Q.Had you any particular meeting on that day?
A.No, nothing particular, only I was smoking a pipe with Mr. Marsh.
Q.At one o'clock?
A.Yes, a little after one, it was between one and two o'clock I stopped there after two o'clock, I stopped some considerable time after the gentleman was gone away.
Q.He was not there above a quarter of an hour, or twenty minutes, was he?
A.I cannot tell, it might be a quarter of an hour or it might not.
Q.He was in a great hurry to get off, and went off as soon as the horses were ready?
A.He did.
Q.Had you dined at the Packet Boat, or at the Ship on that day?
A.No, I had not.
Q.Have you seen that gentleman from that time till to-day?
A.No, not from the time I saw him at Dover till to-day.
Q.Have you not been at London to be examined?
A.No.
Q.You have heard a great deal about this transaction?
A.Yes, it has been in every body's mouth.
Q.I take for granted you talk about these things as we do in London?
A.Yes we do.
Q.And read the newspapers that have been full of this thing for a long time?
A.I frequently read the newspapers.
Re-examined by Mr. Bolland.
Q.How long had you an opportunity of observing him?
A.Perhaps I might be in the room three or four minutes.
Q.During that time, was your attention called to him?
A.Yes, on account of the glorious news he said he had brought.
Q.It was a welcome face at Dover?
A.Yes, it was indeed, and that made me take more notice than I should have done.
A Juryman.Had he a cap on all the time you saw him?
A.No, he had not.
Mr. Park.It was only three or four minutes altogether?
A.I beg your pardon; I did not say it was only three or four minutes, I was asked whether it was three or four minutes, and I said I had no doubt it was.
A Juryman.Are you sure that is the man?
A.That is the gentleman that I saw there.
Lord Ellenborough.You have no doubt whatever?
A.No, I have none in the least.
Eliott Edis sworn.Examined by Mr. Bolland.
Q.You are a cooper in the victualling yard at Dover, are you not?
A.Yes.
Q.Were you, on the morning of the 21st of February, at the Packet Boat?
A.Yes, I was.
Q.Was Mr. Gourley there with you?
A.Yes.
Q.Was your attention called to any thing particular on that morning?
A.Yes, a messenger arrived.
Q.Did you see the messenger?
A.Yes.
Q.Where did you first see him?
A.At the Ship.
Q.Was he in a room, or in the passage of the Ship, at the time?
A.In a room.
Q.At the time you first saw him, how was he occupied, what was he doing?
A.He was walking up and down the room.
Q.Did you make any observation on his dress?
A.He had a grey coat—his great coat.
Q.Did you observe the other coat that he had on?
A.He had regimentals; scarlet, trimmed with gold.
Q.Had they any other ornament on them?
A.I did not particularly take notice.
Q.Do you recollect how his head was dressed?
A.A cap, with a gold band about it.
Q.Will you look at that coat which lies there?
A.That is the color of it.
Q.How was the cap made?
A.A slouch cap.
Q.Where was the band?
A.Round it.
Q.Of what did the cap appear to be made?
A.It appeared to be made of a kind of rough beaver; I do not know whether it was black or brown.
Q.It had the appearance of rough beaver?
A.Yes.
Mr. Bolland.Will you now shew him the cap?
Mr. Park.I think it should be more described before it is shewn to him; this is a totally different description; this may be very material.
Mr. Bolland.Then I will not shew him the cap at all.—Had the cap any flap to it?
A.Rather a flap round, as I thought—all round.
Q.I ask you, whether the cap was cut off without any rim to it, or had it a rim like a hat?
A.No, it had not a rim like a hat by any means.
Q.Had you any conversation with him?
A.No.
Q.You say that at first he was walking about the room?
A.Yes.
Q.Did he employ himself in any other way while you were there?
A.I saw him before I went away sit down to write.
Q.Did you hear him order a pen, ink, and paper?
A.No, I did not.
Q.Did he, in your presence, say any thing as to whom he was writing to?
A.No, I could hear him talk, but not to understand him.
Q.That was owing to your deafness?
A.Yes.
Q.Did he keep his cap on the whole time you were there, or did he take it off?
A.His cap was on while I was there.
Q.From the observation you made upon his person, can you point out who that person was whom you saw on that night; have you seen him? look round and see whether you see him here to-day.
