Mr.Jenner. Excuse me, Representative Ford, the witness had also related to us, which we had not known, when she came to New Orleans in the spring to bring Marina from Irving to New Orleans, that Lee Harvey Oswald told her that he had driven his uncle's car, one of the Murrets, in New Orleans on the street.
Go ahead.
RepresentativeFord. Perhaps I should say that I have been absent for a half hour or so attending a very important committee meeting, so I didn't get this story from the outset and I appreciate being brought up to date on it.
Mrs.Paine. There were two occasions when we practiced parking, one in the larger parking lot just backing into, pretending there were cars there to back between, as in parallel parking, and another occasion directly in front of my house. On this second occasion directly in front of my house he finally learned how to do it. He had had a bad time, getting his wheels too cramped and not getting in, and getting his wheels straightened out, a beginner's mistakes.
Finally, I got into the car and told him when to start reversing the twist on his wheel and cramp, and he said, so soon. It was a surprise. It didn't feel to him it was time already to start coming out of the turn.
And then he saw that it was when he then got into the parking place correctly, and quite soon got the feel of it but this was clearly his first experience doing it right, and then he practiced doing it right several times, and he learned quite well, I thought.
(At this point, Chief Justice Warren entered the hearing room.)
RepresentativeFord. On these subsequent occasions did he ask you to help him or did he take the keys and do it on his own initiative?
Mrs.Paine. No, he never took the keys. I offered to give him—give Lee lessons on Sunday afternoons and we managed to do it a few Sunday afternoons, I think three altogether and there were a couple of weekends when we didn't get the lesson in, something intervened.
RepresentativeFord. This was in October of 1963?
Mrs.Paine. October and November. I think the last lesson was November 10, being the last Sunday.
Mr.Dulles. What progress did he make over that period?
Mrs.Paine. Considerable.
Mr.Dulles. Reasonable progress?
Mrs.Paine. Very reasonable progress. I thought he learned well, as I have said, both backing and to make a right-angle turn, and really began to understand the feeling of parking.
RepresentativeFord. Did he indicate to you when he might apply for a driver's license?
Mrs.Paine. Yes. Oh, yes. Thank you. It is a whole new section.
Mr.Jenner. I was about to go into that.
Mr.Dulles. There was some testimony on that point, I believe.
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
RepresentativeFord. Mr. Frazier testified that Oswald mentioned to him that he was going to or had, I am not sure which, and I was wondering whether he mentioned it to you?
Mr.Dulles. Got in line.
Mrs.Paine. Yes, on November 9, which was election day, Saturday, in Texas.
Mr.Jenner. This was the weekend he was home?
Mrs.Paine. This was the weekend that he was home, which was the last weekend he was home, don't call it home though.
Mr.Jenner. I am sorry. It was the last weekend that he was at your home?
Mrs.Paine. That is correct.
Mr.Jenner. And he arrived the previous day, evening or late afternoon?
Mrs.Paine. That is correct.
Mr.Jenner. Now starting with that Friday afternoon, please relate the course of events?
Mrs.Paine. Well, I will say that we went Saturday morning to a station in Dallas where you can take the written test and eye test that permits you to get a learner's permit, but when we got there—that is all of us, children, Lee, Marina and myself, driving in my car to Oak Cliff—when we got there it was closed, being election day. I hadn't thought, realized that this would mean it would be closed. So we returned.
The nextweekend——
Mr.Jenner. Excuse me, before you reach that.
Mrs.Paine. Right.
Mr.Jenner. Are you reasonably certain that he came home or came to Irving the previous afternoon?
Mrs.Paine. Certainly.
Mr.Jenner. Perhaps to refresh your recollection, do you remember a weekend in which Lee Harvey Oswald called from Dallas and said to Marina that he would not be in that Friday afternoon because he was going to do some job hunting the next morning, and that he would come the next day? Could it be that this was that weekend?
Mrs.Paine. Well, he had already had a job that weekend, didn't he? So he wouldn't have been job hunting. I recall he was there in the morning, Saturday morning.
Mr.Jenner. Looking for another job?
Mrs.Paine. Oh, well, no.
