7577. Do you think the merchants may be too tender to their customers?-No doubt of it, and that for the purposes which are explained by the gentlemen whose evidence I agree with. I condemn the system altogether, apart from the men who carry it on. I don't care who the men are; I defy men to be any better than what I find around me, but the system would make them what they are on both sides.
7578. Have you ever had accounts yourself with any of the merchants here?-Not for many years. I might have small accounts for things which had been got from the shop when I was in the south; but, during the first and second years when I was here, I had large accounts to pay, because I had everything to buy from them, and I did not know about how things were conducted in this part of the country.
7579. With reference to parties who are in debt to the merchants, we had a witness yesterday who stated that he had been sued for a debt: had you any intercourse with that man in the way of advising him with regard to the conduct of his case?-None whatever. He was summoned, and the proceedings were going on before ever I heard of it. He and another person came to me, but I refused to give them any advice, and told them to go and get a lawyer to defend themselves. It was very natural for them, in their circumstances, to come and consult the clergyman, and ask him what they should do, but I refused to interfere.
7580. Have you had any dealings with men with regard to payments from the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society, or any society of that kind?-I know something about that. In one case, I remember, there was a considerable loss at sea; more than one boat was wrecked, and a great many men perished, and there was a great deal of sympathy excited in the south.
7581. When was that?-It was a good many years ago-about the time I came here, or a little after. A great deal of sympathy was excited in the south, as is generally the case, and a considerable amount of money was collected for the widows and orphans, and handed over to the merchant who was principally concerned in the fishery. One of the widows lived beside a minister to whom she came and complained about the way in which the money was dealt with. The people knew the amount which had been collected, and her share was £6 odds. The minister wrote to the merchant whose boats had been lost, saying that the widow was dying for want, and asking whether he would send her her share of the money that had been collected I believe the answer he got back from the merchant was, 'The first time you come near this, come in and I shall show you the £6 odds marked to her late husband's credit.' Is it for that purpose that charity is given in the south?
7582. Do you think that was a misappropriation the money, or was it not a legal right of the merchant that he should have his debt paid?-That, I suppose would depend upon the purpose for which the subscription was made. The money was collected by the benevolent in the south for the purpose of aiding the widows and children of the men who had been lost, and not to be paid in liquidation of the merchant's account due by the dead husband.
7583. That might raise a nice legal question?-It might; but I want this to go out to the world, so that the eyes of the people in the south may be opened to how their charity is applied: I can give more cases the same kind.
7584. That was not a case where the money came from the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society?-No; it was a private subscription. I knew another case where several boats were lost, and where very great sympathy, as in the first case, was excited, and a considerable sum of money was collected. As it happens, the money fell into the hands of the merchant who had owned the boats. It was distributed according to the judgment of the merchant and of the clergyman, but the clergyman was never consulted about the distribution or allocation of a single penny, and, so far as he was ever able to find out., it was kept in the shop. That is case which I know about, because I was the clergyman.
7585. How long ago was that?-I have noted it being in 1849. My own contribution to the fund was one guinea; and I ask, is it for this that the benevolent are to give their contributions for Shetland?
7586. Perhaps the benevolent might be of opinion that the fairest way of doing would be to pay the debts of the deceased, if the widows and children were liable for them?-I am not speaking of the legality of the thing, or how the case might stand in law, but I am speaking of the purpose for which I gave my contribution of one guinea; and I know that I would not have given one farthing for such a purpose as that money was applied to.
7587. A subscription of that kind might be regarded as an alimentary debt, not attachable by creditors?-That is my opinion. Another case happened, in which a contribution was made in favour of a very old man, to whose house an accident had happened. £3, 10s. was contributed for that man, to which I gave 10s.; and I was always hearing that that sum had not been applied in the way in which I at least had intended that it should be; but in case they might have been telling me what was not true, I went to the man in order to be sure that anything I might state here was quite correct.
7588. How long was that after the subscription had been collected?-It is perhaps two or three years since it was collected, but it is only a week ago since I went to the man.
7589. Did you go to him with a view to this inquiry?-It was after I got the notice that the meetings were to be held that I went to him. I went in to the man and said, 'John, did you ever get any of that money?'-He stood up and said, 'I went and said that I was starving and had nothing to eat, and I got one lispund of meal and two ounces of tea, and that is all the reckoning I ever got for it.'
7590. Who collected the money in that case?-My money was paid to the merchant at Hillswick.
[Page 185]
7591. Do you mean Mr. Anderson?-It was given over to that establishment, I know. I said, 'Is that all you have got, John?' 'Yes.' 'And where did the money go?' 'The money went to the credit of my son-in-law, Andrew Thomason.'
7592. Was Andrew Thomason supporting the old man at that time?-The old man is on the Parochial Board now; but Thomason himself had been in the utmost misery for at least a couple of years.
7593. Did you say anything to the son-in-law about that?-He was the first person I met when I went to see the old man; and when I met him, I said, 'What was done with the £3, 10s.?' or whatever was the amount. He said he could not say. I said, 'Did John get the money?' He replied, 'Oh, yes; surely he did.' I said, 'Will you swear that?' and he said, 'Oh, swearing is a different thing.' I then told him I must see John; but he said, 'You cannot see him; he is in such a state without clothes that he is not fit to be seen,' and he ran off to John; but I was as able to run as he was, and I was in and had a hold of John's hand before the son-in-law could get a hold of him. It was the wife of that man Thomason who, as I mentioned, seized me by the arm, and said, 'Oh, sir, will that give offence to the merchant.'
7594. Where do these persons live?-At Hillswick.
7595. Is the old man able to come here to be examined?-He is 85 years of age, and I don't believe he would be able.
7596. Is there anything else you wish to say?-I have noted a case in connection with the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society which I may be allowed to give. A man here had a boat which was either wrecked or broken, or so destroyed as to be useless. He had paid into the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society for three years, and he applied to the agent here to get his proportion of what was to be given for the boat. The man's statement to me was, that for a while he asked whether he had anything to get from the Society, either to procure a new boat or to repair the old one. He was told that he had 30s. to get; but the merchant, who was also the agent, said to him, 'I have put it to the credit of your account.' I want to make that statement in order that it may go forth to the world whether the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society choose to allow their payments to go in liquidation of such debts. That may be the case, but I hold a strong opinion that the Society meant to do no such thing.
