14,460. Then that is another reason for ceasing to employ young hands?-That, in my opinion, is principal reason.
14,461. Are these young hands not anxious to get employment for both voyages?-If they have to rough it very severely in the first voyage perhaps they get cured of going, and wish to stay at home.
14,462. But the abstracts you have produced show that the amounts of goods in 1866 and 1867 were very much in the same proportion; so that that is not consistent with the general proposition you stated, that the agents have restricted their credits to the men very much since these regulations were enforced?-As I said before, I made up these two lists in this way, that one was for the last year when the agents could settle without going before the shipping master, and the other was for the following year when they were compelled to go.
14,463. The abstracts you have produced, if they are to be taken as representative cases, rather show that the system introduced in 1867 made no difference at all?-I merely took these two years as specimens of what was done before and after the new system was introduced. I can prepare statements for other years if you think it necessary.
14,464. Perhaps the explanation may be that the 'Narwhal' was the case in which the greatest amount of cash was paid before 1867, in your experience?-I did not fix upon the ships in that way. I merely took them for the reason I have stated. The first man's account in that list shows that of £28, 11s. 3d. which he had to receive, he got £27, 15s. in cash. What I meant to show by that was, that the agent had no control over the man's cash, but that when he asked it he got it.
14,465. How many ships had you in 1866?-Two; the 'Narwhal' and the 'Erik.'
14,466. Did the men in the 'Erik' receive as large a proportion of cash as those in the 'Narwhal'?-I could not say positively unless I had the book, but I think they could not have had so much.
14,467. Would they have a good deal less?-They would have considerably less, because the vessel returned clean. The voyage was utterly unsuccessful.
14,468. Then, taking your experience while in Mr. Leask's employment before 1866, should you say that the men sailing in the ships for which he was agent generally received as much cash as the men of the 'Narwhal' in 1866?-I think on an average they would; but of course that would be in pretty successful years.
14,469. I am not speaking about the actual amount of cash which they would receive, and whether it was larger or smaller, but would they receive the same proportion of cash and of goods as is shown by your memorandum?-Scarcely.
14,470. Would the proportion be considerably less?-I am hardly prepared to say.
14,471. Are you prepared to say that since 1867 the men in the ships under your charge have got the same proportions of cash as against goods as are stated in the memorandum with regard to the 'Arctic'?-Nearly. I shall furnish a statement for a year or two in order to show how the matter stood then.*
14,472. How many vessels had you in 1871?-I had none in 1871. In 1870 I had two-the 'Narwhal' and the 'Arctic.'
14,473. Have you a separate book for each year?-I have for each ship. I should wish to make a remark with regard to the report of the Accountant of the Board of Trade. Enough, perhaps too much, has already been said on that subject, but I think his report is couched in rather exaggerated terms, and, to a cursory reader, is calculated to convey a very erroneous impression. To a careful reader it is very different, I must acknowledge, but with a cursory reader it might have that effect.
14,474. Then you don't go so far as Mr. Robertson has gone, and say that the statements in it are utterly erroneous?-No, I cannot do that.
14,475. You merely object to the general impression which it conveys?-Yes; but I decidedly object to that. I would also say that in my experience, which is nearly as long as that of any one in the agency I never knew of an agent intentionally putting off time in settling with the men. When I was in Mr. Leask's employment, before the passing of the Merchant Shipping Act, when the men were landed and got what cash and goods they wanted, they would generally ask at what time they would be settled with, and we would tell them that in the course of a month, by which time we got the returns ready-that is, the [Page 363] ship's accounts for wages and oil-money-we would settle with them at any time. That was the universal practice.
14,476. Formerly you did not settle with the men until you had got funds put into your hands by the owners-No; and we generally got these in the course of four weeks.
14,477. Do you know of any case in which a settlement was refused on the ground that you had not received funds from the owners?-No; I do not recollect of any such case.
14,478. Is there any foundation for this statement in Mr. Hamilton's report: 'Any man who carried his custom to any other shop than to that of the agent employing him, would run the risk of being a marked man, not only with that particular agent, but also with all the others, among whom the news of his contumacy would soon spread; and as there are more men than there are berths, he would probably never get any employment again.' Has a man had any difficulty in getting employment because he had carried his custom away from a particular agent?- I don't think so. If there was such a case, I think it must have been only one.
14,479. Was there one case?-I say I think it could only be one case.
14,480. But do you know of any one case?-Having left Mr. Leask's business, I consider it treading on rather delicate ground to speak about that; and I would not like to be pressed. Of course I must always remember in giving my evidence that I am on oath, but I would not like to be considered as equivocating.
14,481. I think you are giving very candid evidence; but you ought to tell if there is any foundation for the statement that the men had been refused employment because they had carried their custom elsewhere?-I am only aware of one solitary case.
14,482. Was that because the man had gone away and got an outfit or supplies elsewhere?-I am not aware of a man being denied a berth because he had taken an outfit elsewhere. I think the report of the Accountant is incorrect in that respect, because I have known no case in which a man has been refused a berth because he had taken his outfit elsewhere.
14,483. What was the one case to which you referred just now?-I cannot condescend upon the particulars which led to it specially; but there was one case of man being engaged, or partly engaged. He had been with the same master for some years before, but some little difference arose, and the man was prevented from going the voyage, and did not go to it. I cannot say what was the particular cause for that.
14,484. What was the name of the man?-Thomas Manson, Bressay. That has been the only case of that kind, in my experience of the Greenland trade.
14,485. The practice in engaging seamen, I understand, is that the men go to the agents and intimate their desire to be employed for the voyage?-Yes.
14,486. The agent has not the power of making legal engagement with the men, but the engagement is finally made by the captain?-Yes.
14,487. Do you go on board the vessel with the men for the purpose of having them engaged, or is the engagement generally made by the captain on shore?-There have been a few cases of engaging men on board ship, but very few.
14,488. But it is done at a meeting between the captain, the agent, and the men?-Yes.
14,489. I suppose the agent, where there are a number of men, has some voice with regard to their selection?-Unquestionably.
14,490. Are you aware whether any effort has been made by agents, either yourself or others, to secure engagements for the men who had larger accounts or larger debts in your books?-Of course there have been a few cases where an engagement has been got for a man who was in debt.
14,491. Do you know of any case where the captain has objected, or complained of the efforts made by the agent to get such men engaged?-No, I don't recollect of any such case.
14,492. Did you know a Captain M'Lennan who came here for men?-Yes.
