Mr.Ball. You figured it was who?
Mr.Frazier. I figured it was somebody shooting at President Kennedy because people were running and hollering so I just stood still. I have always been taught when something like that happened or anywhere as far as that it is always best to stand still because if you run that makes you look guilty sure enough.
Mr.Ball. Now, then, did you have any impression at that time as to the direction from which the sound came?
Mr.Frazier. Well, to be frank with you I thought it come from down there, you know, where that underpass is. There is a series, quite a few number, of them railroad tracks running together and from where I was standing it sounded like it was coming from down the railroad tracks there.
Mr.Ball. Were you able to see the President, could you still see the President's car when you heard the first sound?
Mr.Frazier. No, sir; I couldn't. From there, you know, people were standing out there on the curb, you see, and you know it drops, you know the ground drops, off there as you go down toward that underpass and I couldn't see any of it because people were standing up there in my way, but however, when he did turn that corner there, there wasn't anybody standing there in the street and you could see good there, but after you got on past down there you couldn't see anything.
Mr.Ball. You didn't see the President's car at the time you heard the sound?
Mr.Frazier. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr.Ball. But you stood right there, did you?
Mr.Frazier. Right. Stood right where I was.
Mr.Ball. And Mr. Shelley was still standing there?
Mr.Frazier. Right.
Mr.Ball. And also Billy Lovelady?
Mr.Frazier. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. The three of you didn't go any place?
Mr.Frazier. I believe Billy and them walked down toward that direction but I didn't. I just stood where I was. I hadn't moved at all.
Mr.Ball. Did you see anybody after that come into the Building while you were there?
Mr.Frazier. You mean somebody other that didn't work there?
Mr.Ball. A police officer.
Mr.Frazier. No, sir; I stood there a few minutes, you know, and some people who worked there; you know normally started to go back into the Building because a lot of us didn't eat our lunch, and so we started back into the Building and it wasn't but just a few minutes that there were a lot of police officers and so forth all over the Building there.
Mr.Ball. Then you went back into the Building, did you?
Mr.Frazier. Right.
Mr.Ball. And before you went back into the Building no police officer came up the steps and into the building?
Mr.Frazier. Not that I know. They could walk by the way and I was standing there talking to somebody else and didn't see it.
Mr.Ball. Did anybody say anything about what had happened, did you hear anybody say anything about the President had been shot?
Mr.Frazier. Yes, sir; right before I went back, some girl who had walked down a little bit further where I was standing on the steps, and somebody come back and said somebody had shot President Kennedy.
Mr.Ball. Do you know who it was who told you that?
Mr.Frazier. Sir?
Mr.Ball. Do you know who the girl was who told you that?
Mr.Frazier. She didn't tell me right directly but she just came back and more or less in a low kind of hollering she just told several people.
Mr.Ball. Then you went back into the Building, did you?
Mr.Frazier. Right.
Mr.Ball. And police officers came in there?
Mr.Frazier. Yes, sir; I would say by the time, you know some of us went back in, and it wasn't just a few minutes, I say there were several.
Mr.Ball. Did you stay on the first floor?
Mr.Frazier. Well, stayed on the first floor there for a few minutes and I hadn't eaten my lunch so I had my lunch down there in the basement and I went down there to get my lunch and eat it and I walked back up on the first floor there.
Mr.Ball. When you came back into the Building, you came in the front door, didn't you?
Mr.Frazier. Right.
Mr.Ball. Did you go down to the basement immediately or did you stand around on the first floor?
Mr.Frazier. No, sir; I stood around for several minutes there, you know, and then, you know, eventually the ones who hadn't eaten their lunch, some of them had taken their lunch outside.
Mr.Ball. Did other people go downstairs with you?
Mr.Frazier. No, sir; they didn't.
Mr.Ball. You went down alone, did you?
Mr.Frazier. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did you go at any time in the back end of the Building back near the door to the loading dock?
Mr.Frazier. No, sir; I never did.
Mr.Ball. Perhaps I had better ask you to point out on the map here where you were. Come over here, please.
Mr.Frazier. O.K.
Mr.Ball. You came in back into the Building?
Mr.Frazier. Right.
Mr.Ball. Tell us where you went and what you did?
Mr.Frazier. Well, you know like I said I come back through here [indicating on Commission Exhibit No. 362, diagram of first floor].
Mr.Ball. By "coming back through here," you mean you came down the hallway and into the entrance into the first floor warehouse?
Mr.Frazier. Right, and you come by Mr. Shelley's office, that is his counter right here, after you get in, you get off here, that is his office, anyway, right out, I come out around here, you know where several of the people walked around here.
Mr.Ball. That is in the bin area?
Mr.Frazier. No, sir; the bins don't start automatically right up in here. I say, there is a little bit more or less, like more or less a hall through here, but anyway, you know, I say, you have two or three bins.
Mr.Ball. Through here you mean there is sort of a hall after you enter into the warehouse?
Mr.Frazier. Right.
Mr.Ball. Right.
Mr.Frazier. From it, after you come past this counter you have several rows of bins coming this way, but, I say, right after you get past, say, this last bin right here running that way, right out this general area right here you have a telephone and everything out in here.
