9705. Is there any other point falling within this inquiry upon which you are prepared to make any statement?-The only other statement I should wish to make would be a sort of qualification as to why the fishermen are generally dissatisfied with the prices they get. It is understood that they get one-third, or a little more when the prices are high, and if that is the understanding they argue that they ought to see the bills of sale. They say, 'Why not lay down to us when you settle, the document according to which you have sold your fish; we don't know what you have sold them at, we only have that from hearsay.' That is the only reason why I think the fishermen actually complain.
9706. Do you see any reason why they should not see the bills of sale?-I think they are entitled to see them.
[Page 235]
9707. Are they not really partners with the curer?-They are; for they are risking the market as well as the curer.
9708. Have you read the evidence that was given before this Commission in Edinburgh?-I have; and the only observation I would make upon it is, that I am not a believer in it generally. Facts are stated as existing many years ago, but which are not applicable to the present day, as a general rule, throughout Shetland.
9709. Do you think the condition of Shetland has improved during the sixteen years you have lived in it?-Yes; especially during the last five, and more especially during the last three years. The prices of cattle have been so high that a tenant could pay his rent at once with an animal, when he could not do that before. The price of fish has also improved.
9710. These, however, may be transient facts?-They may be.
9711. Prices may fall?-They may.
9712. Is there any permanent cause operating to improve the condition of Shetland?-There is more direct communication with the south. Purchasers come into it now and buy directly, instead of buying through natives resident here acting as their agents, and who perhaps might charge something extra for their own trouble, and that had to come off the people. There is one part of Mr. Walker's evidence which I consider to be perfectly true, where he referred to the giving of credit to children or almost children. I believe that to be an injurious practice, because children are initiated into the system of getting credit when they are eleven or twelve years old, and it never ceases with them unless they leave home. It may in certain cases cease; but as a general rule it does not, and I think it is like learning them to smoke tobacco, or anything of that sort.
9713. Is there any other point in Mr. Walker's evidence, or the evidence given in Edinburgh, which you consider to be true?-The evidence given in Edinburgh contained a great many facts highly coloured, and I may add somewhat exaggerated.
9714. Do you think the present state of the hosiery trade is a wholesome one?-No. I consider the hosiery trade, as a whole, to be a morally unhealthy one as it present exists.
9715. Is that because of the facilities which offers for the younger members of the family to get into debt?-It is not that. I speak particularly of Yell, where yarn is produced; the merchants have to lay a higher price on their goods when they give them for yarn than they would do for cash, or for any other article brought to them which was worth its value in cash.
9716. Do they put a higher price upon the goods which they sell for yarn?-They must do it.
9717. Is not that high price charged in all other sales as well as in sales which they make for yarn?-No; the country merchants here have two prices.
9718. You heard the evidence of Mr. Pole to-day, in which he said they had only one price for all their goods?-Yes. Mr. Pole seems to have adopted a new system. I know they had two prices some time ago.
9719. You are aware that two prices did exist there?-Yes, and in many other places.
9720. You believe that to be unwholesome?-I do.
9721. Does it create a bad feeling towards the merchant?-I think the practice is morally wrong. To meet these things, many females come, not with 100 threads in each cut, but with from 90 down to 80, obliging the merchant to count the yarn which he buys from certain parties in whom he has not implicit confidence.
9722. Of course that encourages deception?-Yes. With regard to the trade in yarn, the merchant buys it according to its quality. If he is to sell it in Lerwick, he employs a party for the purpose, who receives a percentage for selling it. The merchant has also to pay freight, and he has to lay these things upon his goods.
9723. Are you aware that in Lerwick the practice of the merchants
is not to sell worsted at all, but merely to purchase what they want
for their own use?-I am not aware of that. I know there are
merchants in Lerwick who do sell worsted, but they could scarcely
be called
9724. These are not hosiery shops?-No; they are sometimes grocers.
9725. I fancy that a party selling yarn may more readily take it to a grocer if she wants provisions rather than dry goods, as she will not get provisions in Lerwick from the merchants?-The grocer won't buy it unless he requires it for family use, but he will take it from a merchant as a favour, and sell it for him.
9726. But I have been informed by many merchants in Lerwick that they always purchase Shetland worsted for money; and as they require all they can get and more for their own use, they do not sell it again at all; so that, according to that information, any person going from Yell to Lerwick and selling worsted, could get the highest cash price for it from one of the hosiery merchants: is that not consistent with your knowledge of the matter?-I am aware that cash has been given. I have known a firm that dealt with a Lerwick hosiery merchant to a very large extent, and perhaps received £90 in cash for hosiery and yarn in one season. That, however, I looked upon as an exception.
9727. You heard the evidence of William Stewart with regard to Whalsay?-Yes.
9728. You were employed by the late Mr. Bruce to divide the toons there?-Yes. He wished to abolish the run-rig system, and to place his tenants on a money-paying system-to fish for whom they chose, and to pay him a rent. I was employed to make the division, and I divided every toon in the island, except one.
9729. At that time did you find that the system which Stewart described was either prevailing, or had been prevailing shortly before?-It was just dying out.**
[Page 236]
9730. Does any other person wish to be examined, or to make any statement? [No answer.] Then I adjourn the sittings here until further notice.
*The witness afterwards forwarded a number of these lines. They were in similar terms to the following:-
'CULLIVOE, 8
'Mr. HOUSTON,-Please credit A.B. in rent account the sum of seven pounds and sevenpence, and charge to account of ' SANDISON BROTHERS.'
**Mr. Houston afterwards submitted the following remarks by
way of supplement to his evidence;-The collecting of rents and
In my evidence I stated that at present I considered fishermen
were generally well treated, and received as high a price as the
curer could well afford; but at same time I
JOAN OGILVY, examined.
9731. Have you been in the habit of knitting with your own worsted?-Yes; at times with my own worsted, and at times with worsted from other people.
