Sir T. D. Acland.Mr. Aldam.Captain Fitzroy.Mr. Forster.Mr. W. Hamilton.Mr. Milnes.
Sir T. D. Acland.Mr. Aldam.Captain Fitzroy.
Sir T. D. Acland.Mr. Aldam.Captain Fitzroy.
Sir T. D. Acland.Mr. Aldam.Captain Fitzroy.
Mr. Forster.Mr. W. Hamilton.Mr. Milnes.
Mr. Forster.Mr. W. Hamilton.Mr. Milnes.
Mr. Forster.Mr. W. Hamilton.Mr. Milnes.
VISCOUNT SANDON, IN THE CHAIR.
Captain Henry Worsley Hill,R. N., called in; and examined.
7109.Chairman.] What has been your connexion with the coast of Africa?—I commanded the “Saracen” on the coast of Africa from October 1837 till January 1841.
7110. What part of the coast have you cruized along?—The first eight months I was in the Bight of Benin; after that I went to the Cape of Good Hope and Madagascar, returning to Sierra Leone in December 1838; and continuing on the coast between Cape Palmas and Portendique till June 1841.
7111. Has the character of the system of cruizing altered during that period?—On the Sierra Leone side, certainly. Latterly, we established a very close blockade.
7112. Have you been engaged in descents on the coast?—Yes, at Gallinas, and at Sea-bar.
7113. At Gallinas you were engaged with Captain Denman?—Yes.
7114. At Sea-bar, were you by yourself?—The “Ferret” was there likewise.
7115. What were the circumstances of your operations at Sea-bar?—I had had a boat blockading Sea-bar, where there was a noted slave factory, and my boat’s crew had required water, and on landing to procure water, the king, Harry Tucker, refused water without I paid for it at a most exorbitant rate, about a dollar a gallon he demanded; and I was authorized by the Governor of Sierra Leone to endeavour to effect a treaty, that had been sent out from the Home Government with the chiefs of that part of the coast. I landed forthe purpose of endeavouring to effect this treaty, and also to inquire into the cause of the king’s refusing my boat’s crew water. The slave factory belonging to Mr. François is close to the usual place of landing, being close to the water; it is at the southernmost entrance of the Sherboro’ River. On landing I found that every person had left the factory; after a short time, I succeeded in getting a messenger to go to the king, who was represented to be in the bush, and requested that he would come to see me, assuring him that I had come upon a friendly mission. He refused; I then wrote to him for the same purpose; after waiting some time, several people appeared at the borders of the wood, armed, and one man advanced and came to me, and told me that Mr. François, the slave merchant, and the king had armed the slaves for the purpose of coming down to attack us, but that they preferred giving themselves up to us, and going to Sierra Leone to be made free, and asking if I would receive them on board; I of course told them yes, as many as would come, and I think about fifty came down armed with muskets and cane knives. They procured for themselves a canoe; I had not room in my own boats for them. They represented that they had been very ill-used by the slave-factor, Mr. François, flogged and beaten, and kept in irons, and confined closely in the barracoons; and when they were in the boat they expressed their delight, by clapping their hands and singing in their country manner. I had determined upon destroying the barracoons, but I thought it better if I could induce the slaves to do it themselves, it would be setting a better example. Upon its being mentioned to the slave who could speak English (there was only one who could speak English), he mentioned it to the others, and two or three immediately volunteered from the troop, to go up and burn the barracoons and the factory. They went and set fire to it in about twenty places, and the place was destroyed. I was told afterwards that this was followed by another slave factory being burnt on the opposite side of the river the following day, by the slaves themselves.
7116. Who was this Mr. François?—He is a slave factor, who has resided a long time at Sea-bar; I believe he was once in the French navy as a foremast man, but I am not certain.
7117. Was he living under the protection of the native chief there?—He was living in the chief’s territory; therefore, I suppose he was there with his sanction and knowledge; I had been there before, and I had seen the chief in Mr. François’ house.
7118. Mr.Forster.] Do not you think it was setting rather a dangerous example to tell the natives to destroy property under such circumstances?—No, I thought I was setting a good example, or I should not have done it.
7119. You think they could fully appreciate the motives and views with which you acted?—Undoubtedly.
7120. Do the natives condemn the slave trade themselves?—They carry the slave trade on; if they did not carry it on, there would be no slave trade.
7121. Then on what ground of moral right could they account for your destroying this property for the reason that it was with theview of doing away with the slave trade, a trade which they do not consider morally wrong?—They can easily, I think, appreciate the view with which the slaves were armed to come down and attack Her Majesty’s boats, who went there with friendly intentions.
7122.Chairman.] Those whom you got to destroy the barracoons were slaves themselves?—They were slaves, who had been armed to come and attack us, and they came and placed themselves under British protection, and begged to be taken to Sierra Leone.
7123. You think they would understand why you sent them to destroy the means of imprisonment;—I think so, certainly.
7124. Mr.Forster.] You carried them to Sierra Leone?—I carried them to Sierra Leone, and entrusted them to the protection of the governor.
7125.Chairman.] Do you know any thing of the circumstances under which those slaves had come there?—They were Mr. François’ slaves, and I imagine they must have been purchased in the way in which all the slave factors purchase their slaves; they are brought down from the interior.
7126. Mr.Forster.] Have you given any similar advice to the native chiefs, or the natives, on any other part of the coast, to destroy the property of slave dealers?—I have advised the whole of the chiefs that I have had any communication with to discontinue the slave trade, the sale or barter of negroes to Europeans.
7127.Chairman.] Was there property in those barracoons that were destroyed?—There was very little property; I think the goods must have been removed from the slave factory some time previously.
7128. SirT. D. Acland.] The use of those barracoons was distinctly for the purpose of keeping up the traffic in slaves?—The slaves had been confined there, according to what I learned from those I received on board, on the previous night, to the number of between 300 and 400. There were a vast number of shackles and chains, with which they had been chained, and the slaves had been removed out of the barracoons on the approach of my boats.
7129. Therefore the property destroyed was only such as was used for the most criminal purpose?—There was no property destroyed but what was used for the slave trade. In fact, there was very little property besides the buildings; every thing had been removed.
7130. Mr.Forster.] You think the natives could draw the distinction between property of that description and other property which you yourself might feel inclined to respect?—I think the natives could draw the distinction between property intended for the slave trade, belonging to a foreign slave dealer who had settled in the country for the express purpose of carrying on the slave trade, which the natives know is contrary to the laws of his own country, and contrary to the laws of all Europe.