Mr.Ball. Well, you indicated that everything that would be beyond this line, the bin lines, would be clear on the first floor.
Mr.Frazier. Right, beyond here.
Mr.Ball. Did you ever go into that area where it was clear before you went downstairs?
From the time you came back into the room, did you go down into this area which was clear before you went downstairs?
Mr.Frazier. No, sir; I didn't go in here. I was right over right close to Mr. Shelley's office right around here and sit around and talked with some guys around there.
Mr.Ball. You are indicating around Mr. Shelley's office?
Mr.Frazier. Yes, sir; pretty close right there, like I say more or less right out over in here we havea——
Mr.Ball. Put a mark there.
Mr.Frazier. Let'ssee——
Mr.Ball. Put a circle to show the general area where you and the rest of them stood around and talked.
Mr.Frazier. Right in there is right around near the telephone and we were just right around in there.
Mr.Ball. Where did you go?
Mr.Frazier. We left, you know, after we stood and talked with some guys there, some of them had eaten and some of them didn't, some of them had sandwiches in their hands, so naturally I felt like eating and I walked around the bin and walked down the steps there.
Mr.Ball. Got your lunch?
Mr.Frazier. Right.
Mr.Ball. Come back up?
Mr.Frazier. No, sir; I didn't come back up. I was sitting eating my lunch. I looked at my watch and didn't have but 10 minutes, so I naturally ate faster than normal, so I was eating a couple of sandwiches, and eat an apple or something and come right back up and the guys, the people who worked there, standing around on the first floor, some of them eating their lunches and others merely talking.
Mr.Ball. You never went back to work?
Mr.Frazier. No, sir; we didn't. I didn't work any more that day.
Mr.Ball. You stayed there on the job until you were told to go home?
Mr.Frazier. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. What time did they tell you to go home?
Mr.Frazier. It was between 1 and 2 there sometime, roughly, I don't know what time it was.
Mr.Ball. Had the police officers come in there and talked to you?
Mr.Frazier. Yes, sir; they come in and talked to all of us. They asked us to show our proper identification, and then they had us to write our name down and who to get in touch with if they wanted to see us.
Mr.Ball. Did they ask you where you had been at the time the President passed?
Mr.Frazier. Yes, sir; they had. I told them I was out on the steps there.
Mr.Ball. Asked you who you were with?
Mr.Frazier. Yes, sir; I told them and naturally Mr. Shelley and Billy vouched for me and so they didn't think anything about it.
Mr.Ball. Did you hear anybody around there asking for Lee Oswald?
Mr.Frazier. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr.Ball. At any time before you went home, did you hear anybody ask for Lee?
Mr.Frazier. No, sir; I don't believe they did, because they, you know, like one man showed us, we had to give proper identification and after we passed him he told us to walk on then to the next man, and we, you know, put down proper information where he could be found if they wanted to see you and talk to you any more, and then we went on up to a little bit more to the front entrance more toward Mr. Shelley's office there with another man and stood there for a little while and told us all that was there could go ahead and go home.
Mr.Ball. Then you went on home?
Mr.Frazier. Right.
RepresentativeFord. Did all this occur after you had finished your lunch?
Mr.Frazier. Yes, sir; it did.
RepresentativeFord. Did it ever occur to you at any time following the shooting there was something connecting the shooting with Lee Oswald and the package?
Mr.Frazier. Well, I say not particularly not at that time, I didn't think anything about it because, to be frank with you, some were over here, one or two would be over here talking and just strung out here, on the first floor and I didn't think anything about it. I see some of the guys, they go out for lunch and they come back 12:45 so I didn't know whether he had went out to lunch or not. Some of them do every week.
RepresentativeFord. Did any of the policemen interfere with your efforts to go into the Building and eventually down into the basement where you had your lunch?
Mr.Frazier. No, sir; they didn't.
Mr.Ball. Before you left, did you look for Oswald to see about taking him home?
Mr.Frazier. No; I didn't, sir.
Mr.Ball. Was there some reason why you didn't?
Mr.Frazier. Yes, sir; I did. Because like I told you, he was going home to get the curtain rods and I asked him at the time, the same time, it would be about that, would he be going home with me Friday afternoon like he had been doing, he said no. So naturally when they let us go I took on off because I thought maybe they had already dismissed him and he went on home.
Mr.Ball. When you talked to him on Thursday and he told you he wouldn't be going home on Friday, did he tell you what he was going to do, why he wasn't going to go home?
Mr.Frazier. No, sir; he didn't.
Mr.Ball. Did you talk to him again on Friday morning as to whether or not he had changed his mind? Did you ask him whether or not you could pick him up at the end of the day?
Mr.Frazier. To be frank with you, Mr. Ball, I am not sure.
Mr.Ball. Whether you did or not.
Did anybody tell you that Lee Oswald was missing before you went home?
Mr.Frazier. No, sir; they didn't.
RepresentativeFord. Could you describe for the Commission where you went on the sixth floor that morning in relationship to the overall picture of the sixth floor?
Mr.Frazier. Yes, sir; I could.
RepresentativeFord. Would you do so, please?
Mr.Frazier. Yes, sir.
Do you have a piece of paper I can draw? [Witness draws diagram on piece of paper.]