9732. When you knit with your own worsted, do you spin it yourself?-No; sometimes I buy it, and sometimes other people spin it for me; but it is not much that I do in that way. The most I have made has been for other people.
9733. Do you not spin at all?-No; my mother spins a little and I have knitted that and sold the hosiery.
9734. At what shops do you buy worsted here?-I have not bought any, except a little, once, at John Johnston's shop. I paid 3d. a cut for it in cash.
9735. Do they not give you worsted unless you pay for it in money?-I never asked it.
9736. Have you never asked for worsted when you were selling your hosiery?-No.
9737. Are you generally paid for your hosiery in goods?-Yes, goods or other articles which I require such as tea and meal, and other things.
9738. Do you sell most of your knitting to Mrs. Spence?-No. I have sold nothing to her, except one half-shawl. I have sold a few veils to John Johnston. They are very fine veils that I knit, and I get 1s. 6d. for each of them.
9739. Are you always paid for them in goods?-No. I have got cash. I knit superior articles, and I have sometimes got as much as 30s. for knitting one silk shawl. That was not the price of the shawl: it was merely for the knitting.
9740. But when you sell a shawl made by yourself, what do you get for it?-I sold one worsted shawl in May in John Johnston's shop, for which I got 19s. 6d. I did not ask for any cash, because it was not the custom to give it.
9741. Is it the custom here to pay for hosiery in nothing but goods?-I get cash at times.
9742. Are your shawls generally worth about 20s.?-No; I have sold half-shawls at 16s., and others at 15s. and 14s.
9743. What was the largest sum you ever got in money when you sold a shawl of that value?-15s.; that was the whole price of it, but that was some years back, and I sold it to a lady.
9744. But when you sold to a merchant have you ever got the whole price in money?-No; I never asked it.
9745. Do you get a higher price for your work when you take it in goods than when you get money for it?-I don't think so.
9746. You said you sold a shawl in May last for 19s. 6d., and got the price all in goods. Suppose you had asked payment for that shawl in money, would you have asked the same price for it?- Yes, but I would not have got it. They would not have give cash for it.
9747. Would you not have got 2s. 6d. less in money?-I did not ask for it in that way.
9748. Would you have sold that shawl for 17s. if you had got money?-I think so.
9749. Would you rather have had the 17s. in money than the 19s. 6d. in goods?-I don't think I would have been any better.
9750. Did you want the goods?-Yes.
9751. Would you not have got them cheaper if you had had the cash in your hand to pay for them?-I might have got them a little cheaper.
9752. Do you think you would always be willing to sell your hosiery goods a little cheaper if you were paid in cash instead of in goods?-I don't think I would. The price is low enough, even with the goods payment.
9753. When you get the worsted given out to you, are you paid in money or in goods for knitting it?-Sometimes in money and sometimes in goods, just as I ask it.
9754. For whom do you knit in that way?-I have knitted some for Mrs. Spence. I knit fine silk for her, not Shetland worsted. I got 30s. for knitting one shawl for her, and 25s. for another; but these were very fine ones, and of large size. It took me a long time to work them. She paid me for these in cash.
9755. Did she hand you over the money, or did she send you down to the shop for it?-She gave me the money with her own hand.
9756. Did she do so in both cases?-Yes; part of it, and part I took a little goods for, just as suited myself.
9757. How much of the 30s. did she hand you over in cash?-I cannot say exactly now, because it is more than a year ago.
9758. Did she give you a half of it in cash?-More than that.
9759. How did you get the rest in goods? Did you go to the shop for them?-No. They were brought from Lerwick for me. They were women's cloth jackets.
9760. Were you to sell these in your own shop?-I have no shop.
9761. Did you not sell groceries?-No. I had a little goods at one time to sell for a man in Lerwick, but I have none now. I gave out hosiery to the girls, and when they brought it back I served them with the goods which I had got from the man in Lerwick.
9762. Who was he?-Peter Edward Petrie.
9763. Does he deal in hosiery?-Yes.
9764. And does he deal in groceries in Lerwick?-He has given up his shop, but he dealt there at one time in soft goods and tea.
9765. How much cash did you get from Mrs. [Page 237] Spence for the 25s. shawl?-I don't remember; it is two years ago.
9766. Have you sold some things to Mrs. Spence since?-No; but I have always knitted some things for her. The last was a fine worsted shawl. I took it to her about a month ago. I think the price would be 12s., but I have not settled with her yet.
9767. Do you keep an account with her?-She keeps an account for me herself.
9768. Have you not got any part of the price of that shawl?-The price is not settled, but I have got some goods for it.
9769. Do you sometimes take a line from her?-No; I have had no lines from her.
9770. Is that because there is an account for you in her books, and you don't need them?-I suppose so.
9771. When you want goods do you go to the shop and get them?-Yes, I get them from her.
9772. Does she attend in the shop?-I believe she does at times, but she does not keep the things there which she supplies to us. The things for the knitting come from Lerwick.
9773. She just enters these things against you in your account, and then she enters in your favour the shawls which you make, and she balances now and then?-Yes.
9774. How often do you settle your account with her?-Not often. I have not had a great deal of goods from her.
9775. Have you got any money at all from her for what you have knitted?-Yes; but I could not say how much, because I did not think of keeping an account of it.
9776. Will you knit £2 or £3 worth to her in the course of a year?-I did that when I was knitting for her, and perhaps it little more.
9777. How much of that would you get in money?-I would get it all from her if I asked it. I have got £2 a time from her.
9778. Was that for knitting, or for a shawl that you were selling?- It was for knitting.
9779. Did you want the money to pay your rent?-Yes, partly, and partly for other things.
9780. Do you know that Mrs. Spence always gives you goods for your knitting which she gets from Lerwick?-Yes, when I ask them; but when I ask for cash I get it.
9781. But you do not often ask for cash?-I have oftener asked cash from her than from any other person and she always gave it to me because she knew I could not do without it.
