(At this point Representative Ford left the hearing room.)
Mr.Paine. It is possible we would have mentioned Welch. I don't think I would have mentioned Welch, I didn't know anything specifically about the John Birch Society at the time.
SenatorCooper. Was Walker, he was talking about Walker?
Mr.Paine. He was the only one whose name was mentioned.
SenatorCooper. Are you sure whether or not Oswald made any comment at any time during this conversation about Walker?
Mr.Paine. I don't remember, as I say, I remember it very vaguely but I remember telling that instance of his conducting that ceremony. But—and Walker was known, I knew that Walker was known to Lee. And at least it achieved a certain feeling of similarity there, even though the similarity was only superficial in our views and feelings about it. I don't think he went on to describe any—it was mostly a ploy on my part to curry him or make him feel more at ease.
Mr.Liebeler. It was clear to you at that time that both you and Mr. Oswald had an adverse view of General Walker and did not think favorably of him, is that correct?
Mr.Paine. That is correct.
Mr.Liebeler. Had you heard of Lee Oswald before you had occasion to go and pick him up that time and bring him to your house for dinner?
Mr.Paine. Yes; I heard about him as soon as Ruth had been invited to this party back in February, whenever it was.
Mr.Liebeler. What was the basis of your wife's interest in the Oswalds and of your interest in the Oswalds?
Mr.Paine. Everett Glover invited us knowing that Ruth was studying Russian and that—asked us if we would be interested in meeting this—they were presented to us as an American who had defected to Russia and decided he didn't like it and came back and brought a Russian wife with him. Would we like to meet these people? Yes, that sounded interesting.
Mr.Dulles. Was this the Fort Worth group?
Mr.Paine. No; this is in Dallas.
Mr.Dulles. Dallas.
Mr.Liebeler. After this first meeting with Lee Oswald when was the next time that you saw him?
Mr.Paine. That would be after he returned, when Marina was living with us, when he returned, we thought he returned from looking for work from Houston but apparently it had been his trip to Mexico.
Mr.Liebeler. Tell us the circumstances of how you met him and what happened at that time?
Mr.Dulles. Could we have the date of this?
Mr.Liebeler. This would have been what, early October or late September of 1963?
Mr.Paine. I think Marina was there about a week, at least a week before he came, if she came the 24th of September, which comes to my mind, it would be in the early part of October. I would normally appear at the house on Fridays, sometimes occasionally on Sundays, I would come on Friday evening,and——
Mr.Liebeler. You were separated from your wife at this time?
Mr.Paine. That is correct.
Mr.Liebeler. And you had your own apartment at Arlington, Tex.?
Mr.Paine. Grand Prairie.
Mr.Liebeler. Grand Prairie.
Mr.Paine. I don't particularly remember, the occasions don't stand out one from another. The first two meetings, I think were before he found work, and at first I talked a little bit about the problem of finding work with him.
Mr.Dulles. These were the first two meetings after the preliminary meeting?
Mr.Paine. Yes. While Marina was staying with us.
Mr.Liebeler. Go through your testimony, Mr. Paine and tell us as best you can recall how many times you saw Oswald after his return from New Orleans, up until the time of his assassination?
Mr.Paine. I think I saw him every weekend on Friday; I think he was there except for the weekend, before the assassination, exceptional.
I would arrive on Tuesday or Wednesdays and, of course, he was not thereand there was Ruth and Marina. I would simply come in on Sunday when he was generally there.
Also, I quite specifically remember on the long holiday he had some period there, I don't remember, what celebration it is, when Bell did not have that day off and he did, so he was there that morning, a Monday morning on that date of that holiday, perhaps you can feed me the date.
Mr.Liebeler. Would that be November 8th, 9th and 10th, 1963?
Mr.Paine. I think that is right.
Mr.Liebeler. Was that the last time you saw him?
Mr.Paine. That would be correct; yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, tell us the circumstances about how Oswald arrived in Irving upon his return from New Orleans as best you can recall it, what happened, what was said.
Mr.Paine. I must not have been there when the phone call arrived but I think Ruth reported it to me so that Ruth said that Marina was very pleased, very happy to receive this call, a surprise or something. I think I had at one or two times seen her answer a call from him, and I observed she was glad to have this call from him but I wasn't there when he first called, I don't believe.
Mr.Dulles. Was that the call from New Orleans to Irving?
Mr.Paine. No; that is the call from somewhere in Dallas to Irving asking if he could come out. I don't know of a call from New Orleans to Irving.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he subsequently come out to the house in Irving that weekend?
Mr.Paine. Then he came out that weekend. I suppose he came out on a Friday and it was probably before I got over there, I arrived about six.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember if he was there when you arrived home that weekend?
Mr.Paine. I don't remember that. I think he was there; yes. I think he was there because otherwise I would have seen that meeting. I did not see them first embrace each other.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he say anything to you about where he had been?
Mr.Paine. No; I thought I knew where he had been. Ruth had told me he was looking for work in Houston.
Mr.Liebeler. Ruth had told you that before this date?
Mr.Paine. I don't know.
Mr.Liebeler. There was no conversation among any one at that time about Oswald having been in Mexico.
Mr.Paine. No; it was a complete surprise to Ruth and myself. When we saw this letter where he mentioned having been to Mexico, Ruth took it as an example of his colossal lying.
Mr.Liebeler. Tell us about this letter, what were the circumstances surrounding that?
Mr.Paine. He had written a letter using her typewriter and her desk to a party I don't know.