Let's see, right here is your two elevator shafts we have. That morning I used this one over here.
RepresentativeFord. Would you mark Houston, Elm and the other streets?
Mr.Frazier. This is Houston, this is Elm right out here. Anyway, like I said, I won't draw these buildings. I have these two elevator shafts here. Quickly you come off these elevator shafts right here, we have skids with books on them, and you see right on those skids you would have some shelves right about like this and so I merely walked over to the elevator with the two-wheeler we use on the dock and walked somewhere say maybe halfway, not quite halfway, there and put up some books, put them down on the floor there, on the floor level and so I just turned around and come back to the elevator and come on down, and went about my business. He had me putting up some books there on the shelves.
RepresentativeFord. From this point here could you see the windows or the area at the corner of Houston and Elm in the Building?
Mr.Frazier. Yes, sir; you could. I say you could look down and see this area back over here.
RepresentativeFord. Did you look over there?
Mr.Frazier. No, sir; I didn't.
Right on down there, I knew where the books went so normally I didn't have to look around. I say, I was going to get through, if you are not familiar with the books and so forth it would take you a little longer to find and put them up. But if you know where they go you can put them up very quickly.
So I knew this book went in the shelf because this book we don't handle very many of them and that is where I put books you don't handle very many, put them in the shelf.
So I put the books in the shelf and turned around and put them in the elevator and come on down.
Mr.Ball. Can I have this marked as Commission Exhibit 368, the diagram just drawn by the witness to illustrate his work on the sixth floor?
TheChairman. It may be marked.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 368, for identification.)
Mr.Ball. I have here Commission's 163, a gray blue jacket. Do you recognize this jacket?
Mr.Frazier. No, sir; I don't.
Mr.Ball. Did you ever see Lee Oswald wear this jacket?
Mr.Frazier. No, sir; I don't believe I have.
Mr.Ball. Commission Exhibit No. 162, which can be described for the record as a gray jacket with zipper, have you seen Lee Oswald wear this jacket?
Mr.Frazier. No, sir; I haven't.
Mr.Ball. I have here Commission 150, which is described as sort of a rust brown shirt. Have you ever seen Lee Oswald wear this shirt? It has a hole in the sleeve near the elbow.
Mr.Frazier. No, sir; I don't believe I have because most time I noticed when Lee had it, I say he put off his shirt and just wear a T-shirt the biggest part of the time so really what shirt he wore that day I really didn't see it or didn't pay enough attention to it whether he did have a shirt on.
Mr.Ball. On that day you did notice one article of clothing, that is, he had a jacket?
Mr.Frazier. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. What color was the jacket?
Mr.Frazier. It was a gray, more or less flannel, wool-looking type of jacket that I had seen him wear and that is the type of jacket he had on that morning.
Mr.Ball. Did it have a zipper on it?
Mr.Frazier. Yes, sir; it was one of the zipper types.
Mr.Ball. It isn't one of these two zipper jackets we have shown?
Mr.Frazier. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Do you know what kind of trousers he had on, what color?
Mr.Frazier. Not that day, I don't remember.
Mr.Ball. You wouldn't remember that day?
Mr.Frazier. I had seen him wear some gray ones before.
Mr.Ball. Here is Commission's Exhibit No. 157 which are gray trousers. Had you ever seen him wear these?
Mr.Frazier. Yes; to be frank with you, I had seen something more or less of that order, that type of material, but so far as that, being sure that, was his pants or some of his clothes, I couldn't be sure.
Mr.Ball. Here is Commission No. 156 which is a pair of gray trousers. Did you ever see him wear trousers of that type?
Mr.Frazier. Not that I know of.
Mr.Ball. You are not able to tell us then anything or are you able to tell us, describe any of the clothing he had on that day, except this gray jacket?
Mr.Frazier. Right.
Mr.Ball. That is the only thing you can remember?
Mr.Frazier. Right.
Mr.Ball. I have here a paper sack which is Commission's Exhibit 364.
That gray jacket you mentioned, did it have any design in it?
Mr.Frazier. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Was it light or dark gray?
Mr.Frazier. It was light gray.
Mr.Ball. You mentioned it was woolen.
Mr.Frazier. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Long sleeves?
Mr.Frazier. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Buttoned sleeves at the wrist, or do you remember?
Mr.Frazier. To be frank with you, I didn't notice that much about the jacket, but I had seen him wear that gray woolen jacket before.
Mr.Ball. You say it had a zipper on it?
Mr.Frazier. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Now we have over here this exhibit for identification which is 364 which is a paper sack made out of tape, sort of a home made affair. Will you take a look at this. Does this appear to be anything like the color of the sack you saw on the back seat?
Mr.Frazier. Yes, sir; I would say it was, it was more a color like this.
Mr.Ball. It was more like this color, correct?
Mr.Frazier. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Did it have tape on it or did you notice it?
Mr.Frazier. Well, like I say, I didn't notice that much about it as I didn't see it very much.
Mr.Ball. Will you take a look at it as to the length. Does it appear to be about the same length?
Mr.Frazier. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. We will just use this. Was one end of the sack turned over, folded over? Do you remember that?
