Mrs.Paine. During the entire time, is that your question?
Mr.Jenner. Yes. Let us end the day for you for this purpose at November 22, 1963?
Mrs.Paine. He was, I would say, actively disinterested in going down to Bourbon Street in the last weekend in September.
Mr.Jenner. But even prior to that time?
Mrs.Paine. It was the 21st.
Mr.Jenner. Had anything occurred by way of a remark at all that made an impression on you in the area of his being acquainted possibly with any nightclub people, any entertainers?
Mrs.Paine. There had been no hint of any sort that he was acquainted with nightclub people?
Mr.McCloy. Whether in Dallas, New Orleans or Irving?
Mrs.Paine. That is right. Of course, I had not talked to him a great deal up to the New Orleans trip. Then after that time there was also no hint or mention of any nightclub people. After that time in New Orleans he did refuse table wine at my home, so I got the impression of him as a person who didn't like to drink.
Mr.Jenner. During all your acquaintance with Lee Harvey Oswald, did you ever see him take a drink of spirits, intoxicating spirits?
Mrs.Paine. It is possible he had beer at the initial party on the 22d of February, that is as far as I can remember.
Mr.Jenner. What impression did you have of him as a man of temperance?
Mrs.Paine. He teased Marina about liking wine as if it displeased him mildly.
Mr.Jenner. Excuse me, Mrs. Paine. You are talking in terms of conclusions which is all right with me if you will give me the specifics also. Could you give us an example or an occasion of what you have in mind?
Mrs.Paine. Well, at the same occasion when he refused the wine, she had some.
Mr.Jenner. I see. Did he say something that led you to say he was teasing her?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Would you describe what that was?
Mrs.Paine. Indicating a mild disapproval.
Mr.Jenner. Would you please relate to the Commission your impression of Marina Oswald as a temperate person?
Mrs.Paine. She did not like liquors.
Mr.Jenner. What we would call hard liquor?
Mrs.Paine. Strong spirits.
Mr.Jenner. Strong spirits.
Mrs.Paine. But she did drink beer at my home, and did occasionally have wine.
Mr.Jenner. She occasionally had a bit of wine and she occasionally had some beer?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Is that the extent of, as far as your personal knowledge is concerned, her indulgence in intoxicating spirits?
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. Does that likewise describe your indulgence or doyou——
Mrs.Paine. I would also drink a cocktail on occasion.
Mr.Jenner. But very limited and just an occasional drink?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Is that likewise true of your husband, Michael?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
RepresentativeFord. Did Marina ever drink to excess?
Mrs.Paine. Certainly not that I ever heard about or saw.
Mr.Jenner. Not that you ever heard about or that you saw?
Mrs.Paine. Or saw.
Mr.Jenner. From your testimony that is certainly true with Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs.Paine. It is certainly true of him also.
Mr.Jenner. As far as you are concerned?
Mrs.Paine. As far as I am concerned.
Mr.Jenner. Now, I think you testified yesterday that Marina would assist you in your becoming more proficient in the Russian language by returningletters that you had written her, upon which she would place her comments of instruction or criticism or suggestion?
Mrs.Paine. Before she left for New Orleans in May, she offered to correct and send back any letters I wrote to her. In the correspondence which included some four letters with her altogether, there was only one of mine that was actually corrected and sent back and you have that.
Mr.Jenner. I have marked a three-page document as Commission Exhibit 409, and the envelope as Commission Exhibit 409A, the envelope being postmarked at New Orleans on June 6, 1963, and being addressed to Mrs. Ruth Paine.
Mrs.Paine. Do you want to make a separate designation for my return letter? You are looking at the letter which accompanied her letter.
Mr.Jenner. That document I will mark as Commission Exhibit——may I have permission, Mr. Chairman, to mark this document in my own hand because the sticker, I am afraid, will obliterate some of the letter.
Mr.McCloy. You may.
Mr.Jenner. I will mark this as 409B.
Now, Mrs. Paine, would you be good enough to identify 409, 409A, and 409B, the sequence in which they passed back and forth between you and Mrs. Oswald?
Mrs.Paine. It includes, No. 409 is my letter to her dated the 1st of June, whichshe——
Mr.Jenner. 1963?
Mrs.Paine. 1963.
Mr.Jenner. Is that document, or do you recognize the handwriting on that document?
Mrs.Paine. That is my hand.
Mr.Jenner. Would you turn to the reverse side of the second page, third page. I see there is something on that in red crayon.
Mrs.Paine. All the red marks and the little bit in ballpoint pen are made by her.
Mr.Jenner. That is what I was seeking to bring out.
Mrs.Paine. At the end it includes a note of comments.
Mr.Jenner. Now, Mrs. Paine, the portion of the letter in blue ink in longhand is in whose handwriting?
Mrs.Paine. In my handwriting.
Mr.Jenner. And the portion of the letter in red crayon on the reverse side of the third page is in whose handwriting?
Mrs.Paine. Is in her handwriting.
Mr.Jenner. On the first page is there any of her handwriting?
Mrs.Paine. On the first page in blue ink, ballpoint pen there is some handwriting which is hers at the top.
Mr.Jenner. Those are notations in between the lines or in the margin?
