Hyl.I own myself entirely satisfied, that they are all equally apparent, and that there is no such thing as colour really inhering in external bodies, but that it is altogether in the light. And what confirms me in this opinion is, that in proportion to the light colours are still more or less vivid; and if there be no light, then are there no colours perceived. Besides, allowing there are colours on external objects, yet, how is it possible for us to perceive them? For no external body affects the mind, unless it acts first on our organs of sense. But the only action of bodies is motion; and motion cannot be communicated otherwise than by impulse. A distant object therefore cannot act on the eye; nor consequently make itself or its properties perceivable to the soul. Whence it plainly follows that it is immediately some contiguous substance, which, operating on the eye, occasions a perception of colours: and such is light.Phil.How! is light then a substance?Hyl.I tell you, Philonous, external light is nothing but a thin fluid substance, whose minute particles being agitated with a brisk motion, and in various manners reflected from the different surfaces of outward objects to the eyes, communicate different motions to the optic nerves; which, being propagated to the brain, cause therein various impressions; and these are attended with the sensations of red, blue, yellow, &c.Phil.It seems then the light doth no more than shake the optic nerves.Hyl.Nothing else.Phil.And consequent to each particular motion of the nerves, the mind is affected with a sensation, which is some particular colour.Hyl.Right.Phil.And these sensations have no existence without the mind.Hyl.They have not.[pg 397]Phil.How then do you affirm that colours are in the light; since bylightyou understand a corporeal substance external to the mind?Hyl.Light and colours, as immediately perceived by us, I grant cannot exist without the mind. But in themselves they are only the motions and configurations of certain insensible particles of matter.Phil.Colours then, in the vulgar sense, or taken for the immediate objects of sight, cannot agree to any but a perceiving substance.Hyl.That is what I say.Phil.Well then, since you give up the point as to those sensible qualities which are alone thought colours by all mankind beside, you may hold what you please with regard to those invisible ones of the philosophers. It is not my business to dispute aboutthem; only I would advise you to bethink yourself, whether, considering the inquiry we are upon, it be prudent for you to affirm—the red and blue which we see are not real colours, but certain unknown motions and figures which no man ever did or can see are truly so. Are not these shocking notions, and are not they subject to as many ridiculous inferences, as those you were obliged to renounce before in the case of sounds?Hyl.I frankly own, Philonous, that it is in vain to stand out any longer. Colours, sounds, tastes, in a word all those termedsecondary qualities, have certainly no existence without the mind. But by this acknowledgment I must not be supposed to derogate anything from the reality of Matter, or external objects; seeing it is no more than several philosophers maintain796, who nevertheless are the farthest imaginable from denying Matter. For the clearer understanding of this, you must know sensible qualities are by philosophers divided intoPrimaryandSecondary797. The former are Extension, Figure, Solidity, Gravity, Motion, and Rest; and these they hold exist really in Bodies. The latter are those above enumerated; or,[pg 398]briefly,all sensible qualities beside the Primary; which they assert are only so many sensations or ideas existing nowhere but in the mind. But all this, I doubt not, you are apprised of. For my part, I have been a long time sensible there was such an opinion current among philosophers, but was never thoroughly convinced of its truth until now.Phil.You are still then of opinion thatextensionandfiguresare inherent in external unthinking substances?Hyl.I am.Phil.But what if the same arguments which are brought against Secondary Qualities will hold good against these also?Hyl.Why then I shall be obliged to think, they too exist only in the mind.Phil.Is it your opinion the very figure and extension which you perceive by sense exist in the outward object or material substance?Hyl.It is.Phil.Have all other animals as good grounds to think the same of the figure and extension which they see and feel?Hyl.Without doubt, if they have any thought at all.Phil.Answer me, Hylas. Think you the senses were bestowed upon all animals for their preservation and well-being in life? or were they given to men alone for this end?Hyl.I make no question but they have the same use in all other animals.Phil.If so, is it not necessary they should be enabled by them to perceive their own limbs, and those bodies which are capable of harming them?Hyl.Certainly.Phil.A mite therefore must be supposed to see his own foot, and things equal or even less than it, as bodies of some considerable dimension; though at the same time they appear to you scarce discernible, or at best as so many visible points798?Hyl.I cannot deny it.[pg 399]Phil.And to creatures less than the mite they will seem yet larger?Hyl.They will.Phil.Insomuch that what you can hardly discern will to another extremely minute animal appear as some huge mountain?Hyl.All this I grant.Phil.Can one and the same thing be at the same time in itself of different dimensions?Hyl.That were absurd to imagine.Phil.But, from what you have laid down it follows that both the extension by you perceived, and that perceived by the mite itself, as likewise all those perceived by lesser animals, are each of them the true extension of the mite's foot; that is to say, by your own principles you are led into an absurdity.Hyl.There seems to be some difficulty in the point.Phil.Again, have you not acknowledged that no real inherent property of any object can be changed without some change in the thing itself?Hyl.I have.Phil.But, as we approach to or recede from an object, the visible extension varies, being at one distance ten or a hundred times greater than at another. Doth it not therefore follow from hence likewise that it is not really inherent in the object?Hyl.I own I am at a loss what to think.Phil.Your judgment will soon be determined, if you will venture to think as freely concerning this quality as you have done concerning the rest. Was it not admitted as a good argument, that neither heat nor cold was in the water, because it seemed warm to one hand and cold to the other?Hyl.It was.Phil.Is it not the very same reasoning to conclude, there is no extension or figure in an object, because to one eye it shall seem little, smooth, and round, when at the same time it appears to the other, great, uneven, and angular?Hyl.The very same. But does this latter fact ever happen?Phil.You may at any time make the experiment, by[pg 400]looking with one eye bare, and with the other through a microscope.Hyl.I know not how to maintain it; and yet I am loath to give upextension, I see so many odd consequences following upon such a concession.Phil.Odd, say you? After the concessions already made, I hope you will stick at nothing for its oddness. [799But, on the other hand, should it not seem very odd, if the general reasoning which includes all other sensible qualities did not also include extension? If it be allowed that no idea, nor anything like an idea, can exist in an unperceiving substance, then surely it follows that no figure, or mode of extension, which we can either perceive, or imagine, or have any idea of, can be really inherent in Matter; not to mention the peculiar difficulty there must be in conceiving a material substance, prior to and distinct from extension, to be thesubstratumof extension. Be the sensible quality what it will—figure, or sound, or colour, it seems alike impossible it should subsist in that which doth not perceive it.]Hyl.I give up the point for the present, reserving still a right to retract my opinion, in case I shall hereafter discover any false step in my progress to it.Phil.That is a right you cannot be denied. Figures and extension being despatched, we proceed next tomotion. Can a real motion in any external body be at the same time both very swift and very slow?Hyl.It cannot.Phil.Is not the motion of a body swift in a reciprocal proportion to the time it takes up in describing any given space? Thus a body that describes a mile in an hour moves three times faster than it would in case it described only a mile in three hours.Hyl.I agree with you.Phil.And is not time measured by the succession of ideas in our minds?Hyl.It is.Phil.And is it not possible ideas should succeed one another twice as fast in your mind as they do in mine, or in that of some spirit of another kind?[pg 401]Hyl.I own it.Phil.Consequently the same body may to another seem to perform its motion over any space in half the time that it doth to you. And the same reasoning will hold as to any other proportion: that is to say, according to your principles (since the motions perceived are both really in the object) it is possible one and the same body shall be really moved the same way at once, both very swift and very slow. How is this consistent either with common sense, or with what you just now granted?Hyl.I have nothing to say to it.Phil.Then as forsolidity; either you do not mean any sensible quality by that word, and so it is beside our inquiry: or if you do, it must be either hardness or resistance. But both the one and the other are plainly relative to our senses: it being evident that what seems hard to one animal may appear soft to another, who hath greater force and firmness of limbs. Nor is it less plain that the resistance I feel is not in the body.Hyl.I own the verysensationof resistance, which is all you immediately perceive, is not in the body; but thecauseof that sensation is.Phil.But the causes of our sensations are not things immediately perceived, and therefore are not sensible. This point I thought had been already determined.Hyl.I own it was; but you will pardon me if I seem a little embarrassed: I know not how to quit my old notions.Phil.To help you out, do but consider that ifextensionbe once acknowledged to have no existence without the mind, the same must necessarily be granted of motion, solidity, and gravity; since they all evidently suppose extension. It is therefore superfluous to inquire particularly concerning each of them. In denying extension, you have denied them all to have any real existence800.Hyl.I wonder, Philonous, if what you say be true, why those philosophers who deny the Secondary Qualities any real existence should yet attribute it to the Primary. If there is no difference between them, how can this be accounted for?[pg 402]Phil.It is not my business to account for every opinion of the philosophers. But, among other reasons which may be assigned for this, it seems probable that pleasure and pain being rather annexed to the former than the latter may be one. Heat and cold, tastes and smells, have something more vividly pleasing or disagreeable than the ideas of extension, figure, and motion affect us with. And, it being too visibly absurd to hold that pain or pleasure can be in an unperceiving Substance, men are more easily weaned from believing the external existence of the Secondary than the Primary Qualities. You will be satisfied there is something in this, if you recollect the difference you made between an intense and more moderate degree of heat; allowing the one a real existence, while you denied it to the other. But, after all, there is no rational ground for that distinction; for, surely an indifferent sensation is as trulya sensationas one more pleasing or painful; and consequently should not any more than they be supposed to exist in an unthinking subject.Hyl.It is just come into my head, Philonous, that I have somewhere heard of a distinction between absolute and sensible extension801. Now, though it be acknowledged thatgreatandsmall, consisting merely in the relation which other extended beings have to the parts of our own bodies, do not really inhere in the substances themselves; yet nothing obliges us to hold the same with regard toabsolute extension, which is something abstracted fromgreatandsmall, from this or that particular magnitude or figure. So likewise as to motion;swiftandsloware altogether relative to the succession of ideas in our own minds. But, it doth not follow, because those modifications of motion exist not without the mind, that therefore absolute motion abstracted from them doth not.Phil.Pray what is it that distinguishes one motion, or one part of extension, from another? Is it not something sensible, as some degree of swiftness or slowness, some certain magnitude or figure peculiar to each?[pg 403]Hyl.I think so.Phil.These qualities, therefore, stripped of all sensible properties, are without all specific and numerical differences, as the schools call them.Hyl.They are.Phil.That is to say, they are extension in general, and motion in general.Hyl.Let it be so.Phil.But it is a universally received maxim thatEverything which exists is particular802. How then can motion in general, or extension in general, exist in any corporeal substance?Hyl.I will take time to solve your difficulty.Phil.But I think the point may be speedily decided. Without doubt you can tell whether you are able to frame this or that idea. Now I am content to put our dispute on this issue. If you can frame in your thoughts a distinctabstract ideaof motion or extension, divested of all those sensible modes, as swift and slow, great and small, round and square, and the like, which are acknowledged to exist only in the mind, I will then yield the point you contend for. But if you cannot, it will be unreasonable on your side to insist any longer upon what you have no notion803of.Hyl.To confess ingenuously, I cannot.Phil.Can you even separate the ideas of extension and motion from the ideas of all those qualities which they who make the distinction termsecondary?Hyl.What! is it not an easy matter to consider extension and motion by themselves, abstracted from all other sensible qualities? Pray how do the mathematicians treat of them?Phil.I acknowledge, Hylas, it is not difficult to form general propositions and reasonings about those qualities, without mentioning any other; and, in this sense, to consider or treat of them abstractedly804. But, how doth it follow that, because I can pronounce the wordmotionby itself, I can form the idea of it in my mind exclusive[pg 404]of body? or, because theorems may be made of extension and figures, without any mention ofgreatorsmall, or any other sensible mode or quality, that therefore it is possible such an abstract idea of extension, without any particular size or figure, or sensible quality805, should be distinctly formed, and apprehended by the mind? Mathematicians treat of quantity, without regarding what other sensible qualities it is attended with, as being altogether indifferent to their demonstrations. But, when laying aside the words, they contemplate the bare ideas, I believe you will find, they are not the pure abstracted ideas of extension.Hyl.But what say you topure intellect? May not abstracted ideas be framed by that faculty?Phil.Since I cannot frame abstract ideas at all, it is plain I cannot frame them by the help ofpure intellect; whatsoever faculty you understand by those words806. Besides, not to inquire into the nature of pure intellect and its spiritual objects, asvirtue,reason,God, or the like, thus much seems manifest—that sensible things are only to be perceived by sense, or represented by the imagination. Figures, therefore, and extension, being originally perceived by sense, do not belong to pure intellect: but, for your farther satisfaction, try if you can frame the idea of any figure, abstracted from all particularities of size, or even from other sensible qualities.Hyl.Let me think a little——I do not find that I can.Phil.And can you think it possible that should really exist in nature which implies a repugnancy in its conception?Hyl.By no means.Phil.Since therefore it is impossible even for the mind to disunite the ideas of extension and motion from all other sensible qualities, doth it not follow, that where the one exist there necessarily the other exist likewise?Hyl.It should seem so.[pg 405]Phil.Consequently, the very same arguments which you admitted as conclusive against the Secondary Qualities are, without any farther application of force, against the Primary too. Besides, if you will trust your senses, is it not plain all sensible qualities coexist, or to them appear as being in the same place? Do they ever represent a motion, or figure, as being divested of all other visible and tangible qualities?Hyl.You need say no more on this head. I am free to own, if there be no secret error or oversight in our proceedings hitherto, thatallsensible qualities are alike to be denied existence without the mind807. But, my fear is that I have been too liberal in my former concessions, or overlooked some fallacy or other. In short, I did not take time to think.Phil.For that matter, Hylas, you may take what time you please in reviewing the progress of our inquiry. You are at liberty to recover any slips you might have made, or offer whatever you have omitted which makes for your first opinion.Hyl.One great oversight I take to be this—that I did not sufficiently distinguish theobjectfrom thesensation808. Now, though this latter may not exist without the mind, yet it will not thence follow that the former cannot.Phil.What object do you mean? the object of the senses?Hyl.The same.Phil.It is then immediately perceived?Hyl.Right.Phil.Make me to understand the difference between what is immediately perceived and a sensation.Hyl.The sensation I take to be an act of the mind perceiving; besides which, there is something perceived; and this I call theobject. For example, there is red and yellow on that tulip. But then the act of perceiving those colours is in me only, and not in the tulip.Phil.What tulip do you speak of? Is it that which you see?Hyl.The same.[pg 406]Phil.And what do you see beside colour, figure, and extension809?Hyl.Nothing.Phil.What you would say then is that the red and yellow are coexistent with the extension; is it not?Hyl.That is not all; I would say they have a real existence without the mind, in some unthinking substance.Phil.That the colours are really in the tulip which I see is manifest. Neither can it be denied that this tulip may exist independent of your mind or mine; but, that any immediate object of the senses—that is, any idea, or combination of ideas—should exist in an unthinking substance, or exterior toallminds, is in itself an evident contradiction. Nor can I imagine how this follows from what you said just now, to wit, that the red and yellow were on the tulipyou saw, since you do not pretend toseethat unthinking substance.Hyl.You have an artful way, Philonous, of diverting our inquiry from the subject.Phil.I see you have no mind to be pressed that way. To return then to your distinction betweensensationandobject; if I take you right, you distinguish in every perception two things, the one an action of the mind, the other not.Hyl.True.Phil.And this action cannot exist in, or belong to, any unthinking thing810; but, whatever beside is implied in a perception may?Hyl.That is my meaning.Phil.So that if there was a perception without any act of the mind, it were possible such a perception should exist in an unthinking substance?Hyl.I grant it. But it is impossible there should be such a perception.Phil.When is the mind said to be active?Hyl.When it produces, puts an end to, or changes, anything.Phil.Can the mind produce, discontinue, or change anything, but by an act of the will?Hyl.It cannot.