(The witness looked round the Court for some time.)
A.That is the gentleman (pointing to De Berenger.)
Q.Have you any doubt upon your mind about it.
A.No.
Cross-examined by Mr. Park.
Q.Had you ever seen him before that night?
A.No.
Q.Have you ever seen him since?
A.No.
Q.How long did you see him?
A.I did not minute the time.
Q.Upon the whole, how many minutes do you think you can now say you saw him that night?
A.I might see him perhaps five or six minutes, or more. I was in the room twice.
Q.Were you there before Mr. Gourley, or after him?
A.I was in the room with him.
Q.Did you go over before Mr. Gourley, or after him?
A.After him—I followed him.
Q.Immediately?
A.Yes.
Q.Did you come away as soon as he did, or did you remain there after him?
A.I did not take particular notice of that; the door was open, and we went in and out as we liked.
Q.Will you tell us whether the word you used before was, that he had a flat cap, or a flap cap—had it not a flap to it?
A.It was a cap rather slouched down, no brim to it.
Q.How could it slouch down, if it had no brim to it? I do not understand that; if it had merely a crown to it that would go round the head, it would not slouch down.
A.It was drawn over his forehead.
Q.The round part of it was drawn down over his forehead?
A.Yes.
Q.Where have you been all the time that gentleman has been speaking?
A.What gentleman?
Q.Were you out of Court?
A.No, I was not out of Court.
Q.You have been behind?
A.Yes.
Q.Have you been in view of his Lordship all the time?
A.No.
Q.When did you come into Court; did you come in when Mr. Gourley was examining, or when Marsh, the former witness, was examining?
A.No, I was out of Court at that time.
Q.Had you left the Ship Inn before this gentleman, as you say it was, had left the Ship Inn and gone back to the Packet Boat?
A.No, I saw him start off.
Re-examined by Mr. Bolland.
Q.Did you come into Court before you were called?
A.No.
Mr. Park.No, I give that up.
Lord Ellenborough.A deaf man is rather an awkward man to be an eaves dropper.
Mr. Park.I could not put so silly a question as that.
Lord Ellenborough.He is the very last man that one should suspect; he could not hear if he was in Court.
Mr. Park.If he had been as deaf as deaf could be, if he had seen a person point at the Defendant, that would have been sufficient for his purpose.
Lord Ellenborough.But you saw how he searched round the Court before he found him.
Mr. Park.But when I have a case presented to me I must do my duty, however painful it may be.
Lord Ellenborough.Certainly, it is my wish you should.
The Cap was shewn to the witness.
Mr. Bolland.Was the cap like that?
A.It was in the same form as that.
Q.Was the lace like that?
A.It was like that; I cannot say that was the cap.
Mr. William St. John sworn.Examined by Mr. Bolland.
Q.Where do you reside?
A.In Little Brook street.
Q.Were you at the Ship Inn at Dover, on the morning of the 21st of February?
A.I was.
Q.You were there as a guest—as a traveller?
A.I was.
Q.Was your attention called to any thing on that morning?
A.Yes, it was.
Q.Were you up in the morning, or had you retired to rest?
A.I had retired to rest.
Q.State to the Court what it was which excited your attention.
A.I think at a quarter past one, or somewhere thereabouts, I heard a violent knocking at the gate or door, and a person calling out for a post-chaise and four immediately. I got up and dressed myself as quickly as possible, and went down stairs. I met Mr. Wright, the landlord, and asked him——
Q.Do not state any thing that passed between you and Wright, unless the stranger was there.
A.I went into the coffee-room, I think it is called.
Q.Did you observe any body there?
A.I saw a gentleman in a military uniform.
Q.Will you state, if you recollect it, what his dress was?
A.He wore a scarlet coat, with long skirts, buttoned across, with a red silk sash, grey pantaloons, and a grey military great coat, and a seal-skin cap, I think it was a seal-skin cap, on his head, of a fawn colour.
Lord Ellenborough.You did not touch it to feel it, did you?
A.No; it had a gold band round it.
Mr. Bolland.Had he any ornament on his uniform?
A.There were some ornaments but I do not know what they were, something of a star on his military dress.
Q.How was he engaged at the time you first saw him?
