Dan. Taylor, Chairman.
At a Meeting of the Deputies appointed for supporting the Civil Rights of Protestant dissenters, held at the King’s Head Tavern, in the Poultry, London, May 15, 1811,William Smith, Esq. M. P. in the Chair:
Resolved, That liberty of conscience, comprehending the freedom of public assemblies for religious worship and instruction, in such forms and under such teachers as men shall for themselves approve, is the unalienable right of all; in the peaceable exercise of which they are not justly controlable by the civil magistrate.
Resolved, That this liberty has been generally recognized in the practice of the British Government since the æra of the Revolution, under the construction of the statute commonly called the Toleration Act; whatever may have been the letter of the law, the spirit of toleration has been extended, and a large portion of religious liberty actually enjoyed.
Resolved, That we have beheld, with great concern, a Bill lately brought into Parliament, designed, as appears to us, toabridge such religious liberty, and having a tendency to deprive the lower classes of the community of those opportunities which they have so long enjoyed, to attend public worship and religious instruction under teachers of their own choice.
Resolved, That, as deputies appointed by large and respectable bodies of Protestant dissenters to attend to their civil rights, it becomes our bounden duty immediately to protest against the principle of such measure, and to point out the unjust and vexatious operation of the aforesaid Bill, as now brought into Parliament.
Resolved, That a Petition against the said Bill, grounded on the principles of the foregoing resolutions, be signed by the members of this meeting, and presented to the legislature.
Resolved, That the foregoing resolutions be signed by the chairman, and inserted in all the public papers.
W. Smith, Chairman.
At a Numerous and Respectable Meeting of Protestant Dissenters of various Denominations, and other Friends to Religious Liberty, residing in different parts of the United Empire, held at the London Tavern, Bishopsgate Street, May the 15th, 1811,Samuel Mills, Esq. in the Chair.
It was unanimously agreed,
I.Thatthis meeting believe that there are at least two millions of Protestant dissenters in the kingdom of England and Wales, including persons of opulent fortunes, high literary attainments, and active benevolence: that their exertions have contributed to promote industry, knowledge, good morals, social order, and public prosperity. That they are not inferior to any of their fellow-subjects in fervent love to their country, nor in ardent loyalty to their venerable sovereign, whose early promise, ‘TO PRESERVE THE TOLERATION INVIOLATE,’ has made an indelible impression on their hearts;—and that any measures which might excite their discontent and enfeeble their attachment, would, therefore, at any time, and especially at this period, be inconsistent with the national interest, and with wise and liberal policy.
II. That although this meeting consider the right to worship God according to individual judgment as an inalienable right superior to all social regulations; and, although they have long anticipated a period when all penal laws for worshipping God according to their consciences would be abolished, they have been unwilling to agitate the public mind for the attainment of their hopes; and presuming that no persons would, in this age, venture to assail the Act of Toleration, after the ever-memorable declaration of the King, they have been content to regard it with grateful emotions, and to esteem it as an effectual protection against the recurrence of former persecutions.
III. That the persons assembled at this meeting have received, with great anxiety, the communications frequently made by the Right Hon. Viscount Sidmouth, of his intention to propose legislative enactments, interfering with the laws relating to Protestant dissenters; that they did hope the applications he has received, and the information communicated, would have prevented his perseverance. But they have learned the disappointment of their hopes, and have ascertained the provisions of the Bill which he has at length introduced into parliament with extreme regret, and with painful apprehension.
IV. That this Bill declares that all the provisions relating to dissenting ministers, contained in the Toleration Act, and in the subsequent Act for their further relief, were intended to be limited only to ministers of separate congregations; and enacts, 1. That such ministers upon being admitted to the peaceable possession and enjoyment of the place of minister of a separate congregation, may, on a certificate in writing, under the hands of substantial and reputable householders belonging to such congregation, signed in the presence of some credible witness, who is to make proof of their signatures upon oath at a general Sessions of the Peace, be permitted to take the oaths, and to sign the declaration previously required; and shall then, and then only, during their continuance to be ministers of such separate congregation, be intitled to all the privileges and exemptions which the former acts had conferred. 2. That any other person who may desire to qualify himself to preach as a dissentingminister, must procure several substantial and reputable householders, being dissenters of the same sect, and of the same congregation, to certify on their consciences, in writing, to his being a Protestant dissenting minister of their sect, and of the same congregation, and to their individual and long knowledge of his sobriety of conversation, and of his ability and fitness to preach; and that such certificate must be proved, as before stated, before he be exempt from the pains, penalties, and punishments to which he would otherwise be liable as a dissenting minister. And, 3. That any person of a sober life and conversation, admitted to preach on probation to any separate congregation, must produce a certificate from several dissenting ministers (who have taken the oaths, to be also proved on oath at a general Session) of his life and conversation, and to their long previous knowledge, before he can be permitted to take the oaths and subscribe the declaration; and that he may then, during a limited period, to be specified in the certificate, officiate as a probationer to any dissenting congregation, and be during a limited period, exempt from prosecution and punishment. But neither of the two last mentioned classes of persons, will be entitled to any privileges, or to the exemptions from offices conferred on dissenting ministers by the Toleration Act.
V. That the principle assumed as the foundation of the Bill is incorrect:—That the Toleration Act authorised any persons to become dissenting ministers who conceived themselves to be called and qualified to preach, upon giving security to the State for their loyalty and christian principles, by taking certain oaths and subscribing certain declarations; and not only prevented their persecution under laws made in times less favourable to civil and religious liberty, but conceiving their labours to be of public utility, granted to them exemptions from all parochial offices and other duties which might interfere with their more important exertions:—That such construction of the Act of Toleration has been sanctioned by the general practice of a century, and has never beenimpugnedimpugnedby any decision in a superior court of law; and that even if such construction be incorrect, and legislative exposition be required, such declaratoryBill ought to follow the intention of the Act which has subsequently passed; and should extend and not contract,—protect and not impair, the relief afforded by the former ancient and venerable statute.
