Gentlemen, I cannot but be struck at the singularity of Mr. M'Rae's withdrawing from the field of battle. M'Rae certainly has performed a very singular part upon this occasion; he proposed to sell himself for £.10,000; he would have had the Stock Exchange to believe, that he had been let into the secrets of my Lord Cochrane, Mr. Cochrane Johnstone, Mr. Butt, and Mr. De Berenger;—the first object he had in view, was to persuade the Stock Exchange that he knew the whole of their concern in the transaction. A pleasant sort of a gentleman, to ask the sum of £.10,000, to induce him to tell all that he knew, when no human being can doubt that all M'Rae knew was, that which has been proved by the witnesses, as to Sandom, Lyte and Holloway, namely; that M'Rae was in a chaise which passed through the City of London, coming from Northfleet. This man, who has the audacity to propose the receiving £.10,000, turns out to be a miserable lodger in Fetter-lane, who after he had carried into execution the whole of his part of the conspiracy was rewarded—but how? was he rewarded as he would have been by such wealthy persons as the gentlemen whose names stand upon this record? If they had engaged M'Rae in this scandalous affair, do you believe they would have left him on the Monday morning, with nothing but a £.10 note in his pocket? It appears,by the woman with whom he lodged, that he was before in a state of abject poverty, and that afterwards he was seen with a £.10 note, and that he bought a new hat and a new coat—and this is the man who proposes to receive £.10,000 from the Stock Exchange to tell all he knew. Gentlemen, I think I am not very much deceived myself, if I say, that you will be of opinion, that a man who was in the situation of M'Rae, was not very likely to have known of transactions which would have involved the four first defendants upon the record, in such a serious prosecution as that under which they now labour; and it is not the least singular part of his conduct, that he makes no defence to-day.
Now, gentlemen, you observe the manner in which (subject to my Lord's correction) I put the defence of the three defendants for whom I appear. I have stated to you, that Holloway and Lyte have admitted themselves guilty of most immoral conduct, for I never can believe that such transactions as these, let them be conducted by whom they may, are not immoral in the highest degree. Holloway, at all events, has since done all he can to make amends; he has confessed his guilt; he has come forward with Lyte, knowing and feeling that they had done wrong, with a view to protect the Stock Exchange against giving that monstrous sum for an imperfect discovery. Had Holloway or Lyte been concerned with any of the other defendants on the record, I submit there is the strongest reason to believe, that when he confessed his own guilt, he would not have been backward in speaking of theirs. He was not aware of the effect I am giving to his defence when he made it; and if he has done no more than that which he has stated, I submit to you, under his Lordship's correction, that you cannot find him guilty; and I submit to you, upon the reasoning with which I commenced my address to you, that whatever Sandom, Holloway andLyte did, is not at all connected with what Du Bourg, or the person so calling himself, did; that what they did is not connected with what the other three defendants on the record are supposed to have done; that there is not only no connexion proved between the two, but as far as the evidence extends that connexion is negatived; and then I submit to you, if you are of that opinion, these persons must be acquitted; because, as I apprehend, two distinct conspiracies included in one count, both being different offences, cannot be permitted to be proved in a court of justice. Crimes must be kept separate; persons must know what the charge is, on which they are called upon to defend themselves, and miserable would be the situation of persons charged with the commission of crimes, if one crime was connected with another totally distinct and separate from it, and both were brought under one and the same charge, to unite in the same defence.
Gentlemen, I have stated to you, that the gentlemen for whom I appear are in a very humble situation in life. Mr. Holloway is a wine merchant, Mr. Lyte was formerly an officer in a militia regiment, Mr. Sandom is a private gentleman of small fortune;—they are none of them, by their situation in life, apparently likely to be connected with any of the other defendants upon the record. What is there that should lead you to believe they are so? Mr. Holloway and Mr. Lyte stand under a sufficient load of guilt already; they have admitted themselves guilty of what they did on that day. Will you, therefore, because they admitted themselves guilty of one part of the day's infamy, put upon them the infamy of the whole? Will you do this, because the two plots happen to take place on the same day? Can you not, in your recollection, find, in former times, the same sort of coincidence? Do we not know that such things have happened; that plots of a similar description, carried on by different parties, buthaving the same end, have taken place on the same day? Have there not been much more curious coincidences than chaises driving to the same point of destination, and the persons in the carriages leaving them there? Have juries ever been satisfied that such coincidences should lead to proving a connection with plots in other respects dissimilar?
Gentlemen, it is upon these grounds, therefore, I submit to you, these three defendants are not guilty of the offence charged upon this record. I shall trouble you with no witnesses;—there is nothing for me to repel. If I am right in my notion of the law;—if I am right in the persuasion that you can see nothing in the evidence connecting the two plots together;—and if my opinion of the law is sanctioned by my Lord, when he shall address himself to you, there is nothing I have to answer for. It is out of my power to prove, by any evidence, that these three persons were not connected with any of the other defendants upon the record; such a negative as that I can never establish, and therefore I can have no proofs.