A.He was walking up and down the room in a very good pace.
Q.Did any thing pass between you and him?
A.I asked a question.
Q.What question did you ask him?
A.I asked him about the arrival of a messenger, and he said, he knew nothing at all about it.
Q.What were the terms in which you asked him?
A.I asked him if he knew any thing of the arrival of Mr. Johnson, who was the Messenger expected.—He said, he knew nothing at all about him, and begged I would leave him to himself, as he was extremely ill. On my leaving the room, he requested that I would send in paper and pen and ink. I immediately retired, and met the landlord, Mr. Wright, coming into the room, I believe with the paper, pens and ink.
Q.Did you return into the room?
A.In a few minutes, I believe a few seconds afterwards, I did.
Q.How was he then occupied?
A.He was writing.
Q.Did he say any thing of what he was writing?
A.No.
Q.Did you afterwards hear him say any thing, or see him do any thing with the paper upon which he was writing?
A.No, I did not.
Q.Did you hear him say any thing to Mr. Wright?
A.No, I did not,—not in the room.
Q.Did you continue in the room during the whole time he was writing, or leave it?
A.I left it immediately.
Q.Did you again see him, and where?
A.At the door in the street, stepping into the carriage.
Q.Did you hear him say any thing there, or see him do any thing?
A.I asked him what the news was,—he told me it was as good as I could possibly wish.
Q.Did any thing more pass between you and him?
A.Nothing more.
Q.Did you see what he did with the paper upon which he was writing?
A.No, I did not.
Q.Did you hear any thing pass between him and any other persons?
A.No, I did not.
Q.Did you leave the place or did he go away first?
A.He went away first.
Q.Did any thing pass from that stranger or to him respecting the letter.
A.No, not that I heard.
Q.From the observation that you made upon that person, could you point him out?
A.Certainly.
Q.Look round the Court, and see whether he is here?
A.The gentleman is below me, (pointing to De Berenger,) this Gentlemen, who is writing here.
Q.Have you any doubt of it?
A.Not in the least.
Q.Had you seen him before that day?
A.This is the third time I ever saw him.—I saw him by accident in Westminster Hall, passing through the Hall.
Lord Ellenborough.Did you recollect him when you saw him there?
A.Immediately.
Mr. Bolland.By what accident was it that you saw him there?
A.I went down there.
Q.And there by chance saw him?
A.Yes.
Q.Were you desired by any body to go down?
A.A friend of mine asked me to go down. The fact is we were going to Newgate; having heard that he was gone to Westminster Hall, I went down there.
Q.Was he walking about the Hall, or where was he when you saw him?
A.I first saw him in the court.
Q.Was he alone, or were there other persons about him?
A.There were many persons about him.
Q.You have no doubt of the person?
A.I have no doubt.
Q.You recollect nothing of any letter?
A.No, I do not.
Cross examined by Mr. Richardson.
Q.You told my learned friend you had seen this person three times;—once at Dover, and to day, and another time; by accident that was so—was it?
A.It was.
Q.Did you go to Newgate by accident?
A.No, I did not, I went there accompanied by a friend to see him; it was mere by chance that I went down to Westminster Hall.
Q.Do you call that an accident in your vocabulary?
A.I had no intention of going there ten minutes before.
Q.You did not go with your friend for the purpose of looking at him?
A.I went alone, I went with a friend to Newgate.
Q.You did not go to Westminster Hall for the purpose of looking at him?
A.I did.
Q.Do you call that an accident?
A.No.
Q.Did you not follow him to Westminster Hall for the purpose of looking at him?
A.Yes.
Q.Who was the friend who went with you to Newgate?
A.Mr. Oakes of the Stock Exchange.
Q.That was the day you knew he was to come to Westminster Hall for the purpose of pleading to this indictment?
A.I did not know any such thing.
Q.Were not you so informed when you got to Newgate?
A.I was.
Q.And then you followed him to Westminster Hall, and saw him pleading to this indictment?
A.I saw him in Westminster Hall.
Q.Did you not hear the officer read the indictment to him?
A.I was not in the Court, I think I just had my head in the inside of the curtain.
Q.Did you not hear the officer read something to him, and ask him whether he was guilty or not guilty?
A.I heard the Officer read something.
Q.And ask De Berenger whether he was guilty or not?