7131. But when they see those persons settle in their own country, with the sanction and under the protection of their chiefs, do you think that, under those circumstances, to teach them such a want of respect for property can have a beneficial tendency in the country generally, where it must have been witnessed by other natives, andknown to other natives besides those which you have mentioned as being engaged in this transaction?—I think it must have a beneficial effect on the natives of the country where it takes place.
7132.Chairman.] In doing this did you act under specific instructions, or upon your own responsibility?—Upon my own responsibility; I have received the approbation of the Admiralty.
7133. Did you receive any general instructions to attack slave factories wherever they were not under an European flag?—Not while I was on the coast.
7134. Mr.Forster.] Did you visit the Rio Nunez?—Yes.
7135. Do you know two chiefs there of the names of Sallafou and Sarra?—Sallafou is the chief of the Narrow country, and Sarra is the chief of the Kikandy country.
7136. Did you advise those chiefs to get possession of the goods of any slave vessel that might come within their reach, and any property that might be in them?—I think it is very likely that I advised those chiefs, while I was in their country, to discontinue the European slave trade and to prohibit slave vessels from coming to their country.
7137. But you did not advise them to seize slave vessels or slave cargoes?—I advised them to prohibit slave vessels coming to their country, and not to allow the slave trade.
7138. But you did not advise them to use every means in their power to get possession of any property belonging to a slave dealer that might come within their reach?—They could not get possession of any property, or slave vessel, if they followed my advice of not allowing them to come to their country to trade for slaves. There was no slave vessel, nor did I see any factories, in the Nunez, or any signs of the slave trade being carried on there.
7139. But they could not prevent slave vessels coming into their country without being in contact with them, and therefore having the means of seizing them?—Their seizing slave vessels and goods would be an act of their own. I remember no advice being given them by me, that they were to lie wait, or endeavour to seize vessels that they supposed to be engaged in the slave trade, or to seize goods on board those vessels, or to use any fraudulent means of getting those goods into their possession.
7140. Then if they have made your advice a pretext for seizing property in vessels belonging to Frenchmen in their rivers, they have done so falsely?—They never received any advice or recommendation from me to seize goods or vessels belonging to the French or any other nation. When I was in the Nunez there were three English merchants and four French merchants with me. The origin of my going there was owing to a war existing between King Sarra and the Nallow chief, which had stopped the trade of the river. There had also been some outrages committed upon an English vessel; the captain of one English vessel had been forcibly made to pay between 60 and 70 dollars, and another English vessel had been fired on by the natives. I entered into treaties with the chiefs that French and English property should be respected. The merchants were present at both interviews with those chiefs, a Foolah chief, with about 100 or 120Foolahs, who had been sent down from the Foolah country, was also with me, and assisted in making king Sarra refund 64 dollars which he had taken from this English captain, which money I delivered to the Governor of Sierra Leone; and on leaving the river both the English and French merchants expressed themselves very much satisfied with what I had done. There was no advice given by me to either of the chiefs but in the presence of those merchants.
7141.Chairman.] Did you find, in the course of your cruize, assistance given to the slave trade by English merchants?—I detained an English vessel bound to the Gallinas, freighted through the agency of Messrs. Zulueta, of London, on behalf of Pedro Martinez, of the Havannah, consigned to some notorious slaving establishment at the Gallinas.
7142. What was the result?—I sent the vessel to Sierra Leone; she was tried in the Vice-Admiralty Court, and condemned; the master was also tried at the sessions at Sierra Leone. The grand jury found a true bill against him, and I have every reason to believe the petty jury would have found him guilty, had the Queen’s advocate, who conducted the prosecution, represented the master as also the owner. But upon the trial he was tried merely as the master, and the jury acquitted him on the supposition that the master of a vessel might be ignorant of the trade in which she was engaged; but he being master and owner, and having been to the Gallinas on two previous voyages, and delivered cargoes, consigned in one instance to the notorious Pedro Blanco, and in another instance to another slave merchant; had this appeared, I have every reason to believe he would have been convicted. It is my opinion the house of Zulueta have aided and abetted the slave trade for a number of years, by acting as agents for slave dealers. There is a case on record, very nearly similar to this, of the brig Arrogante, which was sent out to the Havannah, and represented to the English Government by the English consul at the Havannah.
7143. You mean by the same house?—By the same house.
7144. What is the nature of the interest which the house of Zulueta have in these transactions?—They appear as agents only.
7145. What is the nature of their agency?—I will state the whole case of the vessel. I have copies of the principal papers with me in London, if the Committee should wish to see them. The “Augusta” was originally the “Goluptichick.” The “Goluptichick” was detained by me off Gallinas under Russian colours, with a crew composed solely of Spaniards. Her course of trade for two years had been wholly confined to Spanish ports and the coast of Africa. I had information of her taking a cargo of slaves from the coast a few months previously to my capturing her; I sent her to Sierra Leone, and attempted to try her in the Spanish and British Mixed Commission Court, under the treaty with Spain. She was refused to be admitted into the court, being under Russian colours and papers. I then determined upon sending her to England, being convinced that this vessel could not be trading lawfully from Russia, Russia having no colonies to which it was possible she could be carrying slaves. The vessel was perfectly equipped for the slave trade.
7146. What year was this in?—This was in 1839. The master of the vessel, rather than be sent to England, told me he would prove that the vessel was Spanish property, and gave me a certificate to that effect. I tried a second time to get her into the Mixed Commission Court, and failed, and then sent her to England. She was detained in England by the English Government for some time, and I believe given up to the Russian authorities; but I have received no official information on the subject. The vessel was sold at Portsmouth to a Mr. Jennings, but by the papers found on board her this purchase appears to have been effected by Zulueta & Co. The vessel proceeded to Liverpool, and shipped a cargo through the agency of Zulueta, on account of P. Martinez, of Havannah, which cargo was to be delivered at the Gallinas, to three notorious slave dealers. I found her at the Gallinas, and immediately seized her, when she was tried, as I have related, at Sierra Leone. An appeal has been entered before the Privy Council, and is now pending. In the trial at Sierra Leone the master and owner, Mr. Jennings, did not defend the vessel, which is an extraordinary thing, because the master and owner of the vessel, when she was tried before the Vice-Admiralty Court at Sierra Leone, ought to have defended her.
7147. Mr.Hamilton.] Was she equipped for the slave trade the second time?—No, she was not.
7148. CaptainFitzroy.] Who defended her?—She was not defended at all.
7149. SirT. D. Acland.] This is the second time that she has been tried at Sierra Leone?—This is the third time. The case of the Arrogante is very nearly similar; it is to be seen in the Papers laid before Parliament in 1839 or 1840.
[Adjourned to Wednesday next, at Half-past Twelve o’clock.
MEMBERS PRESENT.