Mrs.Paine. Above my writing. Yes; sir.
Mr.Jenner. They are comments of hers on your letter?
Mrs.Paine. And my spelling.
Mr.Jenner. Of your spelling?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Do any of those markings appear other than on the face of the first sheet?
Mrs.Paine. In blue ink you are asking?
Mr.Jenner. Yes, I am.
Mrs.Paine. No. The rest is all in red.
Mr.Jenner. That then was a letter that you had sent to her?
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. Was it returned to you?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did some document which you now have before you accompany the letter on its return?
Mrs.Paine. Her letter dated June 5th.
Mr.Jenner. Which has been marked Commission Exhibit 409B?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And you do recognize that handwriting as having been hers?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; I do.
Mr.Jenner. Of the two documents you have now identified, 409 and 409B, were they enclosed in an envelope?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; they were.
Mr.Jenner. Is that envelope before you?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. It is marked Commission Exhibit 409A?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Are all those conditions of documents in the condition which they were in when you received them?
Mrs.Paine. I have again added in my hand on her letter.
Mr.Jenner. That is 409B?
Mrs.Paine. Translations of certain of the words.
Mr.Jenner. Would you please, for the purpose of the record, identify what your handwriting is, on the letter 409B.
Mrs.Paine. It is above her words. Most of it is in English.
Mr.Jenner. That is in your hand?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Other than that, are the documents in the condition they were when you received them?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. There is one interesting thing to me, Mrs. Paine, to which I would like to draw the attention of the Commission. And I direct your attention in this respect to Exhibits 404, 404A, 408, 408A, 409, and 409A. Each has an envelope addressed to you, and each is addressed written in English.
Is the handwriting on each of those envelopes Marina Oswald's?
Mrs.Paine. It is.
Mr.Jenner. She was then able to write some English, is that so?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Would youplease——
Mrs.Paine. She learned her own address.
Mr.Jenner. Did her command of the use of the English language, at least from the writing standpoint, extend beyond those examples?
Mrs.Paine. Not to my knowledge. I knew that she looked at signs and had learned the sound value of the English letters. That she looked at the Thursday supplement to the newspaper for the ads on vegetables and things with pictures on a can or something that showed the English of what it was, to try to determine what this word was and pronounce it.
Mr.Jenner. So she did acquire some command of English with respect to reading newspapers?
Mrs.Paine. It was not my impression that she could read a newspaper. She could pick out the sound values. It was not until October that I read with her a portion from Time magazine regarding Madam Nhu, whenever that was news, she asked me to read this to her and translate it. I read it.
Mr.Jenner. Did you read it in English first?
Mrs.Paine. I read it in English, giving translation of some of the words.
Mr.Jenner. As you went along?
Mrs.Paine. As I went along.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mrs.Paine. But many of the words, English words, were words she understood, because they were either similar to the Russian or because she had learned them.
I was surprised at how much she understood when I pronounced it and read it to her.
RepresentativeFord. In English?
Mrs.Paine. In English. Because she was very hesitant to speak English with me, fearful that her pronunciation would not be correct. She would ask me several times, "How do I pronounce this," although she didn't think she was doing very well with the pronunciation, although she did well.
Mr.Jenner. She was sensitive in this respect, Mrs. Paine, she was hesitant to use the English language in the presence, say, of Americans or even the Russian emigré groups?
Mrs.Paine. I think most people are sensitive about using a language when the person they are with can understand them in the language they use better. She also talked with my immediate neighbor for a short time, when only she and the neighbor were present. I went to see about a child.
Mr.Jenner. Could your neighbor understand Russian?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. But there was a measure of communication?
Mrs.Paine. There was some communication, not a great deal. My neighbor told me after she saw Marina on television in January, whatever it was, "that girl has learned a great deal of English." She was amazed at the change.
RepresentativeFord. The improvement from October to January?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Dulles. How would you appraise her general intelligence, her level of intelligence for a girl of that age in the early twenties?
Mrs.Paine. I think she certainly had above average intelligence.
RepresentativeFord. What prompted her, if you know, to ask about Madam Nhu?
Mrs.Paine. She was interested in the family. She was worried about what Madam Nhu would do. Madam Nhu and the children still in her country. She wanted to know were these children going to come out either in Paris or the United States. She was concerned, and her concern for world affairs seemed to go this way, of what is this mother and children going to do.
Mr.Jenner. Was she concerned about the conflict between the North Vietnamese and the South Vietnamese?
Mrs.Paine. No; this didn't interest her, it didn't appear to.
Mr.Jenner. It was the human side rather than the political side?
Mrs.Paine. Strictly that.
Mr.Jenner. Thank you; that is what I wanted to bring out. I offer in evidence, Mr. Chairman, as Exhibits with those numbers, the documents marked Commission Exhibits 409, 409-A, and 409-B.
Mr.McCloy. It may be admitted.
(The documents referred to previously, marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 409, 409-A, and 409-B, were received in evidence.)
(At this point, Representative Boggs entered the hearing room.)
Mr.Jenner. Now, Mrs. Paine, turning to this series of correspondence which has now been admitted in evidence, have you made an interpretation for the Commission of Exhibit 409-B?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; I have.
