11,945. Are more than one half of them commonly behind?-No. There are more than one half of them who always have money to get.
11,946. Still there are some of them who are usually a good bit behind?-Yes; but I hope they will get and be able to pay it off. Some of them are men whose [Page 294] sons are willing now to pay for their fathers, and it is a great matter to see that.
11,947. The debts you refer to have been incurred for supplies of hooks and lines, and meal and other things required for the family?-Yes; chiefly for meal. Of course, they get hooks and lines also but they require a great deal of bread and meal.
11,948. Do those men who fish for you own their own boats, or do the boats belong to you?-The boats are all their own.
11,949. Are you not a boat-owner?-Not with these men.
11,950. Have you some boats here?-Yes; I had too many, and got very little profit from them.
11,951. The boats you had at Scalloway were hired out by you?- Yes; it got the name of hire, but I never received it. The nominal hire is 5s. per man. If it carries three men it is 15s. and if four men, £1. That is for three or four months in the year.
11,952. These are small boats?-Yes.
11,953. Is that the kind of boat that is commonly in use in Scalloway?-Yes.
11,954. Are there none of the six-oared boats in use here?-There are none in use here just now. Even in summer it is the small boats that are used here. They fish near the shore and the small boats are more handy than the big ones.
11,955. Then there is no haaf fishing from Scalloway?-No.
11,956. Are all the fish that you cure, the produce of that inshore fishing?-No; I have vessels that go to Faroe.
11,957. But you have no deep-sea fishing for ling?-No. I should not say that I never get the hire, because in some few cases I have got a little for it.
11,958. Then is it the case that you must look to the profit you make from the fish for the only remuneration you get for the use of these boats?-It would have been better for me if I had bought few or no fish in Scalloway, because the people here cannot get so much as will keep them alive. As has already been stated, the men in Scalloway are old men, who are not able to fish much.
11,959. How many tons of fish did you sell from that part of your fishing last year?-I am not able to answer that exactly just now, but there are commonly from 20 to 25 tons that come from Dunrossness.
11,960. And as much from Scalloway?-No; all that are got here is a mere trifle, and then we buy some in winter and spring from different quarters.
11,961. Do you also buy some in summer from other places too?- A few lots, not much.
11,962. Do the Burra men come and sell you a few lots in summer?-As little as possible.
11,963. Do you not like to buy from them?-I don't like to see men leaving their masters. My men might do the same.
11,964. I suppose your men do sell to other people's factors occasionally?-I don't think there are many men among them who don't do that.
11,965. Is it when they want a little ready money that they do that?-They can get it from me when they ask for it.
11,966. Perhaps, if a man is a little in your debt, he will not care to come and ask you for ready money?-There are men who are due me £5 and £10 and £15, and I just pay him for his fish over the counter when he brings them.
11,967. That is for the winter and spring fishing?-Yes. I would be happy if he could make as much from his fish as would keep him alive, but the worst of it is that these men cannot do that.
11,968. When you pay them money over the counter for their fish, do they generally pay some of it over the counter for supplies?- Yes; if they can buy articles as cheap from me as from another, they always do that. I have seldom seen them do anything else; but if they want a little money for any particular purpose, they can get it for that purpose.
11,969. They may need it for rent, and they will perhaps take it away to pay to their landlord?-That is not very often the case. If they have a house from another proprietor I very often have to pay the rent for them.
11,970. Do you lay out a good deal of money in that way?-Rather too much.
11,971. Do you sometimes pay other debts that are due by the men as well as their rent?-I suppose most of their debts are with me, except their rents.
11,972. Therefore most of their money matters are transacted through you?-I think so.
11,973. In fact, you are a sort of banker for the place?-I don't know that; it is very little that I get to bank.
11,974. When a man is well to do and has a balance to receive, does he sometimes leave it in your hands?-If they thought I was ill off for money they would do that. One year I lost about £200 on the price of ling, and rather than see me ill off for money one and another of them who had money came and offered it to me.
11,975. Do you mean that they left what was due to them on their fishing in your hands?-Yes; and they offered me besides money which they had laid up in former years, if it could do me any good and keep me going on.
11,976. Do you not think the men would be much wiser to take their own money and spend it as they wanted? Would they not understand the value of the money better in that way, and take better care of it?-They take their money at the end of every season.
11,977. But in the meantime they have spent perhaps three-fourths or four-fifths of all their earnings?-Of course they have been lifting their lines and hooks and everything of that sort, but they have never wanted money when they asked for it, even although they had nothing in my hands. Sometimes they asked for it to buy a cow or some particular thing, and they sometimes got as much from me as £4 or £5.
11,978. But you don't give it to them unless they want something particular, and mention to you what it is?-No.
11,979. Do you think it is a good system for men to leave all their affairs in your hands?-I don't know; I did not want them to do so unless they liked.
11,980. Would not the merchant require to be a very honest man when he is so much trusted?-He would indeed.
11,981. And a man who was disposed to deceive the fishermen who trusted him would have very ample opportunities to do so?- He would.
11,982. I suppose that has been done in a few exceptional cases in Shetland?-No doubt it has.
11,983. Do you think a fisherman who lives under that system is an independent person?-A man who has plenty of money to serve his purpose is as independent a man, or he should be, as any.
11,984. Do you think the fishermen have plenty of money to serve their purposes?-Not in general; but there are a few who have it.
11,985. Do you think they might all have it?-I don't think so.
11,986. Is that owing to bad seasons, or owing to a bad system, or what?-It is sometimes owing to all these things together.
11,987. I suppose all the men you employ, and some others besides, keep accounts in your books for the supplies which they require for their families and for the fishing?-Yes.
11,988. Each man has a ledger account?-Yes.
11,989. And although you are out of the business, you are still intimately acquainted with the way in which it is conducted?- Yes.
11,990. Do you think that one half of the men at this settlement have a balance to get in money?-I think most of the ling fishermen had, but the cod fishermen were much more in debt.
11,991. You had not many ling fishermen?-No, only a few boats.
11,992. It is the Dunrossness men you speak of as the ling fishermen?-Yes.