7597. It has been explained that such a payment of the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society has been put to the man's account, but that it was only done in a case where the account was due for the boat which had been lost. Is it not quite a natural thing that the merchant, in the case that is supposed, might very fairly put the money to the account of the boat which had been lost, and then supply it new boat upon credit in the same way as he had supplied the old one?-But the man has no boat. What I mean by giving this evidence is, in order that the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society may understand how the money which they pay is applied by their agents here. If they think it is it right appropriation of the money, then, of course, I have no fault to find with it.
7598. Do you know whether there is any rule of the Society prohibiting such a use of the money?-I don't know; but if it was a right transaction, then it is quite right that it should be known.
7599. Did you hear the evidence given by Mr. Greig this morning?-I did.
7600. He said something about marking the horns of cattle for a debt: are you acquainted with the existence of such it practice?-I am. I have seen the cattle driven down to a place in my own neighbourhood, and kept there for a night and marked.
7601. Do you think there is any objection to that practice? Is there any reason why a man should not secure his debt by taking possession of the cattle of his debtor?-I hold that there ought to be no such seizure, and no such clandestine way of securing a man's debt. There are processes of law open to a man for securing his debt, if he chooses to avail himself of them.
7602. But the thing is done with the consent of the debtor?-That may be said, but my opinion is, that the debtor is not in a position to refuse; and in cases where it is done, it is done not only for the purpose of securing the man himself, but to keep the cattle from falling into the hands of another man to whom a debt is due.
7603. Are you speaking of cases which you know?-Yes. Suppose I have cattle, and I am due you an account, and you give me provisions at your shop, perhaps another man, to whom I am also in debt, won't be so liberal, and I will tell you to come and mark my cattle and let the other man whistle. That is the way in which it is done. Now, such a practice is most immoral in its effects.
7604. In what way?-Because this man cheats the other one. I should have made a fair failure, and then both men would have got a share of the balance I could pay.
7605. Do you know whether the price credited to the debtor in such a case is generally a fair price?-I have no means of knowing that.
7606. Is the price ascertained by a public sale?-It may be in some cases, but I know in many cases it is not.
7607. Do you think that, for the introduction of ready-money system, a multiplication of banks would be necessary?-I don't think it.
7608. Does not the fact that banks only exist in Lerwick act as a bar to the introduction of such a system?-No; I think that difficulty could easily be met. For instance, the Union Bank at Lerwick had their principal institution at the top of the town; but when opposition came, they opened small shop in the principal street in Lerwick, and they have now two offices there, a small one and a large one. Now, if the credit system were put an end to, for the sake of both parties, both merchants and people, there would soon be a small bank opened at Hillswick, if it should be nowhere else.
7609. How do people do with regard to banking just now?-The banking is very easily conducted, so far as I know, because the people have little money in their hands.
7610. Don't you know that many fishermen have large accounts in the bank in Lerwick already?-I know that some of the fishermen have a little there; but I know that the large accounts are not in the banks. I know from their statements where they get 5 per cent. for their money, and that is not from the bank.
7611. Where do they get that?-I won't mention any particular place, but they get it from the merchants in Shetland.
7612. Are there many men who are in a position have accounts of that kind with the merchants?-Several of them of the better class have told me about that themselves.
7613. Are these the one-fourth or one-third of the whole whom you mentioned, or a part of them?-They don't make one-fourth of the whole. The parties who could have such accounts would not perhaps come to one-sixth of the whole. Of course, I am speaking generally when I give that proportion.
7614. Do you mean that it is only one-sixth of the one-third who are well-doing, that have such accounts?-I should say it would not be more than one-sixth of the one-third who had them.
7615. Are there many public-houses in your parish?-No; properly speaking, there are no public-houses at all. There are shops where spirits are sold, but there is no public-house. At Hillswick, for instance, there is a shop with a back-shop to which the men go round and get whisky.
7616. But not to be consumed on the premises?-I never was there; but I understand the men do drink in that back place. I know that from their own statements to me.
7617. Does each merchant who keeps a shop and cures fish, have a grocer's licence?-No; I think there are licences in North Roe and Ollaberry as well as here. I may give a statement with regard to whisky [Page 186] since it has been mentioned. I hold in my hand the account of a fisherman for goods supplied to him at the shop; and I find that, during the six months over which it extends, the value of the whisky supplied was 14s. 10d. The way in which it came into my hands was this: A gentleman in the south was responsible for the account, and when it was sent to him, he was so horrified about it that he sent it from Edinburgh to me to inquire into, and I saw the people.
7618. How long was that since?-I think it is about three years ago. I sent the account to a merchant in the south to analyze it, so that I might report to the gentleman. I got back an analysis of it, with this written upon it: 'This account cannot be made payable in any court of law;' and the grounds for that opinion were stated to be, that there had been nothing weighed and nothing measured in the account, and they held that no account could be made payable in law that was neither measured nor weighed.
7619. Have you a copy of that account?-No; but I can give the
name of the party in Edinburgh who got it. What I mention it for,
is to show that there was 14s. 10d. charged for
7620. But that was the explanation of a third party who had no concern with the account?-Yes. When I sent the document to the gentleman in Edinburgh, he said he would pay that amount, but he would pay no more; and after that he sent me £5 a-year, from which I make payments to the man every month.
7621. In this account there is £1, 14s. 10d. and £1, 14s. 2d. in cash which you say was also spent in whisky?-I was only told about that by a party who said he knew about the same thing having been done. In this account there is 2s. 6d. entered for sweeties, verifying what was said in some of the evidence, that sweeties were given to make up the balance. With regard to whisky, I may explain that I had some whisky tested by a qualified party, which I believe was sold in the shops at 9d. per gill. The profit upon that, on being tested, was found to be 55 per cent. I also had tea sent and tested, for which the people had paid 3s. per pound, and the proper judge, to whom I sent it, sent me word that it was exactly 2s. tea, there being 50 per cent. of profit charged upon it.
7622. Who tested the tea?-A tea merchant in Aberdeen.
7623. Who tested the whisky?-A spirit-dealer also in Aberdeen. I sent these articles to be tested in order to show the enormous prices which are charged by these merchants. I have no interest in the matter myself, except that my poor parishioners should not pay more than they ought to pay, and also that an end might be put to a system which is injurious both to merchants and people.