Mr.Jenner. Where does that appear on your summary you furnished to me last evening?
Mrs.Paine. That begins in the middle of page 6, marked second letter from New Orleans.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Your interpretation of the letter dealing with the night club visit of the Oswalds, you have interpreted that for the Commission, and that appears on page what of your summary?
Mrs.Paine. That appears on page 3 marked first letter from New Orleans.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Were you concerned about Mrs. Oswald, about Marina's condition and her receiving proper medical attention?
Mrs.Paine. I was very concerned about it.
Mr.Jenner. Did you write her at any time about it?
Mrs.Paine. I would like to refer you to my letter of June 1st which was returned in the document you just admitted in evidence.
Mr.Jenner. You did write her about it?
Mrs.Paine. I wrote particularly in that letter to Lee.
Mr.Jenner. You wrote both Lee and Marina?
Mrs.Paine. In this letter I addressed each, and a particular portion of that letter is in English.
Mr.Jenner. And that is Commission Exhibit No. 409?
Mrs.Paine. That was to Lee, that particular portion.
Mr.Jenner. You incorporated, did you not, in that letter, a direct communication to Lee Oswald?
Mrs.Paine. I say in Russian a few words to Lee now about hospital and money.
Mr.Jenner. But incorporated in your note in that letter to Lee Oswald you used the English rather than the Russian language, did you not?
Mrs.Paine. I wanted to speak of things I couldn't say in Russian. I didn't have the vocabulary to do it with any ease in Russian.
Mr.Jenner. I see.
Mrs.Paine. And further I particularly wanted to tell him I thought it important she get to a doctor and have prenatal care and felt he would be the one who actually got her there. It was his concern that would produce a visit to the doctor.
Mr.Jenner. I see. That explains that portion of the letter which is Commission Exhibit No. 409.
Mrs.Paine. 409.
Mr.Jenner. I won't go into the details, Mr. Chairman, because these are recommendations of Mrs. Paine for medical care of Marina Oswald.
Mr.McCloy. Do I understand you are going to read all of these into the record at the noon hour?
Mr.Jenner. At the noon hour I will read all of these into the record rather than do it now. Now you, last night, Mrs Paine, suggested to me you would like to make an explanation of this series of letters, and I direct your attention to page 7 of your notes.
Mrs.Paine. Well, the commentary on page 7 by meis——
Mr.Jenner. Refreshing your recollection from having read it, you would like to make a statement to the Commission and you may proceed to do so.
Mrs.Paine. It doesn't refresh me enough. I could say this. That when I received 409-B, her letter, I read it through. I glanced at 409, her corrected—my letter which she had corrected, and at the note at the back which began, "You write well" and assumed this to be commentary on my letter; it was not until I sat down nearly a month later to write a proper reply to her, I read this through more carefully and found in the middle of the paragraph discussing my writing a comment by her saying, "Very likely I will have to go back to Russia after all."
Mr.Jenner. For the purpose of the record there appears the red crayon to which I earlier drew your attention on the back of page 3.
Would you read that entire notation of hers so that the Commission may now know that to which you are now directing your attention?
Mrs.Paine. In the back of my letter she writes in red pencil, "You write well, when will I write that way in English. I think never. Very likely I will have to go back to Russia after all. A pity."
Mr.Dulles. What was the last?
Mrs.Paine. "A pity."
Mr.Jenner. I take it when you first read that notation on the back of the third page of the letter you had not noticed the sentence, "Very likely I will have to go to Russia after all. A pity."
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Would you proceed with your comment?
Mrs.Paine. This was early July when I read this letter more carefully and I was shocked that I hadn't noticed this. That my poor Russian made a scanning of the letter not adequate to picking that up, and I wrote her immediately apologizing for my bad understanding, and I don't have that letter, but I have three which followed it,and——
Mr.Jenner. Excuse me. Do you have a draft, have you produced for the Commission your immediate preceding draft of that letter?
Mrs.Paine. I have no rough draft of my first letter explaining my shock and my worry at this statement of hers.
Mr.Jenner. I see.
Mrs.Paine. But I have rough drafts of three letters I wrote subsequently.
Mr.Jenner. Have you ever seen at any time a copy or the original of the letter that you wrote, a draft of which you do not have?
Mrs.Paine. No; I haven't.
Mr.Jenner. Would you please relate to the Commission your present recollection of the substance and content of that letter?
Mrs.Paine. Much what I have said. That I apologized that my poor Russian didn't see this immediately and I inquired after her what she was doing, and asked to hear from her.
Mr.Jenner. You say, that sentence when you finally did read it rather shocked you. Would you rather—would you elaborate on that statement to the Commission? Why did that shock you?
Mrs.Paine. It seemed more final than anything else that had preceded. She had told me in March that he had asked her to go back, that she had written to the embassy but she didn't reply to the embassy when the embassy inquired why. It looked as though she was able to just say no by not doing anything about it. But this, on the other hand, looked as if she was resigned to the necessity to go back.
Mr.Jenner. Were you aware at this time, Mrs. Paine, that Lee had applied to the State Department for a passport and had obtained one?
Mrs.Paine. No; I was not aware of that.
