Mr.Ball. Turned on Houston Street viaduct?
Mr.McWatters. Left on Houston Street.
Mr.Ball. To Marsalis?
Mr.McWatters. In other words, this is the Houston Street viaduct and this is Marsalis where you turn and come off Houston Street viaduct.
Mr.Ball. Then you go south how far?
Mr.McWatters. Go south all the way to, let's see, it is Ann Arbor. This is all Marsalis right here.
Mr.Ball. A straight run south?
Mr.McWatters. Straight run.
Mr.Ball. Then you make a turn and go back?
Mr.McWatters. I make a turn, in other words, on Ann Arbor and in other words, just circle, make a loop, just circle right around this little shopping center here.
Mr.Ball. And go back.
Mr.McWatters. And right back down Marsalis.
Mr.Ball. Marsalis is how far from Beckley?
Mr.McWatters. Marsalis is, let'ssee——
Mr.Ball. This is Beckley here?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. You can count the streets there, can you?
Mr.McWatters. In other words, it would be seven blocks.
Mr.Ball. Seven blocks, Beckley is seven blocks west of Marsalis, is that correct?
Mr.McWatters. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Your bus line doesn't run down Beckley?
Mr.McWatters. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. It doesn't run seven blocks, close to Beckley? Have you seen this? Here is Beckley and here is Marsalis, the bus line.
Is there a bus route on Beckley?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir; there is.
Mr.Ball. Can you get a bus that goes down Beckley some place around Houston and Elm?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir; the bus comes, the Beckley bus comes in on St. Paul and Elm, in other words, at the time that I was, before we started, in other words, that is where the Beckley bus enters Elm Street there and then he goes the same route through town.
Mr.Ball. Same route you go down to the Houston viaduct?
Mr.McWatters. Yes. In other words, after the Book Depository down there, he goes straight on.
Mr.Ball. Let me ask you this: The Beckley bus, the bus that will take you south on Beckley, has a starting point the same place as yours at St. Paul and Elm?
Mr.McWatters. St. Paul, in other words, the time element is the same. In other words, he comes in there.
Mr.Ball. Then that Beckley bus goes west on Elm the same as your bus?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. But instead of turning south on the Houston Street viaduct the Beckley bus goes straight west on Elm, doesn't it?
Mr.McWatters. That is correct.
Mr.Ball. Can you show us the bus stop for the Beckley bus on this Commission Exhibit No. 361?
Mr.McWatters. Well, yes; his last bus stop would be right here at the cornerof——
Mr.Ball. Let's put a mark on this. Here is a red pencil, and put a mark on this in red and show us the place where the Beckley bus would stop.
Mr.McWatters. It would stop—in other words, we consider this corner of this intersection right here, any letter or what.
Mr.Ball. Just put a rectangular mark about the size of a bus indicating bus stop—take black ink and indicating a place where the bus would stop.
Mr.McWatters. In other words, the bus would stop along in this place right here.
Mr.Ball. All right, now that is bus stop for Beckley bus.
Mr.McWatters. That is bus stop for Beckley bus.
Mr.Ball. Northeast corner Houston and Elm.
Mr.McWatters. Northeast corner of Houston and Elm.
Mr.Ball. The Beckley bus goes on across directly in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr.McWatters. That is correct.
Mr.Ball. As your bus gets into another lane of traffic and does not stop at Houston and Elm and makes a turn south on Houston.
Mr.McWatters. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Then the Beckley bus stop, the stop of the Beckley bus, which is in black ink on the northeast corner of Houston and Elm, we will mark that with a big "B" which stands for Beckley bus.
RepresentativeFord. How long have you been on this run that you had the day of November 22?
Mr.McWatters. I worked this run for, I would say, this is the second year. This makes 2 years that I worked this.
RepresentativeFord. Two years consecutively?
Mr.McWatters. 2 years consecutively that I have been on this run and worked it.
RepresentativeFord. So you would be familiar with the route?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir; just like I say, I worked it, this is the second year that I have worked the same, in other words, the same hours, and the same route.
RepresentativeFord. How many hours a day do you work this route?
Mr.McWatters. Well, now, this one particular route right here, I work it only 2 hours and 35 minutes.
RepresentativeFord. Each day?
Mr.McWatters. Each day.
RepresentativeFord. How many days a week?
Mr.McWatters. 5 days, Monday through Friday. And after that, in other words, I work on another, a different bus line.
But this one particular one here is just 2 hours and 35 minutes each day.
RepresentativeFord. When you say a different bus line, you mean the same company but a different route?
Mr.McWatters. A different route.
RepresentativeFord. You would be familiar with the time schedules and all of the stops on this particular route from your 2 years' experience?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir.
SenatorCooper. May I ask a question?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir.
SenatorCooper. Have you testified that you saw this passenger whom you later recognized in the lineup, get on the bus in the vicinity of Murphy Street—is Murphy Street on your right?
Mr.McWatters. Murphy Street is the street that, in other words, that comes in.