Mr.Dulles. That is Ruth's typewriter and desk?
Mr.Paine. Ruth's typewriter and he left the rough draft of the letter on her desk, not folded, just out there on her desk, in English. Ruth had given me the impression it was there for a couple of days. Actually it was there for a day and a half or so. I think he wrote it on Saturday and we then moved the furniture on Sunday night.
Mr.Dulles. This would be Saturday, November what?
Mr.Paine. This might be that holiday November. I don't remember for sure about that.
Mr.Liebeler. Mr. Paine, you and I discussed this question yesterday and I asked you whether you recalled seeing Oswald again after you had discussed this letter with your wife. What did you tell me?
Mr.Paine. I thought probably not but we figured out the dates from my probable reaction that I read that letter and then had I encountered him again I would have had a different, I would have had questions or feelings or something in response to this letter and since I didn't encounter him with those feelings I must not have seen him again.
Mr.Liebeler. So that would place the date of your seeing this letter as approximately shortly after the weekend of November 8, 9, and 10?
Mr.Paine. That is correct.
Mr.Liebeler. I show you Commission Exhibit 103 and ask you if you ever saw the original of this letter and if you did to tell us the circumstances surrounding that event.
Mr.Paine. Yes; I saw this letter. I remembered most of the contents. I apparently didn't remember that he didn't use his real name, I was reading something else at the time and Ruth handed me this letter and it took a while—I didn't read it as thoroughly as I could have.
Mr.Dulles. Could you tell us just briefly the contents of this letter just for the record?
Mr.Liebeler. Yes, sir; apparently it is a draft of a letter that Oswald wrote in his own hand. The Commission does have a copy of the actual letter, and it was a letter to the Russian Embassy, I believe in Washington.
Mr.Dulles. The Russian Embassy in Washington?
Mr.Liebeler. Yes, sir; in which he tells them about his trip to Mexico and his political activity on behalf of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. I believe it includes the words "notorious FBI," which is no longer interested in his political activity in Texas.
Mr.Dulles. Was this letter ever sent?
Mr.Liebeler. I believe it was.
Mr.Dulles. There was a letter sent like this? You said you had the original?
Mr.Rankin. It is in evidence.
Mr.Dulles. What was sent, a letter like this?
Mr.Rankin. A redraft.
Mr.Dulles. A redraft.
Mr.Paine. Typewritten copy.
Mr.Liebeler. This letter refers to the fact that Oswald had been in Mexico, does it not?
Mr.Paine. Yes; it tells of his visit to the Cuban Consul and the Soviet Embassy there.
Mr.Liebeler. Did your wife call that to your attention when she showed you this letter?
Mr.Paine. We took it, she took it, and I likewise took it as somewhat of a fabricated story, I didn't suppose he had been down to Mexico. I read "Dear Sirs" there, I read "Dear Lisa." I thought he was writing to a friend, and Ruth pointed out to me after I had given the letter back to her, Ruth was somewhat irked that I didn't take more interest in the thing. I think I might have—no, I don't know as I might have since I might have dismissed it as a lie but anyway Ruth was irked and didn't show it to me again and I asked her now what was in that letter that I didn't see and she didn't tell me.
Mr.Liebeler. This was all prior to the assassination?
Mr.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. What did she say to you?
Mr.Paine. Ruth was quite bothered by that letter, and apparently had—apparently I hadn't really taken it in. I said, "The heck with it. Yes; it is a fantastic lie, isn't that amazing that he will fabricate such stories here."
Mr.Liebeler. What did she say?
Mr.Paine. No; she said—she approached me and said, "I never realized how much he could lie" or that he was a liar or something like that, and "I want you to read this letter." So I put aside the thing I was reading in which I was more interested and read most of the letter, not the latter part about having used another name.
And then I thought it was too personal, "Dear Lisa," so I thought he was telling her, being rather braggadocio telling about his exploits which were rather imaginary and I put it out of my mind. Then later Ruth asked me what did I think aboutit——
Mr.Liebeler. This was before the assassination that she asked you this?
Mr.Paine. I think so.
Mr.Liebeler. Was it later the same day?
Mr.Paine. No; I think it probably was another day but I don't remember.
Mr.Liebeler. What did she say?
Mr.Paine. Well, she was—I think I said, "Let me see that letter again," and she said, "No; if you didn't absorb it, never mind." So, heck, if she felt that way, I wasn't going to bother. My first impulse was to throw it aside and pay no attention to it. If she felt that way I continued to do it.
Mr.Liebeler. Who brought the letter up the second time, did Ruth bring it up?
Mr.Paine. Yes; Ruth brought it up.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember whether there was any event that caused her to bring it up or did she bring it up out of the clear blue sky or what?
Mr.Paine. I don't remember having slept with her but I have the impression she brought it up while I was in bed anyway. So it might have been, just be, I was staying late that night also, I don't know.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you know that Oswald had given Marina a charm made out of a Mexican peso at the time that you read this letter?
Mr.Paine. No; I didn't.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you learn about that at any time prior to the assassination?
Mr.Paine. Not that I remember.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you note the fact that Oswald had a record of Mexican music in your home prior to the assassination?
Mr.Paine. I didn't know that.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you subsequently learn that Oswald had given Marina this charm made from a Mexican peso?
Mr.Paine. Yes; I did.
Mr.Liebeler. Under what circumstances?