9782. Are you a finer knitter than ordinary?-Yes. I make very good articles.
9783. Do you sometimes knit a shawl for a special order?-Yes.
9784. Do you sometimes make a bargain then that you are to be paid in cash for it?-Yes.
9785. Do you think the price is less when you make bargain that you are to be paid in money than when you take it out in goods?- No, it is not less.
9786. Would you not sell a shawl for it less price if you knew you were to get it in money than if you knew you were only to be paid in goods?-I might have 1s. less, but not much less.
9787. Have you never got a line from Mrs. Spence, or from any shop here?-No. I have got no lines since the late Mrs. Dr. Edmonstone died. I knitted for her, and sometimes I got cash from her, and sometimes lines for goods on the shop.
9788. But that was some time ago?-Yes.
9789. Do you sometimes knit for John Johnston?-Yes. I get worsted from him to knit, and I take it back to him again. I have got 10s. from him for knitting a shawl of 27 scores: that is an ordinary size. I got none of that in money. I never asked it from him. He keeps a shop, and therefore I don't ask him for money.
9790. Then why do you ask Mrs. Spence for money? Is it because she does not keep a shop?-She only keeps soft goods.
9791. And you are not always wanting soft goods?-No.
9792. Do you do anything besides knitting?-I work at the harvest, and at other kinds of work. I have it very small farm of my own.
Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, Mrs. JANET ROBERTSON, examined.
9793. Are you in the habit of knitting?-Yes.
9794. Do you knit with your own worsted?-No; the worsted is given out to me.
9795. Who do you generally knit for?-Mrs. Spence.
9796. Do you do a great deal of fine work for her?-Yes.
9797. How do you receive payment?-In goods and money. I get money when I want it, but it is generally in goods. I get supplies in the shop upon a line which Mrs. Spence gives me. I take the line to the shop at once and get what goods or provisions I require.
9798. Does Mrs. Spence take the shawl from you and give you a line in her own house, which is beside the shop?-Yes.
9799. Then you go with the line into the shop and get what goods you want?-Yes. The line is addressed to Messrs. Spence & Co., and signed by her, and the which is due is written upon it.
9800. Is that always the way in which you are paid?-Yes.
9801. How often do you go with work to Mrs. Spence?-Perhaps once a month; just when my work is finished.
9802. Have you generally 15s. or 20s. to get?-Perhaps from 10s. to 12s.
9803. How much do you get for knitting a shawl of fine worsted?-The highest is 12s. There are thirty-three cuts of worsted given out to me for knitting a shawl of 30 scores. I think the price of the worsted is 3d. or 4d. a cut, but I never bought any myself.
9804. When you do not get provisions or groceries, but take soft goods for your knitting, do you go to the shop for them, or do you get them from Mrs. Spence herself?-I get them from the shop.
9805. Have you knitted for any person except Mrs. Spence?-I have done a little for John Johnston; but I am paid in the same way there, in goods.
9806. Do you get no lines there?-No.
9807. You just take the article to the shop and get the goods you want?-Yes.
9808. How do you manage when you are to pay your rent?-I have no rent to pay. I have a house of my own.
9809. Do you keep an account with any of the shops?-No.
9810. Do you always get your provisions from Spence & Co.'s at Haroldswick?-Yes.
9811. What do you pay for tea?-10d. and 1s. per quarter.
9812. What do you pay for your meal?-1s. 4d. a peck. It is 1s. 5d. just now.
9813. What do you pay for a half-loaf?-5d.
9814. Is that brought from Lerwick?-Yes.
9815. What do you pay for unbleached cotton?-10d.; but I have not bought it for some time back. There is some of it at 6d., but not of such a good quality. The cotton at 6d. is half-bleached. I bought that half-bleached cotton in summer, and I am sure I paid 6d. a yard for it.
Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, JOHN LAURENSON, examined.
9816. You are a fisherman at Burrafirth?-I am.
9817. You hold a bit of land there?-Yes, from Mr. Edmonstone of Buness.
9818. What rent do you pay?-£5.
9819. Are you bound to fish for any person in particular?- [Page 238] Not that I know of, but I fish for Spence & Co. I have fished for them since they commenced business, and before that to Mr. David Edmonstone, when he was carrying on business in that way.
9820. Have you fished for any other person in Unst?-Yes. I fished first for the late Mr. Thomas Edmonstone of Buness, and then for Mr. Samuel Hunter.
9821. Have you always been free to fish for any person you chose?-I don't think so. When I was a tenant to the late Mr. Edmonstone of Buness I fished for him, and when Mr. Hunter got a tack of the land I fished for him, but I could not tell exactly whether I was free to fish for any other person or not.
9822. You don't know what would have happened to you if you had sold your fish to anybody else?-I do not.
9823. But now you can fish for any person you please?-I believe I can.
9824. Is there any other person except Spence & Co. to whom you can sell your fish here?-There is no one in our quarter except Mr. John Johnston. He does a little in the fish way, but we don't sell any to him.
9825. Do most of the people hereabout fish for Spence & Co., and settle with them every winter?-Yes.
9826. Have you settled with them for last year?-Yes, I settled about 10th January at Haroldswick.
9827. Have you a pass-book?-No.
9828. Have you an account in their books?-Yes.
9829. Is that read over to you, or do you know the balance yourself?-It is read over on the day of settlement.
9830. Have you a note of the articles you have got?-No.
9831. Then how do you know that your account is correct?-I have never found anything wrong with regard to the articles which I had got, and I was quite satisfied they were all correct.
9832. Did you remember that you had got all the articles, and the price of them, when they were read over to you?-Yes.
9833. Did you order them?-Yes; I either got them myself or some member of my family brought them home.
9834. But are you sure that you can recollect perfectly well both the articles you got, and the quantities, and the prices?-Yes; when the account is read over to me I can.
