Then the evidence proceeds:—“You would have funds in your hands, arising from some commercial transactions between you and the Havannah merchant or the Cadiz merchant; and Pedro Blanco, upon the coast of Africa would draw upon the credit of those funds, being authorised by the Cadiz or the Havannah merchant?—Yes; and if Pedro Blanco had drawn five shillings beyond that, we should have protested, and in some instances we have protested. With regard to the vessel alluded to in this Report, the Augusta, our part in that concern has been simply that which appears from one of the letters: that is to say, Pedro Martinez, of Cadiz, had made choice of Jennings to buy the vessel, and lent him money to buy the vessel; because Pedro Martinez wanted him to have a vessel in the trade for the purpose of taking his goods to their destination.”
Gentlemen, it is always satisfactory in a case of this kind to know, if a person be charged with any offence, as Mr. Zulueta was, that a copy of the evidence is sent to him; and when a person under such circumstances makes a statement, it is satisfactory to know that if that statement be true, it can be perfectly and easily proved by him, that there is no doubt about it. No doubt evidence must be given sufficient to charge the prisoner with the offence before he can be called upon for his defence; but if he makes a statement, it is satisfactory to know that, if there is a defence, it is absolutely in his power. Mr. Zulueta is one of a firm; there is no difficulty therefore in proving all their transactions. If he has letters limiting him to 500l., there are means of proving that beyond all question.
He goes on: “I have now described the three kinds of operations in which we have been concerned, and our knowledge of all of them terminated with the execution of the orders of our correspondents. We had nothing more to do than to follow the orders of the purchaser in shipping the goods. With regard to the purchase of the vessel by Jennings; Jennings is a man who has been employed some time by Martinez; he has served Martinez as a chartered captain, and Martinez having been satisfied with his services, agreed to lend himthat money on the security of the vessel, provided it did not exceed a certain amount; which was all the interference we had with it, just to see that a certain amount was not exceeded, 500l.or whatever it was.” “Then you were to furnish Captain Jennings with money for the purchase within a limited amount, say 500l., credit being given to him upon you by Pedro Martinez, of Cadiz?—That is just the point.” There is no doubt, gentlemen, as it would appear, that the letter I have read to you had been published, and was known to Mr. Zulueta, in which he writes and tells Jennings that they will not proceed in the purchase further than 500l.Certainly it was not known at that time that we should have the means of showing them that there was in fact no such limit to the purchase adopted, and that that letter could not be used for the purpose, for Mr. Zulueta does actually give 650l.for the purchase of that vessel.
He is then asked—“The Augusta being purchased by money advanced by your house for Martinez and Company, of Cadiz; and she then became the property of Pedro Martinez?—No, she became the property of Jennings; the money was lent to Jennings, and he bound himself by giving security on the vessel to answer for the amount. It is a mercantile operation, which is not unusual.” If it had been a mere loan and mortgage of the vessel, there can be no doubt of the fact; but it is for you to say whether that is the nature of the transaction. “You advanced the money to Captain Jennings for the purchase of the vessel, Jennings transferring the vessel to you as a security for the amount so advanced?—That is just the description of operation, which is a very general one in business.” Then he goes on to describe the transaction: “What is the object of such an operation?—I know very little, or almost next to nothing, of the operations in those parts of the world; but the object of such an operation I apprehend to be this: a vessel chartered with a stranger must be governed by the different clauses of the charter-party; the charterer must be limited to time and to places; and by Martinez having the vessel owned by a man with whom he could have a better understanding than with others, he might always send more advantageously articles from the Havannah to the Gallinas, and from here to the Gallinas. When I say articles, I mean legal articles.” “What advantage would there be in Mr. Jennings taking the articles rather as the owner than as captain under Martinez; was not he commander of the vessel as well as owner of the vessel?—Yes.” “He is made the owner, instead of being captain?—He is the owner as well as the captain of the vessel; he stands indebted to Martinez, and gives a bottomry bond for the vessel.” Gentlemen, the documents I have offered to you, which are the charter-party and the other papers relating to the vessel, do not amount to a bottomry bond; if there was one, there can be no difficulty in the prisoner proving it to you.
Then he is asked: “Does Mr. Jennings upon this transaction make all the freight to his own profit?—Certainly; whatever he does is to his own profit.” That certainly was not the fact; for he was obliged to give up the vessel whenever called upon. “He is not, then, an agent for Martinez?—No, he is a person to whom Martinez lends themoney to buy the vessel; whatever profit he derives is his own. Martinez has this advantage, which to a mercantile man is very perceptible, that he has got a charter with a man who stands in that relation towards him which gives him a sort of control over the vessel. If I, as a stranger, charter a vessel for Martinez, and he has spent one, two, or five days more in landing goods than the charter-party allows, I should make a claim for it; I should say, ‘You must keep to the charter.’ Now, when Jennings is indebted to him for the favour of a loan for the vessel, he is not upon a similar footing.” “So that he gets the vessel more under his own control?—Yes; in saying this I am putting an hypothetical case, but I do not know the mind of Martinez himself.”
Then he is asked: “You acted in this transaction merely as agent in the usual manner, as you would have acted for any house in any part of the world?—Exactly; if Martinez had told me, ‘You have got 500l.in your hands, pay that to Captain Jennings,’ I should have known nothing more of the transaction; I should have paid the money. But Martinez did not wish to go beyond a certain amount; and he says, ‘You exercise control, do not allow the man to pay more than 500l.for the vessel.’” Gentlemen, the letter treats it as a purchase for Zulueta. There may or may not be those directions; if there were, it is in his power to prove them; and it should be recollected that there was not time to get fresh instructions after the declaration that he could not exceed 500l.before he paid 650l.for it: it is only in a few days. If a man says, when charged with theft, “I bought the goods of such a person,” that is no evidence at all, unless, he proves that he bought them, which he may easily do if it is the fact. So here, if the prisoner says, though this letter, which purports to be the letter of instructions for the actual purchase, limits it to 500l., I received directions from Martinez to purchase at 650l., that is proved with perfect facility, for it must be by letter, and there are other persons in the firm who can prove it for him. “But beyond the purchase of the vessel and the shipment of the goods, the other arrangements and the subsequent transactions were entirely between Jennings and Martinez & Co.?—Most assuredly; except with the order of Martinez, I do not know how we could have done any thing with him in any way.” That of course will be proved.
Then it goes on: “Though the process of hypothecating a vessel may be usual between British merchants, is it usual to cover a transaction of Spanish slave trade with the British flag, by means of such an arrangement as that described to have taken place in the case of the Augusta?—In order to answer that question, it seems to me that it is fair that I should ask where is the transaction of covering, and where is the slave trade transaction? I know positively of my own knowledge that there is no such thing at all connected with the Augusta. If I had an opportunity, I could make my affidavit of that.” He is asked again: “Do you mean that you know that the Augusta was not engaged in any slaving transactions during the voyage upon which she left Liverpool?—Most assuredly not; in fact my testimony is hardly required of that, because every thing provesthat. When she was detained, it was never said that she was upon a slaving operation at all. Before she left this port, after she was bought, she was completely rendered useless for that purpose.” Now leagers and things of that kind must be taken to pieces, for she would not be allowed to have those on board; but the staves forming them were left on board in a state in which they might very soon have been made ready for use. When the question comes, whether she was engaged in a slave trading transaction, you are to examine the grounds of the prisoner’s denial with reference to the other parts of the testimony, and how far that can be relied upon.