[pg 407]Phil.The mind therefore is to be accountedactivein its perceptions so far forth asvolitionis included in them?Hyl.It is.Phil.In plucking this flower I am active; because I do it by the motion of my hand, which was consequent upon my volition; so likewise in applying it to my nose. But is either of these smelling?Hyl.No.Phil.I act too in drawing the air through my nose; because my breathing so rather than otherwise is the effect of my volition. But neither can this be calledsmelling: for, if it were, I should smell every time I breathed in that manner?Hyl.True.Phil.Smelling then is somewhat consequent to all this?Hyl.It is.Phil.But I do not find my will concerned any farther. Whatever more there is—as that I perceive such a particular smell, or any smell at all—this is independent of my will, and therein I am altogether passive. Do you find it otherwise with you, Hylas?Hyl.No, the very same.Phil.Then, as to seeing, is it not in your power to open your eyes, or keep them shut; to turn them this or that way?Hyl.Without doubt.Phil.But, doth it in like manner depend onyourwill that in looking on this flower you perceivewhiterather than any other colour? Or, directing your open eyes towards yonder part of the heaven, can you avoid seeing the sun? Or is light or darkness the effect of your volition?Hyl.No, certainly.Phil.You are then in these respects altogether passive?Hyl.I am.Phil.Tell me now, whetherseeingconsists in perceiving light and colours, or in opening and turning the eyes?Hyl.Without doubt, in the former.Phil.Since therefore you are in the very perception of light and colours altogether passive, what is become of that action you were speaking of as an ingredient in every sensation? And, doth it not follow from your own concessions, that the perception of light and colours, including no action in it, may exist in an unperceiving substance? And is not this a plain contradiction?[pg 408]Hyl.I know not what to think of it.Phil.Besides, since you distinguish theactiveandpassivein every perception, you must do it in that of pain. But how is it possible that pain, be it as little active as you please, should exist in an unperceiving substance? In short, do but consider the point, and then confess ingenuously, whether light and colours, tastes, sounds, &c. are not all equally passions or sensations in the soul. You may indeed call themexternal objects, and give them in words what subsistence you please. But, examine your own thoughts, and then tell me whether it be not as I say?Hyl.I acknowledge, Philonous, that, upon a fair observation of what passes in my mind, I can discover nothing else but that I am a thinking being, affected with variety of sensations; neither is it possible to conceive how a sensation should exist in an unperceiving substance.—But then, on the other hand, when I look on sensible things in a different view, considering them as so many modes and qualities, I find it necessary to suppose amaterial substratum, without which they cannot be conceived to exist811.Phil.Material substratumcall you it? Pray, by which of your senses came you acquainted with that being?Hyl.It is not itself sensible; its modes and qualities only being perceived by the senses.Phil.I presume then it was by reflexion and reason you obtained the idea of it?Hyl.I do not pretend to any proper positiveideaof it. However, I conclude it exists, because qualities cannot be conceived to exist without a support.Phil.It seems then you have only a relativenotionof it, or that you conceive it not otherwise than by conceiving the relation it bears to sensible qualities?Hyl.Right.Phil.Be pleased therefore to let me know wherein that relation consists.[pg 409]Hyl.Is it not sufficiently expressed in the termsubstratum, orsubstance?Phil.If so, the wordsubstratumshould import that it is spread under the sensible qualities or accidents?Hyl.True.Phil.And consequently under extension?Hyl.I own it.Phil.It is therefore somewhat in its own nature entirely distinct from extension?Hyl.I tell you, extension is only a mode, and Matter is something that supports modes. And is it not evident the thing supported is different from the thing supporting?Phil.So that something distinct from, and exclusive of, extension is supposed to be thesubstratumof extension?Hyl.Just so.Phil.Answer me, Hylas. Can a thing be spread without extension? or is not the idea of extension necessarily included inspreading?Hyl.It is.Phil.Whatsoever therefore you suppose spread under anything must have in itself an extension distinct from the extension of that thing under which it is spread?Hyl.It must.Phil.Consequently, every corporeal substance, being thesubstratumof extension, must have in itself another extension, by which it is qualified to be asubstratum: and so on to infinity? And I ask whether this be not absurd in itself, and repugnant to what you granted just now, to wit, that thesubstratumwas something distinct from and exclusive of extension?Hyl.Aye but, Philonous, you take me wrong. I do not mean that Matter isspreadin a gross literal sense under extension. The wordsubstratumis used only to express in general the same thing withsubstance.Phil.Well then, let us examine the relation implied in the termsubstance. Is it not that it stands under accidents?Hyl.The very same.Phil.But, that one thing may stand under or support another, must it not be extended?Hyl.It must.Phil.Is not therefore this supposition liable to the same absurdity with the former?[pg 410]Hyl.You still take things in a strict literal sense. That is not fair, Philonous.Phil.I am not for imposing any sense on your words: you are at liberty to explain them as you please. Only, I beseech you, make me understand something by them. You tell me Matter supports or stands under accidents. How! is it as your legs support your body?Hyl.No; that is the literal sense.Phil.Pray let me know any sense, literal or not literal, that you understand it in.—How long must I wait for an answer, Hylas?Hyl.I declare I know not what to say. I once thought I understood well enough what was meant by Matter's supporting accidents. But now, the more I think on it the less can I comprehend it: in short I find that I know nothing of it.Phil.It seems then you have no idea at all, neither relative nor positive, of Matter; you know neither what it is in itself, nor what relation it bears to accidents?Hyl.I acknowledge it.Phil.And yet you asserted that you could not conceive how qualities or accidents should really exist, without conceiving at the same time a material support of them?Hyl.I did.Phil.That is to say, when you conceive therealexistence of qualities, you do withal conceive Something which you cannot conceive?Hyl.It was wrong, I own. But still I fear there is some fallacy or other. Pray what think you of this? It is just come into my head that the ground of all our mistake lies in your treating of each quality by itself. Now, I grant that each quality cannot singly subsist without the mind. Colour cannot without extension, neither can figure without some other sensible quality. But, as the several qualities united or blended together form entire sensible things, nothing hinders why such things may not be supposed to exist without the mind.Phil.Either, Hylas, you are jesting, or have a very bad memory. Though indeed we went through all the qualities by name one after another, yet my arguments, or rather your concessions, nowhere tended to prove that the Secondary Qualities did not subsist each alone by[pg 411]itself; but, that they were notat allwithout the mind. Indeed, in treating of figure and motion we concluded they could not exist without the mind, because it was impossible even in thought to separate them from all secondary qualities, so as to conceive them existing by themselves. But then this was not the only argument made use of upon that occasion. But (to pass by all that hath been hitherto said, and reckon it for nothing, if you will have it so) I am content to put the whole upon this issue. If you can conceive it possible for any mixture or combination of qualities, or any sensible object whatever, to exist without the mind, then I will grant it actually to be so.Hyl.If it comes to that the point will soon be decided. What more easy than to conceive a tree or house existing by itself, independent of, and unperceived by, any mind whatsoever? I do at this present time conceive them existing after that manner.Phil.How say you, Hylas, can you see a thing which is at the same time unseen?Hyl.No, that were a contradiction.Phil.Is it not as great a contradiction to talk ofconceivinga thing which isunconceived?Hyl.It is.Phil.The tree or house therefore which you think of is conceived by you?Hyl.How should it be otherwise?Phil.And what is conceived is surely in the mind?Hyl.Without question, that which is conceived is in the mind.Phil.How then came you to say, you conceived a house or tree existing independent and out of all minds whatsoever?Hyl.That was I own an oversight; but stay, let me consider what led me into it.—It is a pleasant mistake enough. As I was thinking of a tree in a solitary place, where no one was present to see it, methought that was to conceive a tree as existing unperceived or unthought of; not considering that I myself conceived it all the while. But now I plainly see that all I can do is to frame ideas in my own mind. I may indeed conceive in my own thoughts the idea of a tree, or a house, or a mountain, but[pg 412]that is all. And this is far from proving that I can conceive themexisting out of the minds of all Spirits.Phil.You acknowledge then that you cannot possibly conceive how any one corporeal sensible thing should exist otherwise than in a mind?Hyl.I do.Phil.And yet you will earnestly contend for the truth of that which you cannot so much as conceive?
Hyl.I own myself entirely satisfied, that they are all equally apparent, and that there is no such thing as colour really inhering in external bodies, but that it is altogether in the light. And what confirms me in this opinion is, that in proportion to the light colours are still more or less vivid; and if there be no light, then are there no colours perceived. Besides, allowing there are colours on external objects, yet, how is it possible for us to perceive them? For no external body affects the mind, unless it acts first on our organs of sense. But the only action of bodies is motion; and motion cannot be communicated otherwise than by impulse. A distant object therefore cannot act on the eye; nor consequently make itself or its properties perceivable to the soul. Whence it plainly follows that it is immediately some contiguous substance, which, operating on the eye, occasions a perception of colours: and such is light.Phil.How! is light then a substance?Hyl.I tell you, Philonous, external light is nothing but a thin fluid substance, whose minute particles being agitated with a brisk motion, and in various manners reflected from the different surfaces of outward objects to the eyes, communicate different motions to the optic nerves; which, being propagated to the brain, cause therein various impressions; and these are attended with the sensations of red, blue, yellow, &c.Phil.It seems then the light doth no more than shake the optic nerves.Hyl.Nothing else.Phil.And consequent to each particular motion of the nerves, the mind is affected with a sensation, which is some particular colour.Hyl.Right.Phil.And these sensations have no existence without the mind.Hyl.They have not.[pg 397]Phil.How then do you affirm that colours are in the light; since bylightyou understand a corporeal substance external to the mind?Hyl.Light and colours, as immediately perceived by us, I grant cannot exist without the mind. But in themselves they are only the motions and configurations of certain insensible particles of matter.Phil.Colours then, in the vulgar sense, or taken for the immediate objects of sight, cannot agree to any but a perceiving substance.Hyl.That is what I say.Phil.Well then, since you give up the point as to those sensible qualities which are alone thought colours by all mankind beside, you may hold what you please with regard to those invisible ones of the philosophers. It is not my business to dispute aboutthem; only I would advise you to bethink yourself, whether, considering the inquiry we are upon, it be prudent for you to affirm—the red and blue which we see are not real colours, but certain unknown motions and figures which no man ever did or can see are truly so. Are not these shocking notions, and are not they subject to as many ridiculous inferences, as those you were obliged to renounce before in the case of sounds?Hyl.I frankly own, Philonous, that it is in vain to stand out any longer. Colours, sounds, tastes, in a word all those termedsecondary qualities, have certainly no existence without the mind. But by this acknowledgment I must not be supposed to derogate anything from the reality of Matter, or external objects; seeing it is no more than several philosophers maintain796, who nevertheless are the farthest imaginable from denying Matter. For the clearer understanding of this, you must know sensible qualities are by philosophers divided intoPrimaryandSecondary797. The former are Extension, Figure, Solidity, Gravity, Motion, and Rest; and these they hold exist really in Bodies. The latter are those above enumerated; or,[pg 398]briefly,all sensible qualities beside the Primary; which they assert are only so many sensations or ideas existing nowhere but in the mind. But all this, I doubt not, you are apprised of. For my part, I have been a long time sensible there was such an opinion current among philosophers, but was never thoroughly convinced of its truth until now.Phil.You are still then of opinion thatextensionandfiguresare inherent in external unthinking substances?Hyl.I am.Phil.But what if the same arguments which are brought against Secondary Qualities will hold good against these also?Hyl.Why then I shall be obliged to think, they too exist only in the mind.Phil.Is it your opinion the very figure and extension which you perceive by sense exist in the outward object or material substance?Hyl.It is.Phil.Have all other animals as good grounds to think the same of the figure and extension which they see and feel?Hyl.Without doubt, if they have any thought at all.Phil.Answer me, Hylas. Think you the senses were bestowed upon all animals for their preservation and well-being in life? or were they given to men alone for this end?Hyl.I make no question but they have the same use in all other animals.Phil.If so, is it not necessary they should be enabled by them to perceive their own limbs, and those bodies which are capable of harming them?Hyl.Certainly.Phil.A mite therefore must be supposed to see his own foot, and things equal or even less than it, as bodies of some considerable dimension; though at the same time they appear to you scarce discernible, or at best as so many visible points798?Hyl.I cannot deny it.[pg 399]Phil.And to creatures less than the mite they will seem yet larger?Hyl.They will.Phil.Insomuch that what you can hardly discern will to another extremely minute animal appear as some huge mountain?Hyl.All this I grant.Phil.Can one and the same thing be at the same time in itself of different dimensions?Hyl.That were absurd to imagine.Phil.But, from what you have laid down it follows that both the extension by you perceived, and that perceived by the mite itself, as likewise all those perceived by lesser animals, are each of them the true extension of the mite's foot; that is to say, by your own principles you are led into an absurdity.Hyl.There seems to be some difficulty in the point.Phil.Again, have you not acknowledged that no real inherent property of any object can be changed without some change in the thing itself?Hyl.I have.Phil.But, as we approach to or recede from an object, the visible extension varies, being at one distance ten or a hundred times greater than at another. Doth it not therefore follow from hence likewise that it is not really inherent in the object?Hyl.I own I am at a loss what to think.Phil.Your judgment will soon be determined, if you will venture to think as freely concerning this quality as you have done concerning the rest. Was it not admitted as a good argument, that neither heat nor cold was in the water, because it seemed warm to one hand and cold to the other?Hyl.It was.Phil.Is it not the very same reasoning to conclude, there is no extension or figure in an object, because to one eye it shall seem little, smooth, and round, when at the same time it appears to the other, great, uneven, and angular?Hyl.The very same. But does this latter fact ever happen?Phil.You may at any time make the experiment, by[pg 400]looking with one eye bare, and with the other through a microscope.Hyl.I know not how to maintain it; and yet I am loath to give upextension, I see so many odd consequences following upon such a concession.Phil.Odd, say you? After the concessions already made, I hope you will stick at nothing for its oddness. [799But, on the other hand, should it not seem very odd, if the general reasoning which includes all other sensible qualities did not also include extension? If it be allowed that no idea, nor anything like an idea, can exist in an unperceiving substance, then surely it follows that no figure, or mode of extension, which we can either perceive, or imagine, or have any idea of, can be really inherent in Matter; not to mention the peculiar difficulty there must be in conceiving a material substance, prior to and distinct from extension, to be thesubstratumof extension. Be the sensible quality what it will—figure, or sound, or colour, it seems alike impossible it should subsist in that which doth not perceive it.]Hyl.I give up the point for the present, reserving still a right to retract my opinion, in case I shall hereafter discover any false step in my progress to it.Phil.That is a right you cannot be denied. Figures and extension being despatched, we proceed next tomotion. Can a real motion in any external body be at the same time both very swift and very slow?Hyl.It cannot.Phil.Is not the motion of a body swift in a reciprocal proportion to the time it takes up in describing any given space? Thus a body that describes a mile in an hour moves three times faster than it would in case it described only a mile in three hours.Hyl.I agree with you.Phil.And is not time measured by the succession of ideas in our minds?Hyl.It is.Phil.And is it not possible ideas should succeed one another twice as fast in your mind as they do in mine, or in that of some spirit of another kind?[pg 401]Hyl.I own it.Phil.Consequently the same body may to another seem to perform its motion over any space in half the time that it doth to you. And the same reasoning will hold as to any other proportion: that is to say, according to your principles (since the motions perceived are both really in the object) it is possible one and the same body shall be really moved the same way at once, both very swift and very slow. How is this consistent either with common sense, or with what you just now granted?Hyl.I have nothing to say to it.Phil.Then as forsolidity; either you do not mean any sensible quality by that word, and so it is beside our inquiry: or if you do, it must be either hardness or resistance. But both the one and the other are plainly relative to our senses: it being evident that what seems hard to one animal may appear soft to another, who hath greater force and firmness of limbs. Nor is it less plain that the resistance I feel is not in the body.Hyl.I own the verysensationof resistance, which is all you immediately perceive, is not in the body; but thecauseof that sensation is.Phil.But the causes of our sensations are not things immediately perceived, and therefore are not sensible. This point I thought had been already determined.Hyl.I own it was; but you will pardon me if I seem a little embarrassed: I know not how to quit my old notions.Phil.To help you out, do but consider that ifextensionbe once acknowledged to have no existence without the mind, the same must necessarily be granted of motion, solidity, and gravity; since they all evidently suppose extension. It is therefore superfluous to inquire particularly concerning each of them. In denying extension, you have denied them all to have any real existence800.Hyl.I wonder, Philonous, if what you say be true, why those philosophers who deny the Secondary Qualities any real existence should yet attribute it to the Primary. If there is no difference between them, how can this be accounted for?