11,993. The Scalloway men are not ling fishermen?-No. I think there was only one boat that went from Scalloway.
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11,994. Is the business still carried on in your name?-No; it is carried on in the name of Nicholson & Co.
11,995. Have you any interest in it at all?-No.
11,996. It is practically the same business, however, which you carried on?-Yes.
11,997. When you carried on business, were you in the practice of buying hosiery?-Very little. I never took it at all, except when the poor people were starving and in want of bread. They sometimes came to me and said they wanted bread, and could not get it in Lerwick, and I gave it to them.
11,998. Have you taken the goods they have got for their hosiery in Lerwick and given them provisions instead?-Not very often, but I have done that out of compassion.
11,999. Have you sometimes given them money in that way?-I would not have seen them at a loss for a shilling if they wanted it for any particular purpose.
12,000. Have you sometimes taken their lines from them which they got from the Lerwick merchants?-No; I don't remember doing that.
12,001. Have you been asked to do that sometimes?-I don't think so.
12,002. Have you not been asked to give them provisions for lines?-No.
12,003 Was it mostly cotton and soft goods or tea that you took from them?-It was cotton and soft goods, not tea. They had a chance of getting a little meal and potatoes in country places for their tea, and they did not require to come to me with it.
12,004. What kind of price did you allow them for these things?- I allowed them the same price as I sold such articles at in my own shop; but they had paid a higher price for them in Lerwick. When they brought the goods to me, I saw they were not equal to mine at the same price.
12,005. So that you generally buy these cottons at a lower price than they have been charged at in Lerwick, but at the same price that you were in the habit of selling them for here?-Yes.
12,006. The knitters therefore would be losers nominally by the bargain?-Yes; but it was not much that they brought to me in that way-it was hardly worth mentioning.
12,007. What would be the difference in price on a yard of cotton?-Perhaps 1d.
12,008. Did you find that there was always that difference?-I don't exactly remember; but I remember sometimes looking at the articles, and seeing that they were inferior to mine at the same price. That was very easily seen.
12,009. Do the women sometimes object to give you the goods at a lower price than they had paid for them?-No. It was through necessity they came to me with them, and they always felt very grateful that they could get bread in exchange.
12,010. Has that system gone on at times until now?-Yes, at times.
12,011. You have some vessels employed in the Faroe fishing?- Yes, there are two.
12,012. Are these still in your hands, or have you handed them over to the company?-I have handed them over to the company, as agents.
12,013. But they are still your property?-Yes; at least they are partly mine. There are some other people who have shares in them.
12,014. Do the men who are employed in these Faroe vessels generally belong to Scalloway and the neighbourhood?-No; only a few of them. The others come from different parts of the country; some from as far west as Sandness, and others from as far north as Delting, and so on.
12,015. Have these men accounts opened in your shop for their outfits?-Yes.
12,016. And also for supplies to their families?-The young men don't require supplies.
12,017. But if there are any of them married men, they will have accounts, and their families get supplies from the company's shop during their absence?-Yes.
12,018. Then there is a settlement with them at the end of the season?-Yes. As soon as we can know what the fish are to bring in the market there is settlement made.
12,019. Have you a written agreement with these men?-Yes; it is written on stamped paper and each man signs it.
12,020. Have you made your agreements for 1872?-They are written and are being filled up now.
Scalloway, January 22, 1872, DAVID DALGLEISH, examined.
12,021. You are now a partner of the firm of Nicholson & Co., Scalloway?-I am.
12,022. You have been present and heard the evidence of Mr. Charles Nicholson?-Yes.
12,023. Have you anything to add to it, or anything additional to suggest?-No. He has had long experience in the business, and I have had very little. I have only been in it twelve months, since Mr. Nicholson retired.
12,024. You have been shown certain returns with regard both to the home and Faroe fishing, which you have been asked to fill up and return to me. You will do so at your earliest convenience, with the assistance of Mr. Nicholson if necessary?-Yes.
12,025. I see a number of fishermen present; if there are any of them who wish to make any statement to me I shall be glad to hear them. [No answer.] If no one wishes to give any further evidence, I adjourn the sittings at this place until further notice.
GEORGE GEORGESON, examined.
12,026. You are a merchant at Bayhall, in the parish of Walls?-I am.
12,027. How long have you been in business there?-I have been in business in Walls for about twenty-seven years. My place of business is in the village in the centre of the parish.
12,028. Are your customers principally of the class of fishermen and tenants?-They are mostly fishermen and farmers. The greater part of my business is in ready money transactions.
12,029. Are there some farmers there who do not go to the fishing?-There are some small crofters, but they all go to the fishing. These parties are not confined to me in the business they do. They can go where they choose. I supply them, and they pay me once a year.
12,030. Are you engaged in the fish-curing business yourself to any extent?-I do not cure fish now. At one time, about twenty or twenty-five years ago, I cured fish, and had some small vessels, but I don't do anything in that way now at all.
12,031. You say your transactions are mostly for ready money?- Yes, mostly.
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12,032. But I suppose you have some accounts when you have a customer that you can trust?-Yes.
12,033. And with him, as you said, you settle every year?-Yes.
12,034. Are there many of these accounts in your business?- There may be some hundreds of them; I cannot say how many.
12,035. Does not every one of your customers open an account in that way?-Not every one; perhaps not above one-third of them.
12,036. You have an annual settlement with them?-When we get an annual settlement, we consider that to be very good. Sometimes it does not come up to that; but we would like it every three months if possible.
12,037. Are many of your transactions settled by means of barter?-Not many.
12,038. In what way is that system of barter carried on with you? Is it by the purchase of eggs and other produce?-Yes; eggs are looked upon as money. We make no difference upon the price of our goods whether they are paid for in eggs or money. With regard to hosiery, our trade is a mere nothing. I think would cover all that I buy in the year.
12,039. Do you pay for hosiery in cash at all?-No.
12,040. I suppose the system that prevails with you is very much the same as that which exists in Lerwick?-It is not the same as in that town at all. The difference is, that we do not manufacture goods to order. We merely buy them when they are offered to us, if they please us. I don't think there is any other difference.