SenatorCooper. Does it run into Elm Street?
Mr.McWatters. It runs into Elm Street, it dead ends, in other words, into Elm Street.
Here is Field Street, in other words, across this intersection and we stopped across the intersection of Field, and Murphy Street comes in to the intersection at about where the bus stops, in other words, where Field Street stops and I guess that Griffin is the next small street that comes in just, it is just a short distance below.
SenatorCooper. Well, did the passenger that you have testified about, and whom you stated that you later identified, did he get on in the vicinity of Murphy Street?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir.
SenatorCooper. Murphy Street—you proceeded from Murphy Street toward the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir.
SenatorCooper. Is that correct?
Mr.McWatters. That is correct.
SenatorCooper. Was the passenger that got on near Murphy Street the same passenger that you later have testified about who told you that the President had been shot in the temple?
Mr.McWatters. Well, they told me later that it was, but at the time they didn't tell me.
SenatorCooper. Who didn't tell you?
Mr.McWatters. The police didn't.
SenatorCooper. When you say this passenger got on near Murphy Street, was there anything about him that caused you to take notice of him particularly?
Mr.McWatters. Well, no, sir. I wouldn't say there was. He was, I would say, he didn't have on no suit or anything, he had on, I believe, some type of jacket, cloth jacket.
SenatorCooper. What caused you to remember him getting on?
Mr.McWatters. What caused me to remember?
SenatorCooper. Yes; at the time he got on.
Mr.McWatters. Because, the reason I remembered exactly because I didn't put out but two transfers, and that, in other words, from where he got on and everything, I didn't have but one, there wasn't but one man on the bus and that was the teenage boy, when he got on the bus, in other words, when he got off, he was the only man except the teenage boy who was on the bus at the time.
SenatorCooper. Now was this man that you saw got on the bus the same one who told you that the President had been shot in the temple?
Mr.McWatters. The man who got on the bus now?
SenatorCooper. Yes. The man to whom you have just referred as getting on the bus near Murphy Street.
Mr.McWatters. Yes.
SenatorCooper. Is he the same man who told you that the President had been shot in the temple?
Mr.McWatters. No, sir.
SenatorCooper. Who told you that?
Mr.McWatters. A man in an automobile in front of me, in other words, that was sitting in a car come back and told me.
SenatorCooper. Told you what?
Mr.McWatters. That the President had been shot, that he had heard over his radio in his car that the President had been shot.
SenatorCooper. I think you have testified that someone, some passenger on the bus, in response to a question that you had asked, "I wonder where they shot the President" said, "They shot him in the temple."
Mr.McWatters. Oh, that was now, that was after we had done, that is when I turned on Houston Street, the conversation with the teenage boy.
SenatorCooper. It was the teenage boy who told you that?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir; it was the teenage boy, sitting on his right side of the side seat there, the one that I conversationed with about the President being shot in the head or the temple, I don't remember, but the teenage boy was the one.
That was after the man that already got off that had boarded my bus up around Griffin there.
SenatorCooper. Then the one who told you the President had been shot in the temple was not the one you later identified in the police lineup?
Mr.McWatters. No, sir.
SenatorCooper. This probably has been testified to, but where did the man that you later identified in the police lineup get off the bus?
Mr.McWatters. Got off between Poydras and Lamar Street.
SenatorCooper. Was that after you crossed over the viaduct or before?
Mr.McWatters. No, sir; that was before I crossed over.
SenatorCooper. When did the teenage boy get off the bus?
Mr.McWatters. He got off at Oak Cliff, I believe. He got off at Marsalis and Brownley.
SenatorCooper. Was that after the bus had crossed the viaduct?
Mr.McWatters. That is after the bushad——
SenatorCooper. Past the Texas Depository?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir; that is about 3 or 4 miles out in the Oak Cliff section where the teenage boy got off of the bus.
SenatorCooper. From the time the man got on the bus, which you later identified in the police lineup until he got off, had you noticed him, had you looked at him again?
Mr.McWatters. Had I looked at him again?
SenatorCooper. Yes.
Mr.McWatters. Not until just like I say he was sitting—I was talking to this teenage boy and he was sitting right behind this boy, but I didn't pay him any particular attention, to the man.
SenatorCooper. You saw him get on the bus?
Mr.McWatters. Yes.
SenatorCooper. Did you see him get off?
Mr.McWatters. Yes; I gave him a transfer when he got off the bus, the same place that was, the same place I was stopped where the man come back and stepped up in the bus and told me what he had heard over his radio in his car, the same place that the lady got off, with a suitcase, is the place that the man got off.
SenatorCooper. The man you later identified in the police lineup?
Mr.McWatters. That is correct; yes, sir.
SenatorCooper. Did you pay any particular attention to him when he got off?
Mr.McWatters. Not no more than I did than, I think, when he got on.
SenatorCooper. Do you remember anything about his clothes or his general appearance in any way?
