with their accounts?-No; they are never taken from the people who are in arrears. If a man was in arrears, he might be asked to bring his cow to the public sale if he was to dispose of her; and then we might buy her or not.
7235. There is said to be a system in Shetland of marking the horns of cattle when the merchant or landlord has a debt against a fisherman tenant: can you explain what the practice is with regard to that?-I believe such a practice does exist; but in my own experience I have never set any value upon it at all, and never practised it at North Roe.
7236. What do you understand the practice to be?-I understand that if any one has a claim against a tenant, either proprietor or merchant or any other party, they consider that if their mark or initials or brand is put upon the horns of the animal, it then becomes their property, even in cases where the animal has not been removed from the possession of the original owner. That is how I understand it has been done in my neighbourhood.
7237. Do you understand that it is usual for the creditor to remove the cattle so marked from the premises of the debtor, and to keep them in his byre or yard for some time, and afterwards to return them upon loan, that removal being understood to be the badge of possession or the sign of the transference of the property?-Yes. I did that myself in one case, but it was not a direct case of that kind. The debtor was the owner of the cow, but another party had the cow in his possession; there was an intermediate party in the matter. I bought it from the man, putting a value upon it, and removed it.
7238. Charging the price to his credit in his account with you?- Yes. I removed it to my own byre and kept it there for some time, and then, as I was not wanting it very much, I gave it back to the poor man who had it originally; but the man I gave it back to was not the debtor at all.
7239. In what way was that third party in possession of it?-I don't know. I think he had reared the animal. There is such a system as giving a calf, if you have too many and don't want it, to another man, and he brings it up; and when the calf comes to be sold, one-half of the proceeds belongs to the original owner.
7240. Then you think this beast may have been in the possession of the party on some such footing as [Page 174] that?-I think it is possible it may have been in that way.
7241. If that was so, your debtor would only be the proprietor of one-half of it in reality?-No; there was something peculiar in this case, because the debtor was the sole owner of the beast.
7242. Then that was not such a case as you have mentioned?-No.
7243. May the possessor of the animal have been another creditor of your debtor who had it?-No; he was not.
7244. Is it possible that he may have hired it from your debtor?-I don't think it.
7245. You think he had it simply in loan?-Yes.
7246. When cattle are taken to market in that way by a creditor, do you know, from the general understanding of the country, how the price is fixed?-In many cases I think there is no price fixed at all.
7247. The animal is just taken generally for security of the debt?-Yes, in the meantime, until it is sold, and then the proceeds go to the party who put on the mark.
7248. These sales, I understand, take place at fixed places in each district, and at certain times in the year?-Yes, in May and October.
7249. They are conducted by public auction?-Yes.
7250. At these auctions does the creditor generally appear and bid for the marked cattle?-I don't think it. It would not avail for him to do so.
7251. Why?-Because any other party at the auction could buy them.
7252. But is the bidding perfectly fair?-Perfectly fair on all occasions.
7253. You do not know that any suspicion exists that any one of the public may not bid, or runs any risk of the displeasure of some powerful neighbour by bidding for cattle that are so marked?-No. I would bid in such at case myself, and I have explained to the country people that if the auctioneer refused a bid from anybody, they could have an action against him for refusing it.
7254. You are now speaking of your own practice, but do you not know that such fear of bidding against a merchant-creditor exists in other parts of the country?-I never heard of such thing, and I do not think it does exist.
7255. Have you known merchants buying in cattle so marked at sales?-There is nothing of the kind practised in our quarter, and I have never observed anything of the kind at sales elsewhere.
7256. Are you aware whether many of the fishermen at your station keep accounts at any of the banks?-I know that some of the men in our neighbourhood do have accounts in the banks for I have transacted such business for some of them.
7257. Is it the case that when a man who has a bank account wants a little money, he prefers to apply to the merchant for an advance to account of his next year's fishing, or of the present year's fishing, if it is during the fishing season, rather than to take it from the bank with which he has the account?-I believe it is. This year I sent £11 for a tenant to be lodged in one of the banks in Lerwick, and when I handed him the deposit receipt, he said, 'Perhaps it will not be long before I want some of this again.' I said to him, 'I think you had better not take any of it out, but let it stand in the bank; and if you want to keep you going until next year, you can get it from me rather than disturb your bank account.'
7258. That was a case in which you were on such terms with the fisherman, and had such confidence in him, that you were ready to make him the advance?-Yes.
7259. But do you know whether it is the practice for fishermen who have funds in the bank privately, to exert themselves somewhat in order to get advances from an unwilling merchant, rather than disturb their own bank account?-I have heard of such a case in our own neighbourhood.
7260. But don't you know of any such cases in your own experience?-No.
7261. Do you know whether it is the practice at all?-I don't know that it is the practice.
7262. Do merchants or shopkeepers who are in the fish trade act as bankers to their men to any extent in this part of the country?- I cannot speak to anything of that kind being done of my own knowledge.
7263. Do none of the fishermen keep money lying in your hands: do they not leave it with you at the settlement?-Very seldom.
7264. Are you an agent for the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society?- No; Hay & Co. are agents in Lerwick for that society, and I send to them for any tickets want.
7265. Do the annual subscriptions enter the accounts of your fishermen at North Roe?-Yes.
7266. When payments are to be made to the men on account of the society, how are these made?-I have never had a case of the kind. There has been only one case where a fisherman had to get money, and he went down to Hay & Co. at Lerwick, and got it himself direct.