12,041. Is the price you fix for the hosiery generally such as to allow you a profit upon the sale of it?-It is not; sometimes we really pay more for it than we get.
12,042. But do you sometimes look for a profit upon it?-If we look for a profit we don't get it out of the hosiery. If we have a profit, it must be upon the goods that are given in exchange for it, because we often sell hosiery below its value, according to its value here.
12,043. But I suppose you sell it below its real value only in consequence of some change in the market, or some miscalculation?-Perhaps that is the case; but, in point of fact, we don't buy hosiery as a trade. We are forced to buy it. We don't care for that trade at all, because we always lose by it.
12,044. In fixing the price to be given for the hosiery goods, don't you endeavour to make it at such a figure as will at least keep you safe, and possibly allow you a small profit on the hosiery itself?-I cannot say that we do. We are forced to take the hosiery as a matter of business. We don't deal in that at all, so to speak.
12,045. But don't you endeavour to fix the price at such a figure as would allow you a profit?-Of course we do, so far as we can; but in many cases we sell the hosiery goods below what we paid for them.
12,046. Do you sell them in Lerwick, or send them south?-We send them to Scotland. We don't sell them in Lerwick at all.
12,047. In what other departments of your business does a barter system prevail?-I may say that, except in eggs and hosiery, our trade is principally for cash and we deal in barter for eggs because we look upon them as being the same as money.
12,048. Do you give the full price for eggs?-Yes.
12,049. Do you pay for them principally in tea?-In anything the people want. It is all the same to us. If they want cash, and we pay a few shillings in cash, then we pay a halfpenny less per dozen for the eggs; but that is all the difference we make otherwise we treat them the same as cash.
12,050. Do you purchase a considerable quantity of eggs in that way?-I cannot state the amount exactly.
12,051. Do you send a box south by every steamer?-Yes, and sometimes more than that in the season. Perhaps we send a couple of boxes in the season when they are being brought in.
12,052. Do you send 10 or 20 dozen?-More than that. We can put, perhaps, from 70 to 100 dozen in a box, and we may have two such boxes a week in the season.
12,053. And these, as a rule, are all paid for in goods?-Yes.
12,054. At what time of the year do you generally get your accounts settled?-The fishermen settle their accounts generally about November or December.
12,055. Is that after having settled with the fishcurers?-Yes. I supply the men with what they want through the season until that time, and then they settle. Most of the men who deal with me cure their own fish, and sell them the best way they can.
12,056. Is it a common thing in your district for the fishermen to cure their own fish?-Yes; they have liberty to do that.
12,057. To whom are the sales of these fish made?-They sell them anywhere they choose. Sometimes they send them south, but principally they sell them to Garriock & Co. The men are rather confined in that way. They don't have exactly their free will to sell them, unless merely a little.
12,058. Do you mean that they have not their free will to sell their fish where they like?-They have that way; but where a proprietor is dealing in fish, the men are generally expected to sell to him.
12,059. Are Messrs. Garriock & Co. factors for some of the proprietors there?-Yes. They are factors for the estate of Dr. Scott of Melby.
12,060. Do the men look upon themselves as being bound?-They are not really bound. They have a little liberty.
12,061. But they think they ought to sell their fish to Garriock & Co. rather than to another?-Yes, that is what is understood, but they are not really bound.
12,062. In what way have you observed that feeling among the men, that they ought to sell to Garriock & Co.? Do they sometimes speak of it to you?-If Garriock & Co. offered them the same price as other merchants, they consider they ought to give them the preference; that is the only way in which I have seen it.
12,063. Would they sell to Garriock & Co. if they were offered a less price?-I don't think they would.
12,064. They would be independent enough not to agree to that?- I think so. But there is a confusion there. I could not enter into explanations upon that point fully.
12,065. Why?-Because I don't think it is necessary.
12,066. But that is just the very point I want to know about. What have you to say with regard to it?-I know that sometimes, if I were offering the same price as Garriock & Co., I would not get the fish from the men.
12,067. Have you tried that recently?-I have.
12,068. Were you willing to resume the business of buying fish?- Certainly.
12,069. But the competition of Garriock & Co. was too much for you?-Not the competition, because I offered the same price, and perhaps even more, and could not get them.
12,070. Do you mean that Garriock & Co. had such an advantage over you, from their position as factors and proprietors in the district, that you could not venture to compete with them?-Yes, I ventured, and I could not get the fish.
12,071. Was that the reason why you gave up the fish-buying originally?-No, that was not the reason. I had some small vessels, and they were unsuccessful, and I just dropped out from the business.
12,072. But you think that the buying of the fish from the fishermen might be more remunerative lately than it was before?-I could not say about that; but the fishermen had the liberty to cure their own fish if they had liked, and then they sold them dry.
12,073. Was it dry fish that you proposed to purchase?-Yes. It was dry fish that I made the offer to buy, but we would not get them even if we had given the same price as Garriock & Co., or more.
12,074. How long is it since you offered to buy the dry fish?- Perhaps 4 or 5 years ago.
12,075. In what way did you make your intention known: did you offer to certain fishermen at that time [Page 297] to take their fish?-Yes. I have sometimes offered them to buy their fish, but I never could get them to sell them to me.
12,075. [sic] Do you remember any particular men to whom you made that offer?-I could not mention any particular man; but I have offered to several crews to buy their fish, and they would not sell them.
12,076. Do you remember what skippers you offered to?-If it is necessary to give names, I would rather do so in private. [Hands in the name of one skipper and crew.]
12,077. Do you remember any others?-I might mention several, but I don't think it is necessary.
12,078. What answers did they give to your offer?-I sometimes offered the currency, or above the currency, but that did not matter: I could not get their fish.
12,079. Did they decline to entertain your offer?-Yes.
12,080. What did they say was their reason?-They considered themselves as a sort of tied down to sell to one; but I know they were not tied down, and that they could have sold their fish to any one they chose.
12,081. But they did say to you that they were tied down?-They did.
12,082. Was it through a fear of disobliging the factor that they refused to sell their fish?-I suppose so. Perhaps they thought that if they required a favour again, they might not get it so easily if they made a change.
