16,366. Have you a balance to receive at the end of the year when you settle with Mr. Leask?-Generally.
16,367. Are you never in his debt at settlement?-No.
[Page 414]
16,368. Does your wife get cash from Mr. Leask when she wants it?-Yes.
16,369. How much does she generally get?-I don't know.
16,370. Did she ever get 5s. at a time?-Perhaps she got the whole half-pay at a time if she wanted it, or the half of it.
16,371. Was that if she wanted it for any particular purpose, such as for paying rent?-Yes, or any necessary thing.
16,372. But it was only for a necessary purpose that she got it?-I suppose so.
16,373. Is it generally understood among the men in the whaling, that they ought to deal with the agent who engages them for a voyage?-No. We can deal with any person we like.
16,374. But don't they always deal with the agent who engages them, taking their outfit and their supplies for home from him?- Yes.
16,375. Do you think that if a man did not deal with the agent he would be as likely to get a berth next year as if he had kept an account with him?-Just the same; I never found any difference.
16,376. But did you ever go to another agent for your supplies than the one who had engaged you?-No, not in that particular season; but I have changed agents occasionally.
16,377. How long is it since you were engaged by another agent than Mr. Leask?-Two years. I changed from Laurenson & Co. to Mr. Leask then.
16,378. Why did you change?-Just to fall in with the ship that I wanted to go in. That was my only reason.
16,379. Were you clear with Laurenson & Co. when you changed?-Yes.
Lerwick, February 5, 1872, JAMES LAURENSON, examined.
16,380. Are you a seaman residing at Mews, in Dunrossness?-I am.
16,381. Are you serving at present in the Naval Reserve?-Yes.
16,382. What trade have you been engaged in as a seaman?-I have mostly been in the south.
16,383. Have you been in the Faroe fishing?-No.
16,384. Have you been at the ling fishing?-I was two years in the ling fishing at Mews, about eight or nine years ago, for Mr. Robert Mullay.
16,385. Did you keep accounts with him then for your supplies?- Not for supplies, only for fishing material.
16,386. Did you get any advances of money from him?-I did not ask for any; I did not want them at the time.
16,387. Would you have got advances of money if you had asked for them when you were not taking supplies?-I expect I would.
16,388. But you did not want the money, and you did not ask for it?-I did not ask for it.
Lerwick, February 5, 1872, ALEXANDER GOODLAD, examined.
16,389. What are you?-I am a seaman, and I live in Lerwick.
16,390. I understand you wish to make some statement about the sealing and whaling voyages?-Yes. If I ask a half-pay note from an agent, it cannot keep my family, and I am not much acquainted with any person except the agent who will give me credit and therefore I don't know where to get supplies for them in my absence except through him.
16,391. What is the amount of your wages?-Usually 50s., and my half-pay is usually 25s.
16,392. Do you commonly run an account with the agent?-Yes.
16,393. Is your reason for doing so that your halfpay is too small?-Yes.
16,394. Did you ever try to get credit anywhere else except from the agent who engaged you?-I have.
16,395. Were you refused?-Sometimes, but not always.
16,396. What reason was given for refusing you credit?-They said they did not know me.
16,397. Was that by a merchant in Lerwick?-Yes.
16,398. Were you asked on these occasions whether you were running an account elsewhere?-Yes; and I was told to go to the agent's for what I wanted.
16,399. Do the tradesmen here expect that you will get your supplies from the agent who engages you for the whaling voyage?-Commonly they do.
16,400. And they don't care for giving credit to men who are running an account with the agent?-No.
16,401. Were you running an account with the agent also at the time when you applied for credit in that way?-No; I was clear with the agent at that time.
16,402. Did you get no supplies from him at the beginning of the voyage?-No; but I have sometimes got supplies from the agents before I went on another voyage.
16,403. What merchant refused you credit in the way you have mentioned?-It was some of them who did not know me in Lerwick.
16,404. Did they refuse because they knew that the agent had the command of your money, and could keep it for his own account if he had one?-Yes.
16,405. Did they say so?-No, they did not make that statement exactly; but they told me that when a man was getting a ship from an agent he should go and get his things from him.
16,406. Did any merchant refuse to give you goods, and give you that reason for his refusal?-Yes.
16,407. Was he an agent in the whaling trade?-No, he was not.
16,408. Had you an account at that time with any agent?-Yes.
16,409. I thought you said you had not?-I was done with the agent, and had signed clear in his books.
16,410. What season of the year was that?-In February.
16,411. Do you engage then for the rising season?-I engage for it in the month of March.
16,412. Do you then open an account with the agent for your supplies?-Yes.
16,413. Then is it quite an understood thing that man who engages with an agent for a Greenland voyage must get his supplies from that agent's shop?-If his goods are as cheap and its good as any other person's, they commonly take them from his shop; but if not, they usually make a change with the first month's advance they get, and buy what they want where they can get it cheapest and best.
16,414. Did you ever do that?-Yes.
16,415. Do you always do it?-There are many things which the agents do not keep, and therefore we have to go to different places for what we want.
16,416. Do you get money from the agents for that purpose?- Yes; we get our first month's advance on signing, and then they will give us supplies in addition for two or three months I suppose, or as much as we have a mind to take.
16,417. Have you ever been spoken to at the Custom House, when you were getting your pay, about going down to the shop and settling your account?-I commonly settle my account before I go up to the Custom House.
16,418. But you don't pay your money until after you have been at the Custom House?-No.
16,419. Have you ever been spoken to at the Custom House by the agent, or his clerk, about going down to the office and paying the money that was due?-Yes. I was told last year by Mr. Leask's clerk, Mr. Jamieson, to go down and pay the balance which I was due.
[Page 415]
16,420. Did he tell you that in the Custom House or at the office?-At the office, when we got our account of wages.
16,421. That was before you went up to get your money at all?- Yes.
16,422. He told you then to come back with it?-Yes; and to pay the balance due.
16,423. Is not that always done when you go to settle your account?-No.
16,424. Is it not often done?-No; only that was the time anything of the kind had been said to me.
16,425. Did you ever hear it said to anybody else?-No.
JOHN HARRISON, examined.
16,426. What are you?-I am a merchant in Lerwick.
16,427. Have you been for a long time a partner of the firm of Harrison & Son?-Yes, since 1856.
16,428. I understand you have had large experience in the management of the Faroe fishing business?-Yes.
16,429. Have you also had some experience with regard to the ling fishing?-Not a great deal; but I have had some.
16,430. Has your firm had any connection with the management of land or property in Shetland?-None whatever.