Mr.Jenner. You don't recall any discussion of his being dissatisfied with the job at the Texas School Book Depository?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. And was undertaking to look for another job?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. There is no discussion?
Mrs.Paine. There is one Saturday that he came out later but that was still in October. It was the second weekend that he came out, altogether he came out on the weekend of the 4th, so he would have come out on October 12, Saturday. It doesn't check with my recollection.
Mr.Jenner. So just to make sure, it is your present recollection that you can recall no occasion when you were advised by Marina or directly that Lee Harvey Oswald called and said he would not be in on that particular Friday but would come the next day?
Mrs.Paine. I would be quite certain it was not that weekend. It is possible that this happened, I don't recall any discussion, nor did I have any idea that there had been any occasion when he had to look for a different job.
Mr.Jenner. Never any discussion on that subject?
Mrs.Paine. Never.
Just to complete the discussion of automobile driving, I will go on to the next weekend then when he did not come out to my house, butI——
RepresentativeFord. That would be the weekend of the 18th?
Mrs.Paine. Just prior to the assassination. The 16th I was having a birthday party for my little girl and said I couldn't possibly take him again to this place so he could take a test. But that he didn't need a car. This was news to him. He thought he needed a car for his initial test, learner's permit. I said he could go himself from Dallas.
Mr.Jenner. This was a conversation between you and Lee Oswald?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. How did it take place?
Mrs.Paine. It must have been by phone.
Mr.Jenner. Did he call you or did you call him?
Mrs.Paine. He called to the house nearly every night around 5:30 to talk to Marina. And Marina suggested to him that he wouldn't, shouldn't come out that weekend because I was having a birthday party and it had been a long weekend, the prior weekend. She didn't want him to wear out his welcome, and then I said to him he could still try toget——
Mr.Jenner. You did talk with him on the telephone?
Mrs.Paine. That is my recollection. I am certain that I talked with him, that he was surprised that he didn't need a car. I had to tell him that he didn't need a car to take with him to take his test.
Mr.Jenner. Take his initial test?
Mrs.Paine. Take his test, and suggested that he go from Dallas himself to take this test. Then he called us Saturday afternoon of the 16th to say he had been and tried to get his driver's permit but that he had arrived before closing time but still too late to get in because there was a long line ahead of him, the place having been closed both the previous Saturday for election day and the following Monday, the 11th, Veterans Day. There were a lot of people who wanted to get permits and he was advised that it wouldn't pay him to wait in line. He didn't have time to be tested.
Mr.Jenner. Could you help us fix, can you recall as closely as possible the day of the week, this is the weekend of the assassination, was it not?
Mrs.Paine. The weekend before.
Mr.Jenner. The weekend before, and this conversation you are now relating that you had with him in which he said that he had gone to the driver's license station, when did that conversation with you take place?
Mrs.Paine. That conversation was with Marina, and she told me about it.
Mr.Jenner. When did she tell you about it?
Mrs.Paine. He called her, it must have been Saturday afternoon, soon after he had been, he went Saturday morning and they closed at noon.
Mr.Jenner. I see. This was the weekend he did not come out to Irving?
Mrs.Paine. This was the weekend he did not come out.
Mr.Jenner. The weekend in which you had your birthday party for your son was it?
Mrs.Paine. It was either that same afternoon or it was possibly Sunday, I don't recall. It is important though. I wish I could recall when his call to her was. Since it relates to the problem of when I dialed his number.
Mr.Jenner. Mr. Chairman, I have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 426 a form or document which purports to be a driver's permit or driver's license permit application by Lee Harvey Oswald. It is a one-page form document on heavy board, or at least heavy paper.
Are you familiar sufficiently with the handwriting or handprinting of Lee Harvey Oswald to be able to tell us whether the writing and handprinting on that document is or is not Lee Harvey Oswald's?
Mrs.Paine. I am not sufficiently familiar. I can simply compare it with the only other thing I have seen in his printing which is what he wrote down in my diary.
Mr.Jenner. Refreshing your recollection in that respect and looking at the exhibit, if you are able to do so, would you give us your opinion as to whether the exhibit is in the handwriting or handprinting of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs.Paine. I think it very likely is.