12,083. If the favour they expected was in the way of an advance, would they not have got that from you?-Yes, at any time, either in money or in goods.
12,084. What other favour could they expect from the factor?- From the fact of Messrs. Garriock & Co. being factors, they had more power than I had with regard to the men.
12,085. Did the men express any fear of being turned out of their holdings?-They did not.
12,086. But that may have been in their minds?-Perhaps it might.
12,087. Did you ever hear of any influence being used by Garriock & Co. to secure the fish of these men or of other men?-I cannot say that they used any undue influence; but, of course, it was an understood thing that they had the first chance, and the only chance of them. Where Messrs. Garriock cure the fish, of course they have the fish to themselves; but where they do not cure them, it is considered that they shall have the first chance of buying the fish.
12,088. Where they cure, of course, there is an engagement with the men at the beginning of the season?-No. That was the case about 30 years ago but it is not so now.
12,089. But in the ling fishing the crews are all engaged in the beginning of the season?-Yes; but there is no price fixed at the beginning of the season. About 30 years ago that was the case and there was some more competition.
12,090. Was it the case 30 years ago that the price was fixed at the beginning of the season?-Yes, there was a price fixed, and sometimes agreements were written on paper for the ling fishing, but that practice fell away. Sometimes the fishermen got above the real value of the fish under that system.
12,091. Do you know whether that system existed only in your part of the island?-No, it existed all over Shetland more or less unless where the factors had control over the fishermen. At that time every man who had his freedom could sell his fish to the best bidder.
12,092. But he can do so still, only the price is now fixed according to the current rate at the end of the season?-He cannot do so exactly in every place in Shetland. The price is not understood to be known until the fish are sold, which, I think, makes the fishermen scarcely so persevering in fishing as they were when they did know the price. I think when the price was fixed at the beginning of the season, they persevered even more than they do now.
12,093. Was that system given up before you ceased to be in the business?-No, it continued after that. The thing which made the price to be fixed at the beginning was, that other buyers than the native buyers came into the market, and there was more competition.
12,094. Was there much more competition at that time than there is now?-In buying fish green there was more competition, but now the competition is very little.
12,095. How do you account for that?-Where factors have the power, it is understood that the men must fish either to the factor or the proprietor.
12,096. Do you think the factors have more power now than they had in those times?-I rather think they have in some cases.
12,097. In those times was it not the rule that the fishermen were always bound to deliver the fish to the proprietor, or to some one appointed by him?-It was.
12,098. So that, in that case, there could not be competition?- There were several people who had the chance of buying the fish at that time; but, of course, they could not get their summer fish. They might get fish during the spring season in small quantities, but that was all.
12,099. I thought you were speaking with reference to the summer fishing, when you said that in those times there was a great deal of competition, and that the price was fixed at the beginning of the season?-Yes; that was the case about thirty years ago but within the last twenty years it has fallen away.
12,100. But even at the time you speak of, were not the fishermen very frequently bound to deliver their fish to the proprietors or their factors, or tacksmen?-They were bound in some places, but not so much in our part of the country as elsewhere.
12,101. The men were not so much bound in the district that you speak of when the price was fixed at the beginning of the season?-The price was fixed in many cases, but not in all.
12,102. Then the fish in those times were bought from the fishermen green?-Yes.
12,103. And it was the price for green fish that was so fixed?- Yes. The proprietor never fixed the price. It would only be fixed by a buyer or it merchant.
12,104. Do you think it would be advantageous to return to that practice of fixing the price at the beginning of the season for green fish?-Where fish are bought green, I think it would.
12,105. Would it not be better for all parties if the fish were always bought green, and cured by a professional curer?-I don't think it would. There are some of the fishermen who can cure the fish as well as any professional curer.
12,106. Are the fishermen in your neighbourhood generally supplied with vats and other implements for curing fish?-Most of them who cure for themselves have implements of their own. They only require their supplies, such as lines, and salt, and food from the merchant.
12,107. I suppose these independent fishermen who cure their own fish, frequently take their lines and salt and materials for curing from you?-They get them anywhere they choose. They have much more liberty in that way in our parish than, I think, they have in any part of Shetland.
12,108. Would you say that curing by the men themselves is practised to it greater extent in your parish than anywhere else in Shetland?-Much more. Since the men began to cure their own fish they have got on well, and they have got much out of debt, and become more independent.
12,109. When did they begin to cure their fish?-It is about fifteen or sixteen years since it came to be practised to any extent; but there are it good many of them who do not cure their own fish yet. I should say there are about one half of them who sell their fish green.
12,110. Do those who sell their fish green engage at the beginning of the season with Garriock & Co.?-They sell their fish to them. They do not have any price stated at the beginning, but are settled with according to the current price at the end of the season.
12,111. Do you find that the men who are so engaged to sell their fish according to the current price at the end of the season, are less frequent customers at your [Page 298] shop than those who cure their own fish?-Yes; that must be a consequence.
12,112. Why?-Because it is understood that their supplies must come from the place where their goods are going. They are a sort of bound; they are not independent; but if they were curing for themselves, then they would have their freedom to go anywhere they chose.
12,113. Do you mean that the men who are paid according to the current price at the end of the season want to get their supplies on credit?-Of course they must get their supplies on credit at the place where they are giving the proceeds of their work.
12,114. Is there any other reason why they deal with the fish-curer for their supplies? Does a man who has money in his hand go to the fish-curer by preference for his supplies, as well as a man who has not?-Some men would go there even although they had the money, and get an advance on credit.
12,115. Do the men think it an advantage to get their supplies on credit?-Some men do, even although they paid a higher price for them.
12,116. And they might at the same time have money in the bank?-Yes.
12,117. Do you think that is a common notion among the men?- No, I don't think it is a common notion.
12,118. Are the men who act in that way men to whom you would yourself give credit?-Yes. I have sometimes given them credit for their supplies, such as salt and lines, and anything they wanted.
12,119. Would you consider yourself safe in giving them credit, even if they were engaged to deliver their green fish to Messrs. Garriock & Co.?-No. I would not like to deal with the men who sell their green fish, because I would run the risk of not getting my money from them.