Mr.Paine. The FBI came out and they were wondering whether Oswald had used my shop to mount his sight so we went out to look at the shop and tools and we looked at the threading tap and what not, the threading tap looked as though it hadn't been used but the drill press seemed to have little chips of metal on it and then Ruth remembered that he had gone in there and used the drill press to have drilled out this coin which Marina put around her neck, and I think she then mentioned it was a peso. But it hadn't sunk into Ruth with significance of its being a peso, hadn't impressed itself upon her prior to the assassination.
Mr.Liebeler. So that neither you nor your wife believed that Oswald had been in Mexico prior to the assassination?
Mr.Paine. You will have to ask Ruth about that. That was my impression he hadn't been there.
Mr.Liebeler. Your wife hadn't said anything to you that indicated that she believed it?
Mr.Paine. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, you mentioned before the fact that you had gone with Oswald to a meeting of the American Civil Liberties Union, is that correct?
Mr.Paine. That is correct.
Mr.Liebeler. When did you do that?
Mr.Paine. That was the day after Stevenson had been stoned.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you tell us the circumstances of that event?
Mr.Paine. That was a Friday I had intended to go, I had also invited Frank Krystinik for his first visit, I had been telling him about the ACLU. So I invited Lee to come thinking it might be part—I was not really talking to him very much, but just being civil but I thought it might be helpful for him to see something in which I was interested, that I might find some way that he might find an interest, something constructive to do.
So, I took him in my car, he and I alone, and on the way, which takes about 35 minutes, described the ACLU to him, and he didn't know about it, and described its purpose. Then we went to the meeting which was a meeting, first we saw a movie called "Suspect," I think it was showing how a candidate lost, who had won handily in a previous election, lost after a smear campaign in Washington State, which it had been brought out that his wife had once been a Communist Party member.
I didn't think the movie showed very much, but the meeting, the discussion following the movie, there were two people who gave little talks about the movie and the principles involved afterward, this—do you want to break?
Mr.Liebeler. Who went with you in the car to the meeting, just you and Mr. Oswald or was Mr. Krystinik with you?
Mr.Paine. No; Krystinik came in his own car, so just Lee and myself.
Mr.Liebeler. Go ahead with your story.
Mr.Paine. I thought the meeting was conducted in a manner that illustrated its own beliefs. One of the things said was that the Birchers must not be considered anti-Semitic, anti-Semites because they are also Birchers.
Lee at this point got up, speaking loud and clear and coherently, saying that, reporting that, he had been to this meeting of the right-wing group the night before or two nights before and he refuted this statement, saying names and saying how that people on the platform speaking for the Birch Society had said anti-Semitic things and also anti-Catholic statements or spoke against the Pope or something.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember what Oswald said?
Mr.Paine. No; I don't remember. He said something very similar to, "I disagree with what had just been said," and I do remember that it contained both some corroboration of his points of view. There had been some kind of an anti-Semitic statement and criticism of the Pope.
Mr.Liebeler. Oswald seemed to make a convincing argument and seemed to make sense?
Mr.Paine. That was good speaking. It was out of keeping with the mood of the meeting and nobody followed it up in a similar manner but I think it was accepted as—it made sense; yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did anybody else say anything in response to Oswald's remarks?
Mr.Paine. I think not.
Mr.Liebeler. What happened then later on in the meeting?
Mr.Paine. Later on in the meeting, when the meeting broke up, people clustered into discussion groups, and Frank, I told Frank, who was a colleague at work, Frank Krystinik, about Lee and Marina, and so of course he immediately came to defend free enterprise and what not in opposition to this fellow I told him about, and I left the discussion at that point, thinking I knew the kind of discussion it would be.
It was a discussion between three people, a more elderly man whom I probably thought was a member of the ACLU, and Frank and Lee.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you hear any part of the discussion?
Mr.Paine. I didn't hear any part of the discussion.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you subsequently discuss it with either Oswald or Krystinik?
Mr.Paine. And in the car going home, Lee asked me if I knew this man he had been talking to, this older man he had been talking to, and I think he said that the man seemed to be friendly to Cuba or rather he said, "Do you think that man is a Communist?" And I said, "No." And then he said something, "I think he is." Then I asked him why and I think he said something in regard to Cuba or sympathy with Cuba, and then I thought to myself, well, that is rather feeble evidence for proving a Communist.
But he seemed to have the attitude of, felt he wanted to meet that man again and was pleased he had met him. I thought to myself if that is the way he has to meet his Communists, he has not yet found the Communist group in Dallas.
Mr.Liebeler. Was there a Communist group in Dallas, to your knowledge?
Mr.Paine. Not to my knowledge.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Oswald ever speak of a Communist group in Dallas?
Mr.Paine. No; he did not. I had the impression, this I remember clearly that he had not found the group with similar feelings to his. I then asked Frank in regard to, I can't remember when I asked Frank but I asked Frank about the same conversation and whether he thought that this third man was a Communist. And he thought no, he thought the other man was a better—Frank almost got into a fight with Lee, and the other man was more receptive or didn't argue with him, or drew him out better, Frank used the word, I think.
Mr.Liebeler. Drew Oswald out better?
Mr.Paine. Drew Oswald out better. But he didn't gather the impression that he was favoring Castro or Cuba.
Mr.Liebeler. What else did you and Oswald say on the way home after the meeting?
Mr.Paine. So I was describing to him the purpose of the ACLU, and he said specifically, I can remember this, after I had described it and said that I was a member, that he couldn't join an organization like that, it wasn't political and he said something or responded in some manner, which indicated surprise that I could be concerned about joining an organization simply to defend, whose purpose it is, shall we say, to defend, free speech, free speech, per se, your freedom as well as mine.
