Mr.Liebeler. Did she express any fears that Oswald was going to leave her and go to Cuba and abandon her.
Mrs.Ford. There was a possibility—something she would stay here or something, and for a while, and we were asking her well, how did she intend to live while he was gone, and she thought, well, she said, well, Lee said, "You have a lot of Russian friends and they will help you," while he is not here, that was the conversation.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Marina ever speak of any plans that Oswald had to hijack an airplane and go to Cuba?
Mrs.Ford. Yes; she said something like that.
Mr.Liebeler. What did she say?
Mrs.Ford. Well, that was again, I believe she was discussing with Mr. Levine at the time about this Cuba and this airplane. It is again complicated, I don't think I can say it to make sense, somehow that he had to go, had to have enough gasoline or something to go there, not to make a stop anywhere. I could not say it to make any sense. I know she was talking about it.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever talk to Robert Oswald about the assassination?
Mrs.Ford. No; we we never discussed it.
Mr.Liebeler. Robert Oswald never expressed to you any thoughts that he had on Lee Oswald's guilt or innocence?
Mrs.Ford. I understand he didn't like the cover of Life magazine and I was rather surprised because it was in my mind like it seems there is no question. Nobody knows very sure but I feel like it was Lee that did it. And he was rather angry about the statement there that it was a gun with which the President was killed, and he was rather angry about that cover, and that is why I thought that maybe he didn't believe that Lee killed him.
Mr.Liebeler. That is the only discussion you had with Robert Oswald?
Mrs.Ford. Yes; that is the only one, that is right.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you talked to Marina about any rifle practice that Lee Oswald may have engaged in?
Mrs.Ford. I didn't discuss it with him but she said that she didn't think that he went to a rifle practice. She told me that about a lot of things that people would say that it was not true, she thought that she didn't think it was true about Lee being at practice.
Mr.Liebeler. In Grand Prairie you are referring to?
Mrs.Ford. Yes; that is right.
Mr.Liebeler. In Grand Prairie?
Mrs.Ford. That is right. She didn't think he was doing that.
Mr.Liebeler. Did she say anything about him practicing with the rifle any place else?
Mrs.Ford. No; she didn't.
Mr.Liebeler. Did she mention that he had practiced with the rifle at Love Field?
Mrs.Ford. She didn't say anything.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Marina ever say anything to you that indicated she wanted to go back to Russia?
You said before that she told Lee Oswald that if he wanted to go back to Russia he could go but she wasn't going to go.
But did she ever indicate to you at any time she wanted to go back to Russia?
Mrs.Ford. She did not. Again the first call after the assassination she asked me, she said, "You know I have a visa, a pending visa, to go to Russia and if they will send it to me, I may have to go." I sort of answered her, I am pretty sure they wouldn't send her a visa now so she doesn't have to worry about it.
Mr.Liebeler. Yesterday afternoon we discussed some of these things, did we not?
Mrs.Ford. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. You mentioned the fact that Marina Oswald had told you that at one time she was thinking about committing suicide?
Mrs.Ford. Yes; she mentioned that.
Mr.Liebeler. Tell us about that.
Mrs.Ford. She said she didn't want to have it published anywhere, she is rather ashamed of it. But there was a time after all the—I think it was before she went to New Orleans and before she lived at Paine's house, that there was a time that she didn't have any friends, all the Russian friends left her, I believe De Mohrenschildts were gone during that time, and that Lee was treating her rather badly at the time and she just felt like she had no way out.
Mr.Liebeler. Did she tell you anything other than that? Did she tell you she actually tried to commit suicide or was it something she was thinking of?
Mrs.Ford. She didn't tell me the particulars but somehow Lee found out what was on her mind because he had beaten her again and told her only crazy people would consider doing a thing like that.
Mr.Liebeler. She said Lee had found out she had thought of committing suicide?
Mrs.Ford. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did she ever tell you how he found out?
Mrs.Ford. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did she indicate to you in any way that she had ever tried to do this?
Mrs.Ford. Well, she didn't tell me the particulars of it, I didn't want to, I mean I just didn't, ask her for all the details about it. But she was saying she was thinking about doing it at a certain time.
Mr.Liebeler. Well, I don't want to press you too hard about it but there is quite a difference between thinking about doing it and actually doing it.
TheChairman. She didn't hear it, she didn't hear it, did she?
Mr.Liebeler. That is right.
TheChairman. All right, that is enough.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you write to Marina at any time after the assassination?
Mrs.Ford. Did I write to her?
Mr.Liebeler. Yes.
Mrs.Ford. I sent her a Christmas card; yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Any other letters?
Mrs.Ford. No; no letters.
Mr.Liebeler. How many times have you been interviewed by the FBI, do you remember?
Mrs.Ford. FBI maybe twice. The first time, soon after the assassination; the same day that Lee Oswald was shot.
Actually we heard by radio, friends of ours had called us, anyone who knew Lee Oswald was supposed to come out and say it and call the FBI or the police. So we called the FBI and we said we did know and we came to the office ourselves and to talk about it.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you been interviewed by the Secret Service?
Mrs.Ford. No; I don't think so.
Mr.Liebeler. In our conversation yesterday we discussed your testimony andreviewed these matters. Is there anything you can remember that we discussed at that time that we have not talked about here now?
