extravagant language by Mr. Talmage, and nothingis said touching her character in the least. All hervirtues live in the imagination, and in the imagina-tion alone.Paul, also, in his epistle to the Ephesians, says:"Wives, submit yourselves unto your own hus-"bands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the"head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the"church.""Therefore, as the church is subject unto Christ,"so let the wives be to their own husbands, in"everything."You will find, too, that in the seventh chapter ofFirst Corinthians, Paul laments that all men are notbachelors like himself, and in the second verse ofthat chapter he gives the only reason for which hewas willing that men and women should marry. Headvised all the unmarried, and all widows, to remain128as he was. In the ninth verse of this same chapteris a slander too vulgar for repetition,—an estimateof woman and of woman's love so low and vile, thatevery woman should hold the inspired author ininfinite abhorrence.Paul sums up the whole matter, however, by tellingthose who have wives or husbands, to stay withthem—as necessary evils only to be tolerated—butsincerely regrets that anybody was ever married;and finally says that:"They that have wives should be as though they"had none;" because, in his opinion:"He that is unmarried careth for the things that"belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord;"but he that is married careth for the things that are"of the world, how he may please his wife.""There is this difference also," he tells us, "be-"tween a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman"careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be"holy both in body and in spirit; but she that is"married careth for the things of the world, how she" may please her husband."Of course, it is contended that these things havetended to the elevation of woman.The idea that it is better to love the Lord than to129love your wife, or your husband, is infinitely absurd.Nobody ever did love the Lord,—nobody can—untilhe becomes acquainted with him.Saint Paul also tells us that "Man is the image"and glory of God; but woman is the glory of"man;" and for the purpose of sustaining this posi-tion, says:"For the man is not of the woman, but the woman"of the man; neither was the man created for the"woman, but the woman for the man."Of course, we can all see that man could havegotten along well enough without woman, but woman,by no possibility, could have gotten along withoutman. And yet, this is called "inspired;" and thisapostle Paul is supposed to have known more thanall the people now upon the earth. No wonder Paulat last was constrained to say: "We are fools for"Christ's sake."Question. How do you account for the presentcondition of woman in what is known as "the civilized"world," unless the Bible has bettered her condition?Answer. We must remember that thousands ofthings enter into the problem of civilization. Soil,climate, and geographical position, united with count-130less other influences, have resulted in the civilizationof our time. If we want to find what the influence ofthe Bible has been, we must ascertain the conditionof Europe when the Bible was considered as abso-lutely true, and when it wielded its greatest influence.Christianity as a form of religion had actual posses-sion of Europe during the Middle Ages. At thattime, it exerted its greatest power. Then it had theopportunity of breaking the shackles from the limbsof woman. Christianity found the Roman matron afree woman. Polygamy was never known in Rome;and although divorces were allowed by law, theRoman state had been founded for more than fivehundred years before either a husband or a wifeasked for a divorce. From the foundation of Chris-tianity,—I mean from the time it became the force inthe Roman state,—woman, as such, went down inthe scale of civilization. The sceptre was taken fromher hands, and she became once more the slave andserf of man. The men also were made slaves, andwoman has regained her liberty by the same meansthat man has regained his,—by wresting authorityfrom the hands of the church. While the church hadpower, the wife and mother was not considered asgood as the begging nun; the husband and fatherwas far below the vermin-covered monk; homeswere of no value compared with the cathedral; forGod had to have a house, no matter how many ofhis children were wanderers. During all the years inwhich woman has struggled for equal liberty withman, she has been met with the Bible doctrine thatshe is the inferior of the man; that Adam was madefirst, and Eve afterwards; that man was not made forwoman, but that woman was made for man.I find that in this day and generation, the meanestmen have the lowest estimate of woman; that thegreater the man is, the grander he is, the more hethinks of mother, wife and daughter. I also find thatjust in the proportion that he has lost confidence in thepolygamy of Jehovah and in the advice and philosophyof Saint Paul, he believes in the rights and liberties ofwoman. As a matter of fact, men have risen from aperusal of the Bible, and murdered their wives. Theyhave risen from reading its pages, and inflicted crueland even mortal blows upon their children. Menhave risen from reading the Bible and torn the fleshof others with red-hot pincers. They have laiddown the sacred volume long enough to pour moltenlead into the ears of others. They have stoppedreading the sacred Scriptures for a sufficient time to132incarcerate their fellow-men, to load them with chains,and then they have gone back to their reading,allowing their victims to die in darkness and despair.Men have stopped reading the Old Testament longenough