Mr.Frazier. Well, you know, like I was saying, when I glanced at it, but I say from what I saw I didn't see very much of it, I say the bag wasn't open or anything like it where you can see the contents. If you was going to say putting—to more or less a person putting in carefully he would throw it in carefully, you put it more toward the back. If he had anything folded up in it I didn't see that.
Mr.Ball. When you saw him get out of the car, when you first saw him when he was out of the car before he started to walk, you noticed he had the package under the arm?
Mr.Frazier. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. One end of it was under the armpit and the other he had to hold it in his right hand. Did the package extend beyond the right hand?
Mr.Frazier. No, sir. Like I say if you put it under your armpits and put it down normal to the side.
Mr.Ball. But the right hand on, was it on the end or the side of the package?
Mr.Frazier. No; he had it cupped in his hand.
Mr.Ball. Cupped in his hand?
Mr.Frazier. Right.
Mr.Ball. Take a look at this paper bag which is Commission Exhibit 364 for identification, with reference to the width.
Was the bag about that width or a different width?
Mr.Frazier. Well. I would say it appears to me it would be pretty close but it might be just a little bit too wide. I think it is, because you know yourself you would have to have a big hand with that size but like I say he had this cupped in his hand because I remember glancing at him when he was a walking up ahead of me.
Mr.Ball. This is another bag here which has been marked Commission's Exhibit 142. But I don't see the stamp on it. This is FBI No. 10. This was shown to you before, wasn't it, in Dallas?
Mr.Frazier. Yes, sir; it was.
Mr.Ball. You were asked if you had seen this before, weren't you?
Mr.Frazier. Yes, sir; I was.
Mr.Ball. When you first saw it, you felt that the bag you saw was of a different color, didn't you?
Mr.Frazier. Right, and I say they told me this one had been treated in the lab.
Mr.Ball. If you will note there is a part of this bag which has not been treated.
Mr.Frazier. Yes.
Mr.Ball. So I will show you this part of this exhibit that hasn't been treated, and tell me whether or not the paper, the color of the paper that has not been treated, is or is not similar to the color of the paper on the bag you saw on the back seat of your car that morning.
(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.)
Mr.Frazier. To be frank with you, more like I say the color, the color I saw would be more like it but I imagine if this hadn't been run through that process that this color here that you unwrapped would be more closer to this. This seems to have a little bit different color to me.
Mr.Ball. I didn't get the answer because of the—let's refer to this bag, that is the colored bag.
Mr.Frazier. Okay, sir.
Mr.Ball. And the bag that is not colored, and the other is just a bag.
Mr.Frazier. Okay, sir.
Mr.Ball. We are talking about the colored bag, the one that has changed its color. There is a part of the colored bag that hasn't changed color, isn't it?
Mr.Frazier. Right.
Mr.Ball. That is the part I want to call your attention to.
Mr.Frazier. Right.
Mr.Ball. The color of this bag, the colored bag, has not been treated. Take a look at it. Is that similar to the color of the bag you saw in the back seat of your car that morning?
Mr.Frazier. It would be, surely it could have been, and it couldn't have been. Like I say, see, you know this color, either one of these colors, is very similar to the type of paper that you can get out of a store or anything like that, and so I say it could have been and then it couldn't have been.
Mr.Ball. Do you mean by that that it is similar to the color?
Mr.Frazier. Right.
Mr.Ball. And do you have a definite memory of the color of the bag you saw on the back seat of your car so that you can distinguish between one color and another?
Mr.Frazier. I believe it would be more on this basis here.
Mr.Ball. You say it would be more on the color of bag No. 364, is that right?
Mr.Frazier. Right.
Mr.Ball. You will notice that this bag which is the colored bag, FBI Exhibit No. 10, is folded over. Was it folded over when you saw it the first time, folded over to the end?
Mr.Frazier. I will say I am not sure about that, whether it was folded over or not, because, like I say, I didn't pay that much attention to it.
Mr.Ball. This is Commission Exhibit No. 142.
TheChairman. That is the dark bag?
Mr.Ball. The dark bag is Commission Exhibit No. 142.
When you were shown this bag, do you recall whether or not you told the officers who showed you the bag—did you tell them whether you thought it was or was not about the same length as the bag you saw on the back seat?
Mr.Frazier. I told them that as far as the length there, I told them that was entirely too long.
Mr.Ball. What about the width?
Mr.Frazier. Well, I say, like I say now, now I couldn't see much of the bag from him walking in front of me. Now he could have had some of it sticking out in front of his hands because I didn't see it from the front. The only time I did see it was from the back, just a little strip running down from your arm and so therefore, like that, I say, I know that the bag wouldn't be that long.
So far as being that wide like I say I couldn't be sure.
Mr.Ball. It could have been that wide?
Mr.Frazier. Right.
Mr.Ball. Now, you said that some of the bag might have been beyond his hands, did you say?
Mr.Frazier. Yes, sir; I said it could have, now I am not saying it was.
Mr.Ball. In other words, it could have been longer than his hands?
Mr.Frazier. Right.
Mr.Ball. It has been suggested that you take this bag, which is the colored bag, Commission Exhibit No. 142, and put it under your arm just as a sample, or just to show about how he carried the bag.
Mr.Frazier. Okay.
Mr.Ball. Put it under your armpit.