7624. What remedy would you propose for the existing state of matters, and for the evils which are alleged to exist?-My remedy would be to declare the present truck system to be penal.
7625. What would you desire to be penal?-The truck system.
7626. But the truck system, properly so called, is penal; and the question in this inquiry is, whether other things are to be included within the operation of the Acts which apply to the truck system?-Well, I mean that this system of carrying on business in Shetland should be declared to be penal.
7627. Do you mean that you would make it penal to give long credit for shop goods?-I would make it penal to give any credit at all, and I would admit either party to give evidence against the other party for infringement of that statute, and would be to make all debts so incurred irrecoverable by any process of law. These three things are what I think would form a remedy for the present state of matters. At the same time, I am just as convinced that the merchant ought to live, and must live, and have a reasonable profit, as I am that the people should not pay more for their articles than they are worth.
Hillswick, Northmavine, January 12, 1872, JAMES BRUCE, examined.
7628. You are the schoolmaster of this parish, and inspector of poor?-I am.
7629. How long have you been inspector of poor?-For twenty-two years.
7630. I understand the number of paupers in this parish is fifty-three?-Yes; exclusive of dependants. I now exhibit an abstract of the accounts for all the time I have been in the office of inspector, which I keep for any own satisfaction and the satisfaction the Board.
7631. Do you think the amount of pauperism in the parish has diminished or increased in your experience?-I think it has kept very much about the same some years back.
7632. Do you think that pauperism is increased or affected in any way by habits arising from the system of protracted credit which exists in the parish, or have you formed any opinion at all upon the subject?-I have formed no opinion upon that, but I know that the Poor-Law has acted very injuriously upon the parish by increasing the expenses.
7633. That is to say, it has acted injuriously as regards those who pay the assessment, whatever it may have done with regard to the condition of the paupers themselves?-Yes. For a long time after the passing of the Act, we kept on the old system of quartering and paying the paupers through the session fund, and so on, and the heritors generally contributed a certain amount yearly to meet any balance due.
7634. I presume the payments made to the paupers are made in money?-Yes; all in money, except clothing, which is taken round to them.
7635. How long has that system prevailed?-Since the Poor-Law came into operation in the parish.
7636. Since 1845?-Not since 1845; nor for several years afterward. The legal assessment, I think, came on in 1861.
7637. You say that all clothing to the paupers is furnished by the inspector?-Yes; furnished by myself.
7638. Where is it purchased?-At any of the shops in the district, generally where the paupers live. Anything that is required for paupers in North Roe I generally purchase from Mr. Greig.
7639. In this district where is it purchased?-Generally at Hillswick, from Mr. Anderson.
7640. Is there any other place except these two shops where it is purchased?-Yes; at Ollaberry and Lochend from Mr. Laurenson.
7641. You purchase it yourself and deliver it to the paupers?- Yes.
7642. When their allowances are due in money, are they paid in money?-Yes; they call up for it-all those who are round me. At North Roe I send a cheque to Mr. Greig previous to the time for the amount to be distributed.
7643. If a pauper is unable to come here, how is his allowance conveyed to him?-They generally send their tickets, and I send the money by any person who can convey it. It is paid on tickets.
7644. What kind of ticket?-It is just an account of the allowances given to the paupers, and it is authorized by the Board of Supervision. It is the receipt for the money. The pauper keeps the ticket in his own possession, and whenever I get the ticket I pay the money, and mark it on the back. The pauper comes himself, if able and if not he sends the ticket.
7645. Was the allowance never paid by means of orders for meal? -Previous to the legal assessment [Page 187] coming into operation in the parish in 1861, it was sometimes paid in that way, and sometimes in cash.
7646. Has it ever been paid by an order for meal or food since then?-Not to my recollection, except it may be in the case of the applicants for casual relief, or applicants coming to me seeking relief before the meeting of the Board. In that case, sometimes, but not often, I would give an order for a little meal. I generally do that when I have not sufficient confidence in the economy of the party, and when I think the allowance may be put to some other use than the purchase of meal or necessaries.
7647. Has it never been paid to paupers regularly on the roll by means of an order upon the shop?-No; not since the Act came into operation in the parish.
7648. Are you quite sure of that?-I think I am perfectly sure, so far as my recollection goes.
7649. Have any of the paupers on the roll ever asked you to give them a line or an order on the shop for meal or other requirements?-No; not to my recollection. They always get their cash.
7650. Have you ever had occasion to transact business with paupers, or to make payment of their allowances at the shop at Hillswick, or at any of the shops in the neighbourhood?-No; I don't practise that at all.
7651. Has it ever been done?- Very seldom, I think.
7652. But it may have been done?-At the last month's pay there were two poor women living about five miles from this, who, I knew, could not come themselves, and I was doubtful that they might not get a person to come for them; therefore I sent word to them to send their ticket to Mr. Anderson and get the money. That was only done on one occasion.
7653. That is the only occasion within your recollection?-Yes. Mr. Anderson generally draws the money for me from the bank; and when I run out of change, I send down the pauper to him with a note for money; but that does not often happen. It is simply when I am out of change.
7654. Mr. Anderson merely acts as your banker?-Yes.
7655. He draws the money as the chairman of the Board?-Yes; and it is handy for me, because I get the small change from him that I require.
7656. How often does it happen in the course of a year that you give an order of that sort?-I could not say how often it happens. I only remember one other instance of it just now, besides the one I have referred to. The person called here, and I did not have the change; and as the person was going to Hillswick, I gave a note on Mr. Anderson to give the money. But it is not at all a common practice.
[The sitting was here adjourned till the evening.]
Hillswick, Northmavine, January 12, 1872, ARTHUR HARRISON, examined.
7657. You are a merchant at Hillswick?-Yes, at Urrafirth.
7658. You were for some years in the employment of Mr. Anderson at Hillswick?-Yes.
7659. And you are now in business on your own account at Urrafirth?-Yes.
7660. Do you employ any fishermen?-No.
7661. Are you in business in the drapery and provision line?-No; I only deal in groceries.
7662. Do you not keep any soft goods at all?-Yes; I have a few pieces of cotton.
7663. You are just beginning business?-Yes.
7664. Had you any difficulty in getting shop accommodation?- Yes, a little.
7665. In what way? Was it not easy to find a shop in this parish?-No; it was not easy.
7666. How so?-The heritor did not wish to give it to me; and I had a lease saying that I was not to commence business.
7667. You had a lease of what?-Of a bit of ground which I held.
7668. Was it a lease of the premises you now possess?-Yes.
7669. When did you take that lease?-Fourteen years ago.
7670. You have lived there for fourteen years, and had a piece of ground?-Yes.
7671. And the lease prohibited you from carrying on any shop business?-Yes; but the heritor allowed me to cure fish, and to keep a little to supply the people whom I employed.