Mr.McWatters. Just like I say, I remember he had on, to me he had on just work clothes, he didn't have on a suit of clothes, and some type of jacket. I would say a cloth jacket.
SenatorCooper. I believe that is all.
Mr.Ball. You didn't—as I understand it, when you were at the police lineup, you told us that you didn't—weren't able to identify this man in the lineup as the man who got off, that you gave the transfer to.
Mr.McWatters. I told them to the best of my knowledge, I said the man that I picked out was the same height, about the same height, weight and description. But as far as actually saying that is the man Icouldn't——
Mr.Ball. You couldn't do it?
Mr.McWatters. I wouldn't do it and I wouldn't do it now.
Mr.Ball. You signed an affidavit for the Dallas Police Department, do you remember that?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. I will show you a copy of it, we can get the original if you want, but there is a copy of it, a picture taken of it.
Will you read it, please?
(At this point, Representative Ford withdrew from the hearing room.)
Mr.Ball. This document, I would like to have marked as 377, at this time, Commission Exhibit, with the understanding that we may substitute the photostat for the original.
SenatorCooper. Very well; let it be substituted. It has been identified, and will be identified.
Mr.Ball. Yes, it will be; I will identify it for the record as a photostat of an affidavit of Cecil J. McWatters made before Patsy Collins, Notary Public of Dallas County, Tex., November 22, 1963.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit 377, and received in evidence.)
Mr.Ball. Now, having read that, first of all, does that look like your signature, Mr. McWatters?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir; it does.
Mr.Ball. Do you remember the circumstances under which you made that affidavit?
Mr.McWatters. Well, I just told them the best I could remember.
Mr.Ball. I am showing this to you for the purpose of refreshing your memory.
Mr.McWatters. Yes, I know.
Mr.Ball. I know it has been several months.
Mr.McWatters. Yes, I know what you mean.
Mr.Ball. And sometimes when you see something that you signed before it refreshes your memory.
Mr.McWatters. It sure does.
Yes, that is what you mean, I know what you mean, I said that looked like the man I saw.
Mr.Ball. In this affidavit, it says, it mentions the fact that when you went to Marsalis and picked up a woman.
Mr.McWatters. Yes.
Mr.Ball. You asked her if she knew the President had been shot, you told us about that a few moments ago.
Mr.McWatters. Yes.
Mr.Ball. She thought you were kidding, and you told her, "I told her if she didn't believe me to ask the man behind her, that he had told me the President was shot in the temple."
Mr.McWatters. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Was the man, was that the teenager?
Mr.McWatters. That is right, sir, that was the teenage boy. In other words, he was, I would say, around 17 or 18 years old.
Mr.Ball. You said here, "The man didn't say anything but he was grinning."
Mr.McWatters. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Do you think that happened?
Mr.McWatters. Well, when the lady asked him, he just kind of grinned,in other words, and she said, "This is not a grinning or laughing matter," or something to that effect I don't remember just exactly what she did say.
Mr.Ball. Now you told them at that time you didn't know where you let this man off.
Mr.McWatters. That is right, I didn't at that time, I didn't know where he got off.
Mr.Ball. You told us a few moments ago you thought he got off another place.
Mr.McWatters. That is right, sir.
Mr.Ball. What was that place?
Mr.McWatters. He got off at Brownley, because the man rode with me the next day.
Mr.Ball. You went out there the next day, did you?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. With an FBI man or a Dallas policeman?
Mr.McWatters. No, Imean——
Mr.Ball. The same teenager?
Mr.McWatters. The same teenager rode with me the next day.
Mr.Ball. And you noticed he got off there?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, and I noticed, and I asked him, like I told him, I said that I was—I thought that, you know, that he was, when he first got on down there, I says, "From all indications, we had you kind of pinpointed as the man who might have been mixed up in the assassination and everything."And——
Mr.Ball. Do I understand the day after you made the affidavit, this would be the 23d of November?
Mr.McWatters. Yes.
Mr.Ball. That this same teenager got on your bus again?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, he got on.
Mr.Ball. And you noticed where you let him off?
Mr.McWatters. I noticed where I let him off, yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Is that the reason that today you remember he got off?
Mr.McWatters. That is it today I remember, just like I say, I remember I talked to him the next day, and he told me where he got on, and he told me where he got on, and where he got off and where he lived, and, you knowthat——
Mr.Ball. Has he been on your bus since?
Mr.McWatters. Yes.
Mr.Ball. He has?
Mr.McWatters. He has rode with me since.
Mr.Ball. Yes. I see.
Did you give him a transfer that day?
Mr.McWatters. No, because he gets on and he lives within about two blocks of the busline, in other words, where he gets off.
Mr.Ball. Do you know this boy's name?
Mr.McWatters. I believe his name is Milton Jones.
Mr.Ball. Milton Jones?
Mr.McWatters. Milton Jones. I don't believe I know where he lives, but I pass where he lives. But he told me his name was Milton Jones and he told me he was 17.
Mr.Ball. Did he ever tell you where he works?