Mrs.Ford. I don't remember. I don't know.
Mr.Liebeler. Is there any other information that you have that you think the Commission would like to know about that we don't have relating to the assassination?
Mrs.Ford. I don't think there is anything of importance that you don't know.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you have any papers relating to these matters other than I think you mentioned a copy of the letter that you translated for the American Civil Liberties Union, other than that paper, do you have any papers that might relate to these questions I asked you?
Mrs.Ford. No; I might have a copy of the letter that Marina was writingfor——
Mr.Liebeler. To Governor Connally?
Mrs.Ford. To Governor Connally, and it is just rather a translation in my own handwriting.
Mr.Liebeler. On this point about the rifle practice, did Marina tell you simply that he did not practice at the range at Grand Prairie or he did not practice at any place with the rifle?
Mrs.Ford. I think she was talking about the particular range.
Mr.Liebeler. Particularly Grand Prairie?
Mrs.Ford. That is right.
Mr.Liebeler. And she didn't say anything about any other practice?
Mrs.Ford. She was telling me that people were—supposedly saw him in San Antonio and she knew for sure he wasn't there, and then she was saying they saw him at Grand Prairie practicing and she thought that he wasn't there, and then again in Ruby's place and she knew sure that Lee would never go to a place like that, things like that.
Mr.Liebeler. I have no further questions.
TheChairman. Congressman Ford, do you have some questions for Mrs. Ford?
RepresentativeFord. Mr. Chief Justice, I have one or two.
TheChairman. Proceed, please.
RepresentativeFord. Did Marina Oswald ever tell you about her schooling in Russia?
Mrs.Ford. Yes; she did. I think that would be a junior college here. She would finish 7 or 8 years, I don't know exactly, and then I think it is 4 years in a junior college which would make her in my opinion an assistant pharmacist.
RepresentativeFord. In other words, she went to theregular——
Mrs.Ford. School, yes.
RepresentativeFord. Primary school?
Mrs.Ford. That is right.
RepresentativeFord. Following that she went on to a secondary school.
Mrs.Ford. You don't have to finish primary school. Russian High School is 10 years, and if you want to specialize in some sort of assistant or technical work you would finish 7 or 8 years and then you would go 4 years after that, it is a finishing technical school, whether you would call it, where you would actually finish high school and at the same time you acquire some sort of a profession or technician, assistant to engineer or in this case assistant to a pharmacist.
RepresentativeFord. But those were the only schools that she has ever indicated to you that she attended?
Mrs.Ford. I think so, that is right.
RepresentativeFord. Did she ever indicate to you the participation that she had in the Komsomol.
Mrs.Ford. She said that she did join it and then she was kicked out or something.
RepresentativeFord. Did she ever give you any reason why she was kicked out?
Mrs.Ford. She told me that one time but I don't—I have forgotten the reason, I really don't remember.
RepresentativeFord. Was it an ordinary thing for a person to be kicked out of the Komsomol, so far as you know?
Mrs.Ford. Yes; I believe you have to be the sort, if you join it you have toperform your duty, you have to go the meetings and be sort of a leader in the community or in school or take on their work so if you don't do that, I think they just consider you not being a good young Komsomol. They wouldn't keep you there.
RepresentativeFord. Did Marina ever tell you that she did or didn't join the Communist Party in the Soviet Union?
Mrs.Ford. She couldn't join it.
RepresentativeFord. Why couldn't she join it?
Mrs.Ford. Well, not from my own experience but from what I know about it, I think you have to be over 20 years and you have to be 5 years, you have a 5-year waiting period until they check your background and see if you are good enough person to get by their standards to join the Party.
RepresentativeFord. Did Marina ever discuss with you any schools or training programs that Lee participated in while he was in the Soviet Union?
Mrs.Ford. No; she never has said anything of that sort. I think she said one time that they wanted to send him to a school which would give him a profession but it had nothing to do with military or anything like that but somehow he didn't go there. But I have forgotten what he had to be so he was just working regular labor in the factory.
RepresentativeFord. You don't recall anything, any details?
Mrs.Ford. I don't recall any details of the school.
RepresentativeFord. You don't recall any of the details of the kind of school?
Mrs.Ford. Yes; but it was some sort of a civilian, it had nothing to do with military or espionage or anything like that that I remember.
RepresentativeFord. At the time that Marina and June stayed with you and your husband in October or November of 1962, did Lee Oswald visit her at your home?
Mrs.Ford. No. He did not.
RepresentativeFord. He called her?
Mrs.Ford. He called on the telephone.
RepresentativeFord. Did anyone else visit her while she was staying at your home on this occasion?
Mrs.Ford. On this occasion, I think the only person who visited was Anna Ray to whom she was to go later after she stayed with me.
RepresentativeFord. Excuse me, I didn't hear you.
Mrs.Ford. Anna Ray, that is another Russian-born person to whom Marina would go from my house, she came to visit her.
RepresentativeFord. The individual who kept Marina after she left you?
Mrs.Ford. That is right, that is correct.
RepresentativeFord. And his name was what?
Mrs.Ford. Her name.
RepresentativeFord. What is the name?
Mrs.Ford. Anna Ray.
RepresentativeFord. That is the only person who visited Marina during this period?
Mrs.Ford. At my house; yes.