12,120. But you say the men will take advances from the curer during the summer, even although they are quite able to pay for what they are getting?-Some men will do so from their natural disposition; but, as a rule, if the skipper goes to a certain place for his supplies, it is considered that his men must go there too.
12,121. How is that?-The skipper, of course, has some control over his crew on shore as well as at sea.
12,122. Do you think the skipper sometimes advises or persuades his men to go to a particular shop?-He might; I cannot say that he would not, but that is not known to me.
12,123. Do you suppose there is any understanding that it is part of the skipper's duty to guide his men to the right shop?-I don't think the skipper is tempted in any way to do that. I don't know that he derives any benefit from it. There may be a premium given to a skipper for being the best fisher; but I don't think the skippers are tampered with to control their crews as to the shops where they are to deal.
12,124. Who has the appointment of the skipper?-The crew may choose a man for themselves.
12,125. Have you noticed, as a rule, that the skippers deal at the fish merchant's shop more commonly than the men?-No. I think there is no difference in that way, so far as I have seen.
12,126. Then the only reason you can suggest for men who sell their green fish dealing at the shop of the curer, is because there is a sort of understanding among them that they shall take their supplies there?-Yes. In fact, they would not get them anywhere else because they could not get the money to pay for them. The man who buys the fish has the first chance of the men's money; while we who don't buy the fish have only a second or a third chance of being paid. We would not care to supply men in that way, because we don't consider ourselves safe.
12,127. But in giving supplies to the men who cure their own fish, you think you have some security?-Certainly.
12,128. What is that security?-The men are more independent, and if they sell their fish south, they are sure to get their money at the time.
12,129. But you told me that these men are under some kind of obligation to sell their fish to Garriock & Co.?-There is some understanding of that kind, but they are not bound.
12,130. They always give them the preference?-Yes.
12,131. And you have been unable to buy their fish from them?- Yes. Even if I were to offer a somewhat higher price, I know that I would not get them.
12,132. If that is the state of matters with them, then you have not much more security for your advances in their case than in the case of the other men?-I have security. There is no fear for them.
12,133. May they not be taking supplies all the season from the merchant's shop?-We have a good chance of knowing where they get their supplies; and men like that, who are independent, are not likely to run away with the money when they get paid for their fish. They are safe enough to pay their accounts.
12,134. Then your reliance is very much on the character of the men themselves?-Certainly.
12,135. Do you find that the men who cure their own fish are of a more reliable character, and more to be depended upon, than the others?-Generally they are, and they are more persevering.
12,136. I suppose Messrs. Garriock & Co. know pretty well what men deal at your shop, and what men deal at their own?-I think they do.
12,137. Have you ever obtained from them, or through them, payment of any accounts that have been run up by men at your shop?-No. I would not like to apply to them for that. I think they would rather pay the money to the men themselves.
12,138. Do the men who deal with you upon accounts generally keep pass-books?-Some of them do.
12,139. Do you find any irregularity or difficulty in settling their accounts, in consequence of the want of pass-books?-I find none; but, of course, if a man understands accounts, and keeps a pass-book, I find it more agreeable to settle with him. The more ignorant a man is, the more trouble you have in settling with him.
12,140. Are there any other buyers of dried fish in that district than Garriock & Co.?-There is no other person who buys them in large quantities.
12,141. There may be small buyers, but I suppose they don't have much chance in the circumstances you have already described?- No; they don't have a chance.
12,142. How do these small buyers get any fish all?-There are very few who buy dried fish, and who have the chance of getting much. They might get few tons in some years, but not as a regular thing.
12,143. Is there any public-house in the parish of Walls?-No.
12,144. Or any one who has a grocer's licence?-No, there has not been one for some years.
12,145. You don't hold a grocer's licence for the sale of spirits?- No.
12,146. Where do people in that parish get their supplies of liquor?-There are two licensed houses in the next parish of Sandsting-one at Tresta, and one the Bridge of Walls, on the Sandsting side.
12,147. Have the people to go there for all their supplies of that kind?-Yes.
12,148. I believe they are a very temperate people?-I think they are.
12,149. Have you ever been asked to purchase second-hand goods in small quantities by your neighbours, by people coming from a distance?-No.
12,150. Have you not been asked to buy small packet of tea across the counter?-Never.
12,151. Do you know whether the people in your district sometimes get their supplies of tea from those who have got the tea in exchange for hosiery in Lerwick?-No; there is no practice of that kind among us.
12,152. If it happens, it will be an exceptional thing so far as you know?-I never knew any case of the kind.
12,153. When you were engaged in the fish business yourself, were you ever asked to advance the rent of any fisherman from whom you had bought fish?-I might sometimes advance money to a fisherman to help [Page 299] him to pay his rent, but I cannot say that I was ever pressed either by a factor or a landlord on that point.
12,154. When you gave that advance, it was given directly to the fisherman?-Yes, and voluntarily.
12,155. Do you ever make money advances now for that purpose, or for any other purpose, to your customers who have accounts with you?-I have not done so within the last two or three years; in fact, most of the men don't need it; they can get on without it.
12,156. The accounts incurred to you, and which are settled for at the end of the year, are paid in cash, I suppose, for the most part?-Yes, in cash.
12,157. The only things you get in part payment, and which are entered on the other side of the account, are eggs and sometimes butter?-There is not much butter. The greater part of my trade is done in cash.
12,158. But eggs and hosiery may sometimes be entered in the account?-Not much hosiery. I don't do much in that way.
12,159. You said it might amount to £50, but the transactions, I suppose, are settled at the time?-Yes. In some years I do not do the half of that, but would cover my transactions in that way in any year. I remember some years ago buying three or four times as much, but now the knitters all go to Lerwick with their work.
12,160. What hosiery you do buy is all settled for at the time?- Yes, it is paid right off there and then. The articles are offered to us, and if we are satisfied with the quality and the price we take them, the same as in any other money transaction.
12,161. Do the accounts which you settle at November or December generally amount to some pounds apiece?-Yes; with those fishermen to whom we have advanced.
12,162. Are these accounts generally paid in cash which the men have got from Messrs. Garriock & Co. for the sale of their fish to them?-Yes.