Sir T. D. Acland.Mr. Aldam.Viscount Courtenay.Captain Fitzroy.Mr. Forster.Mr. W. Hamilton.Sir R. H. Inglis.Mr. Milnes.
Sir T. D. Acland.Mr. Aldam.Viscount Courtenay.Captain Fitzroy.
Sir T. D. Acland.Mr. Aldam.Viscount Courtenay.Captain Fitzroy.
Sir T. D. Acland.Mr. Aldam.Viscount Courtenay.Captain Fitzroy.
Mr. Forster.Mr. W. Hamilton.Sir R. H. Inglis.Mr. Milnes.
Mr. Forster.Mr. W. Hamilton.Sir R. H. Inglis.Mr. Milnes.
Mr. Forster.Mr. W. Hamilton.Sir R. H. Inglis.Mr. Milnes.
Viscount Sandonin the chair.
CaptainHenry Worsley Hill,R.N., called in; and further examined.
7150.Chairman.] When you were last examined, you were stating the cases in which you conceived that British merchants had given assistance to the slave trade?—Yes; I stated the case of the Augusta having been detained by me.
7151. Are there other cases which have come to your knowledge?—Not of vessels being engaged in the slave trade.
7152. Are there any other instances in which you have ascertained that English merchants had aided or abetted the slave trade?—A representation in a private way was made to me by the governor of Liberia, that an English vessel had supplied Mr. Canót at New Cestos, with goods and arms. He mentioned among other things, two or three pieces of brass ordnance, with which Mr. Canót was supposed to be fortifying his slaving establishments.
7153. Was that case investigated?—No, I could not gain sufficient proof. I went on board the vessel, and the master of the vessel did not deny having landed goods at Theodore Canót’s establishment, but I could find nothing amongst her papers or her custom-house cockets that went to convince me that guns and things had been taken out from England consigned to Mr. Canót. It did not come to any thing, it was merely a representation made by the governor of Liberia, as a set-off to the complaints that were daily made of the American flag covering the slave trade upon the coast; but I could find nothing whatever that justified me in supposing that that vessel came out with her cargo consigned to Mr. Canót.
7154. Do you know of any other case?—No, I know of no other case.
7155. Have you received assistance in the prosecution of your duty upon the coast from English vessels engaged in trade, in the way of information or otherwise?—In one or two instances I have.
7156. Of what nature?—Merely giving information of vessels which they had seen on the coast, which they suspected of being engaged in the slave trade.
7157. Have you ever received obstruction from them?—No, I have not.
7158. Mr.Forster.] You have spoken very strongly of Messrs. Zulueta & Co. as connected with the slave trade; are you aware that those gentlemen act very extensively as agents for foreign houses in Cuba, in Spain, and in Brazil, as Spanish merchants?—I have no means of ascertaining that.
7159. The cargo of the Augusta, which you seized, was shipped at Liverpool, where Messrs. Zulueta & Co. have a house?—It was.
7160. Did you find any prohibited goods in that cargo which had been shipped at Liverpool?—None.
7161. That cargo having been shipped at Liverpool, composed of lawful goods, and legally cleared by the custom-house officers there, in what way do you consider Messrs. Zulueta & Co. criminally implicated in such a transaction?—The custom-house officers at Liverpool may be totally ignorant of the trade carried on at the Gallinas, and also totally ignorant of the trade carried on by Pedro Martinez & Co. at the Havannah.
7162. Suppose Messrs. Zulueta & Co. to have received orders from their foreign correspondents to ship those goods; in what way do you consider them bound to know the history and pursuits of the person to whom they were directed to consign them at the Gallinas?—I should certainly think they are bound to be cautious that theydid nothing contrary to the laws of the country in which they were residing.
7163. But unless they knew that those goods were to be applied for the purchase of slaves on the coast of Africa, in what way do you consider them bound to exercise any caution, and above all, to refuse to comply with the orders of their correspondents?—I certainly think they are bound to use every caution that they do not act contrary to law.
7164. Who were the parties to whom they were consigned at the Gallinas?—The goods were consigned to be delivered to Don José Alvarez, and Don Angel Ximenes, and Don José Perez Rola, all noted slave dealers.
7165.Chairman.] Have Messrs. Zulueta direct intercourse with the coast of Africa themselves, as merchants, or are they only agents?—I have never met a vessel belonging to Messrs. Zulueta & Co. on the coast of Africa.
7166. They are shipping agents in England, obeying orders given them by their correspondents abroad?—I have never known Zulueta & Co. to be employed in any mercantile transactions on the coast of Africa, except with regard to Spanish slave merchants. I have never seen their names in any vessels that I have boarded, engaged in innocent traffic.
7167. Do you conceive that a shipping agent is bound to make himself acquainted with the pursuits of the parties to whom he ships lawful goods?—I think, as far as regards the slave trade on the coast of Africa, it is the duty of a merchant residing in England, to be cautious that he does not do any thing that will at all be acting contrary to the Act of Parliament for the Abolition of the Slave Trade.
7168. Supposing he had consigned goods to the Bight of Benin, for instance, where many of the greatest dealers in produce have been till lately dealers in slaves; can you conceive that he would have been engaging in unlawful traffic in complying with such orders from his correspondent?—If the goods were to be consigned to a port where innocent traffic was carried on, and to merchants who carried on that traffic as well as the slave trade, of course it would admit of great doubt to what purpose those goods would be applied; but, in this case, the goods being consigned to those three people at the Gallinas, a port where no trade but the slave trade has been carried on for a considerable number of years, I think it materially alters the position of the parties in the shipping of the goods.
7169. Then the innocence or otherwise of the transaction depends, in your opinion, upon the knowledge on the part of the shipping agent in England of the exclusively slave-dealing character, of the trade carried on from any point of the coast of Africa to which the goods may be consigned?—I think not exactly.
7170. Supposing the Gallinas had carried on a trade to the extent of 100 pieces of ivory annually, would that have been an innocent transaction which you now consider to have been a culpable one?—I think it might admit of a doubt whether there was a possibility of the goods shipped being employed in innocent traffic; but I think,being shipped to a place like the Gallinas, there can be no doubt whatever to what purpose the goods would be applied.
7171. Is not the nature of the traffic carried on from different points of the coast of Africa, shifting and varying from time to time; at one time exclusively in slave dealing, at other times partly in slave dealing and partly in produce; and at other times wholly in produce; according as the efforts of the English merchants have prevailed more or less. Would it not, therefore, according to this view, require constant reports to the shipper in England of the state for the year of the different points of trade on the coast of Africa, to enable him to know whether he could with safety carry on trade with any one place?—I think the slave trade has been at the point to which the vessel in question was consigned to deliver her cargo, so fully established, that it can admit of no doubt whatever as to the trade in which that vessel was employed. But it may happen, at many places on the coast, that a doubt might exist. For instance, if a merchant were established on the coast, carrying on the joint traffic of exchange of the produce of the country as well as the slave trade, it certainly would admit of a doubt. But I think it is the business of the merchant residing in England to make himself acquainted with the character of the persons on the coast of Africa to whom he makes consignments, especially seeing the attempts that are making and have been made for the suppression of the slave trade.