This question is then put: “The charge is, that she was engaged in carrying goods to a person engaged in the slave trade; not that she was engaged in the slave trade herself?—I most certainly say, that I do not know whether the person is so engaged or not.” “Is it usual to cover a transaction of Spanish trade with the English flag?—I am not aware that a Spanish merchant is prohibited chartering an English vessel.” No doubt a Spanish merchant is not; but if an Englishman knows that that vessel is being chartered for a slave trading transaction, and he is one of the persons chartering her for that purpose, I have no hesitation in stating that he is guilty under this Act of Parliament, for he is chartering a vessel to accomplish that illegal object; and if merchants in this country would not accept bills drawn by slave traders, if they would not send goods from this country to be employed for the purpose—in fact, the trade could not be carried on at all. Then he is asked: “But is it lawful to employ the British flag to cover a vessel that is not owned by a British subject?—I say that that vessel is owned by a British subject.” “By whom?—By Captain Jennings.” It is for you to say whether that is a covert, or abonâ fideownership. “Was not the money with which she was purchased, the money of Pedro Martinez—It seems to me that English captains and English subjects are not prohibited from borrowing money from Spaniards; she was bought with money lent by Pedro Martinez to Captain Jennings for the purpose.” Of course there can be no difficulty in showing that that was lent by persons connected with that firm, if it is true; if it is not true, of course it will not be shown.
Then he is asked: “Do you mean that the money was a loan to Captain Jennings, at the time he paid it for the vessel?—It was a loan to Captain Jennings.” “Do you mean that the ship was then Captain Jennings’s property?—It was.” “Was it in his power to sell that ship at any port he pleased?—There was a mortgage upon the vessel.” “You have stated that yours is an agency trade?—It is so, and in the multitude of business, any one can understand that 20,000l.in 15 or 20 years, can only be a mere trifle in the business of any merchant, without laying claim to a large business; and in following that business, we have executed shipping orders.” “To what part of the coast of Africa has that business been chiefly conducted?—I believe almost exclusively to the Gallinas.” I believe you will find the Gallinas is simply a slave trading place, and nothing else. “Have the goods that Mr. Martinez has ordered to be sent to the Gallinas, been all sent to the same individual?—No, to different individuals;sometimes to Pedro Blanco, who was for a certain time an agent of Pedro Martinez on the coast, and sometimes we have sent a bill of lading drawn in this way to order; we have sent it to Pedro Martinez as a voucher against his account.” “Do you know the nature of the trade of Pedro Martinez at the Gallinas?—I know from general report that Don Pedro Martinez himself is supposed to deal in slaves, and I believe it is so.” All his goods have been sent to the Gallinas. “Is he known at the Havannah as a dealer in slaves?—I do not know; but I believe so. I do not know why it should not be known at the Havannah, if it is known in other parts.” “Is a ship which is hypothecated liable to be foreclosed at any moment at the discretion of the mortgagee?—It depends altogether upon the terms of the mortgage. If the mortgagee says, ‘You must give me the money when I ask for it,’ of course he must sell the vessel if he has not got any thing else.” Read on in the same way this document, “but he is not bound to give the money in any shape or form.” “He would always have to deduct whatever freight had been earned. When the security may be called upon to be effective, depends upon the nature of the transaction between the parties.” “Your house had nothing to do with any letters that might be put on board the Augusta after she sailed from this country?—Nothing whatever.” “The Augusta was seized on the coast of Africa on the charge of slave trading?—I believe that was the case.” “Did you not appeal against that condemnation?—Yes, there is an appeal by the owner.” “Before the Privy Council?—Yes.” “That appeal is not yet decided?—I believe not.” “You stated that your transactions with Africa for Martinez have amounted to about 20,000l.in 15 or 20 years. What has been the amount of your whole transactions with Blanco and Martinez of the Havannah during that period?—Perhaps 100,000l.or a larger sum. For instance, we have received more than 40 or 50 cargoes of sugar from the Havannah consigned to us, and cigars; and we have received bills of lading of specie, shipped at Mexico, to be sold here, and bar gold, and things of that sort.” “Have you reason to suppose that the whole of that large commerce is subservient to the carrying on of the slave trade by the house of Blanco & Martinez at the Havannah?—I do not know; I know that they have large transactions in general business. I know that a short time ago I got 40,000l.or 50,000l.of Spanish bonds in the market for Martinez. I know that he is a large speculator in Spanish bonds and in securities of state.” “Is that speculating in Spanish bonds on account of the house at Cadiz, or the house at Havannah?—Speaking technically, I should say it was on account of the Cadiz house.” “The question related to the commerce of the Havannah house?—Pedro Martinez is a Havannah merchant. But with regard to Havannah merchants, we have received large consignments of sugar, cochineal, and sometimes Mexican goods, brought to Havannah, and shipped to us here.” “In what course of business have the proceeds of those consignments been disposed of; have they gone in sending supplies to the coast of Africa?—Out of that large amount of money 22,000l.is the amount of all the goods that we have sent to the coast of Africa in 20 years.” “Of all descriptions?—Of all sorts and kinds; I have gonethrough the invoice-book and found them out.” “Have the proceeds generally been disposed of by drafts from the parties themselves to your house?—By the parties at Havannah, when the exchange turns to their advantage.” “Have you reason to suppose that a large portion of the trade that they carry on at the Havannah is the slave trade?—I had no reason to know any thing of the kind; I have known more of their transactions with the slave trade since these things have been mooted than I ever knew before; I have had more knowledge of these things lately than I ever had in my life before; and when I say ‘I,’ I beg to state that I ought to state ‘we,’ for all my partners are in the same situation.” “Have you been employed by the house at the Havannah to ship manufactured goods from this country to Havannah, suitable for the African trade?—We have sometimes shipped goods to the Havannah of the same kind as those that were in the Augusta; cotton goods and other things of that sort.” “Has that been recently?—In the course of our operations.” “How many years ago?—In the course of these 15 or 20 years that we have been engaged in business with them; all that I could see in a moment by my books.” “Have you sent any goods of that description to the Havannah recently?—Not very recently; I think not for some years.” “Have you sent any goods of that description since you first began to send goods out direct to the coast of Africa?—They have been mixed; I cannot draw a distinction between the two destinations; some have gone to the Havannah, some to the Gallinas.” “Have those supplies of English manufactured goods, which heretofore went to the Havannah, to be used there for promoting the slave trade, been more recently sent direct from this country to the coast of Africa?—No, I do not think that is the case; I should think the contrary is more likely to be the case; but I think we have shipped in some months, or in some years, partly to the Havannah, and partly to the Gallinas.”
Then comes a statement as to the mode of carrying on the trade, which will be read to you, but I do not think it necessary to read it now. “Have you shipped English manufactured goods direct to the coast of Africa, on behalf of both those houses?—Such goods as were in the Augusta, I have shipped for one party only. With regard to the house of Blanco & Carvalho, and the house of Pedro Martinez & Co., with both of them I have carried on a general large business. But to Blanco & Carvalho I never shipped a single piece of goods of any kind, except some sugar mills to the Havannah; and with regard to the house of Pedro Martinez, we have shipped such goods as those by the Augusta.” “From your general knowledge of the trade of the house of Pedro Martinez & Co., is it your opinion that the goods which you so shipped to the coast of Africa were destined to be employed in the slave trade?—I do not know, they may be for any thing that I know.”
