8988. Did you sell the winter fishing for payment at the time, or did it go into the account too?-It was never put into the account at all; we just got what we required for it. It was ready payment; but it was very rarely that we got money for the winter fishing.
8989. Did you know at the time that the prices you [Page 218] were paid at the latter part of the season were lower than the market price of the fish?-We knew that but it was just the bargain.
8990. Was that the system with all the tenants in that time?-With every one.
8991. When did that system cease?-I think it ceased about a year after I came here about 1863.
8992. Why did you leave Whalsay?-There was new division of the land, and I did not consider that I was getting a good farm. I was personally acquainted with Mr. Budge, who was leaving the island then and coming to this property, and I came along with him.
Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, LAURENCE WILLIAMSON, examined.
8993. You are a merchant in this neighbourhood?-Yes; at Linkshouse, Mid Yell.
8994. Have you been long in business there?-Nearly eight years.
8995. On whose property are your premises?-The late Robert Nevin Spence's property.
8996. Are there many tenants on it?-There are a few, but I could not tell the number exactly.
8997. Are they engaged in fishing?-Some of them are.
8998. Are they at liberty to fish to any one they please?-Yes.
8999. You were engaged in the fish-curing business to a certain extent?-Yes. I do very little in it now.
9000. Your business has been considerably reduced?-Yes.
9001. Has that been since Mr. Sievwright wrote the letter which was produced by the last witness?-Yes. Mrs. Budge's tenants were the men that I had fishing to me and when they went away I could not fill up my boats.
9002. Had you made arrangements with any men for the fishing of last season when they were taken away?-Yes. It was rather too late when they let me know they were going.
9003. How do you mean that they were too late?-They commonly make up their boats' crews about Hallowmas or Martinmas, at the time of settlement, and one of the crews had agreed to fish for me for the rising season, not knowing then that they were to be taken away. Of course they had to leave me, because they knew, or at least they believed, they would be differently dealt with if they did not leave.
9004. Did you make any objection to them leaving after having struck a bargain with you?-Yes, I slightly objected to it; but, of course, I could not help it.
9005. In what way did you object?-The men who formed that boat's crew had signed a sort of written agreement that they were to fish for me in the rising year, on the same terms as they had agreed with me before. Sometimes they don't have a written agreement, only a verbal one, but on this occasion there was written agreement entered into.
9006. I suppose a verbal agreement is the usual way of arranging for the season's fishing?-Yes, generally.
9007. Did these men happen to have a written agreement?-Yes; we had a little bit form drawn up and agreed to.
9008. Had you any reason for having a written agreement at that time?-I was rather doubtful in my own mind that they would be leaving me, or rather that they would be forced to leave.
9009. Was that because there had been some talk about Mr. Thomas Williamson getting these fishermen?-The talk was not about Mr. Thomas Williamson at that time, but about Mr. Magnus Mouat. I think his name was mentioned when the talk commenced about the men leaving.
9010. But you did not insist in your objection to your agreement with the men being departed from?-No.
9011. Was that for fear of injuring the men?-Yes. Of course I saw that I could not legally hold them.
9012. Why? If they had agreed to fish for you, were they not bound to fulfil their bargain?-I thought I could not legally hold them, and I just let them go.
9013. Were you not afraid of them suffering for it if they fulfilled their bargain with you?-They must have suffered for it too.
9014. Did you make any representation on the subject to Mr. Sievwright?-No. The only communication I had was with the men themselves.
9015. How many men did you lose in that way?-Twelve.
9016. Were some of these men in your debt at the time?-Some of them were. They had a sort of running account.
9017. Have you any men fishing for you this year at all?-For the rising year I believe we will have two or three boats' crews.
9018. Had you any last year?-We had two. I and another man are in a sort of company, and we had two boats last year-one each.
9019. Did you find that the fact of Mrs. Budge's tenants leaving you and going across the water materially affected your business in the shop?-I cannot say that it injured it very much.
9020. But it would make some difference?-I don't think it made a great deal.
9021. Were not their accounts taken away from you?-There are a good many of them who deal with me still, but not to the same extent.
9022. From what quarter did you get your fishermen who engaged with you for the rising season?-From the parish of North Yell. That is the next parish to this.
9023. How far do they live from you?-Some of them are 10 miles from here.
9024. What estates are they on?-I could hardly tell, except about some of them.
9025. Have any of these men accounts for supplies in your shop?-Yes; perhaps 4 or 5 of them.
9026. For whom were they fishing last year?-Some of them fished for Pole, Hoseason, & Co, and some for Spence & Co.
9027. Do you know why they are leaving these merchants?-I cannot say.
9028. Have you offered them better terms?-I don't think so. They hardly ever say what they have been getting before. We just make them an offer, and if they accept it we come to an understanding.
9029. Do you know whether any of them were indebted, at last settlement, to Pole, Hoseason, & Co., or Spence & Co.?-I cannot say.
9030. Are these men nearer to Greenbank than to you?-Yes, a great deal.
9031. Are your accounts with fishermen kept in a ledger?-I keep them in a sort of shop ledger. Each boat's crew has a company account, and each man has private account. [Produces ledger.]
9032. Your fish-book is a separate book?-Yes; with columns showing the weight of the fish delivered.
9033. What are these pages which you have turned down in your ledger?-They contain the account of William Stewart, who has just been examined.
9034. I see that for 1869 the balance of his account carried forward was £10, 0s. 41/2d., the total of his out-takes at the end of 1869, including that balance was £17, 8s. 11d. The balance due by him then was £6, 19s., after allowing £10, 9s. 11d. for his fish, which was reduced by half of skipper's fee £1, being a balance of £5, 19s. carried to the year 1870?-Yes.
9035. Then in 1870 there is an entry of 13s. 11/2d. account at North Yell: what does that mean?-That is for some small things he got there. We cure our fish there.
9036. The amount of his account at the settlement of 1870 was £17, 6s. 01/2d., and the amount of his fishing was £14, 18s. 41/2d., leaving a balance of £2, 7s. 8d. There is it deduction of 17s. 6d.: what was that for?-It was for a man who went off for Stewart.
[Page 219]
9037. Then there is it check for 19s.?-That was a check he gave me for that sum.
9038. The balance which is left is £2, 6s. 2d.?-Yes.
9039. On January 4, 1871, there are-spirits 2s. 21/2d., and on November 18 and November 29 there are additional supplies to the amount of 11s. 6d., making the balance now due £2, 19s. 101/2d?-Yes.