16,431. Have you neither been tacksmen nor proprietors?-My father is a proprietor to a very small extent.
16,432. But you have not been in any way dependent for your supplies of fishermen upon any interest or connection with land?-In no way whatever.
16,433. Did you find the absence of that connection with land to be any inconvenience to you in the management of your business, with regard to getting fishermen?-None whatever; but men have been hindered from engaging with us, in consequence of being under the power of tacksmen or landlords, who wished to engage them for themselves, although they would have preferred to have gone into our service.
16,434. Has that occurred in many cases?-I cannot state the number of cases, but it has occurred in many, and within recent times.
16,435. Can you give an instance of that without mentioning names?-I could not particularize the instances at the present moment, but if I had time I am prepared to bring forward more than a dozen instances within a period of between two and four years back.
16,437. Are you now speaking with regard to your supply of Faroe fishermen?-Yes.
16,437. Is it not the case, that where tenants are bound fish for their landlord or tacksman, that obligation only applies to the ling fishing if they engage in it but that they and their families are quite free to go to the Faroe fishing or the whale fishing if they please?-Under the system which obtains in Shetland, it makes no difference what fishery a man may go to. He is bound to do what the landlord or the tacksman wishes; if not the result is merely the service of a warning to the parents; and of course, in consequence of the injury which that would do to them, the children, out of their kindness to them, must submit to any rules which may be laid down for their observance.
16,438. The evidence which has been led before me before, of fishermen and of proprietors, has been to this effect, that the obligation upon a man to fish for the proprietor or tacksman extends only to the ling fishing, if he is engaged in it, and that if he chooses to go to the Faroe fishing he is at perfect liberty to do so?-I know of no such obligation.
16,439. Has your experience been different?-Entirely different.
16,440. Does your experience not apply to cases where the tenant may have been in debt?-When the tenant is in debt, it is utterly impossible for him to go and serve another man. But I was referring to the case of parties who were quite free of debt, and who had money in their own possession.
16,441. How many of these cases have come within your knowledge within the last two or three years?-I could not particularize them. There have been several cases which have come under my own notice, or the notice of my firm, although I could not state the number; but from hearsay, and from the talk of men who are serving other owners, I am led to believe that a very great number of these cases has occurred. I do not mean to say that there was actual straightforward force put upon the men; but there were certain innuendoes, by which they knew perfectly well that if they did not do as the tacksman or landlord wished, the result would be that they would be warned out.
16,442. Can you mention the circumstances of any particular case in which men have been prevented from going to the Faroe fishing in any of your vessels?-I can particularize one instance which came very vividly before me. There were two brothers, who had been with my firm since they were boys. I had rather a respect for them both, because they were honest men and capital fishermen. One of the boys came to me and said, 'I find that I cannot go in the vessel I wished to go in this year, because I am told by the tacksman that my parents will be warned. My brother can go; but if he does, he will have to pay so much for the liberty of going in the vessel that he wishes to go in.' I had no reason to doubt the correctness of that statement, because, notwithstanding his evident anxiety to get into the vessel belonging to us, in which he wished to go, and in which he had been serving before, he did not go in her; and it was the evident pressure that had been put upon him which hindered him from going.
16,443. Is that the most striking case of the kind that you have come across in your business experience?-I cannot say that it is the most striking case, but it is the case which appears at the present moment most patent to me, because we were so directly interested in it ourselves.
16,444. How long is it since that happened?-Three or four years ago; I cannot say precisely.
16,445. Is that the only way in which your not having connection with land has interfered with your business; or do you find it a disadvantage with regard to the manning of your own vessels, not to have landed property under your control?-No, I don't find that to be a disadvantage; I find that we have been the most successful owners of fishing vessels in the Faroe trade of any in the country; and the reason is simply this, that the men who come to us are free men-men who are not bound, neither will be bound, by tacksmen or landlords but men who have been able to earn money by superior energy; but we have had to do a great deal in order to obtain such it class of men, and we have had to lose a great deal of money which other people perhaps have put into their pockets.
16,446. Do you mean that you have lost it great deal of money in order to secure this superior class of men?- Yes.
16,447. But has not the fact that you have procured them, proved remunerative to you in the end?- [Page 416] Of course it has. It has been a gain to the men, and it has also been it gain to us.
16,448. Do you find that a man who is in debt is its good a fisherman, in your experience, as one who keeps clear of debt?- By no means. My experience has been, on more than fifty different occasions, that although men were due us from £5 to £18 or £20, we would not engage them again if the captains of the vessels said they were not fishermen who were worth being taken, and would rather lose the balances against them in our books than employ them.
16,449. Then you consider it an erroneous statement, that it is advantageous for a merchant in Shetland to obtain a great number of debtors?-I consider it to be the most erroneous statement that ever was made.
16,450. You are aware, I suppose, that that statement was made in the evidence of a witness who was examined in Edinburgh?-Yes, I read something of that kind in the evidence; but I think it was erroneous. I suppose Mr. Walker, when he made it, thoroughly believed that the parties to whom he referred believed that having a number of debtors was the best thing they could possibly have; but my impression is quite different, because the fishermen who are in debt do not have the same energy, nor do they exert themselves so much in procuring fish as other men who are free. If the fishcurer who had so many debtors had called them in and said to them, 'Now men, I will strike off the balances against you, and you will get no more supplies until you bring fish ashore,' I have not the slightest doubt that at the end of the season the result would have been it great gain to him, and a great gain to the fishermen.
16,451. But you think that other parties in Shetland may have acted upon the principle referred to in Mr. Walker's evidence, although you do not approve of it?-They may have done so, and I have no doubt they have, because it is a common axiom in Shetland that if once you get a man into debt you have a hold over him. No doubt you have a hold over him, but it is simply a hold over a very unwilling slave.
16,452. However, you have acted upon a different principle?-I have always endeavoured to do so as much as possible.
16,453. And you think you have been justified in doing so by the results?-Decidedly.
16,454. Can you give me any particular instance in which you proved the superiority of men who were free from debt to those who were in debt?-I can give general instances of that. In an island called Hildesha, belonging to my father, the men were accustomed to cast their fish, as it is called, green, and to get payment at so much per cwt. when they were landed green on shore. I found, after three or four years' experience, that at the settlements the men were getting into debt, although they were very good fishermen; indeed there were no better fishermen on the west side of Shetland. When I asked them the reason they said, 'Will you give us liberty to cure and dry our fish, and to sell them to you, or to Messrs. Garriock & Co., when they are dry?' I said, 'Certainly, if you think that will better your condition. Our house is an exporter of fish to Spain, its well as Garriock & Co., and I expect that you will not give them the fish at the same price which we will give you for them, but that you will rather give us the preference, seeing you are tenants of my father.' The men said that of course I should get the fish immediately they were dried, and they thought that would be an advantage to them. The result of that was, that the men reaped a great benefit; and although some of them afterwards, left the island in debt to the extent of £50, the best of them are now free men, and have money of their own in bank.