Now, gentlemen, I would humbly submit, that if they have that reason to know, that they do believe that the goods are so employed, and if they send the goods, it is not for them to shut their eyes and say, “I do not know.” It is like the case where a person receives stolen goods and no questions are asked, and he gives moneyin exchange for them. Such a person is as much guilty of receiving stolen goods, as if the person who brought them told him the fact. As to hundreds of persons whom you try for receiving stolen goods, they do not know, they cannot know positively that they are taken out of such a house; but they are delivered to them in such a way, or are concealed in such a way, that there is no doubt they were dishonestly come by, and that is as good evidence as if they had known where they were stolen. So it is not enough for a person to say, “I do not know; they may not for aught I know.” If he believes, and you are satisfied that he must have been aware of the fact, then the case is clear; it is no defence to say, “I shut my eyes, and do not know; they may be for aught I know.”
Then it is asked: “Has it come within your knowledge that the house of Martinez & Co. are exporters from Africa of the native produce of Africa?—No, because I never tried to get any knowledge of their transactions there of any sort.” “Have you ever received consignments from them, or on their behalf of palm oil, gold dust, or ivory, from the coast of Africa?—Never; we never have received any thing from the coast of Africa whatever. With regard to all these transactions, it will perhaps appear strange to the Committee, that I should not know more of the coast of Africa, having shipped things there; but if we had shipped to the amount of 100,000l.to the coast of Africa, or carried on any considerable trade there, we should certainly have known more about the coast of Africa; but in transactions of a very large amount, an invoice occasionally of about 2,000l.or 3,000l.of goods was a thing that we sent as a matter of course, and did not trouble our heads about, especially as the remuneration we got was a mere trifle, not of itself worth pursuing, if it had not been for the general business we had.”
Then the question is put: “Is there any other part of the evidence which has been given that you wish to observe upon?” and he answers, “It is asked here inquestion 5086, ‘Who was he?’ the answer is, ‘The name is mentioned in the Parliamentary Papers as being connected with the purchase of a slave vessel, Mr. Kidd; and it is mentioned in connexion with that of Mr. Zulueta, of London.’ Now, as to Mr. Kidd, the very first thing I ever knew or ever heard of his name was to see it here. I never heard of his name at all. I never had a letter from him or through him, or knew any thing of the man whatever. That is with regard to myself. With regard to my partners, I can say the same; I have been making inquiries about it. My father knew there was such a man upon the coast, but I did not know even that, though I have managed all this business. Our house never had a letter from the man, or knew any thing about him.” Then it is asked, “You have no connexion with Mr. Kidd in any way?—No, nor any knowledge of him. Then in the next answer it is said, ‘Zulueta, the gentleman in London, to whom the vessel was sent, and who sold her again to her former Spanish owner, is a name well known on the coast in connexion with the slave trade?’ Now what is known on the coast I really cannot pretend to say, but I believe that not many persons can say that which I can say, that neither myself, nor my father, nor my grandfather, nor any body in our firm,has ever had any kind of interest of any sort, or derived any emolument or connexion from the slave trade. My father had at one time an interest in a bankrupt’s estate at the Havannah, upon which he was a creditor. There were some slaves on the estate, and they formed part of the property assignable to the creditors, and my father got the slaves assigned to him; because the other gentlemen and the creditors were not of the same opinion, he got them assigned to him, and made them free; and that is all the connexion we have ever had with any slaves in the world. I do not know how far that may be considered irrelevant to the point, but I state it because we are here mentioned three or four times as connected with slave dealers, as a name well known in connexion with the slave trade. That sort of statement is rather a difficult thing to deal with.” “If it is meant to insinuate by these observations that you ever had any other connexion with the slave trade, than being the shipping agent of goods which were sent to a man who was a dealer in slaves, you entirely deny it?—I assure the Committee, that although I have a general notion as to what interest Blanco and Martinez have in slaves, yet, if I was put upon my oath to make any particular statement, I really could not, because I do not know it. Of course I believe it; but my personal knowledge amounts only to that which the knowledge of what we read in a newspaper amounts to.”
Now, gentlemen, we know too the trade of these parties in the Gallinas. If the prisoner believed that these goods were sent out for the purpose of carrying on the slave trade, and he did send them out, and you are satisfied that the name of Jennings was used as a mere cover, and the whole affair shows his knowledge, then I apprehend he is guilty within this indictment; and it is no defence to say, “If I were put upon my oath, I could not swear that the parties were slave dealers, because I do not know it.” If these goods were sent out in order to accomplish the trading or dealing in slaves, if that was the object of it, the statute says it is criminal, and the party is liable to punishment, for that is all that is ever done in England: the parties who engage in the actual transactions must necessarily reside in Africa. What was meant to be prevented, was the sending any thing out from this coast that could be so used. It is not sufficient to say, “I believe these might be used for the purpose of slave trading:” that would not affect him.
Then he is asked, “There was nothing upon the face of the transactions which you had with those parties, which spoke of a connexion with traffic in slaves?—Nothing whatever.” Why, would any human being believe that there would be any thing said of the kind? That would of course be kept secret. The vessel would not reach her destination, if it was avowed that she was going out for the purpose of slave trading. “It is well known, that, fifty years ago, it was in the ordinary course of business in Cadiz to insure operations in slave trading. My house at that time were underwriters, and it was notorious that a policy of that kind would never enter the doors of our house; and nobody would come to offer such a thing to us upon any terms. It is notorious, both here and in Spain, that we set our faces distinctly against having any interest of any kind in the slave trade.”
Then it is put as a question: “It is further stated, ‘It appears that it is a regular thing sending vessels to him, that is to Mr. Zulueta; if they come to England to him, he sends them to Cadiz, and they get out again to the Havannah and come again into the trade.’ Have you any observation to make upon that?—It is all untrue, the whole of it; I never received a vessel from those gentlemen; there has been nothing of the kind.”