7172. You observe that the case in question is not the case of a merchant carrying on a direct trade with a slave dealer, but a merchant obeying the orders of his correspondent, to make consignments merely as his shipping agent?—I think myself it depends in a great measure upon the place to which the cargo is to be delivered. I think at New Cestos, for example, there might be a doubt to what trade the cargo would be applied; but there are many cases which will not admit of a doubt. Now if a merchant has been in the habit of acting as agent to a foreign house for a length of time, I think he must somehow acquire a knowledge of the trade which this foreign merchant is embarked in. I think it becomes the duty of the merchant to endeavour to make some inquiry, because the Act of Parliament is very decisive; it says, “Or in any other manner to engage or contract to engage directly or indirectly therein as a partner, agent or otherwise, or to ship, tranship, lade, receive or put on board, or to contract for the shipping, transhipping, lading, receiving or putting on board of any ship, vessel or boat, money, goods or effects to be employed in accomplishing any of the objects or the contracts in relation to the objects, which objects and contracts have hereinbefore been declared unlawful.” The law is very decisive.
7173. Mr.Forster.] What are the objects and contracts which have been previously declared unlawful?—“For any persons to deal or trade in, purchase, sell, barter, or transfer, or to contract for the dealing or trading in, purchase, sale, barter, or transfer of slaves or persons intended to be dealt with as slaves.”
7174. Do you consider the lawful shipping of goods at Liverpool a dealing in slaves?—A lawful shipment of goods cannot be unlawful.
7175. But if the shipment had not been lawful, would not the custom-house officers at Liverpool have seized the goods?—It is possible that the custom-house officers at Liverpool may be ignorant of what caused the shipment of the goods to be unlawful.
7176. But the custom-house officers cannot be ignorant whether the goods which they pass at Liverpool are lawfully shipped?—The parties and the port to which the goods are to be delivered of course stamp the character of the trade in which they are sent out.
7177.Chairman.] Would it be convenient if the custom-house officers were informed from time to time to what ports vessels might clear with safety, and to what they might not?—I think in the case of such a port as the Gallinas, it would have been convenient, and perhaps have been attended with some benefit, had the custom-house officers in our different ports in England been made acquainted with the trade that was there carried on, to prevent goods being shipped direct for that port; but that again would be evaded by shipping goods, as is frequently done, for the coast of Africa, without specifying any port.
7178. Do you conceive that the destruction of the barracoons is very effectual in putting down the slave trade?—I think that in many cases it would be attended with great benefit to the suppression of the slave trade, almost in every instance; but great care should be exercised in doing it.
7179. In what respects?—That the establishments should be decidedly ascertained to be slaving establishments, so as not to destroy any establishments that might be erected where innocent traffic was carried on, but only the slaving establishments that werebonâ fidefor the express purpose of slaving.
7180. Have you found any feeling of irritation created among the natives upon the coast by that mode of proceeding?—No; I was frequently at the Gallinas after the barracoons at the Gallinas were destroyed, and I thought a good feeling was springing up amongst the chiefs for the establishment of commerce and the cultivation of their soil. They certainly expressed a wish that the barracoons and the slaving establishments in the neighbouring states should be destroyed as well as their own.
7181. Do you conceive that the slave trade is popular with the natives of all classes, or that its profits are principally confined to the chiefs?—I think it is popular with the natives of all classes.
7182. Mr.Forster.] If it is popular with all classes, how do you account for their expressing a wish that the barracoons should be destroyed?—That followed after their own barracoons had been destroyed; they wished their neighbours’ barracoons to be destroyed likewise; they expressed their delight very openly when I went to the Gallinas after the establishments at Sea-bar had been destroyed.
7183. Supposing them to feel any irritation upon the subject, do you think it likely that it would be to the officer of a ship of war that they would communicate those feelings?—Perhaps not, directly; but I think the officers on being on shore would very easily observe if their feelings were unfavourable.
7184.Chairman.] Had you any communication with the slave dealers themselves upon the subject of this method of putting downthe slave trade?—Yes; I saw, I think, the most intelligent of the slave dealers that were established at the Gallinas, I think it was Don Angel Ximenes, who told me that it was impossible for him to carry on the slave trade, if this plan was followed up; that he was ruined by it; and that he intended immediately going to America, and that he had recommended the other slave dealers to do the same. Two or three of them, I know, left Africa immediately, and one other man left the Gallinas territory and settled in the neighbouring states, with the intention of trying to carry on the slave trade again.
7185. Has the introduction of the Equipment Article led, as a matter of necessity, to carrying on the slave trade by the collection of slaves in barracoons, ready for the descent of any slaver, who can no longer now hover in sight, and remain waiting for the collection of slaves during its stay there?—Yes; slave vessels now come across from the Havannah in every way ready equipped for embarking their slaves at an hour’s notice; they appear off the coast, and in one or two instances, I have heard that in two hours their cargoes have been put on board them.
7186. Barracoons have now become an essential part of the existing system of the slave trade?—They have always had barracoons.
7187. Mr.Milnes.] Do you think the slave trade is popular among the lower classes?—Yes, I think it is in those parts of Africa where they have known no other trade; that has been the trade by which they have derived all the principal articles that have almost become necessary to them.
7188.Chairman.] Have you seen instances where, upon the extinction of the slave trade, legitimate trade has taken its place?—I heard various reports of its having done so at the Bonny and at Benin; at the Bonny particularly. Again, Mr. Spence, in the River St. George’s, established himself and introduced innocent trade, and I believe totally expelled the slave dealers; it had a very beneficial effect in those three places.
7189. Was that a case where lawful traffic had the effect, without the assistance of cruizers, of expelling the slave trade, or was it in co-operation with them?—I think in co-operation with the cruizers. Mr. Spence took a great deal of pains, and if he had known of a slave vessel coming into St. George’s, he would have immediately informed the cruizers, and in fact he had so much influence with the chiefs immediately around him, that he prevented them from carrying on the slave trade. The slave trade cannot be carried on without the sanction of the chief, and in fact in almost every case it is done by the chief of the district himself; he is the principal slave dealer, receiving a certain emolument from the slave dealers coming to his place to trade.