9040. Are these all the supplies that you have given him since he ceased to fish for you?-Yes. These are all that have been entered in the book.
9041. But he may have got others and paid for them in cash?- Yes.
9042. And he would get goods in payment for his winter fishing?-He has not been at the winter fishing this year.
9043. Or at the spring fishing last year?-He was at the spring fishing for Mr. Thomas Williamson.
9044. What men have you engaged for the rising year?-The engagement has been made partly with my partner in North Yell, and I don't know the names of them yet.
9045. But you know which men have opened accounts with you from North Yell?-Yes. There is Charles More, Gutcher, North Yell; he has got supplies to the amount of 19s. 8d.; and Thomas Brown, who has got supplies to the amount of 17s.
9046. Are these men bound to you now by written engagement?- No, it is merely verbal. Their boat's crew is made up.
9047. Who is your partner in North Yell?-Arthur Nicholson; he has a shop of his own at Gutcher.
9048. Has he boats of his own besides those he has in company with you?-No; but we have never been rightly in company. He has been doing my work in North Yell, and getting a fee for it, and our fish have been thrown together, and sold together.
9049. Is this [showing] the only book you keep?-It is the only book I keep for accounts. I keep an invoice-book and it fish-book also.
9050. Do you keep a day-book?-I keep a book for scrawling things into, until they are posted up in the ledger.
9051. Do you buy kelp?-No.
9052. Do you buy hosiery?-A little sometimes.
9053. Do you pay for it in the way that is usual in the country, by goods across the counter?-Yes, mostly.
9054. Do you give out wool to knit?-I sometimes give out worsted, and I pay for the knitting of it in the same way.
9055. Have you a knitters' book, or are the knitters' accounts kept in the ledger?-I keep a book for women's accounts.
9056. Is that book used entirely for sales of hosiery?-No. We don't do a great deal in hosiery. We buy few haps and small shawls, but the principal thing we buy is worsted. I buy a good deal in the course year from the spinners, and I sell it chiefly in Lerwick to the merchants there. I sell most of it to Mr. Robert Linklater. I invoice it to the merchants, and I take a note of the quantities when I send them away.
9057. When did you send away the last?-I suppose it would be about a couple of months ago.
9058. At what price did you send it out?-We get 3d. per cut for very fine, and 21/2d. and 2d. for the coarsest.
9059. You sell to the merchants as a sort of wholesale dealer?- Yes.
9060. The price per pound of that worsted varies according to the quality?-Yes.
9061. It does not correspond with the price per cut in any way?- No. Of course the finer the worsted the finer the thread is.
9062. You do not calculate the price of that worsted, by the pound at all?-No. We just judge of the fineness or the thickness of it.
9063. The names of the men who were fishing for you in 1871 are entered in the ledger?-Yes.
9064. Had you generally more than two boats previous to last year?-Yes. We sometimes had four, but that was the most I ever had. This [showing] is the company account for one of the boats, Basil Ramsay & Co., and then there are the private accounts of the men.
9065. In Basil Ramsay's private account, the entry 'to cash to rent' on November 17, 1869, referred to cash advanced to him for the purpose of paying his rent?-Yes. He was at that time £2, 11s. 61/2d. in my debt upon the settlement of the previous year. After a bad year I have to advance money to the fishermen in that way, in order to prevent them from being turned out.
9066. Here [showing] is an account of Janet Sinclair, Herra: who is she?-She keeps a small shop of her own, and sells things for me at Herra and buys worsted for me.
9067. Have you many women employed in that way selling goods for you?-Only that one.
9068. In another account there is meal 3s.-that would be half a lispund-in August 1871: was that the selling price at the time?- Very likely it was.
9069. There is also flour 1s. 2d. on the same date: how much was that?-8 lbs., or a peck.
9070. Where do you get your supplies of meal and flour?-Chiefly from Lerwick, from R. & C. Robertson.
9071. Would you consider yourself likely to drive a much larger business if you had a number of fishermen in your employment?- I don't know. Of course there would be more men and more stir and more traffic, and I would likely turn over more goods, because if the men could buy as cheaply from me they would not go anywhere else.
9072. Have you ever had any difficulty in getting the men from another merchant to fish for you in consequence of them being in debt to that other merchant-I never tried that.
9073. But have you found that men had difficulty in engaging with you on that account?-No.
9074. Have you ever been asked by any merchant to undertake the debt due to him by any man whom you employed?-I have never been asked by the merchant, but I have been asked by the men for a little money to clear off their account with another merchant when I engaged them.
9075. Have you been asked to be a security for them?-No. I have only given them cash.
9076. When did you do that last?-It is five years ago. There was a boat's crew who left Pole, Hoseason, & Co. at that time and came over to me. That was Basil Ramsay's boat.
9077. And you advanced them money with which to pay their debt to Pole, Hoseason, & Co.?-Yes; there was a little advance required.
9078. Do you suppose you will have that to do with the boats' crews you have engaged this year?-I don't think so.
9079. Do you know whether they are clear?-I don't know.
9080. How do you ascertain the current price at the end of the year for settling with your men?-We know what the fish cost, and we know what they sell for. We know what the wet fish turn out dry. We can make a calculation of that from the quantity of green fish delivered to us and from the quantity of dry fish which we have to sell.
9081. How much was the proportion in your settlement last year?-I cannot tell exactly what it was last year, but on an average it is 2 cwt. 14 lbs. to 2 cwt. 20 lbs. of wet fish to 1 cwt. of dry fish.
9082. Do you make the allowance according to the proportion you ascertain in each year to exist between your total weight of dry fish and your total weight of green fish?-Yes; there are calculations of that kind made. I don't do it personally, but I believe some of the big curers do it, and then we pay after them.
9083. Do all the large curers agree upon a certain average for each year?-No; they don't make each other acquainted with that. They just pay according to what they sell the fish for, and they give the fishermen the benefit of the rise or fall in the market.
[Page 220]
9084. I am not talking of the average of the current price; I am talking of the average weight of the dry fish as against the green. Does each merchant make his own calculation with regard to that?-I suppose so. I have made calculations in some years, and in others I have not.
