Mrs.Paine. Yes; I do.
Mr.Jenner. What newspapers, excuse me, did he or did he not subscribe?
Mrs.Paine. Yes. They came to my door. They sat around the house until the weekend when he arrived.
Mr.Jenner. Tell us what newspapers those were?
Mrs.Paine. I noticed a paper which I was told was from Minsk.
Mr.Jenner. Was it in Russian?
Mrs.Paine. In Russian.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever see it in the sense of glancing at it out of idle curiosity if nothing else?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And it was in Russian?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Was there something about it that indicated to you that it came from Minsk?
Mrs.Paine. Marina told me.
Mr.Jenner. She told you. Was it a political tract or was it a newspaper as we understand newspapers?
Mrs.Paine. It was a newspaper as Russians understand newspapers which makes it a borderline political tract.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
In addition to that Russian newspaper from Minsk was thereanything——
Mrs.Paine. There was a Russian magazine, small, Reader's Digest size.
Mr.Jenner. The witness is indicating in her hands about a page size of about nineby——
Mrs.Paine. Six.
Mr.Jenner. Nine by six.
Is that about the size?
Mrs.Paine. Something like that, called the Agitator, the name written in Russian.
Mr.Jenner. The word "Agitator" was written in Russian, printed in Russian?
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. On the face or cover page of this document, is that true?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Was the entire document in Russian?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did you have occasion to look at it?
Mrs.Paine. Just the outside.
Mr.Jenner. Your curiosity or intellectual interest never went beyond reading any portion of one of the issues?
Mrs.Paine. It never did.
Mr.Jenner. But you do recall definitely the title page?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Any others?
Mrs.Paine. Crocodile, which is a Russian satirical humor magazine.
Mr.Jenner. Was that in Russian?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did you have occasion to read it and to observe Russian humor?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. It was not political in character?
Mrs.Paine. Being satirical, of course, it made political reference but it was not particularly political in nature.
Mr.Jenner. It was not designed as a political tract, put it that way.
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. Anything else?
Mrs.Paine. Yes. The Russian magazine Ogonok.
Mr.Jenner. What does that mean in Russian?
Mrs.Paine. It means "bonfire" or "fire".
Mr.Jenner. Was that printed in Russian?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did you have—did your curiosity lead you to read any portion of it?
Mrs.Paine. Or it may be—let's see, I am not certain in my translation, but go ahead with the question.
Mr.Jenner. You are not certain of your translation of the word?
Mrs.Paine. Of that single word?
Mr.Jenner. Of the title of this document about which you are now speaking?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. But you think it means what you said it meant?
Mrs.Paine. It has something to do with fire; yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did you read any portion of any of those issues?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; I did.
Mr.Jenner. And what was the nature of it with respect to whether it was political or otherwise?
Mrs.Paine. It was not political.
Mr.Jenner. What was its nature?
Mrs.Paine. Narrative, special articles of interest to the general population. Marina enjoyed reading this one.
Mr.Jenner. She enjoyed it?
Mrs.Paine. She expressed herself as disliking the Agitator. She interpreted some of the things in Crocodile for me which I had difficulty understanding.
Mr.Jenner. Anything else?
Mrs.Paine. Yes. He subscribed to Time magazine.
Mr.Jenner. Here in America?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And did he read it when he come out on weekends?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; he did. He read that first.
Mr.Jenner. Sat down and read that first.
Did he take the issue away with him when he left every week?
Mrs.Paine. It is my impression he did.
Mr.Jenner. Are there any others?
Mrs.Paine. Yes. He subscribed to the Militant.
Mr.Jenner. Militant. What is the Militant?
Mrs.Paine. It is a paper in English, newspaper style and I would say these nexttwo——
Mr.Jenner. Published by whom?
Mrs.Paine. I don't know.
Mr.Jenner. Socialist Worker's Party?
Mrs.Paine. I have been so told.
Mr.Jenner. You just don't know?
Mrs.Paine. I don't know.
Mr.Jenner. But was it a political tract?