The question is: “Have you any thing further to state upon the subject?—There are several things I have marked; for instance, such as this, ‘You are not bound to suppose that a man will make a bad use of that which he purchases.’ If I wished to put my statement upon that footing, I should have done with it in a moment, for I knew nothing of the use they were put to. I bought goods, but as to what use was made of them I knew nothing whatever. But that is not the position which I wish to assume. It is said here, that we sent goods or vessels to Pedro Blanco. To that I say, that we never sent either goods or vessels to Pedro Blanco.” Now that is certainly very extraordinary, for a very little while before, when the question was put to him, “Have the goods that Mr. Martinez has ordered to be sent to the Gallinas been all sent to the same individual?” he answered “No, to different individuals, sometimes to Pedro Blanco, who was for a certain time an agent of Pedro Martinez.” Then here he says, “We never sent goods or vessels to Pedro Blanco.” “In answer toQuestion 5474, it is said by Mr. Macaulay, ‘I stated, that it appears that it is a regular thing sending vessels to him, that is to Mr. Zulueta; if they come to England to him he sends them to Cadiz, and they get out again to the Havannah and come again into the trade. My answer was intended to describe only the course of that particular transaction, and not to apply to any other case.’ I never received a single vessel from the coast of Africa at any time, nor any body for us.” “Then that statement is entirely untrue?—Totally, from beginning to end; we never did so; and nobody for us, and nobody to our knowledge, or with our connivance; I deny it in the most distinct manner. In answer toQuestion 5487, Mr. Macaulay is asked, ‘Have you any thing further to say with regard to the connexion of Zulueta with the slave trade?’ The answer is, ‘I would refer to his connexion with the Gollupchik, which was lately captured. In that case it appeared that the vessel went out direct to the Gallinas from London.’ That is the same vessel as the Augusta, which I have already explained; it formerly bore the name of Gollupchik.” Then the Chairman says, “Have you been concerned in the purchase of vessels frequently for Pedro Martinez or Pedro Blanco?—We have sometimes bought such vessels here as we could resell at the Havannah, such as the Arrogante, which we have bought.” “Upon orders?—Partly on orders, and sometimes on our own account on speculation.” “For what particular trade were they calculated when they reached the Havannah?—I think for the same trade which they were calculated for when they were sold here.” “For the conveyance of merchandise?” The answer is, “As well as anything else. They were sold here publicly.” There is no doubt that vessels which arefitted for carrying goods may also be adapted for carrying slaves. Then Mr.Forsterasks the question, “If it was legal for them to be sold here, you considered that it was legal for you to buy them?—I never had any doubt of the legality of buying here, or of selling them again afterwards.” “Mr.Wood. But the questions appertaining to the carrying on of the slave trade do not confine themselves within strictly legal grounds, but they have other more important considerations attaching to them?—As to that point there may be a difference of opinion; I would be very sorry indeed, for the sake of catching the approval of other persons, to make a disclaimer of any particular set of opinions whatever; but I believe the only point with which the Committee have to do, is the legal point. As to the moral point, it seems to me, that I am to judge of that; upon that point, I think I have stated quite enough, having stated distinctly that I never had any connexion, nor derived any profit from the slave trade whatever.”
There are then several questions: in answer to which he states, “That he never had any thing to do with slave transactions.” Those I leave to my learned friend to read. Thenquestion 10451is, “Had you ever employed Jennings before?—Jennings had had charge of vessels before, chartered by Martinez, and hence the connexion between Martinez and Jennings. There are some captains in all trades that make a great deal of difficulty about every thing, and others that do not; of course merchants like to deal with those that do not, more than those that do.” Then the Chairman says: “It would appear fromQuestion 5087, that your name is supposed to have been mentioned in a Parliamentary Paper as connected with a slave trade transaction. Will you refer to page 38, in Class B, Paper of 1839 and 1840, which is the place referred to in the answer, and see if there is any trace of your name in that transaction?—I do not find my own name there; I only find an allusion at the bottom to the name of Pedro Martinez, but in a manner in no way connected with me, and stating a circumstance which I never knew. InQuestion 7965*, it is stated, ‘The Augusta had touched at Cadiz on her way out from England?’—The answer is, ‘Yes, and landed part of her cargo at Cadiz, although it was consigned to be delivered at Gallinas.’ Now Captain Hill, who has given this answer, must have known why she touched at Cadiz, and why she discharged part of her cargo; for it must be in the log-book of the vessel. It was because she was nearly wrecked in her passage; she put into Cadiz in distress; and there she landed a part of her cargo, which was tobacco which was rotten, and sold for the benefit of the underwriters. Now that has not been stated here; but I think Captain Hill must have known it, because it is in the log-book of the vessel which he took.” “And the log-book he must have read?—I should think so; because if he has not done that he has done nothing. All I mean to say is, that it is anex partestatement.” “It was not intended when she left England that she should put into Cadiz?—Most certainly not; all the facts of the case show that she went there because she was obliged. I have not seen the log-book, but it must be there; because in the log-book the captain is bound to enter those things, and whoever captured thevessel must have seen the log-book of course. In answer toQuestion 7967*, it is said, ‘Messrs. Zulueta must be aware that it is contrary to law to act as agents, or otherwise, for the shipment of goods that are to be employed in the slave trade; they were bound to do nothing illegal; they are merchants residing in England, and they must conform themselves to the laws of England, and they cannot by the laws of England plead ignorance of those laws.’ Now I and my partners are British subjects, and therefore we are bound by the law, and we must obey the law; and I say that to endeavour to elude the law is criminal in my estimation of things. In the answer toQuestion 7970*, it is stated, ‘I have endeavoured to be particular in making it appear that this vessel was chartered to a place where there were no constituted authorities.’ I think that in the Gallinas there are constituted authorities. It is the first time that I ever heard that it is illegal for any merchant to ship goods for any places without ascertaining beforehand whether there are constituted authorities there. I believe that if they like to send goods to any place they may do it; and as to the fact of there being constituted authorities in the place or not, I do not see what that has to do with the question; besides, there have been such things as treaties made with persons at the Gallinas, so that there must be some constituted authorities there. But I do not know why I should be called upon to know whether there are constituted authorities at the port or not. Then it is stated, in answer toQuestion 7971*, ‘As far as I am able to give my own opinion, I believe that Messrs. Zulueta were perfectly criminal; at least they had a knowledge of what they were doing. I think I am borne out in that by the secrecy they have endeavoured to pursue in putting in a false owner.’” Then in answer to that observation Mr. Zulueta says, “I have answered all that before: I state again, that all the secrecy and mystery of the thing lies in supposing other things different from what appear. Then it is said, ‘In fact there can be no want of evidence to show that Messrs. Zulueta had for a length of time been agents to slave dealers.’ Mr. Blanco and Mr. Martinez may have been engaged, as I have stated, in slave operations; and I have stated that we conducted their general business here.”
Mr.Forsterthen asks: “Is not Pedro Blanco a partner in a commercial house at the Havannah, who are general merchants?—Yes, I have stated that before.”
“CaptainFitzroy.] Have you ever discounted any bill drawn by Pedro Blanco on Pedro Martinez & Co. for goods delivered for them on the African coast at the Gallinas?—I have accepted bills drawn by Pedro Blanco and others from the Gallinas upon our house, and paid them to the order of several houses in Sierra Leone and houses in London. I have paid them in money that I had in my hands resulting from the general transactions of business which I have explained. But discounting would be this, if I had paid those acceptances before they were due, and received some consideration for them; that I never did, but I might have done it in the case of these bills.” “Were those bills negotiated through your hands in payment of goods delivered at the Gallinas?—No; they were drawngenerally with the advice attached to them, saying, I have drawn a thousand pounds upon you for account of Blanco and Carvalho, or Blanco & Co., at the Havannah.