9085. How do you take it when you do not make it calculation?-I wait until I see what is current, and then I pay the same.
9086. That is for the money price, but the current price depends on the proportion of dry fish to green?-Yes.
9087. You find out what the large curers have been selling for or have been allowing their men, and you give the same?-Yes.
9088. Are you aware whether all the large curers give the same current price or does it vary with the different houses?-In North Yell, Spence & Co. have some fishermen, and Pole, Hoseason, & Co. have some. We hear what their men are paid, and then our men are paid the same.
9089. Do Pole Hoseason, & Co, and Spence & Co., so far as you know, always pay the same rate?-Yes.
9090. Do you know how their current rate is fixed, or how it is ascertained what the men are to get?-I suppose they just make a calculation in the way I have mentioned.
9091. But you don't know anything about it except that you hear what they pay?-No. I make a calculation for myself to see whether it is over or under, but we tell our men that we will give the current price stated for these parties if they will come and fish for us.
9092. Is your bargain with regard to boat hire the price of lines, and so on, the same with your men as Pole, Hoseason, & Co. have with their men?-Sometimes it varies a little; it is not always fixed. Sometimes we give the men half-a-year's hire off, as an encouragement. They are what are called freemen, and we have to give them some inducement before they will come to us.
9093. What is the usual hire in Yell?-The hire is divided into two. It is £6: £2, 8s. for the boat, and £3, 12s. for the lines.
9094. Is that charged against the boat in the company account?- It is just made up in the balance with the men, and settled for by them. They always carry pass-books.
9095. Then that does not enter the company account?-No.
9096. What is entered in the company account?-It is just the goods got for the supply of the men during the fishing season at the fishing station. [Shows one account.] The North Yell account is an account kept at the station in a pass-book. The boat's hire is estimated before the earnings are divided into six; we make a balance sheet of it, which is added up, and then we place each man's balance to his account.
9097. When you make a deduction from the boat hire as an inducement for the men to fish for you, do you mean that instead of £2, 8s. you charge them only £1, 4s.?-Sometimes we take more off than that. Perhaps on a £6 hire we will take off £3.
9098. Is not that a very liberal deduction?-Yes.
9099. You cannot have much profit on your boats when you do that?-There is no profit on the boats whatever.
9100. What profit do you get on hiring out boats at all?-We get no benefit from that. We only get little benefit from the fish and from the goods sold.
9101. Is it usual to allow so large a deduction from the boat hire?-I cannot say what is done by any one but myself. We have not been in the habit of doing it much. We sometimes take a little off the hire of the boat, in order to make it as moderate for the men as possible.
9102. Are you doing that just now in order to induce fishermen to come to you?-Yes. They come and say they will fish for us if we will give them the currency, and perhaps half the hire down, or the whole hire down.
9103. So that the deduction on the boat hire is really a premium for them coming to fish for you?-Exactly.
Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, ROBERT SMITH, examined.
9104. You are now a fisherman and tenant at Burravoe, on the land of Mr. Henderson?-I am.
9105. Were you formerly resident on the island of Samphray?- Yes. I was there for 35 years.
9106. For whom did you fish when you were there?-For Mr. Robert Hoseason, and his son-in-law James Hoseason, all that time.
9107. Did the island belong to them?-Half of it did, and the other half belonged to Lord Zetland. I lived on Mr. Hoseason's half.
9108. Were you bound to fish for them at that time?-Yes.
9109. Did you ever sell your fish to any one else?-No; we had no occasion to do so, because we got the same payment from him as from another.
9110. Did you never sell your winter fish to another?-No.
9111. Where did you get your supplies at that time?-From Mr. Hoseason at Mossbank.
9112. You kept an account with him, and settled at the end of the year?-Yes, every year.
9113. Had you generally anything to get at the settlement?- Sometimes we had a few pounds to get, and sometimes we could not afford to pay the balance.
9114. You never dealt anywhere else at all?-No; there was no one else near hand that we could have gone to.
9115. Did you never think of going to Lerwick?-No; we went very often to Lerwick, but not in the way of dealing. It was always from Mr. Hoseason that we got what we wanted when he was employing
9116. When you left Samphray you came to Burravoe?-Yes.
9117. Why did you leave?-Because Samphray was thrown waste and made into a park for sheep and cattle.
9118. You have since lived at Burravoe and fished for Mr. Henderson?-Yes.
9119. You have been a skipper of his?-Yes.
9120. Are you to fish for him next year?-I don't know if I will be able to go; I am getting too old. I have been at the fishing every year since 1820.
9121. Is it the bargain with you at Burravoe that you are to fish for your landlord?-Yes.
9122. But you will not be put out of your land if you give up fishing altogether?-No, not that I know of. I have no thought of that at the present time; at least I have no knowledge of it.
9123. Have you spoken to Mr. Henderson about not fishing for him next year?-I have not. I have not made a settlement yet.
9124. Did he not tell you that he would not remove you this year?-No, he has not told me that; but I expect that he will not remove me if I can pay my rent. He has been very kind to me.
9125. Are you sure that he did not tell you that you might remain this year?-I am sure he did not, but he told me that he would not throw me off while I was able to do anything. That is all the security I have.
9126. What do you mean by doing anything?-Any employment that he may put me to, or anything in the way of fishing if I am able to go to it.
9127. Does not the payment of your rent depend upon your fishing?-Sometimes it does; but if I have a cow to dispose of and he requires it, he takes it. If he does not require it, I am at liberty to dispose of it to any one that I can sell it to.
9128. When he takes it, how do you settle about the price?-It generally goes into my account.
[Page 221]
9129. But who fixes the price that is put upon it?-I do. I ask him if he will give me so much for it, and if I can get a better price elsewhere I can sell it there.
9130. Did you ever sell a cow to anybody else than Mr. Henderson?-Yes. I have not sold cows, but I have sold young stots. About three years ago I sold three young stots- one to Mr. Joseph Leask, Lerwick, and another to a man who came round; I don't know his name.
9131. Did not Mr. Henderson want these?-No. He engaged for one, and then when the man came about asking if he could get beasts to buy, Mr. Henderson told him to call upon us for them.
9132. Did Mr. Leask and the other man pay the money down to you for the beasts they bought?-Yes; it was sent from Lerwick to me.
9133. Were you due rent to Mr. Henderson at that time, or any account for goods?-Perhaps I was; it was very seldom that I was not due him an account.