7672. In what way did you employ them?-I employed them, and paid them every Saturday night.
7673. In what business?-In curing fish-drying Faroe cod. I don't buy the cod; I cure it for Mr. Adie.
7674. Is that your principal occupation?-Yes.
7675. And the landlord agreed to allow you to keep small shop for supplying provisions to these men?-Yes.
7676. Is that all you are doing now?-Yes.
7677. Did you receive a letter from the Busta trustees, forbidding you to carry on a shop business there, or stating that you could not be allowed to hold the premises for the purpose of doing so?-No, I received no letter; but in my lease it is stated that I am not to carry on anything but the curing business.
7678. But you had that fourteen years ago?-Yes.
7679. Have you had any communication with the Busta trustees, or with any one of them, on the subject since you took your lease?- Yes.
7680. With whom?-With Mr. Gifford and Mr. Hay.
7681. Was that communication in writing?-No; it was personally with them at Busta.
7682. Did you apply to them for leave to carry on a more extensive business in the way of a shop?-No; I did not apply for anything more than what I got.
7683. What was it you went to see them about?-I went to ask for liberty to cure fish, and keep a small store.
7684. When did you do so?-About November 1869.
7685. Was that shortly after you left Mr. Anderson's employment?-No; it was before.
7686. Did they grant you that permission?-Yes; latterly it was granted.
7687. But it was not granted to you at first?-No.
7688. For what reason?-I don't know for what reason.
7689. Did they not assign a reason for not granting you that permission?-Yes. I think they said it was too near Hillswick.
7690. What was the meaning of that?-That the starting of another business there might reduce the value of Hillswick, and therefore it would not pay such a rent.
7691. Did you understand from that, that in granting Mr. Anderson a lease of the premises at Hillswick, they had become bound not to allow any other shops to be opened in the district?-No; they did not say anything like that.
7692. Was it with Mr. Gifford this conversation took place?-Yes.
7693. Was it implied that they had some reason for not interfering with Mr. Anderson's business?-Yes; at least the reason he gave was not so much that it would interfere with Mr. Anderson's business, as that it would bring down the rent of Hillswick, and would not advance the property anything.
7694. Do you mean that if you were to open a shop there, the necessary result would be that Mr. Anderson would require to have his rent reduced?-Yes; that is likely to have been what was meant.
7695. How long after that was it when you got permission to open your present shop?-I don't know exactly how long it was. Perhaps it may have been a month or two after it was spoken of first. I then got [Page 188] liberty to cure the fish and keep provisions for the men I employed; that was all.
7696. But only for the men you employed?-That was all the liberty I got.
7697. Are you not allowed to sell to anybody except the people you employ?-I never asked any more liberty than that.
7698. When you first went to ask for that permission, had you made arrangements to cure fish for Mr. Adie?-No.
7699. Had you made the arrangement by the second time you went?-Yes.
7700. Did you say to Mr. Gifford, when you went the second time, that you had made such an arrangement?-Yes; I told him I had got the offer of fish to cure.
7701. Was he more ready to grant your application on that occasion?-Yes. He said I could take the work.
7702. Had you spoken to Mr. Anderson about the matter in the interval?-I don't remember; perhaps I might.
7703. You were trying to set up your business at that time?-Yes.
7704. Don't you remember whether you applied to Mr. Anderson with regard to that matter at all?-Yes. I believe I told him then what had passed between me and Mr. Gifford at first.
7705. Did Mr. Anderson then agree to withdraw any objection he might have to it?-He did not say anything about that.
7706. In what way did you come to make an arrangement with Mr. Adie?-He had been told that I intended to commence curing fish, and he offered me some to cure.
7707. Was it through Mr. Anderson that that was done?-I don't know.
7708. Did the offer from Mr. Adie come to you through Mr. Anderson?-No. He wrote me directly and I replied accepting his offer, and then I went and saw him at Voe.
7709. Do you buy the fish from Mr. Adie's boatmen?-No; I buy no fish.
7710. They are delivered to you by Mr. Adie's boatmen on his account, and you cure them for Mr. Adie, employing your own people and receiving a contract price for the curing?-Yes.
7711. How long had you been in Mr. Anderson's service before that time?-Upwards of twenty years.
7712. All the time as a shopman?-Not all the time, but perhaps for eighteen years as a shopman.
7713. Why did you leave his employment?-There was some difference between us, and we thought it best to part.
7714. Was there a quarrel about money matters, or anything of that kind?-No; there was no great quarrel.
7715. After you were refused that permission in the first instance by the Busta trustees, did Mr. Anderson agree in any way not to object to you having the shop, provided your sales were limited to the men whom you employed yourself?-No; Mr. Anderson never objected to me, nor in my presence; I did not hear him objecting.
7716. Did you know of him objecting?-I could not say that I knew of it.
7717. Did you think he was objecting?-Yes.
7718. What made you think that: was it what Mr. Gifford said?-I think it was.
7719. Do you think Mr. Anderson would have less objection to it when he knew it was Mr. Adie who was concerned in the business?-I took no thought of that.
7720. Do you know that Mr. Adie had interfered on your behalf with Mr. Gifford?-Not to my knowledge.
7721. Did you ask him to do so?-No.
7722. Have you any reason to suppose that he interfered on your behalf with Mr. Anderson?-Yes. He wrote to Mr. Anderson about me, inquiring why had left, and asking for testimonials.
7723. Was that before he wrote to you making the offer?-It was when I was asking goods from him. I don't remember exactly whether it was before or after.
7724. Do you sell the goods for Mr. Adie, or do you sell them on your own account?-I sell them on my own account.
7725. Do you get them from Mr. Adie at wholesale prices?-Yes.
7726. At least you get them from him at a lower rate than that at which you sell them?-Yes.
7727. Was it before or after you got leave from the Busta people to open the shop that Mr. Adie wrote to Mr. Anderson?-I cannot say exactly when it was, but it was before I got the goods from Mr. Adie.