RepresentativeFord. I would like to clarify the time and the circumstances of this discussion you had with Marina about the Nixon affair.
Mrs.Ford. Yes.
RepresentativeFord. You had gone to Mr. McKenzie's office with Marina?
Mrs.Ford. That is right. I had gone translating for her; yes.
RepresentativeFord. You were in Mr. McKenzie's office?
Mrs.Ford. Yes.
RepresentativeFord. With Marina. Who else was there?
Mrs.Ford. And at that time she had a date with the FBI, and we were doing, I was translating some legal work for her about dismissing her old attorney and manager and the FBI called me to come later after we finished with that, and they told Marina why they wanted to talk with her, and McKenzie took us in that other office and he asked Marina about that, and told her that that is what she had to talk about, and she was really angry. She said the thought Robert had said, I mean she did not tell anybody about it, and she didn'twant to talk about it, and now she has to talk about it to the FBI since Robert mentioned it.
RepresentativeFord. In this meeting there was Mr. McKenzie?
Mrs.Ford. That is right. Mr. McKenzie, Marina and I.
RepresentativeFord. Just the three of you?
Mrs.Ford. Yes.
RepresentativeFord. In a room in Mr. McKenzie's office?
Mrs.Ford. Yes; in one of the rooms in his office.
RepresentativeFord. And Mr. McKenzie said what?
Mrs.Ford. Oh, I think that maybe—frankly, I don't know what he was telling her.
RepresentativeFord. Was this meeting only about the Nixon affair?
Mrs.Ford. I am very sorry, but I think that during that time when we were talking about that it was when he was talking about General Walker, that he was—it was not about Nixon that they talked about.
RepresentativeFord. This meeting with Mr. McKenzie, when Marina and you were discussingmatters——
Mrs.Ford. That was about General Walker.
I think Mr. McKenzie didn't know what they would talk about but he advised her "They will ask you if there were two guns, you tell them there was one gun that was used," he told her.
RepresentativeFord. One gun used where?
Mrs.Ford. For Walker, I mean the same one they had at the house or something, frankly this is what Ihad——
RepresentativeFord. I think you just said at the outset of this meeting the prime purpose or the principal purpose was to discuss the Walker affair.
Mrs.Ford. Yes; that is right.
RepresentativeFord. How did the Nixon affair come up?
Mrs.Ford. I just can't recollect how.
RepresentativeFord. Did McKenzie raise the question or did Marina raise it?
Mrs.Ford. How it was raised, I didn't get to discuss it with her about the particulars about it, except one time in the car, I don't remember how it came up and I was asking well how did that happen, and she was rather hesitating to talk about it, but she said, "Well, I locked him in the bathroom, and he was screaming or something, he was wanting to get out", and she tried to talk him out of it and he said, "if you are going to keep me in here just let me have a book to read", and I told her how did he get out later, she said, "Well, he rather cooled off and I talked him out of it."
RepresentativeFord. You say this conversation took place in the car?
Mrs.Ford. Yes; this conversation right now took place in the car but I don't know how it got started, I have forgotten.
RepresentativeFord. When you say it took place in the car, was it in the car going from Mr. McKenzie's to your home?
Mrs.Ford. That is right, to my home. She was staying at my place at this time.
RepresentativeFord. Did she talk rather freely about thisNixon——
Mrs.Ford. She didn't talk about it freely, I thought she was rather hesitant about going into particulars.
RepresentativeFord. Did she ever indicate why she had not discussed this incident with anybody, including the Commission?
Mrs.Ford. Well, right during that time, just before that, in the office, Mr. McKenzie, and I told her before that, "if you know anything that I think that would help either the Commission or the FBI I thought it my duty to tell them," and I told her that if she doesn't want me to say to anybody just don't talk to me about it, that is what I told her.
But because and maybe that is why she was hesitating to talk to me, Mr. McKenzie told it to her and had a written statement to her, too, if he feels there is anything he will have to say he will say it in connection with the President.
So it was said right before that, and I feel maybe that is why she was hesitating to talk to me.
RepresentativeFord. That is all.
TheChairman. Mrs. Ford, you are an American citizen now, aren't you?
Mrs.Ford. Yes.
TheChairman. How did you acquire it, by marriage to your first soldier husband?
Mrs.Ford. No. I had to apply for it.
TheChairman. Where were you naturalized?
Mrs.Ford. In Dallas, Tex.
TheChairman. In the Federal court?
Mrs.Ford. That is correct.
TheChairman. When was that about?
Mrs.Ford. I have it on my bracelet, so I will give you the correct time, I got it in 1952.
TheChairman. In 1952?
Mrs.Ford. This I got on "This is Your Life". I was on "This is Your Life".
RepresentativeFord. Mr. Chairman, I have one or two more questions.
TheChairman. Go right ahead.
RepresentativeFord. I wish you could clarify, if you can, the comment you made about Marina mentioning two guns.
Mrs.Ford. She did not mention two guns ever to me or anything like that. But I don't know how or why he advised her to say that at all, I don't know, it was not clear to me.
RepresentativeFord. When you say he, was that Mr. McKenzie?
Mrs.Ford. That is right, because the only reason—the only thing I remember about Marina was saying that Lee had laughed about the attempt to kill General Walker, that he said that they were even too stupid to find out what gun was used to kill him because it was written up a different type of gun was used other than the one really used by Lee.