VI. That the Bill introduced into parliament is not justified by any necessity, and will be highly injurious; that it is unnecessary, because the evils presumed to result from the abuses of the existing laws, by a few persons who may have improperly taken the oaths required from dissenting preachers and teachers, do not exist but to a most inconsiderable extent; and because the extension of all such abuses has been anxiously, and would be effectually discountenanced by every class of Protestant dissenters—and that it must be injurious, because it will introduce forms unprecedented, inconvenient, or impracticable; will render itinerant preachers, students of divinity, ministers on probation, and many persons to whose ardent piety and disinterested labours multitudes are indebted for religious instruction, liable to serve all civil offices, ... and will expose all ministers, or the witnesses to their certificates, to be harrassed by repeated attendances at different sessions, and to capricious examinations, and unlimited expence,—because, by limiting the right of persons to become dissenting ministers, it will impose new restrictions on toleration; and because it will create a precedent for future attempts at even more dangerous or fatal experiments against religious liberty.
VII. That, although most reluctant to interference with political affairs, they cannot but regard the present attempt with peculiar sensations of alarm; and that veneration for their ancestors, regard to their posterity, respect for rights which they can never abandon, and the sacred obligations which they feel, will therefore compel them to disregard all doctrinal and ritual distinctions, and to unite by every legitimate effort to prevent the pending Bill from passing into a law, and to oppose the smallest diminution of the privileges secured by the Act of Toleration.
VIII. That from the noble declaration of the liberal-minded and illustrious Prince Regent of the Empire, that he will deliverup the constitution unaltered to his Royal Father, this meeting are encouraged to indulge confident hope that a measure so innovating and injurious can never obtain the sanction of his high authority; and they also rejoice that it has not been introduced by his Majesty’s government; that respectful application be therefore made to them for their wise and continued protection; that a petition to the House of Lords against the Bill be signed by all the persons present at this meeting, and that all congregations of Protestant dissenters, and other friends of religious liberty throughout the empire, be recommended to present similar petitions, and that a committee consisting of persons resident in London, be appointed to effectuate these proceedings, and to adopt any measures they may deem expedient to prevent the successful prosecution of this Bill; and that dissenting ministers of every denomination resident in the country, be also members of this committee: and that such committee may increase their number, and that any three members be competent toact.act.
S. MILLS, Chairman.
I now return to the proceedings of the general committee of the societies of the late Rev. John Wesley.
On Thursday they were closely engaged all day in carrying the aforesaid measure into effect, and sending a copy of the resolutions into every circuit throughout the kingdom, that their friends might know the opinion of the committee on the subject, and be prepared to co-operate with it, in every future measure which might be deemed necessary to the preservation of our religious rights.
As Lord Sidmouth had fixed on Friday the 17th for the second reading of the Bill, there was but little time for obtaining signatures to a petition; however, this little time was improved, and on Friday morning, before eleven o’clock, upwards of twothousandthousandsignatures were obtained to petitions from their different societies and congregations in the two London circuits.
Application was made to Lord Erskine, who paid the utmost attention to their case; at the same time he most readily engaged to present their petitions to the House, and to oppose the Bill; as did also Lords Grey and Holland.
In the evening, Lord Stanhope moved, that the second reading of the Bill should be deferred till some future day, which motion was seconded by Earl Grey, and acceded to by Lord Sidmouth; who in a short speech informed the House, that on Tuesday the 21st he should bring the subject forwards fordiscussiondiscussion.
This delay was considered a favourable interposition of Providence, as it afforded the Committee opportunity for procuring parchments, and preparing a copy of a petition, to be sent into those circuits from whence they could be returned before Tuesday noon. Special messengers were sent to Bristol, Birmingham, and into some parts of Kent and Sussex; and these were provided with directions and parcels, to be left in every circuit through which they passed, that the urgency of the business might be understood, and every energy exerted to accomplish their purpose.
To evince the zeal and activity which prevailed on this occasion, I here give an extract from a letter written by a gentleman of high respectability, who was actively engaged in this business.
“May 23, 1811.
“Since last Thursday I have been fully occupied, by the “Committee of Privileges,” on the business of Lord Sidmouth’s Bill. On Saturday night at eight o’clock two post chaises and four, set off on this important business, one to Birmingham, and the other to Bristol. At half past eleven the same night, I was sent to seek another, but after going all over the city, was obliged to return to the committee room without one. At half past twelve o’clock, I procured a coach in Aldersgate-street, and, with a friend, drove all over the town in search of a conveyance. A little before three o’clock in the morning while we were knocking up the people at thefifteenthInn, a respectablelooking man came up with a lanthorn and enquired, “what was the matter?” we answered ‘we wanted a post chaise and four, and must have it, it being on parliamentary business.’ He replied “he could have supplied us had we come at a more seasonable hour, but now he had only one post boy in the house, and he was gone to bed.” We begged of him to do what he could for us, and at length persuaded him to drive ushimself. The horses were put to in a trice, and we set off full speed for Bromley, which we reached in an hour and a quarter. Here we again knocked up the people at the Inn, but lost half an hour before they were ready. Having left our petitions, with solemn orders to deliver them as soon as it was light, we set off for Sevenoaks, which we reached before seven o’clock. Here, while we were explaining the nature of the business we came on, to Mr. ______ we partook of a hasty breakfast. We then jumped into the chaise and started for Tunbridge; having delivered our parcels and given suitable directions, we drove on to the Wells; after delivering our message there, with steady course we pursued our way to Rye, and drove up to the chapel. The morning service was concluded and the people were just coming out; we instantly desired them to stop, telling them, we had come express from London on very important business. Having ascended the pulpit stairs, with every eye fixed upon us, we laid before them the purport of our mission, by informing them of the Bill, and explaining its nature. We then informed them of the Committee appointed for guarding their privileges, and read their resolutions: we told them also of whom the Committee consisted, and that we had travelled the whole night to reach them at that time. We then requested those to stay who wished to sign the petition; not a dozen went away till they had signed. One man indeed, when he heard none was permitted to sign who was under sixteen, whispered to another, and said, “he should not sign, for he thought it was a scheme to take them by surprise to get them drawn for the Militia.”
“We dispatched messengers to the places adjacent, to beready for the evening service: one went out thirteen miles, and did not return until midnight. I left my friend Mr. _______ at Rye, while I went to Winchelsea, about three miles off. The minister had just concluded his sermon when I arrived; having informed him of my design, he requested the whole congregation to stop when the service was ended. I then stated the case, and most of the people signed the petition: one man came and said, “pray Sir, let somebody sign for me.” “My good man,” said I, “it will not be allowed, you must assist us by your prayers.” “Really Sir,” said another, “I could wish to sign, but l never wrote my name in my life, but do give me the pen and I will try!”