9835. When you get a thing out of the shop, do you always know the price of it?-Yes.
9836. You ask the price, and you are told what it is at the time when you buy it?-Yes.
9837. Do you get all your supplies there?-Yes; unless perhaps a very little which we may buy from some other shop.
9838. Do you sometimes buy at Johnston's shop?-Yes, but very little.
9839. Do you pay for that at the time?-Yes.
9840. You have not an account with Johnston?-No.
9841. I suppose most of your neighbours have an account with Spence & Co. and get the most of their supplies from them?-Yes.
9842. Do none of them deal with other shops in the district?-I am not able to say what they do.
9843. What was the price of meal at Spence & Co.'s shop during the past year?-1s. 5d. per 8 lbs. I think it was the same price for almost the whole year. I rather think it was 1s. 4d. once, but I cannot say.
9844. Have you got meal from any other shop?-Yes, from Mr. Isbister. The price there was 1s. 4d.
9845. Did you pay for that in cash?-Yes.
9846. Was the meal of the same quality?-Yes.
9847. Do you buy any soft goods from Spence & Co.'s shop?- Yes, I buy white cotton for making oilskin clothes and shirts. We pay from 41/2d. to 8d., according to the quality of the cotton. It is generally unbleached cotton that we buy.
9848. Do you oil it and make it waterproof yourself?-Yes.
9849. Who do you pay your rent to?-To Spence & Co. They pay it to Mr. Edmonstone for me.
9850. Do you mean that it is put down in your account with them against you?-Yes.
9851. How do they pay it to Mr. Edmonstone?-In cash, I suppose; but I don't know anything about that.
9852. They don't give you a line to Mr. Edmonstone?-No.
9853. Do you get receipts for your rent?-Yes, if we ask for them.
9854. But you don't generally ask for them?-No.
9855. Have you generally a balance to get at the end of the year, or is the balance against you?-The balance is against me at present, and it has been against me since the first year of the company in consequence of bad fishings and bad crops.
9856. What boat hire do you pay?-£2, 14s. for the boat, or 9s. per man. I buy my own lines. I get them at fishing time, and they are marked into the account. The price is from 2s. 3d. to 3s. per line, according to the weight of the lines. I require ten ground lines and a line for a buoy rope.
9857. Does each man require that number?-Yes.
9858. Do you pay about 24s. for the ten lines?-Yes; and then we have to furnish these lines with smaller lines and hooks. If they are all new, the cost of lines and hooks will be about 30s. per man for what we call a weight of lines.
9859. How do you settle for them?-We settle for them along with all the rest of our accounts on the day of settlement. The whole account is read over and summed up together, and then the rent is brought forward, and the whole dealings put in. Our earnings are placed on the credit side of the page, and then balance is struck in our favour, or against us, as case may be.
9860. Are all the lines charged against you one year?-Yes.
9861. When you buy the lines at the beginning of the fishing season, there is no arrangement that the price of them is to be charged against, the next three years, and that you are to pay them by instalments?-No.
9862. Do you return the lines at the end of the season?-No; we keep them. They will perhaps serve for three seasons; or if the lines are really good, they may do for four.
9863. Then you will have nothing to pay for lines the second year if you have paid them up in the first year?-If we have paid them up we have nothing to pay afterwards.
9864. Do you usually manage to pay up your lines in the first year?-We generally pay what we can when we settle. What we have over from the fishing is just put to the payment of the whole that we are due.
9865. Are there any other fishing expenses excepting the boats and lines?-Yes; the hooks and tomes, or small lines, have always to be put in repair.
9866. Do you pay for them?-Yes; we buy the whole of them, and we repair the tomes and hooks ourselves.
9867. Then that is not an additional expense?-No.
9868. Do you ever get any cash advanced to you from Spence & Co.?-At times I get a few shillings.
9869. How long is it since you began to fish for them?-I have fished for Mr. Spence since 1857, and for Spence & Co. in 1868, 1869, 1870, and 1871.
9870. Have you ever got anything more than four shillings in cash?-No, not in cash.
9871. Have you any taxes or poor-rates to pay?-Yes; the poor-rates are charged by Mr. White, the inspector and collector, and they are paid in cash.
9872. Do you draw that from your account with the company, or how do you raise the cash for it?-I get a little cash from the company to pay my poor-rates.
9873. Do you sell any stock off your farm?-Yes, when I have a cow I sell it. I cannot sell one every year; I have not so many as that.
9874. Have you no other beasts but cows?-No.
[Page 239]
9875. Who did you sell your last cow to?-The last I sold to the company; it was a three-year-old quey. It was taken to the sale in May 1871, and I got 9s., which was put to my account. I got no money.
9876. Did you ever get money for any of the stock you have sold during the last five years?-No.
9877. Were they always put into your account?-Yes.
9878. Did you always sell them to Spence & Co.?-I sold them to Mr. David Edmonstone. I sold nothing to the company except that quey.
9879. Why did you sell them to Mr. Edmonstone?-They were put down towards my rent.
9880. Then you did not pay your rent at that time through Spence & Co.?-No; I was not fishing for them then. I sold a fat cow to Mr. David Edmonstone since I began to fish for Spence, to pay a balance which I was due him. These are all the cattle I have had to sell.
9881. Have you not sold any other stock except these two cattle for the last five or six years?-No.
9882. Is there any other way you have of getting money except by selling your stock and your fish?-No.
9883. Then you will not have much money passing through your hands?-No, very little.
9884. Will you have £1 in your hands in the course of a year?-I could hardly say, because I don't take particular note of how many twopences or sixpences pass through my hands.
9885. But will you have £1 at a time?-No; I have not had £1 at a time.
9886. Have you had 10s.?-Yes; I have had that.
9887. Do you sometimes sell your winter fish?-Yes.
9888. Do you get money for them?-Yes, if we ask it.
9889. Who do you sell them to?-To Spence & Co.
9890. Are you generally paid in money for your winter fish?-A little money and some goods.
9891. But these are settled for at the time?-They do not enter your account at all.
9892. Would you get the whole price of your winter fish in cash if you asked for it?-I believe I would; but I could not say, because I have never asked the whole of it in that way.