7728. Was it before you had got permission to open the shop that you applied to Mr. Adie for the goods?-No; I had got permission before I applied for the goods.
7729. Then it was after you had got permission open the shop that Mr. Adie wrote to Mr. Anderson?-Very likely it was but I don't know. I did not know about him having written until some time afterwards, when he told me.
7730. When you arranged with Mr. Adie about the fish-curing, was anything said about you having a shop from which to supply the people with goods?-No.
7731. Are you sure of that?-Yes. I wrote to him, and I never said anything about that.
7732. But you went to see him after that?-Yes; it was only then I spoke about the goods.
7733. Was it on your way home from Voe that you called at Busta and saw Mr. Gifford about the shop the second time?-No; it was before I went to Voe.
7734. Was it on your way to Voe?-I don't remember. Perhaps it may have been on a different day altogether.
7735. But it was before you went to Voe, and after you had got the letter from Mr. Adie?-Yes.
7736. You don't know from Mr. Adie or Mr. Anderson whether there had been any letters between them about you until after you were at Voe that time?-I don't know.
7737. Do you think there was any such letter?-I don't know of any, but there may have been.
7738. How did you know of the other letter first: did you see it?- No.
7739. Who told you of it?-Mr, Adie.
7740. Was that at another time when you called upon him?-No; it was the first time-the time when I went to him and asked for goods. He told me then that he had written to Mr. Anderson and got his reply.
7741. That is not what you told me before: did you not say before, that you thought it was after you had asked for the goods that Mr. Adie wrote to Mr. Anderson?-It was after I had agreed for the fish.
7742. Then the first time you saw Mr. Adie was at Voe before you opened the shop, and when you went to ask for goods?-Yes.
7743. And when you were at Voe at that time Mr. Adie told you he had written to Mr. Anderson, and had received a reply from him containing a certificate?-Yes.
7744. Did Mr. Adie tell you at the same time that he had seen Mr. Gifford?-I cannot say.
7745. What department did you manage in Mr. Anderson's shop?-I was fish-curer and factor for the summer time at Stenness.
7746. Do you know William Inkster?-Yes.
7747. Do you remember three or four years ago when he left Mr. Adie and came to fish to Mr Anderson?-Yes.
7748. Did you know that he did that because Mr. Adie had refused him supplies on account of a debt?-No; I did not know that.
7749. Did you know that he was in Mr. Adie's debt at that time?- Yes.
7750. Do you know that Mr. Anderson took over the debt?-Yes.
7751. Is it a common thing here for a fish-merchant to take over the debt of a fisherman who leaves another employer and comes to him?-Yes.
[Page 189]
7752. Have you heard of that frequently among the fishermen?- Yes. It has been the practice so long as I can remember, except some time after Mr. Anderson came here, when it was not done. Then, a fisherman who had got an advance from one merchant, would go to another and leave his balance unpaid, and therefore the old system was renewed again.
7753. Do you know the nature of the arrangement which was made when the system was renewed?-I do not.
7754. Do you know what the arrangement is?-I never saw the arrangement.
7755. I don't suppose it was in writing?-I could not say.
7756. Do you know what the practice generally is now in such cases?-Yes. The merchant generally pays the man's balance before giving him anything.
7757. That is to say, the new employer pays the man's balance before agreeing with him to fish for him for the season?-Yes.
7758. Is the whole balance paid, or only a part of it?-That is just as they can arrange.
7759. Is there a rule that a man is not to be taken by new employer without his balance being paid to the old one?-I think that is generally understood now.
7760. Do you know over what district that arrangement prevails? Do you know what fish-merchants do that?-I think it extends no further than to the men fishing at Stenness, and from Voe to Hillswick.
7761. Does that include Messrs. Adie, Mr. Anderson, and Mr. Inkster?-Yes.
7762. Were you aware that that was always done when you were in Mr. Anderson's employment?-No, it was not always done, but it was practised before I came into Mr. Anderson's employment at all.
7763. But when you were in Mr. Anderson's employment, was it not always done?-No, not always.
7764. You mean that the arrangement ceased for a while, and was renewed?-Yes.
7765. How long is it since it was renewed?-I cannot tell.
7766. Was it before William Inkster came to Mr. Anderson?- Yes, some time before that.
7767. Did you know that it was done in other cases besides Inkster's?-Yes.
7768. Was it done in many cases?-I don't remember of many.
7769. Was it commonly known among the fishermen that there was such a rule?-Yes, latterly, I believe, it was generally known.
Hillswick, Northmavine, January 12, 1872, JOHN ANDERSON (recalled).
7770. You showed me some of your books yesterday, in which I saw the name of William Inkster, Stenness and you explained to me that a large sum of money, upwards of £40, which stood against him in your books when he began to fish at the beginning of last year, was the continuation of a balance that had been against him for some years previously: is that so?-Yes. I would rather not mention names, unless you think it necessary, because I make it a rule with my shopmen that they are never to mention any man's balance, whether it is due by him or not, on pain of being turned off.
7771. You told me that this large balance consisted partly of an account which Inkster had incurred to Mr. Adie at Voe, and which you had taken over when the man began to fish for you?-Yes.
7772. What was the amount of the original debt which you took over from Mr. Adie?-I think it came to about £20.
7773. Inkster left Mr. Adie, I understand, in consequence of his supplies being stopped?-I don't know the reason exactly.
7774. But he came to fish for you?-Yes.
7775. How did it happen that you undertook his debt at the end of the first season he fished for you?-It was in consequence of an agreement that exists between Mr. Adie, Mr. Inkster of Brae, and me, with reference to each other's fishermen.
7776. What is the nature of that agreement?-It was entered into just to protect ourselves from those men who want to escape from paying their debts. I think we're bound to each other not to take the men without making some arrangement to see that their debts shall be paid.
7777. Do you undertake to pay the whole debt, or only a part of it, according to circumstances?-It is the whole debt.
7778. Was this a verbal arrangement?-No.
7779. Was it reduced to writing?-Yes.
7780. Have you got it?-I have not. I rather think I got a copy sent to me at one time but I think Mr. Adie has the extended agreement.
7781. Have you got a copy of it now?-I have not.
7782. Have you lost it?-No. It is very likely among my papers, but I cannot say. It is a long time since I came across it.