“At twelve o’clock on Monday we bent our course homeward, and on Tuesday about the same hour, we reached town. We sat close till five o’clock in the afternoon, sending off petitions, in alphabetical order, by coaches, till a message came down express from the House of Lords to inform us, that the business was about to begin. Every one therefore took his arms full and conveyed them to the coach, which instantly drove off with all speed to the House. I and two other friends had three good loads of those remaining ones which were taken from us at the door of the anti-chamber of the House.
“We had at that time above a thousand petitions on the road. The operations of the Bill were not known beyond the environs of the Metropolis, and yet a mighty flood of petitions poured in. Lord Erskine undertook the cause of our societies.
“After bringing into the House many bags full, the petitions were still so numerous, that his Lordship was obliged to fetch the rest from the anti-chamber in his arms, and he came down to the House several times in this manner loaded like a porter.”
I was myself at Leeds at the time when this Bill was pending in the House: the petitions for that Town and neighbourhood arrived on Wednesday morning May 22nd. The Committee which had been previously formed was sitting at the time, and they immediately dispatched messengers into different parts of the town, and the adjacent villages, to obtainsignatures. In the course of that afternoon and the forenoon of the following day some thousands had signed the petitions, and had not the business been stopped on the Thursday afternoon by the arrival of the pleasing tidings that the Bill was lost, many thousands more signatures would have been obtained in a few days.
The different denominations of Dissenters in that large and populous Town, formed a Committee of respectable gentlemen, who also manifested great zeal and activity in this noble cause; they deputed several persons to go to their respective congregations in the country, to obtain signatures to their petitions, which they likewise obtained in abundance. Indeed, such unity of sentiment I never witnessed on any subject before; the pious and candid members of the established Church, cordially united with the Methodists and Dissenters to shew their decided disapprobation of the obnoxious Bill, and all, as with one heart and voice, avowed their determination to oppose, to the uttermost, all restrictions on Religious Liberty.
The same activity was manifested, and similar exertions made, in every part of the kingdomwherewherethe nature of the Bill was thoroughly understood, its effects were deeply deplored and deprecated by all classes of people in the land.
“In every place the Messengers met with the most zealous co-operation of the people, who dreading the loss of their religious privileges, came forwards to sign the petitions with an eagerness which was highly honourable to their feelings. At Bristol, the Mayor granted the use of the Town-Hall, and although the notice was so short, yet between twelve and five o’clock on Monday, the petition received upwards of 1900 signatures, and this was in addition to separate petitions from all the dissenting congregations in the city, which were numerously signed. By these means the committee had procured before Tuesday noon upwards of 250 petitions, bearing 30,000 Signatures. The Committee was incessantly employed in examining and taking an account of them. And that every thing might be conducted with the utmost regularity, almost every petition was separately rolled up, tied with red tape, and theplace from whence it came, together with the number of signatures it contained, legibly written on one end of the roll, so that when it was presented, the noble Lord had no difficulty in announcing these particulars to the House. It required the utmost exertions of the committee to prepare all things in readiness before the House met; however, this was accomplished, and the petitions were delivered to Lord Erskine in one of the anti-chambers. His Lordship was pleased to express his satisfaction with what had been done, and whilst he was carrying his burthens into the House, appeared to feel a noble pride in the office he had undertaken to perform.”
Earl Stanhopesaid, he held in his hand a petition against the Bill, signed by upwards of 2000 persons; and he had no doubt that if the Bill was persisted in, the petitioners against it, instead of thousands, must be counted by millions.
The petition having been received, and ordered to lie on the table,
The Earl ofLiverpoolrose, and after bearing his testimony to the good intentions of his noble friend who had introduced the Bill, and who, he was confident, had nothing in view dangerous to the wholesome and wise system of toleration in this country, expressed his doubts respecting the prudence of his farther pressing the measure. If it were pressed, the good that would result, would be comparatively much less than was expected in any view of the subject. But if it were pressed under the present misconceptions of its object, and the alarm and apprehension thereby created, the evils produced by it might farpreponderatepreponderate. The Toleration Laws, he was ready to say, were matters on which he thought the Legislature should not touch, unless it were from causes of great paramount necessity. Under all these circumstances, he trusted that his noble friend would see the propriety of not farther pressing his Bill.
Lord ViscountSidmouthsaid he was placed in a situation of considerable difficulty, as he must consider the sentiments expressed by the noble Earl as the sentiments of the Government of which he was a principal part. Yet, if his noble friend confessed that misconceptions had gone abroad on theobject of his measure, that could not be a reason sufficient for him to withdraw his Bill in the present stage of it. The greatest misconceptions, misapprehensions, and he might add, misrepresentations of the Bill had been made without doors; so that although it was not regular in that stage to enter into particulars, he should for convenience, if not regular, take that opportunity of stating what the Bill was and what it was not.
EarlGreyspoke to order. He would be the last person to interrupt the noble Viscount, but it was certainly quite out of order to enter into the details of the question on the presentation of the petitions, when the opportunity of addressing the House would so soon occur on the second reading. He was convinced of the purity of intention by which his noble friend was actuated, and that he entertained no design of infringing on the just and liberal toleration of every man’s opinion and worship; but he thought that the present was not the time for discussing the question when they were receiving petitions, unless the reception of them was to be objected to.
Lord ViscountSidmouthsaid he should not farther trouble the House at that time. It had not been his intention to take up their time long; but he should reserve himself till the second reading, then more fully to explain himself.
EarlStanhopepresented fifteen other petitions from different dissenting congregations in various parts of England, (Castlecary, Market Harborough, &c.) which were severally ordered to lie on the table.
LordHollandrose, and said he had numerous petitions to present to the House against the present Bill, the first of which he should move to be read. It was the joint petition of the three denominations of the dissenters in, and in the vicinity of, the metropolis, namely, the Presbyterian, the Baptist, and the Independent. He should say little by way of preface, except that he believed that that, as well other petitions, would shew that the people of this country were not so ignorant of the nature and character of a Bill brought into Parliament as not to see and appreciate its consequences on their civil or their religious liberty. He was happy to hear from the noble Secretaryof State what he had heard from him that night on the impolicy of such a measure. But, he must say, that the noble Viscount had very fairly shaped his course in the proceedings both last session and this. He (Lord Holland) had last June stated his intention to look with much care and great jealousy at any attempt to meddle with or impair the provisions of the Toleration Act, and he thanked the noble Viscount for having so fully explained his views this session. He could not, however, avoid expressing his surprise and regret that the noble Secretary of State had not taken an opportunity, either last session or this, of stating his prudential objection to the adoption of this measure, instead of leaving that to the present occasion, when the petitions against it were crowding in from all parts of England. He then presented the petition, which was received, and ordered to lie on the table.