“Mr.Wood.] By whose orders were you desired to honour it; was it by the order of Pedro Blanco at the Gallinas?—No; by the house at the Havannah, or by the house at Cadiz; sometimes the one and sometimes the other. Blanco had a house some time ago in Malaga, as a general merchant, occupied in shipping the fruits of the country and oil to the United States, &c. &c. In answer toQuestion 7961*, the following is stated:—‘In one of these letters, dated Cadiz, 30th of November, 1840, is a paragraph to the following effect:—In a letter, dated London, the 21st instant, which I have just received from Messrs. Zulueta & Co., merchants in London, I had the pleasure of receiving a bill drawn by you on them for 250l., which I this day place to their credit, waiting your advice of the same.’ There is here certainly a mistranslation of some kind, because it says that this man receives a bill upon us, and credits it to us, which is, of course, contradictory in the very terms of it; because, if the bill was remitted to this man upon us, he would have debited it to us, and not credited it.”—I believe it is perfectly consistent when the letter is produced.—“But altogether there is some confusion about it; I suppose arising from the mistranslation of the documents, because the fact is this, the bill is one of the bills I have already mentioned, drawn from the Gallinas upon ourselves, to the order of a third party. It is a bill drawn at the Gallinas upon ourselves, on account of the credit, and therefore it could never have been received by the person in Cadiz.” That would be explained by a former answer, in which he says, he had sometimes sent bills of lading on which he had accepted a bill drawn from him on the Gallinas, and sent it to the house at Cadiz. He would have just said, This is a bill drawn upon me from Gallinas; I have accepted the bill, and placed it to your credit.
Question 10459is: “Can you give the Committee any information upon this: ‘The other letters,’ nine of them, ‘were all on slave business: not a word of any innocent trade, but the whole directing how slaves were to be shipped on board various vessels.’ How do you account for this vessel carrying letters upon slave business?—I account for it in this way. First of all, it is impossible for us to answer here what letters will be put on board a vessel at Cadiz; but there is very seldom any communication between Cadiz and the Gallinas; whatever letters there were must have gone by such random occasions as arose. As to the fact that whoever wrote those letters is engaged in the slave trade, the letters will speak for themselves.”
“Chairman.] Those letters were not prepared in the expectation of the arrival of this vessel, because this vessel was not destined to that port, and was only driven there by stress of weather?—Most certainly. I will add one circumstance in proof of that. The vessel was supposed to have been lost, from the circumstance of a boat having been found upon the coast with the name of T. Jennings upon it, and it was supposed that it was a boat belonging to the vessel; it was, in fact, a boat from the vessel, but the vessel had not beenlost; therefore the vessel was quite unexpected in Cadiz by every soul. It went there from stress of weather and nothing more. Then it is said in answer toQuestion 7972*, ‘I think the papers are quite conclusive to the mind of any man that Zulueta was cognizant of what he was doing; but as far as it is an illegal transaction, it is not for me to judge; but the Judge of the Vice-Admiralty Court of Sierra Leone did think it illegal, and condemned the vessel; and moreover, the man who is put forward as captain and owner did not defend the vessel on her trial.’ Now, as to the statement of his being a false owner, I have already stated that he was not. But then, again, with regard to the other part of the business, the man did not defend it, because he was prevented from defending it.”
With respect to the first part of that answer—it is stated that she put into Cadiz from stress of weather—the evidence I shall lay before you is, that when she received injury from the weather (and there is no doubt there was a storm), she was within two days sail of Cork, and 18 or 19 days from Cadiz. The crew actually resisted; they did not mutiny, but they opposed going to Cadiz; and it was only on his making the arrangement that those persons should be discharged at Cadiz, that they consented to go on. My version, therefore, of the affair is, that she put into Cadiz, not from stress of weather, but from other reasons. Ultimately she got there, and there were certain letters put on board there when she was fortunate enough to get there, addressed to Martinez & Co., who were engaged in this transaction, who, according to appearance, were actually charterers of the vessel for Zulueta & Co., who gave directions where those goods that were on board were to go.
It appears that there was an objection to answer the question at the moment, on whom the bills were drawn, and it was deferred to the following day. On the next day he appeared again, when the Chairman says, “The Committee understand that you have some further observations to make upon the evidence which has been given with reference to your house?” The answer is, “With reference to the destination of the Augusta, from Liverpool to Gallinas, and the fact of its having put into Cadiz unforeseen, and unpremeditated altogether, in consequence of stress of weather, I omitted to mention a circumstance which will put the thing beyond doubt, and it is this: an insurance was made at Lloyd’s from Liverpool to the Gallinas, and it is well known that, of course, we should have forfeited the insurance by going to any other port, except from the peril of the sea; and the British consul at Cadiz is well aware of the circumstance, because he is Lloyd’s agent there; and therefore he had to interfere in the whole proceeding; without his sanction nothing could have been done. We have called upon the underwriters upon that account, and it has been paid, and which would not have been paid without its being proved. I stated yesterday that the transactions of my house with Pedro Martinez & Co. of the Havannah, with Blanco & Carvalho of the Havannah, and with Pedro Martinez of Cadiz, had amounted in the 20 years to 100,000l.I was afraid of over rating the amount, but on reference to the books of the house, I find that our transactions with them in 20 years have amounted to400,000l., out of which the 22,000l.that was mentioned is the whole amount of goods that have been shipped by their orders for the coast of Africa.” No doubt, gentlemen, that is a very serious answer when you have this fact as coming within general knowledge: it was stated that beyond doubt they dealt in slaves, and that the whole amount of exports from Africa, as arising out of transactions to the amount of 400,000l.is stated to be 22,000l.; and that amount of goods from Africa would, no doubt, be in repayment for the same transactions. “Can you state how much of the 22,000l.has accrued within any given period; is it distributed equally over the whole 20 years, or has it grown up in the last four or five years?—In the last few years it has decreased, but otherwise it is spread over the whole number of years. In such a length of time it forms to our minds a mere speck. In the last six months our transactions with the house of Pedro Martinez of Cadiz amount to already 30,000l., and with Pedro Martinez of the Havannah, to nearly the same amount. With the house of Pedro Blanco & Co. of the Havannah, the amount has been 15,000l.for what has passed in the last six months, and with the houses generally at Cuba, throughout the island, it amounts to 100,000l.altogether, arising entirely from cargoes of sugar, and from tobacco, and remittance of bills from there in carrying on banking operations, upon which they draw again, which are negotiated in the Havannah and sent to houses in London to cash, and remittances of drafts on the Spanish treasury at the Havannah, and bills of lading of specie and bullion, and such things from Mexico. I state these things only to show the nature of our trade, and I have been particular, because as these are large amounts I wish to show what they arise from. Another fact escaped my attention yesterday, and it is this, that Don Pedro Martinez is owner of several large vessels of 300 tons and 400 tons, which are in the trade of sugar, tobacco, and such things, with us, in England and with Cadiz.” I believe the cargo on board the Augusta was worth about 5,000l.; I do not know whether this may be considered as part of this or not; you will judge whether they are to be attributed or not to Captain Jennings. Then he says, he has bought other vessels:—“There was the Star, Captain Jennings. That vessel was sent from here to the Gallinas, precisely the same as the Augusta has been sent. She delivered her cargo; she went from thence to Cape Coast, I believe, and from there to Madeira; she received a cargo of wheat; she came back to Spain, and she was sold at Liverpool to a third party, not Martinez, or any body connected with him; in fact, she was sold for very little. The object of that vessel was just the same as the Augusta, to maintain a legal trade with Gallinas; that is within my own knowledge.”
