15,340. Can you point to any of these transactions in the book?- No; I don't recollect whether the articles that were entered in the book were got from knitters or from other parties. Sometimes they wanted cash for their goods, because they could not get cash at the shop where they were dealing.
15,341. But, in these circumstances, the people who were refused the cash got the goods, as you understood at the time?-Yes, I understood so.
15,342. And they took the goods, and brought them to you and got the cash?-Yes.
15,343. Did you know that these goods were got at a shop where hosiery was taken?-I cannot tell; I never asked about that. They may have said so but perhaps that might have been false.
15,344. Did they give the name of any party from whom they had got the goods?-No; they just said they had got the goods when they could not get the cash.
15,345. May that have been said half a dozen times?-Not so many. I only recollect hearing of it once or twice.
15,346. Do you say that it has not happened half a dozen times in the ten or eleven years that you have been in business?-I don't recollect it happening so often as that. I just recollect hearing it spoke about.
15,347. Do people sometimes come to you yet offering articles for sale, although you have given up that part of your business?-Yes, occasionally; but not so much now as before I gave it up.
15,348. Do you not sometimes take them still?-I don't think I have taken any since the 1st entry in the book on April 15, 1870.
15,349. Are you quite sure that you have never bought any article at all in your shop since then?-Not that I recollect.
15,350. Would you be likely to forget if you had done it?-I don't know; but I have not done it, so far as my recollection goes. I have once bought a jacket which I wore myself; but it was from a friend, a party that I knew, and it was not a thing that I was in the way of buying.
15,351. Can you swear that you have not had more than half a dozen applications, in the whole course of your business, from women whom you knew or supposed to be knitters, asking you to give them money or provisions for goods which they had got for their hosiery?-They never asked provisions for them. If they wanted provisions, they took them out afterwards; they just asked for the cash, and I gave them what I thought the article was worth to me.
15,352. Do you swear that you have not had more than half a dozen such applications in the course of your business?-I don't recollect more than one or two. Of course, I did not ask them pointedly where they had got the articles, or how they had got them, except merely that I wished to know that the articles had not been got in a dishonest way.
15,353. But I see that a great number of the entries in the book relate to transactions with females?-Yes.
15,354. Can you swear that the majority of these women were not knitters who were in the habit of dealing with hosiery shops, and who came to you and got cash for the goods which they had got there?-That might have been so, but I really cannot say.
15,355. Can you swear that one out of every two of these women did not come and sell goods to you which she had got in that way?-She might have got them in that way, but I cannot tell.
15,356. Were most of the purchases which you made, of new articles or of old?-The greater part of the things had been worn.
15,357. Do you think there was any other way in which the women got these articles, except by getting them from the hosiery shops?-Certainly.
15,358. Were there some of them which had been got at the agents' shops where the women were supplied, while the men were away at the fishing?-They might have had accounts at these shops, and got goods there in part payment for the men's wages.
Lerwick, January 30, 1872, Mrs. BARBARA DALZELL, examined.
15,359. Do you live in Scalloway Road, Lerwick?-Yes.
15,360. Have you been in the habit of knitting and selling your goods, or have you knitted with your own wool?-I have both knitted with merchants' wool and with wool of my own.
15,361. Have you knitted for a long time, and had a great deal of experience in it?-I have knitted for about thirty-two or thirty-three years. During that time I have knitted mostly with my own wool.
15,362. How have you been paid for your hosiery?-Either in money or goods.
15,363. Have you ever been paid altogether in money?-Yes, often.
15,364. Is it not the usual way in Lerwick to pay for hosiery in goods only?-Yes, that is generally the way in which most of them do.
15,365. Why has an exception been made in your case?-I don't think any exception has been made with me. Whenever I brought a good article to the merchants I asked money for it, and when I thought it was an inferior article I never thought of asking for money.
15,366. Was it generally very fine articles that you knitted?-Not particularly fine, but I have sometimes knitted very fine articles.
15,367. Was it only for the very fine articles that you got the money?-It was only for them that I asked the money.
15,368. How much was the largest sum you got at one time?-I think I have got as much as £5 at one time from Mr. Arthur Laurenson, but I am not sure; his books will show.
15,369. Did you get that money for one article?-Not for one article. It was for a number.
15,370. Was it on an account with him that you got that?-Yes; but I do not remember the exact sum.
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15,371. What did you get it for?-There was a cloak and several other articles, and the balances upon several shawls which I had been leaving with him.
15,372. For what purpose did you get so much money?-I cannot remember exactly. I had a reason at the time for asking so much, but I don't remember asking the money when I sold the articles.
15,373. But you had a special reason for wanting that money?- Yes. I would rather not mention what it was, unless it is necessary.
15,374. Did you tell Mr. Laurenson the reason?-Yes.
15,375. Did you get all the money that was due to you at that time?-Yes. I sent a girl who was living in my house at the time to Mr. Laurenson for the cash, and he sent the balance by her, and a line along with it to show that he had paid it.
15,376. Was there not a discount taken off because you had got it in cash?-There was nothing taken off.
15,377. What was the next largest sum that you got at any one time?-I have got £3 at one time from Mr. Robert Linklater.
15,378. Was there any special reason for that?-I got it for a very fine cloak which I sold to him.
15,379. Did you sell it to him for a money price?-I sold it, and asked the money, and got it from him there and then.
15,380. Did you ever get as much as that on any other occasion?- No; but I have often got £2, which is generally considered the price of a good cloak.
15,381. Did you sell it to them for that in cash?-Yes.
15,382. Did you ever get money when you knitted for any merchant
15,383. How much did you get then?-I can scarcely remember. I knitted at one time for Mr. Gilbert Harrison, and I always got money from him when I asked it, whether it was a large sum or a small sum. The firm is now Harrison & Sons, but it was before young Mr. Harrison's time that I got that money. I don't think they deal in hosiery now; at least I have not dealt with them for a long time.
15,384. Have you dealt with any other merchant and got money in such large sums as that?-I once had a transaction with Mr. Wm. Johnston, and I asked in money and £1 in goods, and I got it.