9134. Why was that?-Because the fishing often did not turn out well.
9135. Did you ever go to any one except Mr. Henderson for your goods since you went to live at Burravoe?-If Mr. Henderson did not have what we wanted, then we would go to another for it.
Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, ANDREW BLANCE, examined.
9136. Are you a fisherman, living at Burravoe?-Yes. I am a fisherman, but part of my time has been employed in the seal and whale fishing.
9137. Have you any land at Burravoe?-Yes, I occupy some land there under Mr. M'Queen.
9138. Have you ever been at the summer fishing?-Yes; I was at the ling fishing for two years, one year for Mr. William Williamson, who has lately left Ulsta, and the other year for Mr. Henderson.
9139. When you were at Ulsta did you run an account for what you wanted from Mr. Williamson?-Yes, a small account. If he had any small things that I wanted, and if I saw that I could get them a bargain, I took them from him.
9140. That account was settled at the end of the year?-Yes.
9141. And you got the other things you wanted at Burravoe or Lerwick, or wherever you liked?-Yes.
9142. Where did you get most of your goods?-At Lerwick.
9143. Did you find it more profitable to get them there?-I don't know that it was more profitable; but for a long time the most of my accounts have been in Lerwick.
9144. How often have you been at the seal and whale fishing?-I have been there every year for, I think, the last fifteen or fourteen years.
9145. Is that the reason why most of your accounts are in Lerwick?-I suppose it is.
9146. It is handier for you to have them there when you go to the whale fishing?-Yes.
9147. What agent do you generally engage with for that fishing?- Messrs. Hay & Co. I have always engaged through them, except one season when I was engaged for six weeks by Mr. Leask. That was for the sealing voyage in 1867.
9148. When do you generally go to Lerwick to engage for the whaling?-About the end of February or beginning of March.
9149. Do you go straight to Messrs. Hay's office and tell them you want an engagement?-No, I don't go straight there; but I have always found them very favourable towards me, and therefore I have always been inclined to go out from them.
9150. Do you get your outfit supplied there?-Yes, if I require it.
9151. Do you require a new outfit for the whaling every year?- We always require something new.
9152. Do you also require supplies for your family while you are away at the fishing, such as meal, tea, flour, and things of that sort, and clothing?-Yes.
9153. Where do you keep your account for these things?-With Messrs. Hay & Co.
9154. You always get an advance paid down to you when you are first engaged?-Yes; we get our first month's advance, and then we get a half-pay ticket.
9155. Do you always get a half-pay ticket?-Yes, those who require it.
9156. But do you always get it?-Yes; I have got it ever since it came up. I think it is only four or five years since it came to be used in Shetland.
9157. Were there no allotment tickets in use before four or five years ago?-No, not in Shetland. I never saw them before that time.
9158. Do you leave your allotment ticket with your wife?-We can leave it with any one we choose. I have generally left it with Messrs. Hay.
9159. Did you write anything upon it when you left it with them?-No.
9160. Is the allotment ticket an order to pay to you?-Yes, or to any name which is signed on it.
9161. Was it generally taken in your own name?-I had to mention the name of some person to be filled into the note, and the name of any person that I wanted to draw the money was signed there.
9162. What name did you generally give to be entered in the note?-I forget; but I think the name of Mr. William Robertson, in Messrs. Hay's shop, has been upon it.
9163. Was that done last year?-Yes.
9164. Was his name on it in 1870 also?-I cannot exactly say.
9165. But last year you know that it was?-Yes.
9166. And he was to draw the money on your half-pay allotment ticket?-Yes; he has the ticket, and while he keeps it he knows that no person can be drawing the money. They know that the money is lying, but I don't think Mr. Robertson has drawn the halfpay for me ever since the system commenced.
9167. Was the purpose of giving the allotment ticket to Mr. Robertson, that Messrs. Hay might give your family credit for goods in your absence; or was it a sort of security?-It was a sort of security; but I had no fear about them providing for my family, even although they had not got the ticket.
9168. You think they would have made the advances at any rate?-Yes. They never refused either goods or money.
9169. But still the allotment ticket was a sort of security to them?-Yes.
9170. When you return from your voyage do you generally go straight home or do you take your wages at Lerwick?-I take my wages at Lerwick.
9171. Before you come home?-Yes, if possible.
9172. Do you go up and settle before the shipping-master or superintendent?-Yes, I must do that.
9173. That did not use to be done at Lerwick?-It did not.
9174. Why has it been done lately?-I don't know.
9175. Was it not because it was not easy to get the Shetland men to wait for a settlement-they were so anxious to get home?- Perhaps it was. I and several others have to go to the North Isles and it is not every day we can get there. Staying one day in Lerwick might make us stay half a dozen, or perhaps a dozen, days; and therefore if we see a chance to get home whenever we land we are glad to take it.
9176. Then you go back when you find it convenient?-Yes.
9177. And you go before Mr. Gatherer the superintendent, and receive your wages in cash?-Yes; but many a time we have the chance of getting our money before we leave Lerwick if we could only wait another day.
9178. When you have an account standing in Messrs. Hay's books, how do you settle it?-We go back to the shop from the shipping office and pay the money.
[Page 222]
9179. How long has that been done?-I suppose for the last four or five years.
9180. Before that, you had a settlement at the office, and only got the balance in cash?-Yes.
9181. Is there any deduction made now from the cash you receive at the superintendent's office?-Nothing except the advance of our first month's wages, and the amount drawn under allotment tickets.
9182. But when you give an allotment ticket in the way you have mentioned, how do you do: do you get your half-pay handed over to you in cash?-Yes, if it is not drawn.
9183. Is it sometimes drawn?-No; my half-pay has not been drawn, so far as I recollect. [Produces four accounts of wages.]
9184. Who is William Manson, agent for master?-He is Messrs. Hay's clerk.
9185. The only deduction here is for stores in the ship, and your advance, and the fees?-That is all.
9186. Then in that year, 1870, you got the balance of £16, 3s. 6d. paid to you?-Yes.
9187. What was the amount of your account at Hay & Co.'s?-I don't remember in that year.
9188. Here [showing] is your account for 1871 when you had a balance of £19, 2s. to receive: do you remember the amount of your account, that year?-I do not.