[pg 402]Phil.It is not my business to account for every opinion of the philosophers. But, among other reasons which may be assigned for this, it seems probable that pleasure and pain being rather annexed to the former than the latter may be one. Heat and cold, tastes and smells, have something more vividly pleasing or disagreeable than the ideas of extension, figure, and motion affect us with. And, it being too visibly absurd to hold that pain or pleasure can be in an unperceiving Substance, men are more easily weaned from believing the external existence of the Secondary than the Primary Qualities. You will be satisfied there is something in this, if you recollect the difference you made between an intense and more moderate degree of heat; allowing the one a real existence, while you denied it to the other. But, after all, there is no rational ground for that distinction; for, surely an indifferent sensation is as trulya sensationas one more pleasing or painful; and consequently should not any more than they be supposed to exist in an unthinking subject.Hyl.It is just come into my head, Philonous, that I have somewhere heard of a distinction between absolute and sensible extension801. Now, though it be acknowledged thatgreatandsmall, consisting merely in the relation which other extended beings have to the parts of our own bodies, do not really inhere in the substances themselves; yet nothing obliges us to hold the same with regard toabsolute extension, which is something abstracted fromgreatandsmall, from this or that particular magnitude or figure. So likewise as to motion;swiftandsloware altogether relative to the succession of ideas in our own minds. But, it doth not follow, because those modifications of motion exist not without the mind, that therefore absolute motion abstracted from them doth not.Phil.Pray what is it that distinguishes one motion, or one part of extension, from another? Is it not something sensible, as some degree of swiftness or slowness, some certain magnitude or figure peculiar to each?[pg 403]Hyl.I think so.Phil.These qualities, therefore, stripped of all sensible properties, are without all specific and numerical differences, as the schools call them.Hyl.They are.Phil.That is to say, they are extension in general, and motion in general.Hyl.Let it be so.Phil.But it is a universally received maxim thatEverything which exists is particular802. How then can motion in general, or extension in general, exist in any corporeal substance?Hyl.I will take time to solve your difficulty.Phil.But I think the point may be speedily decided. Without doubt you can tell whether you are able to frame this or that idea. Now I am content to put our dispute on this issue. If you can frame in your thoughts a distinctabstract ideaof motion or extension, divested of all those sensible modes, as swift and slow, great and small, round and square, and the like, which are acknowledged to exist only in the mind, I will then yield the point you contend for. But if you cannot, it will be unreasonable on your side to insist any longer upon what you have no notion803of.Hyl.To confess ingenuously, I cannot.Phil.Can you even separate the ideas of extension and motion from the ideas of all those qualities which they who make the distinction termsecondary?Hyl.What! is it not an easy matter to consider extension and motion by themselves, abstracted from all other sensible qualities? Pray how do the mathematicians treat of them?Phil.I acknowledge, Hylas, it is not difficult to form general propositions and reasonings about those qualities, without mentioning any other; and, in this sense, to consider or treat of them abstractedly804. But, how doth it follow that, because I can pronounce the wordmotionby itself, I can form the idea of it in my mind exclusive[pg 404]of body? or, because theorems may be made of extension and figures, without any mention ofgreatorsmall, or any other sensible mode or quality, that therefore it is possible such an abstract idea of extension, without any particular size or figure, or sensible quality805, should be distinctly formed, and apprehended by the mind? Mathematicians treat of quantity, without regarding what other sensible qualities it is attended with, as being altogether indifferent to their demonstrations. But, when laying aside the words, they contemplate the bare ideas, I believe you will find, they are not the pure abstracted ideas of extension.Hyl.But what say you topure intellect? May not abstracted ideas be framed by that faculty?Phil.Since I cannot frame abstract ideas at all, it is plain I cannot frame them by the help ofpure intellect; whatsoever faculty you understand by those words806. Besides, not to inquire into the nature of pure intellect and its spiritual objects, asvirtue,reason,God, or the like, thus much seems manifest—that sensible things are only to be perceived by sense, or represented by the imagination. Figures, therefore, and extension, being originally perceived by sense, do not belong to pure intellect: but, for your farther satisfaction, try if you can frame the idea of any figure, abstracted from all particularities of size, or even from other sensible qualities.Hyl.Let me think a little——I do not find that I can.Phil.And can you think it possible that should really exist in nature which implies a repugnancy in its conception?Hyl.By no means.Phil.Since therefore it is impossible even for the mind to disunite the ideas of extension and motion from all other sensible qualities, doth it not follow, that where the one exist there necessarily the other exist likewise?Hyl.It should seem so.[pg 405]Phil.Consequently, the very same arguments which you admitted as conclusive against the Secondary Qualities are, without any farther application of force, against the Primary too. Besides, if you will trust your senses, is it not plain all sensible qualities coexist, or to them appear as being in the same place? Do they ever represent a motion, or figure, as being divested of all other visible and tangible qualities?Hyl.You need say no more on this head. I am free to own, if there be no secret error or oversight in our proceedings hitherto, thatallsensible qualities are alike to be denied existence without the mind807. But, my fear is that I have been too liberal in my former concessions, or overlooked some fallacy or other. In short, I did not take time to think.Phil.For that matter, Hylas, you may take what time you please in reviewing the progress of our inquiry. You are at liberty to recover any slips you might have made, or offer whatever you have omitted which makes for your first opinion.Hyl.One great oversight I take to be this—that I did not sufficiently distinguish theobjectfrom thesensation808. Now, though this latter may not exist without the mind, yet it will not thence follow that the former cannot.Phil.What object do you mean? the object of the senses?Hyl.The same.Phil.It is then immediately perceived?Hyl.Right.Phil.Make me to understand the difference between what is immediately perceived and a sensation.Hyl.The sensation I take to be an act of the mind perceiving; besides which, there is something perceived; and this I call theobject. For example, there is red and yellow on that tulip. But then the act of perceiving those colours is in me only, and not in the tulip.Phil.What tulip do you speak of? Is it that which you see?Hyl.The same.[pg 406]Phil.And what do you see beside colour, figure, and extension809?Hyl.Nothing.Phil.What you would say then is that the red and yellow are coexistent with the extension; is it not?Hyl.That is not all; I would say they have a real existence without the mind, in some unthinking substance.Phil.That the colours are really in the tulip which I see is manifest. Neither can it be denied that this tulip may exist independent of your mind or mine; but, that any immediate object of the senses—that is, any idea, or combination of ideas—should exist in an unthinking substance, or exterior toallminds, is in itself an evident contradiction. Nor can I imagine how this follows from what you said just now, to wit, that the red and yellow were on the tulipyou saw, since you do not pretend toseethat unthinking substance.Hyl.You have an artful way, Philonous, of diverting our inquiry from the subject.Phil.I see you have no mind to be pressed that way. To return then to your distinction betweensensationandobject; if I take you right, you distinguish in every perception two things, the one an action of the mind, the other not.Hyl.True.Phil.And this action cannot exist in, or belong to, any unthinking thing810; but, whatever beside is implied in a perception may?Hyl.That is my meaning.Phil.So that if there was a perception without any act of the mind, it were possible such a perception should exist in an unthinking substance?Hyl.I grant it. But it is impossible there should be such a perception.Phil.When is the mind said to be active?Hyl.When it produces, puts an end to, or changes, anything.Phil.Can the mind produce, discontinue, or change anything, but by an act of the will?Hyl.It cannot.[pg 407]Phil.The mind therefore is to be accountedactivein its perceptions so far forth asvolitionis included in them?Hyl.It is.Phil.In plucking this flower I am active; because I do it by the motion of my hand, which was consequent upon my volition; so likewise in applying it to my nose. But is either of these smelling?Hyl.No.Phil.I act too in drawing the air through my nose; because my breathing so rather than otherwise is the effect of my volition. But neither can this be calledsmelling: for, if it were, I should smell every time I breathed in that manner?Hyl.True.Phil.Smelling then is somewhat consequent to all this?Hyl.It is.Phil.But I do not find my will concerned any farther. Whatever more there is—as that I perceive such a particular smell, or any smell at all—this is independent of my will, and therein I am altogether passive. Do you find it otherwise with you, Hylas?Hyl.No, the very same.Phil.Then, as to seeing, is it not in your power to open your eyes, or keep them shut; to turn them this or that way?Hyl.Without doubt.Phil.But, doth it in like manner depend onyourwill that in looking on this flower you perceivewhiterather than any other colour? Or, directing your open eyes towards yonder part of the heaven, can you avoid seeing the sun? Or is light or darkness the effect of your volition?Hyl.No, certainly.Phil.You are then in these respects altogether passive?Hyl.I am.Phil.Tell me now, whetherseeingconsists in perceiving light and colours, or in opening and turning the eyes?Hyl.Without doubt, in the former.Phil.Since therefore you are in the very perception of light and colours altogether passive, what is become of that action you were speaking of as an ingredient in every sensation? And, doth it not follow from your own concessions, that the perception of light and colours, including no action in it, may exist in an unperceiving substance? And is not this a plain contradiction?[pg 408]Hyl.I know not what to think of it.Phil.Besides, since you distinguish theactiveandpassivein every perception, you must do it in that of pain. But how is it possible that pain, be it as little active as you please, should exist in an unperceiving substance? In short, do but consider the point, and then confess ingenuously, whether light and colours, tastes, sounds, &c. are not all equally passions or sensations in the soul. You may indeed call themexternal objects, and give them in words what subsistence you please. But, examine your own thoughts, and then tell me whether it be not as I say?Hyl.I acknowledge, Philonous, that, upon a fair observation of what passes in my mind, I can discover nothing else but that I am a thinking being, affected with variety of sensations; neither is it possible to conceive how a sensation should exist in an unperceiving substance.—But then, on the other hand, when I look on sensible things in a different view, considering them as so many modes and qualities, I find it necessary to suppose amaterial substratum, without which they cannot be conceived to exist811.Phil.Material substratumcall you it? Pray, by which of your senses came you acquainted with that being?Hyl.It is not itself sensible; its modes and qualities only being perceived by the senses.Phil.I presume then it was by reflexion and reason you obtained the idea of it?Hyl.I do not pretend to any proper positiveideaof it. However, I conclude it exists, because qualities cannot be conceived to exist without a support.Phil.It seems then you have only a relativenotionof it, or that you conceive it not otherwise than by conceiving the relation it bears to sensible qualities?Hyl.Right.Phil.Be pleased therefore to let me know wherein that relation consists.[pg 409]Hyl.Is it not sufficiently expressed in the termsubstratum, orsubstance?Phil.If so, the wordsubstratumshould import that it is spread under the sensible qualities or accidents?Hyl.True.Phil.And consequently under extension?Hyl.I own it.Phil.It is therefore somewhat in its own nature entirely distinct from extension?Hyl.I tell you, extension is only a mode, and Matter is something that supports modes. And is it not evident the thing supported is different from the thing supporting?Phil.So that something distinct from, and exclusive of, extension is supposed to be thesubstratumof extension?Hyl.Just so.Phil.Answer me, Hylas. Can a thing be spread without extension? or is not the idea of extension necessarily included inspreading?Hyl.It is.Phil.Whatsoever therefore you suppose spread under anything must have in itself an extension distinct from the extension of that thing under which it is spread?Hyl.It must.Phil.Consequently, every corporeal substance, being thesubstratumof extension, must have in itself another extension, by which it is qualified to be asubstratum: and so on to infinity? And I ask whether this be not absurd in itself, and repugnant to what you granted just now, to wit, that thesubstratumwas something distinct from and exclusive of extension?Hyl.Aye but, Philonous, you take me wrong. I do not mean that Matter isspreadin a gross literal sense under extension. The wordsubstratumis used only to express in general the same thing withsubstance.Phil.Well then, let us examine the relation implied in the termsubstance. Is it not that it stands under accidents?Hyl.The very same.Phil.But, that one thing may stand under or support another, must it not be extended?Hyl.It must.Phil.Is not therefore this supposition liable to the same absurdity with the former?[pg 410]Hyl.You still take things in a strict literal sense. That is not fair, Philonous.Phil.I am not for imposing any sense on your words: you are at liberty to explain them as you please. Only, I beseech you, make me understand something by them. You tell me Matter supports or stands under accidents. How! is it as your legs support your body?Hyl.No; that is the literal sense.Phil.Pray let me know any sense, literal or not literal, that you understand it in.—How long must I wait for an answer, Hylas?Hyl.I declare I know not what to say. I once thought I understood well enough what was meant by Matter's supporting accidents. But now, the more I think on it the less can I comprehend it: in short I find that I know nothing of it.Phil.It seems then you have no idea at all, neither relative nor positive, of Matter; you know neither what it is in itself, nor what relation it bears to accidents?Hyl.I acknowledge it.Phil.And yet you asserted that you could not conceive how qualities or accidents should really exist, without conceiving at the same time a material support of them?Hyl.I did.Phil.That is to say, when you conceive therealexistence of qualities, you do withal conceive Something which you cannot conceive?Hyl.It was wrong, I own. But still I fear there is some fallacy or other. Pray what think you of this? It is just come into my head that the ground of all our mistake lies in your treating of each quality by itself. Now, I grant that each quality cannot singly subsist without the mind. Colour cannot without extension, neither can figure without some other sensible quality. But, as the several qualities united or blended together form entire sensible things, nothing hinders why such things may not be supposed to exist without the mind.Phil.Either, Hylas, you are jesting, or have a very bad memory. Though indeed we went through all the qualities by name one after another, yet my arguments, or rather your concessions, nowhere tended to prove that the Secondary Qualities did not subsist each alone by[pg 411]itself; but, that they were notat allwithout the mind. Indeed, in treating of figure and motion we concluded they could not exist without the mind, because it was impossible even in thought to separate them from all secondary qualities, so as to conceive them existing by themselves. But then this was not the only argument made use of upon that occasion. But (to pass by all that hath been hitherto said, and reckon it for nothing, if you will have it so) I am content to put the whole upon this issue. If you can conceive it possible for any mixture or combination of qualities, or any sensible object whatever, to exist without the mind, then I will grant it actually to be so.Hyl.If it comes to that the point will soon be decided. What more easy than to conceive a tree or house existing by itself, independent of, and unperceived by, any mind whatsoever? I do at this present time conceive them existing after that manner.Phil.How say you, Hylas, can you see a thing which is at the same time unseen?Hyl.No, that were a contradiction.Phil.Is it not as great a contradiction to talk ofconceivinga thing which isunconceived?Hyl.It is.Phil.The tree or house therefore which you think of is conceived by you?Hyl.How should it be otherwise?Phil.And what is conceived is surely in the mind?Hyl.Without question, that which is conceived is in the mind.Phil.How then came you to say, you conceived a house or tree existing independent and out of all minds whatsoever?Hyl.That was I own an oversight; but stay, let me consider what led me into it.—It is a pleasant mistake enough. As I was thinking of a tree in a solitary place, where no one was present to see it, methought that was to conceive a tree as existing unperceived or unthought of; not considering that I myself conceived it all the while. But now I plainly see that all I can do is to frame ideas in my own mind. I may indeed conceive in my own thoughts the idea of a tree, or a house, or a mountain, but[pg 412]that is all. And this is far from proving that I can conceive themexisting out of the minds of all Spirits.Phil.You acknowledge then that you cannot possibly conceive how any one corporeal sensible thing should exist otherwise than in a mind?Hyl.I do.Phil.And yet you will earnestly contend for the truth of that which you cannot so much as conceive?