15,385. There was a letter sent to me in which it was stated that you could tell me a story about a certain merchant in town: do you know anything about that letter?-No. I was wondering who had mentioned my name to you.
15,386. [Shown letter dated 9th January 1872, and signed W. Linklater.] Do you know that handwriting?-I do not, but I know what it refers to. It was merely a private thing that I was telling to another party about having taken some hosiery to a merchant.
15,387. Do you know the party who writes the letter?-I don't think I do.
15,388. What does the letter refer to?-I bought some stockings from a merchant in Lerwick, and I was selling some shawls to him, but he did not like to take hosiery in return for his stockings. He said he would take one half money and one half shawls, and I went home, and I think it was either 20s. or 30s. that I got from my husband to pay one half of the price.
15,389. What quantity of hosiery had you bought?-I think it was rather more than £2 worth.
15,390. Was that for your own family?-No. It was for a party who had sent to me for some hosiery, and I went to that merchant's shop for it.
15,391. Do you sometimes deal in hosiery yourself?-I sometimes send work south, but I oftener sell it here. It is a long time since that affair happened; and I think the price came to nearly £3, but I don't remember the amount.
15,392. How long ago was it?-Perhaps 12 years ago, or perhaps not so much.
15,393. Was it the practice at that time, as it is now, to pay for hosiery in goods?-Yes.
15,394. But when you bought hosiery, was it understood you were to pay for it in cash?-There was no understanding about it. I just went to the shop for the stockings, and the merchant agreed to take one half of the payment in hosiery and the other half in cash, which I paid to him. I asked his reason for doing that, and he said that by taking the hosiery it was turning his goods twice over for only one profit.
15,395. Was that the only transaction you ever had with that merchant?-I had plenty of transactions with him before, but not many after.
15,396. Do you sometimes buy a great quantity of wool?-Yes; but it is very difficult to get the best wool.
15,397. Where do you buy it?-Sometimes from country merchants, generally from Fetlar. I get some worsted from William Tulloch, Fetlar. I generally pay 4d. a cut for it. The finest is 6d. a cut; that is the kind which is used in making fine shawls and fine cloaks in Shetland.
15,398. You don't buy it in wool yourself, but in worsted?-Yes. There are some of the people in Lerwick who buy it in fine wool, and send it to the country to be spun, before they can get it really fine.
15,399. Are they not able to buy the finest worsted in the shops in Lerwick?-I never could do so.
Lerwick, January 30, 1872, GEORGE JAMIESON, examined.
15,400. Have you a farm at North Roe, on the estate of Busta?- Yes. I have only had one crop there.
15,401. Have you been a fisherman?-Yes, all my life.
15,402. Whom did you fish for?-I have fished for different people in my time. When I was on Messrs. Hay's property I fished for them; but they suspended me from fishing, and I would not go again. They wanted to put me into a boat with some old men. I would not agree to that, and I lost my fishing for four years.
15,403. Were you at liberty to fish for whom you pleased?-I was not. They stopped other fish-curers from taking me during these four years.
15,404. How did they do that?-I offered to go for different men, and they would not take me for fear of Mr. Greig, Messrs. Hay's factor at North Roe.
15,405. Are the tenants on the Gossaburgh estate bound to fish for Messrs. Hay & Co.?-Yes. I was bound to do so all the time I was there. One year I agreed with Mr. Anderson, Hillswick, to go to the fishing for him, and I came with my share of fishing lines, but he would not give his men a share of lines to make up the fishing with; and he gave us an old boat that we would not risk our lives in, and he would not give us any meal.
15,406. Are you also employed in keeping paupers?-Yes, I have two old women-one from the parish of Lerwick, and one from the parish of Northmaven. I have £8 for the one from Northmaven. I only had 13s. for five months for the pauper who belonged to Lerwick, but now they have given me 1s. 6d. a week, which comes to £3, 18s. a year.
15,407. Who pays you these sums?-Mr. Greig.
15,408. Does he pay you for both the paupers?-Yes.
15,409. Does he keep the post office?-No; but they put the money into his hands, and most of it has been taken out in truck. He refuses to give me any money except a mere trifle.
15,410. Whom did you make your bargain about these paupers with?-One was with Mr. Johnston of Lerwick, and the other was with Mr. Bruce at Urrafirth.
15,411. Do you not receive post-office orders or money from Mr. Bruce or Mr. Johnston for the maintenance of these paupers?-It comes to Mr. Greig; I cannot say how it comes.
15,412. Have you ever asked that the money should be sent to you direct?-No.
15,413. Is Mr. Greig a member of the parochial board of Northmaven parish?-I believe he is.
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15,414. But he is not a member of the Lerwick parochial board?- No.
15,415. How does he happen to pay you money for Lerwick parish?-They send it to him.
15,416. Have you ever asked him for the whole of that money in cash?-No.
15,417. Why?-Because he seemed that he would not pay it in cash.
15,418. How did he seem so?-He said he would not do so, and that there was no use of him taking the trouble if I would not take the greater part of it out in truck.
15,419. When did he say that to you?-He has said it to me several times. He said it some time after I got the first pauper, who belonged to Northmaven. That is about two years back.
15,420. Did he say it to you when you went for the first payment?-Yes.
15,421. Had you not run up an account at his shop before the money was due?-I had not.
15,422. Did you owe him anything then?-I owed him nothing. He was my landmaster then, but I did not owe him anything.
15,423. Is that money paid quarterly?-It is paid monthly here.
15,424. Did you ever ask Mr. Greig for a monthly payment in cash?-I did not.
15,425. Why?-I cannot tell. I suppose it was because we always had his shop to go to for things that we required for the paupers, and we thought we need not ask for cash.
15,426. Were you not always due him as much as the monthly payment before it became due?-I was not.
15,427. Were you not due him something?-Yes, a small thing, but not the whole of the money.
15,428. Did you ever ask him for the balance in money?-Yes.
15,429. Did you get it?-Yes.