Mr.Jenner. When did you first become aware of that, if you ever did?
Mrs.Paine. It was considerably after the assassination, and I read it in a paper. I still don't remember what time or day it was.
Mr.Jenner. Now, did you write Marina on or about the 11th of July?
Mrs.Paine. I have a rough draft of that date.
Mr.Jenner. I hand you a document of two pages which has been identified as Commission Exhibit No. 410.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 410 for identification.)
Would you please tell us what that document is?
Mrs.Paine. This is the rough draft, to which I just referred, written to Marina.
Mr.Jenner. And you thereupon prepared the final draft and sent it?
Mrs.Paine. That is correct.
Mr.Jenner. This represents, does it not, your best recollection of the contents of the letter, the letter in its final form as you transmitted it to Marina?
Mrs.Paine. I think this is probably a very accurate representation of the letter in its final form. It was the first time I put on paper an invitation to her to come and stay with me for anything more than a few weeks around the birth of the baby.
Mr.Jenner. Have you supplied the Commission with a translation of your letter?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; I have.
Mr.Jenner. And that appears at the bottom of page 7 of your notes which you have supplied to me?
Mrs.Paine. That is correct.
Mr.Jenner. I direct your attention, if I may, and the attention of the Commission as interpreted by Mrs. Paine, the first sentence reads, "Dear Marina, if Lee doesn't wish to live with you any more and prefers that you go to the Soviet Union, think about the possibility of living with me."
You just said—is that the portion of your letter which you say this is the first invitation you made to Marina to come to live with you generally?
Mrs.Paine. This was the first written invitation.
Mr.Jenner. I see.
Mrs.Paine. I had made an informal invitation face to face when she was staying the first week in May, but felt as I made it that she didn't take this seriously.
Mr.Jenner. Now, you go on in your letter and you make reference, for example, to—let's take the second paragraph of your letter appearing at the top of page 8 of your notes, "You know I have long received from my parents, I live dependent a long time. I would be happy to be an aunt to you and I can. We have sufficient money. Michael will be glad. This I know. He just gave me $500 for the vacation or something necessary. With this money it is possible to pay the doctor and hospital in October when the baby is born, believe God. All will be well for you and the children. I confess that I think that the opportunity for me to know you came from God. Perhaps it is not so but I think and believe so."
Had you discussed this matter with your husband?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; I had.
Mr.Jenner. And you were still living separate and apart at that time?
Mrs.Paine. Yes. But I felt so long as I was not yet earning, he would be the one, in fact, who was supporting all of us.
Mr.Jenner. I think the Commission might be interested in that. You were not taking this action, either in the earlier stage in the early spring or in the summer of inviting Marina to live with you without discussing that with your husband even though you and your husband at that time were separated?
Mrs.Paine. That is correct.
Mr.Jenner. Did you do anything, Mrs. Paine, in this connection with respect to keeping Lee Oswald informed of your invitations and your communications in this area with Marina?
Mrs.Paine. I wrote into the letter that I hoped—well you might just read the last paragraph.
Mr.Jenner. Would you mind reading it?
Mrs.Paine. I will read it, the last paragraph in the letter, and I might say that the entire letter I wrote with the possibility in mind that he should see this.
Mr.Jenner. Did you desire that he do see it?
Mrs.Paine. I wanted him to—her to feel free to show it to him. I didn't want her to come to my house if this offended or injured him, if this was in someway——
(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.)
Mr.Jenner. Divisive?
Mrs.Paine. If he did in fact want to keep his family together, I certainly wanted him to, but if the bulk of his feelings lay on the side of wanting to be away, separated from Marina, then I thought it was legitimate for him to have that alternative, although it was not legitimate for him to simply send her back if she didn't want to go.
Mr.Jenner. Send her back where?
Mrs.Paine. To the Soviet Union, if she didn't want to go. So in this light I will read the last paragraph of Commission Exhibit 410:
"I don't want to hurt Lee with this invitation to you. Only I think that it would be better that you and he do not live together if you do not receive happiness. I understand how Michael feels. He doesn't love me and wants a chance to look for another life and another wife. He must do this, it seems, and so it is better for us not to live together. I don't know how Lee feels. I would like to know. Surely things are hard for him now, too. I hope that he would be glad to see you with me where he can know that you and the children will receive everything that is necessary and he would not need to worry about it. Thus he could start life again."
Mr.Jenner. Mrs. Paine, having all this in mind and what you have testified to up to now, would you please tell the gentlemen of the Commission the factors and motivations you had in inviting Marina to come live with you; first to have her baby, next on a more extended scale, all of the factors that motivated you in your offer, in your own words?
Mrs.Paine. The first invitation, just to come for a few weeks at the time of the birth is a simpler question, I will answer that first.
I felt that she would need someone simply to take care of her older child for the time that she was in the hospital, and that things would be easier for her if she didn't have to immediately take up the full household chores upon returning from the hospital. This was a very simple offer.
Mr.Jenner. That was all that motivated you at that time?