7190. When you speak of the co-operation of the cruizers with Mr. Spence’s efforts, you mean that the cruizers protected Mr. Spence in his operations, but not that they were preventing the slave trade at the time by a blockade?—Exactly.
7191. Have you heard since the destruction of the slave factory at the Gallinas, or at Sea-bar, whether lawful trade has taken the place ofthe slave trade?—When I was last at the Gallinas, one of the chiefs showed me a sample of cotton that he was cultivating, and he promised that he would collect as much as he could for the purpose of carrying on innocent trade: he had then, I think, at the time I am speaking of, six or eight large packages in his house, and he said, that in the course of time, he could produce any quantity. He seemed to be honest in his intentions.
7192. ViscountCourtenay.] Was it wild or cultivated cotton?—He told me that he had cultivated it; and it appeared to me to be particularly good; it was much finer than any I have seen elsewhere.
7193. Mr.Aldam.] Did you see any cotton cultivated?—No, I did not see any cultivated; this was up the country, 10 or 12 miles up the Gallinas River.
7194. Would it be practicable to collect a considerable quantity of wild cotton?—No; I think the wild cotton is so much scattered, that without cultivation they could not collect any quantity.
7195.Chairman.] Had you any conversation with the chief upon the advantage with which the people might be employed in raising produce rather than their being sold as slaves?—Frequently I endeavoured to instil into their minds the advantages they would derive from giving up the slave trade, and employing their own slaves in tilling the ground, and collecting cam wood, and any thing the country might produce. I think in many parts of the Gallinas the country is capable of being cultivated to a great extent. I am now speaking of King Siacca’s Town, which is 10 or 12 miles up the river.
7196. Do you think it would be of advantage, either for the suppression of the slave trade, or for the encouragement of the lawful trade to have factories or forts planted at particular points?—I think, decidedly; I think if factories were established along the coast, it would materially lead to the suppression of the slave trade, and also to the cultivation and improvement of Africa generally; I think particularly on the coast from Sierra Leone to Cape Mount, which has been the chief slavery district on that part of Africa.
7197. Have you had reason to know whether there would be facilities or otherwise for the purchase of sites for settlements of that description from the native chiefs?—I think there might be a little opposition made in the first instance, which might easily be overcome. I remember one of the chiefs of the Gallinas telling me that he would have no objection to see the English settle there; but others again did not seem so desirous of it. Again, at Cape Mount the chief was very anxious that the English should establish themselves, and carry on trade there; and when I was last at Cape Mount the English flag was flying. The American governor of Liberia came up, and was very desirous that the American flag should be likewise hoisted, which the chief refused; he showed a decided preference to the English.
7198. Is there a coasting traffic established along the coast to any degree from point to point, and is any part of it carried on by theliberated Africans of Sierra Leone?—I think not; I think the coasting trade of Sierra Leone to the southward does not extend beyond one or two towns in the Sherboro’ River, where they go for cam wood, which is particularly good there. To the northward the canoes trade to the River Scarcies, and occasionally, I think, as far as the Pongos. But those boats that go to the Pongos always incur the suspicion that they are all more or less carrying goods for the slave dealers in the Pongos; but as far as regards the immediate coasting trade of Sierra Leone, it is very much confined.
7199. You would be glad to see the services of a steamer secured for Sierra Leone?—I think it is absolutely necessary.
7200. SirT. D. Acland.] And also for the Gambia?—And for the Gambia likewise. I think it is absolutely necessary for the Gambia, to communicate between St. Mary’s and M‘Carthy’s Island. For instance, it occurred while I was at the Gambia that information arrived from M‘Carthy’s Island of the natives having attacked the island, and before troops could be sent up, or I could get up in a sailing vessel, many days elapsed, where a steam-boat would have done it in a day and a half. Steam-boats would also be particularly useful for the suppression of the slave trade.
7201. Is there any other point besides Sierra Leone and the Gambia where you think they are particularly wanted?—I would say, generally along the coast, for the suppression of the slave trade, I should say that it would require half-a-dozen steamers to protect the coast between the Gambia and the southernmost slaving ports on the western coast of Africa.
7202. Where?—Down to Benguela. I think about half-a-dozen steam-boats would be sufficient.
7203. SirR. H. Inglis.] What is the average passage by steam and the average passage by sailing vessels between the Bight of Benin and Sierra Leone?—It depends a great deal upon the season of the year. I think from the Bight of Benin to Sierra Leone the average passage in sailing vessels is about a month.
7204. Have you experience sufficient to enable you to state to the Committee the average passage by steam-vessels?—No, I have not.
7205. What is the extreme length of passage between the Bight of Benin and Sierra Leone in a sailing vessel; the question having reference particularly to a sailing vessel taking slaves on board for adjudication before the court at Sierra Leone?—I have heard of vessels being a very long time, three months; I think I remember slave vessels that have taken between two or three months to get up from the Bight of Benin to Sierra Leone; but I think that is a very rare occurrence; usually the passage is made in about a month.
7206. In all seasons?—In all seasons; I think a month is the average passage.
7207. SirT. D. Acland.] What is the shortest?—I think I have heard of its being done in a fortnight.
7208. SirR. H. Inglis.] What is the average passage across the Atlantic, from the Bight of Benin to the Havannah?—From five to six weeks; but I think it is done in less time; I think I remember aslaver telling me, that he did it in something less than a month, but I think from five to six weeks is the average passage; the great difficulty is getting immediately off the coast.
7209.Chairman.] Are the winds mostly on shore?—It depends a great deal on the season of the year.
7210. Would there be any difficulty in a vessel lying off Cape Palmas, if it were thought desirable, for the purpose of regulating any emigration that might proceed from those parts?—I think there would be no difficulty in a cruizer remaining off Cape Palmas; in lying at anchor there would be danger, but not in keeping under weigh.
7211. SirT. D. Acland.] Do you think that it would be possible for a naval officer to undertake the service of clearing vessels for the West Indies, having ascertained that the natives embarked on board came with their free will, without any fraud or compulsion?—I think the local authorities could do that better than a naval officer.
7212. The question refers to those parts where there are no local authorities; and it proceeds on the supposition that no vessel could be received with emigrants in the West Indies without a clearance from the British officer commanding a certain range of coast: could a British officer in the first place lie off and on, and in the next place, could he discharge the duty of ascertaining whether the emigrants on board any vessel submitted to his examination, were or were not engaged on that voyage without fraud or compulsion?—I think he would have no other means of ascertaining, but what he was told by the natives themselves.