15,430. Then, when was it that Mr. Greig said he could not give it to you in money, but that you must take it out in truck?-Just when they sent the paupers to me.
15,431. Are you sure there was not something due to Mr. Greig then for supplies to the paupers?-There was nothing due.
15,432. Had you not got any supplies from him for these women before the first payment was due?-Yes, I got what I wanted whenever I asked it.
15,433. Then there was something due to him for that?-Yes; he never refused to give me anything for them as soon as I came for it.
15,434. There was something due to him for these supplies at the time when the first monthly payment became due?-Yes, but not to the whole amount of it.
15,435. Why did you say that you were not due him anything?-I had to take out the things because I could not get the money.
15,436. Did you ask him for the balance?-I did.
15,437. How much was there due to you at that time?-I cannot tell, because we don't keep accounts.
15,438. Have you no pass-book?-No.
15,439. Did Mr. Greig actually say to you that you must take your payment in truck?-He said we must take part of it in truck, and that he would not pay it all in money.
15,440. Did he use the word truck?-Yes.
15,441. Did he not say that you were to take part of it in goods?- Goods were the same as truck, and he meant that we were to take meal or tea, or anything, out of his shop.
15,442. But what did he actually say?-He said we must take goods out of his shop for part of the money, because he could not pay it all in money. He said that the first time I went to him.
15,443. When did he say it again?-He said it very often.
15,444. When did he say it last?-This winter.
15,445. Where did he say it?-In his shop at North Roe.
15,446. Were you asking for money at that time?-Yes. I asked him then for the 13s. which came for the pauper from Lerwick, and he said he would give me that, but that he need not have the trouble of paying it all down in money.
15,447. Had you not got a lot of supplies at that time?-No.
15,448. Do you swear that, when you asked him for the 13s., you were owing him nothing for supplies?-I was owing him nothing.
15,449. Had you got any supplies from him before that?-I had got nothing from him for the pauper from Lerwick.
15,450. But had you got supplies for your own household?-I had; but I was due him nothing.
15,451. Had all the supplies that you had got from Mr. Greig for other parties up to that time been paid for?-They were all paid for when I asked for the 13s.
15,452. Had you any account due at the-shop at that time?-I cannot tell. I don't think it. There could be nothing due.
15,453. You said just now that all the supplies you had ever got were paid for at that time?-They were paid for.
15,454. And then you say in the next sentence that you cannot say whether they were paid for or not?-I asked for nothing for this woman until the came.
15,455. Do you keep a separate account for every woman that you have?-I believe we do.
15,456. Do you know anything about your accounts?-I don't know a great deal about them.
15,457. Are you sure that Mr. Greig has told you that you must take part of your payment for the paupers in goods?-Yes.
15,458. Is not all that he has done merely to keep part of the money that was already due to him for supplies which you had got?-He said he would not pay it all in money. That is all I have got to say about it.
15,459. Did he not say that he would not give it all to you in money because you were due him something for supplies you had already got?-I was never due Mr. Greig anything.
15,460. Had you not got supplies from him before he said that?-I had got supplies, but they never ran up to the sum which I had to get payment of from him. There was always money due to me.
15,461. Were you ever due Mr. Greig anything at all?-I was not.
15,462. Did you not owe him money for the supplies you had got?-We never sought supplies that would run up to the sum which we had to get. There was always something in his hand.
15,463. Do you understand what it is to be due a man money?- Yes.
15,464. Do you understand that you are due a man money when you have got goods from him and not paid for them?-I know that.
15,465. Were you not due Mr. Greig money when you had got these goods and had not paid for them?-I was.
15,466. Was it not at the time when you were due him money for these supplies that he said he could not give you the money which was due for the paupers?-He said, first of all, that we were not to ask all money when we were due him for goods.
15,467. Is there anything else you wish to say?-Nothing.
15,468. You have given your evidence in such a manner, that I cannot allow you any expenses for attending here.
Lerwick, January 30, 1872, ROBERT IRVINE, examined.
15,469. Are you a broker in Lerwick?-I am a general dealer. I deal in new as well as second-hand goods.
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15,470. Do you deal in provisions?-Very little; mostly in soft goods.
15,471. Do you make many purchases of soft goods and wearing apparel over your counter?-Of wearing apparel, but not of hosiery.
15,472. Do you sometimes purchase articles which are not made up, such as cotton?-Yes, and new articles too. If a man buys an article that does not fit him, and he comes back to me with it, I will take it from him and sell him another, or give him the cash.
15,473. Is this [showing] the book in which you enter all your transactions?-Yes.
15,474. Are women in the practice of selling goods to you which they have got in the shops?-There is very little of that done. I cannot say that I ever recollect a case of it.
15,475. Have you many transactions with women?-Very few. It is mostly men's apparel that I get.
15,476. I see that in your book most of the entries are in the names of men?-Yes; I always deal with men, except on rare occasions.
15,477. Are you the only broker of this kind in Lerwick?-I think I am the principal one; I have a licence as a broker.
15,478. Can you say that you have not had any transactions with women who might have been knitters, and who were disposing of goods which they had got for their hosiery?-I cannot tell exactly. Sometimes they may have come in with goods which they had got in that way, but it is very little of that kind of thing that comes my way.
15,479. Have you had many dealings with women whom you knew to be knitters?-Very few. I don't know that I recollect a single case. As I have said, it is generally men's work that I get.
15,480. Do you enter every transaction which you have in the book which you have produced?-Every one.
15,481. Is it not possible that some purchases of that kind from women are not entered in it?-No; I do not want to omit them, because I want to punish them if they are rogues.
15,482. But these women will be perfectly honest in making such sales?-Yes, but I don't think there has ever been such a case in my business.
15,483. Have you ever bought any lines from women?-I never saw one offered; and even if it had been offered, I would not have bought it or meddled with it at all.
15,484. Do you know anything at all about the lines?-I don't recollect ever seeing one in my life because I am not in the way of it.
15,485. Have you heard of them?-I have heard of them repeatedly.
15,486. I suppose the trade of a broker is not a very flourishing one in Lerwick?-No, it is very dull; but I am a dealer also, and can make up things otherwise, which helps me through.