to drive a stake into the ground and collect afew fagots and burn an honest man. Even ministershave denied themselves the privilege of reading thesacred book long enough to tell falsehoods abouttheir fellow-men. There is no crime that Biblereaders and Bible believers and Bible worshipers andBible defenders have not committed. There is nomeanness of which some Bible reader, believer, anddefender, has not been guilty. Bible believers andBible defenders have filled the world with calumniesand slanders. Bible believers and Bible defendershave not only whipped their wives, but they havemurdered them; they have murdered their children.I do not say that reading the Bible will necessarilymake men dishonest, but I do say, that reading theBible will not prevent their committing crimes. I donot say that believing the Bible will necessarily makemen commit burglary, but I do say that a belief in theBible has caused men to persecute each other, toimprison each other, and to burn each other.Only a little while ago, a British clergyman mur-133dered his wife. Only a little while ago, an AmericanProtestant clergyman whipped his boy to death be-cause the boy refused to say a prayer.The Rev. Mr. Crowley not only believed the Bible,but was licensed to expound it. He had been"called" to the ministry, and upon his head hadbeen laid the holy hands; and yet, he deliberatelystarved orphans, and while looking upon theirsunken eyes and hollow cheeks, sung pious hymnsand quoted with great unction: "Suffer little chil-"dren to come unto me."As a matter of fact, in the last twenty years,more money has been stolen by Christian cashiers,Christian presidents, Christian directors, Christiantrustees and Christian statesmen, than by all otherconvicts in all the penitentiaries in all the Christianworld.The assassin of Henry the Fourth was a Bible readerand a Bible believer. The instigators of the massacreof St. Bartholomew were believers in your sacredScriptures. The men who invested their money in theslave-trade believed themselves filled with the HolyGhost, and read with rapture the Psalms of David andthe Sermon on the Mount. The murderers of ScotchPresbyterians were believers in Revelation, and the134Presbyterians, when they murdered others, were alsobelievers. Nearly every man who expiates a crimeupon the gallows is a believer in the Bible. For athousand years, the daggers of assassination and theswords of war were blest by priests—by the believersin the sacred Scriptures. The assassin of PresidentGarfield is a believer in the Bible, a hater of infidelity,a believer in personal inspiration, and he expects in afew weeks to join the winged and redeemed inheaven.If a man would follow, to-day, the teachings of theOld Testament, he would be a criminal. If he wouldfollow strictly the teachings of the New, he would beinsane.FOURTH INTERVIEW.Son. There is no devil.Mother. I know there is.Son. How do you know?Mother. Because they make pictures that look justlike him.Son. But, mother—Mother. Don't "mother" me! You are trying todisgrace your parents.Question. I want to ask you a few questions aboutMr. Talmage's fourth sermon against you, entitled:"The Meanness of Infidelity," in which he comparesyou to Jehoiakim, who had the temerity to throwsome of the writings of the weeping Jeremiah intothe fire?Answer. So far as I am concerned, I really re-gret that a second edition of Jeremiah's roll wasgotten out. It would have been far better for us all,if it had been left in ashes. There was nothing butcurses and prophecies of evil, in the sacred roll that138Jehoiakim burned. The Bible tells us that Jehovahbecame exceedingly wroth because of the destructionof this roll, and pronounced a curse upon Jehoiakimand upon Palestine. I presume it was on account ofthe burning of that roll that the king of Babylondestroyed the chosen people of God. It was onaccount of that sacrilege that the Lord said ofJehoiakim: "He shall have none to sit upon the"throne of David; and his dead body shall be cast"out in the day to the heat, and in the night to the"frost." Any one can see how much a dead bodywould suffer under such circumstances. Imagine aninfinitely wise, good and powerful God taking ven-geance on the corpse of a barbarian king! Whatjoy there must have been in heaven as the angelswatched the alternate melting and freezing of thedead body of Jehoiakim!Jeremiah was probably the most accomplishedcroaker of all time. Nothing satisfied him. He wasa prophetic pessimist,—an ancient Bourbon. Hewas only happy when predicting war, pestilence andfamine. No wonder Jehoiakim despised him, andhated all he wrote.One can easily see the character of Jeremiah fromthe following occurrence: When the Babylonians139had succeeded in taking Jerusalem, and in sackingthe city, Jeremiah was unfortunately taken prisoner;but Captain Nebuzaradan came to Jeremiah, and toldhim that he would let him go, because he had pro-phesied against his own country. He was regardedas a friend by the enemy.There was, at that time, as now, the old fightbetween the church and the civil power. Whenevera king failed to do what the priests wanted, theyimmediately prophesied overthrow, disaster, and de-feat. Whenever the kings would hearken to theirvoice, and would see to it that the priests had plentyto eat and drink and wear, then they all declaredthat Jehovah would love that king, would let him liveout all his days, and allow his son to reign in hisstead. It was simply the old conflict that is still beingwaged, and it will be carried on until universal civil-ization does away with priestcraft and superstition.The priests in the days of Jeremiah were the sameas now. They sought to rule the State. They pre-tended that, at