12,163. I suppose you take good care to bring as many of your accounts as possible to settlement immediately after the settling time with Garriock & Co.?-Yes; that is our usual practice.
Lerwick, January 24, 1872, JOHN TWATT, examined.
12,164. You are a merchant at Voe, in the parish of Walls?-I am.
12,165. How far is that from Bayhall?-About five minutes' walk.
12,166. Have you heard the evidence of Mr. Georgeson?-I have.
12,167. Is your business much of the same description as his?- It is exactly the same. There is no difference between them whatever.
12,168. It is conducted with the same class of customers?- Exactly.
12,169. Are your settlements made at the same season?-Yes.
12,170. Have you ever been in the fish-curing business yourself?- Yes. For the last two years I have done little in the winter season. I get no fish in summer.
12,171. Do you buy the fish green?-Yes; in winter.
12,172. Are you ready to buy them cured if you could get them?- Yes. I have often offered for fish, but I never could get them. I have made the offer publicly to all the boats.
12,173. In what way did you intimate that offer publicly?-I just said to the men that I would buy their fish, and give as high a price for them as another. I have said that if I did not give them 10s. more, I would not give them 10s. less; but I could not get them.
12,174. What did they say?-They said nothing, but they never gave me the fish.
12,175. Did you mean by the offer you made to them that you would give them a price fixed at the beginning of the season?- No; I could not fix a price then. I meant that I would give them as much as any other fish-buyer who was in the trade.
12,176. Did you mean that you would give them that price at the end of the season when they delivered their cured fish?-yes.
12,177. Did you make a special offer to any particular crews?-I have said to some of the men to tell their skippers what I had offered. The skipper was not in at the time, but I told one of the men that I would give him 10s. more than any other one if he would give me his fish.
12,178. Have you reason to believe that the man carried your message to the skipper?-Yes; I know he did carry it.
12,179. Did you get any answer to it?-No.
12,180. Then how did you know that the man had carried your message to the skipper?-Because I asked the skipper afterwards about it; and he said he had been engaged at the beginning of the season to deliver his fish to another party.
12,181. Were these fish to be cured by himself?-Yes.
12,182. Are contracts made so early as that with men who cure their own fish?-In some cases they are.
12,183. Was the other party in this case Messrs. Garriock & Co.?-I don't think it was. I would rather mention the name privately. [Hands in the name of a fish-curing firm.]
12,184. Are these gentlemen you have named extensive purchasers of cured fish in your district?-I believe they would buy all they could get.
12,185. Perhaps they have the same difficulty which you experience in buying fish?-I suppose they have.
12,186. Do you carry on any business with men who are engaged to fish in the ling fishing for Messrs. Garriock & Co.?-Yes. I supply the crews with what they require for the fishing, such as lines, and hooks, and tar.
12,187. Are they not expected to take their supplies from the shop of the merchant with whom they engage?-Sometimes it is much handier for them to get them from me than to go to Reawick for them; and when I know the crew will pay me, I supply them to them.
12,188. Your shop is at a great distance from Reawick, or any of the larger fishing stations?-Yes.
12,189. Do you make these supplies to the men to a large extent?-No, not to a large extent; only to a few boats. It is only to the crews that I make these supplies, because the company accounts are paid first at the time of settlement, and I look to the skipper to see that I am paid.
12,190. Then a company account of that kind is a safer thing than an account with one of the men?-Yes.
12,191. Do the fishermen themselves, as individuals, get supplies from you on credit while they are engaged in the ling fishing?- Yes.
12,192. Do they not go more frequently to Reawick, or to Messrs. Garriock & Co.'s other stores, for supplies?-Yes. There are certain parties that I won't give them to.
12,193. Do you furnish the principal part of the supplies to those men in your neighbourhood who fish for Garriock & Co.?-No. Garriock & Co. do that themselves. It is only when they cannot get over to Garriock a Co.'s stores, or when Garriock & Co. might be out of any article they want, or something like that, that they come to me. They only come to me for what they want when they cannot do better.
12,194. Is it the case that some of them come to you for supplies because Reawick is so far away?-Sometimes that is the case in the busy season. When the fishing is going on they are glad to go to the nearest place, and get a few lines or hooks, or what they want but when they do go to Reawick they take as much from there as possible.
12,195. Are they expected to do so?-I rather think they are.
12,196. Do you understand that from the men themselves, or is it merely your own inference from the way in which they act?-It is my own opinion.
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12,197. Have you heard anything from the men which has confirmed that opinion?-No, I could not say that I have.
12,198. Do you find that the connection of the fishermen with a large company of that kind, which buys their fish, and which acts as factor upon the estates where the fishermen live, interferes with the extension of your own business?-I cannot say that it does.
12,199. Have you not told me already that you have not been able to buy fish from the men, although you wanted to do so?-Yes; it interferes with me in that way, so that I cannot get the fish.
12,200. But you don't suppose the men would deal at your shop, in preference to the shop of the merchant who employs them, even although they could do so?-If they were fishing to me, I believe they would deal with me the same as with any other one. I cannot quite agree with what Mr. Georgeson said about that. I think there is a little bribe which the skippers get for seeing that the men go to the shop. I think it is an understood thing between the skipper and the fishbuyer, that he (the skipper) is to get something extra.
12,201. Does not the skipper usually get a fee?-No; he is generally supposed to get the same as the men, but I rather think he gets a little more.
12,202. You say that that serves as a bribe: for what purpose?-I leave that to you.
12,203. Do you suppose it has the effect of making him influence the men to take their supplies from the merchant's shop?-I leave that to you to judge.
12,204. Do you suppose that the skipper, in general, does guide his men in that direction?-I rather think he does in some cases.
12,205. Have you known any special instance that you could point to, where that was done?-There was one boat's crew with whom I was settling for a small company account. I asked them why they did not give me their fish as we were next-door neighbours, or something like that; and the men all got up against the skipper, and said they were quite willing to give me their fish, only that the skipper had gone away and made an agreement for them before.
12,206. That was for the sale of their fish?-Yes, for the sale of the dry fish. I would have bought them at the same price as Garriock & Co, or any other one.