A.I heard him ask some question, but not what it was.
Q.That person was standing up in Court, under the Officer?
A.He was.
Q.You were not resident at Dover, I think?
A.No, I was not.
Q.What is your business in London?
A.I have a situation in a public charity.
Q.What is that?
A.The Irish Charitable Society.
Q.Are you Secretary to that?
A.No, Accountant.
Q.Is that your only line of business?
A.Yes.
Q.Have you nothing to do with the Stock Exchange?
A.No.
Q.You never had?
A.I do not understand that question.
Q.Have you ever had any thing to do with the Stock Exchange?
A.I have had some transactions in the Stocks.
Q.Have you ever acted as a Broker?
A.No, never.
Q.Your transactions in the Stocks have been entirely on your own account?
A.Yes.
Q.Buying and selling Stock upon your own account?
A.The fact is, I held some Omnium.
Q.And sold it again?
A.Yes.
Q.About what time?
A.I bought it before that time.
Q.When was it sold?
A.Some days after this transaction.
Q.You were in this room twice, I think you said?
A.Yes.
Q.When you first went down, you did not find your company acceptable?
A.The gentleman begged I would leave him, and I did so.
Q.Upon your oath, how long were you in the room at that time?
A.Not more than a minute.
Q.It might be less; you went immediately on his requesting you?
A.Yes, as soon as possible.
Q.The second time, you stated to my learned friend, you left the room immediately after you went in,—how long were you then?
A.I suppose a minute; I went up to the table and back again.
Q.You did not see him do any thing, but write a letter?
A.No.
Q.Had he his great coat and cap on, all the time you were with him?
A.Yes, I did not see him without them.
Q.It was a slouch cap we have heard it described?
A.No, it was not; it was a cap without any leaf at all to it.
Q.Coming over the forehead?
A.No, it fitted the head tight, but had neither a leaf or any thing else to it.
Q.What might be your business at Dover at that time?
A.I went down for the purpose of getting information.
Q.Was that for the benefit of the Irish Charitable Society?
A.No, certainly not.
Q.If it is not impertinent, for whose benefit was it?
A.One purpose was to send information to a newspaper.
Q.Another purpose, to send information to whom?
A.If any thing happened, such as the arrival of the preliminaries of a treaty of peace, which was expected, I should have come to London immediately.
Q.You would have gone to the Stock Exchange with it?
A.No, I should not, I have no connexion with the Stock Exchange.
Q.Upon your oath, you would not have communicated it to the Stock Exchange?
A.I should not.
Q.It was by Mr. Oakes's desire, you say, that you went to Newgate,—was it by his desire you went to Dover?
A.It was not.
Q.Did he know of your going to Dover?
A.He did not.
Q.By whose desire did you go down?
A.By desire of a friend of a mine.
Q.Who was that person?
A.He was a friend of mine.
Q.What was his name?
Lord Ellenborough.There is no objection to your telling it.
Mr. Richardson.Have you any doubt of it in your memory?
A.No.
Q.At whose desire did you go down?
A.Mr. Farrell.
Q.Who is Mr. Farrell?
A.He is a Merchant.
Q.A Merchant in the City of London?
A.Yes he is.
Q.Has he any thing to do with the newspaper you have spoken of?
A.Yes he has, he is a proprietor of it.
Q.What is the name of it?
A.The Traveller.
Q.Where does Mr. Farrell live?
A.In Austin Friars.
Q.What day did you go to Dover?
A.I went on the Saturday.
Q.That was the very day before?
A.Yes.
Q.For the purpose of getting any intelligence that might arrive and to communicate it immediately to Mr. Farrell?
A.Yes, or Mr. Quin, the other proprietor of the newspaper.
Q.You told me just now, your object was to get information, partly for the newspaper;—what was the other object?
A.I do not recollect having said partly.
Q.I am in the recollection of the gentlemen of the Jury, whether you did not say so.
A Juryman.You said one object was that.
Mr. Richardson.What other object had you?
A.That was the only distinct object I had.
Q.Then you meant that you had no other object but that?
A.If there had been a preliminary Treaty of Peace arrived, I should have returned to London, and of course I would have made what I possibly could of the little Omnium I held.
Q.That was the other object?
A.Yes.