their request, Jehovah would withholdor send the rain; that the seasons were within theirpower; that they with bitter words could blight thefields and curse the land with want and death. Theygloried then, as now, in the exhibition of God's wrath.140In prosperity, the priests were forgotten. Successscorned them; Famine flattered them; Health laughedat them; Pestilence prayed to them; Disaster wastheir only friend.These old prophets prophesied nothing but evil,and consequently, when anything bad happened, theyclaimed it as a fulfillment, and pointed with pride tothe fact that they had, weeks or months, or yearsbefore, foretold something of that kind. They werereally the originators of the phrase, "I told you so!"There was a good old Methodist class-leader thatlived down near a place called Liverpool, on theIllinois river. In the spring of 1861 the old man,telling his experience, among other things said, that hehad lived there by the river for more than thirtyyears, and he did not believe that a year had passedthat there were not hundreds of people during thehunting season shooting ducks on Sunday; that hehad told his wife thousands of times that no goodwould come of it; that evil would come of it; "And"now, said the old man, raising his voice with theimportance of the announcement, "war is upon us!"Question. Do you wish, as Mr. Talmage says, to de-stroy the Bible—to have all the copies burned to ashes?What do you wish to have done with the Bible?141Answer. I want the Bible treated exactly as wetreat other books—preserve the good and throwaway the foolish and the hurtful. I am fighting thedoctrine of inspiration. As long as it is believed thatthe Bible is inspired, that book is the master—nomind is free. With that belief, intellectual liberty isimpossible. With that belief, you can investigateonly at the risk of losing your soul. The Catholicshave a pope. Protestants laugh at them, and yet thepope is capable of intellectual advancement. Inaddition to this, the pope is mortal, and the churchcannot be afflicted with the same idiot forever. TheProtestants have a book for their pope. The bookcannot advance. Year after year, and century aftercentury, the book remains as ignorant as ever. It isonly made better by those who believe in its inspira-tion giving better meanings to the words than theirancestors did. In this way it may be said that theBible grows a little better.Why should we have a book for a master? Thatwhich otherwise might be a blessing, remains a curse.If every copy of the Bible were destroyed, all that isgood in that book would be reproduced in a singleday. Leave every copy of the Bible as it is, andhave every human being believe in its inspiration,142and intellectual liberty would cease to exist. Thewhole race, from that moment, would go back to-ward the night of intellectual death.The Bible would do more harm if more peoplereally believed it, and acted in accordance with itsteachings. Now and then a Freeman puts the knifeto the heart of his child. Now and then an assassinrelies upon some sacred passage; but, as a rule, fewmen believe the Bible to be absolutely true.There are about fifteen hundred million people inthe world. There are not two million who have readthe Bible through. There are not two hundredmillion who ever saw the Bible. There are not fivehundred million who ever heard that such a bookexists.Christianity is claimed to be a religion for allmankind. It was founded more than eighteen cen-turies ago; and yet, not one human being in threehas ever heard of it. As a matter of fact, for morethan fourteen centuries and-a-half after the crucifixionof Christ, this hemisphere was absolutely unknown.There was not a Christian in the world who knewthere was such a continent as ours, and all theinhabitants of this, the New World, were deprivedof the gospel for fourteen centuries and-a-half, and143knew nothing of its blessings until they were in-formed by Spanish murderers and marauders. Evenin the United States, Christianity is not keeping pacewith the increase of population. When we takeinto consideration that it is aided by the momentumof eighteen centuries, is it not wonderful that it is notto-day holding its own? The reason of this is, thatwe are beginning to understand the Scriptures. Weare beginningto see, and to see clearly, that they aresimply of human origin, and that the Bible bearsthe marks of the barbarians who wrote it. The besteducated among the clergy admit that we know butlittle as to the origin of the gospels; that we do notpositively know the author of one of them; that it isreally a matter of doubt as to who wrote the fivebooks attributed to Moses. They admit now, thatIsaiah was written by more than one person; thatSolomon's Song was not written by that king; thatJob is, in all probability, not a Jewish book; thatEcclesiastes must have been written by a Freethinker,and by one who had his doubts about the immortalityof the soul. The best biblical students of the so-called orthodox world now admit that several storieswere united to make the gospel of Saint Luke; thatHebrews is a selection from many fragments, and144that no human being, not afflicted with deliriumtremens, can understand the book of Revelation.I am not the only one engaged in the work ofdestruction. Every Protestant who expresses a doubtas to the genuineness of a passage, is destroying theBible. The gentlemen who have endeavored to treathell as a question of syntax, and to prove that eternalpunishment depends upon grammar, are helping tobring the Scriptures into contempt. Hundreds ofyears ago, the Catholics told the Protestant world thatit was dangerous to give the Bible to the people.The Catholics were right; the Protestants