Gentlemen, such is the situation in which the three gentlemen for whom I appear stand. I have expressed my sentiments upon the subject as shortly as I could. It is undoubtedly a great misfortune to my learned friends, as well as myself, that we should have been called upon to make our defences, when both you and we are so much exhausted.
There is but one other circumstance for me to mention, it is but a slight one;—the person who came up from Dover appears to have paid all his post-chaise drivers in foreign coin; there is no pretence for saying that any thing was paid by my clients but in Bank of England notes; there is nothing in that respect, therefore, connecting these two parties together; and if they are not connected together, I trust you will find Mr. Holloway, Mr. Sandom, and Mr. Lyte, not guilty of this charge.
Lord Ellenborough.Gentlemen of the Jury; It appears to me this would be the most convenient time for dividing the cause, as the evidence will occupy considerable time, probably. I cannot expect your attendance before ten o'clock.
It being now three o'clock on Thursday morning, the Court adjourned to ten o'clock.
Thursday, 9 June 1814.
The Court met, pursuant to Adjournment.
Mr. Brougham:—We will first read the letters which were proved yesterday?
Lord Ellenborough:—These are read to contradict Le Marchant?
Mr. Brougham:—Yes, they are, my Lord; he proved the handwriting himself.
[The following Letters were read:]
"Glo'ster Hotel, Piccadilly,6th April 1814."My Lord,"Although I have not the honour of your acquaintance, I beg leave to address you, to solicit an interview with your lordship, for the purpose of explaining a conversation I had with Mr. De Berenger, a few days prior to the hoax of the 21st February last, and which must be interesting to you. If your lordship will condescend to appoint an hour, I will not fail attending punctually at your house, or elsewhere.I have the honour to be,my Lord,your Lordship's most obedienthumble servant,JsLe Marchant."Rt. Hon. Lord Cochrane,&c. &c. &c.
"Glo'ster Hotel, Piccadilly,6th April 1814.
"My Lord,
"Although I have not the honour of your acquaintance, I beg leave to address you, to solicit an interview with your lordship, for the purpose of explaining a conversation I had with Mr. De Berenger, a few days prior to the hoax of the 21st February last, and which must be interesting to you. If your lordship will condescend to appoint an hour, I will not fail attending punctually at your house, or elsewhere.
I have the honour to be,my Lord,your Lordship's most obedienthumble servant,JsLe Marchant."
Rt. Hon. Lord Cochrane,&c. &c. &c.
"Glo'ster Hotel, Piccadilly, London,7th April 1814."My Lord,"I had the honor yesterday to address your lordship, for the sole purpose of giving you that information you are not aware of; and knowing my letter was delivered (your lordship being at home when it was presented at the door), I beg to say, that I am now justified, from your silent contempt and defiance thereof,to make my information public; and which I should not have done before consulting you on that head, my sole wish being to state facts, and not to be considered acting underhand. As I feel exonerated from the last charge, and being in a certain degree called on to give my evidence relative to 21st February last; and as the rank I hold in society willgive weightto mytestimony, with the witnessesI shall bring forward on the occasion, I feel justified in the steps I am about to take, nor can your Lordship blame me in so doing, understanding the business in question will be brought before Parliament on a future day. I am sorry to have intruded myself on your Lordship's notice, by addressing you yesterday; but, to be correct, I thought it my duty to inform you by this, what have been and are my intentions.I have the honour to be,my Lord,your Lordship's most obedienthumble servant,J. Le Marchant."Rt. Hon. Lord Cochrane, M.P.&c. &c. &c.No. 13. Green-street, Grosvenor-square.
"Glo'ster Hotel, Piccadilly, London,7th April 1814.
"My Lord,
"I had the honor yesterday to address your lordship, for the sole purpose of giving you that information you are not aware of; and knowing my letter was delivered (your lordship being at home when it was presented at the door), I beg to say, that I am now justified, from your silent contempt and defiance thereof,to make my information public; and which I should not have done before consulting you on that head, my sole wish being to state facts, and not to be considered acting underhand. As I feel exonerated from the last charge, and being in a certain degree called on to give my evidence relative to 21st February last; and as the rank I hold in society willgive weightto mytestimony, with the witnessesI shall bring forward on the occasion, I feel justified in the steps I am about to take, nor can your Lordship blame me in so doing, understanding the business in question will be brought before Parliament on a future day. I am sorry to have intruded myself on your Lordship's notice, by addressing you yesterday; but, to be correct, I thought it my duty to inform you by this, what have been and are my intentions.
I have the honour to be,my Lord,your Lordship's most obedienthumble servant,J. Le Marchant."
Rt. Hon. Lord Cochrane, M.P.&c. &c. &c.No. 13. Green-street, Grosvenor-square.
"13, Green-street, April 8th, 1814."Sir,"I should have hoped, circumstanced as I am, and attacked by scoundrels of all descriptions, that a gentleman of your understanding might have discovered some better reason than that of "silent contempt," to account for the delay of a few hours in answering a note; the more particularly as your note of the 6th led me to conclude, that the information offered to me was meant as a mark of civility and attention, and was not on a subject in which you felt any personal interest.I am, Sir,your obedient servant,Cochrane."Colonel Le Marchant,Glocester Hotel.