9189. How much ready cash did you bring home with you when you had settled on 25th July?-I am not quite sure, but I think it was about £16.
9190. Then your account for the season would only be about £3?- That was all.
9191. Would that be the whole of the supplies you got for your family that year?-Yes; it was short voyage.
9192. Had you also a short and a very successful voyage last year?-Yes.
9193. You have not got your final payment of oil-money for 1871?-No.
9194. Have you got it for 1870?-Yes.
9195. Was that settled for before the superintendent, Mr. Gatherer?-Yes, it was paid at the custom-house. I think I got an account of wages for that too, but I could not say exactly. The oil on which the money was paid was 42 tons. The first payment of oil-money was upon 150 tons, making 192 altogether.
9196. Was the whole of that paid at the custom house?-Yes.
9197. Are you quite sure about that?-I am sure enough.
9198. And are you sure you got an account of the second payment of oil-money, although you have not got it now?-I am not sure about that. I think I got an account of wages for that too but I cannot say.
9199. How did you manage to keep the accounts of wages you have produced, when you did not keep the account for the last payment of oil-money?-Because I got these accounts of wages when I was going home, but at the time when I got the account for the last payment I was going away.
9200. Is your last payment of oil-money generally made to you when you are shipping in the following year?-I never get it until I am going away next year, and therefore it is easy to see how I may have lost the papers which I got then.
9201. Have you any accounts running with Messrs. Hay between the end of one whaling voyage and the beginning of another?- Very often I have. If I require anything I send to Messrs. Hay for it, or to any other man in Lerwick.
9202. Do you also get advances of cash from them when you want them?-Yes.
9203. Do you generally settle with Messrs. Hay at the time when you are engaged for the next year's voyage?-No. I settle with them at the time when I get paid.
9204. But you don't get your second payment of oil-money until you are going away for a new voyage?-I get it whenever it comes; but I told you that last year I did not get it until I was going away.
9205. Did that never happen before?-It has happened before.
9206. You have produced a receipt granted by you to Mr. Leask for £1, 5s. 3d. in 1867: how does that receipt happen to be in your possession?-That was a short voyage, only six weeks, in the 'Polynia' of Dundee and there were no half-pay tickets. I got an advance from him, and when I paid the money again at the end of the voyage the receipt was handed back to me.
9207. Was that advance given to you in cash?-No, I got my first month's advance in cash, and then I got that advance in goods.
9208. Was that for your own outfit, or for your family?-I think it was for my own outfit.
9209. Have you got payments of that kind frequently from the agents who have engaged you?-No; that was the only one.
9210. Did you get your first month's advance in addition to this?- Yes.
9211. Did you get it in cash or in goods?-I got it in a line to be cashed a day or two after we sailed. I gave the line to Mr. Leask's man, and got the principal part of it in money. Then they drew the money from the shipowner after I left.
9212. You took your first month's advance partly in money and partly in goods?-Yes, I think that was the way of it.
9213. And you got £1, 5s. 3d. in goods in addition to that?-Yes.
9214. Why did you want that amount of goods?-I have wanted three times that amount, according to circumstances. For one voyage I would require that amount, if I had not a good stock.
9215. Why did you not get the whole of your first month's advance in goods when you say you were requiring them?-Perhaps I was requiring money for some other purpose. I had perhaps to send part of it home.
9216. Why did you not take the whole of your month's advance in goods, and then get that advance in cash?-Perhaps I got more than that in cash. That advance was only 25s., and I had £2, 10s. per month.
9217. Did you get the whole payment of your wages for that voyage before you left?-Yes, except the second payment of oil-money. That second payment is made after the oil is boiled. There is a calculation made when we come home with regard to the whole amount of oil that is in the ship, and when we arrive we are paid a proportion of that. Then, when the oil is boiled; they see what it actually amounts to and we are paid the balance of our oil-money.
9218. Then on this voyage in 1867, which you made for Mr. Leask, you were advanced at sailing the whole amount of your wages and the first payment your oil-money?-Yes.
9219. And all that you had to get afterwards was your last payment of oil-money?-Yes.
9220. You got the whole of the amount in cash or goods?-Yes.
9221. But mostly in goods?-I could not say that it was mostly in goods, because, except the £1, 5s. 3d. and perhaps 10s. of my first month's advance I do not think I got more goods from them. I am not sure; about that; but I cannot say that I got more.
Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, JOHN JOHNSTON, examined.
9222. You hold some land now from Mr. M'Queen at Burravoe?- Yes.
9223. Do you fish for Mr. Henderson?-No; I fish for Mr. Adie at the Out Skerries.
9224. Were you formerly a tenant on the Lunna estate?-Yes. I left it seven years ago because Sheriff Bell's tenantry there were handed over to Mr. Robertson, and were bound to fish for him. He and I had disputed at one time, and I was not very well satisfied about fishing for him. I was paying my land rent to the Sheriff, and I thought that when a man was [Page 223] paying his land rent he ought to have freedom to fish to the best advantage for himself that he could.
9225. Where did you engage to fish that season?-At the Skerries, to Mr. Adie.
9226. You thought you could make a better thing of it by fishing for Mr. Adie, and you went to him?-Yes.
9227. What happened in consequence of that?-Nothing happened, except that I must either be bound to fish for Mr. Robertson or leave the property.
9228. Were you told that you must leave the property?-Yes; the Sheriff himself told me that.
9229. Was Mr. Robertson his factor or his tacksman?-His tacksman.
9230. To whom did you pay your rent at Lunna?-To Mr. Robertson when he came to be tacksman, but the Sheriff before that.
9231. Who first told you that you were to leave your ground at Lunna?-The Sheriff himself.
9232. When was that?-The year before I left. That was nine years ago.
9233. Was that when you had first engaged with Mr. Adie?-No. I fished for two years for Mr. Robertson after that, after I removed to Yell.
9234. Then why did you leave Lunna? I thought you told me it was because you engaged with Mr. Adie that you were turned out of your ground there?-No; it was not because I engaged with Mr. Adie. It was because I would not fish for Mr. Robertson.
9235. Why did you fish for Mr. Robertson for two years after that, although you were not bound?-We were fishing then at our own freedom.