RepresentativeFord. Marina said that?
Mrs.Ford. That is right. Lee had commented on that they were not even smart enough to identify the gun by a bullet.
RepresentativeFord. When did Marina say Lee said that?
Mrs.Ford. Well, soon after he—maybe that evening or the next day but I mean after he had attempted to shoot the General.
RepresentativeFord. After he had attempted to shoot General Walker?
Mrs.Ford. That is right. And the bullet was found in the room and I suppose by the bullet they had tried to identify the gun or whatever he used to shoot him and it was identified wrong.
It was not, I don't know what kind of gun he used, frankly, I don't know, but he said, he just made a comment, they weren't even smart enough to identify the gun by the bullet.
RepresentativeFord. Lee said that to Marina?
Mrs.Ford. To Marina, that is right.
RepresentativeFord. Right after the incident?
Mrs.Ford. Right after the incident, that is correct.
RepresentativeFord. And Marina told Mr. McKenzie that?
Mrs.Ford. I don't know.
RepresentativeFord. You don't know?
Mrs.Ford. But I think right after that it was in the papers that a different type of gun was used, and to shoot the President was different again, there were supposedly two guns, you see, so maybe that is why he advised her, that he had only one gun. I really don't know how this came out.
TheChairman. That is all. Thank you very much for coming, you have been very helpful.
Mrs.Ford. I hope so. I frankly wish I had questioned her more but I didn't feel it was my duty, but I wanted to tell you what she said to me.
TheChairman. We will take a short recess.
(Short recess.)
TheChairman. Mr. Ford, you were given a copy of this statement were you?
Mr.Ford. Yes, sir.
TheChairman. As to the purpose so you understand what we are doing here today?
Mr.Ford. Yes, sir.
TheChairman. Will you please rise. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Ford. I do.
TheChairman. Be seated please and Mr. Liebeler will ask the questions.
Mr.Liebeler. Will you state your name, sir?
Mr.Ford. Declan P. Ford.
Mr.Liebeler. Where do you live?
Mr.Ford. Dallas, Tex.
Mr.Liebeler. What is your employment?
Mr.Ford. I am a consulting geologist.
Mr.Liebeler. Are you independently employed?
Mr.Ford. Yes; I am self-employed.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you give us a brief statement of your educational background?
Mr.Ford. I was graduated from the University of California at Los Angeles in 1948, with a Bachelor of Arts degree in Geology, and was first employed by Tidewater Associated Oil Co. as a geologist, later with the Continental Oil Co. as a geologist, and then later with DeGollyer McNaughton, a consulting firm in Dallas, Tex., until 1962, October. I went into business for myself as a consulting geologist. All this time has been in exploration, development of oil and gas fields both in the United States and foreign countries.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you been employed in and about the Fort Worth and Dallas area ever since you graduated from college?
Mr.Ford. No; I have only been in the Dallas area since January 1960.
Mr.Liebeler. Your wife's name is Katherine Ford?
Mr.Ford. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. When were you married?
Mr.Ford. We were married July 1960. July 2.
Mr.Liebeler. Were you married at any time prior to that?
Mr.Ford. No; I was not.
TheChairman. '62, did you say?
Mr.Ford. 1960.
Mr.Liebeler. Are you acquainted with Jack Ruby?
Mr.Ford. No; I am not.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know of any connection between Lee Oswald and Jack Ruby?
Mr.Ford. No; I don't.
Mr.Liebeler. Directly or indirectly?
Mr.Ford. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know Mr. John M. Grizzaffi?
Mr.Ford. Yes; I knew him.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know whether or not he is a friend or associate of Jack Ruby's?
Mr.Ford. I don't know. I have heard that he knows Jack Ruby, I don't know how well he knows him.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know whether Mr. Grizzaffi had any contact with the Oswalds or knew them?
Mr.Ford. None that I knew of.
Mr.Liebeler. When did you first meet the Oswalds?
Mr.Ford. In 1962, and I think it was in August of 1962, I am not sure of the exact date.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you tell us the circumstances of the meeting?
Mr.Ford. I was a guest at the house of some friends, the Mellers, and the Oswalds had been there for lunch, and we came over after lunch to have cocktails and to meet Lee and Marina Oswald.
Mr.Liebeler. Who was there at that time?
Mr.Ford. Mr. Meller and his wife, Anna Meller, George Bouhe, my wife and myself, Marina and Lee Oswald, and I can't remember for sure if anybodyelse. It seems to me there was somebody else there but I can't remember who it was. Someone else may have come in later or something like that.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you mention George Bouhe as being there?
Mr.Ford. Yes; George Bouhe was there.
Mr.Liebeler. You mentioned him?
Mr.Ford. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Who invited you to that luncheon?
Mr.Ford. Mrs. Meller.
Mr.Liebeler. Had you heard of the Oswalds prior to that time?
Mr.Ford. Yes; I had.
Mr.Liebeler. How?
Mr.Ford. I first heard of them, I think, from either George Bouhe or maybe from Max Clark who lives in Fort Worth but I think it was George Bouhe. He had mentioned the name of Lee Oswald and briefly described his history, his story of his going to Russia, attempting to give up his American citizenship, and later returning from Russia with a Russian wife and child, and living in Fort Worth, and we were, my wife is Russian and we were interested in meeting her. George Bouhe, I think, at the time was attempting to help Lee Oswald find employment.