15,487. Do you know whether that business of buying second-hand articles is practised by any people who act as hawkers and who hawk through the country?-I don't know of any people who do that.
Lerwick, January 30, 1872, FRANCIS GIFFORD, examined.
15,488. Are you a seaman, living in Bressay?-I am.
15,489. Have you gone on sealing and whaling voyages for a good many years?-Yes, I went there during the first years of my time, and then I went south; but afterwards I have been at the sealing and whaling again.
15,490. Have you always engaged with some agent in Lerwick?- Yes, I have engaged with them all except Mr. Tulloch; I never went out from him.
15,491. Have you always received payment of your wages on your return from the voyage?-Yes, for the last three or four years I have always got my money at the Custom House.
15,492. Before the regulations were introduced according to which you were paid at the Custom House, did you settle with the agent at his shop?-Yes.
15,493. Did you always get your money on these occasions?-Not exactly.
15,494. Had you an account then for outfit and supplies?-Yes.
15,495. Did you always get the balance that was due?-Yes, I got it, but very little money.
15,496. Was that because you had a large account?-I don't know.
15,497. Do you remember some years ago being engaged by Mr. Joseph Leask on a voyage to what is called the west-ice?-Yes.
15,498. Is that in Davis Straits?-No, it is to the northward.
15,499. Do you remember applying for your wages in money in that year?-Yes.
15,500. Did you get it at once whenever you asked for it?-Yes.
15,501. Did you sail in the same vessel again that year?-Yes; but Mr. Leask was not for me going in her again, because I had got my money. If it had not been for the captain I would not have got with the vessel, but he said he would have me. The vessel was the 'Camperdown,' and that occurred in 1866.
15,502. What was Mr. Leask's reason for not engaging you for that vessel?-I don't know.
15,503. You said it was because you got your money?-I believe Mr. Leask thought I was for the double voyage, but I was only for the single voyage; and when I came home after the first voyage I got settled with him, because at that time I was intending to go south. I came over and got my money, but before the end of the week the vessel returned again, going to Davis Straits, and I went up to see if I could get a chance to go in her. When Captain Bruce told me to go and get my things and come with the vessel again, Mr. Leask was wild, and said I should not get a chance.
15,504. Had you intended at first not to go on the second voyage that year?-I was anxious to go but I did not know that the Captain was to put me down for the double voyage.
15,505. Why was Mr. Leask wild?-I don't know; I suppose it was because he thought I was only for the single voyage, and I came over and got my money.
15,506. Would he not have given you your money if he had known you were going the other voyage?-I believe he would not.
15,507. How did you happen to ask for your money at that time? Is it not usual to ask for it after the first voyage?-When the men go for a single voyage, which lasts for about six weeks, they are cleared off when they go home; but when they go for the double voyage they cannot get their money until the end of the season. Mr. Leask thought I was shipped for the double voyage and that I would come over and draw the whole of my money at one time; but of course I did not know myself that I was for the double voyage until the captain came again and put me down for it.
15,508. Do men never draw their money at the end of the first voyage except when they are done with the ship for that season?- They do it now. As soon as their six weeks are over and they come back again, they draw their money; but they did not do that before.
15,509. Was it always the practice before to make only one settlement for the long voyage?-Yes.
15,510. Have you always got your money since 1866?-Yes.
15,511. Have you also incurred an account at the same time with the agent who engaged you?-Yes.
15,512. How is it settled?-It was settled at the end of the season.
15,513. Was it read over to you before you went up to the Custom House to get payment of your money?-Yes.
15,514. Was the balance written out in the books before you went up?-Yes.
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15,515. You went up and got your money from the Custom House from the agent or his clerk, and then you came down to the shop and paid your account?-Yes.
15,516. When you went to the shop in the first place, were you always told to come back and pay your account?-Yes.
15,517. Who tells you to do that?-The agent.
15,518. Have you always had your account clear at the end of the season, or have you sometimes been in debt to the shop?-I have always been clear.
15,519. Do you know that young hands are sometimes in debt to the shop at the end of the season?-Yes.
15,520. Has there sometimes been a difficulty in getting berths in the sealing and whaling vessels, in consequence of more men applying than were wanted?-Yes.
15,521. What kind of men are preferred in such circumstances; is it the best quality of men?-There are generally all sorts of hands-green hands, and able seamen, and ordinary seamen of all kinds.
15,522. When a man is in debt to an agent, do you think he has any better chance of getting a berth?-My partners think so. They think that if a man is in debt the agent will perhaps try to get him into a vessel, in order that he may be able to clear off his debt.
15,523. Do you know that they have done that?-Yes, I have seen it.
15,524. What have you seen?-I have seen agents getting men who were in their debt put into their ships.
15,525. Have you heard the captains complaining of the agents putting inferior men upon them for that reason?-I have. Captain Bruce of the 'Camperdown,' complained about that in 1866. He said to the men that Mr. Leask was putting hands into the ship that he did not like, and that he would have liked better hands.
15,526. Did he state the reason why he supposed Mr. Leask was doing that?-He did not tell us about the reason.
15,527. Then how did you know that that was the reason why Mr. Leask had put in inferior hands?-I knew they were men who were in debt to him.
15,528. Did you know that from the men themselves?-Yes, I knew it from several men; but I don't remember their names- they were men on board the 'Camperdown' that year along with me.
15,529. Did they tell you that their being in debt had given them a better chance of a berth?-Yes; and that when they were in debt they got a ship.
15,530. Was that a general understanding among them?-Yes.
15,531. Did you know of any better men who wished to go in that ship, but who were refused because they were not in debt?-No; but I know that if men are debt to the agent they will get a ship sooner than those who are clear with him.
15,532. But you have always got a ship although you were not in debt?-Yes.
15,533. Are you an able seaman?-Yes, I am a boat-steerer.
15,534. Do harpooneers and boat-steerers get a higher wage, and are they more sure of getting a berth than ordinary seamen?-Yes, they get higher wages, and are more in demand.