7267. Would there be any difficulty, in consequence of the want of banks in the district, in introducing a cash system of payments in a parish like this: I mean the system of paying in cash for fish at more frequent periods, and paying in cash for shop purchases, and also paying in cash for hosiery?-There would certainly a great disadvantage in doing so, in consequence of the want of a bank in our neighbourhood, because there was a cash system of payments, we would have to get larger sums of money from the bank; and to fetch money from the bank, in order to make those payments, would be rather a risky thing, seeing that we must either convey it by special messenger from Lerwick, or by the steamer.
7268. I suppose, however, that if a cash system were common in the country, a branch bank would probably be established at some convenient place?-I don't know about that; I think that, having three banks already in Lerwick, they would hardly be likely to send a bank farther north this way. I don't think the business would pay them to do so.
7269. Are you a member of the parochial board the parish?-I am.
7270. Are you aware whether many persons who are members of the families of fishermen-tenants or crofter-fishermen are supported by the board?-I know several cases of that kind.
7271. Are these persons members of the families of fishermen who have considerable incomes from fishing and from land?-I don't think so. I think that in cases where their children are able to support them they are bound to do so.
7272. But is there an inclination among the people here to get support from the poor's roll to a greater extent than existed some years ago?-I think that feeling is on the increase in the parish, and I think the present poor law tends to increase the feeling.
7273. Do you know what is the usual allowance given to paupers in this parish?-As far as I can recollect, I think it ranges from 1s. 6d. to 15s. a month.
Hillswick, Northmavine, January 12, 1872, MORGAN LAURENSON, examined.
7274. You are a merchant at Lochend?-I am.
7275. Do you deal both in drapery goods and provisions?-Yes; but principally in drapery.
7276. Do you employ any fishermen?-A few; but I only engage in that trade to a small extent.
7277. How many boats do you send out to summer fishing?-I had three boats last year, two large and one small.
7278. Are you a landholder or tacksman?-No.
7279. You engage any fishermen in the neighbourhood who are willing to make a contract with you?-Yes.
[Page 175]
7280. You have no men who are bound to fish for you?-None.
7281. Do you run accounts with the men in the way which has been described by the previous witness and settle with them yearly?-Yes.
7282. Do you find that the balances are generally in the fishermen's favour, or against them?-For the last two years they have generally been in their favour. In former years they were not generally so; they were often against them.
7283. Do fishermen continue for any length of time to fish for you without changing, or do you find that you have different fishermen in your employment in different years?-I have not been very long in the business, only since 1865. I am a new tenant comparatively; but for the past five years, ever since I commenced to have a boat, I have not had many changes.
7284. You must have had fifteen or sixteen fishermen in your employment during that time?-Yes.
7285. Have they generally been the same men throughout?-Yes. Perhaps a man in each boat has gone away to another fish-curer; but generally they have been the same.
7286. Do you think the fact of a man having an account in your books is generally an inducement to him to continue in your employment for the next year?-I could not say that it is so in all cases.
7287. But in some cases it may have that effect?-Yes; in a few cases.
7288. Does a fisherman get accommodation from you, in the shape of supplies of goods more readily if he fishes for you, and agrees to continue to fish, than if he were not in your employment?-Yes.
7289. Are the fishermen generally in a condition to require that accommodation?-Most of them are.
7290. A man may not require it every year, but in the course of half-a-dozen years he is pretty likely, as a general rule, to be in want of some accommodation of that sort?-Yes; that is the case with most of them.
7291. Do you deal in hosiery to a considerable extent?-Yes.
7292. Do you buy it, or do you give out wool to knitters?-I buy it chiefly. We give out wool to those who have not got wool of their own; but many of our knitters, I may say the greater number of them, have their own wool.
7293. The knitting in this district, I understand, is more of the coarser kinds of worsted?-Yes; the finer underclothing is made here, not fancy goods. At least, fancy goods are made only to a very small extent.
7294. But both in the case of knitters employed by you and of people who sell you their goods manufactured with their own wool, is the payment made at your counter in goods or in cash?- Invariably in goods.
7295. Are you often asked to give a portion of the price in cash?- No; very seldom.
7296. Do the knitters run accounts with you?-Yes.
7297. And these are squared up every now and then in your books? -Yes. As a rule, we never run long accounts. The accounts are squared up at short intervals, and the women get a bill at the counter if there is a balance in their favour. They get a note of their purchases in their hands; and my usual mode is, to enter the balance in a bill, which they hold until they return with some other stuff and pay it. I find it is the best plan to keep the accounts short.
7298. At settlement do they get a note?-They get a receipt for the amount paid, and if they have a balance to receive, that is paid in goods over the counter.
7299. If they don't want the goods at the time, how is that arranged?-It is very rarely that they don't take the full value; but if they do not, what remains over is left as a balance, and it is usually carried into a new account. Sometimes they want it on a line, stating that the balance amounts to so much, and that I shall pay it.
7300. Is that line given in the form of an I O U, or of a bill?-I have given it in the form of an I O U, but very rarely. I generally put the name of the party on the line, because in some cases they have lost the lines, and then come back to me, when it was not entered in the book, and asked the value of them. I did not wish to allow them to suffer for that; but as I was afraid that another party might get the line and bring it in, I always put the name on it. 7301. You put the name on it in order to prevent the value of it from being demanded by any person except the one to whom it was granted at first?-Yes. I generally enter the lines in a book now, so that I may be kept safe.