Mr.Liebeler. When you say "her" in that sentence you are referring to Mrs. Marina Oswald?
Mr.Ford. Yes; Marina Oswald.
Mr.Liebeler. Is that the reason why basically you went to the lunch at the Mellers to meet Lee and Marina Oswald?
Mr.Ford. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Was there any conversation with the Oswalds at that time?
Mr.Ford. There was, most of the conversation was in Russian which I don't understand. I had very little conversation with Lee himself because he spoke Russian most of the time that afternoon and Marina didn't speak any English at all.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you have any conversations in English with Oswald about living conditions in Russia, about his expenses in Russia?
Mr.Ford. A little bit. He showed me pictures of people that he had worked with in Russia. I believe they were on a picnic together, a group of men, and various other pictures of places he had seen in Minsk, and he briefly described the living conditions in Russia, I guess the conditions under which he had lived in Russia, the small room they had to live in, and he said something about how much money he made there. I don't remember how much it was though.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you what kind of a job he had?
Mr.Ford. No, he didn't. I think George Bouhe told me he had been a sheet metal worker or something similar to that.
Mr.Liebeler. In Minsk?
Mr.Ford. In Minsk, yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Oswald compare to you the amount of money that he was paid with the amount of money that other workers in the plant were paid?
Mr.Ford. No; he said nothing about it.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he indicate in any way any source of income other than from his job?
Mr.Ford. None.
Mr.Liebeler. At any time did he do that?
Mr.Ford. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever learn of anything like that?
Mr.Ford. No; I have heard people speak of it but I have never heard him or anybody that knew him say he had another source of income.
Mr.Liebeler. You have heard people speak of it when, since the assassination?
Mr.Ford. Since the assassination.
Mr.Liebeler. But you heard nothing of it prior to the assassination?
Mr.Ford. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you get any impressions of Oswald at this first meeting?
Mr.Ford. I had an impression that he was not the type of person I could make friends with very easily. He didn't impress me as being friendly to meas a person. He was kind of closed up within himself. And it seemed to me he preferred to speak in Russian rather than in English. He wanted to practice speaking Russian with the Russian speaking people rather than talking to me.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Mrs. Oswald have any bruises on her at that time?
Mr.Ford. Yes, she did. On her face.
Mr.Liebeler. On her face. Was there any conversation about that?
Mr.Ford. Not directly with me. My wife told me that Mrs. Oswald told her it was due to some accident of running into a door at nighttime while she was getting up to see what—the baby crying, something like that.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you accept that explanation?
Mr.Ford. I didn't—well, really, I didn't accept it. It just didn't make much sense but it didn't make an impression one way or the other to me. I frankly at the time thought of a standard cartoon joke of a kid explaining his black eye, by a kid explaining he ran into a doorknob.
Mr.Liebeler. Was there anything that happened at this first luncheon that impressed you about Oswald or his attitude, in any way that you think the Commission should know about?
Mr.Ford. Very little. Except he seemed reserved, and I would call excessively polite, and the fact I don't think he made any effort to make friends with the other people.
Mr.Liebeler. When was the next time that you had any contact with Oswald?
Mr.Ford. The next time I saw him was the night I drove Marina from our house to another friend's house, Mr. Frank Ray's house. She had been staying at our house for about a week and she had been separated from him.
I had been out of town and when I came home she was invited to stay over at Mr. Ray's house and I took her over there, I think it was on a Friday evening.
Lee Oswald called and wanted to talk to Marina and wanted then to come out and see her. Mr. Ray told him if he would get on the bus and come to the bus stop nearest their home that he would pick him up, and I went with Mr. Ray to pick up Lee Oswald at the bus stop.
We went back to Mr. Ray's home, and had a short conversation with Lee Oswald but he said he wanted to talk to Marina, and he and Marina went into another room. I don't know exactly how long it was but we sat down and had one or two drinks, and then Lee came back in and said he and his wife were going to have a reconciliation and she wanted to go home with him that evening. Mr. Ray offered to drive them back to their place in Oak Cliff, and then I went home.
Mr.Liebeler. You were out of town throughout the entire time that Marina stayed with your wife?
Mr.Ford. Except for the last night. She stayed there one more night after I came home.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you form any impression on Oswald that evening different from the one that you originally had of him?
Mr.Ford. Only it confirmed my original thought. I remember one instance. Frank asked him where he was working and he would never identify the place he was working. He would hedge, I forget his exact words, but he mentioned that he was working, I think in a printing shop, either printing or photographic developing shop, and Mr. Ray asked him the name of the place, I think, twice, and he avoided answering. He would just start talking about something completely different.
In other words, when he didn't want to answer a question he would either change the subject or just start talking to somebody else.
Mr.Liebeler. You had no independent knowledge of where he was working at that time?
Mr.Ford. I didn't know the name. I had heard he was employed in this shop that I think was a printing and photographic developing shop.
Mr.Liebeler. You didn't have anything to do with his getting that job?
Mr.Ford. No, I didn't.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know whether your friend did?
Mr.Ford. I am not sure. I think either George Bouhe or maybe TheoMeller may have introduced him to the owner of the shop but I am not sure about it.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you have any conversations with either Mr. Meller or Mr. Bouhe about this?