werewrong. To read is to think. To think is to investi-gate. To investigate is, finally, to deny. That bookshould have been read only by priests. Every copyshould have been under the lock and key of bishop,cardinal and pope. The common people should havereceived the Bible from the lips of the ministers.The world should have been kept in ignorance. Inthat way, and in that way only, could the pulpit havemaintained its power. He who teaches a childthe alphabet sows the seeds of heresy. I have livedto see the schoolhouse in many a village larger thanthe church. Every man who finds a fact, is theenemy of theology. Every man who expresses an145honest thought is a soldier in the army of intellectualliberty.Question. Mr. Talmage thinks that you laugh toomuch,—that you exhibit too much mirth, and that noone should smile at sacred things?Answer. The church has always feared ridicule.The minister despises laughter. He who builds uponignorance and awe, fears intelligence and mirth. Thetheologians always begin by saying: "Let us be"solemn." They know that credulity and awe aretwins. They also know that while Reason is thepilot of the soul, Humor carries the lamp. Whoeverhas the sense of humor fully developed, cannot, byany possibility, be an orthodox theologian. He wouldbe his own laughing stock. The most absurd stories,the most laughable miracles, read in a solemn, statelyway, sound to the ears of ignorance and awe liketruth. It has been the object of the church foreighteen hundred years to prevent laughter.A smile is the dawn of a doubt.Ministers are always talking about death, andcoffins, and dust, and worms,—the cross in this life,and the fires of another. They have been theenemies of human happiness. They hate to hear146even the laughter of children. There seems to havebeen a bond of sympathy between divinity anddyspepsia, between theology and indigestion. Thereis a certain pious hatred of pleasure, and those whohave been "born again" are expected to despise"the transitory joys of this fleeting life." In this,they follow the example of their prophets, of whomthey proudly say: "They never smiled."Whoever laughs at a holy falsehood, is called a"scoffer." Whoever gives vent to his natural feel-ings is regarded as a "blasphemer," and whoeverexamines the Bible as he examines other books, andrelies upon his reason to interpret it, is denouncedas a "reprobate."Let us respect the truth, let us laugh at miracles,and above all, let us be candid with each other.'Question. Mr. Talmage charges that you have, inyour lectures, satirized your early home; that youhave described with bitterness the Sundays that wereforced upon you in your youth; and that in variousways you have denounced your father as a "tyrant,"or a "bigot," or a "fool"?Answer. I have described the manner in whichSunday was kept when I was a boy. My father for147many years regarded the Sabbath as a sacred day.We kept Sunday as most other Christians did. I thinkthat my father made a mistake about that day. Ihave no doubt he was honest about it, and reallybelieved that it was pleasing to God for him to keepthe Sabbath as he did.I think that Sunday should not be a day of gloom,of silence and despair, or a day in which to hear thatthe chances are largely in favor of your being eternallydamned. That day, in my opinion, should be one ofjoy; a day to get acquainted with your wife andchildren; a day to visit the woods, or the sea, or themurmuring stream; a day to gather flowers, to visitthe graves of your dead, to read old poems, oldletters, old books; a day to rekindle the fires offriendship and love.Mr. Talmage says that my father was a Christian,and he then proceeds to malign his memory. Itseems to me that a living Christian should at leasttell the truth about one who sleeps the silent sleepof death.I have said nothing, in any of my lectures, aboutmy father, or about my mother, or about any of myrelatives. I have not the egotism to bring themforward. They have nothing to do with the subject148in hand. That my father was mistaken upon thesubject of religion, I have no doubt. He was a good,a brave and honest man. I loved him living, andI love him dead. I never said to him an unkindword, and in my heart there never was of him anunkind thought. He was grand enough to say tome, that I had the same right to my opinion that hehad to his. He was great enough to tell me to readthe Bible for myself, to be honest with myself, and ifafter reading it I concluded it was not the word ofGod, that it was my duty to say so.My mother died when I was but a child; and fromthat day—the darkest of my life—her memory hasbeen within my heart a sacred thing, and I have felt,through all these years, her kisses on my lips.I know that my parents—if they are conscious now—do not wish me to honor them at the expense ofmy manhood. I know that neither my father nor mymother would have me sacrifice upon their graves myhonest thought. I know that I can only please them bybeing true to myself, by defending what I believe isgood, by attacking what I believe is bad. Yet this min-ister of Christ is cruel enough, and malicious enough,to attack the reputation of the dead. What he saysabout my father is utterly and unqualifiedly false.149Right here, it may be well enough for me to say,that long before my father died, he threw aside, asunworthy of a place in the mind of an intelligentman, the infamous dogma of eternal fire; that heregarded with abhorrence many passages in the OldTestament; that he believed man, in another world,would have the eternal opportunity of doing right,and that the pity of God would last as long as thesuffering of man. My father and my mother weregood, in spite of the Old Testament. They