13,237. Are the whole supplies to Fair Isle furnished by Mr. Bruce?-He generally furnishes what is ordered by the factor.
13,238. Do you know whether the factor has instructions to prevent any one else from trading with the inhabitants?-I don't think he has very positive instructions on the subject, because he could not prevent it. Mr. Bruce and I were there this year, and at that time two vessels came to trade. We saw them there, but could not prevent them. One pretty large sloop came down from Westray, belonging to a man called Luggie; and Rendall came also and traded during the whole night when I was asleep. We did not know that he was doing anything until he was under weigh, and when the vessel was off we saw that he had half-a-dozen cattle on board. Rendall goes from house to house [Page 328] on the island, and trades with the people just like a hawker.
13,239. Are the inhabitants prohibited from selling their cattle to Rendall, or to any other outside trader?-I think they were made aware that Mr. Bruce wanted the preference of the cattle from people who were in debt; but it is generally those individuals who are in debt who try to slip off their cattle in that way when they have a beast to dispose of. The people who are well to do on the island give Mr. Bruce the preference willingly.
13,240. Do you purchase cattle for Mr. Bruce?-Merely in the way of business. He was in the south when the public sales took place this year, and I and his grieve did purchase a few beasts for him. Our only object in doing so was to keep up the sales, so that the tenants might get a better price for their cattle.
13,241. Like other merchants in Shetland, does Mr. Bruce purchase a number of cattle for re-sale?-No: he never drives a trade of that kind. He has four cattle sales in the year, and he buys his cattle generally at these sales: which have been the means of keeping up the price of cattle in this end of the country ever since he began them.
13,242. Are cattle frequently taken by Mr. Bruce in liquidation of a debt due by a tenant?-Those tenants who are in debt, and who have cattle, are generally requested to bring them to a public sale.
13,243. When a man is in arrear, is he asked to do that?-Yes, when he has a beast to dispose of. These are Mr. Bruce's instructions.
13,244. Do you recollect one Thomas Wilson in Fair Isle being forbidden to sell a cow to Rendall?-The factor may have forbidden him, but, so far as I know, neither Mr. Bruce nor I did so.
13,245. Did you know of a cow of Thomas Wilson's being brought over and sold here for £4, 1s.?-Yes. I remember that transaction quite well, for he wanted me to buy the cow for Mr. Bruce; but I thought as he had come out of the island with her himself, the best way to give him a fair chance of selling his cow was to allow him to take her to the public sale and put her up to auction. He said he had had an offer of £5, 10s. from Rendall, but I said I did not think the animal was worth it.
13,246. Do you think he was really offered £5, 10s.?-It was £4, 10s. he said he was offered, and Mr. Bruce of Vinsgarth bought the cow for £4, 1s. at the sale.
13,247. Then he only lost 9s. by not taking Rendall's offer?-Yes; and I only had his own word for it, that he had been offered that.
13,248. Are you quite sure it was not £5, 10s. that Wilson said he had been offered?-Yes, I am sure it was £4, 10s.
13,249. Did she not look like a cow that anybody would offer £5, 10s. for?-No: she was sold too high as it was. I bought far cheaper cattle than that for Mr. Bruce. When the cow was sold Wilson was quite satisfied with the price
13,250. Would you be surprised to hear that the meal at Grutness is very often sold at 4s. a boll dearer than the same meal had been got for in Lerwick?-I would be rather surprised at that. It cannot be the same quality of meal if that is the case.
13,251. Do you say that it is not the case?-I cannot say what they may sell their meal for at Lerwick. The men sometimes go to Lerwick with money, and bargain to get goods under the market price. I have seen that done, and a handle of that may be made in Lerwick.
13,252. Are you aware whether the tenants on the Sumburgh estate have been offered leases and refused them?-Yes.
13,253. If they had got leases, would they have released them from the obligation to fish for their landlord?-I don't think Mr. Bruce would have given lease of that kind unless he had raised the rents on his property, because it is on account of the fishing that he does not raise them as it is.
13,254. Do you understand that the farms are let at a lower rent in consequence of the men being obliged to fish?-Yes. I think Mr. Bruce would get higher rents if that was not the case.
13,255. Do you know whether these [showing paper headed, 'Rules for the better management of the Sumburgh estate'] are the rules that were laid down for the management of the property?-Yes.
13,256. I believe very few of the men have accepted them?-None at all, to my knowledge.
13,257. But that contains no obligation about fishing?-No; but the thing in it which the men object to is the last paragraph: 'Subject to the above rules, the landlord reserves right to take into his own hands any part of his estate at any time on giving the tenant legal notice.' The men object to that, and I think I would do the same if I was taking a lease.
13,258. Do you understand that if the men agree to these regulations they would be free from the obligation to fish, or is that obligation referred to in the clause, 'The tenant shall be bound to observe the rules generally in force on the property for the time being?'-Of course it would be considered that they would still have to deliver their fish to Mr. Bruce at the current rate of the country; but although they have no leases, there is no man who has been annoyed on the property since the young laird had the management of it.
13,259. Have you sometimes heard the men complaining that they only got lispund weight?-Sometimes they did, but sometimes when we had to give them pecks we could not afford to give more.
13,260. When you sell pecks do you charge boll price?-No, we charge it little beyond that; but if we retail meal out in peck weight we lose a great deal.
13,261. Supposing 5s. 6d. was the quarter boll price in 1870, what would be the price of a peck?-We would not weigh it out in that way.
13,262. What would be the price of a peck if it was weighed out? Would it be 1s. 41/2d.?-It would be somewhere thereabout; but there is not so much inlake [sic] in weighing out small quantities of meal as there is in other things.
13,263. But if you were selling a peck of meal when the price was 5s. 6d. per quarter boll, what would you charge for the peck?-I suppose it would be 1s. 4d.
13,264. That would be a 1/2d. less than the quarter of quarter boll?-Yes, I think I would charge about that.
13,265. Then is there any foundation for the statement of the men, that they only got lispund weight at the boll price when they bought it in pecks?-There might be but I could not say as to that. It might have happened in some cases.
13,266. But that would be intended to cover the loss in weighing out?-If we take a sack of meal and weigh it out in lispunds and pecks, there is a great inlake [sic] and often when the meal comes wet there is some of it lost in transport, and when it lies long there is a great deal lost in the stores by vermin and in other ways, and the inlake [sic] must be met in some way.
13,267. Do you always read over the accounts of the men to them before settlement?-Generally.