14,493. Did he make any objection of that kind on any occasion?-No.
14,494. Did he not complain of it being done?-Not to my knowledge. I never heard any such complaint, either from him or from the owner on his behalf.
14,495. Were you at one time agent for a vessel of which he was master?-Yes, in 1870. He had his men sent south to him in the previous year. We had him for two years.
14,496. Were you not in business at all in 1871?-Not as shipping agents.
14,497. Had you applied to have the agency for Captain M'Lennan's ship in 1871, before you gave up the business?- No; we had her from 1866 till 1871, when we gave her up voluntarily.
14,498. Was no complaint made at all that you had endeavoured to engage men who were in your debt or who were running accounts with you?-No.
14,499. In your business, who was in the habit of settling with the men at the Custom House? was it yourself or a clerk?-It was invariably myself. In fact it was the same individual who had to appear every time. The shipping master would not allow one person to come now, and another person to come then.
14,500. You have already stated that, so long as you were engaged in the trade, the amount of your account was deducted, and only the balance was handed over to the man in presence of the shipping master?-Yes.
14,501. So that, in point of fact, your account was settled in the Custom House just as it was before the Board of Trade regulations, with this exception, that there was no writing or reading over of the accounts at that place?-Yes. Before 1867 it was done in our own office. I may mention that in several cases, of which this [showing an account of wages] is a specimen, the men actually got what they had to get according to the Board of Trade regulations. In that case the sum which the man had to get was £5, 16s. 3d.
14,502. Did he get the whole amount because he had no account at all?-He had an account, but he got this sum in full because his wife had not drawn all his allotments.
14,503. Were the allotments deducted in that account?-Yes, that was invariably done.
14,504. Did you draw the allotments for your account?-We drew them regularly from the owners.
14,505. So that this man got his balance due upon the account of wages, because his allotments had been applied to the account due to you?-Yes. I may mention that his account was very trifling,- in fact was next to nothing; and in addition to that he had a balance to get, when he came down to the office, of £3 odds due upon his allotments.
14,506. Have you any vessels engaged in the Faroe trade?-No; we are in no way connected with that fishing.
14,507. Have you any share as owner in any of the vessels for which you have acted as agent?-No; and as we are entirely out of that trade just now, have no reason for making the statements I have done, except merely to give it correct account of the way in which the business has been conducted. The statement I have made is altogether an unprejudiced one.
14,508. But you think the 21/2 per cent. allowed to you was a very inadequate remuneration?-Since the recent Board of Trade regulations were issued, it was because we had often to throw our own business aside to attend to the men when they came to settle.
*Mr. Tulloch afterwards furnished the following statement:-Men on s.s. 'Arctic,' of Dundee, voyage to seal and whale fishingin 1867.Amount of wages and oil-money, £411 14 6Amount of cash paid Shetland portion ofcrew-35 men, 318 14 6Amount of goods sold, £93 0 0
Average earnings, £11 15 3 ,, cash, 9 2 1 ,, goods, 2 13 1
Men on s.s. 'Narwhal's' voyage to seal and whale fishing in 1869-M'Lennan, master. Amount of wages and oil-money, etc.,. £303 15 2 Amount of cash paid Shetland portion of crew-19 men, 255 11 6 Amount of goods sold, £48 3 8
Average earnings, £15 19 9 ,, cash, 13 9 0 ,, goods, 2 10 9
Men on s.s. 'Erik,' of London, voyage to seal fishing in 1869-Robert Jones, master. Amount of wages and oil-money, etc., £365 10 10 Amount of cash paid Shetland portion of crew-25 men, 326 4 4 Amount of goods sold, 39 6 6 Average earnings, £14 12 5 ,, cash, 13 1 0 ,, goods, 1 11 5
Lerwick, January 29, 1872, GEORGE REID TAIT, examined.
14,509. You were for a number of years engaged as an agent in Lerwick for whaling vessels?-I was.
14,510. How many ships had you generally?-I have had as high as eighteen in one year.
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14,511. For these, I suppose, you would sometimes employ 100 or 200 men?-Fully that; perhaps about 250 men.
14,512. You have heard the evidence of Mr. Tulloch?-I have.
14,513. Are there any points on which you differ from him?-Yes. So far as my own experience is concerned, since the issuing of the Board of Trade regulations in 1867 we have invariably settled with our men at the Shipping Office without deducting our own account
14,514. Were these settlements conducted by yourself, or by one of your clerks?-Principally by one of my clerks; but at times, when he was absent, I generally settled with the men myself.
14,515. Was that clerk Mr. Leisk, who is now your successor in business?-Yes.
14,516. Is the statement correct that these settlements were generally protracted for months, and were only made at intervals as the men came up?-I don't think it is generally correct. When a vessel arrived at Lerwick, the men were generally settled with at once.
14,517. Even before 1867?-Even before 1867. I don't think there is any difference with regard to the dates of settlement.
14,518. Then what effect have the regulations had?-I don't think they have had very much effect, so far as my own experience goes.
14,519. Have they had the effect of reducing the amount of debit against the men in the agents' books?-I don't think so.
14,520. You have not found it necessary in consequence to restrict your advances to the men?-I have not. I just give them much about the same as formerly
14,521. Have you formed any idea from your experience as to what proportion of a man's earnings in an average voyage may be exhausted by his supplies in goods?-I have taken a note of it for the last three years. In some cases it has been as high as 20 per cent.; but where the vessels were successful, the proportion of goods was not by any means so great, compared with the amount of oil-money and wages. In that case it would sometimes be reduced to 5 per cent. In the case of the 'Arctic,' Dundee, last year, £995, 6s. 8d. was paid at the Shipping Office to 29 men, and they afterwards returned and paid me £48, 2s. 5d. for goods That was a very successful year, and the 'Arctic' was particularly fortunate. I may explain that out of the twenty-nine men there were only eight taken on the second voyage The vessel made two voyages, and that return is exclusive of the eight men who went with her the second time.
14,522. So that the advances were really made for the sealing voyage only?-Yes, really for the sealing voyage.
14,523. And I suppose it was from the sealing voyage that the greater part of the returns were made?-No. I think the eight men grossed pretty nearly as much from the second voyage.
14,524. But that was an extraordinary case altogether, was it not?-Our vessels were all fortunate last year, on the whole.
14,525. However, you say that in some cases the amount of goods has been as much as 20 per cent. of the whole earnings?-I think so; but these were exceptional cases.