He was aware of enjoying his freedom to speak but he didn't seem to be aware of the more general principle of freedom to speak for everyone which has value in itself. And I think it took him by surprise that a person could be concerned about a value like that rather than political objective of some sort, and this was, struck me as a new idea and it struck me that he must never have met people who paid more than lip service, he wasn't familiar with the ways of expressing this value.
Mr.Dulles. Did you say anything to him about the activities of the Civil Liberties Union in connection with the defense of people accused of crimes under certain conditions?
Mr.Paine. Yes; I am sure I told him that it came to the defense of all people who didn't seem to be receiving adequate help when it seemed to be an issue involving the Bill of Rights. I was then—that was a pang of sorrow that occurred after the assassination when I realized that he had then subsequently, a fortnight later, joined the ACLU, and still didn't quite seem to perceive its purpose, and then I realized—I had also perceived earlier that he was still a young fellow and I had been expecting rather a lot of him, when I first approached meeting him; this man had been to Russia and had been back and I had been—met some others who had been around the world like that and they are powerful people.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Oswald impress you that way?
Mr.Paine. And he did not impress me that way; no.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Oswald respond to your, or did you request Oswald or did you suggest to him that he join the ACLU?
Mr.Paine. No; I don't think I was eager to have him join until he knew what was what about it.
Mr.Liebeler. During the time after the ACLU meeting did Oswald say anything about his discussion with Mr. Krystinik?
Mr.Paine. No; I don't believe so.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you subsequently discuss that with Mr. Krystinik?
Mr.Paine. Yes; I did.
Mr.Liebeler. What did you say and what did he say?
Mr.Paine. He told me how he had argued, that he had pointed out that he had employed a few people himself, he works at Bell but on the side, at night he had done a little extra business and had employed other people, and had to receive from them more than he paid them, that he received from their labor, for their product, more than he paid them but that he created work and jobs, and he was fully—and he was ready to defend his way of that activity and was presenting that against Lee's criticism and apparently encountered the same kind of nonsequitur response or no response from him or Lee's response didn't—Lee presented his opposing view against it without any issue.
Mr.Liebeler. You mentioned that Krystinik and Oswald had almost gotten into a fight, did Krystinik tell you that?
Mr.Paine. I think it was Frank who told me that.
Mr.Liebeler. Can you tell us more about that?
Mr.Paine. I am sure Frank would not haul off and slug him, but just Frank said he got pretty mad at this. I think Frank was using that expression to me only, you know, saying how irked he was at Lee.
Mr.Liebeler. He didn't indicate that Oswald had threatened any physical violence toward him in connection with the argument, did he?
Mr.Paine. Oh, no; I think Lee knows how to keep his temper, knows how to control himself.
SenatorCooper. Might I ask a question at this time?Earlier you talked about your, I think your, first meeting with Oswald and your conversation with him?
Mr.Paine. Yes.
SenatorCooper. You said, you talked about, the fact that subsequently your wife was bothered by his attitude?
Mr.Paine. She was botheredby——
SenatorCooper. I am not going into that.
Now, you have talked about this conversation with Mr. Krystinik?
Mr.Paine. Krystinik.
SenatorCooper. In which they reached some point in which further discussion was not, if not impossible, was at least difficult between them?
From these experiences you had was there a situation, that after some arguments or discussion of economic or political issues, he would reach a point in which he relied upon certain fixed positions that he held about which he would not admit of any further discussion or argument?
Mr.Paine. That is correct. He would just present his dogmatic view and then one was at loss to find any way to get off that impasse.
SenatorCooper. When he was questioned about that view or when an attempt was made to argue that view with him, would he then become angry or disturbed in any way?
Mr.Paine. The time that I reported I was angry and I noticed he was holding his temper pretty well and I wasn't going to let him hold his temper better than mine.
SenatorCooper. Did you seeindication——
Mr.Paine. I saw he was angry, his hands trembled a little bit.
SenatorCooper. All right.
Mr.Paine. But he was dogged, I think he was practiced or skilled or took pride in this was a kind of struggle or fight that he would do this, and he would do it for a long time.
Mr.Liebeler. Clench his fists and put them together?
Mr.Paine. No; it was expressing this as a mood.
Mr.Liebeler. He would hold himself back?
Mr.Paine. He would oppose himself to you steadily, and it seemed to me he liked to put himself in a position of belligerence or opposition, and he would just hold his ground or something, was accustomed to doing that and expected to stick it out. It reminded me a little bit of Lawrence of Arabia when Lawrence held the match that burned down to his finger and the fellows asked him what is the trick? He said no trick you just learn how to stand the pain.
SenatorCooper. I have to go and I would like to ask a few questions.
I ask these questions to get a certain background of his views which you have said he finally came to some fixed position which he would hold and would not move and there was no brooking of real argument on that position.
You said earlier in response to a question by counsel that he did not believe there was any possibility of any evolutionary progress in this country, at least upon this issue of economic change.
Mr.Paine. This he never said that specifically. But I would ask him what policy should we take or I was trying to find if he didn't have some avenue of following a policy in this country.
SenatorCooper. Did you direct questions to him which showed some evolution in our own economic ideas and theories which he either refused toaccept——
Mr.Paine. Yes; I did. I mean I tried to show him how labor and management, first labor had a right, I was criticizing labor for the rigid position it is getting us intonow——
SenatorCooper. He would not accept that idea of evolution?
Mr.Paine. I think he did not accept it; yes.
He didn't have patience with it.