LordHollandthen stated that he had a great number of other petitions.
The Earl ofMortonsaid it was desirable to know whether any of those petitions contained matter which reflected upon, or was irregular to be presented to that House.
LordHollandsaid he had been unable to read them all. Several he had read, which contained no such matter. But he should feel pleasure in having them all read to the House, if it would not be too inconvenient in respect of time.
The Earl ofLauderdalesaid that he also had many petitions to present. Such was, however, the opinion he entertained of the respectability of character of the persons who had framed them, that, if there was any intention shown of casting doubt or reflections on them, he certainly should move that every one of those which he should present should be read.
The Earl ofMortonwas satisfied with the explanation of the noble Baron (Lord Holland.)
The petitions presented by Lord Holland, 65 in number, were then received, the preambles read, and ordered to lie on the table. They were from congregations in a number of places in Wiltshire, Essex, Dorset, Berks, Middlesex, &c.; one petition we believe, was signed by above 4000 persons.
TheEarlofMoirarose, and after some observations on the respectability of the petitioners, declared his readiness to stake his responsibility for the propriety of the sentiments they contained. His Lordship then presented a great number of petitions from different places in London, Westminster, Surrey, Middlesex, Kent, Cambridgeshire, Essex, Berks, Sussex, Bucks, Wilts, Leicestershire, Norfolk, Hants, Herts, Derbyshire, Warwickshire, Northamptonshire, Oxfordshire, &c. amounting to about seventy, all which were ordered to lie on the table.
TheEarlofLauderdalethen rose, and presented twenty petitions from Bath, the Isle of Wight, Kent, and various other places, with signatures to the amount of more than 10,000 names, all which were taken as read, and ordered to lie on the table.
Earl Greypresented a petition from a Meeting at Bristol, which his Lordship said was intended to have been presented by the High Steward of that city (Lord Grenville.) His noble friend could not attend in the House that night, but he was confident, from what he knew of his opinions respecting the important subject of Toleration, that he was favourable to the prayer of the petition. Ordered to lie on the table.
The Duke ofNorfolkobserved, that persons not dissenters, but friends to the principle of Toleration, had signed the petition.
EarlGreythen presented seventy-seven other petitions from Lewes, Portsmouth, Daventry, Colnbrook, Gloucester, and other places, which were also ordered to lie on the table.
The Earl ofRosslynpresented twenty-five similar petitions from different places. Ordered to lie on the table.
LordErskinestated, that he had two hundred and fifty-five petitions to present on the same important subject. He should make no other prefatory remark, but to say, that they contained the same opinions on that question which he himself maintained on the subject of the Toleration Act. After having read one of the petitions, his Lordship proceeded to present them to the House, when it was a little amusing to see him engagedfor more than half an hour, in lifting up his bags full of rolls one after another, and laying them on the table, then drawing them out and announcing the place from whence each came, and the number of signatures affixed. They were from many parts of the south of England, and some of them had an immense number of signatures.
The Marquis ofLansdownethen stated, that he had above 100 different petitions to present to their Lordships on the same subject, and of the same tenor. The first petition he presented, his Lordship stated, was signed by many persons not Protestant dissenters; several of them beneficed clergymen of the established church, who, equally with the Protestant dissenters, deprecated any interference with the Toleration Laws; and was signed by 896 persons. All these petitions were also received, and ordered to lie on the table.
The number of all the petitions received was about 629.
The order of the day was then called for by several Lords, when
Lord ViscountSidmouthrose, and said, that in moving the second reading of this Bill, he should make no remarks on the number of the petitions which had been presented against it, as he readily supposed that the petitioners sincerely believed what they had expressed with respect to the operation of it. His noble friend (Lord Liverpool) had truly stated, that great misconception and misapprehension had gone forth respecting the Bill, and he must add, great misrepresentation. The various public resolutions were, for the greater part, inapplicable to the real objects of his Bill. When the intelligent mind of his noble friend was not quite free from misconception, he could not wonder at seeing the misapprehensions of others. It seemed to be thought that some change was intended in our Toleration Laws. What was it? The object of the Bill, the clauses of which might be amended in the Committee, was merely to give uniformity to the two Acts on which our system of toleration was founded; its object was not to exclude any class of dissenters, but to comprehend all, according to the spirit and meaning of those Acts. This was the sole purpose of the Bill. He was led to propose it, from information, he hada considerable time since received, of what was and is the prevalent mode of executing those Acts. He lamented to think that the effect of those Bills was, that any persons of depraved morals should be able by taking the oath of allegiance, by making the declaration against popery, and subscribing to certain articles of the church, or declaring himself, under the 19th of the present King, a christian and protestant, and a believer that the Old and New Testaments contained the revealed will of God, to claim his licence, and that his certificate should enable him to preach any where any doctrines he pleased; and that this did, in fact, till 1802, exempt him from many civil and from all military services. At first he could hardly credit that interpretation of the laws. He could state, but that he feared fatiguing their Lordships, informations from many magistrates, of numerous applications at Quarter Sessions, evidently to obtain these exemptions. He had heard of what he confessed was creditable to a sect of Dissenters, wherein they acknowledged these abuses, and expressed their desire to correct them by the expulsion from among them of such unworthy persons; (the Wesleyan connexion was here alluded to.) He had learned with satisfaction, that though the prevalent interpretation of the law was as he had stated, yet with many well-informed and respectable persons it was not so. In Devon, Norfolk, Bucks, and in Suffolk too, he learned that that interpretation was not admitted. Feeling the abuses that were committed, learning the opinions of enlightened men, and the practice of many respectable magistrates on this subject, he had felt it necessary to bring the consideration of it before parliament. He had been encouraged to do so by the opinions of respectable persons, of magistrates, and judges; and he had stated, in June, 1809, that he intended to do nothing but what was with a view to secure the toleration of Protestant dissenters, as well as the support of the church of England, of which he gloried in being a member. By this fair standard he had proceeded, and in his Bill there was nothing to be found inconsistent with it.—He had not contented himself with the authorities he had mentioned, but had sought further information, and even communications with various dissenters. From some of them he had received voluntarycommunications, and with others he had had conversation; and though many wished he should take no steps in the business, few objected to the measure he proposed. They thought merely, though the measure was innocent, yet that it might excite in other quarters a disposition to introduce into it objectionable clauses. They did not seem, on the whole, to think there was any thing in it materially objectionable. Every class of dissenting preachers, in fact, who had separate congregations, were left by this Bill in the same state as before, with the removal of all sorts of impediments, and the magistrate would know better what was his duty on such subjects. What better mode of attestation could there be than that of several persons of the congregation for those who sought for licences? As to the question of substantial and reputable householders, or householders merely, that was a consideration for the Committee. There was no other regulation but to relieve them from different practices at different Quarter Sessions.