16,455. Is it long ago since that happened?-It is more than four or five years since they left the island.
16,456. How long is it since they paid off their debts?-I think not more than three years ago, some of them.
16,457. Was that not binding the tenants to deliver their fish to you in the same way as proprietors do, whose method you disapprove of?-Certainly not. I stated distinctly that if they offered their fish to Garriock & Co., and could get more money from them, then they were at liberty to sell to them. There was no stipulation whatever to the effect that these men were to deliver their fish to us.
16,458. Except that they were to give you the preference?-That was not at all stated. They simply gave us the preference, because they had a notion-a very foolish notion-that we might have acted in the same way as other parties would probably have acted if they had not done so: that was, by giving them a warning and turning them out of the island.
16,459. Did you not say that you stipulated with the men for that preference?-No, I did not stipulate for it. When I said to them that I expected they would give us the preference I did so not in the way of a threat, but, seeing that the men were tenants of ours, and that they had no reason to be dissatisfied with any supplies which they might receive, from our house during the time of the fishing, I felt that they were right in giving us the fish. I don't deny, however, that there was a certain sort of coercion upon them, from the very fact of my father being their landlord.
16,460 Have you considered the existing system in Shetland with the view of suggesting a remedy for the grievances which are alleged to exist?-I have thought it great deal over it, and our firm has suffered a great deal in consequence of the existing state of affairs, in the way I have already referred to; but certainly the remedy one can hardly point out
16,461 What do you consider to be the principal evils which exist?-The principal evil in Shetland arises from the system of land tenure, whereby no man has a lease; or if he gets a lease and if he is a fisherman, that lease is such that it is impossible for him to continue to be a fisherman, and to prosecute the fishing with energy. It is those who have no leases who are so bound down that they cannot do anything in the least degree contrary to the wish of the landlord or tacksman. I may give one instance of that, which is rather ludicrous. I was down at Sandwick parish the other day, and I was very anxious to bring up some fowls to town if I could get them to buy. I sent a man round to see if he could get any for me, but he called back saying that although I had offered about twice the value for each of the fowls, he had found it quite impossible to purchase them, as it was an agreement between landlord and tenants, although the tenants had no leases whatever, that they had to deliver so many fowls about the month of February to the landlord. I don't know whether the landlord gave credit for these fowls and took the value of them off the rent; but my impression is that it was something over and above the rent, as a present for being allowed to sit without leases.
16,462. Was not that just part of the rent as kain was formerly paid, and is now paid in some parts of Scotland?-I don't think it was, because there is no account of rent in which that item is marked down, so far as I know.
16,463. But I suppose the obligation to fish which is imposed upon yearly tenants is the principal objection which you have to the present system of landholding?-Decidedly.-
16,464. It what way does it operate injuriously this way: that neither I, nor any man who has any amount of capital, can come forward and by competition enable these fishermen to get a larger price for their fish.
16,465. But the arrangement with these fishermen all cases is stated to be, that they get the current price at the end of the season. Would that current price be any higher than it is now if the tenantry of Shetland were not so bound?-I am speaking just now of the benefit to the fishermen, not of the benefit to the fishcurers. I think the current price at the end of the year might in many cases be less, even with greater competition, if the parties bought the fish green from the fishermen, all the fishermen being free, because several of them no doubt would be obliged to sell their fish at an early period of the year when they might not obtain a good price. That would therefore bring down the market, and the result would be that the fishermen [Page 417] in that way would get less money if a current price were fixed then. But with regard to the benefit to the fishermen, I think that if there was a system of cash payments the competition would ensure the highest price to the fishermen; and of course the parties who bought would have to take the risk, the same as every merchant does who buys an article in every other trade in the world.
16,466. If you were introducing a system of cash payments, how would you propose to work it in the ling fishing?-That is a very difficult question to answer. In the case of the ling fishing, as well as in other fisheries, the only way would be to pay the men when they came on shore, as the fish were weighed out of the boat.
16,467. Would you pay them the whole amount according to a price fixed at the beginning of the season or at the time of delivery?-At the time of delivery, not at the beginning of the season.
16,468. Then that price would vary according to the state of the market?-Yes. If the price were fixed at the beginning of the season, and if one boat or twenty beats fished to one man, the result would be that that party would have the power over these men, so that no other competitor could come forward, although the markets might rise to the extent of from 1s. to 2s. 6d. per cwt.
16,469. Then you would not only have the price fixed at the time of delivering the fish, but you would give up the existing practice of engaging a boat's crew to fish for the whole of the season?- Decidedly. In the case of the ling fishing I would leave power to the boat's crew to sell to whom they liked.
16,470. In that case would there be any choice but to deliver to any fish-curer whose station happened to be most convenient for the crew?-The distances in Shetland between the different stations are sometimes very considerable, and of course a fisherman would be obliged to deliver his fish to any party who had a station near his house, if no other person came forward, but by the existing law any person who wished to go into the trade could come forward and erect a booth on the shore, and put up all the paraphernalia necessary for the curing and drying of fish, no matter on whose ground it might be. There are plenty of beaches in Shetland; and if the fishermen at a station came on shore and found that they could get a higher price from any competitor who came forward, other than the person who had a booth erected on that beach, they would be quite entitled to sell their fish to that other party, who could cure his fish on the beach, seeing that the party who held the beach did not have any fish to cure on it himself, no matter to whom the property belongs.
16,471. Is it not the practice in Shetland for proprietors to let their beaches?-It has been the practice, but it is not legal. The practice has generally been to charge 1s. per ton for the curing of fish on the beach; there is no such thing in Shetland as a beach let, but the tenants or small crofters who want to eke out their incomes can cure fish, or rather dry them, for themselves on paying perhaps 1s. per ton to the landlord or to the tacksmaster, for the privilege of drying the fish on the beaches below the crofts which they occupy.
16,472. Is it within your knowledge that 1s. per ton is generally paid by every crofter who cures fish on the beach adjacent to his holding?-That is quite within my knowledge, because our firm have paid it to more than twenty small crofters who have been drying fish for us, and they have then had to pay it to their landlord or tacksman.