14,526. After the new regulations were issued, did the men universally come down and settle their accounts as soon as they received their cash at the Custom House?-As a rule, they did.
14,527. Are they expected to do so?-A great number of the men who are customers of my own are always very honourable in settling their accounts.
14,528. But is it understood when you are paying them the money that they are to do so?-Yes.
14,529. Is there an understanding expressed at the time when they are getting the advance, that they are to settle as soon as they receive their wages?-We have never expressed it in words, but I should fancy that there is such an understanding.
14,530. Have your accounts since 1867 been kept in the same way as they were before?-In the same way.
14,531. That is to say, they show the receipt by the seaman of the balance due after deducting his account, and don't show the actual sum received by him at the Custom House?-We generally credit the men with the full amount of wages, oil-money, and seal-money payable to them; then there are the advances prior to the voyage; then there is the sum paid at the Shipping Office;-the full amount is entered against the men; and then the sum returned.
14,532. Do you make a separate entry of that so as to show what has been actually paid?-Yes.
14,533. Have you known any case of a man declining to come down from the Shipping Office to pay his account at the time?- There have been two or three very rare cases.
14,534. What happened when such cases occurred?-The men are still due the amount. That was all that happened.
14,535. Did you make any effort to get them an engagement in the following year?-No; I have never seen them since. I think two of them are south.
14,536. Have you seen any evidence on the part of the men in other cases of an unwillingness to come down?-No. I have never seen any evidence of that at all. We leave the men at the Custom House after we pay them, and they always turn up afterwards and pay us.
14,537. Do you ever accompany them down from the Shipping Office?-We never have to do such a thing. It may be a day or so before they come, but they always pay very honourably.
14,538. Do you generally tell them at the Custom House that they are to come down to the office?-No. I do not recollect ever once telling them that, or giving them the least hint on the subject. I trust to their honour, and they always come forward. I may remark, that masters of vessels coming home from the sealing are very anxious to proceed with all despatch to Dundee or Peterhead, and it is sometimes difficult to make the harbour here. It would be an exceedingly annoying thing to force shipmasters to spend some days perhaps in making Lerwick harbour; so that they are very anxious in passing Shetland, to land their crews at any of the islands; but in that case the expenses of the crew are invariably paid to Lerwick, and it may be a fortnight perhaps before we see the men. Generally speaking, however, they are in town in less than eight days.
14,539. Have you known any cases in which your account for goods furnished was entered in the captain's store-book?-I have known cases of that some years ago-perhaps about three years ago, I should fancy; but am not certain.
14,540. Was that done after the new system was introduced?- There was a special order of the Board of Trade issued afterwards, preventing us from doing so. It was done before that time.
14,541. Did that order prohibit such entries being made in the captain's store-book?-Yes, with the exception of the captain's own account.
14,542. Such entries were made, I presume, to entitle you to deduct the amount of your account at the settlement before the superintendent?-Yes.
14,543. Do you think the remuneration of 2 1/2 per cent. is sufficient for the trouble that an agent has in obtaining engagements for the men and settling with them?-That depends entirely upon the success of the vessel. Some vessels, such as the 'Arctic' in the voyage I have mentioned, pay well enough; but if the vessel is unfortunate, the remuneration is scarcely sufficient.
14,544. But, taking the vessels overhead, is it sufficient?-I don't think it is, considering the time and trouble that are necessary.
14,545. Might not the rate of remuneration be raised by agreement with the owners?-They have refused to increase it. There was an application to that effect made some years ago, and I think they refused to entertain it.
14,546. Then I fancy the agent's principal inducement to continue in the business is that he has an opportunity [Page 365] of supplying the men with goods?-I don't think there are many agents inclined to continue the business now.
14,547. You have given it up yourself?-Yes.
14,548. But your successors are to continue it?-Yes. I think for a year they are to continue it.
14,549. You are not one of the gentlemen who have come voluntarily forward for the purpose of contradicting the official report of Mr. Hamilton?-No; but, so far as my own experience is concerned, I think Mr. Hamilton's report was very much exaggerated. In fact it was not correct, because all our men invariably got paid in full at the Shipping Office, without any deductions, since 1867. From the report, it would appear that the agent deducted his own account, but that was never done by me.
14,550. But if you put your account into the captain's store-book, that was getting deduction of it?-There was a special clause in the ship's articles, entitling us to do that. During the last three years that has been prohibited, so far as the Shetland men's accounts were concerned, but not in the Peterhead ships' articles. I think the clause still holds good with regard to Peterhead crews.
14,551. In your business, were you in the practice of taking out the allotments of wages in your own name?-No, not the allotments.
14,552. Did you give any allotment notes at all?-Yes, since 1867.
14,553. Did you do so in all cases?-No. I have had allotment notes, in a few exceptional cases, made out in my own name, when the men desired that. They volunteered it at the Shipping Office in a few cases; but the great bulk of them were made out in their wives' names and, where they were young men, in the name of their mothers.
14,554. Were there many cases in which no allotment notes were taken at all?-Yes. I think last year we had one crew who had no allotment notes at all; and before 1867 I think no allotment notes were given.
14,555. Since 1867, has it been a common thing for men not to take allotment notes at all?-It is common thing for the men to take them if the voyage is long; but if it is short, the captain does not give allotment notes, because the voyage would be ended before the first note was due.
14,556. Have you known any case in which agents have endeavoured to secure engagements for men who were due them money, or who were running accounts with them, in preference to other men who were not in that position?-I never knew any such case, although I have heard it often talked about.
14,557. Have you heard the captains complaining that the agents wanted them to take men who were indebted to them, rather than the best men who were not in debt?-I have heard Captain M'Lennan say so. I was not his agent at all, but I heard him make such a complaint in our place last year. I did not know anything as to the truth of it.
14,558. Were you acquainted with the system of exchanging lists which Mr. Tulloch spoke of?-Yes; but I have seen none from anybody for the last five or six years, nor have I handed any within that time.
14,559. What was the purpose of these lists?-It was simply for the purpose, if possible, of procuring payment of the balance due, or of ascertaining where the man was employed. The list gave us a sort of idea where he had been in the previous season.
14,560. Was it a list of all the men who were in your debt, and who had not engaged with you, that you handed to the other agents?-It was generally a list of about half a dozen men, whether they engaged or not. It depended upon whether they were customers.
14,561. But if a man engaged with you, it was quite unnecessary for you to hand his name in a list to any other agent?-Yes; it was quite unnecessary then.