Mr.McWatters. He told me that, I believe, he goes to school half a day, believe he said and I believe he goes home and he has a part-time job, but he never did state where he works.
Mr.Ball. Did he tell you where he went to school?
Mr.McWatters. No, sir; he never did tell me where he went to school.
Mr.Ball. Or where he worked?
Mr.McWatters. Where he worked, either one.
Mr.Ball. You notice in the affidavit there it says, "This man"—referring to the man who wasgrinning——
Mr.McWatters. Yes.
Mr.Ball. "This man looks like the No. 1 man I saw in the lineup today."
Mr.McWatters. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Who was the No. 2 man you saw in the lineup on November 22, 1963?
Mr.McWatters. Well, just like I say, he was the shortest man in the lineup, in other words, when they brought these men out there, in other words, he was about the shortest, and the lightest weight one, I guess, was the reason I say that he looked like the man, because the rest of them were larger menthan——
Mr.Ball. Well, now, at that time, when you saw thelineup——
Mr.McWatters. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Were you under the impression that this man that you saw in the lineup and whom you pointed out to the police, was the teenage boy who had been grinning?
Mr.McWatters. I was, yes, sir; I was under theimpression——
Mr.Ball. That was the fellow?
Mr.McWatters. That was the fellow.
Mr.Ball. You were not under the impression then that night when you saw the lineup that the No. 2 man in the lineup was the man who got off the bus, to whom you had given a transfer?
Mr.McWatters. That is what I say. In other words, when I told them, I said, the only way is the man, that he is smaller, in other words, he kind of had a thin like face and he weighs less than any one of them. The only one I could identify at all would be the smaller man on account he was the only one who could come near fitting the description.
Mr.Ball. Let me ask you this, though. Did you tell them the man, the smaller man, you saw in the lineup, did you tell them that you thought he was the man who got off your bus and got the transfer or the man who was on the bus who was the teenager who was grinning?
Mr.McWatters. Well, I really thought he was the man who was on the bus.
Mr.Ball. That stayed on the bus?
Mr.McWatters. That stayed on the bus.
Mr.Ball. And you didn't think he was the man who got off the bus and to whom you gave a transfer?
Mr.McWatters. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. At that time you didn't?
Mr.McWatters. That is why I say I pinpointed that transfer on that boy as far as that is concerned. But at first, just like I say, I really thought from the height and weight of the two men, I mean was just like I say, was both of them were small. In the lineup they had, in other words, bigger men, in other words, he was the smallest man at the lineup.
Mr.Ball. We have got—we have this diagram that you have already drawn of the bus which has several initials on it. Could you tell me where on the bus this lady sat who told the teenager it was no grinning matter?
Mr.McWatters. Well, now, that is, in other words, I don't think at that time—now this teenager was still on the bus near, but I had a couple of more passengers on there, I believe I had two women on there, but I can't recall just, when I picked her up where she sat down on the bus.
Mr.Ball. Do you remember you said to the woman, "Look at that man behind you?"
Mr.McWatters. Yes, she was standing up here at the fare, paying fare.
Mr.Ball. And the teenager was where?
Mr.McWatters. He was sitting right here.
Mr.Ball. At the place "O", is that right?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, at the place "O".
Mr.Ball. I see.
Mr.McWatters. That is where the conversation was going on.
Mr.Ball. Mr. McWatters, that affidavit you have there, will you look at another item you have there?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. "Today, November 22, 1963, about 12:40 p.m., I was driving Marsalis Bus No. 1213."
Mr.McWatters. That is right.
Mr.Ball. First of all, you have referred to that as another bus, Munger Bus, is that the same bus?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir; in other words, that number there is my run number right here on my card.
Mr.Ball. I understand that, but do you call that run the Marsalis run as well as the Munger run?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir. Well, here you can—let me show you here on this schedule right here, Marsalis, Ramona, Elwood and Munger.
Mr.Ball. Can we take this and have aXerox——
Mr.McWatters. You can just take the whole thing.
Mr.Ball. All right. We will have a Xerox of this and mark it 378, a Xerox copy.
Will you identify that document and tell me what it is?
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit 378, for identification.)
Mr.McWatters. This is a schedule, I will just say a bus schedule.
Mr.Ball. That is for the Marsalis-Ramona-Elwood-Munger run?
Mr.McWatters. That is correct.
Mr.Ball. Run 1213. Is this the run schedule that was in effect on November 22, 1963?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr.Ball. It shows here at St. Paul you were to leave at 12:36; is that correct?
Mr.McWatters. That is correct.
Mr.Ball. We will make a photostat of that and we will give you back the original.
Mr.McWatters. You can keep that if you want to. They made another copy of it.
Mr.Ball. All right, then, we will keep this as an original.
Can this be introduced into evidence, Senator?
SenatorCooper. Yes, let it be made a part of the evidence.
(The document heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibit No. 378, was received in evidence.)
Mr.Ball. I have a few more questions to ask you, a few more questions, Mr. McWatters.
Let's look again at this affidavit.