Q.All information of slighter importance you would have communicated to Mr. Farrell, who sent you; if it had been very important, you would have come to London and sold your omnium?
A.Certainly.
Re-examined by Mr. Bolland.
Q.At the time you saw that person in Westminster Hall, I think you told me he was standing with a number of others?
A.He was.
Q.Did any person point out that person to you?
A.No.
Q.Was it from the recollection of your own mind, that you discovered him?
A.It was.
Q.Do you know a boy of the name of Ions?
A.No. I do not know him by name.
William Ions was called into Court.
Mr. Bolland (to St. John.)Do you know that boy?
A.Yes.
Q.He is one of Wright's boys?
A.He is.
Q.Did you see him on that night.
A.I did.
Q.Upon what occasion?
A.He was sent as an express, there were two expresses that night, he went with one of them.
Q.To whom was that lad sent?
A.I think to the Port Admiral at Deal.
Q.Whose express was that?
A.It was an express I believe that Mr. Wright gave him from the gentleman who was there.
Q.Do you mean from that gentleman?
A.Yes.
William Ions sworn.Examined by Mr. Gurney.
Q.In the month of February last were you in the service of Mr. Wright of Dover.
A.Yes.
Q.Were you up when the officer arrived there, or were you called up?
A.I was called up.
Q.Were you sent off with an express to Admiral Foley?
A.Yes.
Q.Did you take to the Admiral's the letter you received there?
A.Yes, I did.
Cross-examined by Mr. Richardson.
Q.Who gave you the letter that you speak of?
A.Mr. Wright.
Q.He gave you some letters to carry to Admiral Foley?
A.Yes.
Q.Where did he give it you?
A.I was at the fore-door upon the pony, and he came out to the door to me with the letter.
Q.To whom did you deliver it?
A.To the Admiral's Servant.
Q.At Deal?
A.Yes.
Q.What is her name?
A.I do not know, she took it up stairs to the Admiral directly?
Q.You did not see the Admiral?
A.I saw him that night.
Q.Do you mean before you left Deal?
A.Yes.
Q.This letter you delivered to some servant at the door?
A.Yes.
Q.And she carried it up stairs?
A.Yes.
Re-examined by Mr. Gurney.
Q.After she had delivered it up stairs you saw the Admiral?
A.Yes.
Admiral Thomas Foley sworn.Examined by Mr. Gurney.
Q.On the morning of Monday the 21st of February did you receive a letter by that boy?
A.A letter was brought to me that that boy brought to the house, and given to me, I was in bed.
Mr. Park.You did not receive it from the hand of that boy?
A.No, it was brought to me by my maid-servant at three o'clock in the morning, I was in bed.
Q.Did you get up immediately?
A.I read the letter in bed.
Q.Is that the letter? (shewing a letter to the witness.)
A.This is the letter.
Q.Did you mark it before you parted with it?
A.I do not know whether I marked it or not.
Q.You know it again.
A.I inclosed it in a letter but I did not mark it.
Q.You inclosed it in a letter to Mr. Croker?
A.Yes a private letter to Mr. Croker.
Q.Is that the letter in which you inclosed it to Mr. Croker (shewing a letter to the witness.)
A.This is the letter.
Q.That letter which I first shewed you is the letter you received from your maid servant?
A.It is.
Q.I suppose you rose directly?
A.I rose and sent for the boy into my dressing room.
Q.Did you communicate the news by telegraph to the admiralty that morning.
A.It was very late before I began, I will tell you what I did, I questioned the boy a good deal, for I must say I did not believe the letter.
Q.I must not ask you what passed between you and the boy, but whether you telegraphed the admiralty?
A.I did not, because the weather was thick, and I further say, the message I should have sent to the admiralty would have satisfied them—
Q.In fact you did not telegraph the admiralty because the weather was too thick?
A.I did not.
Q.When you sent for the boy up had you the letter in your hand?
A.I had, it was then three o'clock and dark, the telegraph would not move.
Q.I take for granted you had a candle?
A.Of course.
Mr. Gurney.We will now read the letter.
Mr. Park.I object, with great deference to his Lordship, to that letter being read, the evidence does not bring home that to the supposed officer, who is said to be Mr. De Berenger, it does not appear from any evidence to have come out of his hand it reaches this boy by the communication of Mr. Wright, who has not been called.