13,268. Do you check them along with the men?-Yes; and Mr. Bruce never enters the amount of their accounts until the men are satisfied with them.
13,269. You hand in the total amount of a man's account at the shop to Mr. Bruce in order that it may be entered in Mr. Bruce's own ledger for settlement with the man?-Yes. When Mr. Bruce begins to settle, the Grutness ledger is brought up to the office, and the accounts are added up and squared off. Mr. Bruce never enters a shop account in his ledger until he and the men agree that it is correct. Some of the men also have accounts of their own, and can compare every article as it is entered in the shop ledger.
13,270. Do you know what arrangements are made with the men about boats and lines?-There is no arrangement. They furnish their boats and lines for themselves.
13,271. Is that so in all cases?-Yes. If a man is not able to buy his boat, or when he is shifting, he [Page 329] goes to Mr. Bruce before the fishing season begins and gets an order for a new boat.
13,272. Is he expected to pay that up by instalments?-He is not asked for it until he settles matters at the twelvemonth's end.
13,273. But is there a fixed instalment payable each year by a term of years, or is it paid just as the man finds himself able to do so?- There are some men with money to get who would be able to pay up the whole price of their boat at the first settlement, or the greater part of the price. That is seldom the case, but I have known it to happen. Generally they get twelve months' credit, and at the end of the twelve months any money that is due to them is entered the same as cash to account in Mr. Bruce's books. Then if a man cannot pay his way altogether, the balance is carried on perhaps for several years.
13,274. How long is it before a boat that is purchased in that way is usually paid for? would it be three or four years, or more or less?-Of course it depends very much on the circumstances of the men. If it is a poor man who has generally been behind, he may have a balance this year against him, which may run on for half a dozen years always increasing, and his share of the boat may be in that balance.
13,275. You mean that his share of the boat may be very long in being paid, while the other shares may be paid up sooner?-Yes; but the expense of a boat is not very great. I don't think one of the boats we have would cost more than £3 for the whole affair-that is, the material we give the order for.
13,276. Do you mean to say that a boat for the longline fishing costs only £3?-The material of it does.
13,277. Do you not use the six-oared boats here?-They are beginning to use the six-oared boats now, but they are very expensive. There are two or three now. I think there were some before Mr. Bruce came to the place, and now for the last two years their use is becoming general.
13,278. Has the fishing been carried on entirely with the small boats hitherto?-Yes; and I believe the small boats in general make most money.
13,279. How many men are in each of those small boats?- Generally three men, or two men and two boys.
13,280. That is a different system from what prevails in other parts of Shetland?-There is no difference, except that our men make more money than they generally do in the north fishing, and there are no men in Shetland who have to incur less expense for sea material.
13,281. Do you engage any fish-curers?-Yes, for Mr. Bruce.
13,282. Is the fee fixed at the end of the year according to the result of the fishing?-No; it is generally fixed at the beginning; but when a heavy fishing occurs, we generally advance their wages a little.
13,283. Do these men and boys generally run an account at the store?-Very little. I was observing from the books, that one man had as high a fee as £10 last year, and £12 the year before, and this year I think he is to have £10 again; and I don't think he has an account of £1 in the book, or anything near it. All that he gets is a mere trifle; a few shillings up or down.
13,284. Do most of the people engaged in the curing get a large part of their earnings in money?-Most of them do. There is seldom a year when we do not have people from other estates curing for us. We get them wherever we can; of course at as low a rate as possible. They sign an agreement for the season, and then they are paid according to that agreement generally at Martinmas.
13,285. Are the tenants upon the estate bound to send their sons to the curing?-They are not regularly bound, so far as I know; but it is understood in the same way as with the fishing, that if a man has a son, and we can afford to give him as much wages as another, we are to get the preference.
13,286. Have you interfered with any boys going to other engagements, in order that you might have them for the curing?- There was one case of that kind last year, with the son of William Goudie.
13,287. Had he got another engagement?-He was not engaged. His uncle is manager at the station, and he wrote me saying that he boy could get £3, 10s. of wages from another party, and that we would not get him again unless we gave him that wage. That was far higher for a boy's wage than we were in use to give, and I told the boy to tell his father to come over and speak to Mr. Bruce or me about it. The father came over and told Mr. Bruce and me that the boy had been offered £3, 10s. and we distinctly told him that if we could not afford to give him the same wages, he was at liberty to go to any one he chose. I also said we could hardly believe that he had got such a rise, but I told him, and Mr. Bruce also said, that if he could get 1s. more we did not want the boy, and he could engage him to any one he chose. The father went home, but he thought that perhaps we would be displeased if he gave the boy to another, and the boy went to the store. He went with his own accord, and by his father's instructions, and remained the whole season. He was a very good boy, and when he settled with Mr. Bruce he gave him the same wages that he had stated, £3, 10s. The father was a tenant of Mr. Bruce's, but at first we could scarcely believe that the boy had got the offer of such a rise.
13,288. Do you believe now that he got the offer of such a rise?- Yes. The man was one of those who were examined in Lerwick, and that was his declaration, and I believe it to be true. There have been other cases where boys have not been interfered with when they had engaged with another party. Last year one of Mr. Bruce's tenants had a boy who was engaged with another party to cure fish, and he would not come to us at all, and there was nothing said about it.
13,289. Is there any expectation on your part that the men whom you employ in the fishing shall come for goods to your shop?- No. We would rather be clear of it. The only trouble we have in the matter is to keep some of them from coming too much to us. They want more goods than we are inclined to give them. We never lay in goods to induce them to come, while those who have plenty of money go to other shops, and perhaps never come to us at all. We never ask them to do so.
13,290. Do you think you would get as many and as good men to fish for you if you did not have the shop at all?-I think so. The principal advantage which the shop is to them is that when they are coming ashore they require fishing material, such as hooks, twine, lines, and other things, at the place where they land, and before they go to sea again. We endeavour to get the best of that material for them, because there are always a great many complaints made in Shetland about the quality of that material. Two or three years ago, when I was south, I went to two or three of the principal makers, and got hooks made on purpose for our trade. We pay 41/2d. per 100 for them to the manufacturer above what other merchants pay; and the other merchants sell their hooks at 2s. 4d. per lb, while we sell them at 2s. 6d., being a loss to us of 21/2d. upon every 100 hooks that we sell, over what is charged by our neighbours.
13,291. That is to say, you get 21/2d. less profit than other merchants do?-Yes. I also made arrangements for lines and twine being made specially for us in the same way. For 2-lb. lines, although we try to keep a better article, we charge only 2s. 2d., while I find that other parties charge 2s. 3d. for the same thing; and our articles are better, because they are made specially for us.
Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, JOHN BRUCE, jun., examined.
13,292. You are a son of Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh, and you hold a tack from him of his property in Dunrossness?-Yes.
13,293. You have prepared a statement on the subject [Page 330] of this inquiry which you wish to appear as part of your evidence?-Yes.
[The witness put in the following statement.]
'The tenants on the property in this parish managed by me are at liberty to go to sea or to the Greenland or Faroe fishing, or to pursue any land occupation as they please; but if they remain at home and go to the home fishing, they are expected to deliver their fish to me and receive for it the full market value. This is one of the conditions on which they hold their farms and is, I consider, a beneficial rule for the fishermen. They must fish to some merchant, and as I give them as high a price as they could get from another, they are no losers, while I provide suitable curing and fishing stations, and these stations of mine are the most convenient places for them to deliver their fish.
'I am obliged to keep stores at some of the fishing stations for the convenience of the fishermen, to supply them with fishing gear, groceries, and other things which they may require. But no fisherman is expected or wished to take anything from these stores unless it is his wish to do so.
'Any fisherman can get the full value of his fishing in money from me at any time if he wishes it. I have never once refused to pay a fisherman the full sum due to him in money. And, in fact, there are many cases in which fishermen take nothing whatever out of my stores, but receive the full value of their fishing in cash.
'I have also fishing for me fishermen who are not my tenants, and over whom I have no control; and these are treated in every respect the same as my own tenants.
'Prior to 1860 the tenants on the property managed by me were permitted to fish to any one they liked, and the people were very much in debt, both to the landlord and to the various merchants to whom they fished-and, for the most part, could not pay their rents.
'The debts to the landlord averaged two years' rents over the whole property.
'On account of the general state of bankruptcy, I was obliged to take the fishing into my own hands, and I consider the people now to be in a much more flourishing state.
'For the most part, fishermen are quite satisfied with having their accounts read over to them. But those fishermen who ask for copies of their accounts at settlement always get them, and the books are always open for them to refer to at any after-time.
'With regard to the prices charged at the stores, the goods I keep are in all cases of the best quality, and may be a little higher-priced than goods of the same description but of inferior quality, but I am not aware that anything is charged unreasonably high.
'NOTE.-The only grievance of which my tenants can complain is, that they are obliged to fish to me. This, I will endeavour to show, is no grievance at all, but an advantage to the fishermen.
'In looking over the whole of Shetland, it will be found that the most prosperous districts are those under the direct management of the landlords.
'Many of the fishermen in this country (as indeed many of the poorer classes everywhere) are unable, from want of thrift and care to manage their own matters in a satisfactory manner, and require to be thought for and acted for, and generally treated like children, and are much better off under the management of a landlord who has an interest in their welfare, than they would be if in the hands of a merchant whose only object was to make a profit out of them.
'A merchant who has no control over the fishermen, may, in some cases wish to get them and keep them in his debt, in order to secure their custom; but the case of a landlord also a merchant is quite different. It is his interest to have a prosperous, thrifty, and independent tenantry; and he will use his utmost endeavour to keep them out of debt, and to encourage saving habits.
'I can see no reason why the fact of a man being a landlord should prevent him from being also a merchant and fish-curer; and if so, why he should not secure a lot of good fishermen by making it one of the conditions of occupancy by his tenants, that if fishermen they shall fish to him.
'The very fact of a landlord being a fish-curer would lead up to this, for tenants would naturally wish to stand well with their landlord, and other conditions being equal, would prefer to give him their fish.
'The same thing is done everywhere else. In Orkney, in many estates, the tenants are obliged to manufacture a certain quantity of kelp, and to deliver it to the landlord at a certain fixed price, which leaves the landlord a large profit.
'In many counties in England and Scotland, farmers are required to send their grain to mills belonging to landlords, and to perform certain services, such as cartage for the landlord, either free or at a low fixed rate. I can see no greater hardship in a Shetland landlord letting his farms to tenants who will fish to him, than in a south-country manufacturer letting his cottages to tenants who will work to him.
'There are, no doubt, many things in the Shetland system of trade which might be improved; but the system has been of long growth, and is so engrained in the minds of the people, that any change must be very gradual; a sudden and sweeping change to complete free-trade principles and ready-money payments would not suit the people, but would produce endless confusion, hardship, and increased pauperism.
'Under the present system, our small rentals and large population, our poor-rates are very high. But the landlords support a great many families which would otherwise be thrown on the rates.
'It is no uncommon thing, where a family is deprived of its breadwinner, for the landlord to support the family till the younger members grow up, and are abler to provide for themselves, and repay the landlord's advances.
'Abolish the present system suddenly, and I am afraid our poor-rates would become unbearable, and nothing would save the country but depopulation.
'It has never been the habit in Shetland to fix the price to be paid for the fish till after the fishing is over. Complaints have been made against this, and I do not defend the practice, but I believe it to be popular with fishermen; and I believe, on the whole, they receive more money for their fish under the present practice they would if an engagement at a fixed price was always entered into at the commencement of the season.
'If you ask a fisherman if he has a grievance, he will be sure to try and find one for you; but I do not believe that the respectable part of my tenants find it to be any grievance their being obliged to fish to me.*
[Page 331]
13,294. You have heard the evidence which has been given by Mr. Irvine?-Yes.
13,295. Has he explained correctly, so far as you have heard, the manner in which the business is carried on at Grutness?-His statement was substantially correct; but I could satisfy you on some of the points that he did not know about.
13,296. There was a question asked about a Thomas Aitken, whether he had signed any special obligation with regard to fishing?-I am not aware that he ever did. It would not be usual to make him sign any agreement with regard to that.
13,297. Was there any agreement signed with regard to the fishing when you were in partnership with Mr. Grierson?-None that I am aware of with regard to the men, and I know of no special agreement with Thomas Aitken.
13,298. Was there any agreement with any of the men?-No. The only persons who sign agreements are fishermen who do not belong to the property I manage
13,299. Are agreements signed with them?-Yes. In the case of a man coming to me for an advance of money, I occasionally make him sign an agreement to fish for the rising year, in case he may take the advance of money from me and then go somewhere else.
13,300. Do men from adjacent properties sometimes come to you for an advance in that way?-Yes.
13,301. Do they get advances from you in money or in supplies?- In money or in goods, but generally in money; and in these cases agreements are sometimes written out.