9236. Were you asked to sign any obligation to fish for Mr. Robertson?-No.
9237. How did you intimate that you were not going to be bound to fish for him? Had you a conversation with Mr. Bell on the subject?-Yes. At the time when Mr. Bell's tenants were handed over to Mr. Robertson, I was in the merchant service; but they made a statement then that the tenants were to be bound to fish for him.
9238. Who made the statement?-Mr. Bell and Mr. Robertson made it after I came home. For the last ten years I have been at the ling fishing. The first winter I came home I caught some cod, small and big, and I salted them, and went down to Lerwick and sold them to Messrs. Hay. Mr. Robertson got word of that, and got an account from Messrs. Hay of the cod that I had sold. He handed that to the Sheriff, who came to Lunnasting; and I was called up and found fault with for not selling the fish to Mr. Robertson as tacksman. He asked me my reason for that; and I said that I had signed no agreement to fish for him; that I was due him nothing; and that I did not see why I could not sell my fish to any man I liked. Bell said very little to that; but he gave me to understand that after that I was either to leave the property, or to pay £1 of a fine if I sold my fish to any other person.
9239. Was that a written notice?-Yes.
9240. Have you got it now?-No, I have lost it.
9241. Did you pay the fine?-Yes.
9242. Did you not try to get off with it?-No.
9243. Did you think you were legally bound to pay it?-No; and that was the reason why I would not stay upon his property. If I could have got a 'downsitting' handy that suited me at the time, I would not have paid it, because I did not think it right.
9244. Did you fish for Mr. Robertson after that?-Yes, for two years.
9245. How did you happen to fish for him?-We just made a kind of agreement with him, first for two years; but still we were not satisfied, and as we did not wish to be bound to fish for him, we stopped.
9246. Did anything more pass between you and Mr. Robertson or Mr. Bell, about leaving the ground or about being bound to fish?- No.
9247. Then how did you come at last to leave Lunna? Did you give them notice that you were going, or did they give you notice to quit?-I was on the look-out after that for some other place, because I was determined, after paying that £1, which I was not due to shift to a convenient place at the first opportunity.
9248. You got a place at Burravoe; and since then have you been at liberty to fish for any person you pleased?-Yes.
9249. Do you get your supplies at Mr. Adie's store at Skerries?- Yes; our sea stock, and all that we require during the fishing season
9250. When you are at home, where do you get your supplies?- Sometimes from Lerwick, and sometimes we get something from Mr. Adie when we settle.
9251. Do you bring home supplies with you from Skerries?-No, we never settle at Skerries; we settle at Voe in Mr. Adie's office.
9252. Have you an account at Voe as well as at Skerries?-Yes. Our Skerries account for the fishing season is always handed over to Voe, and it is all settled there.
9253. Do you sometimes bring a large supply of provisions home from Voe?-Sometimes, and sometimes not. When we think we can make a better of it, we will send to Lerwick for them.
9254. Have you not to bring them a good bit by land when you get them from Voe?-Yes.
9255. Why do you take the trouble to carry your supplies so far as that?-We have no particular reason for it, only we are there at any rate, and we can get them there as good a bargain as we can get them in Lerwick and nearer us, and it saves us the freight.
9256. How often do you go to Voe in the course the year?-Once a year.
9257. When you go there to settle, are you asked to take some goods home with you?-Not at all, unless we require them ourselves.
9258. Of course you are not obliged to do it unless you like; but don't they ask you whether you want any goods?-Yes, they will do that. Sometimes Mr. Adie's shop people will ask if we are requiring anything.
9259. Is that before you settle or afterwards?-It is generally after we have settled.
9260. Does that supply go into the next year's account?-If we are requiring the cash we have got, either for paying the land-master or any other purpose, they will let the goods stand until next account.
9261. But sometimes you got goods before settlement, and they went into the past year's account if you did not want the cash?- No. Since we fished for Mr. Adie, there were no goods we got at that time which went into the past year's account. They always went into the rising year's account, unless they were paid for in cash.
9262. Sometimes you paid them in cash?-Yes.
9263. And in that case they would not enter any account?-No. I generally pay all my goods with cash, so far as I can.
9264. Do you find them cheaper when they are paid for in that way?-Yes.
9265. And that is what you do generally when you go to Lerwick?-Yes.
9266. Have you generally had a balance to get from Mr. Adie at the end of the year since you fished for him?-Yes, always.
9267. Could you get the same goods that you get at Voe as cheap nearer home, and as good?-I cannot say.
9268. Is there any difference in quality between Mr. Adie's goods and those you get at Burravoe or at Lerwick?-I cannot say that there is. There is often a great difference in the quality of goods, even although they are sold at one price, and as being the same quality.
9269. Where have you found that?-I have bought tea on different occasions at one place, and at the same price, and have found differences in the quality. I don't think that was due so much to the people selling it, as to the chest decaying. I have sometimes found it good and sometimes bad in every place I have had it from.
9270. Do you take goods from Mr. Henderson's shop at Burravoe?-I have had very few goods from him. I never had any meal or tea from him. All I have got has been a few nails or anything I required for my boats.
[Page 224]
Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, ARTHUR ANDERSON, examined.
9271. You are a fisherman at Burravoe, on Mr. M'Queen's property?-I am.
9272. Were you formerly a tenant and fisherman at Lunna?-Yes. I was not very long a tenant, but I was a fisherman. I left it 7 years ago at Martinmas, at the same time as Johnston.
9273. Had you been bound there to fish for Mr. Robertson?-I did fish for him; but while I was a young man, and unmarried, they could not compel me.
9274. Had you some land there afterwards?-Yes. I had some for two years before I left.
9275. Were you told then that you were bound to fish for Mr. Robertson?-Yes. The Sheriff told me that at the same time that he told Johnston.
9276. Were you both together at the time?-No.
9277. Had you both been sent for at the same time?-There was a meeting in a place near Lunna, and the whole tenantry were told that they were to be under one control, and to fish for Mr. Robertson. I think that meeting was held in the schoolroom. I think both Sheriff Bell and Mr. Robertson were present.
9278. Did Mr. Bell tell you that he expected you all to fish for Mr. Robertson?-Yes.
9279. What else did he say?-I was not very old then, and I don't remember.
9280. Why did you leave Lunna?-I was in a double family, and I thought the place I was in was too small for the whole of us; therefore I thought I would try to look out for some place in which to live.