were mer-ciful, in spite of the one frightful doctrine in the New.They did not need the religion of Presbyterianism.Presbyterianism never made a human being better.If there is anything that will freeze the generouscurrent of the soul, it is Calvinism. If there is anycreed that will destroy charity, that will keep thetears of pity from the cheeks of men and women, itis Presbyterianism. If there is any doctrine calcu-lated to make man bigoted, unsympathetic, andcruel, it is the doctrine of predestination. Neithermy father, nor my mother, believed in the damnationof babes, nor in the inspiration of John Calvin.Mr. Talmage professes to be a Christian. Whateffect has the religion of Jesus Christ had upon him?Is he the product—the natural product—of Chris-150tianity? Does the real Christian violate the sanctityof death? Does the real Christian malign thememory of the dead? Does the good Christiandefame unanswering and unresisting dust?But why should I expect kindness from a Chris-tian? Can a minister be expected to treat withfairness a man whom his God intends to damn? Ifa good God is going to burn an infidel forever, inthe world to come, surely a Christian should havethe right to persecute him a little here.What right has a Christian to ask anybody to lovehis father, or mother, or wife, or child? Accordingto the gospels, Christ offered a reward to any onewho would desert his father or his mother. Heoffered a premium to gentlemen for leaving theirwives, and tried to bribe people to abandon theirlittle children. He offered them happiness in thisworld, and a hundred fold in the next, if they wouldturn a deaf ear to the supplications of a father, thebeseeching cry of a wife, and would leave the out-stretched arms of babes. They were not evenallowed to bury their fathers and their mothers. Atthat time they were expected to prefer Jesus to theirwives and children. And now an orthodox ministersays that a man ought not to express his honest151thoughts, because they do not happen to be in accordwith the belief of his father or mother.Suppose Mr. Talmage should read the Bible care-fully and without fear, and should come to the honestconclusion that it is not inspired, what course wouldhe pursue for the purpose of honoring his parents?Would he say, "I cannot tell the truth, I must lie,"for the purpose of shedding a halo of glory around"the memory of my mother"? Would he say: "Of"course, my father and mother would a thousand"times rather have their son a hypocritical Christian"than an honest, manly unbeliever"? This mightplease Mr. Talmage, and accord perfectly with hisview, but I prefer to say, that my father wished me tobe an honest man. If he is in "heaven" now, I amsure that he would rather hear me attack the"inspired" word of God, honestly and bravely, thanto hear me, in the solemn accents of hypocrisy, defendwhat I believe to be untrue.I may be mistaken in the estimate angels put uponhuman beings. It may be that God likes a pretendedfollower better than an honest, outspoken man—onewho is an infidel simply because he does not under-stand this God. But it seems to me, in my unregeneratecondition, touched and tainted as I am by original sin,152that a God of infinite power and wisdom ought to beable to make a man brave enough to have an opinionof his own. I cannot conceive of God taking anyparticular pride in any hypocrite he has ever made.Whatever he may say through his ministers, orwhatever the angels may repeat, a manly devilstands higher in my estimation than an unmanlyangel. I do not mean by this, that there are anyunmanly angels, neither do I pretend that thereare any manly devils. My meaning is this: If I havea Creator, I can only honor him by being true tomyself, and kind and just to my fellow-men. If I wishto shed lustre upon my father and mother, I canonly do so by being absolutely true to myself.Never will I lay the wreath of hypocrisy upon thetombs of those I love.Mr. Talmage takes the ground that we must defendthe religious belief of our parents. He seems toforget that all parents do not believe exactly alike,and that everybody has at least two parents. Now,suppose that the father is an infidel, and the mothera Christian, what must the son do? Must he "drive"the ploughshare of contempt through the grave of"the father," for the purpose of honoring the mother;or must he drive the ploughshare through the grave153of the mother to honor the father; or must he com-promise, and talk one way and believe another? IfMr. Talmage's doctrine is correct, only persons whohave no knowledge of their parents can have libertyof opinion. Foundlings would be the only freepeople. I do not suppose that Mr. Talmage wouldgo so far as to say that a child would be bound bythe religion of the person upon whose door-steps hewas found. If he does not, then over every foundlinghospital should be these words: "Home of Intel-"lectual Liberty."Question. Do you suppose that we will carenothing in the next world for those we loved in this?Is it worse in a man than in an angel, to care nothingfor his mother?Answer. According to Mr. Talmage, a man canbe perfectly happy in heaven, with his mother in hell.He will be so entranced with the society of Christ,that he will not even inquire what has become of hiswife. The Holy Ghost will keep him in such a stateof happy wonder, of ecstatic joy, that the names,even, of his children will never invade his memory.It may be that I am lacking in filial affection, butI would much rather be in hell, with my parents154in heaven, than be in heaven with my parents in hell.I think a thousand times more of my parents than Ido of Christ. They knew me, they worked for me,they loved me, and I can imagine no heaven, nostate