Mrs.Paine. Now, in asking her to come and stay for a more extended period, I had many feelings. I was living alone with my children, at that time, had been since the previous fall, nearly a year, at the time this letter is written. I had no idea that my husband might move back to the house. I was tired of living alone and lonely, and here was a woman who was alone and in a sense also, if Lee, in fact didn't want to be with her, and further she was a person I liked. I had lived with her 2 weeks in late April and early May. I enjoyed her company.
Further, being able to talk Russian with her added a wider dimension tomy rather small and boring life as a young mother. I didn't want to go out and get a job because I wanted to be home with my children, but on the other hand, I saw a way to, and that is part of what studying Russian altogether is for me, a way to make my daily life more interesting. I also felt when I first heard in March that Lee was wanting to send Marina back, that is how it was presented to me, that it just seemed a shame that our country couldn't be a more hospitable thing for her if she wanted so much to stay, that I thought she should have that opportunity.
I was pleased that she liked America, and thought that she should have a chance to stay here and raise her children here as she wished.
I might say also if I had not been living alone I would not have undertaken such an invitation. My house is small and it wouldn't have gone with married life.
Mr.Jenner. I wanted to afford you that opportunity. Now, you have related all the factors that motivated you?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 410 the document which has been so identified.
Mr.McCloy. It may be admitted.
(The document referred to, previously marked as Commission Exhibit No. 410 for identification, was received in evidence.)
Mr.McCloy. We have been going for an hour and a half. If you would like to have a recess you may have it.
Mrs.Paine. I am all right.
Mr.McCloy. All right, we will go on then.
Mr.Jenner. You mentioned in the course of your explanation earlier a series of three letters. I hand you a draft of letter dated July 12, 1963, addressed to Dear Marina, consisting of two pages, which we will mark as Commission Exhibit No. 411. And another one-page letter which we will mark as Commission Exhibit No. 412.
In whose handwriting is each of those exhibits?
Mrs.Paine. Each of these are in my handwriting.
Mr.Jenner. And they are drafts, are they?
Mrs.Paine. They are.
Mr.Jenner. And you would then, after making those drafts put them in final form?
Mrs.Paine. That is correct.
Mr.Jenner. Did you transmit the final draft of letter to Marina Oswald?
Mrs.Paine. I mailed them to her address in New Orleans.
Mr.Jenner. Have you supplied me with your translation of both of those drafts?
Mrs.Paine. I have.
Mr.Jenner. Each draft is in your handwriting?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And the interpretations appearing at the bottom of page 8 and the bottom of page 9 are the material you supplied me and they consist of your interpretations of those letters or translations, rather?
Mrs.Paine. That is right. They are dated respectively July 12 and July 14.
Mr.Jenner. I hand you a picture copy rather than a photostatic copy of a two-page letter dated July 14, 1963, and a translation of that letter which we will mark as Commission Exhibits Nos. 413 and 414, respectively.
(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 413 and 414 for identification.)
Mr.Jenner. Directing your attention to Exhibit 413, would you tell us what that is?
Mrs.Paine. This appears to be a photograph of the letter I then wrote from my final draft and sent to Marina, dated the 14th of July.
Mr.Jenner. So that Exhibit No. 413 isthe——
Mrs.Paine. 413, the photograph.
Mr.Jenner. 413 is to the best of your recollection an actual picture of your final draft letter as transmitted to Marina?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Now directing your attention to page 10 of the material that you supplied me, and which you discussed with me last evening, you wished to make a statement to the Commission with respect to this letter, do you?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Would you please proceed to do so?
Mrs.Paine. I think it would be easier if I read what is here.
Mr.Jenner. Any way you want to handle it, Mrs. Paine.
Mrs.Paine. Marina stayed with me 2 weeks in the spring as you know, and I realized then what a proud and capable person she is. She was not accustomed to accept help from others, and I knew that her pride and independence would be a stumbling block to her accepting help even though she needed it.
I respected her for this and somehow I wanted to ease such acceptance for her, and to explain that the situation I proposed would be a situation of mutual help. I hoped—now I should say that in CommissionExhibit——
Mr.Jenner. They are to your right on the table.
Mrs.Paine. Yes; 411 and 412, I mentioned that if she were counted as a dependent on Michael's income tax his yearly payment to the government would be reduced by a certain amount, and that by that amount she—we could very nearly live—her expenses could very nearly come under this, so it would be more a case of breaking even than a case of her accepting so much as she might think from us. But I think that in fact this reference to the tax reduction did not encourage her, as I had hoped.
Mr.Jenner. It wasn't quite correct either, was it, Mrs. Paine?
(Laughter.)
Mrs.Paine. Did I get a chance to read the second letter as written at 2 a.m. and I was hopeful only morethan——
Mr.Jenner. Mrs. Paine, I think the members of the Commission and also you from our talk last night, are interested in your letters which you have now identified suggesting financial arrangements to Mrs. Oswald, since to one who might read them without knowing the background they might seem crass.
Mrs.Paine. I felt crass in Russian, particularly.
Mr.Jenner. I was not thinking in terms of your difficulty in communicating with her, but you had no selfish or ulterior financial motive, did you, in this connection?
Mrs.Paine. Did it appear that?
Mr.Jenner. It might.
Mrs.Paine. Even with such bad arithmetic.
Mr.Jenner. Your arithmetic was all right. Your interpretation of the law was not as good as it might be.