“Mr.Aldam.] What is the description of legal trade that was carried on?—Sending out goods to be sold at those places, and to go to other ports, not to carry any cargo from there to the Havannah.” “There has been a good deal of evidence, in which it has been stated that no legal trade is carried on with Gallinas?—I could not say what trade there is at the Gallinas of a legal nature; but I know that those vessels would have taken nothing, if there was nothing legal to take,from that place to the Havannah, or to any other place; I am aware that my answers upon this point must be deficient, because I am really very ignorant of the trade of the West Coast of Africa.” “Do you suppose that the vessels would be used to carry on a legal trade?—Most certainly I do; because persons find it worth while to send goods there constantly. The Committee will observe, that what the application of the goods is afterwards I cannot say, but I speak of the fact of the vessels having gone there with the intention of returning to the Havannah to bring a cargo of some description here, to pay a freight, and then to go again with the same kind of goods to Africa.”
“Chairman.] You have stated before, that you have cleared out for the Gallinas from Liverpool?—Yes.” “In carrying on operations of that kind, should you have ever thought it necessary to exercise any disguise as to what part of Africa you were clearing out for?—Not at all.” “You did not imagine, that in being the instrument of sending lawful goods to any part of Africa you were doing any thing which required concealment?—Nothing at all of the kind; and the proof of that is, that in the bills of entry in Liverpool any body could see our names as consignees of the vessel, and see entries made in our own names of every thing.”
Gentlemen, no doubt this is most important, and if this had been—it is for you to say whether it was—but if it had been a legal trade, would it not have appeared in the ship’s papers that this had been shipped by Messrs. Zulueta the charterers, and consigned to Mr. Martinez? In all this statement it is said, that it is beyond all question that this was not a transaction which ought to be concealed, for that their name would not have appeared in the cockets, the bill of lading, and every thing connected with it. Now, the fact is, that their name does not appear, for it only appears as shipped by Thomas Jennings. Now, Thomas Jennings is the captain; he makes a contract with Zulueta; he is not the person who ships the things; but in all the ship’s papers, and every thing connected with them, it all appears as shipped by Jennings, and their name is not introduced from beginning to end. “Is not there a document, officially published daily in London and at Liverpool, stating the daily entries at the Custom-house of all goods shipped, with the description of the goods, and the name of the port and of the shipper?—Yes, there is.” I am not aware of any such; but there is none with Mr. Zulueta’s name as the shipper on this vessel. “Is not this printed from time to time in the public papers?—It is in general circulation; there is hardly any merchant in Liverpool or in London who is not possessed of one. The Liverpool entries are reprinted in London, Liverpool being such an important place of business. The bill printed in London contains also Liverpool, Hull, and Bristol.” “So that every such transaction is perfectly notorious to every one?—Notorious to every one who chooses to read the public papers. There is another thing which escaped me till I came into the room this morning. As I have been in the business from my childhood, I know every thing that is going on an it. The Arrogante, after we sold her at the Havannah, was sent to Vera Cruz with a cargo of Spanish paper,spirits, raisins, &c., such as is sent for the South American trade, for the purpose of breaking the blockade of Vera Cruz, which she did break and went in. It was asked inQuestion 7147, whether the Augusta was equipped for the slave trade the second time; the answer was, ‘She was not.’ I wish to state, that before any goods were put on board of her, it was our express wish and order that every thing in her that was fit for that trade should be taken down, and the vessel put in the same condition as any other merchant vessel; and we should not have loaded any thing in her if that had not been done.” Beyond all question: she could not have gone out of the port of Liverpool if that had not been done; if she had been fitted up as a slave trader, she would have been seized before she went out of the port of Liverpool. “It is stated in the evidence that the Augusta was consigned to three notorious slave dealers; now we had never in our lives heard of the name of any one of the parties to whom she was consigned.” That is a most extraordinary thing. You will see how that is, if the letters are put in. Here are persons shipping to the Gallinas for two years; there are five persons there who are slave dealers, and nothing else; the prisoner has consigned goods there for twenty years, and yet he has never known the names of three of them as slave dealers. There is a difficulty in that answer, because he does not remember their names before he sent goods to them. He is asked, “You mean that the first time you heard their names was when the order to ship those goods was given to you?—Yes, and the circumstance of three consignees is a regular thing with distant consignments, such as South America and Africa. There is such an uncertainty attending the residence of parties in those places, that we invariably put a second and a third consignee in addition, in case the first should not be in the way.” Then Mr.Forstersays, “Some bills were referred to in your former evidence drawn by Mr. Pedro Blanco upon your house; have you any objection to put those bills before the Committee?—Not any. And I ought to state now, as I have been looking at the bills more closely, that they are not all drawn to the orders of Sierra Leone houses, but to the orders of other Spaniards, and those people endorsed them to the Sierra Leone houses. This does not alter the case materially, but for the sake of accuracy I mention it.” “You will put them in for the inspection of the Committee?—Certainly.—(The same were delivered in.)” Then it is said, “You only hesitated in giving the names yesterday from motives of delicacy, not from any motive of concealment?—Yes, I do not wish to withhold any thing; but I am indisposed to introduce any name. I have no wish to conceal any thing whatever. I have been consulting with my partners upon this subject, and I have a request to make to the Committee. Our position is one which is certainly an unpleasant one. I think that what I have stated will have proved to the satisfaction of the Committee that we have not in any way intended to elude the law.” Then there is a suggestion that it is not necessary I should state to you, that if there is any difficulty a new Act of Parliament should pass.
Gentlemen, I have read to you, I believe, every word of the statement of Mr. Zulueta which is material to the question. I wished toread it, because I wish that there should not be the slightest possible ground for stating that I conceal any thing which he had stated in his own favour. You are perfectly aware, that where you put in the statement of any person against him, you take it all; you examine into the truth of that which is said in his own favour, and the truth of that which makes against him; you examine the correctness or incorrectness of the whole from this. It will be for you to say, how far you are satisfied that he had the means of knowing, and did know, that Pedro Martinez was a slave trader, dealing in slaves at the Gallinas. If you gather from this that he knew it, then the next question you will have to decide will be,—Was this vessel going to the Gallinas for the purpose of supplying the dealers with goods, the materials for carrying on their business, and the materials for the use of the slaves while in that situation? for there is no doubt that that will be an offence within this Act of Parliament. You are to say, whether he did know it or not. The goods sent were partly iron pots used for boiling their rice while in barracoons. Then there are other goods fit for barter with reference to the exchange of slaves, that being, as far as any evidence can be laid before you, the only trade carried on at that place: you will say, whether they were intended to be used for that trade. The question is, Do you know of any other trade in the Gallinas but the slave trade? The prisoner did not know of any other trade; he did not pretend to know of any other. Gentlemen, undoubtedly you cannot look into the mind of any one; you must judge from the facts; and therefore one material question you will have to decide is, Was this trade carried on in the way in which a person would carry on a trade who knew it to be of such a nature—was it carried onbonâ fide, or with a most careful concealment of the name of Zulueta throughout the whole of this transaction? If you find there was concealment, you must undoubtedly, as far as you are able, ascertain whether there was a guilty knowledge. If a prisoner had been charged with receiving goods knowing them to be stolen, and it appeared that he had concealed them in the way in which an honest man would not, that is evidence; so if you are satisfied there was a course of concealment, and that the name of Jennings, the man who knew of the affair, was used to cover these goods, they being shipped in the name of Jennings; if you consider that in the fair ordinary course of trade that would be evidence of fraud, then you will consider whether that is not proof that they were sent for the purpose of slave trading. That is the question to which you must turn your attention. I will lay the evidence before you: I have opened a part of the evidence, it will be a question whether any more will be laid before you; if no more is laid before you, you must take the evidence which will be before you, and consider whether the goods being sent to these persons engaged in the slave trade, with the concealment, is not evidence of the intention of sending them. If the other evidence is laid before you, you will take the whole, under the direction of the learned Judge, into your consideration.