of perfect bliss for me, in which they have noshare. If God hates me, because I love them,I cannot love him.I cannot truthfully say that I look forward with anygreat degree of joy, to meeting with Haggai andHabakkuk; with Jeremiah, Nehemiah, Obadiah,Zechariah or Zephaniah; with Ezekiel, Micah, orMalachi; or even with Jonah. From what littleI have read of their writings, I have not formed avery high opinion of the social qualities of thesegentlemen.I want to meet the persons I have known; and ifthere is another life, I want to meet the really andthe truly great—men who have been broad enough tobe tender, and great enough to be kind.Because I differ with my parents, because I amconvinced that my father was wrong in some ofhis religious opinions, Mr. Talmage insists that I dis-grace my parents. How did the Christian religioncommence? Did not the first disciples advocatetheories that their parents denied? Were they155not false,—in his sense of the word,—to theirfathers and mothers? How could there have beenany progress in this world, if children had notgone beyond their parents? Do you consider thatthe inventor of a steel plow cast a slur upon hisfather who scratched the ground with a woodenone? I do not consider that an invention by theson is a slander upon the father; I regard eachinvention simply as an improvement; and everyfather should be exceedingly proud of an ingeniousson. If Mr. Talmage has a son, it will be impossiblefor him to honor his father except by differing withhim.It is very strange that Mr. Talmage, a believer inChrist, should object to any man for not loving hismother and his father, when his Master, accordingto the gospel of Saint Luke, says: "If any man"come to me, and hate not his father, and mother,"and wife, and children, and brethren, and sis-"ters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my"disciple."According to this, I have to make my choice be-tween my wife, my children, and Jesus Christ. I haveconcluded to stand by my folks—both in this world,and in "the world to come."156Question. Mr. Talmage asks you whether, in yourjudgment, the Bible was a good, or an evil, to yourparents?Answer. I think it was an evil. The worst thingabout my father was his religion. He would havebeen far happier, in my judgment, without it. Ithink I get more real joy out of life than he did.He was a man of a very great and tender heart. Hewas continually thinking—for many years of hislife—of the thousands and thousands going down toeternal fire. That doctrine filled his days withgloom, and his eyes with tears. I think that myfather and mother would have been far happier hadthey believed as I do. How any one can get anyjoy out of the Christian religion is past my compre-hension. If that religion is true, hundreds of mil-lions are now in hell, and thousands of millions yetunborn will be. How such a fact can form any partof the "glad tidings of great joy," is amazing to me.It is impossible for me to love a being who wouldcreate countless millions for eternal pain. It isimpossible for me to worship the God of the Bible,or the God of Calvin, or the God of the WestminsterCatechism.157Question. I see that Mr. Talmage challenges youto read the fourteenth chapter of Saint John. Areyou willing to accept the challenge; or have youever read that chapter?Answer. I do not claim to be very courageous,but I have read that chapter, and am very glad thatMr. Talmage has called attention to it. Accordingto the gospels, Christ did many miracles. He healedthe sick, gave sight to the blind, made the lamewalk, and raised the dead. In the fourteenth chapterof Saint John, twelfth verse, I find the following:"Verily, verily, I say unto you: He that believeth"on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and"greater works than these shall he do, because I go"unto my Father."I am willing to accept that as a true test of abeliever. If Mr. Talmage really believes in JesusChrist, he ought to be able to do at least as greatmiracles as Christ is said to have done. Will Mr.Talmage have the kindness to read the fourteenthchapter of John, and then give me some proof, inaccordance with that chapter, that he is a believer inJesus Christ? Will he have the kindness to performa miracle?—for instance, produce a "local flood,"make a worm to smite a gourd, or "prepare a fish"?158Can he do anything of that nature? Can he evencause a "vehement east wind"? What evidence,according to the Bible, can Mr. Talmage give of hisbelief? How does he prove that he is a Christian?By hating infidels and maligning Christians? LetMr. Talmage furnish the evidence, according to thefourteenth chapter of Saint John, or forever afterhold his peace.He has my thanks for calling my attention to thefourteenth chapter of Saint John.Question. Mr. Talmage charges that you are at-tempting to destroy the "chief solace of the world,"without offering any substitute. How do you answerthis?Answer. If he calls Christianity the "chief solace"of the world," and if by Christianity he means that allwho do not believe in the inspiration of the Scrip-tures, and have no faith in Jesus Christ, are to beeternally damned, then I admit that I am doing thebest I can to take that "solace" from the humanheart. I do not believe that the Bible, when prop-erly understood, is, or ever has been, a comfort toany human being. Surely, no good man can becomforted by reading a book in which he finds that159a large majority of mankind have been sentenced toeternal fire. In the doctrine of total depravity thereis no "solace." In the doctrine of "election" there canbe no joy until the returns are in, and a majorityfound for you.Question. Mr. Talmage says that you are takingaway the world's medicines, and