13,302. Do you remember James Brown being told by you the reason why his farm was advertised to be let?-Yes; but I am not very clear about the time.
13,303. Was it about ten or twelve years ago?-I don't think it was so long ago as that. There were two men, James Brown and William Irvine, at Toab; I either advertised their farms, or threatened to advertise them.
13,304. For what reason did you do that?-I am not very sure that I can recollect. I don't think it was for selling fish. I think it was for breaking some rule.
13,305. Was it not because he (Brown) had sold some fish to Robert Leslie, Messrs. Hay's factor?-I think not. I think it was for declining to assist to cure some fish in spring; but if James Brown swears it was for selling fish, that may have been the case.
13,306. In what way do you fix the average price of meal for a year?-We take what other people are charging in Lerwick and elsewhere; and after considering the quality of the meal, and our extra expense upon it, we charge what we think it can reasonably bring, without any regard to the cost price of it.
13,307. Do you not take the cost price into consideration at all?- Of course it is an element, but not the principal element, in fixing the price.
13,308. You think you are entitled at Grutness to put an additional charge on the meal above what it is in Lerwick, in respect of the risk and expense of carriage?-Yes. Then the price at Lerwick, is a cash price always, while at Grutness it is a credit price.
13,309. Do you mean that at Grutness the settlement for the meal sold does not take place until the end of the year?-Yes; that is one reason why the meal is a little dearer at Grutness than it is at Lerwick, because when a man goes to Lerwick he goes with the money in his hand, and pays for the meal at the time as a rule.
13,310. But at Grutness it is usually settled for as against fish?- Yes; but very often it is supplied long before the fish are there to meet it.
13,311. Mr. Irvine has said the supplies generally begin in April, and the fish begin to be caught in April or May?-Yes; the summer fishing begins about 15th May.
13,312. The fish are not paid for either until the following spring?-No.
13,313. So that the fish are bought at a credit price, and the meal is sold at a credit price?-Yes; when the accounts are balanced.
13,314. But the fish with which the meal is really paid for are in your hands all the time?-They may or they may not be.
13,315. Are they not in your hands from the time they are caught?-Yes; but a man may have money to his credit with me, or he may be in debt when he gets the meal.
13,316. But the fish are not paid for to the fisherman at a credit price?-No.
13,317. Then why should the meal be charged a credit price any more than the fish?-Perhaps there is no good reason for it. The reason would only hold good when the man is in debt.
13,318. Are the men as often in debt as not?-No. My people are pretty free from debt. I should say that not over one in six or seven is in debt.
13,319. What is the freight of meal from Lerwick?-I think it is 11d. per boll in the steamer from Aberdeen to Lerwick; 1d. for landing at Lerwick; 4d. from Lerwick to Grutness by the packet; and 1d. for landing at Grutness.
13,320. Do you sometimes bring your meal direct from Aberdeen to Grutness by a packet?-I have once done so. I had a vessel coming up at any rate, and she took load of meal on board.
13,321. You say in your statement that you have never refused to pay a fisherman the full sum due to him in money: I presume that means at settlement?-Yes, at settlement, or if wanted before.
13,322. If a man applies for money before settlement, do you consider how much is reasonably due to him at that period of the year?-If he is a good man, I would give him any sum he asked for. If he was a man I was doubtful of, I would only give him the amount he had at his credit, but he might get that full amount at whatever time he asked for it.
13,323. In these circumstances, is there any reason for the complaint of the men, that they cannot get their money until settling time?-There is none.
13,324. The settlement last year was protracted as late as April: is that usual?-It is not usually so late as April. The settlements are generally finished by March.
13,325. Can you suggest any reason why the settlements with the men in Shetland should not generally be at an earlier period than that?-It is merely a matter of convenience. The settlements could be earlier if the men so wished it; but I don't know that it would do any good although they were earlier.
13,326. With regard to Fair Isle, is there a standing prohibition against other traders dealing with the inhabitants [Page 332] there?-To a certain extent there is. I don't object to people trading there if they confine themselves to hosiery and eggs, and that sort of thing; but what I am afraid of is, that persons may go there and buy fish.
13,327. The inhabitants there are under an obligation, as a condition of their tenure, to fish for you?-Yes.
13,328. As the landlord, do you place a restriction upon the sale of their cattle also?-Yes, there is a rule to that effect, but it is a very lax one.
13,329. Is it not virtually the result of the obligation to fish or to sell cattle to the proprietor alone, that the proprietor has the power of fixing the price, and that the tenant has no option at all with regard to that in either case?-That is not the result. Even although the proprietor buys the cattle and prevents any one else from competing with him, still he respects public opinion so far, that he gives the full value for the animal.
13,330. Then public opinion is the only check upon the proprietor, and of course his own sense of right?-That is his only check.
13,331. How do you ascertain the current price of fish, according to which you pay your men at the end of the year?-There is an understanding among the principal fish-curers with regard to that.
13,332. Is there a consultation upon the subject?-Yes, either directly or indirectly, and they all pay the same.
13,333. Do you send your fish Scotland generally, or do you send them abroad?-I send them principally to Ireland. Our fishing here is principally for saith, which is not carried on to any great extent in any part of the country except in this parish; and that kind of fish only finds a market in Ireland.
13,334. Did you pay as high a price for saith last year as Mr. Smith and Mr. Tulloch?-No. I have not settled yet for last year.
13,335. But you did not get such a price for your saith last year as would justify you in paying so high a rate?-I did not; and I can explain the reason. These small curers send their fish away in retail lots, and realize a price for them that no large curer can get.
13,336. Have the small curers more trouble in selling?-They have much more trouble; but they do the work themselves, and they don't take that into account.
13,337. Does that not show that fishermen curing on a small scale on their own behalf might realize higher prices if they could cure equally well with the large curers?-Not if all the fishermen were on that footing. Unless they entered into some sort of co-operation, they could not get their fish sent to market at all.
13,338. Would they not be likely to sell them through travellers coming up for the purpose of buying fish?-Yes.
13,339. The returns with which you are to furnish me will apply to the year 1870, as you have not yet settled for the year 1871?-Yes.