Mr.Jenner. In your short talk with Lee Harvey Oswald on the subject of his having gone to the license application department in Dallas, was anything said about his actually having filled out a driver's license or a learner's permit application?
Mrs.Paine. No; nothing.
Mr.Dulles. Could we have the date of this document?
Mr.Jenner. If it is dated. My recollection is it is not.
Mrs.Paine. His birthday is on it only. Picked up at his room on the date of the assassination. I guess it was picked up, I don't know.
Mr.Jenner. Could I review this with you a little bit? Did Lee Harvey Oswald on this occasion tell you in the course of what limited telephone conversationyou had with him, that he had gone to the driver's license application bureau?
Mrs.Paine. No; he told Marina.
Mr.Jenner. And did—he told Marina and then Marina in turn told you?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. How near the time of the telephone conversation?
Mrs.Paine. She told me immediately.
Mr.Jenner. Did Marina tell you?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. She just turned from the phone and told you at once?
Mrs.Paine. That is correct.
Mr.Jenner. This was spontaneous?
Mrs.Paine. Yes. It may have been while she was still on the phone, I don't recall, but it certainly was immediate.
Mr.Jenner. Mr. Dulles, to answer your question the document is not dated.
RepresentativeFord. I was just noticing in the upper right-hand corner on the one side he lists his occupation as photographer.
Mr.Jenner. Yes; this is so.
Mrs.Paine. This is what he wanted to do, not what he was doing.
Mr.Jenner. Would you please relate to the Commission what your impression of what his occupation was or occupation had been during the period of time that you had known him?
Mrs.Paine. When I first met him he was working at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall. And had expressed himself as liking his work. I gathered that it was a kind of copying or making up of advertising layout, develop a photographic process.
When we arrived at New Orleans he pointed to a building where he was working. I saw no writing on the outside of the building. He said—no, first on the phone when he first called to say he had a job, he said he was doing work similar to what he had been doing, photographic type of work.
RepresentativeFord. Work in Dallas?
Mrs.Paine. He called to us in Dallas from New Orleans to say he was doing such work.
Mr.Jenner. In New Orleans?
Mrs.Paine. Subsequently, I have heard it is not so, but this is what he told Marina and she told me over the phone. He said, and she told me immediately over the phone, that he was getting $1.50 an hour instead of $1.25 he had been getting, and then in New Orleans he pointed to a building where he was working, somewhere along the river, near the French Quarter, but a big large brick building with no particular designation on it. I don't know what sort of building it was, but he said it was the photo outfit where he was working then.
When he was looking for a job he said, now, in October, early October, he came back to the Dallas area and he was looking for a job, he said he was hopeful of getting similar work again, photographic layout, whatever it was. But that he was pleased to get any job that would produce an income.
Mr.Dulles. For the Commission's information, Mr. Jenner, is this not, that is Exhibit No. 426, a form which Lee Oswald apparently took home, or filled out somewhere, either his home or at the office, but it was never sworn to and is not signed.
Mr.Jenner. That is correct.
Mr.Dulles. It is not a completed document. It has no date on it.
Mr.Jenner. It is my information and there will be testimony and that is why I didn't go into the document, that it was found in his, among his effects in his room on Beckley Street. With permission, I might describe the document possibly a little more in detail in view of the interest and the question. At the top of the document under name there is hand printing on this form, first the form is entitled "Application for Texas Driver's License."
Mrs.Paine. May I interrupt?
(Whereupon, at 12:45 o'clock the President's Commission recessed.)