in place of anaes-thetics, in place of laudanum drops, you read anessay to the man in pain, on the absurdities of mor-phine and nervines in general.Answer. It is exactly the other way. I say, letus depend upon morphine, not upon prayer. Donot send for the minister—take a little laudanum.Do not read your Bible,—chloroform is better. Donot waste your time listening to meaningless ser-mons, but take real, genuine soporifics.I regard the discoverer of ether as a benefactor.I look upon every great surgeon as a blessing tomankind. I regard one doctor, skilled in his profes-sion, of more importance to the world than all theorthodox ministers.Mr. Talmage should remember that for hundredsof years, the church fought, with all its power, thescience of medicine. Priests used to cure diseases160by selling little pieces of paper covered with cabalisticmarks. They filled their treasuries by the sale ofholy water. They healed the sick by relics—the teethand ribs of saints, the finger-nails of departed wor-thies, and the hair of glorified virgins. Infidelitysaid: "Send for the doctor." Theology said: "Stick"to the priest." Infidelity,—that is to say, science,—said: "Vaccinate him." The priest said: "Pray;—"I will sell you a charm." The doctor was regardedas a man who was endeavoring to take from God hismeans of punishment. He was supposed to spikethe artillery of Jehovah, to wet the powder of theAlmighty, and to steal the flint from the musket ofheavenly retribution.Infidelity has never relied upon essays, it hasnever relied upon words, it has never relied uponprayers, it has never relied upon angels or gods; ithas relied upon the honest efforts of men and women.It has relied upon investigation, observation, experi-ence, and above all, upon human reason.We, in America, know how much prayers areworth. We have lately seen millions of people upontheir knees. What was the result?In the olden times, when a plague made its ap-pearance, the people fell upon their knees and died.161When pestilence came, they rushed to their ca-thedrals, they implored their priests—and died. Godhad no pity upon his ignorant children. At last,Science came to the rescue. Science,—not in theattitude of prayer, with closed eyes, but in the atti-tude of investigation, with open eyes,—looked for anddiscovered some of the laws of health. Sciencefound that cleanliness was far better than godliness. Itsaid: Do not spend your time in praying;—clean yourhouses, clean your streets, clean yourselves. This pest-ilence is not a punishment. Health is not simply a favorof the gods. Health depends upon conditions, andwhen the conditions are violated, disease is inevitable,and no God can save you. Health depends uponyour surroundings, and when these are favorable,the roses are in your cheeks.We find in the Old Testament that God gaveto Moses a thousand directions for ascertainingthe presence of leprosy. Yet it never occurredto this God to tell Moses how to cure the disease.Within the lids of the Old Testament, we have noinformation upon a subject of such vital importanceto mankind.It may, however, be claimed by Mr. Talmage, thatthis statement is a little too broad, and I will therefore162give one recipe that I find in the fourteenth chapterof Leviticus:"Then shall the priest command to take for him" that is to be cleansed two birds alive and clean, and"cedar wood, and scarlet, and hyssop; and the priest"shall command that one of the birds be killed in an"earthen vessel over running water. As for the"living bird, he shall take it, and the cedar wood,"and the scarlet, and the hyssop, and shall dip them"and the living bird in the blood of the bird that was"killed over the running water. And he shall"sprinkle upon him that is to be cleansed from the"leprosy seven times, and shall pronounce him clean,"and shall let the living bird loose into the open"field."Prophets were predicting evil—filling the countrywith their wails and cries, and yet it never occurredto them to tell one solitary thing of the slightestimportance to mankind. Why did not these inspiredmen tell us how to cure some of the diseases thathave decimated the world? Instead of spendingforty days and forty nights with Moses, telling himhow to build a large tent, and how to cut the gar-ments of priests, why did God not give him a littleuseful information in respect to the laws of health?163Mr. Talmage must remember that the church hasinvented no anodynes, no anaesthetics, no medicines,and has affected no cures. The doctors have notbeen inspired. All these useful things men havediscovered for themselves, aided by no prophet andby no divine Savior. Just to the extent that manhas depended upon the other world, he has failed tomake the best of this. Just in the proportion that hehas depended on his own efforts, he has advanced.The church has always said:"Consider the lilies of the field; they toil not,"neither do they spin." "Take no thought for the"morrow." Whereas, the real common sense of thisworld has said: "No matter whether lilies toil andspin, or not, if you would succeed, you must work;you must take thought for the morrow, you mustlook beyond the present day, you must provide foryour wife and your children."What can I be expected to give as a substitute forperdition? It is enough to show that it does notexist. What does a man want in place of a disease?Health. And what is better calculated to increasethe happiness of mankind than to know that thedoctrine of eternal pain is infinitely and absurdlyfalse?164Take theology from the world, and natural Loveremains, Science is still here, Music will not be lost,the page of History will still be open, the walls ofthe world will still be adorned with Art, and theniches