The second point applied to such as had not separate congregations. He did not expect to meet with any difficulty on this subject from the quarter whence it rose. It would be a farce to talk of toleration, he confessed, and at the same time to exclude this class of persons from the rights allowed to other Protestant dissenters, though he must say, that he knew they had often given great pain and vexation to many most excellent and meritorious beneficial clergymen. Yet he must in candour admit, that hundreds and thousands of people would, through our own unpardonable and abominable neglect, be deprived of all moral and religious instructions, were it not for the services of these persons. Millions in this country were indebted to them for their religious instruction. (Hear!) We are not at liberty towithholdwithholdthe only means of moral and religious knowledge. He had not, therefore, excluded such persons, which would have been contrary to indispensible and eternal justice. The third point of his Bill related to probationers. He had on that point, proposed that six persons should sign their belief of the sober and exemplary life, of the capacity,&c.; of the individual. What test could be more moderate? His object was to follow up the principles of the toleration laws, which never meant that any person should assume to himself the privilege of a preacher and teacher, and exercise such important functions, without some attestations.—(Hear!) Any person under the Bill might then be chosen, nay, he might be said even to choose himself, if he procured such attestations. He confessed he did, confidently, but, as he had found, vainly, expect, that he should have had the consent of all the sects and descriptions, who felt what was due to the purity, sanctity, and dignity of religion. All he was apprehensive of was, that some friends to the established church might think the Bill would be inefficient for what was requisite; but he never thought that any Protestant dissenter would consider it inconsistent with the wise and just enactments of the toleration laws. He learned that in the customs of dissenters, probation was requisite for the proof of the gifts necessary for the ministerial office; therefore, he had merely proposed that three dissenting preachers should sign a testimony in the probationer’s favour. In our own church, by our ecclesiastical laws, there were certain probations and attestations to be made. A Deacon must have the testimonials of three clergymen to his life, gifts, &c. His name must also be read three times in church. He did not mean to say that this always prevented improper introductions, but that such were the precautions that were observed by law. Though he had received much information on the subject, no man should be placed by him in an unpleasant situation by his stating his name, though there were noble Lords present who knew what information he had received. From the itinerant Methodists, of whom he did not wish to speak disrespectfully, he had grounds on which he expected their approbation. He had formed his opinions from those of magistrates and respectable gentlemen of various descriptions. Objections had been started at first by his noble friend, for whom he had much respect, (Lord Holland) who seemed to think that any man had a right to take on himself the office of teacher, on making the declarations, &c. and thatit was not a question for the Legislature to take up. He would say, that this opinion was utterly inconsistent with the meaning of the Toleration Act. That Act, right or wrong, was a measure of condition. (Hear, hear!from the opposition side.) He never could agree to those broad principles. But in some respects, he thought these laws intolerant; where, for instance, they limited religious doctrines. (Hear, hear!) His noble friend had called the Toleration Act the palladium of religious liberty. What did he admire in it? Its beneficent effects, he had said, in its providing freedom of worship. Could he deny, that it was differently acted upon in different counties? In proportion to his admiration of it, his wish should be to render its operation universal. It was not so at present. There was no case, wherein when the licence had been refused, the party had, at least for many years, resorted to the Court of King’s Bench. He went to another county. Thus, there was a different interpretation in counties bordering upon each other. Let the benefit, therefore, be made universal. If this measure were improper, come at once to the assertion of the broad principle, and try to alter the laws in that way. That broad principle had never existed in any age or in any country.
History, both sacred and profane, shewed the importance that had been always attached to the priesthood, which had never been assumed, but conferred. He was not so read in the sacred writings as he ought to be, and he could touch on them only with great deference. But he had read, “Lay hands suddenly on no man;” and also that persons chosen for such situations should be “of good report.” He could not think of the argument taken from the low condition of those who, in earlier days, received their divine missions, as applicable to present times, and as giving authority to the persons he had alluded to, to lay their claims to divine influence, without any attestation to their character and qualifications. The early ages of the church shewed that purity of character was held indispensible to him who attempted to enter into the solemn offices of the priesthood. His noble friend had said, that no case had been made out. He appealed to their Lordships onthat point. He then stated a circumstance that recently happened at Stafford, when the magistrate, certainly not regularly, required the applicant to write his name, but who answered, that he came there not to write, but to make the declaration. He was convinced he had now made out sufficient grounds for the second reading, and for going into a committee. The noble Lord proceeded to state, from a paper he held in his hand, in which the writer mentioned as an instance of the laxity with which licenses to preach were granted, that he had heard a person in the neighbourhood of London, who seemed well versed in all the atheistical and deistical arguments on the subject of religion, lecturing to a crowded audience for two hours and an half, and broaching the most irreligious and even blasphemous doctrines. The Bill which he had introduced would naturally check the existence or spreading of such abuses, which could not fail to be lamented by every man who was a friend to the morals or the happiness of all classes of society; and he feared that the broad principle stated on a former night by his noble friend, (Lord Holland) tended to let loose this class of men, whose labours must be so destructive of civilized society. Their Lordships did not do their duty if they thought themselves absolved from attending to the prevention of such abuses. It was their duty to protect the ignorant and unwary from being led astray, and to put them on their guard against such mischievous practices. The noble Lord then alluded to various resolutions that had been published in the newspapers. It had surprised him much to observe one set of these resolutions subscribed by a very respectable gentleman, who was a member of the other House of Parliament, (Mr. W. Smith,) in which the Bill was represented as being designed to abridge religious liberty. He saw with astonishment that such an object was ascribed to the measure, than which nothing could be farther from his thoughts. Upon the whole, he could not help expressing an ardent wish that the Bill should be read a second time, in order that it might go into a committee, were it might undergo a variety of amendments. He himself should propose several alterationsin the committee; but if he perceived a strong unwillingness on the part of their Lordships to entertain the Bill, however much he should regret it, he should respectfully acquiesce in their decision. He concluded with moving, that the Bill be now read a second time.