7213. What course would he pursue; would he muster the emigrants on deck, and be able to ascertain from them the circumstances under which they were embarked?—Of course he would have to muster the negroes, and he would question each whether they embarked with their free will for the purpose of emigration; but to do that, he would require an interpreter, and perhaps amongst the number, there might be a great many who spoke different languages; therefore there would be as many interpreters required, as there were different languages; and after all, those people might declare that they had not been asked, and probably place the naval officer in a very awkward predicament. He would be subject entirely to the African, who might tell half-a-dozen different stories in the course of so many months. It would be a very difficult measure to carry out.
7214.Chairman.] If they were only to embark Kroomen or inhabitants of the coast, do you think he would have any difficulty in ascertaining whether they were free agents or otherwise?—With Kroomen or Fishmen, I think none whatever; because in the Kroo country and in the Fish country the slave trade is not carried on, or if it is carried on, it is so slight that we hardly know any thing about it.
7215. Mr.Aldam.] Is there more than one language spoken by the Kroomen and the Fishmen?—There is some difference of language, but still they understand one another.
7216. One interpreter would be sufficient with the Kroomen and the Fishmen?—I think so.
7217.Chairman.] Would the officer on the station be able to distinguish Kroomen and Fishmen from the natives of the interior?—Decidedly, any person could.
7218. So that if he were instructed to sanction the emigration only of Kroomen and Fishmen, he would be in no danger of confounding them with any other tribes?—No, they are so distinct a class; they are perfectly different from any other natives. They differ materially in appearance, and manners, and language, and every thing.
7219. Then if the emigration were confined to those classes, you do not apprehend that there would be any difficulty in preventing that emigration from assuming the character of slave trade?—I think there would be no difficulty in the Kroo country and in the Fish country. The difficulty would be on the part of the coast where the slave trade is known to have been carried on, and where, from the slave trade having been carried on, the different tribes are so very much intermixed.
7220. SirT. D. Acland.] Could it in that case be done by the commander of a fort on shore, who if he had time, would be able to ascertain the facts?—I think it would be an undertaking of great trouble.
7221. Mr.Forster.] Have you made any other seizures on the coast of Africa than the Augusta?—Several.
7222. Did you seize a vessel called the Sénégambie at St. Mary’s?—Yes, I seized a vessel called the Sénégambie in the river Gambia.
7223. On what ground was that seizure made?—On account of being equipped for the slave trade.
7224. Were you aware at the time you seized her that she had been chartered by the governor of Senegal for the voyage in which she was engaged?—I do not know whether I knew that at the time of making the seizure, or whether it was immediately afterwards, but the impression upon my mind is, that the owner told me in the custom-house that he was going to Bissao for a cargo of negroes.
7225. Did he not show you his papers and engagements, or rather did you examine them yourself?—The papers of the vessel when I seized her were in the custom-house. The vessel had been in the port of St. Mary’s two or three days.
7226. Did you not examine the papers?—I went to the custom-house for the purpose of examining the papers, and there I met Mr. Marbeau, the owner of the vessel, who told me the vessel was going to Bissao for a cargo of negroes.
7227. Did he not inform you that the negroes were for the service of the French government?—Afterwards I received copies of an agreement entered into between Mr. Marbeau and the governor of Senegal, transmitted to me by the governor of St. Mary’s.
7228. When did you receive them?—While I was at St. Mary’s.
7229. Before or after you had seized the vessel?—I think two or three days after I had seized the vessel; but those papers are printed in the correspondence, and they give much better information upon the subject. I have nothing to guide me but my recollection.
7230. Were there any mechanics or persons on board of her fromthe shore, at the time you seized her?—Yes; there were some mechanics on board of her belonging to St. Mary’s, who were employed in caulking and fitting the vessel for her intended voyage. There were also on board of her three small children, who I thought were under most suspicious circumstances, belonging to St. Mary’s.
7231. Did you think the carpenters and caulkers, who were engaged on board the vessel from shore, were there under suspicious circumstances?—No, they were employed on board the vessel, fitting the vessel for her intended voyage to Bissao for a cargo of slaves. The Sénégambie was partly equipped for the slave trade; she was lying in a British port, equipping for a cargo of slaves, where she had been for two or three days; the equipments were quite sufficient to condemn her, and she was condemned at Sierra Leone. She was absolutely lying in a British port equipping; she was to get provisions, and she had carpenters and men at work upon her belonging to the colony.
7232. SirT. D. Acland.] Was she preparing false decks?—The slave-deck was partly laid, not wholly laid; she was being generally equipped for the voyage she was going on.
7233.Chairman.] Were the carpenters laying the slave-deck?—I cannot say exactly what the carpenters were doing; I did not see them laying the slave-deck; but she was fitting out for her intended voyage to Bissao. There was a slave-deck partly laid, and part of it to be laid, and I believe they would have finished it.
7234. Were the planks ready for completing the slave-deck lying there?—I think they were.
7235. SirR. H. Inglis.] But you are certain that part of her slave-deck was laid?—Yes.
7236. SirT. D. Acland.] Did you seize her upon the ground of her partial equipment?—Her equipment was the ground upon which I seized her.
7237.Chairman.] And it was the ground of her subsequent condemnation?—It was; the equipment was perfectly proved.
7238. Mr.Forster.] Do you wish the Committee to understand that that vessel was chartered by the governor of Senegal for a voyage to Bissao, and that she was not fitted out for that voyage at Senegal?—That I cannot say; I found her partly equipped, and lying in a British port, equipping for her intended voyage. She was so far equipped for the slave trade that there were ample grounds for my seizing her; and she was there caulking, fitting, and preparing for sea. She was to receive provisions for her intended voyage from the colony of St. Mary’s; at least, so I was informed by the supercargo.
7239. How do you account for the vessel coming from the neighbouring French settlement of Senegal to fit out for the purpose of receiving those negroes at the Gambia?—It is a most extraordinary thing, in my mind, that a vessel should sail from a French port, only distant 50 or 60 miles, and come to an English port, and there remain for two or three days, with people at work upon her, caulking and repairing her, and fitting her for sea.
7240. Mr.Aldam.] Had she had bad weather?—No, nothing at all of the sort; by the vessel’s papers she was not out of Goree morethan one day before she arrived at the Gambia; I think less than one day.
7241. Mr.Forster.] Do you wish the Committee to understand that the vessel did not arrive at the Gambia with all her fittings for the voyage?—I have before stated that the vessel was lying in the Gambia, caulking and equipping for her intended voyage. It is impossible for me to state whether she brought her slave-deck with her to the Gambia, or whether she procured her slave-deck at the Gambia; but if she came to the Gambia with all those equipments on board, I would ask what can be thought of our custom-house officers at the Gambia?