9281. You did not leave it because you wanted your freedom?- Not altogether.
9282. Had you been fined for selling your fish anywhere else?- No.
9283. Do you know any other man in Lunna who was fined for that except Johnston?-I don't remember of any.
9284. Who do you fish for now?-For Mr. Adie, the same as Johnston does.
9285. Do you deal in the same way as he described?-Yes.
9286. How do you get your supplies, for your family?-Sometimes Mr. Adie will send us meal for our families from Aberdeen or from Leith, and we will pay the freight. It is not easy for him to send it to us from his place at Voe, but he will send it from these other places if we ask him.
9287. Do these supplies go to your account?-Yes.
9288. Do you ever get supplies anywhere else?-Sometimes in Skerries, where we fish.
9289. These go into the same account, and are settled for at Voe?-Yes.
9290. Do you bring goods from Voe at settling time when you want them?-We always bring something.
9291. Are you asked if you want goods when you go there to settle?-Yes; they will ask us if we desire anything.
9292. But you need not take them unless you like?-No.
9293. Do you get any goods at Burravoe?-Not very much. We don't run very large accounts there.
9294. Mr. Henderson's shop is not very far from where you live?-It is not very far.
9295. Would it not be handier for you to get your goods there?- We don't run very large accounts with him. I might get my goods from him if I was fishing for him, but when I am not putting any fish or any produce his way I don't ask anything.
9296. Could you not get the money for your fish, and buy your goods where it was most convenient for you?-We might.
9297. Did you never think of doing that?-No.
9298. Why?-I don't know.
9299. Do you think Mr. Henderson will charge higher prices from those who do not fish for him?-I cannot say.
9300. You never were afraid of that?-No.
Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, GILBERT ROBERTSON, examined.
9301. You are a fisherman and tenant at Hamnavoe on Mr. M'Queen's property?-I am.
9302. You are an elder of the Established Church in South Yell parish?-Yes.
9303. How long have you been at Hamnavoe?-All my life. I am 56 years of age, and I was born on the property.
9304. Were you formerly bound to fish to the tacksman on the property?-No; I have had liberty all my time to fish for any one I liked, except for three years, when my landlord, the late Mr. Robert Bruce, required us to fish for him. He succeeded to the property about 1853, and it was in 1857 or 1858 that he required our services.
9305. You have been a skipper for a number of years?-For two years, but not for the last two years. I was two years at the whale fishing in 1868 and 1869. In 1868 I engaged with Messrs. Hay, and in 1869 I engaged with Mr. George Reid Tait. I got my first month's advance laid down at the custom-house, and when I came back I got the rest at the custom-house. If I was due a small thing to the agent I went to him and paid it.
9306. Did you get an outfit?-Only a small thing. I had some things myself, and it was only a few things that I required from the agents. Anything that I required for my family I got from Robertson & Co. I have had an account with them for a long time. I have had as much as £7, 3s. from them in a year.
9307. Why did you deal with them?-I found them to be good men. They always try to advance people as far as they can, and especially people who strive to pay them back again.
9308. Have you ever fished in the ling fishing?-Yes; I have been there for the last two years. The year before last I fished for Mr. Henderson, Burravoe, and last year I fished for William Jack Williamson at Ulsta.
9309. Did you run accounts with them?-Very little.
9310. Was that because you dealt with R. & C. Robertson?-Yes.
9311. Do most of the men deal with the merchants they fish for?- They do, because they have no money of their own, and they require their fishing to pay for what they get.
9312. Do they get their out-takes on credit?-Yes, until the fishing is done, and then they clear it off. I had no dealings with these two merchants except for my living in the summer time-meal and tea and sugar.
9313. Were these for your company account?-Yes.
9314. Do you think you get your supplies cheaper from R. & C. Robertson than you would get them from the merchants you fish for?-I think so.
9315. And better, or at least as good?-Yes. If I send to Messrs. Robertson for a sack of meal, I get it at the Lerwick price, with the addition of the freight, but when the meal comes to a merchant in the North Isles, he has to take a little profit on it besides.
9316. Are any of the merchants here supplied with their meal from R. & C. Robertson?-I cannot say.
9317. Because if they are not they might possibly get their supplies from the south, and land them here cheap as Messrs. Robertson can land them at Lerwick?-They might. I believe Mr. Henderson, Burravoe, fetches his meal from the south occasionally.
9318. And as easily as the Robertsons can fetch it to Lerwick?- Yes; he has just the freight between Lerwick and Burravoe to pay.
9319. But he might bring it by a sailing vessel from Aberdeen?- He might, but it always comes by the steamer.
9320. Do you know as a fact that the price at Lerwick is less than the price you would be charged meal at Burravoe?-It is a little less.
9321. Do you also find that the quality of the meal better there?- It is sometimes as good in Lerwick at a price of 2s., or 2s. 6d., or 3s. cheaper at Burravoe than it is in the North Isles. I have bought flour lately from [Page 225] Messrs. Robertson at 16s. or 18s. a boll, and have bought it as low as 14s. 6d.
9322. Have you bought any meal during the last year?-No; I did not require it.
9323. But before that you found a difference of 2s. on the flour, and 3s. or 4s. on the sack of meal?-Yes.
9324. Have you bought provisions or supplies from Mr. Henderson, Burravoe, lately?-Not for a long time. Perhaps I might buy a 1/4 lb. of tea or something like that, if I was at his door; but I paid for it then, and there was no account.
9325. You say you have been quite free to fish for any one you pleased except during three years: did Mr. M'Queen ever forbid you to fish for Mr. Henderson?-Once. I think that was about three years ago; but he (Mr. M'Queen) came to see that that would not do and it was never more spoken of.
9326. Did you fish that year for Mr. Henderson?-No. I went to Greenland; but in the following year I fished for him.
9327. Did you go to Greenland because Mr. M'Queen asked you to do so?-It was almost because of him telling me not to fish for Mr. Henderson.
9328. But you did not like to be interfered with?-No. If I paid my rent to my landlord at the end of the season, I liked to be at liberty to go where I pleased. With regard to the winter fishing, it does not matter much, because they will pay ready money for it whenever we bring in the fish.
9329. Don't you think it would be better if the people here were paid ready money for everything, instead of running such long accounts, and settling only once year?-It might, but I don't know how things would go then. If we were to pay ready money for everything that we got from the merchants, it might not come to answer very well.