15,535. On the occasion you spoke of, when you went in the 'Camperdown' with Captain Bruce, it was to the captain that you owed your engagement, and not to the agent?-Yes.
15,536. If the agent had had his own way, would you have been engaged?-I would not.
15,537. Had you an account with the agent at that time?-No, I had some more money to get from him.
15,538. Had he not paid you up the whole of the money that was due to you on the sealing voyage?-No; there was a second payment of oil-money which I had to get.
15,539. Is it quite understood among the whalers, that when their money is paid to them at the Custom House they have to go down to the shops and pay it to the agents?-Yes; they quite understand that they have to clear the agent's books.
15,540. I suppose a man would not think of letting his account stand any longer?-No.
15,541. What would be the consequence if he did that?-I cannot say.
15,542. Would he get a berth next year?-He might get a berth next year, but it is best to have the books cleared.
15,543. But suppose a man had other accounts due, would he have to go and pay the agent first, and let his other accounts wait?-I don't know about that.
15,544. Does not a man go and pay the agent first, whether he has other people wanting his money or not?-As a rule, they go and pay the agent first.
15,545. Have you heard any of the men complain that they had to pay the agents in preference to other accounts which they wished to settle?-No.
Lerwick, January 30, 1872, PETER HALCROW, examined.
15,546. Are you a seaman?-Yes.
15,547. Have you gone on sealing and whaling voyages for some years back?-Yes, for nine years.
15,548. What agents in Lerwick have you been engaged by?-The whole of them.
15,549. Did you always get your outfit from the agent you engaged with?-Yes, the most part of it.
15,550. And you settled your account with him at the end of the year?-Yes.
15,551. Had you always a balance to receive in money?- Generally. Once I had not; that was in my second year.
15,552. Have you always got any money that was due to you paid in cash?-No.
15,553. When did you not?-The first year I was out.
15,554. Was there something due to you that year?-Yes,
15,555. Did you ask for it to be paid to you?-Yes, at different times; but I did not get it. I was told that the agent had not got it himself, and that therefore I could not get it.
15,556. When did you return that year?-On 1st October.
15,557. How long was it after that before you got your money paid?-I never got it paid at all. I had to take goods for it out of Mr. Leask's shop.
15,558. Were you told to take goods?-No, he did not tell me to take them; but I had to take them when I could not get the money. I was in need of them.
15,559. Did you want the goods?-Yes, I was requiring things, and I got them there.
15,560. Did he say that you had better take goods, as the money had not come?-No, he did not say that. He only said it was not come every time I came and asked for it, and as I could not wait longer I just took the things I had to get.
15,561. How long was it after you returned before you began to take the goods?-About a month or five weeks.
15,562. How often had you asked for the money within that time?-Three or four times.
15,563. Were you offered the goods?-No, I was never offered them until I asked for them.
15,564. Did you say anything about not getting your money to the agent or any of his people?-No, I did not say anything.
15,565. Are you sure there was £4 due to you at that time?- There was £4, 10s. due when we left home from the owners, and 30s. from the Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund, because we were shipwrecked.
15,566. Then there was no oil-money that year?-None.
15,567. Did you not get the payment from the Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund in cash?-No.
15,568. Did you apply for it in cash?-Yes; I applied at the shop for it, and I got a very little cash, perhaps about £1 at one time and another-not all at once.
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15,569. Have you ever taken part of your earnings in goods since then?-Yes, I have done so almost every year that I have been out.
15,570. But that was just in the account which you opened when you went away?-Yes.
15,571. Did your people get any advances when you were absent from the agent with whom you shipped?-Yes; a little.
15,572. And they get any supplies anywhere else?-They generally got them from the agent.
15,573. Why was that?-I don't know; they just got them there.
15,574. Do you not get a month's advance when you leave?-We get a month's advance now. We don't get the money before we leave, but we get a ticket to be paid three days after the ship sails. We generally give it to the agent, and get a little money on it, but not to the full amount of the advance.
15,575. Do you not leave that ticket at home?-Some of the men leave them at home, and the value of them is got afterwards.
15,576. Why do you not do that?-Because I may want the money before I go away, and I get a part of it from the agent.
15,577. In that case you have to leave your ticket with the agent?-Yes, we have to give it up to him.
15,578. Do you not get allotment tickets when you leave?-I don't know them.
15,579. Can you not get half-pay tickets if you want them?-Yes.
15,580. Is it not the practice to get them?-Sometimes they get them if they ask for them.
15,581. Do you take them?-No.
15,582. Why?-I don't know. We generally just get what we want in money or in goods, as we ask for it.
15,583. Do the agents give these half-pay tickets whenever they are asked for?-Yes.
15,584. Would they prefer you not to take them, but to take goods instead?-I don't know about that. I have not been told so.
15,585. Did you hear the evidence of Francis Gifford?-Yes.
15,586. Do you think what he said was generally correct?-I think so.
15,587. Was he correct in what he said about a man who was in debt to the agent getting a berth more readily than another?-Yes.
15,588. Have you known that in your own experience?-I got a ship when I was in debt in my second year.
15,589. Do you think you got it more easily because you were in debt?-I cannot say for that.
15,590. Have you heard men speaking about getting a ship more easily when they were in debt?-I have heard them talking about it, but still I don't know about it myself except on that one occasion.
15,591. Have you known any case like that which Francis Gifford mentioned, of inferior men being put on board a ship because they were in the agent's debt, in preference to better men?-I never knew of that, but still it may have happened. I wish to say that in 1866 I shipped in the 'Diana' of Hull, for the west ice in Davis Straits, and when we were out I was beset in her for thirteen months, and for seven months we were on short allowance. We have never been paid for that short allowance, although the men in Hull were paid for it.
15,592. Have you applied for that?-There is a man here who has applied for it. I think he applied to Mr. Charles Duncan, writer, and also to the sheriff.
15,593. Who was the agent from whom you thought you should have got it?-Mr. Leask.
15,594. Did you apply to him for the difference which you ought to have got in consequence of being put upon short allowance?- Yes; and he told us it was no use applying for it, because he did not think we would get it. I never asked Mr. Leask about that myself, but other men in Lerwick have done it.