7242. Do you think the custom-house officers at the Gambia would very readily conceive themselves entitled to seize a French vessel, chartered by the governor of Senegal?—The vessel being chartered by the governor of Senegal could have nothing to do with the laws that prevail in a British port. The French governor of Senegal cannot be regarded in an English port; our own laws are what are to govern our officers. The custom-house officers’ duty was to seize a vessel that was acting contrary to the laws of a British port.
7243. Therefore you think it was no excuse for the custom-house officers that she was employed in the service of the French government?—None whatever, because the custom-house officers, in all probability, would be perfectly ignorant of that circumstance, as I was myself. I seized her, and I was not aware she was employed by the French government till I had seized her one or two days.
7244. SirR. H. Inglis.] The last question, and your last answer, have assumed that the vessel was employed in the service of the French government; is that what you wish the Committee to understand in respect of a vessel chartered by the governor of Senegal: might it not have been a speculation, on the part of the governor, as an individual, not involving any responsibility on the part of the government of France?—Undoubtedly it is very possible that it might have been a speculation on the part of the governor of Senegal without the knowledge of the French government; but in the case of a vessel equipped for the slave trade in a British port, whether she is employed by the governor of Senegal, or the governor of Bissao, or the governor of any nation, cannot in any way affect our laws.
7245. Mr.Aldam.] Was this vessel, which was fitted up for the purpose of procuring negroes for the French service, fitted up as an ordinary slave ship?—As an ordinary slave ship.
7246. There were the same means of restraint?—Precisely; iron bars across the hatchway, and the usual equipment of a slave vessel.
7247. So that it appeared that men were intended to be kept under restraint upon the voyage?—Certainly.
7248. Mr.Forster.] Were there any slave-irons on board?—I do not at this period remember very minutely her equipment, but there was quite sufficient ground to authorise my seizing the vessel.
7249. What were those carpenters doing on board?—They were at work upon the vessel.
7250. Can you describe the work they were doing?—I cannot do that: they were performing their work as carpenters.
7251.Chairman.] Do you recollect whether they were caulking outside, or performing work inside the vessel?—I saw them at work, but I do not remember whether they were caulking the outside or the inside; but I see in my report that she had caulkers on board belonging to St. Mary’s, who were caulking and equipping her.
7252. Mr.Forster.] When you found that those carpenters belonged to St. Mary’s, did you send them on shore?—No, most assuredly not.
7253. Did you seize them with the vessel?—I sent them up with the vessel to Sierra Leone, and put them into the court with the vessel; and with respect to the three children that were on board, I considered, from their age, that they could be in no way connected with the equipping of the vessel, or otherwise concerned in the vessel beyond a general suspicion arising in my mind of what was intended to be done with those children, and I therefore sent them on shore to the governor of the Gambia, that he might make such inquiry respecting those children as he might judge proper.
7254. Did you consider that those carpenters, working for hire on board a vessel in the harbour, were justly chargeable with a participation in the slave trade?—They were found on board the vessel, and I considered it was necessary that I should send them with the vessel before the Vice-Admiralty Court.
7255. Did you consider them as assisting in the equipment of the vessel?—They were assisting in the equipment of the vessel, and it was with that view I sent them up; and, moreover, their evidence, if the court had required it, would have been necessary to show that the vessel was absolutely equipping in a British port; but perhaps the vessel would have been condemned without it.
7256. What was the result of the trial?—The vessel was condemned.
7257. Mr.Forster.] If the vessel was so fully equipped for the purposes of the slave trade, as you stated, how could the evidence of those carpenters be necessary at Sierra Leone?—I have stated that the vessel was partly equipped, and was completing her equipment in the port of St. Mary’s; those carpenters being on board, I considered that it was necessary that I should send them to Sierra Leone for the court to decide in what way they were punishable.
7258. Were not representations made to you from the shore that those people were carpenters belonging to the settlement, hired by the master of the vessel, and in no way answerable for his proceedings, or for the destination of the vessel?—No official representation was made to me; perhaps some merchant, or some person connected with some mercantile houses on shore might have told me so, but I certainly paid no attention to it, nor did I consider myself bound to pay attention to any thing of the sort. Had an official representation been made to me from the governor, of course it would require my greatest attention; but if an officer in the execution of his duty is to be guided by every person that he may meet in the settlement telling him this, that, or the other, there would be no possibility of his ever performing his duty.
7259. But at all events you knew that they were native workmen, belonging to the British settlement at the Gambia?—Yes; I knew that from their own story. I sent them up with the vessel, and put them into court with the vessel, and moreover acquainted the lieutenant-governor of the Gambia officially that I intended doing so.
7260. Were they put in prison upon their arrival at Sierra Leone?—I was not at Sierra Leone when the vessel arrived. To the best of my knowledge they were confined about a month.
7261.Chairman.] Were they condemned?—I do not know.
7262. Mr.Aldam.] Were they confined preparatory to trial, or after sentence?—I forget, for I was not at Sierra Leone at the time; but I believe it was the Vice-Admiralty Court that confined them.
7263. Mr.Forster.] Do you know whether the carpenters were tried or not?—I do not know; I was not at Sierra Leone during the trial of the vessel, but I believe I arrived at Sierra Leone the very day that the vessel was condemned in the Vice-Admiralty Court.
7264. Did you make no inquiry as to the fate of those carpenters?—No, I did not, because I left Sierra Leone, I think, the day after the vessel was condemned, for Portendique, and I had no time to make inquiry on either of the two days that I was at Sierra Leone. I knew that the vessel was before the Vice-Admiralty Court who would decide upon the merits of the case.
7265. Was there a French gentleman also on board the vessel when you seized her?—There was a French person on board, whom I believed to be the supercargo, and, I rather think, was the brother of Mr. Marbeau.
7266. Did you find that he was the supercargo of the vessel?—He told me that he was the supercargo; and I believe that he was the brother of Mr. Marbeau, the owner.
7267. Was he not a passenger from Senegal to the Gambia?—It is impossible for me to say what he was.
7268. Had he been on shore at the Gambia previously to your seizing the vessel?—It is impossible for me to say.
7269. Did you carry a French gentleman from the Gambia to Sierra Leone, without making inquiry into his character and pursuits, and his connexion with that vessel?—All persons who were found on board the vessel, as I have before stated, with the exception of three black children, I sent to Sierra Leone, because I could not tell, of course, what he was doing in the vessel; he might be a French gentleman, or he might be there for the purpose of purchasing slaves; or he might be, for what I could tell, the very person who had got on board the three children, who, I have before stated, I thought were placed in a very suspicious position. My duty was to send everybody found in the vessel I had captured, on the suspicion of slave dealing, before the court appointed to adjudicate upon such cases.
7270. How did you consider him to be connected with those three children?—What I stated was, that he might be; I have not said that he was; I stated that I knew nothing about him, but finding him in the slave vessel, I sent him with the slave vessel before the court.