"13, Green-street, April 8th, 1814.
"Sir,
"I should have hoped, circumstanced as I am, and attacked by scoundrels of all descriptions, that a gentleman of your understanding might have discovered some better reason than that of "silent contempt," to account for the delay of a few hours in answering a note; the more particularly as your note of the 6th led me to conclude, that the information offered to me was meant as a mark of civility and attention, and was not on a subject in which you felt any personal interest.
I am, Sir,your obedient servant,Cochrane."
Colonel Le Marchant,Glocester Hotel.
"Glo'ster Hotel, Piccadilly,"8th April 1814."My Lord,"I ask your Lordship's pardon for my letter of yesterday, and which was written under the supposition of being treated with silent contempt. To convince you of the high respect I have for your Lordship, I have the honor to enclose to you a statement of what I know relative to the 21st February; and I also now declare solemnly, that no power or consideration shall ever induce me to come forwards as an evidence against you, and that all I know on the subject shall be buried for ever in oblivion. Thus much I hope will convince you I am more your friend than an enemy; as my testimony, corroborated by the two officers, would be of great import, not (believe me) that I myself doubt in any wise your Lordship's affidavit, but De Berenger's conversation with me would to yourenemies be positive proof; as for my part, I now considerall that man told me to be diabolically false. If my conduct meets your approbation, can I ask for a reciprocal favour, as a temporaryloan, onsecuritybeing given.—I am just appointed to a situation of about £.1,200 a year, but for the moment am in the greatest distress, with a large family; youcanwithout risk, and have themeansto relieve us, and I believe, thewillof doing good. Necessity has driven me to ask your Lordship this favour. Whether granted or not, be assured of my keeping my oath now pledged, of secrecy; and that I am with the greatest respect,My Lord,your Lordship's most obedienthumble servant,JsLe Marchant."Right Hon. Lord Cochrane,&c. &c. &c.
"Glo'ster Hotel, Piccadilly,"8th April 1814.
"My Lord,
"I ask your Lordship's pardon for my letter of yesterday, and which was written under the supposition of being treated with silent contempt. To convince you of the high respect I have for your Lordship, I have the honor to enclose to you a statement of what I know relative to the 21st February; and I also now declare solemnly, that no power or consideration shall ever induce me to come forwards as an evidence against you, and that all I know on the subject shall be buried for ever in oblivion. Thus much I hope will convince you I am more your friend than an enemy; as my testimony, corroborated by the two officers, would be of great import, not (believe me) that I myself doubt in any wise your Lordship's affidavit, but De Berenger's conversation with me would to yourenemies be positive proof; as for my part, I now considerall that man told me to be diabolically false. If my conduct meets your approbation, can I ask for a reciprocal favour, as a temporaryloan, onsecuritybeing given.—I am just appointed to a situation of about £.1,200 a year, but for the moment am in the greatest distress, with a large family; youcanwithout risk, and have themeansto relieve us, and I believe, thewillof doing good. Necessity has driven me to ask your Lordship this favour. Whether granted or not, be assured of my keeping my oath now pledged, of secrecy; and that I am with the greatest respect,
My Lord,your Lordship's most obedienthumble servant,JsLe Marchant."
Right Hon. Lord Cochrane,&c. &c. &c.
JsLe Marchant'sStatement and Conversation withR. de Berenger."I became intimately acquainted with De Berenger about eighteen months ago, and have continued so till a few days prior to the hoax of 21st February last. He was in the habit of calling on me at the Glo'ster Coffee House, Piccadilly; and did so frequently, between the 10th and 16th of last February. He generally called late in the evening, saying he had dined with Lord Cochrane: Once he called about noon, stating he had breakfasted with his Lordship, had been with him on particular business, and was to return to dinner: he mentioned being very intimate with Lord Cochrane and the Hon. C. Johnstone; that they were kind friends to him, with whom he frequently dined. In his apartments, in the rules of theKing's Bench, he shewed me the devices he was drawing for Lord Cochrane's lamp invention. The last time he called upon me, it was very late; he appeared elated somewhat by drinking, having (as he said) dined with his Lordship; and in consequence of there being company, he could not then shew Lord Cochrane a copy of a memorial he had written to the Duke of York, praying to be given field officer's rank, and to be appointed to be sent out under Lord Cochrane, for the purpose of instructing the marines in rifle exercise; that his Lordship was very anxious to have him on board of his ship; that he objected going, unless with field-officer's rank, hoping to procure a majority; and that Lord Cochrane had said he would try and get him a lieutenant-colonelcy. De Berenger shewed me his memorial to the Duke, the head of which not being in propriâ formâ, I corrected; it was very long, and related to the losses his family had sustained as American loyalists; also on the cause of his first coming over to England. On my asking him, if the Duke of York was to appoint him, how he could extricate himself out of his difficulties and leave the Bench, he answered, 'All was settled on that score; that in consequence of the services he had rendered Lord Cochrane and Mr. C. Johnstone, in devising, whereby they had and could realize large sums by means of the funds or stocks, Lord Cochrane was his friend, and had told him a day or two ago, that for those services his Lordship had, unknown to him (De Berenger) kept a private purse for him, placing therein a certain per-centage on the profits Lord Cochrane had gained through his stock suggestions; and that now this purse had accumulated to an amount adequate almost to liberate him from the Bench.' When he said this, he appeared overjoyed, and said it in such a manner as to make me credit him. He remained with me this said evening, drinking hollands and water,till near two o'clock in the morning. On his leaving me, I thought of the conversation, especially that part which related to the