Mr. Gurney.I will ask the witness as to the reason of Mr. Wright's not being here—he is very ill, is not he?
A.He is extremely ill.
Mr. Park.My Lord, that does not alter the law of evidence, I submit there is a chasm in that chain that precludes their reading the letter as evidence against Mr. De Berenger. I do not mean to say that might not be supplied in the absence of Mr. Wright, but that letter lying before your Lordship's Officer is not identified to be the very paper which issued forth from this supposed person. It was delivered to this youth at the door of the inn by Wright, who is ill and absent from illness, he is not present to tell your Lordship from whom he received that, and there is a chasm in the chain of evidence, nor does the Admiral say he received the letter from this boy, he received it from a maid servant.
Lord Ellenborough (to Admiral Foley.)When the boy came into your presence I suppose you asked him about this letter?
A.I did.
Q.Did he recognize that as the letter he had brought?
A.He did.
Mr. Park.With deference to your Lordship I should submit the letter was then open, the boy had delivered the letter shut to the maid servant, and I should have submitted, it is quite impossible that this youth could distinguish the letter, nobody doubts it is the letter, but that must be proved by legal evidence.
Lord Ellenborough.It is prima facie evidence. I do not speak now of the communication from De Berenger(supposing he is the person) of the letter to the boy. I do not say any thing upon that objection of yours, but that the letter which reached Admiral Foley was the letter the boy brought I think no human being can doubt.
Mr. Park.But still upon the original point, I submit it is not so proved as to be read in evidence.
Lord Ellenborough.Yes, you may resort to that if you please, the witness said he wanted an express horse to send to the Admiral at Deal, and then an express horse was got, and something was carried to the Admiral at Deal. That is the evidence as it stands.
Mr. Serjeant Best.So far the evidence goes my Lord, they now want to make the contents of that letter evidence, but before they can do that they must either prove that letter to be the hand-writing of Mr. De Berenger, or trace that Letter regularly from the hand of Mr. De Berenger: they have no such evidence, but all they say is, that Wright, the Landlord of the inn, took the letter out of the inn and delivered it to the boy at the door, the boy never having seen Mr. De Berenger, nor they having the smallest evidence whatever to connect the boy with him.
Lord Ellenborough.If there had been, the question would not have arisen.
Mr. Serjeant Best.I submit there is nothing to connect that letter with this person, and if it is the hand-writing of Mr. De Berenger I should think they would have no difficulty in proving that, there were other gentlemen waiting for information from France, as we hear from the witnesses, and if this letter is read Mr. De Berenger and the other Defendants may be made responsible for that letter which may have been written by one of those other persons.
Lord Ellenborough.I only want to get first all the facts relating to this letter. I cannot find any thing beyond that that he wanted an express horse to send to the Admiral at Deal.
Mr. Gurney.And that a sheet of paper was brought to him to write.
Lord Ellenborough.That he was preparing to write a letter and that he wanted an express horse to carry it, but as to the immediate identification of that letter you lose the intervening proof by the absence of Mr. Wright.
Mr. Gurney.My Lord, if there is any sort of difficulty about it, I will identify it at once by proving the hand-writing, but the Gentleman to prove that felt a delicacy in consequence of his being the Attorney for the prosecution.
Germain Lavie, Esq. sworn.Examined by Mr. Gurney.
Q.You are the Attorney for the prosecution?
A.Yes.
Q.Did you see Mr. De Berenger in the custody of the messenger, in the course of the month of April?
A.Several times.
Q.In the course of those interviews did you see him write?
A.I did.
Q.Did you see him write a good deal?
A.Yes, a considerable deal, I saw a whole letter which he handed me across when he had written it, and it was given back and copied again, and for about an hour he was writing different things and handing backwards and forwards.
Q.Did you also see his papers in his writing desk?
A.I did.
Q.From the observation you made upon his writing, seeing him writing as you did at those several interviews, do you or do you not believe that to be his hand-writing?
A.I verily believe it to be his hand-writing from what I saw him write, but I am more impressed with its being his hand-writing, or at least the impression of its being his hand-writing is strengthened by what I saw of his writing.
Q.Do you believe, from what you saw him write, that that is his hand-writing.