SenatorCooper. Is that also a tenet of the Communist dogma, do you know?
Mr.Paine. I don't believe, I don't know whether you can say there is a single Communist dogma of that sort. I suppose there are some groups that feel that way and others don't.
SenatorCooper. Did he indicate any other way in which he thought that economic change might come about in the United States?
Mr.Paine. He did not indicate or reveal to me how he thought it would come about and I on several occasions felt by his, perceived from his attitude or felt impelled by his attitude to say that the values that I held dear were diminished in a situation of violence, to which he remained silent and I took it as disagreement. But I don't remember if he had said that.
SenatorCooper. He remained silent when you spoke about that?
Mr.Paine. When I said I was opposed to violence or said, why, when I said that he remained silent and I tookit——
SenatorCooper. You took it that he disagreed in any way by your statement?
Mr.Paine. Well, just by the way he would sort of withdraw.
SenatorCooper. He did not agree with your position?
Mr.Paine. He did not agree; no.
SenatorCooper. That violence was unacceptable as a means of change?
Mr.Paine. That is right, and I don't think he perceived also, was a war of the kind of values that I am—tolerance, for instance seems to me disappears when strainedsituations——
SenatorCooper. Did you discuss at least the kind of economic changes that had occurred in Russia by means of violence?
Mr.Paine. No; I was trying to find out whether he thought it was going to come by revolution or not and he never did say, I never got an answer as to how he thought this change was going to come. He did not reveal constructive, or from my point of view, constructive effort to make.
SenatorCooper. Did he ever discuss the revolution in Russia where by means of violence the change had come about?
Mr.Paine. He did not. That would have been the kind of argument I would have accepted, a normal kind that you would have accepted it as evidence here is the normal way to produce it, but he never said that.
SenatorCooper. Did he ever say any way in which he was expecting Russia or any other country to indicate that he felt the use of violence had produced good?
Mr.Paine. No. As I say he did not—I would have accepted that argument as a debating argument but he didn't bring it up.
SenatorCooper. That is all.
Mr.Dulles. Did he say or did you get the impression that he felt that violence was the only way to improve things, let's say, in the United States?
Mr.Paine. I felt he was so disgusted with the whole system that he didn't see a way that was worthwhile fussing around trying to modify the situation.
Mr.Dulles. Other than violence or he didn't go that far?
Mr.Paine. He didn't mention advocating violence or didn't say anything in regard to violence but he did seem to me he didn't see dismissed as trivial, no difference between the parties so why join one party or another. They were all the same.
Churches—there is no avenue out that way. Education—there is nothing there. So that he never revealed to me any constructive way that wasn't violent.
Mr.Dulles. Did he think that communism was different from capitalism in this respect?
(Short recess.)
TheChairman. All right, gentlemen, the Commission will be in order.
Mr.Dulles. What I was getting at with my question was as to whether he thought that probably violence was necessary with respect to both systems to achieve the millennium that he sought or did he think it was just necessary with regard to the American system.
Mr.Paine. He didn't reveal to me to my satisfaction what criticism he found of the Soviet Union. He had indicated he didn't like it. But I wasn't aware that he was proposing to change that system also in some way. Neither did he ever speak, he never spoke to me, in a way that I could see a paradise, see his paradise. He spoke only, he was opposed to exploitation of man by man. That was his motivating power.
(At this point Senator Cooper left the hearing room.)
Mr.Liebeler. Did Oswald indicate to you in any way that he had beenpresent at the right-wing rally that was held in Dallas the night before Stevenson appeared in Dallas?
Mr.Paine. He indicated that at the ACLU meeting.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he say he had met anybody there?
Mr.Paine. Not that I recall, no.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he mention speaking to anyone at that meeting?
Mr.Paine. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you whether or not he was at the Stevenson meeting itself?
Mr.Paine. I guess I didn't ask him that. I remember asking myself subsequently what was the answer to that question and I couldn't answer it then and I can't answer it now.
Mr.Liebeler. You have no recollection of his mentioning it at all?
Mr.Paine. No, I don't remember what—I think I assumed that he hadbut——
Mr.Liebeler. You assumed that he had been at the Stevenson affair?
Mr.Paine. I think I assumed that.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you have any basis for that assumption?
Mr.Paine. There had been some discussion in the ACLU, some other people had gotten up and had spoken of that awful last night, I guess, this was the previous night, that awful time and I think he seemed to nod his assent. That wasmy——
Mr.Liebeler. You inferred from that that he had possibly been present at the Stevenson meeting?
Mr.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. There was no other basis for your assumption in that regard?
Mr.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Liebeler. On the weekend of November 8, 9, and 10, do you recall when you came to your house in Irving?
Mr.Paine. Well, I would come out regularly on Friday after cashing my check at the bank.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember coming on Friday evening on the 8th of November?
Mr.Paine. I don't remember any break in that habit.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you recall whether or not Oswald was present at your home on the Friday evening November 8, 1963?
Mr.Paine. No; I don't specifically remember that.
Mr.Liebeler. You don't remember one way or the other?
Mr.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Liebeler. Were you at the house on Saturday? November 9th?
Mr.Paine. I was at the house probably on Saturday and certainly on Sunday. I think that weekend I remember stepping over him as he sat in front of the TV, stepping past, one of these things laying on the floor and thinking to myself for a person who has a business to do he certainly can waste the time. By business I mean some kind of activity and keeping track of right-wing causes and left-wing causes or something. I supposed that he spent his time as I would be inclined to spend more of my time if I had it, trying to sense the pulse of various groups in the Dallas area.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know what Oswald did on Saturday morning, November 9, 1963?