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. "I picked up a man on the lower end of town on Elm around Houston," as I remember you didn't stop at Elm and Houston; you stopped at Record and Houston for a pickup.
Mr.McWatters. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Do you remember having picked up any man around the lower end of town at Elm around Houston?
Mr.McWatters. Elm and Houston?
Mr.Ball. Yes.
Mr.McWatters. No, no, sir; I didn't pick up. I made a statement here I pickedup——
Mr.Ball. Take a look at it, "I picked up a man on the lower end of town on Elm around Houston."
Mr.McWatters. No, I didn't. I picked—"I picked a man up at the lower end of town at Elm," no, sir, I didn't pick up no man.
No, I was tied up in traffic there. Market Street is the—I must not have read that very good when I signed that, because I sure didn't. No, I didn't.
Mr.Ball. Did you pick up a man at Record and Houston?
Mr.McWatters. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. You didn't?
Mr.McWatters. No, sir; that is not even no stop.
Mr.Ball. In other words, this statement is not an accurate statement?
Mr.McWatters. That is right, sir, because in fact that day the police wouldn't let nobody, in other words they run them buses through but they wouldn't let nothing stop there, in other words.
Mr.Ball. Let's get back to that lineup.
Did you pick out one man or two men that night as people you had seen, as a person you had seen before?
Mr.McWatters. Well, I picked out, the only one that I told them it was the short man that I picked out up there.
Mr.Ball. And you thought he was the teenager whom you described?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, first that is what I thought he was.
Mr.Ball. Now you have named him Milton Jones.
Mr.McWatters. Yes, hewas——
Mr.Ball. Now you realize you were mistaken in your identification that night?
Mr.McWatters. That is right.
Mr.Ball. As I understand it, neither then nor now are you able to identify or say that you have again seen the man that got off your bus to whom you gave a transfer?
Mr.McWatters. No, sir; I couldn't. I could not identify him.
Mr.Ball. This Beckley bus that we talked about, remember the one that has the starting point at St. Paul andElm——
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. The same as your bus, the Marsalis bus?
Mr.McWatters. Yes.
Mr.Ball. What is the difference in the time run, what time does the Beckley bus leave—let me withdraw the question.
Your bus leaves St. Paul and Elm at 12:36, scheduled to leave there as of November 22d?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Using the same schedule, can you tell me at what time around 12:30 or so that the Beckley bus would leave Elm and St. Paul and proceed westerly on Elm?
Mr.McWatters. He is scheduled in there the same time as I am, 12:36.
Mr.Ball. 12:36. Was that bus in the line?
Mr.McWatters. No. In other words, that bus was behind me, in other words, because when I got there as a general rule, when we pull up there every day, in other words, I am coming in one direction and he is another, in other words, most every day, we will pull up at this intersection at the same time.
Now, whichever way the light changes is who gets, in other words, who gets in front of who. But at that day, I am sure that I was ahead of the Beckley bus.
Mr.Ball. You are sure you were ahead of it?
Mr.McWatters. Because there wasn't another bus in front of me. I was the first bus down there that was tied up in there in the traffic.
Mr.Ball. Did you see the Beckley bus?
Mr.McWatters. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. You don't remember whether he was behind you or not?
Mr.McWatters. I don't remember whether he was behind me or not.
Mr.Ball. Can you transfer from your bus to the Beckley bus?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir; sure can.
Mr.Ball. Any particular transfer point?
Mr.McWatters. Well, there are particular transfer points, but we don't question anybody within the downtown section with a transfer.
Mr.Ball. If you gave a transfer to your bus, then that transfer would be good on a Beckley bus any place along Elm, wouldn't it?
Mr.McWatters. That is right, it sure would.
Mr.Ball. Up to the place where you change courses?
Mr.McWatters. It would be accepted; yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Your course is westerly on Elm, is identical with that of the Beckley bus between St. Paul and Houston, isn't it?
Mr.McWatters. That is correct.
Mr.Ball. And from that point you go south on Houston, and the Beckley bus continues west on Elm?
Mr.McWatters. That is correct.
Mr.Ball. So that would be a normal transfer point, wouldn't it?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Houston and Elm?
Mr.McWatters. That would be a transfer. In other words, now, like I say, Lamar is the general transfer point of where all the buses cross.
Mr.Ball. Now, that night of the lineup, when you identified this one shortman——
Mr.McWatters. Yes.
Mr.Ball. As being probably the teenager that had been on thebus——
Mr.McWatters. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Was there anything unusual in the conduct of anyone in the lineup?
Mr.McWatters. No.
Mr.Ball. Did any man in the lineup talk more than anyone else?
Mr.McWatters. No, I believe they had a guy that asked them their address, and they said, "address" and I don't know, he asked them, I believe he asked some of them where they lived or some or them where they worked, or I don't remember just what, in other words, he asked some enough, every one of them to say some few words.
Mr.Ball. You could hear them talk?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir; you could hear them talk.