15,595. Did they mention to him that the Hull men had got the difference paid to them?-Yes.
15,596. Did Mr. Leask offer to do anything for you in that case?- Not as far as I know; but I was away from home at the time when the men applied for it.
15,597. Do you think that has anything to do with your dealings at Mr. Leask's shop?-I don't think so, but I suppose Mr. Leask could have applied for it if he had liked.
15,598. Had you an account with him that year which you settled as usual at the end of the season?-Yes.
15,599. Did you not apply for the difference on the short allowance when you were settling that account?-Yes. They told me then that they did not know but what they might get it for us, but still they did not say that we would get it, and it has not come yet.
Lerwick, January 30, 1872, WILLIAM LAURENSON, examined.
15,600. Are you a seaman living in Bressay?-Yes. I have been at the sealing and whaling for thirty-six years. I have got settled, and got my wages paid to me at the Custom House for some years back, but that was not done when I first went.
15,601. Before you were paid at the Custom House, did you not get payment of your wages?-I got no satisfaction of them. I very often did not see an account. I would come over from Bressay two or three different times wanting to get settled, but they would shove me off time after time, giving me perhaps 10s. or £1; but they would not settle with me.
15,602. Were you owing an account for supplies at that time?- I got supplies from the shop when I went on the voyage, but I always had balances of money to get. I never was in debt.
15,603. By what agents were you treated in that way?-They are long dead now.
15,604. Did that not continue till 1867, when the new regulations came into force, according to which you were paid at the Custom House?-Yes; the system continued much the same until then.
15,605. Were you put off in the same way from time to time down till 1867?-Yes; perhaps getting £1 or 10s. now and again.
15,606. What agents were you engaged by, five or six years ago?- I was engaged by Mr. Tait, and I was three years for Mr. Tulloch; but I was paid at the Custom House then.
15,607. Were you often engaged by Mr. Tait before 1867?-I would be engaged by him perhaps two years at a time, and then I would leave him and go to another, and then go back to him again.
15,608. Who else did you engage with?-I went out a long time for Messrs. Hay, and I was with Mr. Leask too.
15,609. When you went, until five years ago, to get a settlement of your account, were you always put off with £1 or 10s., or some supplies, if you wanted them?-I was put off now and again.
15,610. Did all the agents who employed you treat you in the same way?-Almost every one.
15,611. Did you not get a settlement with Messrs. Hay when you asked for it?-Yes; I got a fair settlement with Messrs. Hay when I went out from their shop.
15,612. Were you ever put off in the way you have mentioned when you were engaged by them?-No; and I was engaged by them for ten years.
15,613. When you went to Mr. Tait, did he settle with you when you asked for it, even before the new system?-Yes.
15,614. Did he ever put you off in that way?-No. I was out of his shop when his father was alive, and he settled with me in the same way.
15,615. Had you ever to ask him twice for your money?-No.
15,616. Did you get a settlement whenever you went there for it?-Yes.
15,617. Did you always get your money in full when you went over to ask for it from Mr. Leask?-I got what was due to me; but I generally had some things out of the shop before I went, and then I got the balance.
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15,618. Could you always get it at once without any difficulty?- Yes; I just asked for it and I got it.
15,619. Then who were the agents who put you off in the way you mentioned?-They are all dead long ago.
15,620. I thought you said the system of putting you off in that way, and of giving you £1 or 10s. at a time, continued till about five or six years ago?-Sometimes it did, and sometimes not. Some years I never got a fair account, and in other years I did.
15,621. But you always got a fair account from Messrs. Hay?- Yes.
15,622. And from Mr. Leask?-Yes.
15,623. And from Mr. Tait and Mr. Tulloch?-Yes.
15,624. What agents were there besides these, five or six years ago?-It is far longer than five or six years since I was put off in that way, and did not get the settlement when I wanted it.
15,625. Will it be ten years since you asked for your money and did not get it?-It will be ten years, or above that.
15,626. Will it be fifteen or twenty years ago?-It will be from fifteen to twenty years.
15,627. Are you a harpooneer or a boat-steerer?-I am a boat-steerer.
15,628. Did you hear the evidence of Francis Gifford?-Yes.
15,629. Do you think he was generally correct in what he said?- Yes. I know quite well that men who were in debt to the agent could get a ship sooner than I could, who was clear with them.
15,630. Could a man do that although he was not so good a seaman?-Yes.
15,631. Was that a general belief among the men?-Yes. For my part, I never was indebted to any of the agents, and therefore I got a ship whenever wanted it.
15,632. Did you get a ship because you were not in debt?-Yes; it did not matter. I stayed in one ship for a long time.
15,633. Were the agents more willing to get a berth for a man who was not in their debt?-No.
15,634. Did they prefer to engage a man who was in their debt?- Yes; but there were not very many that would be in debt. Perhaps a young hand, who had been a year or two only at the whaling, and had small wages, would be in debt, and they would take him next year in order to clear off the accounts which he had left the year before.
15,635. Do you think the green hands were ready to get into debt in order to make sure of getting a berth next year?-I don't know about that.
15,636. Then what did you mean by saying that you never were in debt, and therefore you always got berth when you wanted it?-I only meant to say that always got a ship when I wanted one, but that I never was in debt to the agents; and therefore I cannot prove whether they would take me more readily if I was in debt. But I have heard the men saying that those who were in debt would be shipped as soon as the others.
Lerwick, January 30, 1872, ELIZABETH MORRISON, examined.
15,637. Do you live in Lerwick?-Yes.
15,638. What do you do?-Anything that I can. I go errands or knit stockings, or anything of that sort.
15,639. Do you sometimes go about selling things?-I have sold three or four neckties to different people.
15,640. Do you not sell other kinds of goods?-No. If I sell anything, it is of my own.
15,641. Do you sell shop goods of different kinds?-No.
15,642. Do you mean that you do not go about the country and hawk goods?-I don't do that.