Mrs.Paine. I don't know that.
Mr.Jenner. Did you read it?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. Why didn't you?
Mrs.Paine. I wasn't interested.
Mr.Jenner. Because of the nature of the document?
Mrs.Paine. If I had had time to do much reading, I might have taken an interest but I had no time, insufficient time to do the reading I really wanted to do. He also subscribed to the Worker.
Mr.Jenner. Is that the publication of the Communist Party USA?
Mrs.Paine. I have been told so.
Mr.Jenner. Did you read that?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. Did you observe—have you now concluded the list of newspapers, periodicals or magazines to which he was a subscriber?
Mrs.Paine. I believe so. I might say that my awareness of his subscribing to these last two, the Militant and the Worker, came after the assassination. There was mail awaiting for him for that weekend which he did not pick up on the 21st, and after the assassination, indeed, after Saturday evening, the 23d, when it was announced on television that they had a photograph of Lee Oswald holding two papers. I looked at this pile of mail waiting for him which consisted of these two newspapers, the Militant and the Worker, and I threw them away.
Mr.Jenner. You threw them away?
Mrs.Paine. Without opening them.
Mr.Jenner. Why did you throw them away?
Mrs.Paine. I was pleased to throw away anything I could. I just didn't want it.
Mr.Jenner. Well, my question or query, and I think expression of surprise,is activated by what I am about to ask you as to whether you might call that to the attention of the FBI?
Mrs.Paine. Oh, I am sure they knew.
Mr.Jenner. How are you sure they knew?
Mrs.Paine. Because mail stopped coming on the spot, nothing came after the assassination, I was certain it was still coming to some place.
Mr.Jenner. But this was almost instantaneously after you heard a broadcast that a photograph of him had been found in which he had been holding up the Militant.
But you immediately went to see if he had that mail and there was a copy of the Militant and you threw it away?
Mrs.Paine. Why not?
Mr.Jenner. Well, it occurred to me you might have called the FBI's attention to the fact that it had come to the house. But you didn't in any event?
Mrs.Paine. No; I didn't.
Mr.Jenner. Did you report it to the FBI in any of these interviews you had subsequently with them, or did they ask? It is two questions, if you will answer both.
Mrs.Paine. If so, it was quite recently.
Mr.Jenner. When did the other papers begin to arrive? Did I interrupt you before you had a chance to complete your answer to my question?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. The papers different from the Worker and the Militant, when did they begin to arrive at your home?
Mrs.Paine. Well, they began to arrive, I would say, some time after October 4th. That is, of course, my judgment. That is a rationalization.
Mr.Jenner. These magazines and newspapers you have recounted first appeared at your home after Lee Oswald came to Dallas and became employed or came to Dallas to live at your house and to seek employment?
Mrs.Paine. He came to Dallas, he lived in Dallas, but he used my house.
Mr.Jenner. He came to your house?
Mrs.Paine. As a residence, mailing address. Never asked to and I never complained but I noticed, of course, that he was using it as a mailing address.
Mr.Jenner. Up to that time and even though Marina was living with you nothing of that nature came to your home?
Mrs.Paine. What?
Mr.Jenner. Prior to the time that Lee arrived at your home on or about or on the 4th of October 1963, none of these newspapers or periodicals had come to your home, is that correct?
Mrs.Paine. That is correct.
Mr.Jenner. Was he a reader of the local newspaper?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. You were a subscriber to what?
Mrs.Paine. To the Irving newspaper and the Sunday Dallas Morning News.
Mr.Jenner. Did he read both of those?
Mrs.Paine. He was very interested in seeing the Sunday paper edition especially. He read both, to the best of my recollection.
Mr.Jenner. He also read the daily papers?
Mrs.Paine. Well, he wasn't there daily.
Mr.Jenner. When he was there he read it?
Mrs.Paine. The Irving paper didn't come out on Saturday, so it was only the Sunday papers.
Mr.Jenner. But there were occasions when you had issues, the Friday issue around or Thursday issue around your home?