Mr.Dulles. Am I not correct, I understood you were trying to make her feel she was not going to be a burden to you?
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Dulles. And were using certain subterfuges to accomplish that; that is the impression I got from what you said.
Mrs.Paine. That is absolutely correct. That I hoped, and further I would say in the letters to her I made reference that this money not paid to the government would be therefore available for spending money for her. I had put myself in her position and thought wouldn't it be terrible to have to ask for a nickel for a package of Lifesavers every time you wanted it, and thought I wouldn't want to be in such a situation if she doesn't have her own, something she can count upon as her own money, it would be unbearable to her.
So I tried to cast about both for a way of making her feel that this would not be a burden to us, and a way of getting her petty cash in the pocket that she would not feel was a handout. So that it would be a legitimate possibility for her to consider.
I judge that my effort in this regard, besides the bad understanding of the tax law and the poor arithmetic, didn't help because of her following letter.
Mr.Jenner. That is what I was coming to. Before we get to that, Mrs. Paine, I direct your attention to Commission Exhibit No. 414.
Mrs.Paine. 414?
Mr.Jenner. That is a translation of your letter, Commission Exhibit No. 413. Have you read that translation?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Is there anything in the translation to which you might desire to take exception or at least make a comment?
(At this point Chief Justice Warren left the hearing room.)
Mrs.Paine. One minute. Yes, it accurately reflects some of my bad Russian.
Mr.Jenner. You take no exception to the translation?
Mrs.Paine. I think no.
Mr.Jenner. Mr. Chairman, if you please, I offer in evidence, Mr. Dulles, may I have thoseexhibits——
Mr.McCloy. They may be admitted.
Mr.Jenner. As Commission Exhibits 411, 412, 413 and 414, the documents that had been so marked?
Mr.McCloy. They will be admitted.
(The documents referred, previously marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 411, 412, 413, and 414, were received in evidence.)
Mr.Jenner. You did receive a response from Marina, did you not, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; I did.
Mr.Jenner. And is the response the document now handed to you marked Commission Exhibit No. 415?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; it is.
Mr.Jenner. And you supplied the Commission with your translation of that letter and thattranslation——
Mrs.Paine. 415 is that what you said?
Mr.Jenner. 415. It appears on pages 10, 11, and 12 of the material you supplied me.
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. You don't have an envelope but you have a letter.
Mrs.Paine. I don't have an envelope. I don't know what happened to it.
Mr.Jenner. Is the exhibit in Marina Oswald's handwriting?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; it is.
Mr.Jenner. Is there anything on the exhibit other than that in the handwriting of Marina Oswald?
Mrs.Paine. There are a few underlinings on the page marked four.
Mr.Jenner. Who placed them there?
Mrs.Paine. Which are my own.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Anything else?
Mrs.Paine. Except for the underlining "he does not know" at the very bottom.
Mr.Jenner. "He" refers to whom?
Mrs.Paine. Lee.
Mr.Jenner. You were about to state to the Commission Marina Oswald's reaction to your series of invitations. Is that correct?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Would you proceed then?
Mrs.Paine. As reflected in this letter. This was the third letter I received from her after a space of over a month, and I had been very concerned about her. I was much relieved to get it. She said she had been to the doctor and her condition was normal. She responded to this series of four letters of which we have three in rough draft, saying—shall I read in some of the things said?
Mr.Jenner. To the extent that you desire to do so. We will not read the whole letter, it is quite long; that which is pertinent to what you have in mind.
Mrs.Paine. Well, that for a considerable period Lee has been good to her, she writes. He talks a lot about the coming baby.
Mr.Jenner. Perhaps you might pick out—there are only about four sentences.
Mrs.Paine. "He has become more attentive and we hardly quarrel".
Mr.Jenner. This indicates a change somewhat in relationship and would you please read that portion of the letter?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Dulles. Could we have the date of this letter once again?
Mrs.Paine. The date of the letter. We have no date on the letter. It was written somewhere between July 18 and July 21, which is the date of my reply.
Mr.Jenner. That is how you identify it?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
RepresentativeFord. This is 1963?
Mrs.Paine. Right. Again, "He has become much more attentive and we hardly quarrel. True I have to give in a great deal. It could not be otherwise. But if one wants peace then it is necessary to give in. We went to the doctor, my condition is normal."
And she thanks me for the invitation and thanks Michael also and says:
"I would try to take advantage of it if things really become worse, if Lee becomes coarse with me again and treats me badly."
Mr.Jenner. I direct your attention to the paragraph following that one, Mrs. Paine.
Mrs.Paine. Now another question:
"If as is possible it becomes necessary for me to come to live with you in order to say that I am a dependent of Michael's surely it would be necessary to have an official divorce, isn't that so? But I think Lee would not agree to a divorce, and to go simply from him to become a burden to you that I don't wish. Surely Michael would need to have a paper showing that I am living at his expense but no one would just take his word for it, right?"
And I realized much later that in the Soviet Union you don't do anything without the proper papers, and just having a person under your roof for anyone to see, having them in fact eating at your table is not, would not be, sufficient proof—would not be sufficient there in Russia.
RepresentativeBoggs. It might not be here.