Mr.Frazier. Like that, normally your hand would come down like that and you would say, you would have an item, like you have seen people carry items like they would be walking along and your arm would come down like that, justlike——
Mr.Ball. But are you sure that his hand was at the end of the package or at the side of the package?
Mr.Frazier. Like I said, I remember I didn't look at the package very much, paying much attention, but when I did look at it he did have his hands on the package like that.
Mr.Ball. But you said a moment ago you weren't sure whether the package was longer or shorter.
Mr.Frazier. And his hands because I couldn't see that about the package.
Mr.Ball. By that, do you mean that you don't know whether the package extended beyond his hands?
Mr.Frazier. This way?
Mr.Ball. No; lengthwise, toward his feet.
Mr.Frazier. No; now I don't mean that.
Mr.Ball. What do you mean?
Mr.Frazier. What I was talking about, I said I didn't know where it extended. It could have or couldn't have, out this way, widthwise not lengthwise.
Mr.Ball. In other words, you say it could have been wider than your original estimate?
Mr.Frazier. Right.
Mr.Ball. But you don't think it was longer than his hands?
Mr.Frazier. Right.
Mr.Ball. How tall are you?
Mr.Frazier. I am 6-foot, a little bit over 6-foot.
Mr.Ball. Do you know what your arm length is?
Mr.Frazier. No, sir; I don't.
Mr.Ball. We can probably measure it before you leave.
Did you ever see Lee taking home anything with him from the Texas Book Depository Building?
Mr.Frazier. No, sir; never did.
Mr.Ball. Did you ever see him taking a package home with him?
Mr.Frazier. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. When was the last time you can remember you saw Lee?
Mr.Frazier. You mean on the 22d?
Mr.Ball. On the 22d, that day.
Mr.Frazier. Somewhere between it was after 10 and somewhere before noon, because I remember I was walking down to the first floor that day, that was the only time I went up on the elevator was, like I say, for a few minutes and, I put that box of books up and put it down, and I was on the first floor putting up books all day and I seen him back and forth and he would be walking and getting books and put on the order.
Mr.Ball. That was the last time you saw him all day?
Mr.Frazier. Right.
Mr.Ball. You didn't talk to him again?
Mr.Frazier. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr.Ball. Did you wear a coat or jacket to work that morning?
Mr.Frazier. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr.Ball. It was chilly, was it?
Mr.Frazier. Yes, sir; it was.
Mr.Ball. When you stood out on the front looking at the parade, where was Shelley standing and where was Lovelady standing with reference to you?
Mr.Frazier. Well, see, I was standing, like I say, one step down from the top, and Mr. Shelley was standing, you know, back from the top step and over toward the side of the wall there. See, he was standing right over there, and then Billy was a couple of steps down from me over toward more the wall also.
Mr.Ball. Usually when Lee walked in the Building in the morning, when you came to work with him where did he go, do you know?
Mr.Frazier. No, sir. He just walked in, say, like inside the Building, and like I say I always went and put my lunch up and hang my jacket or coat up, whichever I wore, and he was usually around there on the first floor there after some of them put their lunch in the refrigerator, so far as that I never paid too much attention to what he usually did.
Mr.Ball. You usually walked in together?
Mr.Frazier. That is right, sir.
Mr.Ball. And you separated after you got in there?
Mr.Frazier. Yes; after we got into the interior I just went and put my lunch up.
Mr.Ball. Did you notice where Lee kept his lunch?
Mr.Frazier. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr.Ball. Did you ever see him come into the Building on other days than the days that he rode with you?
Mr.Frazier. You mean did I ever see him come in the Building when he rode with me?
Mr.Ball. Yes.
Mr.Frazier. Yes, sir; because when he rode with me we always walked together.
Mr.Ball. No; other than when he rode with you.
Mr.Frazier. Oh, other than when he rode with me. No, sir; I didn't.
TheChairman. Did he have any particular associates around there that you knew of?
Mr.Frazier. Not that I knew of. I say he didn't mingle with other guys like the rest of us. The rest of us usually joked back and forth with practically everybody who worked around there. But he usually kept to himself, that was the only time he talked to anybody was when he wanted to know something about a book or something like that.
Mr.Ball. We have got a picture taken the day of the parade and it shows the President's car going by.
Now, take a look at that picture. Can you see your picture any place there?
Mr.Frazier. No, sir; I don't, because I was back up in this more or less black area here.
Mr.Ball. I see.
Mr.Frazier. Because Billy, like I say, is two or three steps down in front of me.
Mr.Ball. Do you recognize this fellow?
Mr.Frazier. That is Billy, that is Billy Lovelady.
Mr.Ball. Billy?
Mr.Frazier. Right.
Mr.Ball. Let's take a marker and make an arrow down that way. That mark is Billy Lovelady?
Mr.Frazier. Right.
Mr.Ball. That is where you told us you were standing a moment ago.
Mr.Frazier. Right.
Mr.Ball. In front of you to the right over to the wall?
Mr.Frazier. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Is this a Commission exhibit?
We will make this a Commission Exhibit No. 369.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 369 for identification.)
Mr.Ball. That is written in. The arrow marks Billy Lovelady on Commission's Exhibit No. 369.