funds, and conceived, from the numerous stock-jobbing reports, whereby the funds raised or were depressed, that he must have been deeply concerned in it. A few days after the 21st of February, it was whispered that Lord Cochrane was concerned in the hoax. Immediately, De Berenger's former conversation with me forcibly occurred to my mind, and I then mentioned to two friends, with whom I was in company, (and this prior to Lord Cochrane's affidavit, or De Berenger's name being mentioned), that I would lay my existence De Berenger was the sham Colonel De Bourg, and I stated my reasons for supposing so. Recollecting myself afterwards, I made them, as officers, pledge their oath and word of honour, that what I had said on the subject they would never repeat, or even hint at; and I am most fully persuaded they have not. The same day, but prior to the conversation above mentioned, the hoax being the topick in the coffee-room, I said, I thought I knew more than any one relative thereto, except the parties concerned, but I never mentioned any name whatever; yet some days after, I received two anonymous twopenny-post letters, recommending my giving up my information, either to Ministers or the Members of the Stock Exchange Committee; that I might depend on their secrecy, and an ample reward, in proportion to my report: of course these letters were left unnoticed. As soon as I suspected De Berenger to be Colonel De Bourg, I called twice on him, but could not get admittance; I also gave one of the officers above alluded to, a letter of introduction to De Berenger, for him to gain information on the rifle manœuvres: he called; was not admitted; left the letter; and, as well as myself, has heard nothing since of De Berenger."To the whole of this I can solemnly make oath; and I am sure I can bring the two officers in question to swear to what I said to them, andthe time when, although I have never since spoken to them on that subject.JsLe Marchant."
JsLe Marchant'sStatement and Conversation withR. de Berenger.
"I became intimately acquainted with De Berenger about eighteen months ago, and have continued so till a few days prior to the hoax of 21st February last. He was in the habit of calling on me at the Glo'ster Coffee House, Piccadilly; and did so frequently, between the 10th and 16th of last February. He generally called late in the evening, saying he had dined with Lord Cochrane: Once he called about noon, stating he had breakfasted with his Lordship, had been with him on particular business, and was to return to dinner: he mentioned being very intimate with Lord Cochrane and the Hon. C. Johnstone; that they were kind friends to him, with whom he frequently dined. In his apartments, in the rules of theKing's Bench, he shewed me the devices he was drawing for Lord Cochrane's lamp invention. The last time he called upon me, it was very late; he appeared elated somewhat by drinking, having (as he said) dined with his Lordship; and in consequence of there being company, he could not then shew Lord Cochrane a copy of a memorial he had written to the Duke of York, praying to be given field officer's rank, and to be appointed to be sent out under Lord Cochrane, for the purpose of instructing the marines in rifle exercise; that his Lordship was very anxious to have him on board of his ship; that he objected going, unless with field-officer's rank, hoping to procure a majority; and that Lord Cochrane had said he would try and get him a lieutenant-colonelcy. De Berenger shewed me his memorial to the Duke, the head of which not being in propriâ formâ, I corrected; it was very long, and related to the losses his family had sustained as American loyalists; also on the cause of his first coming over to England. On my asking him, if the Duke of York was to appoint him, how he could extricate himself out of his difficulties and leave the Bench, he answered, 'All was settled on that score; that in consequence of the services he had rendered Lord Cochrane and Mr. C. Johnstone, in devising, whereby they had and could realize large sums by means of the funds or stocks, Lord Cochrane was his friend, and had told him a day or two ago, that for those services his Lordship had, unknown to him (De Berenger) kept a private purse for him, placing therein a certain per-centage on the profits Lord Cochrane had gained through his stock suggestions; and that now this purse had accumulated to an amount adequate almost to liberate him from the Bench.' When he said this, he appeared overjoyed, and said it in such a manner as to make me credit him. He remained with me this said evening, drinking hollands and water,till near two o'clock in the morning. On his leaving me, I thought of the conversation, especially that part which related to the funds, and conceived, from the numerous stock-jobbing reports, whereby the funds raised or were depressed, that he must have been deeply concerned in it. A few days after the 21st of February, it was whispered that Lord Cochrane was concerned in the hoax. Immediately, De Berenger's former conversation with me forcibly occurred to my mind, and I then mentioned to two friends, with whom I was in company, (and this prior to Lord Cochrane's affidavit, or De Berenger's name being mentioned), that I would lay my existence De Berenger was the sham Colonel De Bourg, and I stated my reasons for supposing so. Recollecting myself afterwards, I made them, as officers, pledge their oath and word of honour, that what I had said on the subject they would never repeat, or even hint at; and I am most fully persuaded they have not. The same day, but prior to the conversation above mentioned, the hoax being the topick in the coffee-room, I said, I thought I knew more than any one relative thereto, except the parties concerned, but I never mentioned any name whatever; yet some days after, I received two anonymous twopenny-post letters, recommending my giving up my information, either to Ministers or the Members of the Stock Exchange Committee; that I might depend on their secrecy, and an ample reward, in proportion to my report: of course these letters were left unnoticed. As soon as I suspected De Berenger to be Colonel De Bourg, I called twice on him, but could not get admittance; I also gave one of the officers above alluded to, a letter of introduction to De Berenger, for him to gain information on the rifle manœuvres: he called; was not admitted; left the letter; and, as well as myself, has heard nothing since of De Berenger.