Mrs.Paine. It might not be here. Well, in any case I judged she felt, reading my invitations this was of some importance to me whether Michael counted her as a deduction, and so on, whereas in fact this wasn't the point at all, but that I had hoped to somehow make, if possible, for her to accept such help.
Mr.Jenner. Have you finished your observations?
RepresentativeBoggs. As a matter of fact, there are certain limitations under our law as to how you can claim a dependent.
Mrs.Paine. Well, I asked a few people who didn't know much about it before I wrote it.
RepresentativeBoggs. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. The tenor then of this letter was as I gather from your testimony and as you have related to me last evening whether she would come to live with you in the fall or generally was something which now became subject to reconsideration?
Mrs.Paine. Pardon?
Mr.Jenner. The matter of her coming to live with you, the possibility of her living with you on a more extended basisthan——
Mrs.Paine. Was an invitation I had made to her.
Mr.Jenner. And that her response was not acceptance but one that she would now defer?
Mrs.Paine. It was a "thank you" and a refusal basically.
Mr.Jenner. Did you respond to that letter?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; I did. My letter is dated July 12.
Mr.Jenner. Mr. Liebeler will mark that Commission Exhibit 416, which consists of how many pages, Mr. Liebeler, three pages. You have that exhibit. Is that exhibit all in your handwriting?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; it is.
Mr.Jenner. Is that the draft of letter to which you have reference being your response to Marina's letterof——
Mrs.Paine. Undated letter.
Mr.Jenner. Undated letter which would be somewhere just prior to July 21?
Mrs.Paine. Right.
Mr.Jenner. And is that a draft of letter in the same condition now as it was when you completed it?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Have you supplied the Commission with a translation of that letter?
Mrs.Paine. I have.
Mr.Jenner. We will mark as Commission Exhibits 417 and 418 two exhibits, the first being a one-page exhibit entitled "Translation from Russian", andthe second being a four page photograph of what appears to be a letter dated July 21, 1963. Directing your attention to Exhibit 418.
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Do you find it?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Would you please identify that exhibit? It consists of four pages.
Mrs.Paine. It appears to be a photograph of my letter to her of July 21.
Mr.Jenner. Having observed it and looked at it last night, is it your best recollection at the moment that it is a photograph of the letter that you actually transmitted to Marina?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Directing your attention to the next exhibit which is No.418——
Mrs.Paine. 417, you are talking about the translation.
Mr.Jenner. Is that a translation of the letter, of your letter to her?
Mrs.Paine. That is far from complete.
RepresentativeFord. It is far from complete?
Mrs.Paine. Far from complete. It is incomplete.
Mr.Jenner. I would like to have you make then, directing your attention to the translation that has been supplied us.
Mrs.Paine. It goes as far as two-thirds down on page 2, you must have more somewhere.
Mr.Jenner. No; that is all we have. Would you mark with this red marker pen the point to which Exhibit 417 is a translation?
Mrs.Paine. Here.
Mr.Jenner. Is the translation accurate up to that point or rather do you have any exceptions to it?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. In relation to what?
Mrs.Paine. "This would" on the next to the last paragraph "this would offend my father very much." "This hurt my father", no subjunctive to it.
Mr.Jenner. Do it this way. Read what is on it, what theinterpreter——
Mrs.Paine. Wait.
Mr.Jenner. Said.
Mrs.Paine. I guess that is just the interpreter trying to "offer you an alternative". State the question again. You want to know if I take any exception to the translation I have before me, this portion of my July 21 letter? They are all small.
Mr.Jenner. They are small and none of consequence.
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. So far as you are concerned. Your translation, however, that you supplied the Commission is as far as you are concerned accurate and what you intend to say, at least?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; and I think it is what I said.
Mr.Jenner. All right. I offer in evidence, if the Chairman please, the documents that have been marked—may I have them please, Representative Ford?
Mrs.Paine. These, too?
Mr.Jenner. Documents marked 415, 416, 417, and 418.
Mr.McCloy. Do I understand there is not a complete translation?
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
Mr.McCloy. Of the letter. It is an incomplete translation?
Mrs.Paine. There is a page 2 somewhere.
Mr.Jenner. That is correct. During the noon hour I will see if that is not a mistake and if I can be supplied with the balance, if there is a balance.
Mr.McCloy. They may be admitted in this form and then you can advise us after the recess whether there is anything additional to insert at this point.
(The documents referred to, heretofore marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 415, 416, 417, and 418, were received in evidence.)
Mr.Jenner. Now, there is a matter to which I would like to draw your attention in your letter of July 21, which is Commission Exhibit No. 416, the last portion of it, and I direct your attention, in turn, to your own interpretation appearing at page 3. The last paragraph, when you brought Marina toNew Orleans, did you do anything by way of seeking to have people in New Orleans visit her?
Mrs.Paine. No. I have already testified that after an initial warm greeting with Lee, they quarreled, and I was uncomfortable there, and wanted to get back home. I had thought of making contact for Marina with someone in the Russian speaking community in New Orleans, and later when I didn't hear from her after this note that looks like "I will have to go back to Russia after all," I much regretted that I had not made some contact for her, someone she could talk to, herself. And anxious, not having heard from her a month from the time of this appendage to my corrected letter, I telephoned Ruth Kloepfer who is the clerk of the Quaker Meeting in New Orleans.