rich with Sculpture.Take theology from the world, and we all shallhave a common hope,—and the fear of hell will beremoved from every human heart.Take theology from the world, and millions ofmen will be compelled to earn an honest living.Impudence will not tax credulity. The vampire ofhypocrisy will not suck the blood of honest toil.Take theology from the world, and the churchescan be schools, and the cathedrals universities.Take theology from the world, and the moneywasted on superstition will do away with want.Take theology from the world, and every brainwill find itself without a chain.There is a vast difference between what is calledinfidelity and theology.Infidelity is honest. When it reaches the confinesof reason, it says: "I know no further."Infidelity does not palm its guess upon an ignorantworld as a demonstration.165Infidelity proves nothing by slander—establishesnothing by abuse.Infidelity has nothing to hide. It has no "holy"of holies," except the abode of truth. It has nocurtain that the hand of investigation has not theright to draw aside. It lives in the cloudless light,in the very noon, of human eyes.Infidelity has no bible to be blasphemed. It doesnot cringe before an angry God.Infidelity says to every man: Investigate foryourself. There is no punishment for unbelief.Infidelity asks no protection from legislatures. Itwants no man fined because he contradicts its doc-trines.Infidelity relies simply upon evidence—not evi-dence of the dead, but of the living.Infidelity has no infallible pope. It relies onlyupon infallible fact. It has no priest except theinterpreter of Nature. The universe is its church.Its bible is everything that is true. It implores everyman to verify every word for himself, and it imploreshim to say, if he does not believe it, that he doesnot.Infidelity does not fear contradiction. It is notafraid of being laughed at. It invites the scrutiny166of all doubters, of all unbelievers. It does not relyupon awe, but upon reason. It says to the wholeworld: It is dangerous not to think. It is dan-gerous not to be honest. It is dangerous not toinvestigate. It is dangerous not to follow whereyour reason leads.Infidelity requires every man to judge for himself.Infidelity preserves the manhood of man.Question. Mr. Talmage also says that you aretrying to put out the light-houses on the coast of thenext world; that you are "about to leave everybody"in darkness at the narrows of death"?Answer. There can be no necessity for theselight-houses, unless the God of Mr. Talmage hasplanted rocks and reefs within that unknown sea.If there is no hell, there is no need of any light-house on the shores of the next world; and onlythose are interested in keeping up these pretendedlight-houses who are paid for trimming invisiblewicks and supplying the lamps with allegorical oil.Mr. Talmage is one of these light-house keepers,and he knows that if it is ascertained that the coastis not dangerous, the light-house will be abandoned,and the keeper will have to find employment else-167where. As a matter of fact, every church is a use-less light-house. It warns us only against breakersthat do not exist. Whenever a mariner tells one ofthe keepers that there is no danger, then all thekeepers combine to destroy the reputation of thatmariner.No one has returned from the other world to tellus whether they have light-houses on that shore ornot; or whether the light-houses on this shore—oneof which Mr. Talmage is tending—have ever sent acheering ray across the sea.Nature has furnished every human being witha light more or less brilliant, more or less powerful.That light is Reason; and he who blows that lightout, is in utter darkness. It has been the business ofthe church for centuries to extinguish the lamp of themind, and to convince the people that their ownreason is utterly unreliable. The church has askedall men to rely only upon the light of the church.Every priest has been not only a light-house buta guide-board. He has threatened eternal damna-tion to all who travel on some other road. Theseguide-boards have been toll-gates, and the principalreason why the churches have wanted people to gotheir road is, that tolls might be collected. They168have regarded unbelievers as the owners of turnpikesdo people who go 'cross lots. The toll-gate manalways tells you that other roads are dangerous—filled with quagmires and quicksands.Every church is a kind of insurance society, andproposes, for a small premium, to keep you frometernal fire. Of course, the man who tells you thatthere is to be no fire, interferes with the business,and is denounced as a malicious meddler and blas-phemer. The fires of this world sustain the samerelation to insurance companies that the fires of thenext do to the churches.Mr. Talmage also insists that I am breaking up the"life-boats." Why should a ship built by infinitewisdom, by an infinite shipbuilder, carry life-boats?The reason we have life-boats now is, that we arenot entirely sure of the ship. We know that manhas not yet found out how to make a ship that cancertainly brave all the dangers of the deep. For thisreason we carry life-boats. But infinite wisdom mustsurely build ships that do not need life-boats. Is thereto be a wreck at last? Is God's ship to go down instorm and darkness? Will it be necessary at last toforsake his ship and depend upon life-boats?For my part, I do not wish to be rescued by a life-169boat. When the ship, bearing the whole world, goesdown, I am willing to go down with it—with mywife, with my children, and with those I have loved.I will not slip ashore in an orthodox canoe withsomebody else's folks,—I will stay with my own.What a picture is presented by the church! A few