A.Yes I do most solemnly, I did not see the letter till afterwards, and the moment I saw it, I concluded that to be his hand writing, and said so at the time.
Mr. Park.What you said at the time is no evidence, and you know that.
Mr. Gurney.Did your observation of it enable you to say you believed it to be his hand writing?
A.I have said so.
Mr. Park.You know as well as any man, that what you said to any body is no evidence.
Lord Ellenborough.It is a measure strongly indicative of his persuasion, it is an act accompanying his seeing it.
Mr. Gurney.Does Mr. De Berenger always write as large as that, or does he write a hand as large as that, and a smaller one also?
A.His usual hand is a good deal smaller than this.
Q.Did you find him sometimes writing larger than at other times?
A.Yes, there was apparently in his letters a larger hand in writing, I could positively swear that the man who wrote those I saw, wrote this, only one was larger than the other.
Cross examined by Mr. Park.
Q.You told my learned Friend just now, that you formed your mind not only from what you saw him write, but from what you saw in his writing desk?
A.That confirmed my mind.
Q.Upon your oath, if you had not seen those writings in his Desk, would you have taken upon yourself to swear that it was his hand writing?
A.I think I should, but that makes it much stronger in my mind.
Q.I ask you again and will have a positive answer to the question, if you had never seen those other writings to which you have alluded, would you upon the mere circumstance ofhaving seen him write, have taken upon you to swear that you believed that to be his hand writing?
A.I could have sworn it not quite so strongly, I could have sworn to my verily believing it, but I can now swear without the least doubt that it is his.
Q.That is because I have examined you perhaps?
A.No it is not.
Q.You verily believe that to be his writing, do you?
A.Yes.
Q.Look at that and tell me whether you believe that to be his hand writing, (shewing a letter to the witness) you need not open it, I have shut it for the purpose.
A.Yes I do, that is more like what I saw him write than this; I believe that to be his hand writing.
Mr. Park.I will put a letter A upon it; will you be so good as to look at that account, (shewing it to the witness) and tell me whether you believe that to be his hand writing.
A.I can only say this is the sort of hand he writes.
Q.Will you swear that is his hand writing.
A.That appears to me to be the same sort of hand.
Mr. Park.I will mark this B. They are very much alike.
A.They are more like the sized hand he writes in common than this, this is a larger hand.
Mr. Serjeant Best.Do you believe these to be Mr. De Berenger's hand writing? (shewing three papers to the witness).
A.They are all like his hand writing.
Lord Ellenborough.I think this should be kept for your case—I never saw any thing like this in my life.
Mr. Gurney.I take for granted these are meant to be produced in the defence?
Lord Ellenborough.You must be conscious that you are doing an irregular thing in tendering them now.
Mr. Park.I am not conscious my Lord, of doing an irregular thing.
Lord Ellenborough.I mean in tendering evidence at a time when it is not open to the Defendant to do so.
Mr. Park.But I may try the credit of the Witness by shewing him these.
Lord Ellenborough.There is no doubt that every Defendant has a right to give evidence in his turn, but at present we are upon the case of the prosecution.
Mr. Park.Have you not shewn that Letter to various other persons in order to procure their testimony to the hand writing?
A.No, I have not.
Q.You have not attempted it?
A.I was always conscious that I should be able to prove the Letter, but this morning finding Mr. Wright was not come up, I asked them if they had any body at hand that could prove it, so as to avoid being called myself; but I believe I must be called at last to the examination of the papers, so that it is not so important my being called sooner or later.
Q.Have you attempted to get other evidence?
A.I have not.
Q.Was Mr. Stevens applied to?
A.Before the Grand Jury, Mr. Stevens was not only applied to, but attended.—Mr. Lees also, of the Bank of England had ascertained before I had any thing to do with the business——
Mr. Park.That is not my question.
Lord Ellenborough.Put your question distinctly.
Mr. Park.I ask whether Mr. Lavie had not applied to various persons to swear to De Berenger's hand writing, and finding that they would not swear to it, then he determined to swear to it himself?
A.No, I have not.
Mr. Gurney.You say you did apply to Mr. Lees of the Bank, and Mr. Stevens?
A.Yes.
Q.Mr. Lees is the Inspector at the Bank?
A.He is.
The Letter was read as follows: