Mr.Specter. By "her", who do you mean, sir?
Mr.Kellerman. Mrs. Kennedy; I am sorry.
Mr.Specter. What would you estimate the crowd to be?
Mr.Kellerman. In the thousands; I would say there were two, three, four thousand people there.
Mr.Specter. Approximately how long did the greeting of the crowd at Love Field last, Mr. Kellerman?
Mr.Kellerman. Fifteen minutes. The motorcade left Love Field at 11:55.
Mr.Specter. Approximately how many cars were there in that motorcade?
Mr.Kellerman. At least 15.
Mr.Specter. What was the first car in line?
Mr.Kellerman. The first car in line, sir, was what we call the police pilot car. The duties of these police officers in that car—they would drive ahead.
Mr.Specter. Do you personally know who was in that car?
Mr.Kellerman. No, sir.
Mr.Specter. How far ahead of the regular motorcade were they to be?
Mr.Kellerman. They could be several blocks ahead of us.
Mr.Specter. What is the general purpose of that pilot car?
Mr.Kellerman. The purpose of that pilot car is to clear the roadway and instruct the officers along the route that the President is in motion and coming in back of them. Next you will find a small group of motorcycles.
Mr.Specter. Do you know how many motorcycles there were in Dallas on that day?
Mr.Kellerman. No; I don't.
Mr.Specter. Will you tell us what the custom is with respect to motorcycles?
Mr.Kellerman. Yes, sir; those motorcycles that would be in back of that police car were to assist any officers along the way in any disturbance that they would run into before we got to that point, or secondly, in the event that we needed them back on our car they could be called, utilized.
Mr.Specter. What is the next car in line?
Mr.Kellerman. The next car is the lead car. That car on that day was driven by Chief Curry of the Dallas Police Department.
His occupants in that car was Special Agent Winston Lawson, who was carrying a portable radio with him. Also in this car was Special Agent in Charge Verne Sorrels, in charge of our Dallas office. The other occupant, I believe, was a deputy sheriff.
Mr.Specter. Was it Sheriff Decker, perhaps, of Dallas County?
Mr.Kellerman. The name doesn't reach me, sir; I am sorry.
Mr.Specter. You described a radio. Will you tell us a little more fully what radio transmission there was in the motorcade, please?
Mr.Kellerman. Yes, sir. This lead car which Mr. Lawson was in has a portable radio. The President's car is next. This is equipped with a permanent set radio on the same frequency as that gentleman up front. The next car is our Secret Service followup car which has a permanent installation. The Secret Service car, as I say, is equipped with a permanent installation which connects the President's car and the lead car. The next car in back of our Secret Service car was the then Vice President Johnson. The Secret Service agent in that car had a portable radio that he could read all three of us ahead. His car following was a small Secret Service followup car, and they, too, had a portable set, which could read all four.
So we had a net of five on our own frequency. In the police cars they had their own city police frequency radios.
Mr.Specter. How many frequencies were used by your own network?
Mr.Kellerman. One.
RepresentativeFord. Do you have an alternative frequency, emergency frequency?
Mr.Kellerman. Yes, sir; we do. We have two of them.
Mr.Specter. What automobile came behind the lead automobile?
Mr.Kellerman. The President's car.
Mr.Specter. Describe the occupants of that car, indicating their positions, if you can, please.
Mr.Kellerman. Yes. The President—President Kennedy sat on the right rear seat. Next to him on the left seat was Mrs. Kennedy. On the right jump seat in front of President Kennedy was Governor Connally. On the left jump seat in front of Mrs. Kennedy was Mrs. Connally. I sat on the right passenger seat of the driver's seat, and Special Agent William Greer drove the vehicle.
Mr.Specter. How far were you behind the lead car?
Mr.Kellerman. No more than two or three car lengths.
SenatorCooper. What is that? I didn't hear it.
Mr.Kellerman. No more than two or three car lengths, Senator Cooper.
Mr.Specter. What car immediately followed the President's car?
Mr.Kellerman. Our own Secret Service followup car.
Mr.Specter. What kind of a car was that?
Mr.Kellerman. This is a 1956 Cadillac, four-door touring car with the top down.
Mr.Specter. Was that also a special automobile flown in?
Mr.Kellerman. This is a special automobile, flown in with the President's car; yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr.Specter. And who were the occupants of that car, indicating their positions in the car?
Mr.Kellerman. All during this ride in from Love Field Special Agent Sam Kinney was the driver of this automobile. The assistant to the Special Agent in Charge Emory Roberts was sitting in the front seat, the passenger side. This car has running boards. Standing on the front of the left running board was Special Agent Clinton Hill. In back of him on the rear of that same running board on that side was Special Agent William McIntyre. On the right running board standing forward was Special Agent John Ready, and standing in back of him on the rear of the right running board was Special Agent Paul Landis.
Mr.Specter. Did that automobile have jump seats?
Mr.Kellerman. This automobile has jump seats.
Mr.Specter. And what people occupied the jump seats?
Mr.Kellerman. It was occupied by Mr. Kenneth O'Donnell, who was the appointment secretary of President Kennedy, and Mr. Dave Powers.
Mr.Specter. Do you know which sat on which side?
Mr.Kellerman. Mr. O'Donnell sat on the left; Mr. Powers sat on the right.
Mr.Specter. Who was in the back seat of that automobile?
Mr.Kellerman. The back seat of that automobile on the right side was Special Agent George Hickey, and on the left side Special Agent Glen Bennett.
Mr.Specter. How were the special agents in the followup car armed, if at all?
Mr.Kellerman. Each agent carries his own gun. This is a 4-inch revolver on their person.
Mr.Specter. Would that apply to you and Mr. Greer as well?
Mr.Kellerman. Absolutely.
Mr.Specter. Were there any other arms in the President's followup car?
Mr.Kellerman. Yes, sir; in this followup car we have what is now known as an AR-15. This is a rifle, and it is on all movements; this vehicle is out of the case; it won't be shown; it could be laying flat on the floor, but she is ready to go.
Mr.Specter. Now, how far behind the President's car did the Presidential followup car follow?
Mr.Kellerman. Not knowing how far it was behind, I would say, from the practice of that driver that he has, five feet would be a maximum.
Mr.Specter. What car was in the motorcade immediately behind the President's followup car?
Mr.Kellerman. That was Vice President Johnson's car then.
Mr.Specter. What kind of a car was that on that particular day?
Mr.Kellerman. This was a Lincoln four-door Continental convertible. This was a four-door car, with no top on it.
Mr.Specter. Is that a special car, also, or is that obtained on the market?
Mr.Kellerman. This is not a special car; it is a car that is on the market.
Mr.Specter. What car followed the Vice President's car?
Mr.Kellerman. The car following his car was a police car. It was driven by a member of the Dallas Police Force, or I just don't recall. I am sorry.
Mr.Specter. Do you have personal knowledge or detail of the occupants of the Vice President's car?
Mr.Kellerman. Yes; I do.
Mr.Specter. Who was present there?
Mr.Kellerman. Special Agent Rufus Youngblood sat in the front seat on the right side. In back of him on the right side and the rear was the then Vice President Johnson. Next to him was Mrs. Johnson, and next to Mrs. Johnson was Senator Yarborough.
Mr.Specter. Was Vice President Johnson seated on the right side or the left side of the rear seat?
Mr.Kellerman. On the right side, sir.
Mr.Specter. Were there jump seats in the Vice President's car?
Mr.Kellerman. No, sir.
Mr.Specter. Do you know the identity of the driver of the Vice President's car?
Mr.Kellerman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Specter. Who was that?
Mr.Kellerman. That was Mr. Hurchel Jacks. He is a Dallas police officer.
Mr.Specter. Might he be a Texas State police officer?
Mr.Kellerman. Yes, sir; you are right.
Mr.Specter. Do you know the identity of all of the individuals in the Vice President's followup car?
Mr.Kellerman. Not the driver. The agents, yes.
Mr.Specter. Who were they, sir?
Mr.Kellerman. Special Agent Thomas L. Johns, Special Agent Warren Taylor, and I believe that is all.
Mr.Specter. Are you able to indicate their precise positions?
Mr.Kellerman. No, no.
Mr.Specter. Now, what car, if you know, followed the Vice President's followup car?
Mr.Kellerman. That was car—as an example, car No. 1, which would be a congressional car; the occupants I do not know at the present time.
Mr.Specter. And behind that car, describe in a general way the balance of the motorcade, if you will, please.
Mr.Kellerman. All right. The balance of the motorcade, the back of that car No. 1 which would be the congressional people would be two press cars, one covering the wire people, and one would be the photographic group. Then you would have a series of guest cars, and then a press bus. And then a police car followup, bringing up the entire motorcade.
Mr.Specter. You described the motorcycles which followed the pilot car. Were there any other motorcycles in the motorcade?
Mr.Kellerman. Yes, sir; we had four other motorcycles opposite the back wheel of the President's vehicle, sir.
Mr.Specter. Were those on both sides or on each side?
Mr.Kellerman. On each side; two on each side.
Mr.Specter. Were there any other motorcycles in the balance of the motorcade?
Mr.Kellerman. Not that I recall.
Mr.Specter. At what speed did the motorcade proceed at the various times en route, say, from Love Field down to the downtown section of Dallas, Tex.?
Mr.Kellerman. As we left Love Field, the driveway from this apron on the field was sort of a winding thing, and there were many people that gathered on the roadside to view him as they passed. I don't think we traveled more than 12 to 15 miles until we left the airport apron proper.
Mr.Specter. Twelve to fifteen miles per hour?
Mr.Kellerman. Per hour.
Mr.Specter. Yes.
Mr.Kellerman. Then, as we were in the opening between there and the city limits of Dallas, we could have gone 25 to 30.
Mr.Specter. What was the size of the crowd at that specific point?
Mr.Kellerman. Nothing in between then until we hit the outskirts of the city. Of course, then you got into a residential, a school, area where all the people were out on the curb line.
Mr.Specter. What was the speed when you reached that area?
Mr.Kellerman. Then we would reduce the speed down to 15 miles an hour.
Mr.Specter. What is your best estimate of the minimum speed traveled until you reached the downtown area?
Mr.Kellerman. We could have been going 25 to 30 at several times, sir.
Mr.Specter. What were the crowds like in the downtown area itself?
Mr.Kellerman. A lot of people.
Mr.Specter. What was the speed of the motorcade when you came into the downtown area?
Mr.Kellerman. It would be reduced down to 10 to 15 miles an hour, sir.
Mr.Specter. Were there any unusual occurrences en route from Love Field until, say, you got to the downtown area of Dallas, Tex.?
Mr.Kellerman. As we were on the outskirts of this town and apparently reaching a crowded area there were a group of youngsters on the right side of the car curb-line-wise, that had a large sign, oh, perhaps the width of the two windows there, that said, "Please, Mr. President, stop and shake our hands," and he saw this and he called to the driver and said, "Stop," he said, "call these people over and I will shake their hands," which we did. The entire motorcade stopped. I got out of the car and stood alongside of it while these people were right up on me. The agents who were on the followup car, all around it. And then after a few seconds he said, "All right; let's travel on."
Mr.Specter. You say the agents in the followup car moved up at the stopping?
Mr.Kellerman. Always, sir.
Mr.Specter. Specifically, what did they do on that occasion?
Mr.Kellerman. They crowded right in between the President, the car, and the people.
Mr.Specter. Did the President actually leave the car?
Mr.Kellerman. No.
Mr.Specter. And how long did that stop last?
Mr.Kellerman. A matter of seconds.
Mr.Specter. Was there any other unusual occurrence en route to the downtown area itself?
Mr.Kellerman. No; I can recall, however, one small affair. I think we were in the heart of Dallas on this street when a young boy jumped off the curb and apparently he was thinking of running over to the President's car and shaking his hands when one of our people left the followup car and put him back on the curb, and that all happened in motion so there was nothing out of the way.
Mr.Specter. I show you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit No. 347 and ask you if you are at this time able to tell us what that photograph represents.
TheChairman. Congressman Ford, may I interrupt at this time to ask to be excused? I have a session in the Supreme Court, but I will be back later.
RepresentativeFord. Thank you very much, Mr. Chief Justice.
(Chief Justice Warren left the hearing room.)
Mr.Kellerman. This is an aerial photo of the downtown parade.
Mr.Specter. Are you able to identify the street on which you proceeded coming into the area depicted by that photograph?
Mr.Kellerman. Yes, sir. This is—this would be Main Street as we came into the heart of Dallas.
Mr.Specter. I think it might be helpful if we marked that as Main Street if we can get a pencil or pen that will mark on that.
Mr.Craig. May I suggest the witness mark it?
Mr.Specter. I think it is a good idea. Will you mark the street which you have identified as Main Street?
(Witness marking.)
Mr.Specter. Will you alsomark——
Mr.Kellerman. We weretraveling——
Mr.Specter. The street onto which you turned from Main Street?
Mr.Kellerman. As we were coming up from Main Street or down, either way.
Mr.Specter. In what general direction were you proceeding on Main Street?
Mr.Kellerman. This was a westerly direction.
Mr.Specter. Would you put an arrow indicating which way is north on the map? That is a general northerly direction on the map.
(Witness indicating.)
Mr.Specter. Will you mark an arrow on Main Street showing the direction on which you were proceeding on Main? And how far did you proceed on Main Street to what street?
Mr.Kellerman. Elm Street, sir. This is a very short block, maybe a couple of hundred feet at the most.
Mr.Specter. My question was to what street did you proceed on Main? You then drove to what street?
Mr.Kellerman. Houston Street.
Mr.Specter. Which way did you turn onto Houston Street?
Mr.Kellerman. Turned right, which would be north.
Mr.Specter. Will you mark the street that you have told us would be Houston Street?
(Witness indicating.)
Mr.Specter. How far did you proceed down Houston Street?
Mr.Kellerman. I am sure it wasn't more than 200 feet at the most. It was a real short block.
Mr.Specter. What street then did you turn onto as you turned off of Houston Street?
Mr.Kellerman. From Houston we turned onto Elm, which was a rather sharp turn with a downgrade, sir.
Mr.Specter. Was that a turn on the left or the right?
Mr.Kellerman. To the left, sir.
Mr.Specter. I ask that Exhibit 347 be admitted in evidence, may it please the Commission.
RepresentativeFord. It will be admitted.
Mr.Specter. I now show you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit No. 348, Mr. Kellerman, and I ask you if you are able at this time to identify what building is in that picture?
Mr.Kellerman. This building right straight ahead in the photo—I couldn't have told you on the day of the 22nd of November what it was, but as of now this is the Texas Depository Building.
Mr.Specter. Is that the building known as the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr.Kellerman. That is right, sir.
(The photograph marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 347 and 348 for identification and received in evidence.)
Mr.Specter. Will you mark on Exhibit 347—we have 348, we will get 348 back in a moment. I would like to have you mark in the aerial shot the precise location of that building with the initials "TS."
(Witness marks.)
Mr.Specter. For the written part of our record will you describe how many stories high the Texas School Book Depository building is?
Mr.Kellerman. This is a seven-story building. From here it appears to be a rather square-type constructed.
Mr.Specter. All right. As you were proceeding in a generally northerly direction on Houston Street, can you describe the layout of the street, indicating first the approximate width of that street?
Mr.Kellerman. Houston Street is a rather wide city street similar to anything we have here in Washington, really, and being in the heart of the business section, I would say that it was a six-lane street at the time.
Mr.Specter. What was on your right as you proceeded down Houston Street?
Mr.Kellerman. The buildings.
Mr.Specter. And how about on your left?
Mr.Kellerman. On my left it was open.
Mr.Specter. As you turned left onto Elm Street, will you describe what was on your right?
Mr.Kellerman. As we turned left onto Elm Street and left this building that we are speaking ofhere——
Mr.Specter. Is that the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr.Kellerman. Yes; then your area became clear.
Mr.Specter. On the right?
Mr.Kellerman. On the right, sir. This was an open field area with a hill. Now, there were, if I recall correctly, just at the brink of the hill, right beyond this building in question, there was a small white—how can I describe it?
Mr.Specter. A little park area?
Mr.Kellerman. A little park area; that is right. And beyond it it was all open.
Mr.Specter. What was on your left at about that time as you proceeded down Elm Street?
Mr.Kellerman. Right. As we turned left on Elm Street off Houston, this, too, was a little plaza area, and kind of a triangular thing where the street was on the opposite side; this is an apparently one-way street, and directly to our left as we turned you had to view, this looked like a little one-story plaza building or structure.
Mr.Specter. To complete the scene, as you looked ahead of you down Elm Street what, if anything, did you see immediately in front of you?
Mr.Kellerman. Yes. First thing that I saw was that the road was going to turn, and then a little further ahead we had a viaduct which we were going under.
Mr.Specter. Do you know what name the Dallas Texans give to that viaduct?
Mr.Kellerman. No; I really don't.
Mr.Specter. Have you heard it described since as the triple overpass?
Mr.Kellerman. No; I haven't.
Mr.Specter. What was the approximate width of Elm Street in lanes of travel, if you recall?
Mr.Kellerman. It is at least three lanes, sir.
Mr.Specter. And describe the terrain, whether it was smooth, level or in what way you went as you went down Elm Street.
Mr.Kellerman. As we went down Elm Street, there was a smooth road and the terrain on each side was a grassy plotted area, a very cleared-off area, visibility tremendous.
Mr.Specter. And describe the composure of the crowds at that time.
Mr.Kellerman. As we turned north on to Houston Street, this was primarily the end of the crowd in Dallas, Tex.; in the downtown section, there were still a few on the sidewalk until we got to Elm Street. As we turned in a northerly direction to Elm Street, which would be on our left, then the crowds just diminished. They were spotty, standing on the grassy plot. They were not on the side of the street. In fact, there were just a matter of a handful, that was all, and we were through it.
Mr.Specter. Do you know what time it was when you got to the intersection of Houston and Elm on November 22?
Mr.Kellerman. Not at Houston and Elm; no. No; I don't.
Mr.Specter. What was the speed of the motorcade, Mr. Kellerman, as you were proceeding down Main Street at about the time you turned right onto Houston?
Mr.Kellerman. Ten, fifteen, no more; real parade speed.
Mr.Specter. How far ahead of you was the lead car at that time?
Mr.Kellerman. Again, it was four or five car lengths in front.
Mr.Specter. Do you know how far behind you the President's followup car was as you turned right onto Houston from Main Street?
Mr.Kellerman. No; I don't, but I am positive it was right on our rear wheels.
Mr.Specter. All right.
Now, as you turned left off Houston onto Elm, what is your best estimate of the speed of the President's automobile at that time?
Mr.Kellerman. As we turned onto Elm Street and the crowd, we were through the section of Dallas; we might have had—the driver picked it up because we were all through. Purely a guess, we could have been going at the most 25.
Mr.Specter. What would your estimate, your minimum estimate, of the speed be?
Mr.Kellerman. Fifteen.
Mr.Specter. As you turned left onto Elm Street, how far were you behind the lead car at that point?
Mr.Kellerman. I am going to say the same; three to five car lengths, but I can, to go a little further, I can see this car ahead of me. He is not running away from us.
Mr.Specter. How about the pilot car; was that car in sight?
Mr.Kellerman. No; that I didn't see; I didn't see it.
Mr.Specter. Do you know from your personal observation at the time you turned left onto Elm Street how far the President's followup car was behind you at that point?
Mr.Kellerman. Not from personal observation.
Mr.Specter. All right. Now, describe what occurred as you proceeded down Elm Street after turning off of Houston.
Mr.Kellerman. As we turned off Houston onto Elm and made the short little dip to the left going down grade, as I said, we were away from buildings, and were—there was a sign on the side of the road which I don't recall what it was or what it said, but we no more than passed that and you are out in the open, and there is a report like a firecracker, pop. And I turned my head to the right because whatever this noise was I was sure that it came from the right and perhaps into the rear, and as I turned my head to the right to view whatever it was or see whatever it was, I heard a voice from the back seat and I firmly believe it was the President's, "My God, I am hit," and I turned around and he has got his hands up here like this.
Mr.Specter. Indicating right hand up toward his neck?
Mr.Kellerman. That is right, sir. In fact, both hands were up in that direction.
SenatorCooper. Which side of his neck?
Mr.Kellerman. Beg pardon?
SenatorCooper. Which side of his neck?
Mr.Kellerman. Both hands were up, sir; this one is like this here and here we are with thehands——
Mr.Specter. Indicating the left hand is up above the head.
Mr.Kellerman. In the collar section.
Mr.Specter. As you are positioning yourself in the witness chair, your right hand is up with the finger at the ear level as if clutching from the right of the head; would that be an accurate description of the position you pictured there?
Mr.Kellerman. Yes. Good. There was enough for me to verify that the man was hit. So, in the same motion I come right back and grabbed the speaker and said to the driver, "Let's get out of here; we are hit," and grabbed the mike and I said, "Lawson, this is Kellerman,"—this is Lawson, who is in the front car. "We are hit; get us to the hospital immediately." Now, in the seconds that I talked just now, a flurry of shells come into the car. I then looked back and this time Mr. Hill, who was riding on the left front bumper of our followup car, was on the back trunk of that car; the President was sideways down into the back seat.
Mr.Specter. Indicating on his left side.
Mr.Kellerman. Right; just like I am here.
Mr.Specter. You mean, correct, left side?
Mr.Kellerman. Correct; yes, sir. Governor Connally by that time is lying flat backwards into her lap—Mrs. Connally—and she was lying flat over him.
Mr.Specter. Who was lying flat over him?
Mr.Kellerman. Mrs. Connally was lying flat over the Governor.
Mr.Specter. You say that you turned to your right immediately after you heard a shot?
Mr.Kellerman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Specter. What was the reason for your reacting to your right?
Mr.Kellerman. That was the direction that I heard this noise, pop.
Mr.Specter. Do you have a reaction as to the height from which the noise came?
Mr.Kellerman. No; honestly, I do not.
RepresentativeFord. Was there any reaction that you noticed on the part of Greer when the noise was noticed by you?
Mr.Kellerman. You are referring, Mr. Congressman, to the reaction to get this car out of there?
RepresentativeFord. Yes.
Mr.Kellerman. Mr. Congressman, I have driven that car many times, and I never cease to be amazed even to this day with the weight of the automobile plus the power that is under the hood; we just literally jumped out of the God-damn road.
RepresentativeFord. As soon as this noise was heard, or as soon as you transmitted this message to Lawson?
Mr.Kellerman. As soon as I transmitted to the driver first as I went to Lawson. I just leaned sideways to him and said, "Let's get out of here. We are hit."
RepresentativeFord. That comment was made to Greer; not to Lawson?
Mr.Kellerman. Yes, sir; that is right.
RepresentativeFord. And the subsequent message was to Lawson?
Mr.Kellerman. Correct. That is right.
Mr.Specter. With relationship to that first noise that you have described, when did you hear the voice?
Mr.Kellerman. His voice?
Mr.Specter. We will start with his voice.
Mr.Kellerman. OK. From the noise of which I was in the process of turning to determine where it was or what it was, it carried on right then. Why Iam so positive, gentlemen, that it was his voice—there is only one man in that back seat that was from Boston, and the accents carried very clearly.
Mr.Specter. Well, had you become familiar with the President's voice prior to that day?
Mr.Kellerman. Yes; very much so.
Mr.Specter. And what was the basis for your becoming familiar with his voice prior to that day?
Mr.Kellerman. I had been with him for 3 years.
Mr.Specter. And had you talked with him on a very frequent basis during the course of that association?
Mr.Kellerman. He was a very free man to talk to; yes. He knew most all the men, most everybody who worked in the White House as well as everywhere, and he would call you.
Mr.Specter. And from your experience would you say that you could recognize the voice?
Mr.Kellerman. Very much, sir; I would.
Mr.Specter. Now, I think you may have answered this, but I want to pinpoint just when you heard that statement which you have attributed to President Kennedy in relationship to the sound which you described as a firecracker.
Mr.Kellerman. This noise which I attribute as a firecracker, when this occurred and I am in the process of determining where it comes because I am sure it came off my right rear somewhere; the voice broke in right then.
Mr.Specter. At about the same time?
Mr.Kellerman. That is correct, sir. That is right.
Mr.Specter. Now, did President Kennedy say anything beside, "My God, I am hit."
Mr.Kellerman. That is the last words he said, sir.
Mr.Specter. Did Mrs. Kennedy say anything at that specific time?
Mr.Kellerman. Mr. Specter, there was an awful lot of confusion in that back seat. She did a lot of talking which I can't recall all the phrases.
Mr.Specter. Well,pinpoint——
Mr.Kellerman. But after the flurry of shots, I recall her saying, "What are they doing to you?" Now again, of course, my comparison of the voice of her speech—certainly, I have heard it many times, and in the car there was conversation she was carrying on through shock, I am sure.
Mr.Specter. Well, going back to the precise time that you heard the President say, "My God, I am hit," do you recollect whether she said anything at that time?
Mr.Kellerman. No.
Mr.Specter. Whether or not you can re-create what she said?
Mr.Kellerman. Not that I can recall right then, sir. This statement, or whatever she said, happened after all the shooting was over.
Mr.Specter. All right. Now, you have described hearing a noise which sounded like a firecracker and you have described turning to your right and described hearing the President's voice and, again, what was your next motion, if any, or movement, if any?
Mr.Kellerman. After I was sure that his statement was right that he was hit, turned from the back I come rightdown——
Mr.Specter. You just indicated that you had turned to the left. Had you turned to the left after hearing his voice?
Mr.Kellerman. Yes; certainly.
Mr.Specter. And what did you see? You have described what you saw in terms of position of his hands.
Mr.Kellerman. That was it.
Mr.Specter. What did you do next?
Mr.Kellerman. That is when I completely turned to my right and grabbed for the mike in the same motion, sideways telling the driver, "Let's get out of here; we are hit."
Mr.Specter. Will you give us the best estimate of the lapse of time from the instant you heard the sound which appeared to you to be a firecracker until you instructed Mr. Greer in the way you have described?
Mr.Kellerman. Seconds.
Mr.Specter. How many seconds?
Mr.Kellerman. Three or four.
Mr.Specter. Now, how long did it take you to relay the instructions which you have told us about to Special Agent Lawson; what your best estimate would be?
Mr.Kellerman. Instant, in seconds again. Again it is three to five.
Mr.Specter. Now, in your prior testimony you described a flurry of shells into the car. How many shots did you hear after the first noise which you described as sounding like a firecracker?
Mr.Kellerman. Mr. Specter, these shells came in all together.
Mr.Specter. Are you able to say how many you heard?
Mr.Kellerman. I am going to say two, and it was like a double bang—bang, bang.
Mr.Specter. You mean now two shots in addition to the first noise?
Mr.Kellerman. Yes, sir; yes, sir; at least.
Mr.Specter. What is your best estimate of the time, in seconds, from the first noise sounding like a firecracker until the second noise which you heard?
Mr.Kellerman. This was instantaneous.
Mr.Specter. No; let me repeat the question so I am sure you understand it. From the time you first heard the noise coming to your right rear, which you described as sounding like a firecracker, until you heard the flurry of shots?
Mr.Kellerman. This is about how long it took, sir. As I am viewing, trying to determine this noise, I turned to my right and I heard the voice and I came back and I verify it and speak to the driver, grab the mike, these shots come in.
Mr.Specter. Well, you have described it as 3 to 4 seconds from thetime——
Mr.Kellerman. No more.
Mr.Specter. From the time of the first noise—wait a minute—until you gave the instruction to Mr. Greer and then as you made the statement to Special Agent Lawson over the microphone that was an instantaneous timespan as you have described it.
Mr.Kellerman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Specter. How soon thereafter did the flurry of shots come?
Mr.Kellerman. They came in, Mr. Specter, while I am delivering that radio message.
Mr.Specter. To Mr. Lawson. All right. Was there any timespan which you could discern between the first and second shots and what you have described as the flurry?
Mr.Kellerman. I will estimate 5 seconds, if that.
RepresentativeFord. But this flurry took place while you were occupied with these other activities; is that correct?
Mr.Kellerman. That is right, sir.
RepresentativeFord. You don't recall precisely a second shot and a third shot such as you did in the case of the first?
Mr.Kellerman. Let me give you an illustration, sir, before I can give you an answer. You have heard the sound barrier, of a plane breaking the sound barrier, bang, bang? That is it.
RepresentativeFord. This is for the second and the third, or the flurry as you described it?
Mr.Kellerman. That is right; that is right, sir.
Mr.Specter. On your 5-second estimate, was that in reference, Mr. Kellerman, to the total timespan from the first noise until the flurry ended?
Mr.Kellerman. That is right; that is right.
Mr.Specter. All right. Now, when the flurry occurred then, were you still facing forward talking into the microphone to Lawson?
Mr.Kellerman. That is right.
Mr.Specter. All right. Then precisely what was your next movement after completing the delivery of that message to Lawson?
Mr.Kellerman. When I completed the delivery of those instructions to Lawson, I just hung up the receiver and looked back.
Mr.Specter. To your right this time—to your left; pardon me.
Mr.Kellerman. To my left; that is right. This is when I first viewed Mr. Hill, who was on the back ofthe——
Mr.Specter. Precisely where was he in that instant?
Mr.Kellerman. Lying right across the trunk of the car with Mrs. Kennedy on the left rear. Mr. Hill's head was right up in back of her.
Mr.Specter. When you describe the left rear you mean as the car was facing?
Mr.Kellerman. As the car is traveling, sir; yes, sir. He was lying across the trunk of this car, feet on this side.
Mr.Specter. Was he flat across the trunk of the car?
Mr.Kellerman. Flat; that is right.
Mr.Specter. What was the position of Mrs. Kennedy's body at that time?
Mr.Kellerman. She was sitting up in the corner of this back seat, like this.
Mr.Specter. So that she was on the buttocks area of her body at that time?
Mr.Kellerman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Specter. And what movement, if any, did you observe Mrs. Kennedy make at that time?
Mr.Kellerman. I never did see Mrs. Kennedy leave that back seat, sir.
Mr.Specter. When you say the back seat, are youreferring——
Mr.Kellerman. The seat she was sitting on.
Mr.Specter. Are you referring to the seat itself of the automobile?
Mr.Kellerman. Right.
Mr.Specter. Where did you look next; what did you observe following that?
Mr.Kellerman. Then I observed how the President was lying, which was—he was—flat in the seat in this direction.
Mr.Specter. On his left-hand side?
Mr.Kellerman. Yes, sir. Governor Connally was lying straight on his back with Mrs. Connally over him about halfway.
Mr.Specter. Did Governor Connally say anything up to this point?
Mr.Kellerman. No.
Mr.Specter. Did Mrs. Connally say anything up to that point?
Mr.Kellerman. No.
Mr.Specter. When was it that Mrs. Kennedy made the statement which you have described, "My God, what are they doing?"
Mr.Kellerman. This occurred after the flurry of shots.
Mr.Specter. At that time you looked back and saw Special Agent Hill across the trunk of the car, had your automobile accelerated by that time?
Mr.Kellerman. Tremendously so; yes.
Mr.Specter. Now, to the best of your ability to recollect, exactly when did your automobile first accelerate?
Mr.Kellerman. Our car accelerated immediately on the time—at the time—this flurry of shots came into it.
Mr.Specter. Would you say theacceleration——
Mr.Kellerman. Between the second and third shot.
SenatorCooper. Might I ask a question there?
Mr.Specter. Yes.
SenatorCooper. A few minutes ago you said in response to a question that when you spoke to the driver the car leaped forward from an acceleration immediately. Did that acceleration occur before the second shot was fired?
Mr.Kellerman. Yes, sir. Just about the time that it came in.
SenatorCooper. About the time it came in?
Mr.Kellerman. Yes, sir.
SenatorCooper. Not before?
Mr.Kellerman. No.
SenatorCooper. One other question: You said the flurry of shots came in the car. You were leaning forward talking to the driver after the first shot. What made you aware of a flurry of shots?
Mr.Kellerman. Senator, between all the matter that was—between all the matter that was blown off from an injured person, this stuff all came over.
SenatorCooper. What was that?
Mr.Kellerman. Body matter; flesh.
SenatorCooper. When you were speaking of a flurry of shots, was there a longer interval between the first shot and the second shot as compared to the interval between the second shot and the third shot?
Mr.Kellerman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Specter. When did you first notice the substance which you have described as body matter?
Mr.Kellerman. When I got to the hospital, sir, it was all over my coat.
Mr.Specter. Did you notice it flying past you at any time prior to your arrival at the hospital?
Mr.Kellerman. Yes; I know there was something in the air.
Mr.Specter. When, in relation to the shots, Mr. Kellerman, did you notice the substance in the air?
Mr.Kellerman. Fine. When I have given the orders to Mr. Lawson, this is when it all came between the driver and myself.
Mr.Specter. Can you describe what it was in a little more detail as it appeared to you at that time?
Mr.Kellerman. This is a rather poor comparison, but let's say you take a little handful of matter—I am going to use sawdust for want of a better item—and just throw it.
Mr.Specter. Can you describe the sound of the flurry of shots by way of distinction with the way you have described the sound of the first shot?
Mr.Kellerman. Well, having heard all types of guns fired, most of them, rather, if I recall correctly these were two sharp reports, sir. Again, I am going to refer to it as like a plane going through a sound barrier; bang, bang.
Mr.Specter. Now, you are referring to the flurry?
Mr.Kellerman. That is right.
Mr.Specter. Did it sound differently from the first noise you have described as being a firecracker?
Mr.Kellerman. Yes; definitely; very much so.
RepresentativeFord. Was there any other noise going on at the time of the second and third shots different from the noise of the crowd or otherwise at the time of the first shot?
Mr.Kellerman. We had no crowd, sir. There was nothing there.
RepresentativeFord. So the external noise was identical as far asthe——
Mr.Kellerman. Very much.
RepresentativeFord. First or second or the third shot?
Mr.Kellerman. Yes, sir. We are in an open-field area, so to speak, and everything was just clear.
RepresentativeFord. So there was no other sound that would have disturbed your hearing capability from the first through the third shot?
Mr.Kellerman. That is right; no other shot.
RepresentativeFord. Your only problem would be your personal activity after the first shot.
Mr.Kellerman. Correct.
RepresentativeFord. Your activity of speaking to Greer and talking to Lawson?
Mr.Kellerman. That is correct, sir; yes, sir.
RepresentativeFord. Was there any crowd reaction?
Mr.Kellerman. There was no crowd.
RepresentativeFord. There were a few stragglers?
Mr.Kellerman. A handful, and I didn't view any reaction, sir.
RepresentativeFord. All right.
Mr.Specter. Mr. Kellerman, you said earlier that there were at least two additional shots. Is there any area in your mind or possibility, as you recollect that situation, that there could have been more than two shots, or are you able to say with any certainty?
Mr.Kellerman. I am going to say that I have, from the firecracker report and the two other shots that I know, those were three shots. But, Mr. Specter, if President Kennedy had from all reports four wounds, Governor Connally three, there have got to be more than three shots, gentlemen.
SenatorCooper. What is that answer? What did he say?
Mr.Specter. Will you repeat that, Mr. Kellerman?
Mr.Kellerman. President Kennedy had four wounds, two in the head and shoulder and the neck. Governor Connally, from our reports, had three. There have got to be more than three shots.
RepresentativeFord. Is that why you havedescribed——
Mr.Kellerman. The flurry.
RepresentativeFord. The noise as a flurry?
Mr.Kellerman. That is right, sir.
Mr.Specter. Excuse me, do you have any independent recollection, Mr. Kellerman, of the number of shots, aside from the inference that you make as to how many points of wounds there were?
Mr.Kellerman. Could you rephrase that, please?
Mr.Specter. Yes. You have drawn a conclusion, in effect, by saying that there were four wounds for the President and three wounds for the Governor; and from that, you say there must have been more than three shots in your opinion or your view. But my question is: Do you have any current recollection of having heard more than three shots?
Mr.Kellerman. No. I don't. I will have to say "No."
SenatorCooper. Has that been your recollection from the very time of the shooting?
Mr.Kellerman. No, sir; it has been my opinion.
SenatorCooper. Not your opinion, but from the time of the shooting you think then that you heard only three shots, or didyou——
Mr.Kellerman. Yes.
SenatorCooper. Or did you ever think that you heard more than three?
Mr.Kellerman. No, sir; I can't say that, sir.
Mr.Specter. Now, you referred to four wounds, Mr. Kellerman, realizing, of course, your characterization is only lay opinion.
Mr.Kellerman. Very true.
Mr.Specter. Would you tell us which wounds you made reference to by that statement, please?
Mr.Kellerman. All right. Can I keep the train going from the time we got to the hospital?
Mr.Specter. Yes, sir; do it in your own way just as you please.
Mr.Kellerman. Fine. As we arrived at the hospital I immediately got out of the car. Our followup car is in back of us, as you will recall. I yelled to the agents, "Get in"—"Go get us two stretchers on wheels."
In the meantime in a matter of seconds—I don't know how they got out so fast—I turned right around to the back door and opened it. By this time Mrs. Connally had raised up, and the Governor is lying in her lap, face up. His eyes are open and he is looking at me, and I am fairly sure he is alive. By this time I noticed the two stretchers coming out of the emergency room, and I said to the Governor, I said, "Governor, don't worry; everything is going to be all right." And he nodded his head, which I was fairly convinced that that man was alive.
By this time the stretcher is there. I get inside on one side of him, and Special Agent Hill on the other. Somebody is holding his feet, and we remove the Governor and put him on the stretcher and they take him in.
We then get in and help Mrs. Connally out. Our next move is to get Mrs. Kennedy off from the seat, which was a little difficult, but she was removed. Then Mr. Hill removed his coat and laid it over the President's face and shoulder. He and I among two other people—I don't know—we lifted up the President and put him on a stretcher and followed him right into the emergency room.
Gentlemen, this emergency room is a, it looks like a, checkerboard; it has a walkway down the center and a crossway and there are rooms on each side. President Kennedy was put into the one on the right, Governor Connally across on the left. And as we pushed the wheelchair in—we pushed the stretcher inside, the medical people just seemed to form right in, right there, and I walked around him and I wanted to look at this man's face, they had him face up.
SenatorCooper. The President?
Mr.Kellerman. The President; I am sorry. I did not see any wounds in that man's face.
Mr.Specter. Indicating with your hand at that moment the front part of his face?
Mr.Kellerman. Right, sir.
Mr.Specter. May I interrupt you just to ask whether you had anyview——
Mr.Kellerman. Surely.
Mr.Specter. Of the rear part of his head?
Mr.Kellerman. I did not, sir.
Mr.Specter. What was the rearmost or uppermost portion of President Kennedy's head which you could observe at that time?
Mr.Kellerman. It was the hairline to the ear, sir.
Mr.Specter. Proceed.
Mr.Kellerman. Having all the medical people in there, my business is left in their hands. So I left. Mrs. Kennedy, incidentally, was still in there.
Mr.Specter. In where, sir?
Mr.Kellerman. In the emergency room with him. Which after a few minutes they convinced her to leave, and she sat outside the room while they were working over the President. I walked into this center area of this emergency room—and I am looking for a telephone—which there is a little doctor's office and I walked inside, and I am alone at that time, except one medic who was in there. There are two phones and I said, "Can I use either one of these phones to get outside?" and he said, "Yes; just pick one up."
By this time Mr. Lawson enters and also Mr. Hill. I asked Mr. Lawson for the telephone number of the Dallas White House switchboard. He immediately has it and I said to Mr. Hill, "Will you dial it, please?" By that time a medic comes into the room from President Kennedy's section and he asks if anybody knows the blood type of the President—President Kennedy. We all carry it. I produce mine, and that is what I believe they used; I am not sure. By this time the connection is made with the White House operator in Dallas, and I took the phone, identified myself, and I said, "Give me Washington. Please don't pull this line; let's leave it open."
I got the Washington operator and I said, identified myself, and I said, "Give me Mr. Behn."
Mr. Behn was in the office at the time, and I said—his name is Gerald Behn—and I said, "Gerry, we have had an incident here in Dallas. The President, the Governor have been shot. We are in the emergency room of the Parkland Memorial Hospital." I said, "Mark down the time." Of course, since that time until now we have disagreed on about 3 minutes. I said it is 12:38, which would be 1:38 Dallas time. I am sorry—Washington time.
Mr.Specter. Was that at the time you were talking to Mr. Behn?
Mr.Kellerman. To Mr. Behn; yes, sir.
Mr.Specter. And your version is that it is 12:38 Dallas time?
Mr.Kellerman. 12:38. He said it was 12:41; he told me the next day.
Mr.Specter. May I interrupt you there for you to tell us how long after you arrived at the hospital did you make that telephone call to Mr. Behn, to the best of your recollection?
Mr.Kellerman. Three to five minutes.
Mr.Specter. All right. The topic we are on now, Mr. Kellerman, is your own way of relating the description of the wounds, starting with four wounds on President Kennedy.
Mr.Kellerman. Right; OK.
Mr.Specter. Proceed, then.
Mr.Kellerman. I can eclipse an awful lot here and get into the morgue here in Bethesda, because that is where I looked him over.
Mr.Specter. I will come back and pick up some of the other detail.
Mr.Kellerman. Fine.
Mr.Specter. But for the sequence at the moment, as it relates to your conclusions on the shots which you have already testifiedabout——
Mr.Kellerman. OK.
Mr.Specter. I would like to develop your understanding and your observations of the four wounds on President Kennedy.
Mr.Kellerman. OK. This all transpired in the morgue of the Naval Hospital in Bethesda, sir. He had a large wound this size.
Mr.Specter. Indicating a circle with your finger of the diameter of 5 inches; would that be approximately correct?
Mr.Kellerman. Yes, circular; yes, on this part of the head.
Mr.Specter. Indicating the rear portion of the head.