16,473. Do you mean that that charge has been made by the crofters against you?-No, not made against us.
16,474. But they have made that charge, and you have agreed to pay it as part of the price of their fish?-When I first went into the trade 12s. per ton was paid for drying fish to the crofters to whom I refer. After a short time they complained about the 1s. per ton for the use of the beaches and our firm then raised the price of curing to 14s. per ton, which we paid, if I mistake not, for two or three years when no other firm in Shetland paid it. Now, as I understand, other firms in Shetland are paying the same money, 14s. per ton for curing; but 12s. was the original price when I entered into the trade.
16,475. Is that for drying also?-Yes.
16,476. If a price were fixed at the time of landing the fish, and were paid in the way you mentioned, by one of several competing purchasers, do you see any difficulty in the way of a fisherman continuing to live and support himself, as an operative in any trade has now to do?-There would be very great difficulty at first, because the greater proportion of fishermen in Shetland are dependent on the supplies which they receive from the fish-curer to whom they fish. At many times the weather is so bad that they have not sufficient to live upon, and are obliged to go to the fish-curer and ask him for the necessaries of life for themselves and their families.
16,477. But in a time of slackness in the iron trade, or any other trade the same difficulty might beset the operative?-Yes, he might be in want of supplies. I have no doubt that the operatives in Lancashire and the manufacturing districts often suffer what our Shetland fishermen have no conception of. I thoroughly believe, however, that any sufferings which they might be exposed to in the first instance might be relieved in some way, which I cannot at present suggest; but still afterwards their condition would be greatly improved, because such a system would give them a great deal more self-reliance, and the knowledge that they were simply getting payment for what they delivered would make them more independent and more energetic. I believe the result would be a greatly increased fishery in the islands, and the throwing over of that serf spirit which exists at present among so many of the tenants in the islands who fish.
16,478. Is it not the case that the Shetland fisherman has an advantage over the operative in the south, in respect that he has got a piece of land, which of itself is often sufficient to support him and his family during the greater part of the year?-Generally speaking, the crofts would do so. It would be a very poor croft indeed which would not support them for at least six months a year. In such a case the piece of ground must be very small, or at all events it may be their own indolence which leads them not to make the most of it; but in that way the Shetland fishermen have a great advantage over the operatives in the town, who, if they do not earn a day's wages, cannot get a single farthing's worth of food, except from the charity of others.
16,479. But then it is said that the fishing is it more precarious trade, and extends only over it period of the year in Shetland. Does that not counterbalance any advantage which the fisherman derives from having a croft?-It is true that the fishing is a precarious trade, but we have always found that whenever the weather permits, energetic men can make a very fair earning from it. Of course, when the weather does not permit, it is impossible they can do anything except in the way of inshore fishing; but unless the weather is very bad indeed, if a man will only try he will get as much from that as will save his family from starvation. I think the advantage he has by his croft will compensate for any disadvantage to which he is exposed by the occurrence of periods of bad weather; and therefore I consider that his position is infinitely superior to that of an operative in a time of strike or it time of bad trade, when manufacturers are obliged to cast off their hands from want of sufficient work to keep their mills or their manufactories going.
16,480. Do you consider he would be better even if a system of cash payments were introduced, and he did not fall back or could not fall back upon the fish-curer when he was in want of supplies?-I consider it would be much better.
16,481. Would a system of cash payments be an insuperable obstacle in the way of a man of steady and respectable habits and good repute, obtaining advances in provisions from any merchant in his neighbourhood?-I believe it would help him very considerably. I consider that if it system of cash payments was introduced, [Page 418] a man would find a great deal more facility in getting goods at the lowest possible price from any person who might wish to put up a store in his neighbourhood.
16,482. Are you aware that a great amount of apprehension exists among fishermen in Shetland lest any change in the present system involving payments in cash should deprive them of the support which they derive from the fish-merchants in bad seasons?-I am aware that that is a very prevalent idea among them, and several instances of it have come under my notice during the last two or three years.
16,483. Are you of opinion that that apprehension may have had some effect in making the fishermen unwilling to come forward and to give evidence freely before this Commission?-I have not the slightest doubt that that has prevented men from coming forward who would have been able to have given the best possible evidence with regard to the questions you have asked me.
16,484. Are you now speaking from your knowledge of the people and of the system for many years?-I am speaking from my experience of the people and of the system, which experience has extended over more than 20 years.
16,485. Would it be possible to introduce a system of cash payments in this way, by allowing the fish to be paid for at the current price at the end of the season, if the parties so agreed, and arranging that at delivery a certain proportion of the price should be paid in cash: for example, that three-fourths of the average price for the last five years should be paid them, leaving the remainder of the price to be paid according to the current price as ascertained at the end of the season, thus giving the men the benefit of any rise which might take place in the market by that time?-I am afraid that if such a system were adopted, the party who got the fish from the men even on one occasion, and paid three-fourths or two-thirds of the value of the fish delivered according to the contract price, would have such a power over the men, that, even supposing a competitor came forward, say in a month afterwards, to buy their fish, they would not be able to sell to him although he offered a higher price, because the knowledge that there was a balance standing in the hands of the merchant to whom they had sold in the first instance would hinder them from taking advantage of the increased price from the other, for fear they might not be treated in the way in which they ought to be at the settlement.
16,486. But the question which I put assumed that the engagement of the fishermen was for the whole season?-I cannot see how in that case it would alter the system. It would remain the same as it is at present, because, if the engagement was entered into for the year, although there might be no contract or obligation on the fishermen to take supplies from the man who bought their fish, yet there would be a certain feeling on their part which would force them, as it were, to go with their money which they had received as part payment, and buy goods with it from his place. Therefore the merchant might have the same monopoly which he at present enjoys.
16,487. But if the men had the cash, would that monopoly be in any way injurious,-if you can call it a monopoly where the men have the choice between two shops, and voluntarily prefer that of the fish-curer?-Under the present system of land tenure it would have no effect, because whoever the landlord favoured, if the landlord was not a fish-curer himself, would of necessity have the preference in the dealings of the fishermen, as they would know that under the present system they are liable to get forty days' warning and be turned out of their farms at Martinmas.
16,488. Do you mean that under the present system the fishermen would consider themselves bound to deal at the shop of the landowner or tacksman if he were engaged in fishing?-If a system of money payments were adopted they might not consider themselves bound to do so, but there would be so many petty vexations put upon them, that the men, out of regard for their own comfort, would decidedly give the preference to the tacksmaster's or the landlord's shop, if he happened to be in the trade, notwithstanding that they might have to pay a trifle more for the goods which they got at his shop.