Mr.Ford. I have had conversations with them, but it was prior to this night when Lee came to make a reconciliation with his wife.
Mr.Liebeler. Did they tell you that they had anything to do with his getting this job?
Mr.Ford. I don't specifically remember that they said so. I either assumed this or something they said led me to believe it.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you have any conversations with the Rays that evening while you were taking Marina over there about the difficulties that the Oswalds had in their marriage?
Let's expand the question. Think about that, and also think about any conversations that you may have had with your wife about that after you went back, and tell us the conversations that you had with anybody at that time about the incidents of the separation, what caused it and what was the trouble between the Oswalds?
Mr.Ford. I don't believe I had any discussion with either Mr. or Mrs. Ray about specifically the difficulties in their marriage between Marina and Lee Oswald.
The only thing I remember is frankly saying something to the effect, well, he is really a screwy nut, or something, he can't find ways to work, something to that effect.
I have not discussed their personal problems. But I have discussed it with my wife about it prior to that and after that and also after the assassination and it was my understanding when she left her husband it was because he had beat her up.
Mr.Liebeler. Did anybody tell you any of the details about why he had done that or what the cause of the trouble was?
Mr.Ford. Not at the time. My wife didn't tell me anything about that. Again, after the assassination, she told me more about it, but I don't know if Marina had mentioned this prior to the assassination, the year before that when she stayed at our house, or whether she mentioned it after the assassination, I don't know the exact time that these details were brought out.
My wife did mention that perhaps Marina antagonized him by arguing with him, talking back to him, or something like that whereas if she just learned to be quiet when he said something he might not have hit her.
Mr.Liebeler. But you don't recall whether that was developed during or at the time or later on?
Mr.Ford. I don't remember whether she told me that before the assassination or not. I know we have talked about it since the assassination.
Mr.Liebeler. When was the next contact that you had with the Oswalds?
Mr.Ford. The next contact was after Christmas 1962. Between Christmas and New Year's we gave a cocktail party and some friends of ours, George De Mohrenschildt and his wife were invited and later called my wife and asked her if it would be all right to bring Lee and Marina to the party and my wife said sure, bring them along or might have asked me if it was all right to bring them along and I said sure. It was prior to December 28.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Oswald come with De Mohrenschildt?
Mr.Ford. Yes, he came with De Mohrenschildt.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you know anything about the relations between Oswald and the De Mohrenschildts?
Mr.Ford. I knew they were friends, no more than that. How often they saw each other or what they talked about or anything they talked about I don't know.
Mr.Liebeler. How old are the De Mohrenschildts?
Mr.Ford. I guess George De Mohrenschildt is between 50 and 55 years old.
Mr.Liebeler. Did it seem curious to you that a man that age would be close to Lee Oswald who was around 21 or 22 at that particular time?
Mr.Ford. Not in the particular case.
Mr.Liebeler. Why do you say that?
Mr.Ford. Well, George De Mohrenschildt has a reputation for being a left-wing enthusiast or something, I don't mean a member of the Communist Party, but he is, I have heard other people say he has expounded the ideals of Marxism and since Lee Oswald was supposedly a Marxist or a Communist they would agree on their political views.
Again, I have never heard George De Mohrenschildt expound on any of these ideas. I have met him socially several times and he is very pleasant, a big, good looking man, but other than their agreement on what is the ideal political system, I can't think of anything else they would have in common.
Mr.Liebeler. Your knowledge of De Mohrenschildt's political views are hearsay?
Mr.Ford. All of it is hearsay.
Mr.Liebeler. How did you learn about Oswald's political views?
Mr.Ford. Also hearsay, from other people.
Mr.Liebeler. Can you tell us who told you about it?
Mr.Ford. I can't remember anybody, any specific statement from anybody, but I have discussed it with people like both my wife and George Bouhe and I don't remember if I discussed it with the Mellers or not but it seems I have heard this from several different people about just about everybody who knew them, the Oswalds, this was one of the things that people were leary about in dealing with him was his reputation for being a Communist.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he have that reputation in the community?
Mr.Ford. Yes, I think he had that reputation of either—not being a member, say, of the Communist Party, but his political ideas were either Marxist or Communist or something he had derived from reading Karl Marx, I suppose.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know whether he expressed any extreme antagonism or antagonism of any sort toward the Government of the United States?
Mr.Ford. The only occasion I know of was the first time I met him, he did blame the U.S. Embassy for delaying his exit, the exit of he and his wife from Russia.
He did state if it had not been for their delaying the exit visa that his daughter would have been born in the United States rather than Russia.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he say anything more about that, do you remember any more in detail?
Mr.Ford. Not that I heard of or can remember.
RepresentativeFord. Did he think the birth of his daughter in Russia rather than in the United States was something important, did it appear that way?
Mr.Ford. I don't know how important he thought it was. It actually started as a joke. We also had a baby born shortly before that and I said, "Pretty little Russian girl" or something like that, and he made a statement, "She is just as much a Texan as your son," and then went on to explain that if the U.S. Embassy had acted more quickly that he and Marina could have left Russia and that June, the daughter, would have been born in the United States.
I don't know whether he placed any great importance on it or not.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Oswald ever appear to you to have any kind of a sense of humor?