Transcriber's NotesPunctuation and spelling were made consistent when a predominant preference was found in this book; otherwise they were not changed.Misspellings in quoted evidence not changed; misspellings that could be due to mispronunciations were not changed.Some simple typographical errors were corrected.Inconsistent hyphenation of compound words retained.Ambiguous end-of-line hyphens retained.Occasional uses of "Mr." for "Mrs." and of "Mrs." for "Mr." corrected.Dubious repeated words, (e.g., "What took place by way of of conversation?") retained.Several unbalanced quotation marks not remedied.Occasional periods that should be question marks not changed.Occasional periods that should be commas, and commas that should be periods, were changed only when they clearly had been misprinted (at the end of a paragraph or following a speaker's name in small-caps at the beginning of a line). Some commas and semi-colons were printed so faintly that they appear to be periods or colons: some were found and corrected, but some almost certainly remain.The Index and illustrated Exhibits volumes of this series may not be available at Project Gutenberg.Page2: Missing opening quotation mark: the fund for the Russian-born widow had reached $76,000."Page3: "No, I have no recollection of anything that she said?" likely should end with a period. Punctuation errors like this occur elsewhere and have not been changed.Page152: "RYW" may be a misprint for "RWY".Page224: "Mr. Ball. It is west of of your house?" repeats "of".Page229: 'Mr. Ball. That is about where you were, a "Z" when he entered the door' should be 'at "Z"'.Page262: "The Chairman. Mr. Whaley, will you wait outside...." was printed as "Mr. Chairman...." and has been changed here for consistency, to make searches more reliable.Page286: Added missing period between "m" and "?": and that is p.m.?Page320: "you have to go the meetings" may be missing "to" after "go".Page320: "She said the thought" probably should be "She said they thought".Page341: "in the early party of September" probably should be "part".Page363: "a bruise or contusion or ecchymosis" was misprinted as "eccmymosis"; spelled correctly earlier on the same page.Page364and elsewhere: "Mr. Specter" misprinted five times as "Mr. Spector"; corrected here.Page375: "its jacket appears to me to be intact" misprinted as "in tact"; corrected here.Page383: "exit would labeled B, Exhibit 388" probably should be "exit wound".Page388: "Mr. Paine. That was in Dallas?" should end with a period, not with a question mark.Page481: "Does your interpretation" misprinted as "Does you interpretation"; corrected here.
Punctuation and spelling were made consistent when a predominant preference was found in this book; otherwise they were not changed.
Misspellings in quoted evidence not changed; misspellings that could be due to mispronunciations were not changed.
Some simple typographical errors were corrected.
Inconsistent hyphenation of compound words retained.
Ambiguous end-of-line hyphens retained.
Occasional uses of "Mr." for "Mrs." and of "Mrs." for "Mr." corrected.
Dubious repeated words, (e.g., "What took place by way of of conversation?") retained.
Several unbalanced quotation marks not remedied.
Occasional periods that should be question marks not changed.
Occasional periods that should be commas, and commas that should be periods, were changed only when they clearly had been misprinted (at the end of a paragraph or following a speaker's name in small-caps at the beginning of a line). Some commas and semi-colons were printed so faintly that they appear to be periods or colons: some were found and corrected, but some almost certainly remain.
The Index and illustrated Exhibits volumes of this series may not be available at Project Gutenberg.
Page2: Missing opening quotation mark: the fund for the Russian-born widow had reached $76,000."
Page3: "No, I have no recollection of anything that she said?" likely should end with a period. Punctuation errors like this occur elsewhere and have not been changed.
Page224: "Mr. Ball. It is west of of your house?" repeats "of".
Page229: 'Mr. Ball. That is about where you were, a "Z" when he entered the door' should be 'at "Z"'.
Page262: "The Chairman. Mr. Whaley, will you wait outside...." was printed as "Mr. Chairman...." and has been changed here for consistency, to make searches more reliable.
Page286: Added missing period between "m" and "?": and that is p.m.?
Page320: "you have to go the meetings" may be missing "to" after "go".
Page320: "She said the thought" probably should be "She said they thought".
Page341: "in the early party of September" probably should be "part".
Page363: "a bruise or contusion or ecchymosis" was misprinted as "eccmymosis"; spelled correctly earlier on the same page.
Page364and elsewhere: "Mr. Specter" misprinted five times as "Mr. Spector"; corrected here.
Page375: "its jacket appears to me to be intact" misprinted as "in tact"; corrected here.
Page383: "exit would labeled B, Exhibit 388" probably should be "exit wound".
Page388: "Mr. Paine. That was in Dallas?" should end with a period, not with a question mark.
Page481: "Does your interpretation" misprinted as "Does you interpretation"; corrected here.