Mr.Paine. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you know that he was taken by your wife to apply for a driver's license and take a driver's license test on that morning?
Mr.Paine. She told me sometime subsequently that she had taken him for—wait. I remember the incident that he had arrived on a Saturday morning at the drivers' license bureau, stood in line for a long time but they cut off the line at 12 o'clock and he did not stay there long enough for him to get his driver's license student permit.
Mr.Liebeler. Was this at this time or would that have been another time. Let me help you.
Mr.Paine. I don't remember that.
Mr.Liebeler. Would it help to refresh your recollection if I suggested that November 9th was a local election day in Dallas, I believe?
Mr.Paine. I think that is an election that I have forgotten.
Mr.Liebeler. You have no knowledge of Oswald's activities on that day, no direct personal knowledge?
Mr.Paine. It doesn't, it didn't cue me in, so Idon't——
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever see Oswald drive a car?
Mr.Paine. No; I did not.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever discuss with him driving an automobile or obtaining a driver's license?
Mr.Paine. I probably said it would be well to get a driver's license. It would be well—I probably said, "You probably need a car to get around here." In other words, effectively; no.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he ever indicate to you that he planned to purchase an automobile?
Mr.Paine. I bought this second-hand car for $200.
Mr.Liebeler. What kind of a car is that?
Mr.Paine. That is a 1956 Oldsmobile.
Mr.Liebeler. When did you buy it?
Mr.Paine. I bought it while they were there, while Marina was staying with us, which was sometime in November. Either October or November, probably the early part of November. They went out to admire the car. $200, I suppose, didn't seem out of their reach then.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he indicate to you that he wasthinking——
Mr.Paine. Therefore, I think Ruth, they went out to admire the car and, of course, I was thinking that it, this might make it appear to them that the car was within reach, and driving was something to be sought.
Mr.Liebeler. In addition to the Oldsmobile that you mentioned, you personally own a Citroen automobile and your wife owns a station wagon, is that correct?
Mr.Paine. That is correct.
Mr.Liebeler. You never saw Oswald drive any of those cars at any time?
Mr.Paine. That is correct. I had keys to both of my cars so he could not have driven themwithout——
Mr.Liebeler. Without your knowledge?
Mr.Paine. Or else somehow getting another. He would have to—you can, I have driven my car when I have broken the key.
Mr.Liebeler. But you never saw him drive it?
Mr.Paine. I never saw him drive it.
Mr.Liebeler. Did your wife ever tell you that she had seen Oswald driving a car or she was trying to teach him how to drive a car?
Mr.Paine. Yes; she did.
Mr.Liebeler. Did she indicate what proficiency he had at operating an automobile?
Mr.Paine. She thought he was, she observed how much one has to learn in order to drive a car. He had a difficulty in some manner, perhaps it was in judging when to turn the wheel when parking. And I think she said he over controlled it, turned too far.
Mr.Liebeler. Looking back now on all your conversations with Oswald, after his return from New Orleans, did you have any discussions with him other than the ones you have already mentioned in your previous testimony?
Mr.Dulles. Could I ask a question before you answer this question. About the car, did you get any idea as to why he didn't want to drive a car or to have a car, did he think this would make him a capitalist or anything of that kind? Did anything come up in the conversations with regard to his not having a car or not driving a car?
Mr.Paine. No. I gathered that was slightly embarrassing not to be able to drive a car.
Mr.Dulles. All right. Thank you.
Mr.Liebeler. Can you recall any conversations that you had with Oswaldthat you think would be helpful for us to know other than the ones you have already mentioned?
Mr.Paine. I don't recall one now.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he ever indicate to you any specific hostility toward President Kennedy?
Mr.Paine. I think at this ACLU meeting he mentioned this specifically that he thought Kennedy had done a good job in civil rights. That was it—generally my impression was that he liked—he didn't like anybody, but he disliked Kennedy least as you might go right from Kennedy.
Mr.Liebeler. To the best of your recollection, was that the only time he mentioned President Kennedy specifically?
Mr.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he ever mention Governor Connally?
Mr.Paine. Not to my knowledge.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he ever indicate any hostility toward the United States other than the hostility that you have previously testified to after his return from the Soviet Union and his general dislikes of the American system?
Mr.Paine. That is right. Just his general dislike.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he ever indicate to you a desire to return to the Soviet Union?
Mr.Paine. No; I think when I learned, I don't know when it was that he had planned to go back there that it was a surprise to me.
Mr.Liebeler. When did you learn that he planned to go back there?
Mr.Paine. That was probably subsequent; yes, that was certainly subsequent to November 22.
Mr.Dulles. Or to go to Cuba?
Mr.Paine. Or to go to Cuba, yes.
Mr.Liebeler. When that wasspoken——
Mr.Paine. I remember now, first it was mentioned could he be connected with a Communist plot and there I thought of Russian Communists and that didn't seem to ring a bell.
Mr.Liebeler. When was that mentioned?
Mr.Paine. This was after the assassination, a day or two later. Then when the Fair Play for Cuba Committee was mentioned, that was the first I had heard of it except for his mentioning Cuba to this man at the ACLU meeting referring to it in the car to me.
Mr.Liebeler. He never told you that he had been active in the Fair Play for Cuba Committee?
Mr.Paine. That is correct, that was the only recollection I could remember his ever having mentioned Cuba.