9330. Why is that?-Because if I were taking anything to a merchant to sell, such as hosiery, and asking ready money for it, I would not get so much as if I were to let the price lie in his hands for some time.
9331. But don't you think the merchant would sell his goods cheaper to you if you were paying him in ready money?-I believe he would do that.
9332. Don't you think the people would manage their affairs better if they had the money in their own hands?-I think so; because if a man does a day's work, and is not paid for it until the end of five or six months, he is not likely to do so well with it as if the money was paid down to him at once and he could go where he liked with it, to make the best bargain for himself in buying things.
9333. Is it not a great trouble to keep in mind all the things that you have got to your credit-a day's work now, and your fish again, and a beast, perhaps which you have sold, and then to recollect all the outtakes you have had besides?-Yes. I have sold few beasts now for several years, but I always got the money paid down to me on the day when I sold them.
9334. You think that is handier than getting them put down into an account?-Yes.
Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, JOSEPH LEASK POLE, examined.
9335. Are you a partner of the firm of Pole, Hoseason, & Co.?-I am not a partner.
9336. Are you the manager at Greenbank?-Yes.
9337. You were cited to bring some books?-I was and I have brought the only book which can give any information as to our intromissions with fishermen. Our principal books are kept at Mossbank, because that is the head-quarters of the firm.
9338. What books do you keep at Greenbank?-We only keep a ledger into which the account of each fisherman who has one is entered.
9339. Are there some fishermen whom you employ at Greenbank who do not open accounts?-I don't know if there are any; there may be one or two.
9340. In that account at Greenbank do you enter on the one side all the out-takes of the fishermen, and on the other the sums which are due to them for fish or any other matters?-No. The ledger I have with me shows merely the shop accounts of the fishermen. The ledger you refer to is kept at Mossbank.
9341. Are all the balances made at Mossbank?-Yes.
9342. Do the men go there for settlement?-No, they settle at Greenbank; but my brother settles with them, and he brings the book over with him and takes it back with him when he goes to Mossbank again.
9343. What quantity of fish did you sell from Greenbank last year?-About 54 tons of dry fish.
9344. What number of boats had you engaged to produce that quantity?-We had 14 boats altogether. One boat had three men fishing in it, another had four, and the rest had six apiece.
9345. Then the only book you have at Greenbank the ledger containing the accounts for shop goods furnished to your men?- That is the only book we keep there.
9346. Is there a woman's book besides?-No; we don't keep a woman's book at Greenbank.
9347. Do you purchase kelp?-Yes, we do; and we enter it in the kelp-book by itself.
9348. Is not that a sort of woman's book?-No.
9349. Is it not women mostly whom you employ at that?-It is women mostly, indeed altogether, who are employed in making the kelp at Greenbank.
9350. What quantity of kelp did you sell last year?-I think only about nine tons.
9351. What price do you allow to women for kelp?-We have two prices for kelp: 4s. in goods, and 3s. 6d. in cash.
9352. Is that a lower price than on the mainland?-I am not aware that it is, but I cannot speak as to that.
9353. Then, of course, you have a fish-book?-It is kept at Mossbank.
9354. How do your factors mark down the fish at landing?-There is a book kept at Gloup, which is the station in summer, and the factor marks the fish there. Then, as soon as the season is over, the amount is added up and sent to Mossbank to be entered in the fish-book.
9355. It is merely the amount of fish that is added up in the book at Gloup?-Yes.
9356. And the balance is made in a separate book at Mossbank?- Yes; in a ledger by itself, which is kept there.
9357. In that book the total goods supplied at Greenbank are entered in a slump sum?-Yes. The fishermen keep their shop account in one part of our business premises, and their slump account, as it were, in another part.
9358. That is to say, that at Greenbank they check their shop account?-Yes.
9359. Do they come to check it generally themselves, or do they have pass-books?-Some of them get pass-books, and others do not.
9360. If they have no pass-book, how do they check it?-I suppose they check it from their own memory.
9361. Do they come for that purpose before settling time?-No; they generally come about settling time.
9362. Do they not settle at Mossbank?-No; we settle with all our Greenbank fishermen at Greenbank.
9363. Are your books brought from Mossbank for that purpose?- Yes. As I said before, the principal of our business brings them along with him when he comes to settle with the men, and he takes them back with him when he goes back.
9364. Is it at that time that the totals of the shop accounts at Greenbank are entered into the principal ledger?-Yes; and the fisherman gets a note of the amount of his account from me. He settles with me for that, and takes the note in to my brother, who settles the whole account.
9365. Have you also a day-book at Greenbank?-Yes.
[Page 226]
9366. Is that for cash transactions, or do the whole of your transactions first pass into it before being carried into the ledger?-Almost all our transactions pass through it.
9367. What transactions do not pass through it?-If I happened to be posting my ledger at the time when a person was getting anything to be marked down, I might mark it straight into the ledger without putting it through the day-book, in order to save the trouble of posting.
9368. Do most of the fishermen whom you employ at Greenbank and Gloup reside within a short distance of these places?-No; they are scattered over the parish of North Yell, and a few of them are in this parish.
9369. Your brother, when examined at Brae, mentioned the properties which belonged to the members of the firm, and of which he was tacksman, but I forget whether he mentioned if there were any properties of which members of the firm are tacksmen: are there any such?-My brother is tacksman of Mr. Walker's property in North Yell, and Pole, Hoseason, Co. are factors for George Hoseason of Basta, in North Yell, also. I think the number of tenants on Mr. Walker's estate might be fourteen, and the number on George Hoseason's may be nine or ten.
9370. Are these men bound to fish to you by the terms on which they hold their land?-They are not bound by any written or special engagement, but it is understood that they will fish to us, and most of them do so.
9371. Are they bound to fish for you in the Faroe fishing?-No; we have no Faroe fishing in connection with Greenbank at all.
9372. But you have at Mossbank?-Yes.
9373. If one of these men were to go to the Faroe fishing, would you consider yourself entitled to the first offer of his services in one of your smacks?-We would.
9374. Then there is an understanding to that effect?-It is understood that these men will fish to us if we require them.
9375. In point of fact, do any men on these properties in North Yell engage for the Faroe fishing with any other merchants?- There are very few, if who go from North Yell to the Faroe fishing now. It is principally young men who go there. I cannot at this moment recollect any one who goes to Faroe from the north district.