*Mr Bruce afterwards put in the following additionalstatement:-I may here mention that stores such as I keep at the stationsfor the convenience of the fishermen do not pay as a speculation,though we could not very well carry on the business without them.For instance, the store at Grutness, some of the accounts of whichyou examined, would show a balance-sheet thus-Gross value of goods charged against the shop at retail pricesduring season 1870 £410 11 21/2Cost value of goods at the variousmarkets. £313 0 10Freights on do. 28 16 412 tons coals at 21s. allowed tostorekeeper; say fire and light 15 0 0Wages to storekeeper-I pay£70 say for store 40 0 0Nominal profit, say 13 14 0 £410 11 21/2
But against this nominal profit has to be placed rent of shop, and house occupied by storekeeper, incidents such as stationery, wrapping paper, twine, furniture, etc., interest on capital invested in goods, loss in retailing goods, bad debts, and loss by deterioration of goods on hand. These figures are not supposed to be exactly correct, but they are substantially so, and at all events are near enough to show that these stores, as managed by me, do not pay, and would certainly never be kept with a view to profit were they not required as a matter of convenience. In a place like Fair Isle, with a population of only 226, there is only room for one store. As I have to keep a store there for the convenience of the islanders, I discourage them from trading with any one else, as the only chance to make my store pay is to get the whole or the greater part of their custom. Though there is a rule that the islanders shall not trade with others, I have never enforced this rule where I believed the parties visiting the island did not attempt to buy fish-in fact, in many cases I have given liberty to parties to trade with the islanders; and the only case in which I have enforced the rule, as in the case of a man from Orkney who, I had evidence to prove, stole my fish from the station at night, and shipped it on board of his vessel. I have no poor-rates and no paupers in Fair Isle, and I have never evicted a tenant. If a widow or other poor person can't pay their rents they sit rent free, and get help from their friends, and my manager has orders to see that no one starves. I may mention that I have some property of my own in Sandwick parish where the tenants are free to fish to whom they like, and they do not fish for me; but they pay good rents, and are not in arrears. I also manage a property in the parish of Cunningsburgh belonging to my father. It consists of 69 holdings, at a rental of £194, 19s. 7d. and the arrears of rent due on the property when I took the management of it in 1869 amounted to £487 10 3 Since then I have received payment of £97 9 21/2 And have written off in compromise with tenants deeply in debt, sums to the amount of 63 11 7 Thereby reducing the balance to 326 9 5 £487 10 3
These tenants are free to fish to whom they like, and none of them fish to me. I have not yet evicted any tenant, and if they go on as they are doing I may have to make no change; but should they fail to pay their rents as in times past, I must either evict the non-payers, or take the fishing into my own hands.
JOHN BRUCE, jun.
SUMBURGH, SHETLAND,
1
Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, ROBERT HENDERSON (recalled), examined.
13,340. I understand you want to make some explanation of your previous evidence?-Yes. I said that when we bought fish we paid for them when they were delivered. As a rule we do, and any party who wishes to be paid at once can be paid at once; but sometimes, when a few men are going in one boat, they wish merely to have the weight of the fish marked, and then have it squared off perhaps in a month or two or at the end of the fishing.
13,341. You are speaking now of the winter and spring fish?- Yes.
13,342. So that you have some accounts for fish?-Yes.
13,343. And these may be liquidated partly by the men taking goods?-Yes, just as they like.
13,344. In these cases, is there a ledger account with the goods on the one side and the fish on the other?-Yes, if the men choose to have it so; but it is entirely at their own option whether they are to be paid at once or whether the fish are to be put into the account.
13,345. What may be the amount of these accounts generally?- Will they be as much as £2 or £3?-Yes; sometimes £4 or £5.
13,346. In some of these cases no cash may pass at all?-As a rule, the men wish, to have the cash placed to the credit of their private accounts; but if they wish cash at once they can get it.
13,347. Will you have 20 or 30 of these accounts in a year?-No. There may be four or five accounts for crews in that way, but they are the exception. As a rule, we pay for the fish when we receive them.
Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, OGILVY JAMIESON, examined.
13,348. You are shopkeeper at Mr. Grierson's shop at Quendale?-I am.
13,349. Do you also act as factor or overseer on his property?- Generally I do.
13,350. Do you keep all the books connected with the fish-curing and shop business?-Yes.
13,351. How many fishermen are employed by Grierson?- Perhaps from 80 to 100 hands, men and boys.
13,352. How many do you employ in the curing?-Generally 14 or 16.
13,353. When you take on a boy as a beach boy, is he paid by a fee?-Yes.
13,354. That is settled like the fishermen's accounts at the end of the season?-Generally; but sometimes they want to know their wages before and they are told what they are.
13,355. Do you ever pay these fees as advances, or during the course of the season?-Generally, when they require anything, they get it from the shop, and the balance is paid in cash, or the whole amount is paid in cash if they have taken no advances.
13,356. I suppose a beach boy, or one employed in the fish-curing, generally begins by opening an account and taking out supplies?- Sometimes they do, and sometimes not. Some of them have not taken out more than perhaps 2s. during the whole season.
13,357. Do three-fourths of them run up accounts?-They generally do to a small extent, but not to the full amount of their wages.
13,358. What is the average fee for a boy?-It is generally 30s. for the first year, and it is advanced according as they are found to be worth it. 50s. was the highest we paid the boys this year.
13,359. Will a boy ever have 10s. or £1 to get at the end of the year?-Yes, and sometimes more. I should wish to state that we had a boy last-indeed we have had him for two years-over whom we have no control. Last year he had 25s., and in the present year he was engaged for 27s. but I paid him 30s.
13,360. I understand there are some of the boys over whom you have control?-Yes.
13,361. That is to say, they are the sons of tenants?-Yes; and it is one of the conditions of their holdings, that they have to supply boys when they have them suitable for the purpose.
13,362. That is one of the conditions, in the same way as it is a condition of their holdings, that if the tenants themselves engage in ling fishing at all, they shall fish for Mr. Grierson?-Yes.
13,363. Have you known any cases of boys engaged to other employers who have been required by Mr. Grierson, or by you on his behalf, to give up that engagement and come to you to work at the beach?-There has been no case of that kind, to my knowledge.
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13,364. Do you know James Jamieson at Berlin?-I do.
13,365. Had he a son, a boy of thirteen, employed with you lately?-Yes, last year.
13,366. Are you aware that he had previously been engaged as a servant to a neighbouring farmer, and that Mr. Grierson required him to come and work at fish-curing?-I did not know that he was engaged at all.
13,367. Who engaged him for the curing?-I did.
13,368. Did he not state to you that he was already engaged to another master?-Not that I remember of.
13,369. Do you know James Brown, Millpond?-Yes.
13,370. Is he an elderly man now?-Yes.
13,371. Is he engaged at the fishing?-No.