14,562. Therefore the list must have contained the names of men who had not engaged with you?-Yes.
14,563. At what period were these lists made out?-About the spring, or some time during the season, prior to the vessels returning from the Arctic regions.
14,564. Have you ever handed lists of that kind to Mr. Leask or to any of his people?-Yes, when Mr. Tulloch was a clerk to him, but never since the regulations of the Board of Trade were issued.
14,565. Have you known any case of a man being paid his wages before the superintendent, and leaving to hand back a large proportion of them to the agent in settlement of his account?- Yes. If he was an honest man, he would come down and settle his account, whatever it was.
14,566. May it have happened in many cases that he had to hand back the whole or a considerable portion of his earnings in that way?-Yes; in the case of a young lad whose earnings were small, his account might amount to the whole.
14,567. Your books, I have no doubt, would show many cases of that kind?-Yes, many cases.
14,568. Did you cease to engage young hands to the same extent as formerly, in consequence of the regulations of the Board of Trade?-Yes. That is the sole reason why so few young hands are engaged now.
Lerwick, January 29, 1872, JOHN ROBERTSON, sen. recalled.
14,569. Have you examined your books for January 1868?-Yes.
14,570. Did you find any entry there of a sale of meal to Thomas Hutchison, Skerries, or to his father?-No; there is no entry of a sale of meal in that month.
14,571. Did you find the price at which your meal was being sold in the following month?-Yes.
14,572. You have no entries to show the price during January?-I cannot find any.
14,573. At what price was it being sold in February 1868?-At 52s. That is the price I charged; but I find the price was rising that year, because in the following month again it was charged 1s. higher; and it is quite possible that I would sell a sack at 50s. in January.
14,574. Is it possible you may have sold a sack of meal without it being entered in your books at all?-Yes; we frequently do that. If the cash is paid down we don't make any entry of it.
14,575. The price of 52s. in February was the credit price?-Yes.
14,576. So that, if a man were buying it over the counter, he would probably get it 1s. cheaper, paying for it at the time?-Yes. We usually give it 1s. cheaper when paid for at the time, than when we give two or three months' credit.
14,577. Do you do an extensive business in meal?-Yes.
14,578. Is there much difference in the price of the meal sold in Shetland, according to the quality of it?-There is a considerable difference in the prices of flour.
14,579. But is the meal generally about the same quality?-Much about the same.
14,580. Is there a difference between south-country meal and Orkney meal and Shetland meal?-There is no Shetland meal sold. We never get any to buy; at least very little.
14,581. I have seen one or two entries of Shetland meal in country places: would it be sold much lower than south-country meal?- Yes, very much lower.
14,582. But it is not an ordinary article of commerce in the country?-No. There are very few who deal in it.
14,583. In comparing the books of different merchants selling meal throughout the country, would it, in your opinion, be fair to assume that a merchant in a country district was selling the same quality of meal that you sell in Lerwick?-Yes. I think they would be selling the same quality. There may be different qualities of meal, but I think they all keep the same qualities. For instance we keep three kinds of flour.
14,584. That is in flour, but in meal is it usual in Shetland to keep more than one quality?-I think not.
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14,585. You keep only one quality of meal?-Yes.
14,586. And you are inclined to believe that merchants in other parts of Shetland will generally be selling the same quality?-I think so. Of course it must be a little dearer in the country, but I have heard of prices being charged, at which I was a little surprised.
14,587. Did you at one time give a note of the prices of meal to a man, Henry Gilbertson?-I was inquiring at my clerk about that, and I found that he did it. Of course he would give the prices which he knew, and which he would find in my book. I may mention that the prices of meal differ very much in one year.
14,588. But probably not within one month, unless there is a sudden rise?-No; not unless there is a sudden rise or a sudden fall. I generally consider that we should charge as little for meal as we can, so that the poor people may get it at as low a price as possible; and we take a less profit on it than on other goods.
Lerwick, January 29, 1872, JOHN LEISK, examined.
14,589. You are a partner of the firm of Leisk & Sandison, merchants and shipping agents, Lerwick?-I am.
14,590. I understand you were previously in the employment of Mr. George Reid Tait, who has now retired from business?-Yes; I had been in his employment since 1862.
14,591. Were you in any other business of the same kind before?-No; I entered business then for the first time.
14,592. Have you heard the evidence which has been given by Mr. Tait?-Yes.
14,593. Do you agree generally with him in the account he has given of the way in which seamen have been discharged and had their wages paid?-Yes. I think it was generally correct.
14,594. Have you been in the habit of going up and paying wages at the Custom House?-I generally went with the men there.
14,595. Is it the custom now to hand them over their wages in cash, deducting only the sums which they have got for the month's advance, the allotment money, and the captain's account for stores?-During the last year, 1871, we only deducted the captain's stores and the first month's advance.
14,596. Were there no allotments?-The men had allotments but we did not deduct them. We were entitled to do so; but I found it simpler not to deduct them, and trust to the men refunding.
14,597. Then the allotments were not entered in the accounts of wages at all?-No.
14,598. Why did you not enter an allotment which the man had really drawn?-Our reason for not doing so was that in some cases they had not received the allotment in full, and they did not understand the accounts very well. In fact we found they understood them much better when they saw the full amount of their wages and were told the amount of advances. It was less trouble to us, and we got on better with the men by doing so.
14,599. Did you not include the allotment in the settlement with the men at the Custom House because it was involved in their accounting with you?-Yes; it became involved with that.
14,600. Had the allotment notes in 1871 been taken in name of the agent?-Very few of them. Perhaps in one or two cases they were, but not more.
14,601. Had they generally been left in his hands?-Yes, generally.
14,602. When not taken in his name, but left in his hands, in whose name were they made out?-Generally in name of their wives or some of their relations.
14,603. Had you found that the wives had come to get advances?-Yes, generally they had.
14,604. But not to the full extent of the allotment money?- Sometimes, and in other cases they did not. In Lerwick they always got supplies to the full extent, but in the country they did not.
14,605. In what way did they get supplies?-Chiefly in money.
14,606. But in the country they did not take money to the full extent of the allotment note?-Sometimes they did. In fact the allotments were generally paid in cash.
14,607. Was it usual for the wives only to take it as they wanted it, and not to draw the full amount of allotment money due at any one time?-They generally had it divided in four; and they came for it weekly, instead of monthly-the allotment note being payable monthly.