TheChairman. Do you have any lockers there in which you put your clothes, and so forth?
Mr.Frazier. No, sir; we don't.
(At this point, Representative Ford withdrew from the hearing room.)
Mr.Frazier. Some boys hang their jackets up in there in that little domino room where they were going to play dominoes. But here lately, I have been wondering, you know, most of us wear our jackets, what we have on, because if you are going out there on a dock in the cold air we usually keep them on.
TheChairman. I see.
Mr.Ball. On Thursday afternoon when you went home, drove on home, did he carry any package with him?
Mr.Frazier. No, sir; he didn't.
Mr.Ball. Did he have a jacket or coat on him?
Mr.Frazier. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. What kind of a jacket or coat did he have?
Mr.Frazier. That, you know, like I say gray jacket.
Mr.Ball. That same gray jacket?
Mr.Frazier. Yes, sir. Now, I can be frank with you, I had seen him wear that jacket several times, because it is cool type like when you keep a jacket on all day, if you are working on outside or something like that, you wouldn't go outside with just a plain shirt on.
Mr.Ball. I have no further questions.
TheChairman. Senator, have you any questions you would like to ask?
I think that is all.
Does anybody else have any questions to ask? Do you have any questions?
Mr.Ball. Mr. Frazier, we have here this Exhibit No. 364 which is a sack and in that we have put a dismantled gun. Don't pay any attention to that. Will you stand up here and put this under your arm and then take hold of it at the side?
Now, is that anywhere near similar to the way that Oswald carried the package?
Mr.Frazier. Well, you know, like I said now, I said I didn't pay muchattention——
Mr.Ball. Turn around.
Mr.Frazier. I didn't pay much attention, but when I did, I say, he had this part down here, like the bottom would be short he had cupped in his hand like that and, say, like walking from the back if you had a big arm jacket there you wouldn't tell much from a package back there, the physical features. If you could see it from the front like when you walk and meet somebody you could tell about the package, but walking from behind you couldn't tell much about the package whatsoever about the width. But he didn't carry it from the back. If this package were shorter he would have it cupped in his hands.
TheChairman. Could he have had the top of it behind his shoulder, or are you sure it was cupped under his shoulder there?
Mr.Frazier. Yes; because the way it looked, you know, like I say, he had it cupped in his hand.
TheChairman. I beg your pardon?
Mr.Frazier. I said from where I noticed he had it cupped in his hands. And I don't see how you could have it anywhere other than under your armpit because if you had it cupped in your hand it would stick over it.
Mr.Ball. Could he have carried it this way?
Mr.Frazier. No, sir. Never in front here. Like that. Now, that is what I was talking to you about. No, I say he couldn't because if he had you would have seen the package sticking up like that.
From what I seen walking behind he had it under his arm and you couldn't tell that he had a package from the back.
Mr.Ball. When you cupped the bottom of your package in the hands, will you stand up, again, please, and the upper part of the package is not under the armpit, the top of the package extends almost up to the level of your ear.
Mr.Frazier. Right.
Mr.Ball. Or your eye level, and when you put the package under your armpit, the upper part of the package, and take a hold of the side of it with your righthand, it extends on approximately about 8 inches, about the span of my hand, more than 8 inches, 8, 10 inches.
Mr.Frazier. If you were using a yardstick or one of theselittle——
Mr.Ball. I was using my hand.
Mr.Frazier. I know you were, but there are some different means to measure it. I will say it varies, if you use a yardstick. You can go and measure something with a tape measure, with a yardstick and come up with a different measurement altogether, maybe a quarter of an inch shorter or longer.
Mr.Ball. I was asked, there was some uncertainty in your testimony as to the direction from which you heard the shots fired. Let's see if we can illustrate it.
You heard the shots fired and you expressed an opinion that it came from a certain direction. I would like to clear that up, if I could, on this map.
Here is the Texas School Book Depository Building, and you were standing right here, you said, weren't you? Can you tell me?
Mr.Frazier. You know the entrance there is not quite at that corner.
Mr.Ball. That close.
Now, you say you heard these three sounds which you later thought were probably shots, you thought it came from a certain direction.
Can you tell us from what direction as illustrated on the map?
Mr.Frazier. Right. Now I say, you know where it is the straight curve that goes under the underpass.
Mr.Ball. That is the parkway?
Mr.Frazier. Right. I say it runs over this parkway, you don't have it on here—anyway, I say these railroad tracks there is a series of them that come up over this, up over this overpass there, and from where I was standing, I say, it is my true opinion, that is what I thought, it sounded like it came from over there, in the railroad tracks.
Mr.Ball. That would be east and south?
Mr.Frazier. No; that would be west and south.
Mr.Ball. West and south?
Mr.Frazier. No; it would be north.
Mr.Ball. No; it wouldn't be north.
Mr.Frazier. Yes; it wouldn't be south because that is in that direction.
Mr.Ball. This is north, and you say it, I believe, it came from north?
Mr.Frazier. It would be more or less west and north were these tracks from this overpass.
Mr.Ball. Your direction was west and north as the source of the sound.
Well, take a look at the map that does show the overpass and you will put a mark on that.
Did any other people who were standing there with you express any opinion as to where they thought the sounds came from?