The Archbishop ofCanterburydeclared his utter abhorrence of every species of religious persecution. Whilst he lamented the errors, as he thought them, of the Protestant dissenters from the church of England, he admitted that they had a full right to the sober and conscientious profession of their own religious opinions. The sacred writings were allowed by all Protestants to be the great standard of religious doctrine, but the interpretation of them was liable to error. Uniformity of religious belief was not to be expected, so variously constituted were the minds of men, and consequently religious coercion was not only absurd and impolitic, but for all good purposes impracticable. As to the present Bill, he should deliver his opinion very shortly. It appeared to him that there were only two objects which it had in view; the first was, to produce uniformity in explaining the Act of Toleration, and the second was to render the class of dissenting ministers more respectable, by the exclusion of those who were unfit for the office. These objects seemed laudable in themselves, and calculated to increase the respectability of the dissenting interest. At the same time the dissenters themselves were the best judges of their own concerns: and as it appeared, from the great number of petitions which loaded the table of the House, that they were hostile to the measure, he thought it would be both unwise and impolitic to press this Bill against their consent. He therefore wished that the noble Lord would withdraw it, and put an end to the alarm which had been excited, even though it might be groundless.
LordErskinesaid, that the evidence which they had had in the multiplicity of petitions which he had the honour to present to them against the present Bill, left no doubt as to the opinion entertained by the Dissenters and Methodists on the subject. But it was to be observed that a small part of thepetitions had yet arrived, and that if longer time had been allowed, ten times the present number, which already encumbered their Lordships’ table, and loaded the floor of the House, would have been presented; such was the opinion which the dissenters at large entertained of the measure, and such the anxiety they felt at the appearance of encroachment on any of the privileges which they enjoyed.
The Bill professed to be of a declaratory nature, and only explanatory of the Act of Toleration; but he would contend, that it was repugnant both to the letter and the spirit of the Toleration Act. As to the case of a man teaching blasphemous doctrines, a circumstance to which the noble Lord had adverted as having actually taken place, was not such a person, he would ask, liable to be indicted for a misdemeanour? If a man inculcated sedition or blasphemy from the pulpit, was he not liable to be punished for it? and was not this the case with Winterbotham? There was no occasion for any new law against blasphemy; and therefore, so far there was no occasion for the noble Lord to refer to such an abuse as a ground for the present Bill. His Lordship here made a distinction which is not commonly attended to, and indeed seldom noticed, between the Methodists and other classes of dissenters, by observing that it had ever been their wish to continue members of theestablishedestablishedChurch, had they not been driven by the Conventicle Act to qualify as dissenters, to avoid the penalties which would have otherwise been levied upon them. That some of them, to this day, have chosen to run the risk of such penalties, rather than qualify as dissenters in opposition to their principles, for they do not dissent from the established Church. And was it wise or just policy to subject this people to the vexatious, and to them, ruinous, operation of a Bill, the principle of which was subversive of the Toleration Act? The noble Lord then spoke in terms of high commendation of the zeal and usefulness of this people, and thought them worthy of encouragement and support, rather than restriction and opposition. He knew that some descriptions of preachers among them asked no exemption from serving in civil offices. If they refusedto serve, their certificate would not protect them. The law on this subject was quite clear, and required no explanation. If a man was a religious teacher, and had no other avocation, in that case he had “a local habitation and a name,” he was a pastor and had a flock, from which it was not the meaning of the Toleration Act that he should be abstracted, in order to serve in civil or military offices. But if all this was not the case, then he could claim no such exemption. If the pressure of the times, and the demand for military service, required that such exemption should be narrowed, then do it by a special Act to that effect, and not by narrowing the Act of Toleration. He had formed this opinion after he had been asked by his noble friend to examine these statutes, before he knew that this Bill was to be opposed by the dissenters, and that he should have to present 250 petitions against it, from the societies in and near London, and the neighbouring counties, of the late Rev. John Wesley. But in a few days there would be an immense number from distant parts of the kingdom. He stated that the person just named, the founder of the sect, or numerous body of christians, whose petitions he with pleasure presented to that House, was a man who he had had the honour to be acquainted with; and had heard expound the word of God; whose labours had not been equalled since the days of the Apostles, for general usefulness to his fellow subjects. A man more pious and devoted, more loyal to his King, or more sincerely attached to his country, had never lived. He also spoke in feeling terms of the eminent character of his own sister (the late Lady Ann Erskine.) The Act was a direct repeal of the most important parts of the Toleration Acts, as they had been uniformly explained for one hundred and twenty years; and he believed that no court and no judges in the country would agree in the construction put on them by the noble Lord. Would they suffer a Bill to pass declaring that to be a law which was not law? It was not only necessary to look into the Toleration Act, but into the intolerant Acts that preceded it, and beat down religious liberty. The noble Lord then went into some of these Acts, and concluded with wishing to God that all of them could be buried in oblivion.
After a variety of other arguments against the Bill, he concluded a long but most eloquent and impressive speech, with moving that the second reading should be postponed to that day six months.
LordHolland, in allusion to the assertion, that the majority of the petitioners probably did not understand the measure against which they petitioned, observed, that the holding such language was singularly unbecoming and offensive. Looking at the immense number who signed the petitions on the table, it was no light libel to stigmatize them with want of understanding on a question that so closely touched their immediate interests. A Right Rev. Prelate (the Archbishop of Canterbury) had said, that the deluge of petitions which overflowed their table, was produced by misapprehension. To follow up the metaphor, it might be said that this deluge was brought down by the flagrant sin of the Bill. Two charges had been casually thrown out against him (Lord Holland:) one, that he pushed the idea of religious liberty to an extent which struck at the Christian religion itself: this he must utterly deny. The other was, that he gave absurd and extravagant praise to the Toleration Act, an Act which had been characterised as abominably intolerant. He would not go into those considerations, but come directly to the Bill. He had before declared his principles, and he saw now no reason to shrink from them. He was an enemy, a most decided, principled, and resolved enemy, to restraints on religious freedom. He was convinced that every man had a natural right to choose his mode of religious teaching, and that no authority had a right to interfere with the choice. A man had as good a right to preach a peculiar doctrine as he had to print it.