14,608. Was it in consequence of that practice of drawing upon the allotment money that you found it more convenient not to put it into the account of wages?-Yes.
14,609. If it had been drawn at monthly intervals the account would have been simpler?-It would.
14,610. And it might have been entered in the account of wages without any trouble?-Yes.
14,611. Why was it not paid over to the women monthly?-They generally wanted money before it was due. It is only due two months after the vessel has left; and they required money before that time and generally got it.
14,612. When the two months had expired, did you not settle accounts with them, so as to clear off all that was due?-In some cases we did. When they were drawing upon us regularly we did so, but we did not make a practice of doing so.
14,613. I suppose you were supplying them with goods at the time as they wanted them?-If they wanted goods we supplied them, but we never asked them to take them.
14,614. Neither did you ask them to take the full amount of their allotment money when it was due?-No.
14,615. Have you since 1862 been in the habit of settling the accounts with seamen engaged in the whaling trade?-Only since the new regulations in 1867.
14,616. Since then has it generally been you who have gone up to the Custom House for Mr. Tait?-Yes, almost invariably, except when I was away.
14,617. Since 1867 has the deduction for your account ever been made in settling at the Custom House-Never since 1868. There was an order issued by the Board of Trade in 1867, but it was not very complete, and there were fuller regulations issued in 1868.
14,618. But the system was altered in 1867?-Yes. There was nothing to prevent us from including supplies for the men in the captain's store-book previous to 1868; but the new regulations prevented that, and we never did it afterwards.
14,619. Then it was only in 1867 that any entries were made in the captain's store-book?-Yes, by us. There was a clause about that in the regulations of 1868 which was not in the regulations of 1867.
14,620. Have you ever read over to the men the account of their transactions with you before going up to settle at the Custom House?-We generally read it over when they come to pay it.
14,621. Is it ever done before they go to the Custom House?-If they wish it, it is done but we never volunteer to do it.
14,622. Has there been any case since 1868 in which settlement of your account has been made or proposed at the Custom House?-I don't remember one. I know it was never allowed by the superintendent. He always counted the money, in every case since 1868.
14,623. Do you know how it was done in the case of other agents?-I don't know.
14,624. Did you hear the evidence of Mr. Tulloch to the effect that up to 1870 he had only paid the cash balance due to the man after deduction of his account, and that the superintendent had not taken care to see that the whole amount was paid, except the legal [Page 367] deductions?-Yes. I understood that that had been allowed in Mr. Tulloch's case, but it was not allowed in ours.
14,625. Had you been expressly debarred from doing so by the superintendent?-Yes.
14,626. Was that done on any occasion when you were about to settle your own account there?-No. We never tried that; but he has repeatedly counted the money, perhaps not every man's, but that of two or three, to see that it was complete.
14,627. Has that been done since 1868?-Yes, always since 1868.
14,628. Do the men universally come down to your shop to settle their accounts after receiving the money?-Yes, I think invariably. I only remember one case in which a man failed to do so. Perhaps there has been one case more, but I don't think it.
14,629. Who was the man whose case you remember?-John Henderson, Yell.
14,630. Have you had occasion to remind the men that they ought to come down and pay their accounts?-No; we do not remind them of it, but we always explain the account of wages as we hand it to each man.
14,631. Is that explanation made in the Custom House?-No; we explain it previously. The man is supposed to be satisfied with it before he goes to the Custom House.
14,632. When making that explanation, do you also tell them that they are bound to come and pay their account for furnishings to you?-We do not tell them so. We tell them that our account is not included in the account of wages, and has to be paid simply when they get their money.
14,633. And the men have always come down without being told, and have paid their accounts at your shop?-Yes. They generally leave the Shipping Office one by one as they are paid, and come down to the shop, sometimes straight, and sometimes they do not appear for a long time afterwards. We never look after them, but just trust to their coming.
14,634. I suppose the amount of your account for outfit and furnishings sometimes exceeds the amount of wages and oil-money due; at least in the case of young hands?-In the case of young hands only; and as rule, in their case it does so. It is a very exceptional thing in the case of older hands. The young hands have less clothes to start with, and they require larger outfit, and their wages are smaller.
14,635. Do young hands invariably come back to you in the second year to get an engagement?-Not invariably.
14,636. What do they do in that case?-I don't know what becomes of them. Perhaps they go to some other fishing, or engage with some other agent.
14,637. Have you known any case of a young hand obtaining his outfit from another shop than that of the agent by whom he has been engaged?-I don't know of any.
14,638. Have you known any case of a young hand obtaining what he wanted for his second or third voyage from another shop than that of the agent who engaged him?-No, I have not been aware of it. If he had money to get at the end of the voyage, he possibly bought what he wanted elsewhere. I don't know of such a case, but it may have happened.
14,639. Was there a correspondence between Mr. Tait and the superintendent hereabout the system of paying seamen at the Custom House within the last three or four years?-There was some correspondence between them in the beginning of 1871.
14,640. Was that after the publication of Mr. Hamilton's report?- Yes.
14,641. How did that correspondence originate?-I think it originated from some document that came down for explanation from the Board of Trade through the shipowners in Dundee. Mr. Tait sent it up to the Shipping Office here, and asked what was complained of in discharging the seamen.
14,642. Did he get an answer?-The correspondence was carried on between Mr. Tait and Mr. Gatherer. I was not concerned in it.
14,643. Had you any interviews with Mr. Gatherer on the subject?-Yes, one. I carried up the document to him which had come from the Board of Trade and conveyed a message to him from Mr. Tait asking what was complained of, as we did not know of anything wrong. He refused to give me an explanation, saying at first that he knew nothing about it. I insisted that there must have been some complaint from him or from this quarter, but he still refused to give me any explanation of it, and I got none.
14,644. Did the correspondence follow upon that interview which you had with him?-Yes.
14,645. Was any explanation obtained in the correspondence?-I am not conversant with the correspondence, and I cannot answer that question.
14,646. Are you engaged in any other branch of the fishing business except the agency for the whaling vessels?-No. With regard to the Shipwrecked Fishermen's Society, I heard Mr. Jamieson's evidence upon that point, and I would like to add, that a man who is wrecked has the option of applying through any agent that he may choose, and is not bound in any way to apply through the man who has sold him his ticket.
14,647. What is the practice in cases of that sort?-The men generally apply through the agent nearest to them.
14,648. Have you known any cases in which men or widows have applied through others than the agent who sold them the ticket, in order that they might obtain money instead of being paid in goods?-I did not know that that was their reason, but it might have been.