15,643. Did you ever get any shop goods from a knitter for the purpose of selling them or exchanging them for other things?- No; the neckties I sold I got ready money for.
15,644. It is not neckties I am speaking about at all. Have you not sold goods that you had got from knitting women for that purpose?-No, not for some years past.
15,645. Did you once do that?-Yes, some time ago.
15,646. How long ago?-I cannot remember.
15,647. A year ago?-It is about that.
15,648. Did you not make a living sometimes by getting goods from knitters and selling them again in the country?-No; I never was out of Lerwick in my time.
15,649. Did you sell them in Lerwick?-I sold some bits of dribblets of things that were not worth mentioning; but that was some time ago.
15,650. What was it that you sold?-It may have been three yards of cotton, or such as that.
15,651. Did you get such things pretty often from knitters?-No, not often.
15,652. When did you get them last?-It was a long time ago.
15,653. Was it six months ago?-It would be above that.
15,654. Would it be twelve months since you got anything of that kind to sell?-I cannot say.
15,655. You said you had perhaps sold three yards of cotton: whom did you sell it for?-I cannot remember.
15,656. Whom did you get it from?-I cannot remember.
15,657. Have you got it more than once?-Perhaps once or twice; but it is a long time ago now.
15,658. Do you think you may have got it three or four times?-I don't think I did.
15,659. What else did you get besides the three yards of cotton?- Nothing.
15,660. Did you never get a bit of cloth for a dress?-No.
15,661. Or a jacket?-No.
15,662. Or a pair of boots?-No.
15,663. Did you ever get any tea or sugar to sell?-No.
15,664. Do you swear that?-I do.
15,665. Do you swear that you never sold a quarter pound of tea in your life?-I do.
15,666. Did you never sell any sugar?-No.
15,667. Did you ever buy any except out of a shop?-I never bought any except what I bought out a shop for my ready penny.
15,668. Did you ever tell anybody that you had sold things for knitters?-No, I could not tell any one that.
15,669. Did you get that cotton from a woman who had got it for her knitting?-I don't know in what way she may have got it, but I got it from a woman. Who she was I cannot say, because she picked me up in the street and gave it to me.
15,670. Did you get it sold for her?-I did. I don't remember who bought it; it was some country person.
15,671. Do you not remember who the woman was that you got it from?-I cannot remember.
15,672. Did you know her?-I did not know her.
15,673. In what way did she ask you to sell it for her?-She asked me if I could get anybody to buy it, and I saw a country woman at my side, and she bought it.
15,674. Why did the woman ask you to get it sold?-I don't know.
15,675. Had you never seen her before?-Neither before nor since.
15,676. Have you any idea why she asked you to sell it?-No, I have no idea of that.
15,677. Do you think she had ever seen you doing the like before?-There is many an old person such as me who does errands for many a one.
15,678. Have you done errands of that kind at other times?-Yes, years and years ago.
15,679. May you have done so a good many times?-I don't know. It was very seldom I did it.
15,680. What did you get for that cotton?-I cannot remember now.
15,681. Was it money you got for it?-Yes.
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15,682. Did you pay the woman you got it from at the time?-Yes.
15,683. Had you not paid her for it before you sold it?-I gave her the money just as I got it from the woman at my side.
15,684. How long was it between the time when you got the cotton and the time when you sold it?-Perhaps a minute or five or ten minutes. The woman was just at my hand who bought it.
15,685. Why could the woman who gave it to you not have sold it herself?-I don't know.
15,686. How much did she give you for selling it?-A penny.
15,687. Did you ever get a penny for selling anything else?-No; I don't work in that way for my living.
15,688. Are you sure you never got a penny for selling any other article for a woman?-I have got many a penny at different times, but not in that exact way.
15,689. What else do you do for your living?-I live very meanly.
15,690. But do you never get any more than a penny for doing an errand now and then?-I have no idea of doing errands only for my living.
15,691. Is there anything else by which you make a living, except by going errands?-I am not going errands for ever. I sometimes sit and knit a stocking in my own room; that is all I do.
15,692. Do you sell your stockings?-No; they are just for myself.
15,693. Then they will not make it living for you?-No; but perhaps some of my friends might lift a hand to help me.
15,694. Do you live on charity?-Not altogether on charity.
15,695. You do run an errand for a penny now and then?-No, not I.
15,696. Why are you reluctant to tell me the truth?-I am not denying the truth.
15,697. You are not willing to answer my questions: why is that?-I have answered them so far as I know, and as far as I am able. I have no more to say than I have told you, and I have told you all the truth.
15,698. You say you do not make your living by charity, and you only get a penny now and then for running errands, but that is very seldom: is there any other way in which you make your living?- When a person wishes to lift their hand to me in charity, I take what they have to give me.
15,699. Do you swear that you don't make the principal part of your living by selling things in the town?-I don't make my living by that.
15,700. Do you swear that you don't sell something every day?-I don't sell something every day.
15,701. Don't you sell two or three things every week?-No; I am quite sure of that.
15,702. Have you sold anything this week?-No.
15,703. Did you sell anything last week or the week before?-No.
15,704. Did you sell anything last year?-I cannot remember what I did last year, for my memory is quite gone.
Lerwick, January 30, 1872, WILLIAM B.M. HARRISON, examined.
15,705. Are you a partner of the firm of Harrison & Sons?-I am.
15,706. Your firm, I believe, are extensively engaged in the Faroe fishing?-Yes.
15,707. In what form is the agreement you enter into with the men for that fishing?-The men agree, in the first place, to prosecute the fishing in a certain vessel, and to join the vessel any day when we may call upon them to do so, and proceed to the fishing to either Faroe, Iceland, Rockall, or any other place that the master may think most expedient, and to stay there as long as the master thinks fit, with the exception of the trips they may make home for landing any fish they may catch, or in case of accident or for any other good reason; in consideration of which services the fishermen have to receive one half of the proceeds of the fish caught, after deducting the expenses of curing, etc., such as master's premium, 10s. per ton, mate's premium 2s. 6d. per ton, and the cost of bait required for catching the fish. Along with that the men have to get eight pounds of bread per man per week and 9d. per score for the fish which each man takes, one half to be paid by the owners and the other half by the crew. That is the substance of the agreement. And then there are clauses for our safety, having reference to damage that may be done to the vessel or her gear, which the men bind themselves to pay for.
15,708. Is there a scale of victualling for the men in case the vessel goes to Iceland?-Yes. The agreement binds the men to fish according to it until the 20th August; and the next clause says that if the master or owner sees fit to leave Faroe for Iceland or for a late voyage, then the men agree to go upon the victuals and wages which are stated in the agreement.
15,709. Then in addition to the stipulations in the agreement, I understand the owner receives a commission of five per cent. on the whole proceeds of the voyage?-He is entitled to get it if he can, but very often we don't get it. This year we have got nothing.
15,710. Was that because the men objected to it?-We always try to pay as high as other people; but this year we have not made such good sales, and therefore we have not taken anything off, so that we might be able to give as much per ton as other people give. In other years, again, we may get two and a half or we may get five per cent, just as the fish sales turn out; and the men don't object to us getting it if we can.
15,711. Why is there no stipulation for a commission put into the agreement?-It has never been put into our agreements from the first.
15,712 Is it a usual thing to take it?-Yes, it is quite usual if we can get it; but we have to bear and haul with other people, and if the men would be dissatisfied with us taking it we have to give it up, and we would rather do so than have any words about it.
15,713. Was this not a good year in the Faroe fishing?-No, very indifferent.
15,714. What was the amount of a share in one of your smacks with an average take this year?-I should say about £18.
15,715. Was that sum larger than the ordinary, or would some of them be less or more?-We had some of them as high as £28 for a sharesman.
15,716. Were these in the larger smacks?-No; there were others as large, but less fortunate; and there were some of them much smaller, and they could not be expected to do so well.
15,717. Do the men ever ask for or get a sight of the bills of sale?-Yes. I have shown them to the fishermen this year.
15,718. Had you ever shown them to them before?-Yes. I had not shown them to every man, but I had shown them to the captain, who I expected would have more knowledge of the matter than the other men.
15,719. Do the men generally run accounts at your shop?-Yes; every one of them has an account.
15,720. Do you think they get most of the supplies for their families during the season from your shop?-I think they do. Perhaps there are two or three of them who want to look after their means better than the rest, and who have money lying beside them: these men may perhaps buy goods with cash, and not from our shop; but, as a rule, every one of them gets his supplies from us.
15,721. I believe the majority of your men are not in debt to you at settlement, but have a balance to receive in cash?-Yes. I think there are very few this year, and there were very few last year, who were in debt; and even with these men the amount of debt is very small.
15,722. Do you think the amount of debt was smaller than usual in the two years for which you have given [Page 396] returns, 1867 and 1871, or was it about an average?-That depends altogether upon the fishing. If it is not a total failure, the men are generally all clear of debt; but if a bad year comes in, then we cannot expect that.
15,723. How do you account for the fact that the men almost all take their supplies for the season from your shop in an account with you?-If they have no money, it is not likely that other people will give them supplies, unless they know them very well; and even if they have money, I always find that the men prefer to keep it and come to the shop again and take up goods.
15,724. Do they keep the money in their hands rather than pay for the goods in cash when they get them?-Yes, invariably. I have frequently noticed that practice among the men, and I have spoken to them about it. I have paid as much as £20 to a man at settlement, and then he would come into the shop and take out his outfit. I have asked them why they did so, and told them it would be better for them to pay for their goods with their own money, and then they would know what they were doing.
15,725. What was their answer to that?-They said they preferred to keep the money. It was always in their hand, and the goods could stand over for a year; and perhaps, if the next year's fishing is bad, they think we will allow it to stand for two years rather than push them for the price.
15,726. Would the men not get their goods cheaper if a system existed of paying in cash?-I don't think they would.
15,727. They might not get them cheaper as matters stand at present; but if they were, all willing to pay in cash, would it not be possible for you to give them their goods cheaper than you supply them upon credit?-I would not sell cheaper for cash. The goods are all marked in figures, and when they are paid for in cash they are charged at the same prices as when put down to the account. We have not two prices for our goods.
15,728. What proportion does your cash trade bear to your credit trade?-I should say that it is more than one third, but not one half.
15,729. In the answers you have given, are you speaking of the Faroe fishermen in your employment, or are you also referring to the home fishermen?-I have been speaking of the Faroe fishermen principally.
15,730. Where are the men employed by you in the ling fishing?- Most of them are situated in Sandwick parish.
15,731. Have they also accounts in your shop here?-Most of them have.
15,732. But not to the same extent per man as the Faroe men?- No; but we know exactly how much they are likely to gain, and therefore they are not allowed to exceed a certain sum.
15,733. Do you limit the credits of the men employed in the home fishing?-They limit their credits themselves, because they are grown-up men with families, and they know how far they should run their accounts. Of course, if they were running them further, we would limit them; but we rarely have to do that, because we know they must have the little which they do get.
15,734. Is not that the case with the Faroe fishermen also?-Yes; we limit them too.
15,735. But I understand you to say that the necessity for limiting the home fishermen is greater than in the case of the Faroe fishermen?-Yes.
15,736. Why is that?-Because I consider the home fishing is not so good a fishing: the earnings from it are not so great.
15,737. You said you knew quite well what the men are likely to earn in the ling fishing?-Yes. I can tell from my experience the outside which any ling fisherman can earn.
15,738. Do you know that before the season begins?-Yes. By taking five or six years together, I can see what a man has done in time past, and I don't expect that he will exceed it.
15,739. Do you think that any five years of a fisherman's life will give an average from which you can calculate his probable take for next year?-Yes; I think five years is quite sufficient.
15,740. The variation, I suppose, arises from the nature of the season?-Yes; in stormy weather they cannot go to sea so often as in good seasons, and in other times the fish do not come over the ground so well as they did before. Another thing is the herring fishing, which is connected with the ling fishing, the same boats being used for both purposes.