13,372. Do you know whether he had to pay £1 of liberty money?-He has not done so within the last year or two, to my knowledge; but I think he paid it in 1869. However, I am not quite clear about that. I know that I got notice about the liberty money, and I think either he or his son went to Lerwick to Mr. Grierson about it.
13,373. Did he pay it?-I cannot say.
13,374. Was he at that time an old man, and fishing with two or three other old men, but not actively engaged in the summer fishing?-He was not fishing at all, so far as I know.
13,375. Then why had he to pay liberty money?-I don't know. Perhaps it may have been on account of his son, but I cannot say.
13,376. Would any transaction of that kind take place with Mr. Grierson and not with you?-It might.
13,377. Do you know Charles Eunson?-Yes.
13,378. Had he to pay liberty money in 1867?-I cannot say; I have only been three years in Mr. Grierson's employ,
13,379. Is Brough on the Quendale estate?-Yes.
13,380. Do you know James Shewan, who lives on the Brough property?-Yes.
13,381. Whom did he fish for last year?-I think he cured fish for himself. He was fishing at Scatness, and I think he delivered his fish to Hay & Co.; but I am not sure.
13,382. Had he to pay £1 of liberty money at last settlement?- Yes.
13,383. Was that in January 1872?-I think it was before January; but he paid it at the settlement.
13,384. Have there been other cases of liberty money being exacted and paid in 1871 and 1872?-There has been one other case besides Shewan's.
13,385. Why did these men choose to pay the fine rather than to deliver their fish to you?-I cannot say. One man who pays it does not fish at all, and I suppose they think they get value for it, or else they would not pay it.
13,386. Who pays it and does not fish?-William Gilbertson, the Mails.
13,387. You have not got the books connected with the fishing business in your possession at present?-No; they are all in Lerwick at present, except one daybook.
13,388. I noticed an entry in one of your books this morning, of one boll meal sold on 2d June 1870 at 16s. 6d.?-Yes, that was the price at that time.
13,389. Did the price vary much during that year?-Very considerably.
13,390. What would you consider a fair average of the price for that year?-I think it was from 17s. 6d. to 22s. or 23s. per boll, so far as I remember.
13,391. Do you think 22s. or 23s. was the highest price during the year?-I think so; but I am merely speaking from recollection.
13,392. What is the price of a 2 lb. line at your shop?-2s. 3d.; 21/4 lbs. is 2s. 6d.; 13/4 lbs, 2s.; and 11/2 lbs, 1s. 9d.
13,393. How many kinds of tea do you keep?-Three kinds, which we sell at 8d., 9d., and 10d.
13,394. How many kinds of sugar?-Three kinds, which we sell at 5d., 6d., and 61/2d.
13,395. What is the price of your tobacco?-1s. and 1s. 2d. per quarter for mid and small tobacco. We sell it at 31/2d. and 4d. per ounce for single ounces and 6d. and 7d. for two ounces.
13,396. Do your men own their own boats?-Yes, entirely.
13,397. You not hire out any boats?-Not any.
13,398. Do you sell the boats to them?-No; they buy them for themselves, or Mr. Grierson buys them for them.
13,399. Do you make an advance to them for the purchase of boats?-Yes; we generally give a line as security to any person supplying boats to the men.
13,400. Does the builder obtain the payment from you?-Yes. He is paid direct by us in cash.
13,401. Do you get repayment from the fishermen by instalments?-Not by instalments; they sometimes pay it all up in one year, but sometimes when a man is in arrears it runs over a good many years before it is paid. The sum he is due for his boat is included along with the rest of his dealings.
13,402. Is it the small boats that are used at Quendale?-No; we have mostly large boats now, which cost about £20.
Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, HENRY GILBERTSON, examined.
13,403. You keep the post office at Virkie near Sumburgh?-I do. I am a tailor to trade.
13,404. You are aware that the men in your neighbourhood are under an obligation to fish for the tacksman of the estate and that many of them deal at the shop at Grutness?-Yes.
13,405. I presume there is no obligation upon them to purchase their goods at that shop?-I suppose not, unless circumstances compel them to do so.
13,406. What circumstances compel them?-There are many of them who have not got cash with which to go to any other place.
13,407. Have you sometimes purchased goods at the Grutness store yourself?-I have occasionally.
13,408. Did you find the quality and the price good and reasonable?-The price was generally higher than I could purchase the goods for at any other place, and the quality was sometimes as good and sometimes not so good. About a year ago there was cotton at Grutness at 16d. a yard; but it had been purchased during the time of the American War, when the price was high, and the price was kept up still. I have some goods that were given to me to supply Mr. Bruce's fishermen with including some of that cotton, and I have never been told to reduce the price.
13,409. Were you entrusted with that cotton to sell it?-Yes. I got about £50 worth of cloth and furnishings about five years age to supply to such tenants as had not the means to go to any other place; and although the prices of cotton and wincies fluctuated since I have continued to sell at the same price. Of course most of it is gone now.
13,410. But you have been selling it at that advanced price?-Yes. The fishermen have taken it who had no other way of getting it.
13,411. Have they taken it on credit?-Yes; most of it has been given on credit. There were very few who have taken any of it except those who had no money to go to any other place.
13,412. If they had had money, would they have been able to get exactly the same article at a cheaper rate?-The cloth was pretty moderate, because, when I brought it from Grutness, Mr. Bruce asked me how it would range with the cloth Mr. Henderson had. I told him it was dearer, and he said he would take off some of the price of it, for he meant to give the fishermen the same advantage which they got in another shop; and the three pieces of cloth which I got were reduced 1s. upon each yard. In that case no one complained about the price of the cloth, only the furnishings were higher.
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13,413. Is there any other article with regard to the price and quality of which you can speak?-I have not dealt in Grutness for some time, because I generally had money, and I bought my goods elsewhere, where might get them cheaper. I got most of them from Mr. Henderson, and some I got from Lerwick.
13,414. Do you sometimes buy from Hay & Co.'s, shop at Dunrossness?-Yes,
13,415. Are some things cheaper there than at Grutness?-Some things are and other things are much about the same.
13,416. What things are cheaper?-Tea and sugar, and such things as these.
13,417. Is Hay & Co.'s shop nearer to you than Grutness?-Yes.
13,418. Is it nearer to most of the people than Grutness?-Yes. Grutness is rather out of the way.
13,419. Do you know anything about a meeting that was held at Grutness, some time ago?-I know there was a meeting of fishermen held at the schoolhouse but I was not there. After the meeting several of the men came to my house on their way home, and spoke about what had taken place. They were generally dissatisfied with the way in which the meeting had been conducted.