In the language of the Right Reverend Prelate, (the Archbishop of Canterbury) the scriptures were a great largess to the world, a mighty and free gift to all mankind; not restrained to the disciples or the discipline of a peculiar church, but given for the benefit of the world. (Hear!) he considered the Toleration Act as the great religious charter; and religious liberty could not subsist unless it was perfect and secure, in the language of Locke, it was equal and impartial, and entireliberty, of which religion and religious men stood in need. The Toleration Act had two parts. One of them was a most generous and liberal concession to the people, and the other was nothing beyond a base and scanty admission of an undoubted right. In one of those parts a crowd of laws were merely done away, which were a shame to the statute book; laws that ought never to have existed. In the other, it was enacted, that on signing certain articles, an immunity from specified inconveniences should be given to dissenting ministers. He was always unwilling that questions of this nature should be stirred. He would not go into the question, but if it pleased the House that the Toleration Act, which had slept for a hundred and fifty years, should be roused once more, he was ready to meet the whole discussion. When the noble Lord (Sidmouth) had given notice of his measures, the House could scarcely have the aspect in which it was afterwards to look upon them. But at every repetition of the notice, something was added. The evil complained of by the noble Lord was more and more seen to be visionary, but the remedy was seen to be more and more violent. One diminished as the other increased. As to the evils which the Bill was to remedy, there was no document before the House to prove that there was any loss of militia service by the privileges of the dissenters. The noble Lord (Sidmouth) had established his opinion on some private letters, on which probably that noble Lord placed much reliance. But were those things to be documents, authorising the House to heap disabilities on the whole immense body of dissenters? The part of the Bill which went to force the dissenting ministers to be moral, after the fashion of the noble Lord, was new, and offensive, and tyrannical. This was the distinct meaning of the noble Lord. He would manufacture the dissenting ministers into precisely such men as he would wish to have preaching to himself; but this was not the species of preacher that the dissenters chose. This attempt of measuring the morality of the dissenting minister by the noble Lord’s private conceptions, was totally opposed to the principles of the Toleration Act, and was calculated to be eminently offensive and vexatious. Whatwas the mode of qualification? They must find six substantial and reputable housekeepers to vouch for their morality. And who were those that were to have the power of bringing forward six such housekeepers to speak to character; or who was to deny the dissenters the right of having humble men for their teachers? Suppose five hundred paupers choose to hear religion from a man of their own choosing and of their own class; was it to be said, that the desire was beyond what might be permitted? and yet where was this teacher to find his six substantial and reputable housekeeping vouchers? Or was the argument to be persisted in by those men who were ready to boast of their attachment to religion, and to acknowledge, as one of its glories, that it had risen by the labours of humble men, not merely without dependence on, but in opposition to the wealth, and influence, and power, of the great of this world? Yet it was not enough for the Bill that the dissenting minister should be devout and learned, but that he should be proved so to his congregation. How? by the signature of six substantial and reputable housekeepers? Was his ordeal to end here? No; the judgment of the six housekeepers was to be revised by a country justice, before the dissenting congregation could be secure of the teacher whom they had originally chosen for his fitness. The article on probationers was unjust and absurd. When a vacancy occurred in the dissenting pulpit, a number of candidates usually appeared, who were to give evidence of their qualities, by preaching, before they had or could have obtained an appointment. By the operation of the article now alluded to, those young men would be subjected to the horrid penalties of the Conventicle Act. If this Bill were to pass, they would find 50,000 Methodist teachers applying immediately for licences, for fear of persecution. But though the regular Methodist teachers might not have any thing to fear from a prosecution of that nature, since the wise statute of Anne, yet if this Bill passed, the whole important body of the itinerants would be exposed to peculiar hazards. The noble Lord (Sidmouth) had spoken of having had the approbation of many respectable dissenters on the Bill; but he (Lord Holland) hadconversed with many on the subject, and he had not found one who did not decidedly disapprove of it entire. The Bill was completely at variance with the original idea thrown out to the House, as he understood it; and he could not doubt that it was at variance with all that he had ever learned to revere as the genuine principles of religious liberty. (Hear! Hear!)