7783. Has this arrangement been of long standing? Do you remember the date of it?-I cannot exactly say the date. I think it must be from five to nine years since it was entered into, but I cannot speak accurately as to the date.
7784. Has the arrangement been acted upon?-Yes.
7785. When a fisherman leaves one master, and goes to another of those three, the debt due to the former master is generally paid by the new one?-Yes.
7786. You showed me in your invoice book an entry of the last purchase of oatmeal you had made from Messrs. Glenny, Aberdeen, for the purposes of your business, as follows:-'1871 June 19. 50 sacks oatmeal, sacks 50s., £100'?-Yes. The 50s. is the price of the sacks, to be returned or kept.
7787. A sack of oatmeal consists of 280 lbs.?-Yes.
7788. What is the selling price of a lispund?-5s. 4d.
7789. Has that been the price for some time?-It has been the price during the last season.
7790. You also showed me an invoice of flour from Messrs. J. & J. Tod, Dalkeith:-'1871. October 2. 2 sacks extra superfine flour, at 44s., £4, 8s.;' and another invoice, containing these entries:- 'October 19. 2 sacks No. 2 flour, at 45s., £4, 10s., 1 sack oatmeal, £2'?-Yes. The sacks in these invoices are charged separately.
7791. What is the selling price of the flour?-6s. 6d. per lispund. Flour is also sold by the lispund here.
7792. Both the flour and the oatmeal in the invoice of October 19 were intended for the purposes of your business?-Yes. Besides the invoice price, there are freight and charges to be taken into account. The freight and landing would be 2s. per sack for the oatmeal. That is the steamer's freight to Lerwick, and then it is brought by a small packet which comes round by Roenesshill when she has anything like a cargo. The small packet charges 1s. 6d. per sack; it is double freight coming round the hill; so that probably the freight and landing charges will be 3s. 6d. per sack.
7793. Are these all the charges?-I think so. There would also be insurance charged against me; it is at my risk when shipped. It was not insured in this case, but still that ought to be reckoned, because I ran the risk. I don't know the rate of insurance. I have paid as high as 35s. per cent. of insurance from Leith, but I have got it much cheaper insured in Glasgow-I think 7s. 6d. per cent.
7794. Is that for goods in general, or for any particular kind of goods?-Just for general goods.
7795. You heard the evidence that was given this morning?-Yes.
7796. Is there any statement you have heard from any of the witnesses which you wish to correct, or anything you wish to say in addition to what you said yesterday?-Yes. I think I would be inclined to differ from [Page 190] the description which Mr. Sutherland gave of the people. My experience of them has been very different.
7797. You would be disposed to give the Shetland people a better character than he gave them?-I think so. I think they can bear favourable comparison with any people of the same class that I have come across in other parts of the world.
7798. In respect of frugality?-Yes.
7799. And foresight?-Yes; and activity in business.
7800. And for their moral virtues?-Yes.
7801. Is it not the case that a considerable part of the year is spent in comparative idleness by the Shetland fishermen?-I believe it is, but that perhaps does not arise from any unwillingness on their part to work.
7802. From what does it arise?-From want of employment.
7803. Have they not their land?-They have their land, but, as I observed before, there is a bar to improvement there.
7804. Would it not be possible to introduce a more extensive system of winter fishing than that which exists now?-I don't think it.
7805. It seems a little peculiar, does it not, that the summer fishing should be prosecuted in the big boats, and that only the small boats should be sent out in winter?-They prosecute the fishing in the big boats in winter too, when the weather permits.
7806. But they don't go so far to sea in winter as in summer?-No; they don't go so far.
7807. I understood it was principally the small boats that went out in winter?-That is true, but on several occasions they employ the big boats too. But the smaller boats, when the weather permits, are much handier and lighter to manage.
7808. Are they safer?-They are equally safe when the weather permits.
7809. But would they not be able to go greater distances to sea with the big boats?-It would not matter much what size of boat they had if they were caught at sea by a gale.
7810. Is it not the case that on the east coast of Scotland the fishing is prosecuted for nine or ten months in the year; and that the fishermen there, who are a very comfortable class, have no occupation except that of fishermen? I am not asking you at present about any separation between fishing and agriculture, but don't you think it would be possible to prosecute the fishing in Shetland to the same extent, and for the same length of time, as it is prosecuted on the east coast of Scotland?-I don't think it.
7811. Is that owing to the weather?-It is owing to the weather, and the great exposure to the Atlantic, and the great swell that comes in from it. A very light puff of wind raises a tremendous sea in winter, that scarcely any boat could live in.
7812. In some parts of Shetland, where there is not so much exposure, is not the winter fishing prosecuted to some extent?- Yes.
7813. And to a greater extent than it is here?-Yes; that is done about Yell Sound, for instance. They are protected there on almost all sides.
7814. Here you are exposed to westerly gales which do not affect the fishermen on the east coast?-That is so.
7815. Is that the principal reason why the fishing is not prosecuted here so much in winter?-That is partly the reason.
7816. Is there any other reason why the winter fishing does not succeed here?-Yes. Every experienced fisherman knows that it is only at certain seasons of the year that the ling come over the ground in any quantities; and that is, I think, from, say the month of April or May to September. That has been the case for generations.
7817. Ling is your staple fish here, upon which the success of the fishing depends?-Yes; altogether.
7818. Would it not be worth while to prosecute the fishing in winter for the purpose of taking cod and haddock and other fish?-I don't think it.
7819. Would it not pay without the ling?-No; the other fish would not be got in sufficient quantities.
7820. Would they not be got in the same quantities, as on the east coast of Scotland?-No. The ground here for one thing is not so extensive. On the east coast of Scotland, you can have a range of perhaps, ten or twenty or thirty miles from every port, which you have not got here.
7821. How have you not got that range here?-The island is not so big altogether; and there are only certain tracks of ground that the men can fish on.
7822. It is on certain banks only that the fish caught?-Yes.
7823. And the banks here are not so extensive as on the east coast?-They are not.
7824. Has any attempt ever been made to introduce a more extensive winter fishing?-I don't think there is a more active class of men anywhere than there is to the westward here. They have small holdings, but they are constantly prepared to go off to sea when the weather offers, and they do prosecute the fishing often.