Mr.Jenner. Would you spell her name, please?
Mrs.Paine. She is not someone I know. That is spelled K-L-O-E-P-F-E-R, and I asked her if she knew any Russians in New Orleans. She did not. I then wrote to Mrs. Paul Blanchard.
Mr.Jenner. Excuse me, when you use the pronoun "she" there you asked Marina?
Mrs.Paine. I asked Mrs. Kloepfer if she knew any Russian-speaking people and described why I was interested in knowing. I must have given her the address of Marina, probably asked that she go and see her. In any case, I have a letter which followed that telephone call, which I wrote to Mrs. Paul Blanchard.
Mr.McCloy. Pardon me, did you say you telephoned to Mrs. Blanchard or you wrote to Mrs. Blanchard?
Mrs.Paine. I wrote to Mrs. Blanchard, I had originally telephoned to Mrs. Kloepfer.
Mr.Jenner. Did you make the telephone call when you were in New Orleans?
Mrs.Paine. No; this was when I was concerned. I had not heard from Marina for a month. I did not know whether she was in good health or had gone back to the Soviet Union.
Mr.Jenner. So you called Mrs. Kloepfer in New Orleans?
Mrs.Paine. That is correct. After having tried to call the Murrets. I had not had their name accurately.
RepresentativeBoggs. How did you happen to write to Mrs. Blanchard?
Mrs.Paine. She is the secretary of the Unitarian Church in New Orleans and I called the Quaker Church in Dallas to find out who was in New Orleans of the Quakers, and then I called the Unitarian Church which my husband belongs to in Dallas to find out who the secretary of the New Orleans Unitarian Church was.
RepresentativeBoggs. You do not know Mrs. Blanchard?
Mrs.Paine. I did not know her, and I did not know Mrs. Kloepfer either, and appended to this that I am leaving with the Commission is my carbon of a letter to Mrs. Blanchard of the Unitarian Church, which I sent in carbon to Mrs. Kloepfer so each would know what the other was doing in an effort to find a Russian-speaking person who could be a contact for Marina.
(At this point Representative Ford left the hearing room.)
Mr.Jenner. Mrs. Paine, you have now mentioned a letter that you wrote to Mrs. Blanchard; have you supplied the Commission with a carbon copy of that letter?
Mrs.Paine. I have.
Mr.Jenner. And it is a two-page document, Mr. Chairman, dated July 18, 1963, now marked as Commission Exhibit 419. That exhibit has now been handed to you, Mrs. Paine. Is that the carbon copy of your letter to Mrs. Blanchard?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; it is.
Mr.Jenner. You did not know Mrs. Blanchard, had never heard of her prior to the time you wrote the letter?
Mrs.Paine. That is correct. It begins saying, "Mrs. Philip Harper, the secretary of the Dallas Unitarian Church, suggested I write to you when I told her of the following problem."
Mr.Jenner. Is the document in the same condition now as it was when you prepared the original of which that is a carbon copy?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 419 the document which has been so identified.
Mr.McCloy. It may be so admitted.
(The document referred to was marked for identification as Commission Exhibit No. 419 and received in evidence.)
Mrs.Paine. Will there be any difficulty that it starts with typing and then it goes carbon?
Mr.Jenner. Explain that.
Mrs.Paine. I wrote two carbon paragraphs and then I thought I should write a carbon of this to Mrs. Blanchard and put in a carbon and then in my own copy put in typing.
Mr.Jenner. So that which appears to be a copy is an original and that which follows, what appears to be original, is an actual carbon copy of the letter you actually sent to Mrs. Blanchard?
Mrs.Paine. With copy stated here to Mrs. Kloepfer.
Mr.Jenner. Did you hear from Marina on that subject at any time?
Mrs.Paine. Yes. In her succeeding and last letter that I got from her.
Mr.Jenner. Her succeeding letter is dated what?
Mrs.Paine. It has no date inside. It is postmarked August 11 from New Orleans and sent to me while I was on vacation.
Mr.Jenner. We have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 420 the envelope and attached to 420 is what purports to be a four-page letter in Russian longhand—may we have this as a group exhibit consisting of the envelope and the four-page letter?
Mr.McCloy. If it is properly attached I guess you can.
Mrs.Paine. There is no date on the letter, if they separate you don't know what it is.
Mr.Jenner. We have marked the four-page letter as Commission Exhibit 421 in order to avoid any difficulty.
Directing your attention to Exhibit 421, do you recognize the handwriting on that exhibit?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; that is Marina Oswald's handwriting.
Mr.Jenner. That is a letter to you, is it not?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; it is.
Mr.Jenner. And you supplied the Commission with your translation of that letter?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; I have.
Mr.Jenner. That appears at pages 13 and 14 of the materials you furnished me?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Is that letter in the same condition now as it was when you received it?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; with the exception of an addition in my handwriting on the bottom of unmarked page 3.
Mr.Jenner. Would you read that?
Mrs.Paine. Which is a translation of one word.
Mr.Jenner. What word is that?