12,207. But that was not a case in which the men were induced to go for supplies to the fish-curer?-They did not require to go there for their supplies unless they had liked, because they could have got their supplies from me if they had said they would give me their fish at the end of the season. If they had done that I was willing to supply them with money, or meal, or anything they wanted.
12,208. These were men who were curing their own fish?-Yes.
12,209. But have you known any cases in which men who were engaged to fish during the whole season, and to deliver their fish green to Garriock & Co., were induced by the skipper to go to Reawick for their supplies?-I cannot say that I have.
12,210. Is it not the fact that men who live near you do go to Reawick for supplies although it is much farther away?-Yes.
12,211. And although it is inconvenient?-Yes, it is inconvenient. They could do much better by coming to my shop, which is next door to them, and they could get as good articles at the same price as they can at Reawick.
12,212. How far is it from your place to Reawick?-I think it is about 10 or 12 miles.
12,213. When the men go there for meal or other supplies, are these supplies brought across the country?-Sometimes they are brought by boats and sometimes round by the rocks.
12,214. When a crew cure their own fish, is it the rule that the sale must be of the whole catch of the boat, or can each man sell his fish separately?-No, they must all be sold together; and they generally go to the place where the skipper or the majority of the men want them to go.
12,215. Do you think the skipper has a considerable influence in that matter?-I think he has.
12,216. Of course, where the men are fishing independently, and curing their own fish, there is no arrangement with the merchant for the skipper's fee?-No; that is an understood thing between the skipper and the fish-buyer, and I don't think the men know anything at all about it. There is no fee at the ling fishing, and the men can go to whom they please. They are different there from what they are in the Faroe fishing.
12,217. Do you buy any hosiery?-I buy it little, and I pay for it in the same way which Mr. Georgeson explained. It is all done by barter.
12,218. Do you also pay for eggs and butter by goods?-Yes.
Lerwick, January 24, 1872, JOHN JOHNSTON, examined.
12,219. You are a merchant at Bridge of Walls, in Sandsting?-I am.
12,220. You are a son of Mr. George Johnston, merchant at Tresta?-Yes.
12,221. Is that in the same parish, but at some distance from your place?-Yes; I think it is about eight miles away.
12,222. Your father is in delicate health, and has not been able to come to-day?-Yes. He has not been able to come in consequence of the rough day.
12,223. Were you concerned in his business before you set up business on your own account?-Yes.
12,224. You are acquainted with his business at Tresta as well as with your own?-Yes.
12,225. Have you heard the evidence which has been given by Mr. Georgeson to-day?-Yes.
12,226. Is your business and that of your father similar in character to Mr. Georgeson's?-Yes, it is just the same only we have a spirit licence in addition. My father has a public-house licence, and I have a grocer's licence.
12,227. Then you supply what spirits may be wanted in the parishes of Walls and Sandsting?-Yes. I suppose we supply the principal part of them; but the people may go to Lerwick or any other place for them if they choose.
12,228. Your dealings in that way, I suppose, are always settled for in cash?-Yes, always in cash.
12,229. Is the bulk of your other transactions paid for in cash too?-No; there is a good deal of credit given.
12,230. To what class of customers do you give credit?-To the fishermen.
12,231. Have you any fishermen who are employed in your own boats?-We have no boats fishing to us.
12,232. Do you buy cured fish or green fish from the fishermen?- No, we don't buy any. My father has one vessel of his own that goes to the Faroe fishing. He had three about five or six years ago.
12,233. Where do you get the men for these Faroe vessels?-They are very much scattered. Sometimes, we get part from Walls, and sometimes part from Sandsting.
12,234. Do these men take supplies for themselves and their families during the summer from your father's shops?-Yes.
12,235. And they have an account which is settled at the end of the fishing season?-Yes.
12,236. Do you buy no fish at all?-No. My father has an interest in two boats that fish on the home banks off Shetland. That is the cod fishing; they don't go to the Faroe fishing. They are smacks, but they are small.
12,237. That bank is between Shetland and Orkney?-Yes.
12,238. Exclusive of the men who are engaged in the Faroe fishing, have you or your father many accounts with fishermen living in the district?-Not very [Page 301] many. We have some, but they are principally with men who go south, and we supply their families during the time they are away. They go principally to Liverpool, and sometimes to Greenock, and enter the merchant service. They remain away for a year or two, and then come home for a winter.
12,239. Do these men send allotment notes home to their wives?- Not often. They generally remit money home at the end of the voyage.
12,240. Then you have no security at all for your advances, except the personal credit of the men?-None at all.
12,241. There may be some stock on their farms occasionally?- Of course they have a little.
12,242. Have you any accounts with fishermen on the ling fishing at home?-Not many. There is no ling fishing carried on close to where I live.
12,243. But a few of your neighbours are engaged in it?-No. I think there are none of them engaged in it.
12,244. Is it the same with your father's place?-Yes; there is no ling fishing there at all.
12,245. Have you any accounts with fishermen engaged in the Faroe fishing for other merchants than yourselves?-We have some, but not many.
12,246. I suppose these Faroe men generally open accounts with the merchants in whose smacks they are engaged?-Yes, generally.
12,247. Have you anything to say in addition to what was stated by Mr. Georgeson and Mr. Twatt in their evidence?-The only thing I would like to say is, that I think all the men have complete liberty to engage anywhere they choose, or to go to the fishing or south as they like. I don't think any compulsion is used.
12,248. I don't think any of the previous witnesses said there was any compulsion in that way. Have you ever endeavoured to purchase cured fish?-No.
12,249. Why? Did you never think of it?-No.
12,250. Was that because you considered you would have no chance of getting the fish to buy?-I could hardly say that; but I never thought much about it.
Lerwick, January 24, 1872, ARCHIBALD ABERNETHY, examined.
12,251. Are you a shopkeeper at Whiteness, in the parish of Tingwall?-I am.
12,252. In what goods do you deal?-Principally in eggs and butter.
12,253. Do you deal in groceries and a little in soft goods?-Yes.
12,254. Do you pay for eggs and butter generally in goods?-Yes, generally; but I very often pay money for eggs too.