Mr.Frazier. Well, I say, after we found out it was shots I see some of the other people around there said when they were staying there, said that is what it was, downward right back from us, like where we were standing. If we had been standing somewhere else you might have gotten a different opinion, but from where we were standing on the steps there it sounded like back down to the right.
Mr.Ball. Here is a Commission Exhibit, No. 347. It is an aerial photograph, and it shows the Texas School Book Depository Building.
Mr.Frazier. Here is the Depository Building here.
Mr.Ball. That is right, sir. Here is the parkway.
Mr.Frazier. Right.
Mr.Ball. Here are the overpasses here.
Can you show us on that map where you think—will that map—can you on that map indicate the general direction from which you thought the sounds came from?
Mr.Frazier. Yes, sir; because we were standing right here.
Mr.Ball. Don't mark it up right now.
Mr.Frazier. Right. But what I am trying to say is we were standing down there, and back over here, this over here is more or less a knoll, and you can look over there and see this. You see this furthest left line that curved aroundhere is the ones we take to come out on Stemmons Expressway, and this is a high knoll up here which runs where the tracks are, from standing there it sounded like it came from this general area over here.
Mr.Ball. Just mark on that if you can, if you can mark a source.
Mr.Frazier. This is where it is.
Mr.Ball. Mark a circle.
Mr.Frazier. I would say just like over in here.
Mr.Ball. Let's make it a little heavier. In that general direction?
Mr.Frazier. Yes, sir. That was just part of the knoll.
Mr.Ball. The circle marked on No. 347, we will identify it with an "F," the circle marked "F" represents the direction, general direction, of a source of sound as you—as occurred to you as you stood on the front steps of the Texas Book Depository Building, is that right?
Mr.Frazier. Right.
Mr.Ball. I have no further questions.
TheChairman. Anything from you, Senator?
Well, that will be all. Thank you very much for coming and testifying before the Commission.
Mr.Frazier. Thank you, Mr. Warren.
TheChairman. All right, bring in the next witness.
The Commission will be in order.
Mrs. Randle, I will just read you a brief statement of the purpose of our meeting today.
The purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of Buell Wesley Frazier and Linnie Mae Randle. The Commission has been advised that these two witnesses have stated that they saw Lee Harvey Oswald on the morning of November 22, 1963. The Commission proposes to ask these witnesses questions concerning their knowledge of the assassination of President Kennedy.
You have a copy of that, do you not?
Very well, Mr. Ball will conduct the examination.
Will you rise and be sworn, please?
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs.Randle. Yes, sir.
TheChairman. Please be seated.
Mr. Ball?
Mr.Ball. Mrs. Randle, where do you live?
Mrs.Randle. 2438 Westfield, Irving, Tex.
Mr.Ball. And you live there with your husband and three daughters, do you?
Mrs.Randle. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And your brother?
Mrs.Randle. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Wesley?
Mrs.Randle. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. How long has Wesley been living there?
Mrs.Randle. Since September, somewhere around the first, I am not sure just the date.
Mr.Ball. Do you know Mrs. Ruth Paine?
Mrs.Randle. She is a neighbor that lives up the street from me.
Mr.Ball. When did you first meet Mrs. Paine?
Mrs.Randle. Well, for a period, I am not sure of this, it is quite 2 years, I lived across the street from her. I didn't visit with her, but I visited with her neighbor who lives next door.
Mr.Ball. What is her name?
Mrs.Randle. Mrs. Dorothy Roberts.
Mr.Ball. That is on Fifth Street in Irving, Tex.?
Mrs.Randle. That is right; yes.
Mr.Ball. That was before you moved down the street to the corner of Westfield and Fifth Street?
Mrs.Randle. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. You had never visited in Mrs. Paine's home?
Mrs.Randle. I was in her home on one occasion that I remember at a birthday party for one of her children and she invited mine.
Mr.Ball. How long ago?
Mrs.Randle. It has been about a year ago.
Mr.Ball. That is the only time you have visited Mrs. Paine?
Mrs.Randle. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did you ever meet Marina Oswald?
Mrs.Randle. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr.Ball. When did you meet her?
Mrs.Randle. The first time I met her was over at this Mrs. Roberts. I had gone up there to see Mrs. Roberts and her, Mrs. Oswald and Mrs. Paine was over there drinking coffee, that was the first time I met her.
Mr.Ball. When was that?
Mrs.Randle. Well, I believe it was the first week in October.
Mr.Ball. That is the first time you had ever met Mrs. Oswald?
Mrs.Randle. Officially met her. I had seen her out in the yard and through the neighbor I knew who she was. I hadn't met her until that time.
Mr.Ball. Did you ever see her again to talk to her, Marina Oswald?
Mrs.Randle. Well, she couldn't speak English, "How are you" and things like that was about all she could say and I did visit with Mrs. Roberts quite often and so she would be out in the yard and she would speak.
Mr.Ball. In whose yards, Mrs. Roberts' yard or Mrs. Paine's?
Mrs.Randle. Mrs. Paine's. She played with her children, and kept the yard and things like that.
Mr.Ball. But on this one occasion she was in the house, Mrs. Roberts' house?
Mrs.Randle. Mrs. Roberts.