9893. Why have you never asked it?-Because I thought the goods were just the same from their shop as from any other place, and I did not think of asking them for money with which to go to any other place and purchase goods.
9894. Did you think you would not have got it all if you had asked for it in cash?-I cannot say, because I never did ask it; but I think I would have got it if I had asked them, so far as I know.
9895. Are you quite content to go on in this way without getting your money into your own hands?-I should like to get all my own money into my own hands if I could.
9896. You say you think you could have got the money for your winter fish if you had asked it?-I think I could.
9897. Then why did you not ask for it if you would like to have your money?-For the reason I have mentioned: that I thought the goods were the same in their shop as in any other place and therefore I did not ask it.
9898. Then why do you want the money?-Because if I had the money, I would perhaps buy my goods somewhere else, if I thought I could get them cheaper or better.
9899. Have you any fault to find with the quality of the goods you get at their shop?-Sometimes I think the meal is not very good. Flour was sometimes 1s. 3d., and it was not very good.
9900. Did you ever try any other flour?-Yes; I got a little from other places. It was not very much that I could buy, but I got flour at other shops which was of superior quality.
9901. What did you pay for it?-About 1s. 4d or 1s. 5d.
9902. Then that was it little dearer than the flour you got at the company's shop?-Yes; I got it at Mr. Johnston's.
9903. Would you not have got as good flour at the company's shop if you had paid a higher price for it?-Yes; they had good flour at 1s. 6d.
9904. But you cannot complain of them giving you a worse quality of flour at a lower price?-No.
9905. Was the meal the same as you get at any place for the same sum?-It was 1d. per peck higher last summer.
9906. And you said it was not quite so good as you would like?- That was the flour.
9907. I thought you said so about the meal also?-There were some weeks when the meal was really good, and some weeks when it was not so good.
9908. How did you get the money with which to purchase flour at Johnston's?-We sold a few eggs or a little butter, and got it in that way.
9909. You did not pay for it in money, but in eggs or butter?- Yes.
9910. Is that it common way of selling your eggs and butter?- Yes.
9911. You do not get money for them?-No.
9912. Why did you not take the eggs and butter to Spence & Co.'s shop?-Because we sometimes thought of trying another place.
9913. Why did you not take your money for the winter fishing and buy your provisions at another place if you thought you could get them better?-Our earnings from it were very small; and for all the money we had to get, it was not worth while to take it from Spence & Co.'s shop and go to any other place with it, even although we might have got our goods it little cheaper. I think all my winter fishing only came to about 30s.
9914. How far do you live from the company's shop?-Nearly two miles.
9915. Is Johnston's shop nearer to you?-Very little.
9916. Is there any other shop nearer?-No.
9917. Have you ever been asked to fish for any other person than Spence & Co. since they began business?-No.
Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, MAGNUS HENDERSON, examined.
9918. You are a proprietor near Haroldswick?-Yes, a small proprietor.
9919. You have been resident in Unst all your life?-Yes.
9920. You were at one time engaged in the fishing yourself, and you know the system that is practised here?-Yes, so far.
9921. I presume the system of annual settlements has been one of long continuance here?-Yes.
9922. The fishermen have also for a long time combined the calling of farming with that of fishing?-Yes.
9923. They fish for about four months in the year, and are engaged on their farms for the rest of the time?-Yes.
9924. How has the rent been usually paid to the landlord during the last twenty or thirty years?-Very often the tenants have fished for the landlord; and of course at the end of the year, when their accounts were made up, the rent was taken into account along with other matters.
9925. When they did not fish for their landlord, has there been any arrangement between the landlord and the fish-merchant for the payment of the rent?-Yes. In some cases, I suppose, the fish-curers are bound to pay the rent to the landlord for the tenants who fish for them.
9926. Are you aware whether there has been a written arrangement of that kind between the landlord and the fish-merchants?-I am not aware of that.
[Page 240]
9927. Of course, when the fish-merchant happens to be the tacksman, that is it different case?-It is.
9928. But where the fish-merchant is not the tacksman, is it the practice that he generally settles with the landlord for the rent?-I think so, or he becomes accountable to the landlord for the amount of the rent.
9929. Do you know whether the rent has been paid by means of lines handed to the fishermen or tenants, or whether the merchant just hands a cheque to the landlord for the amount of rent due by all the fishermen?-I am not prepared to answer that.
9930. Has it been it universal practice in Unst, or anything like a universal practice, for fishermen to deal at the shops kept by the landlord or merchant for whom they fished?-That has generally been the practice.
9931. Is there any understanding that they shall go to that shop for their supplies?-There is such an understanding, but they are not compelled to do so. Of course if a man is in debt, and has no means with which to go to another shop, he is very thankful to get his supplies from the merchant, and he has to get them on credit.
9932. And when he gets them on credit, the merchant is safe to get paid by the fish if the men deliver their fish to him?-He gives them credit, and he must take his chance of being paid when the fish are delivered.
9933. I suppose a fisherman here does not wish very often to change his residence and his place of fishing?-Not very often.
9934. But if he did happen to do so would not the fact of him having an account with the merchant in the place prevent him from shifting his quarters?-I don't know that it would.
9935. He might have an account standing against him here, and would he not be bound to pay it?-Yes. He ought to pay it before he shifted to another employer.
9936. And the merchant might raise an action against him if he were to remove?-Yes, and if he could not pay his debt.
9937. Is that it thing of frequent occurrence?-No.
9938. Do you think that men are prevented from shifting to other places, by the fact that they are in debt?-I don't know that they are. I have not known any case of that within my own experience.
9939. Have you known cases where a man wanted to engage with another merchant in the island, or in the neighbouring islands, and who was unable to do so in consequence of being in debt to his former employer?-No such case has come under my notice.
9940. Do you know whether it is usual, when a man does engage with a new employer in that way, that the new employer takes over and becomes responsible for any debt that has been standing in the former employer's books?-They very often do that, but I don't know if it is a general rule.