Hyl.I own myself entirely satisfied, that they are all equally apparent, and that there is no such thing as colour really inhering in external bodies, but that it is altogether in the light. And what confirms me in this opinion is, that in proportion to the light colours are still more or less vivid; and if there be no light, then are there no colours perceived. Besides, allowing there are colours on external objects, yet, how is it possible for us to perceive them? For no external body affects the mind, unless it acts first on our organs of sense. But the only action of bodies is motion; and motion cannot be communicated otherwise than by impulse. A distant object therefore cannot act on the eye; nor consequently make itself or its properties perceivable to the soul. Whence it plainly follows that it is immediately some contiguous substance, which, operating on the eye, occasions a perception of colours: and such is light.Phil.How! is light then a substance?Hyl.I tell you, Philonous, external light is nothing but a thin fluid substance, whose minute particles being agitated with a brisk motion, and in various manners reflected from the different surfaces of outward objects to the eyes, communicate different motions to the optic nerves; which, being propagated to the brain, cause therein various impressions; and these are attended with the sensations of red, blue, yellow, &c.Phil.It seems then the light doth no more than shake the optic nerves.Hyl.Nothing else.Phil.And consequent to each particular motion of the nerves, the mind is affected with a sensation, which is some particular colour.Hyl.Right.Phil.And these sensations have no existence without the mind.Hyl.They have not.[pg 397]Phil.How then do you affirm that colours are in the light; since bylightyou understand a corporeal substance external to the mind?Hyl.Light and colours, as immediately perceived by us, I grant cannot exist without the mind. But in themselves they are only the motions and configurations of certain insensible particles of matter.Phil.Colours then, in the vulgar sense, or taken for the immediate objects of sight, cannot agree to any but a perceiving substance.Hyl.That is what I say.Phil.Well then, since you give up the point as to those sensible qualities which are alone thought colours by all mankind beside, you may hold what you please with regard to those invisible ones of the philosophers. It is not my business to dispute aboutthem; only I would advise you to bethink yourself, whether, considering the inquiry we are upon, it be prudent for you to affirm—the red and blue which we see are not real colours, but certain unknown motions and figures which no man ever did or can see are truly so. Are not these shocking notions, and are not they subject to as many ridiculous inferences, as those you were obliged to renounce before in the case of sounds?Hyl.I frankly own, Philonous, that it is in vain to stand out any longer. Colours, sounds, tastes, in a word all those termedsecondary qualities, have certainly no existence without the mind. But by this acknowledgment I must not be supposed to derogate anything from the reality of Matter, or external objects; seeing it is no more than several philosophers maintain796, who nevertheless are the farthest imaginable from denying Matter. For the clearer understanding of this, you must know sensible qualities are by philosophers divided intoPrimaryandSecondary797. The former are Extension, Figure, Solidity, Gravity, Motion, and Rest; and these they hold exist really in Bodies. The latter are those above enumerated; or,[pg 398]briefly,all sensible qualities beside the Primary; which they assert are only so many sensations or ideas existing nowhere but in the mind. But all this, I doubt not, you are apprised of. For my part, I have been a long time sensible there was such an opinion current among philosophers, but was never thoroughly convinced of its truth until now.Phil.You are still then of opinion thatextensionandfiguresare inherent in external unthinking substances?Hyl.I am.Phil.But what if the same arguments which are brought against Secondary Qualities will hold good against these also?Hyl.Why then I shall be obliged to think, they too exist only in the mind.Phil.Is it your opinion the very figure and extension which you perceive by sense exist in the outward object or material substance?Hyl.It is.Phil.Have all other animals as good grounds to think the same of the figure and extension which they see and feel?Hyl.Without doubt, if they have any thought at all.Phil.Answer me, Hylas. Think you the senses were bestowed upon all animals for their preservation and well-being in life? or were they given to men alone for this end?Hyl.I make no question but they have the same use in all other animals.Phil.If so, is it not necessary they should be enabled by them to perceive their own limbs, and those bodies which are capable of harming them?Hyl.Certainly.Phil.A mite therefore must be supposed to see his own foot, and things equal or even less than it, as bodies of some considerable dimension; though at the same time they appear to you scarce discernible, or at best as so many visible points798?Hyl.I cannot deny it.[pg 399]Phil.And to creatures less than the mite they will seem yet larger?Hyl.They will.Phil.Insomuch that what you can hardly discern will to another extremely minute animal appear as some huge mountain?Hyl.All this I grant.Phil.Can one and the same thing be at the same time in itself of different dimensions?Hyl.That were absurd to imagine.Phil.But, from what you have laid down it follows that both the extension by you perceived, and that perceived by the mite itself, as likewise all those perceived by lesser animals, are each of them the true extension of the mite's foot; that is to say, by your own principles you are led into an absurdity.Hyl.There seems to be some difficulty in the point.Phil.Again, have you not acknowledged that no real inherent property of any object can be changed without some change in the thing itself?Hyl.I have.Phil.But, as we approach to or recede from an object, the visible extension varies, being at one distance ten or a hundred times greater than at another. Doth it not therefore follow from hence likewise that it is not really inherent in the object?Hyl.I own I am at a loss what to think.Phil.Your judgment will soon be determined, if you will venture to think as freely concerning this quality as you have done concerning the rest. Was it not admitted as a good argument, that neither heat nor cold was in the water, because it seemed warm to one hand and cold to the other?Hyl.It was.Phil.Is it not the very same reasoning to conclude, there is no extension or figure in an object, because to one eye it shall seem little, smooth, and round, when at the same time it appears to the other, great, uneven, and angular?Hyl.The very same. But does this latter fact ever happen?Phil.You may at any time make the experiment, by[pg 400]looking with one eye bare, and with the other through a microscope.Hyl.I know not how to maintain it; and yet I am loath to give upextension, I see so many odd consequences following upon such a concession.Phil.Odd, say you? After the concessions already made, I hope you will stick at nothing for its oddness. [799But, on the other hand, should it not seem very odd, if the general reasoning which includes all other sensible qualities did not also include extension? If it be allowed that no idea, nor anything like an idea, can exist in an unperceiving substance, then surely it follows that no figure, or mode of extension, which we can either perceive, or imagine, or have any idea of, can be really inherent in Matter; not to mention the peculiar difficulty there must be in conceiving a material substance, prior to and distinct from extension, to be thesubstratumof extension. Be the sensible quality what it will—figure, or sound, or colour, it seems alike impossible it should subsist in that which doth not perceive it.]Hyl.I give up the point for the present, reserving still a right to retract my opinion, in case I shall hereafter discover any false step in my progress to it.Phil.That is a right you cannot be denied. Figures and extension being despatched, we proceed next tomotion. Can a real motion in any external body be at the same time both very swift and very slow?Hyl.It cannot.Phil.Is not the motion of a body swift in a reciprocal proportion to the time it takes up in describing any given space? Thus a body that describes a mile in an hour moves three times faster than it would in case it described only a mile in three hours.Hyl.I agree with you.Phil.And is not time measured by the succession of ideas in our minds?Hyl.It is.Phil.And is it not possible ideas should succeed one another twice as fast in your mind as they do in mine, or in that of some spirit of another kind?[pg 401]Hyl.I own it.Phil.Consequently the same body may to another seem to perform its motion over any space in half the time that it doth to you. And the same reasoning will hold as to any other proportion: that is to say, according to your principles (since the motions perceived are both really in the object) it is possible one and the same body shall be really moved the same way at once, both very swift and very slow. How is this consistent either with common sense, or with what you just now granted?Hyl.I have nothing to say to it.Phil.Then as forsolidity; either you do not mean any sensible quality by that word, and so it is beside our inquiry: or if you do, it must be either hardness or resistance. But both the one and the other are plainly relative to our senses: it being evident that what seems hard to one animal may appear soft to another, who hath greater force and firmness of limbs. Nor is it less plain that the resistance I feel is not in the body.Hyl.I own the verysensationof resistance, which is all you immediately perceive, is not in the body; but thecauseof that sensation is.Phil.But the causes of our sensations are not things immediately perceived, and therefore are not sensible. This point I thought had been already determined.Hyl.I own it was; but you will pardon me if I seem a little embarrassed: I know not how to quit my old notions.Phil.To help you out, do but consider that ifextensionbe once acknowledged to have no existence without the mind, the same must necessarily be granted of motion, solidity, and gravity; since they all evidently suppose extension. It is therefore superfluous to inquire particularly concerning each of them. In denying extension, you have denied them all to have any real existence800.Hyl.I wonder, Philonous, if what you say be true, why those philosophers who deny the Secondary Qualities any real existence should yet attribute it to the Primary. If there is no difference between them, how can this be accounted for?[pg 402]Phil.It is not my business to account for every opinion of the philosophers. But, among other reasons which may be assigned for this, it seems probable that pleasure and pain being rather annexed to the former than the latter may be one. Heat and cold, tastes and smells, have something more vividly pleasing or disagreeable than the ideas of extension, figure, and motion affect us with. And, it being too visibly absurd to hold that pain or pleasure can be in an unperceiving Substance, men are more easily weaned from believing the external existence of the Secondary than the Primary Qualities. You will be satisfied there is something in this, if you recollect the difference you made between an intense and more moderate degree of heat; allowing the one a real existence, while you denied it to the other. But, after all, there is no rational ground for that distinction; for, surely an indifferent sensation is as trulya sensationas one more pleasing or painful; and consequently should not any more than they be supposed to exist in an unthinking subject.Hyl.It is just come into my head, Philonous, that I have somewhere heard of a distinction between absolute and sensible extension801. Now, though it be acknowledged thatgreatandsmall, consisting merely in the relation which other extended beings have to the parts of our own bodies, do not really inhere in the substances themselves; yet nothing obliges us to hold the same with regard toabsolute extension, which is something abstracted fromgreatandsmall, from this or that particular magnitude or figure. So likewise as to motion;swiftandsloware altogether relative to the succession of ideas in our own minds. But, it doth not follow, because those modifications of motion exist not without the mind, that therefore absolute motion abstracted from them doth not.Phil.Pray what is it that distinguishes one motion, or one part of extension, from another? Is it not something sensible, as some degree of swiftness or slowness, some certain magnitude or figure peculiar to each?[pg 403]Hyl.I think so.Phil.These qualities, therefore, stripped of all sensible properties, are without all specific and numerical differences, as the schools call them.Hyl.They are.Phil.That is to say, they are extension in general, and motion in general.Hyl.Let it be so.Phil.But it is a universally received maxim thatEverything which exists is particular802. How then can motion in general, or extension in general, exist in any corporeal substance?Hyl.I will take time to solve your difficulty.Phil.But I think the point may be speedily decided. Without doubt you can tell whether you are able to frame this or that idea. Now I am content to put our dispute on this issue. If you can frame in your thoughts a distinctabstract ideaof motion or extension, divested of all those sensible modes, as swift and slow, great and small, round and square, and the like, which are acknowledged to exist only in the mind, I will then yield the point you contend for. But if you cannot, it will be unreasonable on your side to insist any longer upon what you have no notion803of.Hyl.To confess ingenuously, I cannot.Phil.Can you even separate the ideas of extension and motion from the ideas of all those qualities which they who make the distinction termsecondary?Hyl.What! is it not an easy matter to consider extension and motion by themselves, abstracted from all other sensible qualities? Pray how do the mathematicians treat of them?Phil.I acknowledge, Hylas, it is not difficult to form general propositions and reasonings about those qualities, without mentioning any other; and, in this sense, to consider or treat of them abstractedly804. But, how doth it follow that, because I can pronounce the wordmotionby itself, I can form the idea of it in my mind exclusive[pg 404]of body? or, because theorems may be made of extension and figures, without any mention ofgreatorsmall, or any other sensible mode or quality, that therefore it is possible such an abstract idea of extension, without any particular size or figure, or sensible quality805, should be distinctly formed, and apprehended by the mind? Mathematicians treat of quantity, without regarding what other sensible qualities it is attended with, as being altogether indifferent to their demonstrations. But, when laying aside the words, they contemplate the bare ideas, I believe you will find, they are not the pure abstracted ideas of extension.Hyl.But what say you topure intellect? May not abstracted ideas be framed by that faculty?Phil.Since I cannot frame abstract ideas at all, it is plain I cannot frame them by the help ofpure intellect; whatsoever faculty you understand by those words806. Besides, not to inquire into the nature of pure intellect and its spiritual objects, asvirtue,reason,God, or the like, thus much seems manifest—that sensible things are only to be perceived by sense, or represented by the imagination. Figures, therefore, and extension, being originally perceived by sense, do not belong to pure intellect: but, for your farther satisfaction, try if you can frame the idea of any figure, abstracted from all particularities of size, or even from other sensible qualities.Hyl.Let me think a little——I do not find that I can.Phil.And can you think it possible that should really exist in nature which implies a repugnancy in its conception?Hyl.By no means.Phil.Since therefore it is impossible even for the mind to disunite the ideas of extension and motion from all other sensible qualities, doth it not follow, that where the one exist there necessarily the other exist likewise?Hyl.It should seem so.