Mr.Ball. Was any one man boisterous, mean, loud, anything of that sort?
Mr.McWatters. No, not that I could tell any difference. They all talked to me as, in other words, you just asked them their name and address. If they did, I didn't pay any attention to it.
(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)
Mr.Ball. This is Exhibit No. 376 that I will show you again. You have indicated on the map the course of your bus south on Marsalis. Is there any other bus route that goes south on any street east of Marsalis?
Mr.McWatters. You mean that crosses it this way?
Mr.Ball. No, goes south.
Mr.McWatters. Well, let's see.
Mr.Ball. Is there a main highway called Denley? Is there a bus route on Ewing?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir. Bus route on Ewing.
Mr.Ball. That goes south on Ewing?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Does that bus come anywhere near, does that bus run down Elm?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Where does it turn to get to Ewing?
Mr.McWatters. In other words, it turns, it goes just like the Marsalis bus here goes, until hegets——
Mr.Ball. Let's start up at Elm here, Elm and Houston now. Does the bus that goes down Ewing come west on Elm?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Does it go by St. Paul and Elm?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Have a starting point there?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir; it is a final point for it right there.
Mr.Ball. And it goes west on Elm?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Where does it turn off Elm?
Mr.McWatters. It turns the same place as I do, in other words.
Mr.Ball. South on Houston?
Mr.McWatters. South on Houston.
Mr.Ball. And then does it go across the Houston Street viaduct?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Then it turns on, how does it get onto Ewing?
Mr.McWatters. It comes on out to Marsalis to, let's see, I have to find the zoo. That is where it turns right there at the Marsalis Park, and turns and goes over to Ewing, let's see, what is the name of that—this bus turns to the left off Marsalis there, it is a park—there is a big expressway there and it is the first street when it crosses over the expressway where it turns off of Marsalis onOpera. The name of the bus is Ramona, it is the same, in other words, it is the same line as this other one.
Mr.Ball. As I understand it now the bus that goes down Ewing comes off the Houston Street viaduct as far as, comes down the Houston Street viaduct as far as Marsalis, does it?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir; and it goes south on Marsalis.
Mr.Ball. It goes south on Marsalis?
Mr.McWatters. That is right.
Mr.Ball. And it turns over to Ewing, that would be east on Ewing?
Mr.McWatters. Yes; that would be east.
Mr.Ball. At or about what point?
Mr.McWatters. Well, in other words, that is the Marsalis Zoo is where it is, after you cross the expressway there, it is the first street, Opera is the name of that and it goes right down to Ewing.
Mr.Ball. Then at the corner of 11th, at the intersection of 11th and Marsalis both buses travel the same route?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir; they sure do. Both buses travel the same route to Marsalis and the Ramona bus on that part travel the same route.
Mr.Ball. Probably on the same route.
Now, I show you this document which is the bus schedule of Marsalis-Ramona-Elwood-Munger, and it shows you leave St. Paul at 12:36 and you arrive at Lamar 12:40.
The bus transfers are punched you told me for 1 o'clock. We have a transfer here that you have seen or we will show you in a few minutes as soon as it gets here, which has a punch mark of 1 o'clock. You told Senator Cooper that you usually punched within 15 minutes of the time you reached the transfer points?
Mr.McWatters. Yes.
Mr.Ball. If that is the case,what——
Mr.McWatters. You mean why did I have it punched at 1 o'clock?
Mr.Ball. Yes.
Mr.McWatters. Because I punch it p.m. In other words, I have a punch, I am going to Lakewood, I mean I am going Marsalis and I am going back Lakewood, so I just take me two books of transfers. Instead of punching one of them a.m. and one p.m. I just punched them p.m.
Mr.Ball. Do you punch within 15 minutes of the time you reach the transfer points?
Mr.McWatters. That is the way that the transfers are supposed to be cut.
Mr.Ball. Well, if you reach Lamar, if you were to reach Lamar at 12:40, what time, according to the rules should you punch it?
Mr.McWatters. I should have punched it at 12:45.
Mr.Ball. At 12:45?
Mr.McWatters. But I would have to punch one book a.m. and another one p.m., so I just punched both of them p.m.
Mr.Ball. In other words, what you do is punch on the hour rather than the 45 and 15 minutes usually?
Mr.McWatters. Yes.
Mr.Ball. In other words, your usual practice is not to punch on the 15-minute interval, is that right, but to punch on the hour?
Mr.McWatters. Well, just like I say within the closest of the hour like that, in other words.
Mr.Ball. Suppose today you were wanting to punch some transfers at the end of the line and you knew you were going to get to Lamar at 12:40. Would you punch—what would you punch it?
Mr.McWatters. I work that run all the time, I punch at 1 o'clock every day. As I say I worked it 2 years and as I say in order to keep from punching one of them a.m. and one p.m., for the difference in the hour there, I just punch them p.m.
Mr.Ball. I don't quite understand that. Doesn't your p.m. start at after 12 o'clock?