Mr.Ball. With Mrs. Paine, Mrs. Roberts and yourself?
Mrs.Randle. That is right.
Mr.Ball. Was there some conversation at that time about her husband Lee Oswald?
Mrs.Randle. Well, they had—it was just general knowledge in the neighborhood that he didn't have a job and she was expecting a baby. Of course, I didn't know where he was or anything. And of course you know just being neighborly and everything, we felt sorry for Marina because her baby was due right away as we understood it, and he didn't have any work, so they said, so it wasjust——
Mr.Ball. Mrs. Paine told you that Lee didn't have any work?
Mrs.Randle. Well, I suppose. It was just in conversation.
Mr.Ball. Marina didn't take part in the conversation?
Mrs.Randle. No. She couldn't. So far as I know, she couldn't speak.
Mr.Ball. You and Mrs. Roberts and Mrs. Paine talked about it?
Mrs.Randle. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Was there anything said then about the Texas School Book Depository as a place he might get a job?
Mrs.Randle. Well, we didn't say that he might get a job, because I didn't know there was a job open. The reason that we were being helpful, Wesley had just looked for a job, and I had helped him to try to find one. We listed several places that he might go to look for work. When you live in a place you know some places that someone with, you know, not very much of an education can find work.
So, it was among one of the places that we mentioned. We mentioned several others, and Mrs. Paine said that well, he couldn't apply for any of the jobs that would require driving because he couldn't drive, and it was just in conversation that you might talk just any day and not think a thing on earth about it. In fact, I didn't even know that he had even tried any place that we mentioned.
Mr.Ball. What were some of the other places mentioned?
Mrs.Randle. Well, I remember two of them. Mrs. Roberts entered into the conversation and, of course, she is more familiar with the place than I am. It was Manor Bakeries which was a home delivery service.
Then there was this Texas Gypsum which makes sheet rock and things like that, and we mentioned because Wesley had tried those places that I mentioned those.
Mr.Ball. And then you also mentioned the Texas Book Depository?
Mrs.Randle. Well, I didn't know there was a job opening over there.
Mr.Ball. But did you mention it?
Mrs.Randle. But we said he might try over there. There might be work over there because it was the busy season but I didn't have any previous knowledge that there was any job opening.
Mr.Ball. Did you later learn that Lee had applied for a job?
Mrs.Randle. She told me, Mrs. Paine told me, later that he had applied for the job, and had gotten the job and she thanked us for naming the places and things like that.
Mr.Ball. Did you tell your brother that a fellow named Lee Oswald was going to work for them?
Mrs.Randle. No, sir; I didn't even know his name. She said Lee so I just assumed that was his last name and I just merely mentioned to Wesley that he had got the job or a job over there.
Mr.Ball. That Lee had the job?
Mrs.Randle. That Mrs. Paine said that, I had told Wesley that he might—that she said he was going to call over there.
In fact, Mrs. Paine asked me if I would call and see if there was a job available and I told her, no, that I didn't know anybody over there, and if she wanted to call over the place she would have to do it because I didn't know if there was any job openings over there.
Mr.Ball. You told Wesley, though, that you had—Mrs. Paine had told you that Lee had applied for a job and gotten a job there?
Mrs.Randle. Sir, I don't remember if I mentioned it to him or not.
Mr.Ball. When you said a moment ago that you had mentioned something to Wesley?
Mrs.Randle. I might have had. But I can't say for sure I did because at the time it was unimportant to me. It didn't really matter.
Mr.Ball. In other words, you are not sure whether you did or didn't?
Mrs.Randle. That is right. I might have, I don't know maybe for sure if I did.
Mr.Ball. Did Lee tell you at sometime that he had started to drive?
Mrs.Randle. I never talked to Lee.
Mr.Ball. Did Wesley tell you that he was driving Lee home weekends or driving him to Irving weekends?
Mrs.Randle. Wesley had told me that he asked to ride out on weekends.
Mr.Ball. Did you ever see him arrive with Lee?
Mrs.Randle. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Do you recall on a Thursday night, November 21 that you saw Lee get out of Wesley's car?
Mrs.Randle. That is right.
Mr.Ball. About what time of night was it?
Mrs.Randle. About 5:20, I believe, 5:15 or 5:25 something like that.
Mr.Ball. Where were you when you saw him?
Mrs.Randle. I was on my way to the grocery store.
Mr.Ball. Did you talk to Wesley about the fact that he had brought Lee home on this night?
Mrs.Randle. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did you think it was unusual that he had come home that night?
Mrs.Randle. Well, I knew that he had—Friday is the only time he had ever ridden with him before which was a couple of times, I don't think he rode with him over three times, I am not sure but I never did know of him arriving, you know, except on Friday.
Mr.Ball. Well, did you mention to Wesley that night or did you ask Wesley that night how Lee happened to come home on Thursday?
Mrs.Randle. I might have asked him.
Mr.Ball. Do you remember anything about curtain rods?
Mrs.Randle. Yes.
Mr.Ball. What do you remember about that?
Mrs.Randle. He had toldWesley——
Mr.Ball. Tell me what Wesley told you.
Mrs.Randle. What Wesley told me. That Lee had rode home with him to get some curtain rods from Mrs. Paine to fix up his apartment.