[pg 405]Phil.Consequently, the very same arguments which you admitted as conclusive against the Secondary Qualities are, without any farther application of force, against the Primary too. Besides, if you will trust your senses, is it not plain all sensible qualities coexist, or to them appear as being in the same place? Do they ever represent a motion, or figure, as being divested of all other visible and tangible qualities?Hyl.You need say no more on this head. I am free to own, if there be no secret error or oversight in our proceedings hitherto, thatallsensible qualities are alike to be denied existence without the mind807. But, my fear is that I have been too liberal in my former concessions, or overlooked some fallacy or other. In short, I did not take time to think.Phil.For that matter, Hylas, you may take what time you please in reviewing the progress of our inquiry. You are at liberty to recover any slips you might have made, or offer whatever you have omitted which makes for your first opinion.Hyl.One great oversight I take to be this—that I did not sufficiently distinguish theobjectfrom thesensation808. Now, though this latter may not exist without the mind, yet it will not thence follow that the former cannot.Phil.What object do you mean? the object of the senses?Hyl.The same.Phil.It is then immediately perceived?Hyl.Right.Phil.Make me to understand the difference between what is immediately perceived and a sensation.Hyl.The sensation I take to be an act of the mind perceiving; besides which, there is something perceived; and this I call theobject. For example, there is red and yellow on that tulip. But then the act of perceiving those colours is in me only, and not in the tulip.Phil.What tulip do you speak of? Is it that which you see?Hyl.The same.[pg 406]Phil.And what do you see beside colour, figure, and extension809?Hyl.Nothing.Phil.What you would say then is that the red and yellow are coexistent with the extension; is it not?Hyl.That is not all; I would say they have a real existence without the mind, in some unthinking substance.Phil.That the colours are really in the tulip which I see is manifest. Neither can it be denied that this tulip may exist independent of your mind or mine; but, that any immediate object of the senses—that is, any idea, or combination of ideas—should exist in an unthinking substance, or exterior toallminds, is in itself an evident contradiction. Nor can I imagine how this follows from what you said just now, to wit, that the red and yellow were on the tulipyou saw, since you do not pretend toseethat unthinking substance.Hyl.You have an artful way, Philonous, of diverting our inquiry from the subject.Phil.I see you have no mind to be pressed that way. To return then to your distinction betweensensationandobject; if I take you right, you distinguish in every perception two things, the one an action of the mind, the other not.Hyl.True.Phil.And this action cannot exist in, or belong to, any unthinking thing810; but, whatever beside is implied in a perception may?Hyl.That is my meaning.Phil.So that if there was a perception without any act of the mind, it were possible such a perception should exist in an unthinking substance?Hyl.I grant it. But it is impossible there should be such a perception.Phil.When is the mind said to be active?Hyl.When it produces, puts an end to, or changes, anything.Phil.Can the mind produce, discontinue, or change anything, but by an act of the will?Hyl.It cannot.[pg 407]Phil.The mind therefore is to be accountedactivein its perceptions so far forth asvolitionis included in them?Hyl.It is.Phil.In plucking this flower I am active; because I do it by the motion of my hand, which was consequent upon my volition; so likewise in applying it to my nose. But is either of these smelling?Hyl.No.Phil.I act too in drawing the air through my nose; because my breathing so rather than otherwise is the effect of my volition. But neither can this be calledsmelling: for, if it were, I should smell every time I breathed in that manner?Hyl.True.Phil.Smelling then is somewhat consequent to all this?Hyl.It is.Phil.But I do not find my will concerned any farther. Whatever more there is—as that I perceive such a particular smell, or any smell at all—this is independent of my will, and therein I am altogether passive. Do you find it otherwise with you, Hylas?Hyl.No, the very same.Phil.Then, as to seeing, is it not in your power to open your eyes, or keep them shut; to turn them this or that way?Hyl.Without doubt.Phil.But, doth it in like manner depend onyourwill that in looking on this flower you perceivewhiterather than any other colour? Or, directing your open eyes towards yonder part of the heaven, can you avoid seeing the sun? Or is light or darkness the effect of your volition?Hyl.No, certainly.Phil.You are then in these respects altogether passive?Hyl.I am.Phil.Tell me now, whetherseeingconsists in perceiving light and colours, or in opening and turning the eyes?Hyl.Without doubt, in the former.Phil.Since therefore you are in the very perception of light and colours altogether passive, what is become of that action you were speaking of as an ingredient in every sensation? And, doth it not follow from your own concessions, that the perception of light and colours, including no action in it, may exist in an unperceiving substance? And is not this a plain contradiction?[pg 408]Hyl.I know not what to think of it.Phil.Besides, since you distinguish theactiveandpassivein every perception, you must do it in that of pain. But how is it possible that pain, be it as little active as you please, should exist in an unperceiving substance? In short, do but consider the point, and then confess ingenuously, whether light and colours, tastes, sounds, &c. are not all equally passions or sensations in the soul. You may indeed call themexternal objects, and give them in words what subsistence you please. But, examine your own thoughts, and then tell me whether it be not as I say?Hyl.I acknowledge, Philonous, that, upon a fair observation of what passes in my mind, I can discover nothing else but that I am a thinking being, affected with variety of sensations; neither is it possible to conceive how a sensation should exist in an unperceiving substance.—But then, on the other hand, when I look on sensible things in a different view, considering them as so many modes and qualities, I find it necessary to suppose amaterial substratum, without which they cannot be conceived to exist811.Phil.Material substratumcall you it? Pray, by which of your senses came you acquainted with that being?Hyl.It is not itself sensible; its modes and qualities only being perceived by the senses.Phil.I presume then it was by reflexion and reason you obtained the idea of it?Hyl.I do not pretend to any proper positiveideaof it. However, I conclude it exists, because qualities cannot be conceived to exist without a support.Phil.It seems then you have only a relativenotionof it, or that you conceive it not otherwise than by conceiving the relation it bears to sensible qualities?Hyl.Right.Phil.Be pleased therefore to let me know wherein that relation consists.[pg 409]Hyl.Is it not sufficiently expressed in the termsubstratum, orsubstance?Phil.If so, the wordsubstratumshould import that it is spread under the sensible qualities or accidents?Hyl.True.Phil.And consequently under extension?Hyl.I own it.Phil.It is therefore somewhat in its own nature entirely distinct from extension?Hyl.I tell you, extension is only a mode, and Matter is something that supports modes. And is it not evident the thing supported is different from the thing supporting?Phil.So that something distinct from, and exclusive of, extension is supposed to be thesubstratumof extension?Hyl.Just so.Phil.Answer me, Hylas. Can a thing be spread without extension? or is not the idea of extension necessarily included inspreading?Hyl.It is.Phil.Whatsoever therefore you suppose spread under anything must have in itself an extension distinct from the extension of that thing under which it is spread?Hyl.It must.Phil.Consequently, every corporeal substance, being thesubstratumof extension, must have in itself another extension, by which it is qualified to be asubstratum: and so on to infinity? And I ask whether this be not absurd in itself, and repugnant to what you granted just now, to wit, that thesubstratumwas something distinct from and exclusive of extension?Hyl.Aye but, Philonous, you take me wrong. I do not mean that Matter isspreadin a gross literal sense under extension. The wordsubstratumis used only to express in general the same thing withsubstance.Phil.Well then, let us examine the relation implied in the termsubstance. Is it not that it stands under accidents?Hyl.The very same.Phil.But, that one thing may stand under or support another, must it not be extended?Hyl.It must.Phil.Is not therefore this supposition liable to the same absurdity with the former?[pg 410]Hyl.You still take things in a strict literal sense. That is not fair, Philonous.Phil.I am not for imposing any sense on your words: you are at liberty to explain them as you please. Only, I beseech you, make me understand something by them. You tell me Matter supports or stands under accidents. How! is it as your legs support your body?Hyl.No; that is the literal sense.Phil.Pray let me know any sense, literal or not literal, that you understand it in.—How long must I wait for an answer, Hylas?Hyl.I declare I know not what to say. I once thought I understood well enough what was meant by Matter's supporting accidents. But now, the more I think on it the less can I comprehend it: in short I find that I know nothing of it.Phil.It seems then you have no idea at all, neither relative nor positive, of Matter; you know neither what it is in itself, nor what relation it bears to accidents?Hyl.I acknowledge it.Phil.And yet you asserted that you could not conceive how qualities or accidents should really exist, without conceiving at the same time a material support of them?Hyl.I did.Phil.That is to say, when you conceive therealexistence of qualities, you do withal conceive Something which you cannot conceive?Hyl.It was wrong, I own. But still I fear there is some fallacy or other. Pray what think you of this? It is just come into my head that the ground of all our mistake lies in your treating of each quality by itself. Now, I grant that each quality cannot singly subsist without the mind. Colour cannot without extension, neither can figure without some other sensible quality. But, as the several qualities united or blended together form entire sensible things, nothing hinders why such things may not be supposed to exist without the mind.Phil.Either, Hylas, you are jesting, or have a very bad memory. Though indeed we went through all the qualities by name one after another, yet my arguments, or rather your concessions, nowhere tended to prove that the Secondary Qualities did not subsist each alone by[pg 411]itself; but, that they were notat allwithout the mind. Indeed, in treating of figure and motion we concluded they could not exist without the mind, because it was impossible even in thought to separate them from all secondary qualities, so as to conceive them existing by themselves. But then this was not the only argument made use of upon that occasion. But (to pass by all that hath been hitherto said, and reckon it for nothing, if you will have it so) I am content to put the whole upon this issue. If you can conceive it possible for any mixture or combination of qualities, or any sensible object whatever, to exist without the mind, then I will grant it actually to be so.Hyl.If it comes to that the point will soon be decided. What more easy than to conceive a tree or house existing by itself, independent of, and unperceived by, any mind whatsoever? I do at this present time conceive them existing after that manner.Phil.How say you, Hylas, can you see a thing which is at the same time unseen?Hyl.No, that were a contradiction.Phil.Is it not as great a contradiction to talk ofconceivinga thing which isunconceived?Hyl.It is.Phil.The tree or house therefore which you think of is conceived by you?Hyl.How should it be otherwise?Phil.And what is conceived is surely in the mind?Hyl.Without question, that which is conceived is in the mind.Phil.How then came you to say, you conceived a house or tree existing independent and out of all minds whatsoever?Hyl.That was I own an oversight; but stay, let me consider what led me into it.—It is a pleasant mistake enough. As I was thinking of a tree in a solitary place, where no one was present to see it, methought that was to conceive a tree as existing unperceived or unthought of; not considering that I myself conceived it all the while. But now I plainly see that all I can do is to frame ideas in my own mind. I may indeed conceive in my own thoughts the idea of a tree, or a house, or a mountain, but[pg 412]that is all. And this is far from proving that I can conceive themexisting out of the minds of all Spirits.Phil.You acknowledge then that you cannot possibly conceive how any one corporeal sensible thing should exist otherwise than in a mind?Hyl.I do.Phil.And yet you will earnestly contend for the truth of that which you cannot so much as conceive?