14,649. In such cases as those to which I have referred, have they generally asked for money?-They have generally got the money, so far as I know.
14,650. But you are not acquainted with any case in which that has been assigned as the reason for applying to a different agent?- No; I never heard it. They would likely apply to the agent they were best acquainted with, or who lived nearest to them. There are five agents in Lerwick, one of whom is the fishery officer, who is not connected with trade in any way, so far as I am aware.
14,651. Is there anything further you wish to say?-With regard to the time for settling with the men, we generally, as soon as we can get their accounts ready, fix a day for them to appear at the Shipping Office, and we settle then with as many as make their appearance.
14,652. You do not settle with the men on landing?-When the men land, we fix a day for settling with them, and as many men as appear on that day get their wages then, and the rest get them when they call.
14,653. But if you see the men when they land, in order to fix the day with them, why is it that you cannot [be] there and then settle with them?-Because we cannot get the accounts ready. We require some time to make up the accounts of wages, and then they have to get discharges, which take them fully as much time as the accounts. There is a great deal of writing to be done in that; they are all made out in duplicate.
14,654. Do you mean that your own shop accounts have to be made up?-No, our own shop accounts have all been made up long before; it is only the accounts of wages that have to be made up at that time.
14,655. Have they to be made out in duplicate?-No; only the discharges.
14,656. Are not the whole crew discharged in one document?- That is the release; but each man besides has to get a separate discharge, and a certificate of character and ability and conduct.
14,657. Do you ever settle accounts of wages with the men before your own shop accounts are made out and balanced?-Never. We always make out our shop accounts shortly after the vessel sails.
14,658. But you may be giving supplies to the families all the time when the vessel is away?-Yes; but it is very easy to add that. It is always posted up, and can be added to the account at any time. I now produce the store-book of the 'Tay' in order to show you [Page 368] the form in which we understand it has to be kept in order to comply with the regulations.
14,659. Is that book kept by the captain?-Yes, We generally furnish a book for the purpose. The captains are not very careful about that, and we have had a great deal of annoyance with the Shipping Office in consequence.
14,660. Is there a separate store-book, kept in these steamers for the Shetland men?-Yes. The entries are filled in by the captain, and signed by him and each man; but sometimes they are not very particular in getting them signed, and objections have been made to receiving them at the Shipping Office in consequence.
14,661. Who is G.R.?-That is the signature of one of the clerks in the Shipping Office. That book will show the dates on which the men have been paid. The vessel arrived on Sunday 14th May, and we fixed the 17th as the day of settlement, when a few men made their appearance. There are three days allowed by the Merchant Shipping Act for settlement.
14,662. Do you think that is too short a period to enable you to make out all these accounts?-Three days are plenty of time. That settlement was made within the three days. The vessel arrived on the Sunday, which of course does not count, and we had Monday and Tuesday for making out the accounts. The Monday was a mail day, and we put them off until Tuesday. We employed ourselves making them out on that day, and appointed the men to meet us at the Shipping Office, at ten o'clock on the Wednesday morning, and you will see how many men made their appearance out of a crew of fifty men.
14,663. How many of them did so?-I have not counted them over, but the dates are all there when the men were settled with, with the exception of one man, John Robertson, Yell, who has not made his appearance yet. Mr. Tait sent him a verbal message, requesting him to come down and get his wages, but he has not attended to it.
14,664. I see that one of these men was settled with on 15th May, being the day after the vessel arrived?-That has been an exceptional case. The man had probably been anxious to get away, but I don't remember.
14,665. I also see that a number of them did come forward on the 17th, or within a few days after it?-Yes. They came just when it suited them. I think there were only about a dozen who came on the 17th out of the fifty.
14,666. How soon were they all cleared off, except the one man who has not come yet?-I could not answer that question without referring to the book, but most of them would be within a month. There are always a few exceptional cases in every ship, of men who either do not require the money, or who have something which prevents them from coming.
14,667. Had you ever got a ship cleared off so rapidly before?- Frequently.
14,668. But not before 1871?-Yes; in 1870 and 1869 we got them settled with as rapidly. The settlements are never put off by the agents, but the men may stay away as long as they like of their own free will.
14,669. I suppose the agent seldom continues to furnish supplies after the men have returned from their whaling voyage?-They don't get any supplies afterwards, as a rule.
14,670. Is there anything more you wish to say?-There are some parts of Mr. Hamilton's report which I think I ought to notice.
14,671. Have you heard any part of the evidence of Mr. Robertson or Mr. Jamieson with regard to that report?-I heard a part of Mr. Jamieson's evidence this morning, but I did not hear Mr. Robertson's. Mr. Hamilton says, 'Any man who carried his custom to any other shop than to that of the agent employing him, would run the risk of being a marked man.' That is incorrect, so far as my experience goes.
14,672. Have you known any case of a man who did carry his custom to another shop?-Yes, I have known several cases of that kind, but I could not name them. There have been men who had money in their possession at the time of engaging, who did not purchase their outfit from us.
14,673. Would there be one in 1870 of all the men engaged by you?-I could not say; but I have known some of the men who purchased their outfit from us for cash at the time of engaging and who had no accounts whatever.
14,674. Were any lists exchanged of these men?-Never, to my knowledge.
14,675. The only lists you know of were those which related to men in your debt who had not paid up this debt?-Yes, and that was only previous to 1867.
14,676. Have there been no such lists exchanged since then?-Not that I remember.
14,677. Have you verbally mentioned the names of such men to other agents, and made inquiries about them since 1867?-I don't remember any particular case.
14,678. May you have done so?-Yes.
14,679. And many such inquiries have been made at you?-It is possible. I don't remember of it being done, but I would not say that it had.
14,680. Does it happen in your experience that green hands have generally to hand back the whole of their earnings to the agent?- Green hands frequently do so, where their wages are low.
14,681. And they may perhaps remain still in the agent's debt?- Possibly in some cases they do, but it is the interest of the agent now to have as few green hands as possible.
14,682. Was that his interest before 1867?-Not so much as it is now. Mr. Hamilton also says that it is the interest of the agent to delay the settlement until he gets the men in debt to him again. That is not the fact.
14,683. Do you mean that it is not the fact that it is his interest to do so?-It is not his interest; and it is not the fact that he does it, to my knowledge.
14,684. Is it not the interest of the agent to get man to take goods from him?-It is the interest of the agent to sell goods to a man, but not to get him into his debt.