7825. Have you anything further to state?-With regard to the debts of the men, I may say that in 1864 I gave them to understand that unless those who were in debt reduced their balances in the former year, I could not help them again with their rent; and, except in exceptional cases, I have invariably acted upon that rule since.
7826. You mean that when they came to you at rent time for a cash payment in order to help them to pay their rents, you could not help them with that unless their former balance was reduced?- Quite so.
7827. You mentioned in a former part of your examination that a certain amount of cash had been paid at last settlement?-Yes.
7828. That would be in November?-Yes; in November and December.
7829. Did the whole of that pass to the fishermen, or was any rent included in it?-That was what I paid to the people when I was settling. There might be others besides fishermen, but I did not distinguish between them.
7830. Do any of the rents of the Busta estate pass through your hands?-No.
7831. But the rents to be paid to the factor would probably, where due by fishermen, be paid out of these payments by you?-I think so; but not necessarily in every case.
7832. Have you any arrangement with the factor about the rents of your fishermen?-None at all.
7833. That is quite an independent concern?-Quite.
7834. I think you have prepared some statement with regard to theamount of debts due by your fishermen during the last four or fiveyears?-Yes. I have prepared the following statement, showingthe number of men in debt, the total amount of their debts, and theaverage amount due by each, taking it as a whole:-No. of Men TotalYear. in debt. amount of Average.debt.1868 74 £1044 £14, 2s.1869 79 1017 131870 72 942 131871 64 782 12, 4s.
7835. That shows that eight men had wiped off their debt altogether between 1870 and 1871?-Yes. That will prove, I think, that they are not quite so black as they have been painted. They are improving a little. The largest balance was £49, 14s. 21/2d. in 1868, which was reduced to £41, 9s. 9d. in 1871.
7836. The amount of indebtedness at Ollaberry is not included in these figures?-No. The figures I have now given apply only to the Hillswick men, who number about 125.* Four of the indebted men have left since, and are not clear of debt. That would reduce the amount by about £50 in all of the years except the first.
* In a note subsequently received from Mr. Anderson, he says: 'I find, in going over my books, that instead of 125 men, as I believed fished for me last year, I have actually 147. These I find are made up by fee'd men, and several crews who cured and dried their own fish, and from whom I purchased their fish so dried at the end of the season.
[Page 191]
Hillswick, Northmavine, January 12, 1872, ARTHURSANDISON, examined.
7837. You are a shopman and bookkeeper in Mr. Anderson's establishment at Hillswick?-I am.
7838. You are in the course of making up, at my request, a return from ledger D and ledger V, which are books containing the ledger accounts of the individual fishermen employed at Hillswick?- Yes.
7839. Do both these books contain the accounts of the individual men?-Yes. Ledger D contains the accounts both of the crews and private accounts of the men; and ledger V contains some private accounts.
7840. In proceeding to make up the list, you are taking the names of the last fifty fishermen as they appear in the ledger, and you are inserting in the return the various particulars which have been furnished to you?-Yes.
7841. The return which you are preparing, and which you are to send me, will be correctly taken from Mr. Anderson's books?- Yes, so far as I am able to do it.
7842. Is there any other person here who wishes to be examined? (No answer.) Then I adjourn the sittings at this place until further notice.
Brae: Saturday, January 13, 1872.
MAGNUS JOHNSTON, examined.
7843. You keep a shop at Tofts, about a mile from Mossbank?- Yes; I think it is rather more than a mile from Mossbank.
7844. What do you deal in?-Tea, tobacco, sugar and I buy fish too.
7845. Do you cure them yourself?-Yes.
7846. How many boats have you fishing for you?-I have no boats of my own; I just buy a little fish in the winter time, and I cure the men's fish in Feideland in summer. I cure at the fishing-station for Andrew Tulloch, who was examined the other day.
7847. From what fishermen do you buy your fish?-I buy them from any man who comes along, and wants to sell fish to me.
7848. Is that in the winter time only, or in the summer as well?- In the winter only. I am a seaman myself, and I have followed the sea since I was a child, but I stayed at home this year; and in the summer season I cured Tulloch's fish, while the wife and the bairns and I have commenced to sell a little tea and sugar and tobacco, and to buy fish from the small fishing boats in winter.
7849. Is that the way which people hereabout usually take to start a shop business?-I think it is.
7850. Do you keep accounts with the men that you buy the fish from?-No.
7851. Do you pay for them in cash?-Yes; always in cash.
7852. And then they buy some provisions from you?-Yes; if they like.
7853. Are these paid for in cash too?-Yes.
7854. I suppose you find it very uphill work competing with the big shops?-I don't know. I am a kind of rough and ready sailor man, and I don't take much thought about that; it does not give me much concern.
7855. Do the men prefer to deal with the big shops in it general way?-I cannot say as to that.
7856. Do you drive a good business with any of the men besides those who sell their fish to you?-No; some of the neighbours may buy a few provisions from us, but not many. A woman may sell her eggs to us, and get provisions for them.
7857. Where do you get your tea?-From Bremner & Grant, Aberdeen.
7858. Do they send their traveller round the country soliciting orders?-Sometimes. He has not been round this winter, and I get my tea when I write for it.
7859. Do you keep pass-books for the business which you do with your customers?-Sometimes, but not many. I think my girl keeps a pass-book sometimes, but I am no scribe myself, and I cannot keep books.
7860. You never were a fisherman?-Not in the home fishing, but I have been at the Faroe fishing as master.
7861. When was that?-About four or five years ago.
7862. Whose vessel were you in?-The late Mr. Hoseason's. I have not been at Faroe since then.
7863. You went from Mossbank then?-Yes; I was one year in a schooner for Mr. Adie too.
7864. Had you the same arrangement then about the fish which exists now, that the men get one-half of the fish, for which they are paid the current price at the end of the season?-Yes.
7865. Did you at that time live where you are now?-Yes; and when I went to the Faroe fishing. Some time after I got married I lived in Northmaven, but now for nine years past at Martinmas I have lived at Tofts.
7866. When you went to the Faroe fishing, did you get your supplies from Pole, Hoseason, & Company, when you were employed by them?-No; I generally took my supplies in tea and sugar and other things from Braidwood & Fowler, Sandport Street, Leith. We are friendly yet, and they always send me some present at Christmas.