Hyl.I own myself entirely satisfied, that they are all equally apparent, and that there is no such thing as colour really inhering in external bodies, but that it is altogether in the light. And what confirms me in this opinion is, that in proportion to the light colours are still more or less vivid; and if there be no light, then are there no colours perceived. Besides, allowing there are colours on external objects, yet, how is it possible for us to perceive them? For no external body affects the mind, unless it acts first on our organs of sense. But the only action of bodies is motion; and motion cannot be communicated otherwise than by impulse. A distant object therefore cannot act on the eye; nor consequently make itself or its properties perceivable to the soul. Whence it plainly follows that it is immediately some contiguous substance, which, operating on the eye, occasions a perception of colours: and such is light.Phil.How! is light then a substance?Hyl.I tell you, Philonous, external light is nothing but a thin fluid substance, whose minute particles being agitated with a brisk motion, and in various manners reflected from the different surfaces of outward objects to the eyes, communicate different motions to the optic nerves; which, being propagated to the brain, cause therein various impressions; and these are attended with the sensations of red, blue, yellow, &c.Phil.It seems then the light doth no more than shake the optic nerves.Hyl.Nothing else.Phil.And consequent to each particular motion of the nerves, the mind is affected with a sensation, which is some particular colour.Hyl.Right.Phil.And these sensations have no existence without the mind.Hyl.They have not.[pg 397]Phil.How then do you affirm that colours are in the light; since bylightyou understand a corporeal substance external to the mind?Hyl.Light and colours, as immediately perceived by us, I grant cannot exist without the mind. But in themselves they are only the motions and configurations of certain insensible particles of matter.Phil.Colours then, in the vulgar sense, or taken for the immediate objects of sight, cannot agree to any but a perceiving substance.Hyl.That is what I say.Phil.Well then, since you give up the point as to those sensible qualities which are alone thought colours by all mankind beside, you may hold what you please with regard to those invisible ones of the philosophers. It is not my business to dispute aboutthem; only I would advise you to bethink yourself, whether, considering the inquiry we are upon, it be prudent for you to affirm—the red and blue which we see are not real colours, but certain unknown motions and figures which no man ever did or can see are truly so. Are not these shocking notions, and are not they subject to as many ridiculous inferences, as those you were obliged to renounce before in the case of sounds?Hyl.I frankly own, Philonous, that it is in vain to stand out any longer. Colours, sounds, tastes, in a word all those termedsecondary qualities, have certainly no existence without the mind. But by this acknowledgment I must not be supposed to derogate anything from the reality of Matter, or external objects; seeing it is no more than several philosophers maintain796, who nevertheless are the farthest imaginable from denying Matter. For the clearer understanding of this, you must know sensible qualities are by philosophers divided intoPrimaryandSecondary797. The former are Extension, Figure, Solidity, Gravity, Motion, and Rest; and these they hold exist really in Bodies. The latter are those above enumerated; or,[pg 398]briefly,all sensible qualities beside the Primary; which they assert are only so many sensations or ideas existing nowhere but in the mind. But all this, I doubt not, you are apprised of. For my part, I have been a long time sensible there was such an opinion current among philosophers, but was never thoroughly convinced of its truth until now.Phil.You are still then of opinion thatextensionandfiguresare inherent in external unthinking substances?Hyl.I am.Phil.But what if the same arguments which are brought against Secondary Qualities will hold good against these also?Hyl.Why then I shall be obliged to think, they too exist only in the mind.Phil.Is it your opinion the very figure and extension which you perceive by sense exist in the outward object or material substance?Hyl.It is.Phil.Have all other animals as good grounds to think the same of the figure and extension which they see and feel?Hyl.Without doubt, if they have any thought at all.Phil.Answer me, Hylas. Think you the senses were bestowed upon all animals for their preservation and well-being in life? or were they given to men alone for this end?Hyl.I make no question but they have the same use in all other animals.Phil.If so, is it not necessary they should be enabled by them to perceive their own limbs, and those bodies which are capable of harming them?Hyl.Certainly.Phil.A mite therefore must be supposed to see his own foot, and things equal or even less than it, as bodies of some considerable dimension; though at the same time they appear to you scarce discernible, or at best as so many visible points798?Hyl.I cannot deny it.[pg 399]Phil.And to creatures less than the mite they will seem yet larger?Hyl.They will.Phil.Insomuch that what you can hardly discern will to another extremely minute animal appear as some huge mountain?Hyl.All this I grant.Phil.Can one and the same thing be at the same time in itself of different dimensions?Hyl.That were absurd to imagine.Phil.But, from what you have laid down it follows that both the extension by you perceived, and that perceived by the mite itself, as likewise all those perceived by lesser animals, are each of them the true extension of the mite's foot; that is to say, by your own principles you are led into an absurdity.Hyl.There seems to be some difficulty in the point.Phil.Again, have you not acknowledged that no real inherent property of any object can be changed without some change in the thing itself?Hyl.I have.Phil.But, as we approach to or recede from an object, the visible extension varies, being at one distance ten or a hundred times greater than at another. Doth it not therefore follow from hence likewise that it is not really inherent in the object?Hyl.I own I am at a loss what to think.Phil.Your judgment will soon be determined, if you will venture to think as freely concerning this quality as you have done concerning the rest. Was it not admitted as a good argument, that neither heat nor cold was in the water, because it seemed warm to one hand and cold to the other?Hyl.It was.Phil.Is it not the very same reasoning to conclude, there is no extension or figure in an object, because to one eye it shall seem little, smooth, and round, when at the same time it appears to the other, great, uneven, and angular?Hyl.The very same. But does this latter fact ever happen?Phil.You may at any time make the experiment, by[pg 400]looking with one eye bare, and with the other through a microscope.Hyl.I know not how to maintain it; and yet I am loath to give upextension, I see so many odd consequences following upon such a concession.Phil.Odd, say you? After the concessions already made, I hope you will stick at nothing for its oddness. [799But, on the other hand, should it not seem very odd, if the general reasoning which includes all other sensible qualities did not also include extension? If it be allowed that no idea, nor anything like an idea, can exist in an unperceiving substance, then surely it follows that no figure, or mode of extension, which we can either perceive, or imagine, or have any idea of, can be really inherent in Matter; not to mention the peculiar difficulty there must be in conceiving a material substance, prior to and distinct from extension, to be thesubstratumof extension. Be the sensible quality what it will—figure, or sound, or colour, it seems alike impossible it should subsist in that which doth not perceive it.]Hyl.I give up the point for the present, reserving still a right to retract my opinion, in case I shall hereafter discover any false step in my progress to it.Phil.That is a right you cannot be denied. Figures and extension being despatched, we proceed next tomotion. Can a real motion in any external body be at the same time both very swift and very slow?Hyl.It cannot.Phil.Is not the motion of a body swift in a reciprocal proportion to the time it takes up in describing any given space? Thus a body that describes a mile in an hour moves three times faster than it would in case it described only a mile in three hours.Hyl.I agree with you.Phil.And is not time measured by the succession of ideas in our minds?Hyl.It is.Phil.And is it not possible ideas should succeed one another twice as fast in your mind as they do in mine, or in that of some spirit of another kind?[pg 401]Hyl.I own it.Phil.Consequently the same body may to another seem to perform its motion over any space in half the time that it doth to you. And the same reasoning will hold as to any other proportion: that is to say, according to your principles (since the motions perceived are both really in the object) it is possible one and the same body shall be really moved the same way at once, both very swift and very slow. How is this consistent either with common sense, or with what you just now granted?Hyl.I have nothing to say to it.Phil.Then as forsolidity; either you do not mean any sensible quality by that word, and so it is beside our inquiry: or if you do, it must be either hardness or resistance. But both the one and the other are plainly relative to our senses: it being evident that what seems hard to one animal may appear soft to another, who hath greater force and firmness of limbs. Nor is it less plain that the resistance I feel is not in the body.Hyl.I own the verysensationof resistance, which is all you immediately perceive, is not in the body; but thecauseof that sensation is.Phil.But the causes of our sensations are not things immediately perceived, and therefore are not sensible. This point I thought had been already determined.Hyl.I own it was; but you will pardon me if I seem a little embarrassed: I know not how to quit my old notions.Phil.To help you out, do but consider that ifextensionbe once acknowledged to have no existence without the mind, the same must necessarily be granted of motion, solidity, and gravity; since they all evidently suppose extension. It is therefore superfluous to inquire particularly concerning each of them. In denying extension, you have denied them all to have any real existence800.Hyl.I wonder, Philonous, if what you say be true, why those philosophers who deny the Secondary Qualities any real existence should yet attribute it to the Primary. If there is no difference between them, how can this be accounted for?[pg 402]Phil.It is not my business to account for every opinion of the philosophers. But, among other reasons which may be assigned for this, it seems probable that pleasure and pain being rather annexed to the former than the latter may be one. Heat and cold, tastes and smells, have something more vividly pleasing or disagreeable than the ideas of extension, figure, and motion affect us with. And, it being too visibly absurd to hold that pain or pleasure can be in an unperceiving Substance, men are more easily weaned from believing the external existence of the Secondary than the Primary Qualities. You will be satisfied there is something in this, if you recollect the difference you made between an intense and more moderate degree of heat; allowing the one a real existence, while you denied it to the other. But, after all, there is no rational ground for that distinction; for, surely an indifferent sensation is as trulya sensationas one more pleasing or painful; and consequently should not any more than they be supposed to exist in an unthinking subject.Hyl.It is just come into my head, Philonous, that I have somewhere heard of a distinction between absolute and sensible extension801. Now, though it be acknowledged thatgreatandsmall, consisting merely in the relation which other extended beings have to the parts of our own bodies, do not really inhere in the substances themselves; yet nothing obliges us to hold the same with regard toabsolute extension, which is something abstracted fromgreatandsmall, from this or that particular magnitude or figure. So likewise as to motion;swiftandsloware altogether relative to the succession of ideas in our own minds. But, it doth not follow, because those modifications of motion exist not without the mind, that therefore absolute motion abstracted from them doth not.Phil.Pray what is it that distinguishes one motion, or one part of extension, from another? Is it not something sensible, as some degree of swiftness or slowness, some certain magnitude or figure peculiar to each?[pg 403]Hyl.I think so.Phil.These qualities, therefore, stripped of all sensible properties, are without all specific and numerical differences, as the schools call them.Hyl.They are.Phil.That is to say, they are extension in general, and motion in general.Hyl.Let it be so.Phil.But it is a universally received maxim thatEverything which exists is particular802. How then can motion in general, or extension in general, exist in any corporeal substance?Hyl.I will take time to solve your difficulty.Phil.But I think the point may be speedily decided. Without doubt you can tell whether you are able to frame this or that idea. Now I am content to put our dispute on this issue. If you can frame in your thoughts a distinctabstract ideaof motion or extension, divested of all those sensible modes, as swift and slow, great and small, round and square, and the like, which are acknowledged to exist only in the mind, I will then yield the point you contend for. But if you cannot, it will be unreasonable on your side to insist any longer upon what you have no notion803of.Hyl.To confess ingenuously, I cannot.Phil.Can you even separate the ideas of extension and motion from the ideas of all those qualities which they who make the distinction termsecondary?Hyl.What! is it not an easy matter to consider extension and motion by themselves, abstracted from all other sensible qualities? Pray how do the mathematicians treat of them?Phil.I acknowledge, Hylas, it is not difficult to form general propositions and reasonings about those qualities, without mentioning any other; and, in this sense, to consider or treat of them abstractedly804. But, how doth it follow that, because I can pronounce the wordmotionby itself, I can form the idea of it in my mind exclusive[pg 404]of body? or, because theorems may be made of extension and figures, without any mention ofgreatorsmall, or any other sensible mode or quality, that therefore it is possible such an abstract idea of extension, without any particular size or figure, or sensible quality805, should be distinctly formed, and apprehended by the mind? Mathematicians treat of quantity, without regarding what other sensible qualities it is attended with, as being altogether indifferent to their demonstrations. But, when laying aside the words, they contemplate the bare ideas, I believe you will find, they are not the pure abstracted ideas of extension.Hyl.But what say you topure intellect? May not abstracted ideas be framed by that faculty?Phil.Since I cannot frame abstract ideas at all, it is plain I cannot frame them by the help ofpure intellect; whatsoever faculty you understand by those words806. Besides, not to inquire into the nature of pure intellect and its spiritual objects, asvirtue,reason,God, or the like, thus much seems manifest—that sensible things are only to be perceived by sense, or represented by the imagination. Figures, therefore, and extension, being originally perceived by sense, do not belong to pure intellect: but, for your farther satisfaction, try if you can frame the idea of any figure, abstracted from all particularities of size, or even from other sensible qualities.Hyl.Let me think a little——I do not find that I can.Phil.And can you think it possible that should really exist in nature which implies a repugnancy in its conception?Hyl.By no means.Phil.Since therefore it is impossible even for the mind to disunite the ideas of extension and motion from all other sensible qualities, doth it not follow, that where the one exist there necessarily the other exist likewise?Hyl.It should seem so.[pg 405]Phil.Consequently, the very same arguments which you admitted as conclusive against the Secondary Qualities are, without any farther application of force, against the Primary too. Besides, if you will trust your senses, is it not plain all sensible qualities coexist, or to them appear as being in the same place? Do they ever represent a motion, or figure, as being divested of all other visible and tangible qualities?Hyl.You need say no more on this head. I am free to own, if there be no secret error or oversight in our proceedings hitherto, thatallsensible qualities are alike to be denied existence without the mind807. But, my fear is that I have been too liberal in my former concessions, or overlooked some fallacy or other. In short, I did not take time to think.Phil.For that matter, Hylas, you may take what time you please in reviewing the progress of our inquiry. You are at liberty to recover any slips you might have made, or offer whatever you have omitted which makes for your first opinion.Hyl.One great oversight I take to be this—that I did not sufficiently distinguish theobjectfrom thesensation808. Now, though this latter may not exist without the mind, yet it will not thence follow that the former cannot.Phil.What object do you mean? the object of the senses?Hyl.The same.Phil.It is then immediately perceived?Hyl.Right.Phil.Make me to understand the difference between what is immediately perceived and a sensation.Hyl.The sensation I take to be an act of the mind perceiving; besides which, there is something perceived; and this I call theobject. For example, there is red and yellow on that tulip. But then the act of perceiving those colours is in me only, and not in the tulip.Phil.What tulip do you speak of? Is it that which you see?Hyl.The same.[pg 406]Phil.And what do you see beside colour, figure, and extension809?Hyl.Nothing.Phil.What you would say then is that the red and yellow are coexistent with the extension; is it not?Hyl.That is not all; I would say they have a real existence without the mind, in some unthinking substance.Phil.That the colours are really in the tulip which I see is manifest. Neither can it be denied that this tulip may exist independent of your mind or mine; but, that any immediate object of the senses—that is, any idea, or combination of ideas—should exist in an unthinking substance, or exterior toallminds, is in itself an evident contradiction. Nor can I imagine how this follows from what you said just now, to wit, that the red and yellow were on the tulipyou saw, since you do not pretend toseethat unthinking substance.Hyl.You have an artful way, Philonous, of diverting our inquiry from the subject.Phil.I see you have no mind to be pressed that way. To return then to your distinction betweensensationandobject; if I take you right, you distinguish in every perception two things, the one an action of the mind, the other not.Hyl.True.Phil.And this action cannot exist in, or belong to, any unthinking thing810; but, whatever beside is implied in a perception may?Hyl.That is my meaning.Phil.So that if there was a perception without any act of the mind, it were possible such a perception should exist in an unthinking substance?Hyl.I grant it. But it is impossible there should be such a perception.Phil.When is the mind said to be active?Hyl.When it produces, puts an end to, or changes, anything.Phil.Can the mind produce, discontinue, or change anything, but by an act of the will?Hyl.It cannot.