Mr.Liebeler. Now yesterday, we asked you about an incident or spoke to you about an incident that happened in September of 1963 when you went into your garage to use some tools, your garage in Irving, Tex. Would you tell us about that?
Mr.Paine. I don't remember whether the date was September. I remember that was the date they came back from New Orleans and I do remember that my wife asked me to unpack some of their heavy things from their car. I only recall unpacking duffelbags but any other package, that was the heaviest thing there and they were easy also.
Mr.Liebeler. You must have moved the duffelbags from the station wagon into the garage?
Mr.Paine. That is right. I unpacked whatever was remaining in the station wagon to the garage.
So sometime later, I do remember moving about this package which, let's say, was a rifle, anyway it was a package wrapped in a blanket. The garage was kind of crowded and I did have my tools in there and I had to move this package several times in order to make space to work, and the final time I put it on the floor underneath the saw where the handsaw would be casting dust on it and I was a little embarrassed to be putting his goods on the floor, but I didn't suppose, the first time I picked it up I thought it was camping equipment. I said to myself they don't make camping equipment of iron pipes any more.
Mr.Liebeler. Why did you say that to yourself when you picked up the package?
Mr.Paine. I had, my experience had been, my earliest camping equipment had been a tent of iron pipes. This somehow reminded me of that. I felt a pipe with my right hand and it was iron, that is to say it was not aluminum.
Mr.Liebeler. How did you make that distinction?
Mr.Paine. By the weight of it, and by the, I suppose the moment of inertia, you could have an aluminum tube with a total weight massed in the center somehow but that would not have had the inertia this way.
Mr.Dulles. You were just feeling this through the blanket though?
Mr.Paine. I was also aware as I was moving his goods around, of his rights to privacy. So I did not feel—I had to move this object, I wasn't thinking very much about it but it happens that I did think a little bit about it or before I get on to the working with my tools I thought, an image came to mind.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you think there was more than one tent pole in the package or just one tent pole?
Mr.Paine. As I say, I moved it several times, and I think I thought progressively each time. I moved it twice. It had three occasions. And the first one was an iron, thought of an iron pipe and then I have drawn, I drew yesterday, a picture of the thing I had in mind. Then in order to fill out the package I had to add another object to it and there I added again I was thinking of camping equipment, and I added a folding shovel such as I had seen in the Army, a little spade where the blade folds back over the handle. This has the trouble that this blade was too symmetrical I disposed to the handle and to fit the package the blade had to be off center, eccentric to the handle. Also, I had my vision of the pipe. It had an iron pipe about 30 inches long with a short section of pipe going off 45 degrees. No words here, it just happened that I did have this image in my mind of trying to fill up that package in the back burner of my mind.
Mr.Liebeler. The witness yesterday did draw a picture of what he visualized as being in the blanket, and I will offer it in evidence later on in the hearing.
How long was this package in your estimation?
Mr.Paine. Well, yesterday we measured the distance that I indicated with my hand, I think it came to 37 inches.
Mr.Liebeler. Approximately how thick would you say it was?
Mr.Paine. I picked it up each time and I put it in a position and then I would recover it from that position, so each time I moved it with the same position with my hands in the same position. My right hand, the thumb and forefinger could go around the pipe, and my left hand grabbed something which was an inch and a half inside the blanket or something thick.
Mr.Liebeler. Did it occur to you at that time that there was a rifle in the package?
Mr.Paine. That did not occur to me.
Mr.Liebeler. You never at any time looked inside the package?
Mr.Paine. That is correct. I could easily have felt the package but I was aware that of respecting his privacy of his possessions.
Mr.Liebeler. Were you subsequently advised of the probability or the possibility that there had been a rifle wrapped in that package?
Mr.Paine. When I arrived on Friday afternoon we went into the garage, I think Ruth, Marina and the policeman, and I am not sure it was the first time, but there we saw this blanket was on the floor below thebandsaw——
(At this point Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)
Mr.Paine. And a rifle was mentioned and then it rang a bell, the rifle answered, fitted the package that I had been trying to fit these unsuccessfully. It had never resolved itself, this shovel and pipe didn't fit in there.
Mr.Liebeler. And it seemed to you likely that there had in fact been a rifle in the package?
Mr.Paine. That answered it.
Mr.Liebeler. Can you tell us when the last time was that you saw that package in the garage prior to the assassination?
Mr.Paine. No; I am afraid I can't.
Mr.Dulles. Do we have the date of the first time in the record?
Mr.Liebeler. Yes; I think the witness testified it was either late September or early October of 1963.
I show you a blanket which has been marked as Commission Exhibit 140 and ask you if that is the blanket you saw in the garage?
Mr.Paine. This looks a little cleaner, of course. I was there in the night, and I also put the thing on the floor thinking it was rustic equipment and that sawdust wouldn't hurt it.
I also was concerned with moisture. This is very close to what I remember. Yesterday in my testimony I had a desire to add blue to the colors of brown and green. Last night I remembered that Thanksgiving weekend I had bought another rustic blanket of a similar nature which had blue in it, which is why I tried to get blue into the blanket.
Mr.Liebeler. Are you able to say at this time positively that this was the blanket that you saw in your garage and that you moved on various occasions in October and possibly November of 1963?
Mr.Paine. I didn't notice the particular design so I can't—it is a very good representative of what I remember.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember the texture of the blanket?
Mr.Paine. The texture. I felt it, of course, these several times and the texture is the same.
Mr.Liebeler. Was the package wrapped securely when it was in your garage?