9941. Have you known cases of that sort occurring?-Yes.
9942. Pretty often?-Not very often, but I have known of some.
9943. Is that done at the request of the fishermen, or is it an arrangement between the merchants?-I should think it was arranged partly with the fishermen and partly with the merchants.
9944. You think the fisherman has no objection to it?-No.
9945. Do you think the condition and the character of the fishermen in this district would be improved if cash payments were the rule instead of these long settlements?-I could not say. I have no doubt some would manage their affairs better if there were cash payments, but some would manage them worse. There are differences in the character of the men here, as everywhere else.
9946. Do you not think that relying on the merchant for supplies if a bad season comes, makes these fishermen a little more careless in running up accounts?-In [som]e cases it does.
9947. They feel that the merchant is anxious to employ them, and that if a bad season comes, and their debt is not beyond all bounds, they are safe to get supplies for the season?-Yes; perhaps some of them look too much to that.
9948. Is it a common complaint that the fishermen do not know the price they are to get for their fish until the end of the season?- Yes, they do not generally make any arrangement for the price before then.
9949. Do you think that is a reasonable complaint?-I don't know. I think that if the thing is conducted on just principles it is a good thing for both parties, because the fishermen have the same chance of being, benefited by a rising market as the merchant; but it been a general thing to make no arrangement as to price until the fish are sold.
9950. Have you known any cases in which the price has been fixed at the beginning of the season?-I cannot say that I have known any particular case of that kind.
9951. Do you think the fishermen would agree to an arrangement fixing the price at the beginning of the season?-I think some of them would; but perhaps some of them would rather allow it to continue in the old way.
9952. Do you think they would not like to fish for so much weekly wages, and so much additional at the end of the season according to the market price?-I don't think they would. I think they would be better satisfied to be paid in proportion to the amount of fish they catch.
9953. Would it be possible to pay them in proportion to the amount of fish they catch, and also to pay them at shorter times?- It would be possible enough to do it, if they came to an agreement as to the price per cwt. for green fish. If that were done, it would be at the option of the fish-curers and the fishermen to make an arrangement for paying at shorter periods.
9954. If they got their money in hand in that way, do you not think that would lead them to be more independent than they are at present?-It ought to do.
9955. Don't you think the settlement with the fishermen is delayed too long after the fishing season is over?-I have no doubt it is delayed long enough; but perhaps sometimes it is a long time before the merchants get paid for their fish, and that may prevent them from making the settlement earlier.
9956. Do you mean that the settlement is delayed until the merchant realizes the price of his fish?-I understand that is very often the case.
9957. So that, in that view, the merchant is really to some extent trading on the fishermen's capital?-Yes, while it is in his possession; but very often he has not a long time of it, because I understand he generally sells his fish on credit, and it is some time before he is paid.
9958. But a man who sells upon credit in that way requires some capital to enable him to carry on his business?-Yes.
9959. And in this case it is really the fishermen's capital that is being traded upon; that is to say, the fisherman has not received payment for his fish, and that money which he ought to have received for his fish is in the hands of the merchant?-But very often a fisherman has taken up the amount of his fishing before the settlement.
9960. He may have done so in goods?-Yes.
9961. Is that the case with most of them?-It is the case with a good many, and some of them perhaps have overdrawn their account.
9962. Then in that case the merchant is really advancing the price of the fish in goods beforehand?-Yes.
9963. Would it not be as easy for the merchant, and better for the fishermen to make the same advance to them in the course of the season in cash?-I suppose so.
9964. Only the merchant has a profit on the goods under the present system?-Of course he has.
9965. And in that case the merchant gets his upon the goods, but the fisherman gets no interest on [Page 241] the money which he lies out of until settlement?-Of course not.
9966. Therefore the merchant has the benefit both of the interest on the fishermen's capital in his hand, and, in addition to that, the profit upon the goods furnished to the fishermen?-Yes.
9967. And besides that, he is safe not to lose upon the transactions of the year, not having the price fixed until his sales are realized?-Yes. The only chance by which a merchant sometimes loses is, that he advances a man further than the man's earnings can meet.
9968. But he can do that or not, as he pleases?-Of course; but there are sometimes cases where the fisherman requires a certain amount of supplies. He cannot do without them, and if the fishing is short then he is not able to meet them.
9969. Does it not strike you as being rather a one-sided transaction, the fisherman gets no interest on his capital, which is in the merchant's hands in the shape of the price of his fish?-It is not very long there.
9970. It is there for four or five months, and in the meantime the merchant is making a profit on the goods?-If the merchant could turn over the fish when he gets them he might be able to pay the men at once, but there is generally a long time between the time when the fisherman delivers his fish and when they are brought to market and the money paid. The fish take a long time to cure, and the summer is often done before much of the fish can be sent to market. Then the merchant generally sells at two or three months' credit to the buyer, and it is that time before he can realize his money.
9971. Do you know whether the merchants in Unst are in the habit of dealing much in stock?-I don't know; there is generally a sale once a year for the cattle, and any one who wishes to go to the sale is at liberty to go. If any one wishes to dispose of his stock privately to any one else, he is quite at liberty to do so.
9972. Who are the largest purchasers at the sales?-I cannot say, for I have not been always there.
9973. Who conducts them?-An auctioneer from Lerwick, Mr. Henry.
9974. Do you think a ready-money system would be any improvement as regards the fishermen?-I think it would. In fact a ready-money system in anything would be an improvement over barter: at least it ought to be, but whether it would or not I cannot say.
9975. Do you think that, in point of fact, the present system is one of barter?-Yes.
9976. I suppose very little money passes into the hands of the fishermen in the course of the year?-There is sometimes a good deal. If a fisherman has money to get he always gets it, so far as I am aware.
9977. That is to say, if he has a balance at the end of the year he will get that?-Yes; and I presume that if a man has not a balance he cannot well ask for anything.
Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, ALEXANDER SANDISON, examined.