Mr.Ford. None whatsoever.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he say anything about the attitude the Russian authorities took when he wanted to come back to the United States and bring his wife back with him?
Mr.Ford. He never said anything to me. I think he may have while he was talking Russian with these other people. He may have mentioned the fact that it was easier, they got their visa for he and his wife from the Russian authorities, the delay came from the American authorities, but I don't specifically know whether it did. He said these things, again it would be hearsay, again I would have heard it from my wife or somebody else who could speak Russian who had either discussed it with him or was present when he was discussing it with somebody else.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever hear Oswald or hear of Oswald making any remarks that would indicate a hostility toward President Kennedy?
Mr.Ford. No; never did.
Mr.Liebeler. What about Governor Connally?
Mr.Ford. Never heard that either, until after the assassination. I saw newspaper copies of a letter he wrote to Governor Connally when Governor Connally was Secretary of the Navy.
Mr.Liebeler. I would limit my question to before the assassination?
Mr.Ford. Before the assassination, no.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you hear anything about his military career prior to the assassination?
Mr.Ford. No; in fact I had assumed prior to the assassination that he had had an honorable discharge from the Marine Corps.
Mr.Liebeler. You never had any discussions with him about that or heard anybody discussing it?
Mr.Ford. He said something the first time I met him, I can't specifically remember what it was, but I got the impression that, at that time that he had been a Marine Corps guard at the U.S. Embassy in Russia and I can't remember whether he said this or somebody else mentioned it or whether I just assumed it on my own.
So I know my first idea was this was the way he had gotten to Russia. I later learned he had gone on his own.
Mr.Liebeler. But you don't remember any specific discussion with him about this question?
Mr.Ford. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you know where Oswald was living during this period that his wife was separated from him and living with you and Mrs. Meller?
Mr.Ford. I knew he had an apartment in this Oak Cliff section of Dallas. I don't remember the exact address. I don't know whether he stayed there while Marina was in our house or not.
Mr.Liebeler. You had no knowledge where he lived prior to the time that he took the apartment in Oak Cliff, did you?
Mr.Ford. Well, I think he lived in Fort Worth. I am not absolutely sure. I believe this apartment in Oak Cliff was the first place he lived in Dallas, but I am not absolutely sure about it.
Mr.Liebeler. You had never talked to him about it?
Mr.Ford. No; never.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever visit the apartment?
Mr.Ford. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, had we gotten to the Christmas party?
Mr.Ford. You asked me about it.
Mr.Liebeler. Tell us as best as you can recall the events of that period. I think you said there was a party at your house on the 28th of December.
Mr.Ford. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Tell me if there were parties or get-togethers at which you were present or of which you knew at other homes during that period.
Mr.Ford. Well, there were, but I don't remember the specific dates that they were. I think they were after the party at our house. There was a party at George Bouhe's home, an apartment, during that period. I think it was a few days after that, right in the period of New Year's Eve, and I went to several celebrations.
I would hate to try to recall exactly when each one of them was and who was there.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember going to George Bouhe's apartment?
Mr.Ford. Yes; I remember going there but I don't remember the exact date that it was.
Mr.Liebeler. Was Oswald at that meeting?
Mr.Ford. No; he was not.
Mr.Liebeler. Was there any discussion of Oswald at that time?
Mr.Ford. Not that I can remember.
Mr.Liebeler. Were there any other parties that you attended during that period?
Mr.Ford. I don't remember any formal parties. I stopped and had drinks with a lot of people.
Mr.Liebeler. Specifically, was there a get-together at your home the night after the party that you had on the 28th of December?
Mr.Ford. Not a formal party, just a group of people happened to show up and we started another party.
Mr.Liebeler. Who was there?
Mr.Ford. Mr. and Mrs. Sullivan, friends of ours from New Orleans, and Mr. and Mrs. Harris who were from Georgetown, Tex., and another Mr. and Mrs. Ray, not the ones who live in Dallas, but these live in Paris, Tex.
Mr.Liebeler. Would that be Mr. and Mrs. Thomas Ray?
Mr.Ford. Thomas Ray.
Mr.Liebeler. Thomas Ray. And yourself and your wife?
Mr.Ford. Right.
Mr.Liebeler. Anybody else?
Mr.Ford. Right now I can't remember anybody else who came in. It was not a formal gathering, just people happened to stop in and we started having a party.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you have any recollection of any discussion of Oswald at that time?
Mr.Ford. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember at any time having any discussion with any of your Russian friends on the question of whether or not Oswald was a Russian agent?
Mr.Ford. Prior to the assassination?
Mr.Liebeler. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ford. No; I don't remember prior to the assassination. There may have been some but I don't remember any.
Mr.Liebeler. At the party at your home on the 28th of December, did you have any conversation with Oswald?
Mr.Ford. Said "hello, how are you," to he and Marina, and after that, I can't remember Oswald talking to anybody there except one guest, a Japanese girl, Yaeko, I forget her last name; my wife will remember.
As nearly as I can remember she was the only person in the whole party that he ever bothered to talk to.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember whether Oswald was drinking that evening?
Mr.Ford. I fixed one drink for him, in a little liqueur glass full of liqueur. As far as I remember he never touched it.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever observe Oswald smoking?