LordStanhopesaid, he did not now rise to oppose the Bill, because it had already got its death blow. He hoped, however, it would be followed up by a measure of a very different nature, (alluding to the repeal of the Conventicle Act). He had never felt more pleasure in his whole parliamentary life, than he had done on this very day; and if any one asked him the reason, he would tell them, it was at the immense heap of petitions that was then strewed upon their floor, and piled upon their table, and all against this most wretched Bill. He liked this, because a kind of silly talk had been going abroad that there was no public. He had always thought otherwise. He had heard it said, that such was the public feeling, that they would not, at the present moment, be affected by any thing which could possibly happen. The petitions now on their Lordship’s table, however, completely gave the lie to this allegation. The event had shewn that there was still a public opinion in this country, and that, when called into action, it could manifest itself speedily, and with effect. He was happy this had occurred. He had never doubted that there was still such a thing as public opinion; and hoped those noble Lords who had hitherto doubted the fact, would now be convinced of their error. And he saw to-day that there was a public, and a public opinion, and a public spirit. He saw it in the multitude of petitions sent up on so short a notice; and he was rejoiced to find it alive, active, and energetic. He would not talk of the Bill; that was dead and gone; and it would be beneath a man of sense to quarrel with the carcase. (A laugh!) The Bill was declaratory as well as active, and it was illegal as well as either. He defied all the Lawyers in the House, and out of the House to prove that this wretched and unfortunate Bill was not illegal.(Hear!)(Hear!)He would not condescend to argue every point. It was unnecessary to argue upon what was beyond human help. It was all over with the Bill; its hour was come; the Bill was dead and gone, but he must say something on the subject, however. The noble Lord (Sidmouth) had declared the Conventicle Act to be abominable. He (Lord Stanhope) was one of those who detested that Act which they called the Toleration Act, and for this reason, because it did not go far enough. He hated the name of the Toleration Act. He hated the word Toleration. It was a beggarly, narrow, worthless word; it did not go far enough. He hated toleration, because he loved liberty. (Hear!) There was not a man in that House—not one among the law Lords—not one, perhaps, among the Bishops themselves, that had read so many of our religious statutes as he had; and disgusting, and foolish, and wicked, the most of them were. He had gone through them with a professional man by his side, and with his pen had abstracted and marked off 300 laws about religion from the Statute Book; and he ventured to assert, that they were of such a nature as would make their Lordships disgusted with the Statute Book, and ashamed of their ancestors, who could have enacted them. There was but one good statute that he saw, and that was a model for statutes: it was the wisest on religion that he had ever seen. It was a statute of Edward VI. who might fairly be said to be the first protestant Prince who had ever reigned in this country, for King Henry the eighth, that defender of the faith, could hardly be said to be a real protestant. This statute of Edward VI. abolished the whole set of religious statutes before it. Yes, shoveled them away all at once; it was the best of statutes. (laughing!) For what need had religion of Acts of Parliament? Was not religion capable of standing by itself? (Hear! hear!from Lord Sidmouth.) The noble Lord might say,hear! hear!but was it not true? If the noble Lord did not believe it, he (Lord Stanhope) at least did. Was not America religious? Yet there, there was no established religion—there, there were no tythes. In one particular state, that of Connecticut, he was informed there was a law, that if anyman voluntarily gave a bond to aclergymanclergyman, no suit upon it could be entertained in a court of justice. And for a good reason, because it being the duty of the clergyman to instruct his flock, and to make them good and honest men, if he succeeded in doing so, no such suit would have been necessary: on the other hand, having failed to perform his duty, he could have no right to be rewarded. Oh! if the establishment in this country were never to be paid till they made the people honest, many of them, he was afraid, would go without any reward whatever. All, then, must have a right to choose for themselves in matters of religion and this was not the first time he thought so.
To toleration, as it now existed in this country, he was, as he already said, a decided enemy; but to religious liberty he was a most decided friend, convinced that no restraint should be put on religion, unless in so far as it might seem to endanger the state.
EarlGreysaid, though he perceived that his noble friend (Sidmouth) did not mean to press this Bill farther, yet, he could not allow the question to be put without declaring his unchangeable objection both to the details and to the principle of the Bill, to which no modifications could ever reconcile him. The principle of the Bill was restraint—restraint vexatious and uncalled for. That it was a Bill of restraint, even his noble friend (Sidmouth) himself had not denied, or attempted to disguise. He (Earl Grey) was against all restraint. He went along with his noble friend (Lord Holland) in thinking that every man who was impressed with a belief that he had a call to preach, ought to have every liberty allowed him to do so. One inconvenience stated to result from this unlimited liberty had been said to be of a purely civil nature, inasmuch as it afforded facilities to men not actually preachers, but who pretended to be so, to avail themselves of that character, to escape certain obligations imposed on the other subjects of the country, such as serving in the militia, &c. Judging from the papers on the table, he could not see the force or justice of this observation. For the last forty years the number of persons licensedappeared to have been about 11,000. He should take, however, the last twelve years. Dividing them into two equal parts, it appeared that, in the six former years, the number licensed was 1,100, and, in the latter six years, 900, so that the number had diminished, instead of increasing, and the present measure, instead of being thereby more peculiarly called for, had become so much the less necessary.
LordSidmouthbriefly replied. He took some objection to the legal reasoning on his Bill, and professed himself not dismayed, by the opposition which it met, from bringing forward any future measures on the subject, which he thought suggested by his duty.
The question was then put by the Lord Chancellor, “that the Bill be read a second time this day six months,” and carried without a division: it was therefore entirely lost.
LordSidmouth’sBill being thus lost, and the subject of Toleration having been so fully discussed, and so ably defended in the House of Lords, it was rational to hope that the cause of religious liberty would now be triumphant; that persecutors would be ashamed and hide their heads; that the pious people of the land would enjoy their privileges unmolested; that every man would be permitted to worship God according to the dictates of his conscience, and “sit under his vine and fig-tree, none daring to make him afraid.” But alas! this hope was fallacious; the spirit of persecution revived, a new construction was put upon the Toleration Act, and “the enemies of religious liberty exerted themselves to effect that without law, which they failed to accomplish by it.” Several magistrates in different parts of the kingdom, at the Quarter Sessions of the peace, refused to administer the oaths as formerly, to the ministers who applied, and in some cases they were treated with rudeness and contempt!
The Conventicle Act was again brought into use, and several persons were fined, or imprisoned, for preaching without licences, or in unlicenced houses, and in one instance, forprayingwith a few poor people: this religious exercise, by a certainNobleman, who was chairman of the Quarter Sessions, was construed inteaching, and the man was fined accordingly! This extraordinary decision, however, was overruled by an application to the Court of King’s Bench, and the fine returned.
Dreadful outrages were committed in various parts of the country, and the lives and liberties of his Majesty’s peaceable and loyal subjects were threatened and endangered.
These circumstances greatly alarmed the nation, and more especially as several cases had been brought before the Court of King’s Bench, and the decisions of the Judges appeared to be contrary to former interpretations of the Toleration Act. Matters now began to wear a very alarming aspect, and it was apprehended that the persecuting spirit of former ages was about to be revived. The Toleration Act, under which the Methodists and Dissenters had been so long protected, it was now discovered, could no longer afford them protection. This state of things excited universal interest; the minds of the pious people in the land, both in and out of the established Church, were greatly agitated; and it was deemed highly expedient, yea absolutely necessary, that some decisive steps should be immediately taken, for the better security of the invaluable rights of Conscience and Religion.
The Committees of the different denominations of Dissenters, of the friends of Religious Liberty, and of Mr. Wesley’s Societies, as mentioned before, were again convened; and after the most mature deliberation, it was unanimously determined respectfully to submit their grievances to his Majesty’s Ministers, and to pray for redress. This they did, first to the late Right Honourable Spencer Perceval, Chancellor of the Exchequer, who approved of the plan proposed for their relief, and promised them support; as will appear from the following authentic copy of a letter, dated Downing-street, April 10th, 1812, and addressed to Joseph Butterworth, Esq. Fleet-street.