12,255. Do you make a difference on the price, according as they are paid for in money or in goods?-Yes; there is a difference of 1/2d. per dozen, as a general rule.
12,256. Have you ever bought fish?-Yes, a little.
12,257. Do you buy them dry or green?-I buy them green, and cure them myself.
12,258. Do you own any boats?-No. Occasionally I may hire a boat and a crew for a month or two about this season of the year for the spring fishing, before they go to Faroe.
12,259. Do you fix the price of your fish at the time they are delivered, or do you settle with the men for them according to the price at the end of the season?-They will scarcely agree to fix a price at the time they are delivered, in case the price of fish may rise during the year, and then they expect to get a better price for them. They prefer to wait until the fish go to the market, and then they know what the price is.
12,260. Is that what is done when you buy the fish green?-Yes.
12,261. In that case, you settle with them according to the current price at the end of the year?-Yes. I generally guarantee to give them that price.
12,262. I thought you said you had only one boat for a short time at this season?-I sometimes have one or two boats for a short time at this season, and that is generally the agreement I make with them.
12,263. Don't you buy the fish promiscuously, as it were, from any man who comes and offers them to you?-Yes.
12,264. Do you do that only in the winter and spring, or also in the summer?-It is only in the winter and spring that I have the chance of doing it. There are scarcely any fish got in our quarter in the summer time, because the fishermen are generally engaged in the Faroe fishing then.
12,265. Are none of them engaged in the ling fishing?-None at all.
12,266. Do you keep accounts for supplies that you make to fishermen?-Yes, a few.
12,267. Are these men engaged in the Faroe or the ling fishing?- Principally in the Faroe fishing.
12,268. Do any of these men get their whole supplies from you?- None of them. I think they are generally supplied from the shops of the owners of the vessels they are in.
12,269. Do they get the most of their supplies from there?-I think so.
12,270. Do these men live near your shop, or are they living at a distance from you?-They live pretty near me. Some of them are near neighbours, and others live about three or four miles away.
12,271. How many men of that kind may there be who deal occasionally with you, but who get the bulk of their supplies from the parties for whom they are fishing?-I should fancy there may be about forty or fifty of them.
12,272. Have most of these men got accounts?-Generally they have, but not to a great extent; perhaps for a few shillings.
12,273. You understand they are supplied chiefly by the merchant for whom they ship?-Yes, generally.
12,274. Would it not be more convenient for them to get their supplies nearer their own homes?-I don't know that it would make much difference. It is not very far from our place to Lerwick. I think it is only about eight or nine miles, and the people generally are in the town every now and again with hosiery and things of that kind.
12,275. Who are the merchants with whom most of the men engage for the Faroe fishing?-I think the principal parties are Mr. Leask, and Messrs. Hay & and Messrs. Harrison & Sons.
12,276. Do the people generally carry home their meal and provisions from Lerwick when they buy meal there?-A good deal of it comes in that way; but it is a very common thing, when the men are going to Faroe, for them to bring the smack round to Whiteness and leave a boll or two of meal at their houses there before they go away.
12,277. What prices do you pay for the fish caught in spring and winter?-From 6s. 6d. to 7s. We are paying 7s. just now for cod. There are very few ling caught.
12,278 What is the price for the small fish?-It is 4s. 6d. for the smallest and then there are different prices from that upwards until we come to the big size.
12,279. What quantity of fish will you get in that way from a boat's crew in the course of a winter and spring?-I really don't know. I don't get them all. They may come to me with a few cwts. perhaps, and perhaps go to Scalloway or anywhere else with the rest. They are quite at liberty during the winter, so far as I know, to go anywhere they like where they can get the best price. When they come to me they generally take what goods they want, and if there is a balance over they usually get it in cash.
12,280. When they come with fish in that way, I suppose you generally ask them what they want after fixing the price?-They know the price before they come with them, and they generally want some things out of the shop. If they do not, then they get the cash.
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12,281. Do you weigh the fish?-Yes, we weigh them in presence of the men.
12,282. Is not the first thing you do after that to see what goods the people want?-Very seldom. I just ask them if they are wanting any goods, and then they buy them; but they sometimes take the whole price in money, and sometimes they settle previous accounts with fish which they bring in that way. In winter that is generally the way in which they settle their accounts with me.
12,283. Are the accounts which the men run up in summer generally settled by the sale of their winter fish?-Yes; that is the way in which the thing is done in our quarter.
12,284. How many tons of dry fish would you be able to sell from that kind of trade?-Perhaps three or four tons, or the like of that. It is not carried on to any great extent.
12,285. Do you sell these fish at what is called the current price?-No; I just take my chance. I get them dried perhaps in April or May, and send them south.
12,286. Can you sell them earlier than the large fish sales of the year?-Yes. The spring fish are all dry by April or May.
12,287. Is the price of cured fish generally higher early in the season than it is in September, when the large sales take place?-I don't know; the price is very fluctuating.
12,288. Are you aware that the current price this year for ling was £23 per ton?-Yes; but I am not aware of that price having been paid for any of the small fish such as I am speaking of.
12,289. What did you manage to sell your fish for last year?-I sent them principally to Leith, and I got about £16 per ton for them on an average, after deducting expenses. I do not know the price at which the fish were actually sold, but that is what I realized. I sent them to an agent in Leith, and that was my return.
12,290. Do you suppose that any of the men that you bought fish from would get as much as £5 from you in the course of the winter and spring for their fish?-I don't think they would.
12,291. Might one crew get as much as that?-Yes, more than that; or if they were going to the spring fishing also, they would get perhaps £4 or £5 each man for the big cod. I paid more than that per man last year, when they had been both at the winter and spring fishing.
12,292. I suppose most of that would be settled for by the men taking the goods?-No; I think three-fourths of it would be settled for in cash. That would not be so in every case; but in some cases more than three-fourths would be paid in cash.
Lerwick, January 24, 1872, LEWIS F.U. GARRIOCK, examined.
12,293. You are a partner of the firm of Garriock & Co., general merchants and fish-curers at Reawick?-I am.
12,294. You have prepared a statement which you wish to appear as part of your evidence?-Yes.