13,420. What was the occasion of the meeting?-It was in order that they might lay their grievances before the commissioner at Lerwick. I believe one of the men actually went there.
13,421. Did you understand that the others were unwilling or afraid to go?-I understood, from what they said, that they were unwilling, for fear of offending their masters. They told me that at the time.
13,422. What did they say?-They accused some of their number of cowardice. Some were frightened for one thing, and some for another.
13,423. What were they afraid of?-Just of offending their masters; that was their principal idea. They were afraid they might be warned.
13,424. What was the complaint they had to make?-I believe their principal complaint was about the bondage which they are under.
13,425. Do you think they have not so much to say about being settled with only once a year?-Of course that was discussed too and they thought it was not right. They thought the settlement was made too late in the year. That was one of their objections; but the principal thing was, that they wished their liberty to sell their produce to any person who would pay the best price for it.
13,426. Have you lived in Dunrossness all your life?-I have been in Dunrossness all my life except twelve years, when I was south.
13,427. Was your father a farmer or crofter and fisherman in Dunrossness?-Yes.
13,428. Before Mr. Bruce took the fishing into his own hands, I believe, the tenants were free?-No; the fishermen were bound some forty-three years ago. My father held a croft then on the estate of Brough, of which Mrs. Sinclair was proprietor, and she bound him over to fish for Mr. Bruce at that time, although she did not take the fishing herself. That fishing came to be the most ruinous concern that ever happened to my family, because it brought my father into debt that he might otherwise have been clear of.
13,429. How did it bring him into debt?-Because the fish were not managed properly, and of course they came to be sold as bad fish, and the men got nothing for them, or next to nothing. I heard my father say that they got 3s. 11d. for dry fish in the last year of the fishing, and they had to pay for salt and cure out of that.
13,430. Could a free man, at that time have got more?-A free man was getting from £9 to £10 a ton; and things came to such a pass that the people got desperate. There were poor years at the same time, and the men applied to their landlord, and got their liberty on condition of paying 15s. a head of liberty money. That was kept on until a few years ago, and then it was put into the rent again.
13,431. But it has only been since 1860 that the men have been bound again to fish in this district for their landlord; they were free before that time?-Yes, they were free for about twenty years. Of course I have always been a free man, because I have not been a fisherman.
13,432. Have you known many men in your district being warned in consequence of fishing for others than their landlord?-I have not known many.
13,433. Have you known men who would have fished for others if they had not been afraid of being warned?-I suppose they would have preferred that but warning comes to be a very serious thing here. In the south a man can shift from town to town and get employment: but here, if he leaves his house and farm, he has no place to go to except Lerwick, and there is no room to be got there, either for love or money.
13,434. Do you know of any case where compulsion has been used to oblige any of the men to deal at any of the stores in the district?-I cannot say that I have.
13,435. Do the men never get a hint to that effect?-No; but I suppose they are obliged to go through necessity, because they have no money with which to go anywhere else.
Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, GEORGE M'LACHLAN, examined.
13,436. Are you the principal lightkeeper at Sumburgh Lighthouse?-I am.
13,437. Where do you get the supplies for your house?-I get most of them from Aberdeen and Granton.
13,438. Do you purchase them yourself?-Yes.
13,439. They are not supplied by the Commissioners?-no.
13,440. Have you got any supplies at the neighbouring shops?-I have got very little from Grutness.
13,441. Have you got any from Hay & Co.'s shop, from Quendale?-No. I opened an account with Mr. Henderson after I came; but I have only been here since 1st. July.
13,442. Have you found Mr. Henderson's goods reasonable in price?-Quite reasonable in price, and good in quality.
13,443. How far is his shop from you?-About six or six and a half miles.
13,444. How far is Grutness from you?-About one and a quarter mile, or a little more.
13,445. How far is Hay & Co.'s shop?-About two and a quarter miles.
13,446. How far is Quendale from you?-I think about four miles.
13,447. Why do you go so far as Mr Henderson's or Aberdeen, or Granton for your supplies?-I opened an account at Mr Henderson's shop, because I could get anything there that I wished, and because Mr. Henderson was highly recommended to me before I came to the country at all.
13,448. Have you found the supplies at Grutness to be expensive?-I never bought much there.
13,449. Did you find that that shop was understood in the neighbourhood to be an expensive one?-I have heard people say so.
13,450. Was that the reason why you did not get your goods there?-Not particularly. One reason was because it was dear, and another reason was that they cannot supply us with general articles such as we want. I thought it was much better to open an account with man who was reasonable in his charges, or who at least was recommended to me as such, and a man who could supply me with anything I wanted.
13,451. What have you bought at Grutness or at the other shops?- Sometimes I have bought small things such as tobacco, but my wife has got most of the things we required.
13,452. Have you bought any tobacco at Hay & Co.'s?-Yes. I found it to be of ordinary quality. I think [Page 335] the price was 4s. 4d. per lb., as far as I can recollect but I am not quite sure, because I never bought much there. I could have got tobacco of about the same quality at Mr. Henderson's for 3s. 6d. I now produce a piece of Mr. Henderson's very good tobacco.,
13,453. Have you bought tobacco at Grutness also?-Only very little. I don't like the sort of tobacco that is kept there. There are two kinds kept at Grutness: but the best quality is too small in twist for smoking, and I don't care about teasing it up.
Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, LAWRENCE GARRIOCK, examined.
13,454. Are you a fisherman at Scatness?-I am.
13,455. Are you bound to fish for anybody?-No. I have always been at liberty. I am on the property of Mr. Bruce of Simbister, and I generally fish for Hay & Co.
13,456. They are the factors on the estate?-Yes.
13,457. Do you deal at their shop?-Yes, occasionally, when I like.
13,458. Do you pay your rent to Mr. Irvine, of Hay & Co.?-Yes.
13,459. Does he come down to settle at Dunrossness every year?- Yes. He settles in a room above the shop at Laighness.
13,460. Do you go through the shop to it?-Yes.
13,461. Have you generally money to receive at settlement?-I have had a little to receive for some years; but I run an account at the shop, and I am almost always in debt.
13,462. If you have got money to receive, is it paid to you in cash?-Yes. I am paid in cash what is due.
13,463. If there is anything due to you, do they ask you, as you come through the shop, if you want any goods?-No, that is left to my own choice.
13,464. But it would be quite fair to ask?-Yes, but they don't do it.
13,465. Are you satisfied with the quality of the goods you get there?-Yes. I never had any reason to complain about the quality, and the price is something similar to what I could get them for at other places.