16,489. Then is it your opinion that, without altering the system of land tenure in Shetland, a system of cash payments would be unavailing to improve the condition of the people?-If no landlord and no tacksman under a landlord was in the fishery trade, then an improvement might be effected, but so long as landlords and tacksmen-who have power over the land sometimes to a much greater degree than the landlord himself can exercise-are fish-curers themselves, it is impossible that a system of cash payments can have any effect in ameliorating the condition of the fishermen as it now exists.
16,490. In what way do you think it possible to modify the system of long settlements now existing with regard to the Faroe fishing?-The only way possible, seeing that the voyage to Faroe extends to six or nine weeks on an average, would be, that when the agreements are made out a contract should be entered into between the owner and fishermen along with these agreements, providing that they are to deliver their fish at a certain price per ton weighed out on their arrival at a port in Shetland, whatever port they may agree to deliver them at.
16,491. Then, in the case of the Faroe fishery, you would suggest that the price should be known before the vessel sails, and not, as you propose with regard to the ling fishery, at the time of delivery?-No, I don't say that. The difference is, that the owner of a Faroe vessel, according to the present agreement, has the risk of the vessel and of the outfit, and also of the salt and of materials necessary for the prosecution of the fishery. In most cases, indeed in all cases, he requires to give advances to a certain extent to the crew, say from at the lowest to £7 or £8 in other cases. If he did not have the power of getting the fish in his own hands, by having a contract from the men to deliver their fish to him at a certain price rather than to others on their arrival after the first voyage the men would have the power to deliver their fish perhaps to another competitor, and the result would be, as is sometimes the case in the Greenland trade at present, where the men are paid at the Custom House, that his advances would not be paid to him at all. The difference appears to me to consist in this, that the fish-curer who gets the fish is the owner of the Faroe fishing vessel, whereas in the ling fishing the men who fish in the boats are the owners of them. That, in my opinion, makes a great difference.
16,492. It is part of the agreement in the Faroe fishing that the merchant should have delivery of all the fish, and that he is entitled to it, because he is the partner of the men in all that they take?-That it is the agreement
16,493. Then you think it would be possible, and perhaps expedient, that a settlement should take place at the return of the vessel from each voyage?-I believe most of the owners would agree to that; but my impression, from the feeling which I know to exist among the fishermen, is, that they would have a notion that they were lying under a disadvantage by making a contract before the fishing commenced.
16,494. Do you think the fishermen get any advantage in the Faroe trade from having their fish paid for at the current price at the end of the season?-They get a very considerable advantage in that way. We have been in the habit for several years of purchasing fish from vessels owned by Englishmen, and manned by English fishermen from Grimsby and Hull. We pay them a certain price per ton, cash down, when the fish are landed on the beach, and we are supposed to make, and I may say that we do make, a profit upon these fish when they are sold in a dried state. Our fishermen, generally speaking, get within a commission of the price that we receive for these Englishmen's fish, which fish are quite as good as our Shetland fish, and therefore they have the difference of the profit which we make on the price we pay for the fish in a green or wet state and the price that we receive when the fish are dried.
[Page 419]
16,495. Then, if the settlement were to take place at each landing of the fish, in whatever way it was made, you think the men would lose that advantage?-I don't say they would lose in all cases. In some cases they would gain. We have often lost in buying fish in that state, because the markets at the end of the season have fallen so very heavily.
16,496. Would there be any objection, in your opinion, to bringing the vessels employed in the Faroe trade under the regulations of the Merchant Shipping Act applicable to foreign-going ships?- There would be very great objection to that. It would ruin the fishery altogether if there was the slightest restriction upon the vessel sailing at any moment: a great part of a fishing voyage might be lost. In my opinion, a delay of twenty-four hours has, in many cases, hindered a crew of mine from gaining £100.
16,497. When a vessel comes in from her first Faroe voyage, how long does she usually remain in harbour?-That depends very much on the energy displayed by the men in getting the fish out and getting on board their supplies of salt and other fishing material requisite for the next voyage. I know vessels which have taken a week, and I know other vessels which have been off again in forty-eight hours. It cannot be done in less time than that.
16,498. I believe the vessels on their return don't always come to Lerwick?-No; the most of them go to the west side,-to Scalloway and the adjacent places in the islands.
16,499. So that it would be necessary to have a Custom House officer in each of these places, if any such regulations were adopted with regard to the Faroe smacks?-It would be necessary to have a Custom House officer in at least eight different places in Shetland.
16,500. Do you mean that there are eight places frequented by these Faroe vessels where they are in the habit of landing their cargoes?-There are eight places where the vessels go, no matter at which place they land; but there are more than thirty or forty different places in the islands at which they land their fish. I am simply referring to the places where the owners of the vessels live, and where the vessels go in order to receive stores and salt after the fish have been landed.
16,501. Then the fish may be landed at a different place altogether from where the vessel has afterwards to receive her stores and salt?-Yes.
16,502. But they do go to one of these eight places invariably before starting on their second voyage?-Yes.
16,503. What are these eight places?-Voe, Vaila Sound, Skeld Voe, Reawick, Bixter, Tresta, Whiteness, Scalloway, and Lerwick.
16,504. Do you think it is advantageous for the fishcurer, as a matter of business, to have a shop for the supply of his fishermen; and do you think that a system of short payments or of cash payments would be consistent with the fish-curer remaining also the keeper of a shop?-I don't consider that it would be advantageous for a fish-curer to have a shop where there was sufficient competition to cause him to sell at the low rates of profit which obtain in all places where there is a proper amount of competition, because he undertakes a risk which otherwise he would not do. He takes the risk of supplies to men who go to the fishing, and who may come back without anything whatever. Then, if he is not a landlord or tacksmaster, he knows perfectly well that he has not power over these men to force them to serve him for another year; and therefore I consider that if there was a system of short payments, and if the fish-curer had no advances to make to the men, he would be in a better position than at present, if he is a man of capital, and was able to lie out of his money until he could get the fish dried and prepared for market. There is no doubt that fish-curers in Shetland would require to have more capital than they do have if a system of short payments were adopted, because they get credit, perhaps for months, for the goods supplied to the fishermen; whereas if they had to pay cash they would be placed in quite a different position.