9978. You are one of the partners of the firm of Spence & Co., and you have been so since the formation of the company in 1868?- Yes.
9979. Formerly you carried on business in your own name?-Yes, in company with Messrs. Hay & Co. of Lerwick, at Uyea Sound.
9980. Was that a separate partnership from Messrs. Hay & Co.?- Yes. I was manager there, and had a share of the business. It was entirely distinct from their Lerwick business.
9981. In 1868 you entered into partnership with some other gentlemen who had been carrying on a similar business in the island of Unst?-Yes.
9982. And at that time, I understand, you took a lease from Major Cameron of all his property in the island?-Almost the whole of it. There was some of it on lease before, which we don't have.
9983. You have all his property, exclusive of the large farms held on lease before?-Yes. We had two or three small farms let to us on lease as well.
9984. Was that arrangement with Major Cameron embodied in a written lease?-Yes.
9985. Have you got it here?-No. We have a copy of it at Baltasound.
9986. By the terms of that lease, I understand there was no obligation upon the tenants to fish for your firm?-No.
9987. And it was intimated to them at the time that they were at perfect liberty to deliver their fish to any person?-I don't know if it was intimated to them specially at the time; but I think Mr. Walker told them so at one time when we wished him to meet the tenants both in the north and south end of the island.
9988. What was the occasion of that meeting?-Just to explain to them the nature of the improvements, and the connection between us as the tenants and them as the sub-tenants.
9989. The tenants under that lease pay their rents to you directly?-Yes.
9990. And they have no concern with the proprietor?-None.
9991. You are responsible for the rent stipulated by you to be paid?-Yes; for rent, poor-rates, and taxes affecting the tenant.
9992. It is part of your arrangement with the landlord that you shall superintend, and endeavour to get the tenants to carry out certain improvements upon the estate?-Yes; we are bound under the lease to carry out certain improvements.
9993. And a division of the lands has also taken place under that arrangement?-Yes.
9994. Have you proceeded with these improvements to a considerable extent?-Yes. We have got on remarkably well with them; better than I expected when we first took it on. It has been a very uphill job.
9995. Do you find that that improved system of farming is compatible with the men continuing the occupation of fishermen?-I think it is, on the small farms, because the fisherman has a very great deal of spare time in winter, which in former times he did not profitably employ, and he can do it now on his farm to great advantage.
9996. Do you think it would not be possible in Shetland for the men to follow the occupation of fishermen all the year round?-I have given that subject most earnest thought. At one time I thought it might, but latterly I have come to the conclusion that it is not possible. In the first place, we have no fresh fish market here, and it is impossible to get the fish into the south market in a fresh state when they would command a high price. Then, in the winter time the weather is so broken, and the seas round this coast so boisterous, that it is almost impossible to go to the deep sea in boats; and the fish that are caught near the shores in the sounds and bays are in such limited quantity that they would not be nearly sufficient to meet the man's daily wants. From the farm, however, he has sufficient potatoes and milk for his family; and even on the smallest farms he has, I should say, six months meal on the average.
9997. But if the fishermen were supplied with a different kind of boats, such as are used in other parts of Scotland, say of 32 feet keel, such as are used at Wick, could they not go to sea in winter?-I am afraid our fishermen would not take very kindly to these boats.
9998. Perhaps not at first, but would they not do so after a certain period of apprenticeship?-I think I would back six of our men against six of the Wick men in their respective boats, and I would expect our men to come on shore when the Wick men would be drowned. I think the Wick boats are much too heavy in a sea, and they are much more in danger of filling than our light skiffs are. I remember on one occasion, on the north of Unst, when some of our boats were out, and a gentleman's yacht was near them dredging shells, he thought they could never come ashore, and kindly ran down among them, thinking to render the assistance [Page 242] but when he reached them he found they were far drier than he was. He came in with some of his bulwarks washed away, while they got safe ashore.
9999. Don't you think the weather is just as severe where these Wick and Buckie boats fish as it is in this quarter?-I believe it is as severe, but I don't know if the tides and currents are as rapid and strong, because they have a longer stretch of coast. Off any land end, the current is very strong and the sea runs very high, and I think that nearly three-fourths of all the accidents that have occurred in Shetland have occurred in crossing these springs of tide,-strong currents going right against the wind, just inland, as off the point of Unst, or the point of Sumburgh. It is not on the ocean that our boats would be lost, but in taking the land and crossing the tides near headlands.
10,000. If it were not for these dangerous tide-ways, would it be possible for the men to go off to the haaf in winter if they had proper boats for the purpose?-They could go off a certain distance, but the day is very short here, and I don't think they would have much chance with the long lines in a day of about eight hours.
10,001. Has any attempt been made to introduce an extensive system of winter fishing here?-I don't think any attempt has ever been made, except in the spring on the west side at Scalloway and east at Fetlar, where there are spawning beds apparently for the ling. They come nearer into the land there in March and April, and some attempts have been made at these places with our ordinary boats.
10,002. But these are partial attempts, and have not been continued?-They are conducted every year, but some years they are very unsuccessful.
10,003. In settling with your fishermen, I understand you settle with them at the different stations, at Uyea Sound, Baltasound, and Haroldswick, quite separately?-At Uyea Sound the settlements are quite distinct; at Baltasound and Haroldswick they are combined. Some crews are settled for at Haroldswick, but there is only one set of books at Baltasound.
10,004. Can you give me a general idea from recollection, to what extent your fishermen are settled with in goods in the course of the year? Will it be to the extent of one-fourth or one half of their earnings?-Some men may take out not one-fourth, some may take one-fourth, some a half, and some more than the whole.
10,005. Have you ever thought of striking an average?-I have looked into my cash books several times in past years, and when I have summed up the amount of green fish received at the price agreed on and paid, I found that, as a general rule, at settling time I paid in cash, either in rent, which is cash, or cash given into the hands of the fishermen, fully two-thirds of the entire amount of fish coming into my hands.