"To the whole of this I can solemnly make oath; and I am sure I can bring the two officers in question to swear to what I said to them, andthe time when, although I have never since spoken to them on that subject.
JsLe Marchant."
The Right Honourable Lord Viscount Melville sworn.Examined by Mr. Scarlett.
Q.Your lordship is acquainted, I believe, with Admiral Sir Alexander Cochrane?
A.I am.
Q.I believe that Sir Alexander Cochrane has been lately appointed upon a distant service?
A.He has.
Q.Does your lordship recollect any application made to you by Sir Alexander Cochrane, on behalf of Mr. De Berenger?
A.I recollect Sir Alexander Cochrane, several times, more than once I am certain, applying to me, that Mr. De Berenger might be allowed to accompany him in his command, to remain with him on the North American station, to which he was appointed.
Q.Does your lordship recollect about what time those applications were made?
A.I do not recollect as to the precise time, but it was a short time before Sir Alexander Cochrane sailed upon his command.
Q.Does your lordship recollect about what time Sir Alexander Cochrane sailed?
A.I think I should say about five or six months ago; but I am not at all positive.
Q.Does your lordship recollect the particular service that Sir Alexander Cochrane recommended the gentleman for?
A.Sir Alexander Cochrane was desirous that thisgentleman should accompany him, for the purpose of instructing, either a corps to be raised in that part of the world, or the royal marines, in the rifle exercise; and afterwards, when Sir Alexander Cochrane wished that an officer of engineers should accompany him, and when I stated my knowledge, from other circumstances connected with His Majesty's service, that it would be difficult to give him that assistance, from the small number of engineer officers that could be procured, Sir Alexander Cochrane mentioned, that as an engineer officer, he would be quite satisfied with Mr. De Berenger.
Q.Does your lordship recollect, whether any particular rank was necessary or usual to accompany such an appointment, or whether it was solicited by Sir Alexander Cochrane?
A.I think there was, but I am not positive; I recollect perfectly explaining to Sir Alexander Cochrane, that as far as related to His Majesty's naval service, I could not agree to the appointment; and I recommended to Sir Alexander Cochrane to apply to the Secretary of State, or the Commander in Chief, stating, that if they agreed to it, I should have no objection to Baron De Berenger's accompanying Sir Alexander Cochrane.
Q.Was Lord Cochrane appointed to a vessel to join Sir Alexander Cochrane afterwards?
A.He was.
Q.The Tonnant?
A.Yes; I think he was appointed before Sir Alexander Cochrane sailed; but of that I am not positive.
Q.Before Sir Alexander sailed to join him upon that station?
A.Yes; I am not quite positive about that, but it was very nearly about that time.
Mr. Park.I had my Lord Melville as a witness in my brief, not knowing that my friend would call him;I should have called his lordship to these facts, if my friend had not.
Lord Ellenborough.Your lordship has no personal knowledge of Mr. De Berenger?
A.No.
Colonel Torrens sworn.Examined by Mr. Brougham.
Q.You are secretary to the Commander in Chief?
A.I am.
Q.Do you remember any application being made in the department with which you are connected, in behalf of Captain De Berenger?
A.I do.
Q.About what time was that?
A.It was in the latter end of December, or the beginning of January.
Q.Do you recollect by whom the application was made?
A.Sir Alexander Cochrane.
Q.What was the purport of it?
A.Sir Alexander came to me twice, I think, if not three times, to urge the appointment of Mr. De Berenger to go to America, for the purpose of applying his talents as a light infantry officer, to the service on which Sir Alexander Cochrane was about to embark.
Q.Were any difficulties started to this application?
A.Great difficulties.
Q.What objection was made to it?
A.I represented——
Lord Ellenborough.I do not know to what point this applies?
Mr. Brougham.Merely that it confirms the statement made by Lord Cochrane, and shows a connexion between the different parties, consistent with that statement.
Lord Ellenborough.It shows that he was acquainted with Sir Alexander Cochrane, and that he recommendedhim to the appointment; we are not trying the propriety or impropriety of the orders of Government?
Mr. Brougham.. No, my lord; but Lord Cochrane's statement refers to the difficulty itself.
Lord Ellenborough.But what the difficulties were is not at all material; it would be going into that with which we have nothing to do?
Mr. Gurney.I do not object to it.
Mr. Brougham.I will not enter into it, my lord. In consequence of those difficulties which were felt, the appointment did not take place?