13,466. At Grutness, for instance?-I never had much dealings there. It lies rather out of my way.
13,467. Is Hay & Co.'s shop the most convenient shop for you?- Yes.
13,468. Have you ever dealt at Gavin Henderson's shop?-Yes, I have tried it too.
13,469. Are not his goods cheaper than Hay & Co.'s?-No; they are much about the same. I could not say there was much difference. I have bought meal, cottons, and tobacco from him, land the difference in price was not worth mentioning.
13,470. Do you keep a pass-book at Hay & Co.'s?-No. I just trust to those who are serving me.
13,471. Were you at a meeting of fishermen held at Scatness a few weeks ago?-I was.
13,472. What was the object of the meeting?-I could scarcely say. The men assembled on purpose to give you (the Commissioner) some information about how they were situated, as you had come to Shetland to inquire into the matter; but when they were met together, they appeared to be frightened to say anything at all. Therefore the meeting was broken up, and every man went home.
13,473. How did it appear that they were frightened?-By the way in which they behaved at the meeting. There was a paper drawn up, and the men were to sign their names to it, but none of them would sign their names except about a dozen or so. The rest appeared to be very much frightened, and I told them so.
13,474. What were they frightened of?-They did not say, at least I did not hear them; but it was supposed they were frightened for the proprietor giving them their warning.
13,475. If they did not say it, how did you know they were frightened for that?-Because none of them would sign their names to the paper which was to be sent to you.
13,476. They might not have had any grievance all?-They might not; but all the men who were present wished to be at liberty to fish, and they were frightened to sign the paper saying that they wanted that. At least they appeared to be so, from not putting down their names.
13,477. Did not some of the men who were present come to Lerwick?-Yes. One man went, and some others went when they were summoned.
13,478. How did you happen to be at the meeting when you were not a bound man?-I went to see whether anything would be said about the right of the landlord to take one-third of the whales which are driven ashore. Occasionally whales are driven in from the sea; and I have seen us commencing at six o'clock on summer morning and working till late in the afternoon, or perhaps six at night, in getting them secured. Then, when the whales were flinched, the proprietor came in and took away one-third of the proceeds, and we were rather dissatisfied about that.
13,479. Do you think you ought to have got the whole?-Yes.
13,480. Did you not flinch the whales upon his shore?-Yes, but below high-water mark.
13,481. Has it not been always the custom in Shetland that the proprietor gets one-third of the blubber?-It has been so all my time.
13,482. Why do you submit that if it is not right?-The way we submit to it is because they have told us that if we carried off all the blubber they would raise the rent of the land we were labouring.
13,483. Who has told you that?-It has been said all my time.
13,484. Has any proprietor ever told you that?-There are men who have asked it and striven for it in my time. I have never done it myself, although I was very much dissatisfied about it: but the poor men are frightened to presume any further, for fear of the land being further burdened upon them, and it is so much burdened just now that we can scarcely pay for it.
Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, ARTHUR IRVINE, examined.
13,485. Are you a fisherman at Garthbanks, on the Quendale estate?-I am.
13,486. You have handed in to me a document signed by 28 fishermen on the Quendale property, stating that 'We, the undersigned, hereby certify that we have been honourably dealt with by Andrew J. Grierson, Esq. of Quendale, our present landlord and fish-merchant; and it is our desire to continue with him as our fish-merchant, and resolve that no other fish-curer in Shetland will get our fish until he refuses to take them?'-Yes.
13,487. How long have you fished for Mr. Grierson?-About 13 years.
13,488. Have you always sold your fish to him?-Yes.
13,489. And have you always got a fair price for them?-I have got the currency of the country.
13,490. Could you have got a higher price anywhere else in the district?-Not in our district, that I know of.
13,491. How far do you live from the place where the fish are delivered?-I live close to it. The curing place is about 50 yards from my house.
13,492. Who wrote this document?-I did.
13,493. When?-Yesterday.
13,494. Did anybody suggest to you to do so?-No. It was done at my own option.
13,495. Did anybody speak to you about it?-No.
13,496. Did you just take it into your own head?-Yes, at six o'clock last night.
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13,497. Did you get all these men to sign it last night?-Some last night, and some this morning on my way here.
13,498. Are they all neighbours of yours, quite close to Quendale?-Yes.
13,499. Were they all quite willing to sign it?-Yes; and more would have signed it if they had been asked.
13,500. You think Mr. Grierson is a very good landlord?-Yes; and we do not want to fish to any other. If there is any one better than him we don't know it.
13,501. Do you think you would not make anything more of it by curing your own fish and selling them to any other merchant?- We cannot cure the fish ourselves on that station, because there is no convenience except for one. There is room for all the boats, but only room for one man. The beaching station cannot be divided. It is not like down about Scatness, where there are so many different places for landing.
13,502. Are you a skipper in one of Mr. Grierson's boats?-Yes, of a six-oared boat.
13,503. Do you ever act as a factor to him?-No.
13,504. Do you receive his fish?-No.
13,505. Do you not hold any employment under Mr. Grierson?- No. I have a bit of ground from him, and I act in looking after his peat-mosses, but that is all the employment I have.
13,506. Do you get a small salary for that?-Yes.
13,507. Do you get all your goods at the Quendale shop?-Yes.
13,508. Do you get paid in money at the end of the year?-Yes; any one who has money to get, has it paid to him at that time.
13,509. Have you always something to receive?-No, some years I have something, and some years not.
13,510. Had you some cash to get last year?-No.
13,511. Were you behind the year before also?-I was not behind for that year, but I had been behind before.
13,512. And there has been a balance against you for good number of years?-Yes, because Mr. Grierson gave me an advance when I first took the land from him.
13,513. Do you think that if you were not bound to fish for Mr. Grierson your rent would be raised?-We think so, but perhaps we my be wrong.
13,514. Has anybody suggested to you that your rents might be raised if you were not going to fish to Mr. Grierson?-No, that is only our own imagination.
13,515. Has Mr. Grierson ever said so?-Not to my knowledge.
13,516. Did you ever hear that he had said so?-No, I never heard that.
13,517. Do you think it would be a reasonable thing for him to raise your rents if you were not fishing for him?-I cannot say; I think our rents are high enough as it is.
13,518. But you are afraid that your rents might be raised, and perhaps that may be the reason for some you having signed that paper?-It may have been, but I cannot say.
13,519. Are the goods which you get at Quendale store of good quality and cheap enough?-They are as cheap as we can get anywhere.