Mr.Ford. No.
Mr.Liebeler. And you don't remember any discussion about Oswald after he left that evening?
Mr.Ford. No; after he left that evening, I don't recall any discussion of him.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever have any conversations with De Mohrenschildt about Oswald?
Mr.Ford. I don't remember any specific conversations with George De Mohrenschildt. I may have.
Mr.Liebeler. What was your impression of Oswald at this time as far as his relations with the other members of the Russian community were concerned, and generally?
Mr.Ford. My impression was that he didn't want his wife to associate with them, and that he resented any aid or help people tried to give either he or his wife. I might say, I know, I have heard other Russian people there, for example, would take Marina to a grocery store and buy a load of groceries for her and take her back, and one girl that went by and found the baby had a fever and nobody was taking it to the hospital and she took Marina and the baby to the hospital for some medical treatment for it, and I had the impression that Lee Oswald resented this.
Mr.Liebeler. You gained that impression from conversations that you had?
Mr.Ford. From conversations with other people, yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Is thereany——
Mr.Ford. I was also going tosay——
Mr.Liebeler. Pardon me.
Mr.Ford. I think during the period of 1962 that George Bouhe, for example, thought it would be helpful for Marina to learn English and he tried to encourageher to learn English and I had heard later that Lee Oswald resented this, he didn't want her to learn English.
Mr.Liebeler. When did you hear that?
Mr.Ford. That was back in 1962. I can't remember the specific time,but——
Mr.Liebeler. Did you have any conversation with Mr. and Mrs. Harris at the party at your place on the 28th of December?
Mr.Ford. Oh, yes; I had conversations with them.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you hear of an incident where Mrs. Harris was trying to teach English to Marina at the party and certain American customs and Oswald objected to it?
Mr.Ford. I didn't observe it. She may have tried to teach her some American customs. I don't remember hearing Oswald say anything about it, Lee Oswald say anything about it.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Mrs. Harris say anything about it to you?
Mr.Ford. Not that I can remember.
Mr.Liebeler. So you have no knowledge of that incident if it occurred at all?
Mr.Ford. No. It seems to me I have heard somebody else mention this but I did not see it or hear anything myself.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, after the party on the 28th of December that was held at your house, when was the next contact that you had with either one of the Oswalds?
Mr.Ford. Well, I heard a few times or my wife had heard something about Marina living in Irving, but never actually saw either one of them until after the assassination. Then the first contact we had with Marina was, I believe, my wife tried to get in touch with her, either invite her to come to my house or to tell her that once things had been cleared up, the investigation had been cleared up, to feel free to come by, and let her know she still had friends.
Mr.Liebeler. Did anybody suggest to you shortly after the assassination that Marina should come and live with you?
Mr.Ford. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever express any hesitancy to anyone in connection with any suggestion that Marina should come and live with you?
Mr.Ford. I don't remember ever expressing it. If somebody had mentioned it the afternoon or next day after the assassination I probably would have been a little bit hesitant about it. But I don't remember saying anything to anybody.
Mr.Liebeler. Did there come a time when Marina moved into your home after the assassination?
Mr.Ford. Yes; but this was in February of this year.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you express any hesitancy at that time?
Mr.Ford. No.
Mr.Liebeler. And you don't recall expressing any immediately after the assassination or before?
Mr.Ford. No. I don't remember talking to anybody at all about it. I mean the first few days immediately after the assassination, I don't recall saying anything to anybody about it, where she was going to live at my house or anybody else's.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever have any conversations with Mr. Jim Martin on that subject?
Mr.Ford. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Now prior to the time that Marina came to live in your home, your wife has testified she talked to Marina on the telephone several times and that Marina came to visit on two or three occasions, two occasions, I believe, at your home.
Mr.Ford. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you talk to your wife about what Marina had said during your wife's visits with Marina?
Mr.Ford. When she came to visit us in our home?
Mr.Liebeler. Yes.
Mr.Ford. I talked to her about what she had talked to Marina, and I couldn't carry on much of a conversation with Marina myself because she didn't speakmuch English but I would ask my wife, and my wife would tell me what she had said.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember whether there was any discussion about Marina's testimony before this Commission, either before she went to Washington or after she came back?
Mr.Ford. No; not—my wife never told me before she came to Washington to testify before the Commission. After she came back, I did overhear some conversation between Marina, my wife, and Mr. William M. McKenzie regarding the testimony given to the Commission.
Mr.Liebeler. Can you tell us what that was to the best of your recollection?
Let me ask you this: Where did this occur?
Mr.Ford. I think it was in Mr. McKenzie's office, it may have been either in his office or my home but I think it was in his office, and I believe the FBI had been questioning her this afternoon, I am not sure of the date, and I came back later to pick up my wife and Marina and in my presence Mr. McKenzie asked my wife to ask Marina in Russian if she had told the Commission this Nixon story. I don't know the details of the story, but something regarding the threat to Mr. Nixon.
And I think Marina, again through my wife, told Mr. McKenzie that she had not mentioned this to the Commission. But that she had mentioned it to the FBI, and she had mentioned it, I believe to the FBI prior to the Commission hearing.
Mr.Liebeler. Who told you that?
Mr.Ford. Well, I was standing there while Mr. McKenzie was talking to Marina using my wife as a translator.