Mr.McWatters. Well, the way the transfers are there, did you notice howthey was, they run them until—see how 12:45 there, in other words, that is what they use that up to a.m. in other words.
Mr.Ball. It is 12:45 a.m., it runs up to a.m.
Mr.McWatters. That is what they run it to a.m. In other words, after 12:45 or in there, in other words, everything is punched p.m.
Mr.Ball. In other words, everything in the hour from 12 on is punched a.m., the day time, 12 to one is a.m., 12 to 12:45, for that hour, a transfer good in that hour is punched a.m., is that right?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, it can be punched a.m. up to, just like 12:45.
Mr.Ball. And the next punch is 1 o'clock and that is p.m.?
Mr.McWatters. That is p.m.; yes, sir. That is the way they have them.
RepresentativeFord. The day that you punched this particular transfer, November 22?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir.
RepresentativeFord. You punched them the same that day as you did every other day?
Mr.McWatters. That is right. Every day, in other words, I just punch them p.m. I punch them p.m., and in other words, so it will be just a straight cut across it.
RepresentativeFord. Is that the usual practice for all bus drivers to use this practice?
Mr.McWatters. The practice they are supposed to cut them within the quarter of the hour, but in other words, I just have been working that run and I just, it is p.m., and I just make one trip one way and one back the other, and so I—all I carry are two books of transfers and so I just punch two books p.m., using one going one way at 1 o'clock and the other coming back at 2.
RepresentativeFord. This is the practice you have used for 2 years approximately?
Mr.McWatters. That is right, when I worked that run, in other words, when I am going one way at 1 o'clock, coming back from the other end of the line I set them at 2. I am back in there at, my next trip I am back in there at Lamar Street, I think it is 1:38 but I always just set them at 2 o'clock.
Mr.Ball. We have a couple of more pictures here. 378 and 379 which are pictures of the interior of the bus—Nos. 379 and 380. (Picture marked for identification as Commission Exhibit No. 374 is the same as Commission Exhibit No. 379.)
I will first show you 379. Is that a picture of the bus from front to rear of your bus?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir; that is the front and that is the rear.
Mr.Ball. Here is 380, is that a picture of the bus taken from the front taken looking towards the rear?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. I offer these in evidence, too.
RepresentativeFord. So admitted.
(The pictures referred to were marked Commission's Exhibits Nos. 379 and 380 and received in evidence.)
Mr.Ball. I have here an exhibit which I would like to have marked as 381 which can be identified as a transfer issued by Dallas Transit Company, Friday, November 22, 1963.
Do you identify it, can you tell me, if you have ever seen that transfer before?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, that is my punch mark right on that there; p.m.
(The transfer was marked Commission Exhibit No. 381 for identification.)
Mr.Ball. You issued it, did you?
Mr.McWatters. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Tell me when you issued it, on what run?
Mr.McWatters. I issued it on Marsalis and Munger line at I would say, around to the best of my knowledge it would be around 12:40 or somewheres in that vicinity on November 22.
Mr.Ball. And it has your punch mark, has it?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir; that is my punch mark.
Mr.Ball. Identify it punched in the p.m. section?
Mr.McWatters. Of the Lakewood column here on the transfer.
Mr.Ball. When did you punch it exactly? Where were you when you punched it?
Mr.McWatters. I punched it before I left the end of the line, in other words.
Mr.Ball. This is number 004459, is the transfer number. Entitled "The Shoppers Transfer." Every transfer has a separate number, has it?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir; everyone has a separate number.
Mr.Ball. What we would like to do is mark a photostat of the transfer as 381A and substitute the photostat and we can return the transfer to the custody of the FBI.
RepresentativeFord. The exhibit will be admitted.
(The photostat referred to was marked Commission Exhibit 381A and received in evidence.)
RepresentativeFord. How many of those transfers did you issue on this particular run?
Mr.McWatters.Well——
RepresentativeFord. Up to the time you passed the Texas School Depository.
Mr.McWatters. I really don't know because I didn't, see. I didn't know anything—I didn't put out any—most of the transfers that you put out at this time or that time of day are for elderly women which get the shopper's transfers, in other words. It has got a line there, and it entitles them to a free ride back to where they came from, in other words, and that time of the morning, because when I get downtown, in other words, you can catch a bus at Elm Street going to any place that I would go without having a transfer, in other words.
RepresentativeFord. Would you have any recollection of how many passengers you picked up from the beginning of the line to the time that this man got on at the middle of the block on Elm Street?
Mr.McWatters. Well, I don't—I recall that I didn't have very many passengers that day, because I figured that everybody had done gone to town to see the parade, to see the President, and it just wasn't what few passengers I recall was mostly elderly women that was going into town.
I don't recall just how many of them I did have on the bus.
RepresentativeFord. But you did have these two men, the teenager and this other young man?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir; that were on the bus.
RepresentativeFord. And you very specifically recall giving a transfer to this woman with the suitcase and the man who was in the second seat on the right-hand side?