14,685. But if a man takes goods from the agent, is he not in the agent's debt?-He does not leave it as debt. When a man gets his wages, it is the interest of the agent to sell as much goods to him as possible; but that is a cash transaction over the counter after the settlement
14,686. Are there many such cash transactions?-A good many-not so many at the time of settlement; but we see the men repeatedly after they have been paid.
14,687. Do they come back to you and spend part of the cash they have got?-Yes. I cannot tell whether it is the same cash or not, but they do spend cash. We see them almost daily.
14,688. When you have been settling in Mr. Tait's office with the men who had been at Greenland, was it usual, when they came down from the Custom House, to ask them if they wanted any goods?-Sometimes we did that, and sometimes not; but we never pressed them to take goods.
14,689. But it was not unusual to ask them?-We might ask them if they required anything, and sometimes they bought something from us after settlement.
14,690. In that case would it be added to their account at the time, or would there just be a handing back of the cash to you for the goods?-Just a handing back of the cash.
14,691. Such purchases are usually made after settlement?-They are always made after settlement, at least almost invariably; but occasionally I have seen men purchasing goods and laying them aside until they got their money, and then paying for them. In that case the goods were not entered into any book, but were just put up into a parcel and laid aside for them.
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Lerwick, January 29, 1872, Dr. ROBERT COWIE, examined.
14,692. You are a medical practitioner in Lerwick?-I am.
14,693. Are you a native of Shetland?-Yes; a native of Lerwick.
14,694. Have you lived here almost all your life?-Yes; except when I was south for my education.
14,695. I presume you have had many opportunities of mixing with all orders of people here in the course of the practice of your profession, and also previously to some extent?-I have.
14,696. You are acquainted with the fact that a system of barter prevails very extensively in different parts of the islands?-Yes, almost universally.
14,697. And that both fish and hosiery are paid for, to a considerable extent, in that way?-Yes.
14,698. With regard to hosiery, has it come within your own knowledge that knitters are paid in goods to an extent that is unwholesome for themselves and for the community?-Yes, in drapery goods.
14,699. In what way has that been forced upon your attention?- Sometimes in the discharge of my professional duties, I have observed that there was an utter disproportion between the clothing and the food of these knitters. I am no judge as to the value or quality of the goods, but many of them are clothed in a very gaudy, showy manner, and in a way quite inconsistent with their position in life. I have reason to know at the same time that their food is utterly insufficient. I have known knitting girls, one might almost say, starving or very nearly, starving, when they were at the same time very well dressed or dressed in a very showy manner; and I would give an illustration of that. I remember one Sunday, between one and two o'clock in the afternoon, being called in to see a poor man, in Lerwick. He was very ill, and evidently dying. He asked me if I could prescribe anything that would relieve him, and I replied that I knew of no medicine that could really do him good,-that the only thing I could recommend was some sherry wine and beef tea. His reply was, if it came to that, it was utterly out of the question, for he had not the means of getting such luxuries. He told me that all the money they had in the house was a single shilling, and that they had lived for some days, as far as I remember, entirely upon tea and bread. A few minutes after having that conversation with him, I saw the poor man's daughter-who was his only daughter, so far as I am aware, and who lived with him-going to church, dressed like a fine lady. That struck me as being a very deplorable state of matters. Here were a family who were on the verge of starvation, and unable to get medical comforts for their dying parent, and yet the daughter, who was a knitter, was I might almost say magnificently dressed.
14,700. Is that the strongest and most striking instance of the kind that has come under your notice?-I think it is, in that form.
14,701. Have you seen other instances in which you were led to believe that the state of things was similar?-Yes, very similar. On many occasions knitters have consulted me as to their health, complaining of certain forms of dyspepsia. I inquired as to their food, and found it was very insufficient, while at the same time they were well dressed, at least apparently well dressed. But I would remark as to their dress, that I have reason to believe that the dress which the knitting girls in Lerwick and girls of the lower orders all over Shetland wear is not adapted to the climate. There is too much cotton in it; it is too thin, and it is insufficient to protect them from the inclemency of the weather. In former times in Shetland a great deal of the clothing worn by the females was home-made: it consisted of woollen garments, which were much better adapted to the climate.
14,702. Is it not the case that in the country districts the women still make the greater part of their own clothing?-I suppose they do; but what I intended to refer to just now was their inside clothing. I think there is too much cotton worn now, and not sufficient warm worsted clothing.
14,703. Then the worsted underclothing which the Shetland women make is entirely for the market, not for their own use?- I fear they sell it and buy cotton underclothing instead. I believe the disproportion, as I may term it, which exists between the food and the clothing of these knitters is chiefly, if not entirely, due to the system of truck by which they are paid.
14,704. Do you refer to the difficulty which they have in getting money for their work?-Yes; and to the fact that they get goods, chiefly drapery goods, for it.
14,705. Do you think that induces them to take larger quantity of dress than they really need?-I think so.
14,706. But at the same time you say that they do not have a sufficient amount of good underclothing?-Yes. I do not think they have a sufficient amount of good, warm, substantial underclothing for the climate in which they live.
14,707. Might they not get that if they required it in return for their work?-I suppose they might, but the fact is that they very seldom have it. They rather prefer to take showy outside clothing.
14,708. If women are reduced to distress for food, but yet have a considerable supply of handsome clothing, would you not suppose it natural that they should have recourse to the pawnbroker's shop in winter, or when they were in straits?-I would, but I am not quite sure if there is a pawnbroker's shop here. There is a sort of pawn in the town, but I don't think it is much resorted to. I have no doubt, if they were in a large city, they would resort to the pawnbroker's; but pawnbroking is practically unknown here. The people, some way or other, have not got into the way of it.
14,709. Have you known any cases in which women, in a state of distress for food, have sold their clothes to private individuals for it, or have endeavoured to do so?-I am aware that there are one or more old women employed, either regularly or occasionally, in going round the houses and hawking clothes which had been obtained by knitters for their goods. On one occasion I met in with one of these women. I was seeing a patient in the house of one of the lower orders, and the woman came in with some article of children's clothing to sell. I inquired how she had got it, and I was told that she was hawking it for some person who had got it for knitting goods.
14,710. Then she had not bought it, but was selling it as the agent of another person?-Yes. She was selling it, as I understood, as the agent of the knitter.
14,711. Have you had opportunities of obtaining any knowledge with regard to the amount of immorality which prevails in Lerwick?-I have heard, and I have reason to believe, that it prevails to a very considerable extent; but I have had no means of obtaining any accurate knowledge on the subject.