Gentlemen, there is one observation I ought to make before I close. My learned friend has thrown out the question, Who is the prosecutorin this case? It is quite immaterial, in point of law, who is the prosecutor; the question is, What is the evidence against the defendant? But you will not for a moment understand that the prosecutor wishes to conceal himself or his name. The name of the prosecutor is the attorney in the case, Sir George Stephen; he is the son of a gentleman whose name has been known as long as any attempt has existed in this country, as one deeply interested in the attempt to overthrow the slave trade, and cause its suppression; and he is the nephew of a man to whom undoubtedly I should say is due very great praise, it would be hardly too much to say the greatest praise, in removing the stain which rested upon this country—I mean Mr. Wilberforce. Sir George Stephen has no fear or apprehension upon the subject; he has felt it to be necessary and proper in his judgment, and the judgment of those with whom he is connected and with whom he has acted, that some person should stand forward to bear all the responsibility which rested upon any individual in bringing a case of this kind before you for your consideration. He has no objection to bear that responsibility; he has performed his duty in this respect. But that is quite immaterial to the question in this case, which is simply this,—Is the prisoner at the bar guilty or not guilty of that with which he is charged in this indictment? And I mention the name of Sir George Stephen, because he does not wish to shrink from the responsibility which rests upon him. You will attend only to the evidence, and upon the evidence you will give your verdict of guilty or not guilty. I am sure, if the prisoner is innocent, you will give that verdict with great satisfaction; but if he is guilty, you will not shrink from that important duty which rests upon you in giving a verdict—a verdict of the utmost importance to those human beings for whose protection you are now sitting. If he is innocent, no feeling of that description will influence you in giving a feather’s weight to the prosecution; on the other hand, if you feel that he is guilty, you will not shrink from saying so by your verdict.
Q.You were formerly the commander of a ship called the Saracen?—A.Yes, I commanded her on the coast of Africa.
From what time to what time? Did you command the Saracen on the 1st of October, 1837?—I commanded her from October, 1837, to June, 1841.
What was the general nature of the service you were engaged upon?—The protection of British commerce, and the prevention of the slave trade.
Mr. JusticeMaule. What was the Saracen?—She was a man-of-war, a brig.
A king’s ship?—Yes.
Mr. SerjeantTalfourd. Did you become acquainted in the course of that service with the river Gallinas?—Yes.
How far is the river Gallinas from Sierra Leone?—For large vessels navigating it is necessary to go round a large tract of shoals, which makes it 150 or 200 miles; but there is a nearer navigation for smaller ships and boats. It depends so much upon the draught of water of the vessel you are navigating.
Is there any town on the river Gallinas?—On the river Gallinas there are several small towns.
What is the nature of the population there?—The population of the Gallinas consists of the inhabitants, negroes, they are all blacks; and the European population are chiefly Spaniards.
Mr.Kelly. The European population is principally Spaniards?—Yes, chiefly so.
Mr. SerjeantTalfourd. At the time you first became acquainted with the river Gallinas, were there any barracoons there?—Yes.
How many barracoons werethere?—
Mr. JusticeMaule. When was this he is now speaking of?
Mr. SerjeantTalfourd. When was it?—The river Gallinas was part of my station in December, 1838; in fact, it was upon my station from December, 1838, till May, 1841; and I was constantly at Gallinas during that period.
Mr. JusticeMaule. When were you first at Gallinas?—I called there before that in 1837, but I did not land there.
Did you see if there were any barracoons there then?—I did not land there. I know there were barracoons from hearsay; and I know the slave trade was extensively carried on.
Mr.Kelly. Do not tell us any thing you know from hearsay.
Mr. SerjeantTalfourd. You did afterwards land there, and became acquainted with the establishmentsthere?—
Mr. JusticeMaule. Is it merely to ascertain the fact of the existence of barracoons there?
Mr. SerjeantTalfourd. No; they are destroyed now. They were destroyed by Captain Denman?—It was in consequence of arrangements made by Captain Denman. I was there when they were destroyed. I was there, and saw the whole slave establishments; there were six or seven of them.
When you first knew the Gallinas, were there slave establishments there?—I was merely cruizing off there to prevent the slave trade. The slave vessels took their cargoes from there, as I have every reason to believe.
Mr.Kelly. Have the kindness to confine yourself to what you know.
Mr. JusticeMaule. You have been ashore there?—Yes.
What did you see there?—The first time I was on shore there and saw the barracoons was in November,1840—
Mr.Kelly. There is no doubt of the fact of barracoons being there, and that they were destroyed.
—I was cruizing off there for two years for the purpose of preventing the slave trade; but I did not land to see them till 1840, and that was in November.
Mr. SerjeantTalfourd. At that time how many slave establishments were there at theGallinas?—
Mr.Kelly. Do you know it of your own knowledge? Let Captain Hill distinguish between what he saw and knows to be the fact, and what he has heard.
Mr. JusticeMaule. Barracoons seem now to be changed into slave establishments. Do you make any point of that?
Mr.Kelly. No, my Lord, I do not; it means the same thing.
Mr. JusticeMaule. Are these barracoons for the slaves?
Mr. SerjeantTalfourd. Are the barracoons used for the purpose of warehousing the slaves?—They are for confining the slaves before they are exported.
Is this a plan made by yourself? (handing a paper to the Witness.)—Yes, it is made from my recollection of the river; it has never been surveyed. I made it from my recollection of the spot.
Does it give a representation of the river Gallinas and the barracoons upon it?—Yes it does, to the best of my ability. Those places which are marked black are where the barracoons were, which were destroyed in consequence of Captain Denman and myself going into them and giving directions for that purpose.
It represents them as they were before they were destroyed?—Yes.
Just mention them one after the other, and whose they were.
Mr.Kelly. I do not know how my learned friend intends to show that this is evidence.
Mr. SerjeantTalfourd. That will be for your cross-examination.
Mr.Kelly. I do not wish to charge my Lord’s notes with a quantity of matter that is not evidence. How can this gentleman tell these were the properties of particular parties? How can he say, upon his oath, that these are the properties of particular parties?
Mr. SerjeantTalfourd. Do you know who the parties were who were the owners of these barracoons?—The first place we landed at was Angeline’s, called Dombocoro; to the best of my belief it was his. I may go into a house and not know who is the owner; but that it was Angeline’s I understood from himself.
Mr.Kelly. This I must object to. If my learned friend thinks it necessary to address any question to Captain Hill as to facts that took place, from which your Lordship or the Jury may infer that any particular individual was the owner of any particular place or places, I cannot object to it; but when it is sought to be given in evidence against Mr. Zulueta, who was never at the place in his life, and never saw any of the parties, and something is to be built upon the reputation that existed as to the property of these individuals, I submit to your Lordships that direct evidence should be given of the fact; and I must object to the question, what was generally understood as to the ownership of these barracoons. Any thing he saw, from which an inference may fairly be drawn, I cannot object to; but I do object to any thing he prefaces, by saying, “I understood so and so.”