A.It did not.
Q.But the appointment, in consequence of this application, came under the consideration of the Commander in Chief's office?
A.Certainly.
Q.Were those difficulties, without asking what they were, particularly personal to Captain De Berenger?
Lord Ellenborough.No; that we cannot ask.
Mr. Park.It goes to character?
Lord Ellenborough.Then put the question to character at once; you must not go indirectly into it, if Colonel Torrens knows his character at all.
Mr. Park.You do not know, personally, his character?
A.I do not, personally.
Q.Are you acquainted with the hand-writing of Mr. De Berenger?
A.Not in the least.
Q.You have never seen him write?
A.I never did.
Q.Have you received letters, purporting to be from him upon subjects of business, and have you answered and acted upon those letters?
A.I do not recollect, since I have been military secretary ever to have received any.
Q.He had been, I believe, in the rifle corps of the Saint James's.
A.I believe he had.
Lord Ellenborough.Do you know him, personally?
A.I know nothing of him, personally.
Henry Goulburn, Esq. M. P. sworn.Examined by Mr. Serjeant Best.
Q.You are under secretary of state for the colonial department?
A.I am.
Q.Can you tell us, whether any and what application was made to your department for Mr. De Berenger going abroad with Lord Cochrane?
Lord Ellenborough.The terms of the application I think we cannot hear; I do not think Government secrets (when I say secrets, I mean the detail of them) ought to be stated; we cannot go further than the fact, that an application was made.
Mr. Serjeant Best.That is all we want, my lord; was any application made to the colonial department?
A.Yes; there was.
Q.By whom?
A.By Sir Alexander Cochrane.
Lord Ellenborough.All this must have been in writing, I should think?
A.Yes, it was.
Lord Ellenborough.You have laid this basis, that there had been some application, and that it had been in contemplation, that he should go out as connected with the service.
Mr. Park.That is all we wish, we want to show a connexion with the Cochranes, without this illicit connexion.
Lord Ellenborough.No doubt there had been an intimacyand connexion; whether for good or ill is the question?
Mr. Serjeant Best.And this confirms in terms the statement contained in the affidavit of Lord Cochrane.
William Robert Wale King sworn.Examined by Mr. Scarlett.
Q.What are you by business?
A.A tin-plate worker.
Q.Were you employed, in the course of last summer and this last winter, by Lord Cochrane, respecting the making him any lamps?
A.Yes, I was.
Q.What was the business on which you were employed?
A.In the manufacture of signal lanthorns and lamps.
Q.For the use of the navy?
A.Yes.
Q.Was it a new sort of lamp?
A.Yes; for which Lord Cochrane has since obtained a patent.
Lord Ellenborough.A patent cannot be proved in that way.
Mr. Scarlett.My friend, Mr. Gurney, has intimated to me that he will not object to it. Was his Lordship in the habit of coming to your manufactory, while you were so employed?
A.Nearly every day.
Q.Do you recollect his lordship being there on the 21st of February last?
A.Yes.
Q.Where is your manufactory?
A.No. 1, Cock-lane, Snow-hill.
Q.Do you recollect about what time in the morning he came?
A.Between ten and eleven it was that he was with me.
Q.Was there any particular time when he was accustomed to come?
A.That was about the time he usually came.
Q.Do you remember the circumstance of any note being brought to him by the servant, whilst he was there?
A.Yes, I do perfectly well.
Q.Were you present when the note was delivered to him?
A.I was.
Q.What did his lordship do on receiving that note?
A.He immediately opened it, and retired into the passage of the manufactory; he came into the workshop again, and shortly after went away.
Q.What time of the day was this?
A.Between ten and eleven.
Q.What time had his lordship been at your manufactory before the servant came?
A.It might be a quarter of an hour, but I cannot speak precisely to that.
Mr. Park.How far is Cock-lane from Grosvenor-square?
A.I should suppose a mile and a half.
Q.I should think it was two miles, did you ever walk it?
A.No; I do not know that I have.
Lord Ellenborough.That is not of much consequence, I should think.
Mr. Gurney.Any distance my friends please.
Mr. Park.It is of consequence when it comes to eleven o'clock, the stock was all sold by that time.
Lord Ellenborough.Did you see him read the note which he received?
A.I saw him read the note in the passage of the manufactory.
Lord Ellenborough.He made no observation upon reading it?
A.No; not that I heard.
A Juryman.Did it occupy any time?
A.No.
Lord Ellenborough.His Lordship did not make any observation upon reading it?
A.No; I think only that he said, Very well, Thomas.
Mr. Bowering sworn.Examined by Mr. Brougham.
Q.What are you?
A.A clerk in the Adjutant General's office.
Q.Do you know whether Lord Cochrane's brother, Major Cochrane, was with the army in the south of France, at the beginning of this year?
A.He is so returned in the returns from the 15th hussars.
Q.About that time, do you also know, whether or not he was upon the sick list?
A.He is returned "sick present" on the 25th of January.
Lord Ellenborough.That return did not reach you on the 25th of January?
A.No.
Lord Ellenborough.When did it reach you?