16,505. Do they get longer credit on their purchases of goods than merchants in any other parts of the country in consideration of them having to make these advances to fishermen?-I don't say that they get longer credits, but they get sufficient credit perhaps to enable them to get forward so much of their fish. And even suppose they wished a longer credit, they could, from the creditor's knowledge that they had such fish in their possession, obtain a renewal of their bills.
16,506. Are you aware that it is almost the invariable practice for men employed by a fish-curer to take part of their supplies from the shop of their employer?-That is the invariable practice.
16,507. Do you think the men in general have any option as to whether they are to do so or not? I am not speaking of your own business merely, but of the trade generally throughout Shetland?- In the case of men who are in debt they have no option whatever, because other parties would not supply them, knowing that they are bound to deliver the proceeds of their fishing to the fish-curer for whom they fish. But I must also say, that notwithstanding that there are a great number of men who have plenty of money to pay for their advances, whether it is from a knowledge that they can obtain them at the same prices as they can from others, or from carelessness to look after the matter, they generally take advances to a small extent from the party for whom they are fishing.
16,508. You say that a man who is indebted has no option; but a man who has no cash, although he may not be indebted, may be equally without option, may he not, on the same grounds that you have stated?-I should say that he has little option, unless he is a man who is well known, and who has perhaps dealt with some other shopkeeper or grocer previously, and paid him honestly.
16,509. Are you aware whether it is common for the fish-curer to make advances in cash to fishermen during the course of the season, with which they can go and purchase their goods where they please?-I cannot say that, to my knowledge, money has been advanced to fishermen during the course of the season in order that they may purchase goods where they please. I don't think that any of the fishermen coming to ask for money would tell the fish-curer from whom they were asking it for what reason it was being required, unless it was to help to pay rent, or to buy meal or some other necessary article for the house.
16,510. Could he not get the meal at the shop of the fish-curer?- In some cases he may not be able to do so.
16,511. You say that fishermen frequently prefer to take advances from their employer although they may have money of their own?-I don't say that they prefer to take it; but I know in my own experience, that, without any solicitation on the part of our firm, men who have plenty of money always do take advances to a certain extent.
16,512. Do you suppose they do that in order to save them from drawing their own money from the bank?-I believe that is the case.
16,513. Has it come within your observation whether a practice of hoarding exists to a great extent in Shetland among the fishermen?-I believe it does.
16,514. Even among men who appear upon the books of the merchant with whom they deal to be in his debt to some extent?- I have known several cases of men who have allowed balances to stand over against them year after year, when I knew perfectly well that they had more than sufficient money in their possession to have paid off the debt.
16,515. How do you account for that?-I account for it in this way, that the system has obtained so long of fishermen requiring advances, or rather taking advances, that they cannot see or do not understand, why they should take their own money in order to buy the necessary supplies before they proceed to the fishing. I have no doubt that they have also this idea, that the fish-curer takes a sufficient profit upon the goods supplied, and they consider they have a right to keep [Page 420] their money and not to pay for them until the end of the season.
16,516. Have you or your firm had any connection with the agency for Greenland ships?-None whatever. The only Greenland vessel we ever had any connection with was a Dutch vessel, sent out by an Amsterdam company last year, for the prosecution of the finner whale fishing at Iceland.
16,517. Is there any additional observation you have to make?- The only other observation I have to make is with regard to the evidence given by Mr. Walker at Edinburgh last year relative to the payments to fishermen and their earnings. As the answers which have been given by my firm in the circular sent in to you, refer at least to one of the smallest years with respect to the men's earnings, I should like to make a statement with regard to the gross earnings, and the sums paid at settlement to the fishermen in the previous year, that is, in 1870. For 81 men and boys employed by us that year, after all the supplies which they had received during the season had been paid by them out of their earnings the average payment to each was £23, 15s., and in many cases those who had the greatest earnings did not take up more than one tenth part of them in supplies during the course of the season. Those men who were free men, and who were not bound to fish in any direction except where they wished, were the men who took up the least advances. I now exhibit a statement for the year 1870, proving what I have stated. It refers to six vessels. The gross earnings of the 81 men and boys in that year were £3022, 18s.; the total amount paid in cash was £1923, 0s. 3d., or an average of £23, 15s.
16,518. You mentioned that certain men left your father's island after having cleared off their debt: where did they go?-They went to various other places; they entered chiefly into the Faroe fishing.
16,519. Did any of them return to fish for tacksmen, and deliver their fish green as they had done formerly?-None of them.
16,520. Is it not the case that some of them went to Burra and resumed fishing, and delivered their fish green to the tacksmen there?-The father of the family went to Burra.
16,521. Did you refer to one family consisting of a father and several sons?-Yes.
16,522. Did the father resume his old system of fishing Burra?- Yes.
16,523. Why did he return to Burra?-Because the boys got dissatisfied with the system under which they were fishing, and the old man, of course, finding himself without the help of his sons, could do nothing else than take a croft of land, and try to eke out a living in the best way he could.
16,524. Then, although the men cleared off their debt in the way you have described, by drying their own fish and selling them to you in a dried state, the boys became dissatisfied with that system of fishing?-They became dissatisfied with it, because it was not sufficient to keep them.
16,525. Although it cleared off their debt?-No, they had not cleared it off at the time they left. They cleared it off in consequence of going to the Faroe fishing or elsewhere.
16,526. Then the system of fishing that you refer to, and curing their own fish, did not enable them to clear off their debt?-It did not; but they might never have been in debt if they had been more economical.
16,527. But you referred to that change in their mode of fishing, as showing the effect produced by the difference in the green price and the dry price for fish?-Yes; and if they had remained long enough, I have no doubt they might have cleared off their debt as well as others.
16,528. Then you think they did earn more under that system than under the other system?-Yes.
Lerwick, February 6, 1872, WILLIAM ROBERTSON, examined.
16,529. Are you in the employment of Messrs. Hay & Co. in Lerwick?-I am.
16,530. I believe you desire to give some further evidence on their behalf, with regard to the mode of dealing with men engaged for the seal and whale fishing?-Yes.
16,531. You have prepared a written statement, which you wish to give in as part of your evidence?-Yes.