Mr. SerjeantTalfourd. The mode of ascertaining who is theowner of any establishment, is by going there and seeing who is taken to be the owner.
Mr. JusticeWightman. I understood that Captain Hill had gone in there and seen some person there?—No; I learned at Dombocoro.
Mr.Kelly. That is not evidence.
Mr. JusticeMaule. If you wish to show that A. B. is the owner of any house, you must show it by specific evidence; but there is no point here as to parties being the owners. One is called Señor Antonio’s, and another by another name. I do not see why any dispute should be made about it. If you wish to charge the prisoner with the specific fact of a particular party being the owner of a building or piece of ground, it must be proved by legitimate evidence.
Mr.Kelly. I wish to deal fairly by my learned friend, and to save time, which is the object of us all. My learned friend, in his opening speech, stated that certain parties were notorious slave dealers: now what may be notorious to any gentleman who hears all the tittle-tattle that may be spoken at the place is one thing, but what was known to the prisoner is another thing. The notoriety there is not evidence against the prisoner. The question will arise, if the fact is proved, whether it was known to Mr. Zulueta in this country? Let us have the fact there, and not what was known there?
Mr. SerjeantTalfourd. How many barracoons were there at this time?—I had better explain that the barracoons are extensive buildings of themselves; and the buildings, necessary for the parties to live in to attend upon the slaves, are numerous. At Dombocoro there may be fifty or sixty houses, storehouses, and places for the people to live in who look after the slaves. Tiendo covers a very large space of ground.
Mr. JusticeMaule. I may take it that each barracoon is a slave building, and that there are storehouses for stores?—Yes; the barracoons themselves are like large barns to keep the slaves in, and they contain five or six hundred slaves sometimes.
Mr. SerjeantTalfourd. Are there any other buildings but the barracoons and the houses for the attendants?—At Dombocoro there are none other. At Tiendo there is a town just adjoining it: the slave establishment is towards the point. At Jaiera I saw nothing but the slave establishments. At Carmatiendo there is a large slave establishment, and the reputed owneris—
Mr.Kelly. Never mind the reputed owner.
Mr. JusticeMaule. Any body might prove that an island was called Juan Fernandez without proving that he was seized of it in fee.
Mr. SerjeantTalfourd. Is there any thing but a slave establishment there?—No, I saw nothing else: and the same at Camasuro; and I saw the same at Paisley: and at one or two of the islands there were some small slave establishments likewise.
Do you know of any other trade or commerce which is carried on there but the slave trade?—None other; and I think I was in the whole of the slave establishments I have mentioned. I went overthe whole of them before they were destroyed, and saw no signs of any trade but the slave trade.
Having been cruizing off there for some years, should you have known it if there had been any other commerce carried on but the slavetrade?—
Mr.Kelly. I object to that question, it is asking the witness to come to a conclusion, from being on the coast of Africa, that he had become acquainted with the whole of the commerce. I am quite sure that the last answer of the witness cannot be correct.
Mr. SerjeantTalfourd. I submit to your Lordships that my learned friend cannot be correct in stating that the witness is not correct.
Mr.Kelly. I will prove it.
Mr. JusticeMaule. I have taken down the substance of what he has been saying, and it is this: He mentions five or six places where there are barracoons with the appurtenances; and “except at one or two, where native towns are near, I saw no sign of any other trade but the slave trade.” You were cruizing off there to watch the trade?—Yes.
Did you know of any trade but the slave trade?—No, the native king told me there was no other.
Mr.Clarkson. Never mind what the native king told you.
Mr. JusticeMaule. We cannot even take the word of a king, so extreme is our repugnance to hearsay evidence.
Mr. SerjeantTalfourd. Do you know a merchant there of the name of Ignatio Rolo?—He was on board the Saracen for some two or three days. Captain Denman had taken a slavevessel—
Do you know of your own knowledge what his occupation was there?—I never saw him buy a slave, nor did I see him sell one; but as far as knowing the course of trade, I should say he was a slave dealer, and solely and only a slave dealer; but I never saw him buy one. Jaiera was his slave establishment, and there was no sign of any thing but the slave trade.
And there he resided himself?—I never saw him there. I understood from him that he did: in the first instance he denied it.
Mr.Kelly. Do not tell us what he denied. I must once for all take his Lordship’s opinion whether this course of evidence can be persisted in. I am extremely sorry to consume time, but it is essentially necessary for the interests of justice that the prisoner should be protected from answers of this kind. It seems that Captain Hill thinks it his duty, instead of answering the question put to him, to state any thing that occurs to his own mind.
Mr. JusticeMaule. I cannot say that he seems to give answers quite connected with the subject; but he is not so well acquainted with what we exclude in evidence as you are.
Mr.Kelly. I only wish once for all, if he would be good enough to understand, that he is not to repeat what he heard; what he saw no one can object to; what conversations he had with other people can form no ground of charge against a party not upon the spot. —I was speaking of a conversation I had with Ignatio Rolo himself, he acknowledged to me he lived there.
Mr. JusticeMaule. We cannot admit that.
Mr.Kelly. I am not blaming Captain Hill, but I am only reminding him of his duty as a witness not to repeat whatever he heard.
Mr. JusticeMaule. He has not stated whatever he learnt from any party: if you push that to the extreme point, how is a witness to be allowed to say that he was examined in Court by Mr. Kelly?
Mr.Kelly. I do not push it to that extent.
Mr. JusticeMaule. Did you see Ignatio Rolo in any occupation—No; the way I saw him was this, Captain Denman had seized a slave vessel, and he had sent it up in charge of a prize officer and crew.
Mr.Kelly. If I cannot induce Captain Hill to confine himself merely to answering the questions, I must object. It is singular that when your Lordship puts a question, and Captain Hill has answered it, he goes on to enter into a story about Captain Denman and a slave vessel. I object to that; we cannot go into evidence of what Captain Denman had done about a slave vessel; all he knows is mere rumour.
Mr. SerjeantTalfourd. When was it you first saw Ignatio Rolo?—I myself landed there in the month of November, a day or two previous to our going into the river Gallinas, in order to make some arrangements with the chiefs, owing to the interruption that had been offered to us.
Was there any establishment there called by his name?—None; but Jaiera was the name of the establishment.
Did you ever see him there?—No.
Mr. JusticeMaule. You saw him somewhere?—Yes, he came on board a slave vessel, and was there detained by the prize officer.
What is Ignatio Rolo?—To the best of my belief he is a Spaniard; an European, to the best of my knowledge. I never saw him in Spain.
Mr. SerjeantTalfourd. Do you know a person named Don José Alvarez there?—I was not personally acquainted with him; I only knew him by name.
Did you know a merchant named Don Ximenes?—I saw him at Sierra Leone; and I learnt fromhim—
Mr. JusticeMaule. Are you going to prove that the river Gallinas was a slave trading place?
Mr. SerjeantTalfourd. Yes, my Lord.
Mr. JusticeMaule. There is enough evidence of that.