10,006. Do you think it would be possible to introduce any system by which the settlement should not be made at such long intervals?-I have considered the matter seriously since the Truck Commission was first spoken about, and I have come to the settled conviction that it would be very much for the curer to pay monthly in cash.
10,007. Would that payment be according to the quantity of fish delivered, or by way of wages, or partially both?-There are two reasons why I think wages would not do. In the first place, the fishermen would not like to take wages, because if they make a good fishing they would not get so much as they do now; and, in the second place, I am sorry to say that with the greater part of them, if they got wages they would not fish half so much.
10,008. Then what system would you suggest?-I think the right system is just to fix a price at the beginning of the year of so much per cwt. for green fish, and pay it monthly or fortnightly in cash as may be agreed upon.
10,009. Do you think it likely from your experience, that the fishermen would agree to that?-Two years ago in North Yell, when I settled with the fishermen there, I urged the men to take cash payments, because we had no store there, and it was an inconvenience for us to send goods. We had to employ a man and pay him, which cost us something; but I found that they all declined my proposal. In the same year, 1870, I tried to engage our fishermen in the south of Unst and in Yell at a fixed price, and I did so. Every fisherman who went out in the south end of Unst and Yell that year was engaged at 7s, per cwt. I made that bargain in December in writing; but when settling time came we could afford to pay them 7s. 3d., and I did so, according to the previous practice. I might have pocketed £30 by that transaction, but if I had done so the fishermen would have thought I had treated them dishonestly.
10,010. Were they going to grumble?-I have no doubt some of them would have grumbled if they had not got the additional price. I would not say that all of them would have grumbled, because there are some of our fishermen who are very intelligent and very reasonable men, and who would have understood the thing, and said that a bargain was a bargain.
10,011. Did you pay down the 7s. 3d. in consequence of any representation made by them?-No; I did it quite spontaneously.
10,012. Then it was you who did not stick to the bargain?-It was; I improved the bargain for them.
10,013. Suppose it had been the other way, what would have taken place?-I would not have asked the fishermen to agree to take a less price. No doubt there are fishermen who have been in my employ for many years, who, if they knew I was losing by the fish, would not have asked the money; but others would take all they could get, whether it paid me or not.
10,014. But, upon the whole, you think that if that system were introduced by a large firm, there is reasonable prospect of it being carried out?-So far as the fish-curer is concerned, there would be a certain profit to him.
10,015. But do you think it would be practicable so far as both fishermen and fish-curer are concerned?-I think it would pauperize a number of the fishermen because there are a great number of them in debt, and in the transition from the one system to the other they would require to pay up their debts, so far as their means would go, and their dealings would be less.
10,016. Do you think the fishermen under that new system would not be able to get credit to a certain extent?-I don't see how some of them could. For instance, take the year 1869. In 1868 the fishings were almost a failure. Our total catch in Unst and Yell amounted £1607, which could not average much over £4, 10s. to each fisherman. That year we imported meal and flour to the amount of £1824, cost price per invoice; we paid in cash for rents to Major Cameron, Mr. Edmonstone, Lord Zetland, and others, £1600; and we expended on fishing-boats and fish-curing materials £780,-being a gross amount of outlay of £4223 against the fishing, the return for which, as said, was only £1607.
10,017. Does that return apply to your establishment at Uyea Sound only?-It applies to our entire business in Unst and Yell.
10,018. Besides £1607 from fish, have you any idea what income the fishermen would receive that year from other sources, such as for sales of stock?-Yes. We can produce the rolls of cattle sales, which show what cattle were sold in the spring; and we would have a good idea what amount of fat cattle were sold in the rest of the year.
10,019. In whose custody are these sale rolls?-We have them; we conduct the sales. Then, in the year 1869 the crops were lost, which made 1870 a very trying year on this island, and more especially to Spence & Co. We imported that year about £2300 worth of meal and oatseed, and £173 of potatoes; and we paid the same amount of cash in rents.
10,020. Were these importations distributed among the fishermen and others at your different shops in the island?-Yes, among the fishermen; but we had to supply many who were not fishermen, or see them starving around us.
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10,021. That importation of meal, and the sale of it on credit, would, I presume, leave the bulk of the fishermen considerably in debt?-That year it would; except those who had saved some money.
10,022. But with those who were in debt, that further credit would have the effect of leaving them much more in debt than they were before?-Of course; very much more.
10,023. Is that now in the course of being paid off?-Yes; it is coming back to us very fast, in consequence of more successful fishings and better crops.
10,024. Do you not consider that the necessity under which you lay of importing the meal, and advancing it upon credit to the fishermen, was the result of the system, which has been prevailing here, of long settlements, and the undue amount of credit which has been allowed to the men?-I have here a letter which I wrote in 1860, and which represents my views on that subject, and I may as well read an extract from it 'If we don't give unlimited advances, we are told the fishermen will be taken from us. I have now been nearly twelve months in this place (that was after I came first to Uyea), and have closely watched the system pursued by proprietors and others, and certainly agree with you that it is it bad one; but I know I have no right to make any remarks or trouble you with my views on that subject, further than to state that I cannot see any good that will result from burdening the tenants with debt to the fish-curers. It has been my desire, ever since I knew anything about Shetland tenantry, to see them raised in the social scale, and made thoroughly independent, both of proprietors, fish-curers, and others, and I have felt deeply interested in the — properties, no doubt from being more in contact with them; but when the poor among them are in terror of the proprietors alike, and bound by forced advances to different fish-curers, alas for liberty! and more offered to any fish-curer who will advance more on them. This is not calculated to raise any tenant in self-respect.'
10,025. You speak in that letter of 'forced advances:' what were these?-What I meant by that was this: the proprietor's ground officer or agent in the island, for the time being, told the tenant that he might fish for me this year. I found that he had only £2 or £3 to get, and the ground officer told that tenant that if he did not go to me and get an advance for his rent, he would take him from me and give him to any other man who would advance the rent. That looked very like forced advances.