[pg 407]Phil.The mind therefore is to be accountedactivein its perceptions so far forth asvolitionis included in them?Hyl.It is.Phil.In plucking this flower I am active; because I do it by the motion of my hand, which was consequent upon my volition; so likewise in applying it to my nose. But is either of these smelling?Hyl.No.Phil.I act too in drawing the air through my nose; because my breathing so rather than otherwise is the effect of my volition. But neither can this be calledsmelling: for, if it were, I should smell every time I breathed in that manner?Hyl.True.Phil.Smelling then is somewhat consequent to all this?Hyl.It is.Phil.But I do not find my will concerned any farther. Whatever more there is—as that I perceive such a particular smell, or any smell at all—this is independent of my will, and therein I am altogether passive. Do you find it otherwise with you, Hylas?Hyl.No, the very same.Phil.Then, as to seeing, is it not in your power to open your eyes, or keep them shut; to turn them this or that way?Hyl.Without doubt.Phil.But, doth it in like manner depend onyourwill that in looking on this flower you perceivewhiterather than any other colour? Or, directing your open eyes towards yonder part of the heaven, can you avoid seeing the sun? Or is light or darkness the effect of your volition?Hyl.No, certainly.Phil.You are then in these respects altogether passive?Hyl.I am.Phil.Tell me now, whetherseeingconsists in perceiving light and colours, or in opening and turning the eyes?Hyl.Without doubt, in the former.Phil.Since therefore you are in the very perception of light and colours altogether passive, what is become of that action you were speaking of as an ingredient in every sensation? And, doth it not follow from your own concessions, that the perception of light and colours, including no action in it, may exist in an unperceiving substance? And is not this a plain contradiction?[pg 408]Hyl.I know not what to think of it.Phil.Besides, since you distinguish theactiveandpassivein every perception, you must do it in that of pain. But how is it possible that pain, be it as little active as you please, should exist in an unperceiving substance? In short, do but consider the point, and then confess ingenuously, whether light and colours, tastes, sounds, &c. are not all equally passions or sensations in the soul. You may indeed call themexternal objects, and give them in words what subsistence you please. But, examine your own thoughts, and then tell me whether it be not as I say?Hyl.I acknowledge, Philonous, that, upon a fair observation of what passes in my mind, I can discover nothing else but that I am a thinking being, affected with variety of sensations; neither is it possible to conceive how a sensation should exist in an unperceiving substance.—But then, on the other hand, when I look on sensible things in a different view, considering them as so many modes and qualities, I find it necessary to suppose amaterial substratum, without which they cannot be conceived to exist811.Phil.Material substratumcall you it? Pray, by which of your senses came you acquainted with that being?Hyl.It is not itself sensible; its modes and qualities only being perceived by the senses.Phil.I presume then it was by reflexion and reason you obtained the idea of it?Hyl.I do not pretend to any proper positiveideaof it. However, I conclude it exists, because qualities cannot be conceived to exist without a support.Phil.It seems then you have only a relativenotionof it, or that you conceive it not otherwise than by conceiving the relation it bears to sensible qualities?Hyl.Right.Phil.Be pleased therefore to let me know wherein that relation consists.[pg 409]Hyl.Is it not sufficiently expressed in the termsubstratum, orsubstance?Phil.If so, the wordsubstratumshould import that it is spread under the sensible qualities or accidents?Hyl.True.Phil.And consequently under extension?Hyl.I own it.Phil.It is therefore somewhat in its own nature entirely distinct from extension?Hyl.I tell you, extension is only a mode, and Matter is something that supports modes. And is it not evident the thing supported is different from the thing supporting?Phil.So that something distinct from, and exclusive of, extension is supposed to be thesubstratumof extension?Hyl.Just so.Phil.Answer me, Hylas. Can a thing be spread without extension? or is not the idea of extension necessarily included inspreading?Hyl.It is.Phil.Whatsoever therefore you suppose spread under anything must have in itself an extension distinct from the extension of that thing under which it is spread?Hyl.It must.Phil.Consequently, every corporeal substance, being thesubstratumof extension, must have in itself another extension, by which it is qualified to be asubstratum: and so on to infinity? And I ask whether this be not absurd in itself, and repugnant to what you granted just now, to wit, that thesubstratumwas something distinct from and exclusive of extension?Hyl.Aye but, Philonous, you take me wrong. I do not mean that Matter isspreadin a gross literal sense under extension. The wordsubstratumis used only to express in general the same thing withsubstance.Phil.Well then, let us examine the relation implied in the termsubstance. Is it not that it stands under accidents?Hyl.The very same.Phil.But, that one thing may stand under or support another, must it not be extended?Hyl.It must.Phil.Is not therefore this supposition liable to the same absurdity with the former?[pg 410]Hyl.You still take things in a strict literal sense. That is not fair, Philonous.Phil.I am not for imposing any sense on your words: you are at liberty to explain them as you please. Only, I beseech you, make me understand something by them. You tell me Matter supports or stands under accidents. How! is it as your legs support your body?Hyl.No; that is the literal sense.Phil.Pray let me know any sense, literal or not literal, that you understand it in.—How long must I wait for an answer, Hylas?Hyl.I declare I know not what to say. I once thought I understood well enough what was meant by Matter's supporting accidents. But now, the more I think on it the less can I comprehend it: in short I find that I know nothing of it.Phil.It seems then you have no idea at all, neither relative nor positive, of Matter; you know neither what it is in itself, nor what relation it bears to accidents?Hyl.I acknowledge it.Phil.And yet you asserted that you could not conceive how qualities or accidents should really exist, without conceiving at the same time a material support of them?Hyl.I did.Phil.That is to say, when you conceive therealexistence of qualities, you do withal conceive Something which you cannot conceive?Hyl.It was wrong, I own. But still I fear there is some fallacy or other. Pray what think you of this? It is just come into my head that the ground of all our mistake lies in your treating of each quality by itself. Now, I grant that each quality cannot singly subsist without the mind. Colour cannot without extension, neither can figure without some other sensible quality. But, as the several qualities united or blended together form entire sensible things, nothing hinders why such things may not be supposed to exist without the mind.Phil.Either, Hylas, you are jesting, or have a very bad memory. Though indeed we went through all the qualities by name one after another, yet my arguments, or rather your concessions, nowhere tended to prove that the Secondary Qualities did not subsist each alone by[pg 411]itself; but, that they were notat allwithout the mind. Indeed, in treating of figure and motion we concluded they could not exist without the mind, because it was impossible even in thought to separate them from all secondary qualities, so as to conceive them existing by themselves. But then this was not the only argument made use of upon that occasion. But (to pass by all that hath been hitherto said, and reckon it for nothing, if you will have it so) I am content to put the whole upon this issue. If you can conceive it possible for any mixture or combination of qualities, or any sensible object whatever, to exist without the mind, then I will grant it actually to be so.Hyl.If it comes to that the point will soon be decided. What more easy than to conceive a tree or house existing by itself, independent of, and unperceived by, any mind whatsoever? I do at this present time conceive them existing after that manner.Phil.How say you, Hylas, can you see a thing which is at the same time unseen?Hyl.No, that were a contradiction.Phil.Is it not as great a contradiction to talk ofconceivinga thing which isunconceived?Hyl.It is.Phil.The tree or house therefore which you think of is conceived by you?Hyl.How should it be otherwise?Phil.And what is conceived is surely in the mind?Hyl.Without question, that which is conceived is in the mind.Phil.How then came you to say, you conceived a house or tree existing independent and out of all minds whatsoever?Hyl.That was I own an oversight; but stay, let me consider what led me into it.—It is a pleasant mistake enough. As I was thinking of a tree in a solitary place, where no one was present to see it, methought that was to conceive a tree as existing unperceived or unthought of; not considering that I myself conceived it all the while. But now I plainly see that all I can do is to frame ideas in my own mind. I may indeed conceive in my own thoughts the idea of a tree, or a house, or a mountain, but[pg 412]that is all. And this is far from proving that I can conceive themexisting out of the minds of all Spirits.Phil.You acknowledge then that you cannot possibly conceive how any one corporeal sensible thing should exist otherwise than in a mind?Hyl.I do.Phil.And yet you will earnestly contend for the truth of that which you cannot so much as conceive?
Hyl.I own myself entirely satisfied, that they are all equally apparent, and that there is no such thing as colour really inhering in external bodies, but that it is altogether in the light. And what confirms me in this opinion is, that in proportion to the light colours are still more or less vivid; and if there be no light, then are there no colours perceived. Besides, allowing there are colours on external objects, yet, how is it possible for us to perceive them? For no external body affects the mind, unless it acts first on our organs of sense. But the only action of bodies is motion; and motion cannot be communicated otherwise than by impulse. A distant object therefore cannot act on the eye; nor consequently make itself or its properties perceivable to the soul. Whence it plainly follows that it is immediately some contiguous substance, which, operating on the eye, occasions a perception of colours: and such is light.
Phil.How! is light then a substance?
Hyl.I tell you, Philonous, external light is nothing but a thin fluid substance, whose minute particles being agitated with a brisk motion, and in various manners reflected from the different surfaces of outward objects to the eyes, communicate different motions to the optic nerves; which, being propagated to the brain, cause therein various impressions; and these are attended with the sensations of red, blue, yellow, &c.
Phil.It seems then the light doth no more than shake the optic nerves.
Hyl.Nothing else.
Phil.And consequent to each particular motion of the nerves, the mind is affected with a sensation, which is some particular colour.
Hyl.Right.
Phil.And these sensations have no existence without the mind.
Hyl.They have not.
Phil.How then do you affirm that colours are in the light; since bylightyou understand a corporeal substance external to the mind?
Hyl.Light and colours, as immediately perceived by us, I grant cannot exist without the mind. But in themselves they are only the motions and configurations of certain insensible particles of matter.
Phil.Colours then, in the vulgar sense, or taken for the immediate objects of sight, cannot agree to any but a perceiving substance.
Hyl.That is what I say.
Phil.Well then, since you give up the point as to those sensible qualities which are alone thought colours by all mankind beside, you may hold what you please with regard to those invisible ones of the philosophers. It is not my business to dispute aboutthem; only I would advise you to bethink yourself, whether, considering the inquiry we are upon, it be prudent for you to affirm—the red and blue which we see are not real colours, but certain unknown motions and figures which no man ever did or can see are truly so. Are not these shocking notions, and are not they subject to as many ridiculous inferences, as those you were obliged to renounce before in the case of sounds?
Hyl.I frankly own, Philonous, that it is in vain to stand out any longer. Colours, sounds, tastes, in a word all those termedsecondary qualities, have certainly no existence without the mind. But by this acknowledgment I must not be supposed to derogate anything from the reality of Matter, or external objects; seeing it is no more than several philosophers maintain796, who nevertheless are the farthest imaginable from denying Matter. For the clearer understanding of this, you must know sensible qualities are by philosophers divided intoPrimaryandSecondary797. The former are Extension, Figure, Solidity, Gravity, Motion, and Rest; and these they hold exist really in Bodies. The latter are those above enumerated; or,[pg 398]briefly,all sensible qualities beside the Primary; which they assert are only so many sensations or ideas existing nowhere but in the mind. But all this, I doubt not, you are apprised of. For my part, I have been a long time sensible there was such an opinion current among philosophers, but was never thoroughly convinced of its truth until now.
Phil.You are still then of opinion thatextensionandfiguresare inherent in external unthinking substances?
Hyl.I am.
Phil.But what if the same arguments which are brought against Secondary Qualities will hold good against these also?
Hyl.Why then I shall be obliged to think, they too exist only in the mind.
Phil.Is it your opinion the very figure and extension which you perceive by sense exist in the outward object or material substance?
Hyl.It is.
Phil.Have all other animals as good grounds to think the same of the figure and extension which they see and feel?
Hyl.Without doubt, if they have any thought at all.
Phil.Answer me, Hylas. Think you the senses were bestowed upon all animals for their preservation and well-being in life? or were they given to men alone for this end?
Hyl.I make no question but they have the same use in all other animals.
Phil.If so, is it not necessary they should be enabled by them to perceive their own limbs, and those bodies which are capable of harming them?
Hyl.Certainly.
Phil.A mite therefore must be supposed to see his own foot, and things equal or even less than it, as bodies of some considerable dimension; though at the same time they appear to you scarce discernible, or at best as so many visible points798?
Hyl.I cannot deny it.
Phil.And to creatures less than the mite they will seem yet larger?
Hyl.They will.
Phil.Insomuch that what you can hardly discern will to another extremely minute animal appear as some huge mountain?
Hyl.All this I grant.
Phil.Can one and the same thing be at the same time in itself of different dimensions?
Hyl.That were absurd to imagine.
Phil.But, from what you have laid down it follows that both the extension by you perceived, and that perceived by the mite itself, as likewise all those perceived by lesser animals, are each of them the true extension of the mite's foot; that is to say, by your own principles you are led into an absurdity.
Hyl.There seems to be some difficulty in the point.
Phil.Again, have you not acknowledged that no real inherent property of any object can be changed without some change in the thing itself?
Hyl.I have.
Phil.But, as we approach to or recede from an object, the visible extension varies, being at one distance ten or a hundred times greater than at another. Doth it not therefore follow from hence likewise that it is not really inherent in the object?
Hyl.I own I am at a loss what to think.
Phil.Your judgment will soon be determined, if you will venture to think as freely concerning this quality as you have done concerning the rest. Was it not admitted as a good argument, that neither heat nor cold was in the water, because it seemed warm to one hand and cold to the other?
Hyl.It was.
Phil.Is it not the very same reasoning to conclude, there is no extension or figure in an object, because to one eye it shall seem little, smooth, and round, when at the same time it appears to the other, great, uneven, and angular?
Hyl.The very same. But does this latter fact ever happen?
Phil.You may at any time make the experiment, by[pg 400]looking with one eye bare, and with the other through a microscope.
Hyl.I know not how to maintain it; and yet I am loath to give upextension, I see so many odd consequences following upon such a concession.
Phil.Odd, say you? After the concessions already made, I hope you will stick at nothing for its oddness. [799But, on the other hand, should it not seem very odd, if the general reasoning which includes all other sensible qualities did not also include extension? If it be allowed that no idea, nor anything like an idea, can exist in an unperceiving substance, then surely it follows that no figure, or mode of extension, which we can either perceive, or imagine, or have any idea of, can be really inherent in Matter; not to mention the peculiar difficulty there must be in conceiving a material substance, prior to and distinct from extension, to be thesubstratumof extension. Be the sensible quality what it will—figure, or sound, or colour, it seems alike impossible it should subsist in that which doth not perceive it.]
Hyl.I give up the point for the present, reserving still a right to retract my opinion, in case I shall hereafter discover any false step in my progress to it.
Phil.That is a right you cannot be denied. Figures and extension being despatched, we proceed next tomotion. Can a real motion in any external body be at the same time both very swift and very slow?
Hyl.It cannot.
Phil.Is not the motion of a body swift in a reciprocal proportion to the time it takes up in describing any given space? Thus a body that describes a mile in an hour moves three times faster than it would in case it described only a mile in three hours.
Hyl.I agree with you.
Phil.And is not time measured by the succession of ideas in our minds?
Hyl.It is.
Phil.And is it not possible ideas should succeed one another twice as fast in your mind as they do in mine, or in that of some spirit of another kind?
Hyl.I own it.
Phil.Consequently the same body may to another seem to perform its motion over any space in half the time that it doth to you. And the same reasoning will hold as to any other proportion: that is to say, according to your principles (since the motions perceived are both really in the object) it is possible one and the same body shall be really moved the same way at once, both very swift and very slow. How is this consistent either with common sense, or with what you just now granted?
Hyl.I have nothing to say to it.
Phil.Then as forsolidity; either you do not mean any sensible quality by that word, and so it is beside our inquiry: or if you do, it must be either hardness or resistance. But both the one and the other are plainly relative to our senses: it being evident that what seems hard to one animal may appear soft to another, who hath greater force and firmness of limbs. Nor is it less plain that the resistance I feel is not in the body.
Hyl.I own the verysensationof resistance, which is all you immediately perceive, is not in the body; but thecauseof that sensation is.
Phil.But the causes of our sensations are not things immediately perceived, and therefore are not sensible. This point I thought had been already determined.
Hyl.I own it was; but you will pardon me if I seem a little embarrassed: I know not how to quit my old notions.
Phil.To help you out, do but consider that ifextensionbe once acknowledged to have no existence without the mind, the same must necessarily be granted of motion, solidity, and gravity; since they all evidently suppose extension. It is therefore superfluous to inquire particularly concerning each of them. In denying extension, you have denied them all to have any real existence800.
Hyl.I wonder, Philonous, if what you say be true, why those philosophers who deny the Secondary Qualities any real existence should yet attribute it to the Primary. If there is no difference between them, how can this be accounted for?
Phil.It is not my business to account for every opinion of the philosophers. But, among other reasons which may be assigned for this, it seems probable that pleasure and pain being rather annexed to the former than the latter may be one. Heat and cold, tastes and smells, have something more vividly pleasing or disagreeable than the ideas of extension, figure, and motion affect us with. And, it being too visibly absurd to hold that pain or pleasure can be in an unperceiving Substance, men are more easily weaned from believing the external existence of the Secondary than the Primary Qualities. You will be satisfied there is something in this, if you recollect the difference you made between an intense and more moderate degree of heat; allowing the one a real existence, while you denied it to the other. But, after all, there is no rational ground for that distinction; for, surely an indifferent sensation is as trulya sensationas one more pleasing or painful; and consequently should not any more than they be supposed to exist in an unthinking subject.