A.I do not know; it was received in the regular course, but I cannot state the day.
Mr. Brougham.Over what space of time did that return extend?
A.From the 24th of December to the 24th of January.
Thomas Dewman sworn.Examined by Mr. Scarlett.
Q.Are you a servant of my Lord Cochrane's?
A.Yes.
Q.Have you been an old servant in the family?
A.I have been so for about seventeen years.
Q.Do you remember carrying his lordship a note any morning in February, to Mr. King's lamp manufactory?
A.Yes, I do, perfectly well.
Q.Do you remember a gentleman coming to Lord Cochrane's house in a hackney coach?
A.Yes.
Q.Did you know the gentleman?
A.I had never seen him in my life before that time, nor yet since.
Q.Did the gentleman send you with a note to my lord?
A.Yes, he did; he first asked me where he was gone to, and I told him, he was gone to Cumberland-street to breakfast, because his lordship told me so.
Q.That was to his uncle's?
A.It was.
Q.Did you go to Cumberland-street after him?
A.I did.
Q.Not finding him at Cumberland-street, where did you go to seek him?
A.I came back to our house in Green-street, with the note; I informed the gentleman who had written the note, that he was not there; and the gentleman said, Pray do you know where he is gone to, or where his lordship could be found? I told him, I thought I could find him, but I thought I might be too late; for when his lordship went out, he said to me, Thomas, after you have got your breakfast, follow me, with that globe glass, to Mr. King's; I had been there.
Q.You had been to Mr. King's before?
A.Yes; on Saturday I went with some things, and this globe glass I should have taken on Saturday, but I forgot it.
Q.His lordship having told you to follow him with this globe glass to Mr. King's, you supposed he might be there?
A.Yes.
Q.Was that the reason for taking the note to him there?
A.Yes; I told the gentleman that I most likely should find him at Mr. King's, as I was going to follow him there with this glass; whether this gentleman had come or not, I should have gone there with this glass.
Q.You took the note with you?
A.He took the note from me, and said, I will add two or three more lines to it.
Q.Did you take the note to his lordship at Mr. King's?
A.I did.
Q.Did you see him there?
A.I did; I enquired of Mr. King's men—
Q.I did not ask you whether you enquired of Mr. King's men, but, whether you saw him there?
A.I did.
Q.Did his lordship read the note in your presence?
A.He did.
Q.Did you leave him there, at Mr. King's?
A.I left him at Mr. King's.
Q.Had his lordship another man-servant at that time?
A.Not in Green-street; no one but me.
Q.Where was his other servant?
A.His other servant was at his lordship's country seat, near Southampton, and had been there two or three months before that.
Q.Had he discharged any servant?
A.Mr. Davis he had given warning to, a month after his lordship was appointed to the Tonnant?
Q.When did Davis quit him?
A.Davis left him about two days, or three days it might be, before he went into Green-street; his time was up then, but he was in Green-street.
Lord Ellenborough.For what purpose is this?
Mr. Scarlett.Only to shew that we cannot find this person.
A.Davis was not in his lordship's service at that time, but he happened to be in the kitchen when the gentleman came.
Q.What is become of Davis?
A.He is gone with Admiral Fleming, to the West Indies.
Mr. Park.Do you recollect what time of the day this gentleman came to your master's?
A.As near ten as possible; I think a little past ten.
Q.It was so late as that, when he arrived there?
A.Yes.
Q.You were hired to go into the country, in the room of my lord's steward, who was going to sea with him?
A.Yes.
Lord Ellenborough.I thought you had been in the family seventeen years?
Mr. Park.You had been with Lord Dundonald?
A.Yes; I was engaged with Lord Cochrane ever since last February.
Q.You were in Lord Cochrane's peculiar service only from February?
A.No.
Q.You said something about having been seventeen years in the service?
A.In the family.
Q.Chiefly with Lord Dundonald, the father?
A.Yes, and with two of his sons.
Q.You did not return home from King's immediately?
A.I did not arrive in Green-street till near two, having a father living in Castle-street.
Q.You do not know whether Lord Cochrane saw this person at his house when he came back, or how long they were together?
A.No, I do not.
Mr. Serjeant Pell.You have lived with Lord Cochrane several years?
A.No, in the family; only since Christmas with his lordship.
Q.Do you know the person of Mr. Holloway?
A.No, I do not, not even when I see him.
Q.Do you know a person of the name of Lyte?
A.No.
Lord Ellenborough.What did Lord Cochrane say or do when you gave him this note?
A.He said, "Then I must return."
Q.That was all that he said?
A.Yes; I saw him come out of Mr. King's.
Q.You know the different members of the family?
A.Yes.
Q.Do you know the major?
A.Yes, I attended on the major when he first went into the army.
Q.I mean Major Cochrane?
A.The brother of Lord Cochrane,—the younger brother.
Q.The brother who is in Spain or France?
A.Yes, he was there lately.
Q.All that Lord Cochrane said was, "Well, Thomas, I will return?"
A.Yes, that was all that he said.
[Mr. Poole, of the Patent Office, was called, but did not answer.]
Mr. Gurney.I will admit the patent to be of any date you please.