[The witness put in the following statement:-]
'I am in the employment of Messrs. Hay & Co., and have been for upwards of 28 years, during which time I have had the chief management of their ship-agency business, and particularly as to that part of it connected with the whale ships. It was my part to bring the men and the masters together, and attend to the engagement of the crews. The masters invariably chose the men themselves and fixed their wages, and without any regard whatever as to whether the men had any connection with my employers or not, or might happen to be indebted to them. The masters generally selected first those men who had been with him the previous voyage and that pleased him, and it was no uncommon thing for men to go with the same master for many years. When the men were engaged they always had the option of getting their first month's advance in cash, even before the recent regulations of the Board of Trade; and if they wished it, they also got allotment notes, but they seldom took the latter. In the cases where they did not take all their first month's advance in cash, it was when they required a much larger advance in the shape of warm clothing than the advance could obtain for them. Men going to Greenland require various articles that are not wanted by home fishermen, and which have to be prepared for them specially. Previous to the year 1867 a large proportion of the crews shipped here were young lads from 16 years old and upwards, and the wages from 15s. to 25s. per month. A month's advance could go but a small way in procuring the clothing necessary for such a voyage, and an allotment note could not help them, because sealing voyages were generally short, seldom exceeding two months. The agents had therefore to trust to their getting oil-money and to their honesty in repaying the second year what they could not pay the first. Without such assistance these young men could not go to Greenland; and the consequence of the recent regulations of the Board of Trade having been to prevent them getting the necessary clothing, few of them are now shipped. Of the four crews, consisting of 97 men, shipped by us in 1871, only three lads were under 19 years of age; while in 1866, of the four crews of 67 men, 19 were under that age. Before 1867 I was able to do the greater part of the work of engaging and settling with the crews myself, but since then I have had to be assisted by one or more of the other clerks in the establishment. My employers, that year, foreseeing the extra trouble that would arise from the new regulations, and that the ship agency would interfere with their ordinary business, arranged with the other agents to insist on getting a higher rate of commission, add intimated to the owners for whom they acted, that they would in future charge 5 per cent. instead of 21/2. They were induced to depart from this, because the agreement was not adhered to by some of the other agents; but they have continued in the trade with much reluctance, and chiefly at my instigation, and from friendly feelings for certain of the masters, for whose fathers and grandfathers even the firm had acted. In 1867, and since then, the men have always got their first month's advance in cash at the Shipping Office; they have also been paid in cash the balance owing to them at the end of the voyage whenever they chose to ask it, irrespective of any advances that had been made to them for clothing; but, as a rule they always came promptly and voluntarily to pay their accounts when so settled, and I am not aware of any case where they required to be compelled to do so. The men are very seldom in debt, and we do our [Page 421] utmost to prevent their being so instead of encouraging it, as has been stated in a report made to the Board of Trade. Whenever the ships came to Lerwick on their return voyage, we always endeavoured to get the men to wait and be discharged in a body, but even then could not always effect it; and when they were landed at other parts of the islands we found it quite impossible. It is not true, so far as Hay & Co. are concerned, that they ever took means to prevent the masters coming to discharge their men at Lerwick. On rare occasions, when the ships have come in, and the masters have been anxious to get away again without waiting to attend at the Shipping Office, I may have written at their request a letter of excuse to the shipping master, but certainly never advised them to go away. It is quite true that when I have paid off men before the shipping master, who had accounts to settle, I have told them to go down to the office and I would follow. Once or twice men have offered to pay me at the Shipping Office, and particularly on one occasion when a man had a trifle to pay he offered it there, which seemed greatly to offend the shipping master, who appeared to dislike the trouble of having to take the men separately. I have been told that a larger proportion of advances in clothing is made to the Peterhead men than to our people, and that such is charged in the masters' accounts there, although not permitted here.'
16,532. You say in that statement, 'The masters invariably chose the men themselves and fixed their wages, and without any regard whatever as to whether the men had any connection with my employers or not, or might happen to be indebted to them. In point of fact, were the men engaged by the masters not generally indebted to the agent?-The masters knew nothing about that.
16,533. But were they not so in point of fact?-They were not, in most cases.
16,534. Had they not arranged in most cases, before going on board the ship or going before the master, to take part of their outfit from your firm?-No; they came and asked that after they had been engaged.
16,535. Did they not purchase their outfit until they had been engaged?-No.
16,536. Had you many cases of men who were engaged by masters through you purchasing their outfit from other shops?-I cannot say. Sometimes I believe that was the case; but of course I could not know what they did in other shops.
16,537. Did all of them come to your shop for part of their outfit at least?-Generally for part of it; but I have seen men who had nothing from our shop except what are called mess things-things which the men have to provide jointly.
16,538. I understand you collect the men and take them before the captains?-Yes.
16,539. Do you make any selection of them before doing so?-No; the captain selects his own men. If the men are strange to the captain, he may ask me if I could find a good man for him, and I may do so, and have done it; but that is the only kind of selection have made.
16,540. But before the men are taken before the captain at all, is there no negotiation on your part as to the men who are to go?- No. If the man has gone in a ship before, he will come and tell me that he wants to go again in that particular ship.
16,541. Do you present a list of the men to the master?-The master generally has a list of his last year's hands, and if he likes them he will take them again, or any part of them he chooses; and if any of them are not suitable for him, he selects the rest from the other men who come forward.
16,542. But do the men that the master selects all come up before him without any list of their names being made beforehand?-He generally has a list of his former crew there to look at.
16,543. Is there any list of the other men besides those of his former crew?-No.
16,544. Are the names of the men wanting engagements not entered in your books?-No.
16,545. Do you not keep a list of the men who come to you asking to be engaged?-We never do that. The men are always there, and I just tell them to be at the place when the master comes, and then he takes his own men.
16,546. But if a man comes in from the country or applies to you for an engagement before the vessel arrives, would you not take a note of that?-No. I merely tell him to be there at the time, and see if there vacant berth that will suit him.
16,547. Do you go up with him before the master?-He goes along with the rest.
16,548. Do you, as acting for Messrs. Hay, ever refuse the application of any man who comes wanting Perth?-We cannot do so, because we always leave that to the master, who can take any man he chooses.
16,549. Do you ever refuse to suggest a man to the master, or to bring him before the master?-I never refused to do that, unless he was a useless man that I knew was of no use.
16,550. Then you have refused to suggest a man in such a case?- Yes; if a man was not a good hand, or the like of that, I would tell the master so, and then he could take him or not as he chose.
16,551. But have you ever said to a man when he came applying for a berth, 'I cannot take you,' or 'I won't take you, before the captain?'-Not to my recollection.
16,552. Then a man might as well go to the master at once as apply through you for an engagement?-The master comes to the place to select his own men, and some of them go on board and apply to him themselves.
16,553. If you make no selection at all beforehand, is there any use for them applying to an agent? Might the men not go to the master at once and be selected by him, without your intervention at all?- They might; but the master wants an agent to assist him in collecting his men.
16,554. What assistance does the agent give him?-He helps him in engaging them. For instance, the articles are all filled up by the agent, except the names, before going to the Custom House, so as to facilitate business there. Perhaps there may be a number of ships lying here at one time, and there are a number of arrangements to be made. The agent carries through all that, and the master has merely to attend at the Custom House and see the thing completed.
16,555. That is to say, you give the master certain assistance after he has selected the men?-After he has selected the men we take down their names, their places of birth, and so on, and enter them in the articles.
16,556. But before he selects the men the agent has done nothing?-No further than that if a man comes wanting an engagement, the agent will tell him that the master will be on shore at a certain time, and the men are told to be there.
16,557. Is that the statement which is invariably made the men applying for berths to you, without exception?-Yes, invariably; except it is a man that I know is of no use and then I may tell him that I can say nothing for him.
16,558. How many men out of 100 applicants might you say that to?-Not many. I never turn any away if the man chooses to go and take his chance; but if I know that the man is not a suitable hand, I tell him that he cannot expect me to recommend him. But there are very few men of that kind.
16,559. Do you remember any cases in 1871 in which you intimated to the men that they were of no use, and that they would not get a berth?-I don't recollect any.
16,560. Do you remember any particular cases of that kind in the year previous?-I do not recollect any.
16,561. Have you ever intimated to any man who was owing you an account that he was of no use, and would not get a berth?-No, not to my knowledge.
16,562. In what way do you know that a man is of [Page 422] no use?-By being told by masters that he was of no use.
16,563. Have you a general knowledge of the men's abilities from their reputation?-Yes, from what I hear from the sailors who have gone in the same ship; or if the master has found them not to be suitable hands, he tells me not to send them to him again. But there are very few instances of that kind; perhaps not one out of 100 or 200.
16,564. Was that the mode of selecting the men which was in use five or six years ago?-They were all selected in the same way by the master; he was always present.
16,565. But had not the agents more power in selecting the men some time ago than they have exercised lately?-Not so far as we were concerned. I cannot speak for others.
16,566. When a man went to another agent for employment, being in debt to Hay & Co., was it usual for that agent to enter the men's debt to you in his books, in order to obtain a settlement of it for you?-Not lately; but sometimes it has been done.
16,567. Was it done on the application of Messrs. Hay?-Yes.
16,568. Does the captain apply to you for some opinion as to the qualifications of the men?-Yes, if he does not know them himself.
16,569. You have told me that you have generally made yourself pretty well acquainted with the men's abilities?-Yes.
16,570. Then I suppose only a certain proportion of each crew shipped at Lerwick consists of men who have been in that captain's employment previously, perhaps one third?-Sometimes they had almost all been in the same ship before, but they changed agents occasionally. Perhaps sometimes one half of them might re-ship.
16,571. But very often the captain would secure one half or one third of new hands?-Yes.
16,572. In that case you must be consulted a good deal about the qualifications of the men?-Yes. I tell the master about them, so far as I know; and in some cases, perhaps if he ships a man, that man may be able to recommend another to him.
16,573. But I suppose the captain attaches considerable weight to your recommendation?-Perhaps he does.
16,574. Have you any reason to doubt that he does?-I have not. I would not recommend a man if I did not know him to be a good hand.
16,575. Has a captain ever refused to follow your recommendation and to take a man whom you had recommended?-When he had plenty of men of his own, of course he would take no others than them.
16,576. But when he was in want of men, did he generally follow your recommendation?-Sometimes I have seen him in doubt between two or three men whom I have recommended, and he selected any one of the three that he liked himself.
16,577. If you recommended one man in preference to another, have you ever seen him take a man of whom you disapproved?- In some instances I have seen him take a man who had been recommended to him by another that he had engaged, instead of a man that I could recommend. The man had sailed with him before, and he recommended another man with whom he was acquainted, and the captain engaged him.
16,578. In that case he might suppose that the shipmate had a more intimate knowledge of the man's abilities than you could have from hearsay?-That is very likely.
16,579. But if there were no such influences as that, have you ever known the captain refusing to follow your recommendation?-No. If he asked me for good man, and I could bring him one and did it, he took him.
16,580. Has any captain complained that you, or those acting for Messrs. Hay & Co., had suggested men who were not preferable on account of their abilities, but who were owing accounts, or were likely to incur accounts to Messrs. Hay?-It is very seldom that I had the chance of recommending men who were in debt to us. I never studied that in recommending a man to a master.
16,581. Was that because you had so few accounts with the men?-We generally had accounts with them all when they went out but there were a few that we had no accounts with.
16,582. Have you any doubt that the men were under the impression or had an understanding that they ought to get their supplies and their outfit, to a certain extent at least, from the agent who engaged them?-They expect that the agent will supply them.
16,583. But does the agent expect that they will give him their custom?-There is no force in that case.
16,584. I am not saying there is force, but does the agent expect that?-We must provide for it, whether they want it or not.
16,585. What must you provide?-We must provide clothing for the men in case they want it.
16,586. But does the agent expect that the men whom he engages for the Greenland whale fishing will come to him for their outfit, or part of it?-Yes, because they had generally done so; but they have never been forced to do so.
16,587. I am not saying that they are forced, but does the agent expect that?-Of course he does, and he is prepared for it.
16,588. Do the men know that he expects that?-I daresay they do.
16,589. Was not that the principal consideration in inducing the agents to undertake to carry on the agency?-I cannot say what it was in former times, because there was an agency in the house before my time, and I came into it after it was established.
16,590. But is it not the case that you are giving up the business because the 21/2 per cent. commission is an insufficient remuneration for your trouble?-Yes, it is insufficient for the trouble we have; and I daresay if it had not been for the circumstance that the present masters are sons and. grandsons to masters who had been coming to the house long ago, we would have given it up sooner.
16,591. Have accounts for outfit and supplies for men employed in the Greenland fishing become less in recent years than they were ten or a dozen years ago?-I daresay in some cases they have.
16,592. Is it not the case that they have done so upon the whole?- Yes, because there are not so many green hands taken now as there were then.
16,593. You have found it necessary to restrict your credits to them?-On the short voyages we have. A voyage of two months is not like one of five or six months.
16,594. You have therefore lost part of the profit which formerly accrued upon these agencies?-Of course if the outfits are less, the profits must be less.
16,595. Is that the reason why you have found it necessary to give up the business?-That is not the reason. It is because of the trouble we had with them. I believe we have perhaps sold as much to the men this year as we did when we had the agency.