14,712. Are you aware whether the amount of professional prostitution is greater in Lerwick than in other places of the same size?-I am not very well acquainted with small towns similar to Lerwick; there are only one or two small towns that I know well. I am better acquainted with large cities, such as Edinburgh and Aberdeen; but I scarcely think that in Lerwick there is a greater amount of professionals prostitution, in proportion to the size of the place, than there would be in a seaport town of a similar size.
14,713. Would you say there was a larger amount of occasional prostitution?-I believe there is. I don't think I could prove it, but I have good reason to believe so.
14,714. Is that from knowledge which you have obtained in the discharge of your professional duties, or is it from general observation?-It is partly from hearsay, and partly from general observation.
14,715. Can you ascribe that in any degree to the system of barter which prevails?-I think it may to a large extent be accounted for by that system; because the knitters, I believe, are insufficiently supplied with food, and they are supplied with plenty of handsome clothing. They are thus led to walk about the streets good deal, and are in that way led into evil courses.
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14,716. Is that an opinion which you have entertained for some time?-Yes. I think it is to be expected in the ordinary course of events, that if women, have insufficient food and plenty of showy clothing, they will be more apt to go astray than others who have comfortable homes, and plenty of food and clothing in keeping with their position in life.
14,717. You are aware, I presume, that statistics show the amount of illegitimacy in Shetland to be less than it is in many parts of Scotland?-I am aware of that.
14,718. Is not that inconsistent to some extent, or apparently inconsistent, with the opinion you have expressed about the state of morals in Lerwick?-It is apparently inconsistent; but I am afraid that in Shetland we get credit for a higher state of morality than we are entitled to, in the country districts.
14,719. Do you mean that the system of registration here is not efficient?-I mean merely that the Registrar General's returns do not always show that illegitimacy corresponds with immorality.
14,720. Is that in consequence of the marriages being celebrated at such times as show the existence of what clergymen call antenuptial fornication?-It is partly in consequence of that, but not altogether.
14,721. Then is it possible to reconcile these statistics entirely with the prevalence of an excessive amount of immorality?-I have heard attempts to explain it, but I don't know if they were satisfactory. However, it is such a delicate matter that I would rather not enter further into it.
14,722. Have you no satisfactory explanation to give on the subject?-No.
14,723. Has it fallen within your observation, that the want of food has had any physical effect upon the women employed in knitting?-I remember being recently told by a respectable married woman, who was very well acquainted with the habits of knitting girls, that many of them enjoyed very good health, and felt pretty well and vigorous during the first two or three days of the week, but became languid towards the end of it; and she explained that circumstance in this way: These girls got an extra supply of food on the Saturday night, and they walked about a good deal during the Sunday, which, as it were, recruited them; but towards the end of the week their supplies got exhausted, and they did not enjoy much out-door exercise, and therefore became languid.
14,724. How do you account for their obtaining an extra supply of food on the Saturday night?-They were probably settling then. Many of them, I may explain, are not mere knitters, but are otherwise occupied. They are very ready, I believe, to take other work when they can get it, and many of them live not wholly by their own exertions, but partly on their parents and friends; therefore there would be extra supplies of food and groceries going into the house on the Saturday night, which they had enjoyed during the first days of the week.
14,725. Have you been aware of cases in which the way of dealing has led to the formation of imprudent habits on the part of the women?-I think they are very extravagant as regards dress.
14,726. Do they also expend a great deal of money on what may be called luxuries in food, rather than upon what is necessary, when they have money?-I think they do. The lower orders in Shetland use a very large amount of tea, much more than is good for them. It is very strong tea, and they take it very frequently during the day-I think to an unwholesome extent. I think it injures their health very considerably.
14,727. Is oatmeal still used to a great extent as an article of diet?-It is used in the country districts, but I think not so much in Lerwick. Here it is more loaf bread that is used.
14,728. In what form is oatmeal generally used in the houses of the poorer Shetlanders?-I think it is chiefly in cakes, what would be called scones in Scotland. I don't think it is so much in porridge, so far as I am aware.
14,729. Is that the bulk of the diet of a fisherman's family?-That, and fish and potatoes.
14,730. Don't you think that, taking the Shetlanders as a body, they are as well off with regard to diet and clothing as any similar class in Scotland?-I think the peasantry in the country are so, on the whole. The lower orders in Lerwick differ considerably from those in the country districts; there are more employments open to them. I think the people in the country are better fed, on the whole, than those in Lerwick. They enjoy more fresh air, and are a better-off class of people, on the whole, than the lower orders here.
14,731. Has any special matter come within your observation that you think of mentioning with regard to the system of barter in other trades than hosiery?-Nothing very special. I think the system of the men being compelled to fish to the landlords or tacksmen on certain estates is a bad system, and should be abolished. One of the many evils resulting from it is that very often men don't know whether they have money or are in debt. They may think they have means, and at settling time they may discover they have nothing.
14,732. Would that not happen all the same if the creditor were a merchant who had no connection with the land?-It might, it arises from the system of long credits.
14,733. Have you known cases in which a man was under a false impression as to the balance at his banker's, as one may say?-I have. The other day a man in the country sent for me to visit his wife professionally; and on leaving he told me he had not the means in the house, but that he had sufficient to pay me, and good deal more, at the merchant's. I afterwards saw the merchant with whom he dealt, and he told me something similar. He also told me to send the man's account to him, which I did; but a few weeks afterwards the merchant wrote me that he had been mistaken,- that he found, instead of the man having means in his hands, that he was in debt, and he had had to advance him his rent, and that I could not get my account paid in the meantime; but that he would do his best to get it for me at a future time.
14,734. Is it a common thing to have accounts paid in that way through the merchant?-Very common.
14,735. The merchant, in short, appears in many cases to transact the whole of a man's business affairs?-Yes; he appears to pay his rent very often, and to transact other business for him.
14,736. He pays accounts for him of all sorts?-Yes.
14,737. So that the man may know nothing at all of his money affairs?-He may know little or nothing.
14,738. Do you speak of that as being a general thing within your own knowledge?-Yes.
14,739. Have you formed any opinion as to the effect of that system of dependence upon the merchant upon the character of the people generally?-Yes; they are deficient in that sturdy independence, if I may so express it, which characterizes the peasantry throughout the rest of Scotland. The system fosters a dependent, time-serving, deceitful disposition, and it cripples enterprise.