Mr.McWatters. On the right side that got off. In other words, to the best of my knowledge that is the only two transfers that I put out going through town that I can recall at all, I mean, because I don't recall putting out any more transfers than those two that I put out when I was held up there in traffic.
Mr.Ball. Mr. McWatters, on this transfer is the name of Shopper's Transfer.
Does that have any significance?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir; that is what I was telling him. In other words, if they want a Shoppers; well I put my punch mark in that Shoppers there, which they cannot use it for a transfer, in other words, any more than other than—all the stores, most of them in downtown Dallas, if you buy as much as a dollar's worth between the period of ten and four in the afternoon they give you a little white slip which entitled you to ride what is called the Shopper's Pass. It rides you back, but in other words you have to, a passenger has to, ask for it in other words.
When they say a Shopper, you take a punch and punch your punch mark where it says Shoppers, but they are not supposed to use the transfer then to transfer to another bus. They are supposed, in other words, where it is punched in the store, get it exchanged for their return fare.
Mr.Ball. In other words, all your transfers have on them printed the word "Shopper's Transfer"?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir; they do.
Mr.Ball. And in order to make it a Shopper's Transfer so that the transfer can be exchanged for a merchandise coupon to ride home, it has to have your punch in the Shopper's Transfer area, is that right?
Mr.McWatters. That is correct, yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did you know, did you remember, an elderly woman getting on your bus some place on Elm after you left St. Paul?
Mr.McWatters. Not that I recall.
Mr.Ball. Do you remember when this man, do you remember when this man knocked on your window, and you opened your bus and let him on, some place around Murphy or Griffin and Elm, that an elderly woman got up in the bus and moved?
Did you see that or anything like that?
Mr.McWatters. No, I don't recall.
Mr.Ball. Do you know whether or not you left an elderly woman off down around in the Oak Cliff area some place?
Mr.McWatters. The best I can recall I had two or three or four elderly women, the best I can remember on the bus when I left town, but I don't recall where any of them got off.
Mr.Ball. Do you know a woman named Mary Bledsoe?
Did you pick anybody up at St. Paul and Elm?
Mr.McWatters. I really don't—I really can't recall whether I did or not.
Mr.Ball. I have no further questions.
SenatorCooper. I would like to ask a few, if I may.
Am I correct in saying that the direction of your bus at the time of these events you have testified to it was going west on Elm Street?
Mr.McWatters. West on Elm. In other words, west, the streets of Dallas all run east and west.
SenatorCooper. But when you got to Houston Street, then you turned south?
Mr.McWatters. I turned south, that is correct.
SenatorCooper. Did your bus pass the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr.McWatters.Well——
SenatorCooper. I mean does it pass it directly?
Mr.McWatters. It doesn't pass it directly, no, sir. In other words, where I turn to the left on Houston Street, the book store is across on the opposite corner.
SenatorCooper. Now, as you reached Lamar Street, or did you reach Lamar Street on that date before you passed near the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr.McWatters. You mean—yes, I have to pass Lamar Street before I get down to there.
SenatorCooper. Now, this first affidavit you made on November22——
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir.
SenatorCooper. Which has been referred to in the testimony.
Mr.McWatters. Yes.
SenatorCooper. It stated in this affidavit that, "I picked up a man on the lower end of town on Elm around Houston."
Now, you picked up a man at that time it would have been after you passed Lamar Street?
Mr.McWatters. It would have been after I passed Lamar.
SenatorCooper. The remainder of the affidavit, which has been made a part of thetestimony——
Mr.McWatters. Yes.
SenatorCooper. Refers to that you picked up a woman and you asked her if she knew the President had been shot, and then the man—you asked her then to speak to the man behind her.
Mr.McWatters. Yes.
SenatorCooper. "Who said the President was shot in the temple." Now, then, this incident that you testified to in this affidavit, was after you had passed Elm Street?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir; that is right.
SenatorCooper. Was the man that you were talking about in this affidavit the teenager?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir.
SenatorCooper. At the time this affidavit was made, were you asked about any other man who may have been on the run that day at that time?
Mr.McWatters. I don't remember whether I was or not.
SenatorCooper. What was it then that caused you at some time later to remember that another man had got on the bus near Murphy and had left the bus, as you have stated in 2 or 3 blocks in the vicinity of Elm Street?
Mr.McWatters. Well, just like I say, the best I can remember is the man, I believe in fact beside the boy, I believe he was the only man on board the bus. After I got to recall, in otherwords——
SenatorCooper. But what I am asking you is what it was that caused you to remember the teenager at the time you made this affidavit on the 22d, and what it was that, why it was that, you didn't at that time speak of the other man who had got on the bus?
Mr.McWatters. That is what I say, it just didn't—it just doesn't register, I don't know.
SenatorCooper. Were you asked whether or not any other man was on the bus?
Mr.McWatters. I don't remember whether I was or not.
SenatorCooper. When was it that you remembered about the second man being on the bus, the man that you now state got on around Murphy Street and got off at Elm?