7271. You sent the three children on shore?—Yes; everybody else I sent before the court; and if any person in the world had been on board the vessel I should have sent him in the same way; if an English merchant had been on board, that merchant would have gone with the vessel likewise before the court; the court is to decide upon the legality or illegality of the conduct of persons found under such circumstances.
7272.Chairman.] You conceive that that vessel, by her equipment was clearly seizable, as engaged in the slave trade?—Yes, or else I should not have seized her; I took upon myself a great responsibility in seizing her.
7273. And under those circumstances you felt yourself called upon to send every person found on board the vessel for adjudication before the proper court?—Yes; if I had not done so, I should have conceived that I laid myself open to the charge of not doing my duty.
7274. SirT. D. Acland.] When you find a vessel reasonably suspected of being engaged in the slave trade, you think those who are found on board are liable to the same suspicion?—In the case of a vessel seized amenable to the British law.
7275. SirR. H. Inglis.] Did you not find on board the vessel a contract between Marbeau and Pellett on the one hand, and the French governor on the other, to deliver a certain number of “passengers” at Goree?—This contract for “Blacks” was forwarded to me by the lieutenant-governor of the Gambia, one or two days after I had made the seizure, which contract I sent to the Vice-Admiralty court, with the vessel; every paper connected with the vessel, as well as the contract, was laid before the court.
7276. Mr.Forster.] Were you aware that she was engaged by the French government before you sent her from the Gambia?—I had seen this contract, which was entered into by the French governor of Senegal, but not the French government.
7277. Was the French gentleman, M. Pellett, put in prison also upon his arrival at Sierra Leone?—I have stated that I know not what was done by the court at Sierra Leone. Not being in Sierra Leone at the time the vessel was at Sierra Leone, I cannot say; but, to the best of my belief, the whole of them were put in prison.
7278. SirT. D. Acland.] Have you known instances of persons in authority under other governments being engaged in slave dealing?—The charge has been frequently repeated very strongly of the governor of Bissao being engaged very frequently in slave dealing, and I verily believe it myself, because I have frequently detected vessels with papers given by the governor of Bissao, which vessels were equipped in every way for being engaged in the slave trade; and I have also some recollection of some papers being found from the governor of Bissao, detailing how some slaves that he had sent from Bissao were to be disposed of.
7279. That slave dealing being contrary to the law of his own country?—That slave dealing being contrary to the treaty between England and Portugal.
7280. Therefore the mere fact of finding the name of a governorupon the papers would not be a complete warrant for the lawfulness of the traffic in which the vessel was engaged?—I should pay great respect to the name of the French governor, but I should be very cautious how I regarded the name of the governor of Bissao, because I have seen so many instances of papers in which his name has been used to cover slaving transactions.
7281. Mr.Forster.] Was the captain of the Sénégambie a black or a white man?—I think a black man was represented to me as the captain.
7282. Mr.Aldam.] You spoke of the desirableness of having forts upon the African coast, upon the territory of the native chiefs. What establishment would it be necessary to have in any such fort?—I should think if the forts were small and well built, a very few men would be sufficient; I should fancy the best form of fort to be erected would be a Martello tower, that they might have one gun upon a pivot, so that for the defence of the fort it would require very few men.
7283. How many whites?—I should say half white and half black; I should say a dozen men altogether.
7284.—Would not one or two white officers be sufficient, the rest of the men being black?—That would do if you could insure white officers living, but the danger is of one dying, and in that case to whom would the charge of the fort devolve. It would be necessary to have a sufficient number of white people, that you might always insure one person to be in command.
7285. Are there no sub-officers blacks, whom you might entrust with a command of that kind, subject to the visits of the captains of men-of-war upon the station?—I think not at present; I think Africa would require to be much further advanced in civilization before it would be prudent to trust a fort entirely to black men.
7286. And it would generally happen that those forts would be built upon an unhealthy part of the coast?—It is almost impossible to select any part of the coast of Africa as being healthy. One spot may be more healthy this season than another; but there is very little difference upon the coast. The coast of Africa, from the Kroo country up to Senegal, is generally composed of a low swampy mangrove line of coast. Those mangroves extend frequently from 25 to 30 miles into the interior. There are spots like Sierra Leone, Cape Verde, and Cape Mount, where you can find high land; but generally speaking it is all a swampy mangrove coast.
7287. The spots you would select for those forts for commercial purposes would generally happen to be unhealthy?—It would naturally so occur, because they would require to be near the mouths of the principal rivers, for drawing the exports down from the interior; but I should think that the communication would be drawn down better from the interior by opening some communication, or making an agreement or treaty with some of the inland powerful chiefs, such as the Foolahs, who are by far the most enlightened race that I have seen, and much more advanced towards civilization than the people in any other part of Africa that I have been in.
7288. SirT. D. Acland.] Does Teembo belong to them?—Yes.
7289. Mr.Aldam.] Would you contemplate in that case having a fort some distance up the river?—No; in the River Nunez, to which I allude with respect to the Foolahs, I do not think it would be necessary, because the petty chiefs immediately at the mouth of the Nunez, who are now likely to give trouble, would be kept in order by them; I think a treaty entered into with the Foolah chief, would in a great measure ensure our trade with the Foolah country. Through the means of the Foolah chief we should be enabled to carry on trade independent of the petty chiefs, through whose territory the trade now has to pass.
7290. What kind of treaty would you make with those chiefs?—The object of it would be to bind the Foolah chief down to afford protection and security to our commerce, and to people settling in his country, for the purpose of carrying on trade.
7291. And you think it would be easy to obtain such a treaty?—I think so; I judge from the opinion given me by a Foolah chief, whom I met in the Nunez, and who expressed himself desirous that the white people should not leave the River Nunez, and said that he would be very happy to escort me up to Teembo, that the Foolah Almaamy would be very happy to see me.
7292. Over what extent of country would the influence of this chief extend?—The Foolah country is now very extensive. The kingdom of Kikandy is in some measure tributary to the Foolah country.
7293. Mr.Forster.] Were you at Sierra Leone when the affair of the Hamburgh vessel, the Echo, took place?—I was at Sierra Leone while the Echo was there.
7294. Did you apply to the captain of the Echo for some of his crew?—I met some of the crew of the Echo, who came to me and expressed a wish to enter the Saracen for Her Majesty’s service, and on meeting the captain of the Echo, I mentioned to him that those people had done so; but I had no idea of entering the crew, as they were all foreigners.
7295. SirT. D. Acland.] How far is the Nunez navigable?—For vessels drawing 10 feet water to Debucca, a distance of 50 or 60 miles; and for large canoes I should think much higher.