7867. Then you are rather better off than most of the men?-Yes; in some ways I am.
7868. At least you had sense to get your provisions where you pleased?-Yes; and I had something left by my friends, besides what I earned myself. When I was at the Faroe fishing, I did not think they got fair-play.
7869. Who did not get fair-play?-Not even myself, or any of the men. I knew the fish had been selling at a higher rate than the men got the benefit of; at least I was told so.
7870. Do you think the men were not to blame for that, by making a bargain which left them entirely at the discretion of the merchant? The merchant could fix any price he liked, could he not?-He could. But if I get the loan of a man's boat with which to go to the fishing, and if I engage for one-half of the fish, then, I think, it would only be fair-play to divide the fish in halves, and for the merchant to take one-half, and give me the other.
7871. But you said the men sometimes felt that the price which they got for their fish at the end of the season was lower than it ought to have been, and I was asking you whether you did not think the men had themselves to blame for that. They did not reserve any power to themselves about fixing the price, but left it entirely to the merchants?-Yes.
7872. Then your idea is, that they would have been wiser to have kept some power about that in their own hands?-Yes.
7873. How could they manage that?-They engaged for one-half at the Faroe fishing, and the owners of the vessels ought to have sold the fish conscientiously, and to have given the men the benefit of their half, after taking off curing and other expenses.
7874. But you say the men thought the owners did not always fix the price conscientiously?-I thought so myself.
7875. How would you manage it so that the men could make sure of getting a fair price at the end of the season?-I would let the men stand the chance of the markets so far as the fixing of the price is concerned.
[Page 192]
7876. But is not that the bargain that is made now, that they get the market price at the end of the season?-I believe it is, but it was not so then.
7877. What was the difference in the arrangement then?-I cannot say. They engaged for one-half of the fish at that time, but I know that sometimes they did not get the benefit of the market price.
7878. Do you think they get the benefit of the market price now?-I cannot say, for I have not been at Faroe for five years.
7879. At that time did most of the men who were sailing with you run accounts with the merchant for their outfit and supplies?- Yes.
7880. Had they generally a balance to get in cash settling time?- Yes.
7881. Did you know any men who were behind, and had a balance against them at the end of the year?-I cannot say whether there were any in that position.
7882. You were not in that position yourself?-Never.
7883. What was the reason why the men generally dealt with the merchants who employed them at the fishing?-Perhaps the men did not have money at the time with which to go and buy the articles from any other party, and the man who owned the vessel ready to supply them. That was the way in which it was done, so far as I know.
7884. I suppose some of them had been supplied with goods before they went away to the fishing?-I think so.
7885. And it was a common enough thing for an account to be standing against them when they settled?-I believe it was.
7886. Do you think any of them would have engaged with another merchant in preference for the fishing if they had not had that account?-I cannot say as to that.
7887. Was there any obligation on them to engage with the merchant who supplied them with their goods?-Not so far as I know.
7888. Except that they thought it fair to go and fish for him in order that he might have some security for his advances?-Of course.
7889. How long is it since you opened your shop?-About twenty-one or twenty-two months.
7890. On whose land is it?-The proprietor, Mr. Robert Hoseason, is in New Zealand.
7891. Is it under the management of Pole, Hoseason, & Co.?-No. Mr. Sievwright, writer in Lerwick, is the agent. Mr. John White and Mr. Cheyne, Edinburgh, are the agents, and they have Mr. Sievwright under them.
7892. Had you any difficulty in getting a place in which to open your business?-No; I had been living there before.
7893. But was any objection made to your opening the shop?-No; there could be none, because I have a lease of the place.
7894. For what length of time is your lease?-For ten years.
7895. Do you know whether there is a difficulty in getting premises for shops in other parts of the district?-I cannot say, because I never tried.
7896. What is the price of your meal just now?-The fact is, we have none.
7897. Do you not sell meal?-Yes, I sell it. My meal is 16d. a peck all through the year.
7898. Is that higher or lower than the price at the Mossbank shop?-I think it is 1d. below it.
7899. Is your meal of the same quality as the meal there?-I think so. I get my meal from Aberdeen.
7900. Is it better than the meal sold at Mossbank?-I could not say that.
7901. Do you get it from Bremner & Grant?-Yes, and sometimes I get it from Tulloch. I generally get it by the sack or boll; and if any person takes a sack or boll from me, I give it at what it cost me, adding something for freight.
7902. You sell it at 16d. per peck; how much is that per boll?- There are about 17 pecks to the boll, but you will not get a boll to weigh out 17 pecks. There should be 171/2 in it, but weighing out pecks and half pecks the boll will not weigh out so much as 17.
7903. Are most of the people about Mossbank employed by Pole, Hoseason, & Co. at the fishing?-Yes most of them.
7904. Is there anybody there who fishes for one else?-James Hay fishes for Mr. Adie, Voe. That is all I know.
7905. Does he go to Voe to fish?-No; he fishes at Feideland Station.
7906. With that exception, will all the people within two or three miles of Mossbank be fishing for Pole, Hoseason, & Co.?-Yes; I think most of them.
7907. Or within five miles?-I could not say for five miles; but I think most of them will.
7908. Do most of them deal at Pole, Hoseason, & Co.'s shop?-I believe they do.
7909. Very few of them come to you?-Occasionally they do, but not to any great extent.
7910. Do you think you would have a greater number of customers if you were employing boats yourself for the fishing?- I cannot say; perhaps I might.
7911. Have you not thought of turning your attention that way?- Not as yet.
7912. How is it that the men are at liberty to sell fish to you if they are engaged to Pole, Hoseason & Co.?-They are engaged in the summer time with the large boats, because the large boats belong to Pole, Hoseason, & Co.; but the small boats which they use in the winter time belong to the men themselves, and it is more convenient for the men living in the neighbourhood of my house to sell their fish to me than to Pole, Hoseason, & Co. It would be better for them to sell their fish to me 6d. per cwt. cheaper than to go to Mossbank with them. The boats are their own, and the men are not in debt to Pole, Hoseason, & Co., and therefore they can do with these fish as they please.
7913. Do you also buy fish from men who are in debt to Pole, Hoseason, & Co.?-I don't know whether they are in debt to them or not. I take fish from every one who brings them to me.
7914. Do you buy many fish during the winter season in that way?-Not a large quantity. Perhaps. I might have about 11/2 or 2 tons of dry fish in the spring; that would be about the amount of it.