Mr. Brougham.It is a patent for the invention of a lamp; the date is 20th of February.
Mr. Gurney.I will take my learned friend's word for that.
Mr. Brougham.That is the case on the part of my Lord Cochrane.
Mr. Scarlett.The next witness is to the case of Mr. Cochrane Johnstone.
Mr. Park.I shall use him also.
Mr. Gabriel Tahourdin sworn.Examined by Mr. Scarlett.
Q.How long have you known Mr. De Berenger?
A.About five or six years.
Q.Were you the person that introduced him to Mr. Cochrane Johnstone?
A.I was.
Q.How long ago?
A.In May 1813.
Q.You were well acquainted with Mr. Cochrane Johnstone.
A.I had not been well acquainted with him at that time.
Q.Do you know, whether Mr. Cochrane Johnstone, at that time, was in possession of a garden or some premises at Paddington?
A.Yes, in Alsop's Buildings.
Q.Which he was desirous of improving?
A.He was.
Q.What was the occasion of your introducing Mr. De Berenger to him?
A.It was mere chance.
Q.Did you, or anybody else, to your own knowledge, recommend Mr. De Berenger as a person who could assist him in planning that place?
A.I had previously introduced him: I will just state the circumstance that led to my introduction.
Q.I do not know that the circumstance is in the least material. You say the introduction was at first accidental; was there, in consequence of that accident, any connectionwith them, as to Mr. De Berenger assisting him in this plan?
A.Yes.
Q.The place was intended to be called Vittoria?
A.Yes.
Q.Did Mr. De Berenger employ himself in preparing a plan, as an artist?
A.He did, which plan is here (producing it).
Lord Ellenborough.The exhibition of the plan cannot be important, I should think.
Mr. Scarlett.It may become material, because Mr. Cochrane Johnstone had paid him for the plan.
Lord Ellenborough.Whether there were colonades, and so on, or not, I should think cannot be material.
Mr. Park.The production of the plan is necessary only, to shew that it is worth the money which was paid.
Lord Ellenborough.I only wish to avoid useless particularity; I do not wish to curtail you of the least particle of proper proof.
Mr. Scarlett.Do you know, whether, in the month of September in the last year, Mr. De Berenger had made considerable progress in that plan?
A.He had; he had nearly completed it.
Q.He had not quite completed it?
A.No.
Q.Do you know whether, shortly before Mr. Cochrane Johnstone went to Scotland in September, he made him any payment on account of that?
A.He did, through my medium.
Q.Besides the plan, had De Berenger prepared a prospectus, with a full and minute description of the objects of the design?
A.He had.
Q.Had he got that printed?
A.He had; he made him one payment of £.100.
Q.Do you know that Mr. Johnstone had got a number of his prospectus, to take with him to Scotland?
A.He had.
Q.In the month of September, last year?
A.Yes, early in October; the first or second of October, I think.
Q.Do you know of any payment made by Mr. Johnstone since that time, upon account of that plan?
A.Yes; it was not made by me.
Q.Were you present when it was made?
A.No.
Q.I understood you to say, you knew that the payment was made?
A.By letters.
Q.Were the letters sent to you?
A.Yes.
Q.They passed through your hands?
A.Yes, they did.
Lord Ellenborough.The moment it gets into a letter, that moment the parol statement ends.
Mr. Scarlett.Certainly, my Lord. Do you know whether any application was made by Mr. De Berenger after the plan was completed, for payment?
Mr. Gurney.Were you present?
Mr. Scarlett.Or did you convey any draft?
A.Yes, I conveyed a letter, and I spoke several times.
Q.To Mr. Johnstone.
A.Yes, upon the subject of the paying him for the plans.
Q.Without at present alluding to any letter, do you know what was the price that De Berenger asked for the remainder of the plans?
A.No price, I believe, was ever stipulated; no price was ever fixed till February last. Mr. Johnstone and myself had repeated conversations on the subject of the price ofthe plans, and as to the remaining sum that he should pay him.
Q.You made repeated applications to Mr. Johnstone to pay him?
A.I did, always in a delicate way, not saying, that Mr. Berenger required so much; but he requested I would take a mode of giving a hint to Mr. Johnstone, as to the payment; a hint he was always ready to take.
Q.Have you any means of knowing what was the money Mr. Johnstone did pay him?
A.Yes, I think I have.
Q.When was the payment?
A.In February.
Lord Ellenborough.At what time in February.
A.Mr. Johnstone sent me a letter on the 22d of February, enclosing a letter to him from Mr. De Berenger.
Mr. Scarlett.He sent to you, on the 22d of February, a letter he had received from Mr. De Berenger?
A.He did.
Q.Did you keep the letter?
A.I did, here it is (producing it).
Lord Ellenborough.De Berenger's letter was enclosed in one of Mr. Cochrane Johnstone's?
A.Yes.
Q.Were the letters by the post? had they any post-mark upon them?
A.No; this letter was delivered.
Q.The delivery and date were cotemporary with the transaction, namely, about the 22d of February?
A.Yes, it was on the 22d of February I received it.
[The letters were read, and are as follow.]