Mr.Paine. I had the impression—yes, it was. The whole package was stiff. There was no shaking of the parts, and I had the impression it was wrapped with about two strings.
Mr.Liebeler. I now show you Commission Exhibit 139, which is a rifle that was found in the Texas School Book Depository Building, and ask you if you at any time ever saw this rifle prior to November 22, 1963?
Mr.Paine. I did not.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you seen it since that time and prior to yesterday?
Mr.Paine. I saw a rifle being shown to Marina in an adjoining cubicle with a glass wall between us.
Mr.Liebeler. When was that?
Mr.Paine. That was the night of the 22d.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you ever seen this leather strap that is attached to the rifle.
Mr.Paine. I have not seen that strap.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you ever seen a strap like this strap?
Mr.Paine. Or anything like it.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you any idea where this strap could have come from?
Mr.Paine. I don't.
Mr.Dulles. May I ask in that connection, was this just loosely wound up in that blanket or was there some string around itor——
Mr.Paine. I had the impression there were about two strings on the thing. It wouldn't—also, I didn't think you could look into the package readily.
Mr.Dulles. You would have to take something off, some string or something in order to get into the package?
Mr.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. I now show you Commission Exhibit 364 which is a replica of a sack which was prepared by authorities in Dallas, and I also show you another sack which is Commission Exhibit 142, and ask you if you have ever seen in or around your garage in Irving, Tex., any sacks similar to those?
Mr.Paine. No; I haven't.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you seen any paper in your garage in Irving prior to November 22, 1963, or at any other place, at your home in Irving, Tex., that is similar to the paper of which those sacks are made?
Mr.Paine. No, I haven't; we have some rugs, most of them are wrapped in polyethylene. I couldn't be sure that one of the smaller ones wasn't wrapped in paper. To my knowledge, we had no free kraft paper of that size.
Mr.Liebeler. Will you examine the tape on the sacks and tell me whether you have any tape similar to that or whether you have seen any tape similar to that in your garage before November 22, 1963?
Mr.Paine. We have some tape in a drawer of my desk at the house, my recollection is that the tape is a 2-inch tape, gum tape.
Mr.Liebeler. And the tape on the sack appears to be three?
Mr.Paine. This is 3-inch.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever observe in your garage any scraps of paper or scraps of tape similar to the materials used to construct those sacks?
Mr.Paine. No, I did not.
Mr.Liebeler. Either before November 22, 1963, or afterwards?
Mr.Paine. That is correct.
Mr.Liebeler. When you moved the sacks, the blanket, the package that was wrapped in the blanket in your garage, were you able to determine whether or not the object inside the sack was also wrapped in paper?
Mr.Paine. I would have said that it was not. When we practiced wrapping that rifle yesterday I would have guessed that any paper around the barrel in there, which I could feel with some clarity, would have crinkled.
Mr.Liebeler. And to your recollection there was no crinkling in the package wrapped with the blanket?
Mr.Paine. Yes. It was a very quiet package.
Mr.Liebeler. Yesterday we did try to and did wrap the rifle previously referred to in our testimony in the blanket which you have just examined. Would you tell the Commission about that?
Mr.Paine. I tried wrapping it to the shape and size and bulk that I remembered the package. I had a little difficulty, it got quite close to the right shape by wrapping it at an angle. The rifle was laid in the blanket somewhat on a bias to the rectangle blanket form. Then there was a small end of the barrel, I didn't discover how you could fold that over to tie it with string without making it bulkier than I remember. But the package came quite close to what I remembered.
Mr.Liebeler. Now on the basis of wrapping that rifle in the blanket, would you say that it was probable, that the package that was in your garage was in fact that rifle wrapped in that blanket?
Mr.Paine. Yes, I think it was or a rifle of that size.
Mr.Liebeler. You said just a moment ago that you saw the rifle we have had here this morning or a similar rifle shown to Marina Oswald sometime shortly after the assassination. Would you tell us the circumstances surrounding that event?
Mr.Paine. We went to the police station that evening, and probably about 9 o'clock, I saw the rifle being shown to Marina.
Mr.Liebeler. This was at the Dallas police station?
Mr.Paine. Dallas police station. Ruth was present, and Mamantov was present.
RepresentativeFord. Who was the last one?
Mr.Paine. Ilya Mamantov, I think Ilya is the first name, but Mr. Mamantov. He teaches parttime, parttime teaching in Russian, was familiar to Ruth as the son-in-law of her tutor.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you hear any of the conversation that was going on in the room in which Marina was being shown this rifle?
Mr.Paine. No, no.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know whether or not your wife heard them?
Mr.Paine. My wife, of course, was right there. And heard the whole thing.
Mr.Liebeler. Did she subsequently tell you what occurred?
Mr.Paine. Yes, she did.
Mr.Liebeler. What did she tell you?
Mr.Paine. She told me that Marina wasn't able to identify that rifle as the one that Lee had. She knew that Lee had a rifle, and I think she knew it was wrapped in a package like this. I think Ruth reported that she had, Marina had, opened up a corner of the blanket and looked in and seen part of the butt, and hadn't liked the idea of rifles, the rifles made her a little uncomfortable and hadn't looked at it further.
Mr.Liebeler. This was at the time the rifle was presumably wrapped in the blanket in your garage, correct?
Mr.Paine. I assumed that. I didn't ask that question.
Mr.Liebeler. Did your wife tell you anything more about what happened at that time?
Mr.Paine. You will have to jog my memory if you have any specific questions. I don't recall.
Mr.Liebeler. That is the best of your recollection now that you have given us?