Hyl.It is just come into my head, Philonous, that I have somewhere heard of a distinction between absolute and sensible extension801. Now, though it be acknowledged thatgreatandsmall, consisting merely in the relation which other extended beings have to the parts of our own bodies, do not really inhere in the substances themselves; yet nothing obliges us to hold the same with regard toabsolute extension, which is something abstracted fromgreatandsmall, from this or that particular magnitude or figure. So likewise as to motion;swiftandsloware altogether relative to the succession of ideas in our own minds. But, it doth not follow, because those modifications of motion exist not without the mind, that therefore absolute motion abstracted from them doth not.
Phil.Pray what is it that distinguishes one motion, or one part of extension, from another? Is it not something sensible, as some degree of swiftness or slowness, some certain magnitude or figure peculiar to each?
Hyl.I think so.
Phil.These qualities, therefore, stripped of all sensible properties, are without all specific and numerical differences, as the schools call them.
Hyl.They are.
Phil.That is to say, they are extension in general, and motion in general.
Hyl.Let it be so.
Phil.But it is a universally received maxim thatEverything which exists is particular802. How then can motion in general, or extension in general, exist in any corporeal substance?
Hyl.I will take time to solve your difficulty.
Phil.But I think the point may be speedily decided. Without doubt you can tell whether you are able to frame this or that idea. Now I am content to put our dispute on this issue. If you can frame in your thoughts a distinctabstract ideaof motion or extension, divested of all those sensible modes, as swift and slow, great and small, round and square, and the like, which are acknowledged to exist only in the mind, I will then yield the point you contend for. But if you cannot, it will be unreasonable on your side to insist any longer upon what you have no notion803of.
Hyl.To confess ingenuously, I cannot.
Phil.Can you even separate the ideas of extension and motion from the ideas of all those qualities which they who make the distinction termsecondary?
Hyl.What! is it not an easy matter to consider extension and motion by themselves, abstracted from all other sensible qualities? Pray how do the mathematicians treat of them?
Phil.I acknowledge, Hylas, it is not difficult to form general propositions and reasonings about those qualities, without mentioning any other; and, in this sense, to consider or treat of them abstractedly804. But, how doth it follow that, because I can pronounce the wordmotionby itself, I can form the idea of it in my mind exclusive[pg 404]of body? or, because theorems may be made of extension and figures, without any mention ofgreatorsmall, or any other sensible mode or quality, that therefore it is possible such an abstract idea of extension, without any particular size or figure, or sensible quality805, should be distinctly formed, and apprehended by the mind? Mathematicians treat of quantity, without regarding what other sensible qualities it is attended with, as being altogether indifferent to their demonstrations. But, when laying aside the words, they contemplate the bare ideas, I believe you will find, they are not the pure abstracted ideas of extension.
Hyl.But what say you topure intellect? May not abstracted ideas be framed by that faculty?
Phil.Since I cannot frame abstract ideas at all, it is plain I cannot frame them by the help ofpure intellect; whatsoever faculty you understand by those words806. Besides, not to inquire into the nature of pure intellect and its spiritual objects, asvirtue,reason,God, or the like, thus much seems manifest—that sensible things are only to be perceived by sense, or represented by the imagination. Figures, therefore, and extension, being originally perceived by sense, do not belong to pure intellect: but, for your farther satisfaction, try if you can frame the idea of any figure, abstracted from all particularities of size, or even from other sensible qualities.
Hyl.Let me think a little——I do not find that I can.
Phil.And can you think it possible that should really exist in nature which implies a repugnancy in its conception?
Hyl.By no means.
Phil.Since therefore it is impossible even for the mind to disunite the ideas of extension and motion from all other sensible qualities, doth it not follow, that where the one exist there necessarily the other exist likewise?
Hyl.It should seem so.
Phil.Consequently, the very same arguments which you admitted as conclusive against the Secondary Qualities are, without any farther application of force, against the Primary too. Besides, if you will trust your senses, is it not plain all sensible qualities coexist, or to them appear as being in the same place? Do they ever represent a motion, or figure, as being divested of all other visible and tangible qualities?
Hyl.You need say no more on this head. I am free to own, if there be no secret error or oversight in our proceedings hitherto, thatallsensible qualities are alike to be denied existence without the mind807. But, my fear is that I have been too liberal in my former concessions, or overlooked some fallacy or other. In short, I did not take time to think.
Phil.For that matter, Hylas, you may take what time you please in reviewing the progress of our inquiry. You are at liberty to recover any slips you might have made, or offer whatever you have omitted which makes for your first opinion.
Hyl.One great oversight I take to be this—that I did not sufficiently distinguish theobjectfrom thesensation808. Now, though this latter may not exist without the mind, yet it will not thence follow that the former cannot.
Phil.What object do you mean? the object of the senses?
Hyl.The same.
Phil.It is then immediately perceived?
Hyl.Right.
Phil.Make me to understand the difference between what is immediately perceived and a sensation.
Hyl.The sensation I take to be an act of the mind perceiving; besides which, there is something perceived; and this I call theobject. For example, there is red and yellow on that tulip. But then the act of perceiving those colours is in me only, and not in the tulip.
Phil.What tulip do you speak of? Is it that which you see?
Hyl.The same.
Phil.And what do you see beside colour, figure, and extension809?
Hyl.Nothing.
Phil.What you would say then is that the red and yellow are coexistent with the extension; is it not?
Hyl.That is not all; I would say they have a real existence without the mind, in some unthinking substance.
Phil.That the colours are really in the tulip which I see is manifest. Neither can it be denied that this tulip may exist independent of your mind or mine; but, that any immediate object of the senses—that is, any idea, or combination of ideas—should exist in an unthinking substance, or exterior toallminds, is in itself an evident contradiction. Nor can I imagine how this follows from what you said just now, to wit, that the red and yellow were on the tulipyou saw, since you do not pretend toseethat unthinking substance.
Hyl.You have an artful way, Philonous, of diverting our inquiry from the subject.
Phil.I see you have no mind to be pressed that way. To return then to your distinction betweensensationandobject; if I take you right, you distinguish in every perception two things, the one an action of the mind, the other not.
Hyl.True.
Phil.And this action cannot exist in, or belong to, any unthinking thing810; but, whatever beside is implied in a perception may?
Hyl.That is my meaning.
Phil.So that if there was a perception without any act of the mind, it were possible such a perception should exist in an unthinking substance?
Hyl.I grant it. But it is impossible there should be such a perception.
Phil.When is the mind said to be active?
Hyl.When it produces, puts an end to, or changes, anything.
Phil.Can the mind produce, discontinue, or change anything, but by an act of the will?
Hyl.It cannot.
Phil.The mind therefore is to be accountedactivein its perceptions so far forth asvolitionis included in them?
Hyl.It is.
Phil.In plucking this flower I am active; because I do it by the motion of my hand, which was consequent upon my volition; so likewise in applying it to my nose. But is either of these smelling?
Hyl.No.
Phil.I act too in drawing the air through my nose; because my breathing so rather than otherwise is the effect of my volition. But neither can this be calledsmelling: for, if it were, I should smell every time I breathed in that manner?
Hyl.True.
Phil.Smelling then is somewhat consequent to all this?
Hyl.It is.
Phil.But I do not find my will concerned any farther. Whatever more there is—as that I perceive such a particular smell, or any smell at all—this is independent of my will, and therein I am altogether passive. Do you find it otherwise with you, Hylas?
Hyl.No, the very same.
Phil.Then, as to seeing, is it not in your power to open your eyes, or keep them shut; to turn them this or that way?
Hyl.Without doubt.
Phil.But, doth it in like manner depend onyourwill that in looking on this flower you perceivewhiterather than any other colour? Or, directing your open eyes towards yonder part of the heaven, can you avoid seeing the sun? Or is light or darkness the effect of your volition?
Hyl.No, certainly.
Phil.You are then in these respects altogether passive?
Hyl.I am.
Phil.Tell me now, whetherseeingconsists in perceiving light and colours, or in opening and turning the eyes?
Hyl.Without doubt, in the former.
Phil.Since therefore you are in the very perception of light and colours altogether passive, what is become of that action you were speaking of as an ingredient in every sensation? And, doth it not follow from your own concessions, that the perception of light and colours, including no action in it, may exist in an unperceiving substance? And is not this a plain contradiction?
Hyl.I know not what to think of it.
Phil.Besides, since you distinguish theactiveandpassivein every perception, you must do it in that of pain. But how is it possible that pain, be it as little active as you please, should exist in an unperceiving substance? In short, do but consider the point, and then confess ingenuously, whether light and colours, tastes, sounds, &c. are not all equally passions or sensations in the soul. You may indeed call themexternal objects, and give them in words what subsistence you please. But, examine your own thoughts, and then tell me whether it be not as I say?
Hyl.I acknowledge, Philonous, that, upon a fair observation of what passes in my mind, I can discover nothing else but that I am a thinking being, affected with variety of sensations; neither is it possible to conceive how a sensation should exist in an unperceiving substance.—But then, on the other hand, when I look on sensible things in a different view, considering them as so many modes and qualities, I find it necessary to suppose amaterial substratum, without which they cannot be conceived to exist811.
Phil.Material substratumcall you it? Pray, by which of your senses came you acquainted with that being?
Hyl.It is not itself sensible; its modes and qualities only being perceived by the senses.
Phil.I presume then it was by reflexion and reason you obtained the idea of it?
Hyl.I do not pretend to any proper positiveideaof it. However, I conclude it exists, because qualities cannot be conceived to exist without a support.
Phil.It seems then you have only a relativenotionof it, or that you conceive it not otherwise than by conceiving the relation it bears to sensible qualities?
Hyl.Right.
Phil.Be pleased therefore to let me know wherein that relation consists.
Hyl.Is it not sufficiently expressed in the termsubstratum, orsubstance?
Phil.If so, the wordsubstratumshould import that it is spread under the sensible qualities or accidents?
Hyl.True.
Phil.And consequently under extension?
Hyl.I own it.
Phil.It is therefore somewhat in its own nature entirely distinct from extension?
Hyl.I tell you, extension is only a mode, and Matter is something that supports modes. And is it not evident the thing supported is different from the thing supporting?
Phil.So that something distinct from, and exclusive of, extension is supposed to be thesubstratumof extension?
Hyl.Just so.
Phil.Answer me, Hylas. Can a thing be spread without extension? or is not the idea of extension necessarily included inspreading?
Hyl.It is.
Phil.Whatsoever therefore you suppose spread under anything must have in itself an extension distinct from the extension of that thing under which it is spread?
Hyl.It must.
Phil.Consequently, every corporeal substance, being thesubstratumof extension, must have in itself another extension, by which it is qualified to be asubstratum: and so on to infinity? And I ask whether this be not absurd in itself, and repugnant to what you granted just now, to wit, that thesubstratumwas something distinct from and exclusive of extension?
Hyl.Aye but, Philonous, you take me wrong. I do not mean that Matter isspreadin a gross literal sense under extension. The wordsubstratumis used only to express in general the same thing withsubstance.
Phil.Well then, let us examine the relation implied in the termsubstance. Is it not that it stands under accidents?
Hyl.The very same.
Phil.But, that one thing may stand under or support another, must it not be extended?
Hyl.It must.
Phil.Is not therefore this supposition liable to the same absurdity with the former?
Hyl.You still take things in a strict literal sense. That is not fair, Philonous.
Phil.I am not for imposing any sense on your words: you are at liberty to explain them as you please. Only, I beseech you, make me understand something by them. You tell me Matter supports or stands under accidents. How! is it as your legs support your body?
Hyl.No; that is the literal sense.
Phil.Pray let me know any sense, literal or not literal, that you understand it in.—How long must I wait for an answer, Hylas?
Hyl.I declare I know not what to say. I once thought I understood well enough what was meant by Matter's supporting accidents. But now, the more I think on it the less can I comprehend it: in short I find that I know nothing of it.
Phil.It seems then you have no idea at all, neither relative nor positive, of Matter; you know neither what it is in itself, nor what relation it bears to accidents?
Hyl.I acknowledge it.
Phil.And yet you asserted that you could not conceive how qualities or accidents should really exist, without conceiving at the same time a material support of them?
Hyl.I did.
Phil.That is to say, when you conceive therealexistence of qualities, you do withal conceive Something which you cannot conceive?
Hyl.It was wrong, I own. But still I fear there is some fallacy or other. Pray what think you of this? It is just come into my head that the ground of all our mistake lies in your treating of each quality by itself. Now, I grant that each quality cannot singly subsist without the mind. Colour cannot without extension, neither can figure without some other sensible quality. But, as the several qualities united or blended together form entire sensible things, nothing hinders why such things may not be supposed to exist without the mind.
Phil.Either, Hylas, you are jesting, or have a very bad memory. Though indeed we went through all the qualities by name one after another, yet my arguments, or rather your concessions, nowhere tended to prove that the Secondary Qualities did not subsist each alone by[pg 411]itself; but, that they were notat allwithout the mind. Indeed, in treating of figure and motion we concluded they could not exist without the mind, because it was impossible even in thought to separate them from all secondary qualities, so as to conceive them existing by themselves. But then this was not the only argument made use of upon that occasion. But (to pass by all that hath been hitherto said, and reckon it for nothing, if you will have it so) I am content to put the whole upon this issue. If you can conceive it possible for any mixture or combination of qualities, or any sensible object whatever, to exist without the mind, then I will grant it actually to be so.
Hyl.If it comes to that the point will soon be decided. What more easy than to conceive a tree or house existing by itself, independent of, and unperceived by, any mind whatsoever? I do at this present time conceive them existing after that manner.
Phil.How say you, Hylas, can you see a thing which is at the same time unseen?
Hyl.No, that were a contradiction.
Phil.Is it not as great a contradiction to talk ofconceivinga thing which isunconceived?
Hyl.It is.
Phil.The tree or house therefore which you think of is conceived by you?
Hyl.How should it be otherwise?
Phil.And what is conceived is surely in the mind?
Hyl.Without question, that which is conceived is in the mind.
Phil.How then came you to say, you conceived a house or tree existing independent and out of all minds whatsoever?
Hyl.That was I own an oversight; but stay, let me consider what led me into it.—It is a pleasant mistake enough. As I was thinking of a tree in a solitary place, where no one was present to see it, methought that was to conceive a tree as existing unperceived or unthought of; not considering that I myself conceived it all the while. But now I plainly see that all I can do is to frame ideas in my own mind. I may indeed conceive in my own thoughts the idea of a tree, or a house, or a mountain, but[pg 412]that is all. And this is far from proving that I can conceive themexisting out of the minds of all Spirits.
Phil.You acknowledge then that you cannot possibly conceive how any one corporeal sensible thing should exist otherwise than in a mind?
Hyl.I do.
Phil.And yet you will earnestly contend for the truth of that which you cannot so much as conceive?