Mrs.Paine. I don't recall his being interested in back issues.
Mr.Jenner. Are there any letters and communications between you and Marina or between you and Lee Oswald to which you have not called my attention?
Mrs.Paine. There never were any letters of any sort between me and Lee Oswald except unless you could include this English portion to which I have already called your attention in a letter to Marina.
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Paine. The only other letters—I have called your attention to all such letters, but I will have to wait until you are in Dallas to see the letters written since the assassination to Marina.
Mr.Jenner. Then I will ask you this question.
You produced for my inspection all of these letters other than the ones that I will see when I am in Dallas which you have identified as having been written subsequent to, subsequently to, November 22, 1963, is that correct?
Mrs.Paine. That is right, you have all the correspondence.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mrs.Paine. Wait, we did omit one letter which you have from Marina.
Mr.Jenner. Yes; I have it here.
Mrs.Paine. You have no gaps that I could supply you.
Mr.Jenner. I appreciate the fact I have that letter which we found not relevant and, therefore, I did not tender it. You have tendered to me everything other than those I will see when I reach Dallas.
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. Now, do you recall having a conversation with Dr. FroelichRainey——
SenatorCooper. May I ask, just a moment, the letter which has not been tendered and which was said not to berelevant——
Mrs.Paine. You have a copy of it.
SenatorCooper. To whom was that letter addressed?
Mr.Jenner. That is addressed to Marina.
SenatorCooper. May I ask, does counsel have a copy of that letter?
Mr.Jenner. Yes; I have a copy of the letter and I have preserved the original and I also have a typewritten copy.
SenatorCooper. It has not been offered as part of evidence?
Mr.Jenner. It has not been offered because it is irrelevant to anything referred to here and it also has a personal remark in it that Mrs. Paine would prefer not to have spread on the record.
Mrs.Paine. A remark not pertinent to the assassination or to the Oswalds but to my marriage.
Mr.Jenner. Is thename——
SenatorCooper. Let me just say for the record I think that will have to be a matter which will have to be considered by the members of the Commission.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
The letter to which you have reference you have exhibited to me, it is in your handwriting and it is in the same condition now as it was, a copy of a letter as I recall?
Mrs.Paine. Which letter are you referring to?
(Short recess.)
SenatorCooper. On the record.
Mr.Jenner. I will do some jumping around because we have some tag ends to cover, I hope in a hurry.
You left New Orleans on September 23, was that in the morning or afternoon?
Mrs.Paine. It was early morning.
Mr.Jenner. Early morning.
Did you drive right straight through to Irving?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. You stopped then the evening of September 23, is that right?
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. And where, in Texas?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; it was just over the line into Texas.
Mr.Jenner. Do you remember the name of the town?
Mrs.Paine. No; I don't.
Mr.Jenner. Did you pay for that lodging?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; I did.
Mr.Jenner. By the way, was there ever any financial arrangement agreed on with respect to Marina's stay with you in the fall of 1963 which would involve your giving her $10 a week or any other sum?
Mrs.Paine. No; nothing was said beyond this attempt in the letter that I made to make her feel that she would not be having to ask for every need.
Mr.Jenner. We have those letters now in evidence and you testified about them yesterday?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Returning your attention to the time that Mr. Oswald, Lee Oswald, came to Irving in October of 1963, that is October 4, and reported to you he hitchhiked, you recall that?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. He remained overnight the night of the 4th of October, is that correct?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; he did.
Mr.Jenner. Did he return to Dallas the following day?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. Was he driven back to Dallas within the next couple of days by you?
Mrs.Paine. My recollection is that I took him to the bus station around noon on the 7th of October, that is a Monday.
Mr.Jenner. You did not drive him all the way into downtown Dallas?
Mrs.Paine. No; I don't believe so.
Mr.Jenner. Marina has testified, or at least when interviewed by the FBI stated, that you did drive Lee to downtown Dallas.
Mrs.Paine. I have given you all my recollections on this matter, haven't I, for the record?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Paine.With——
Mr.Jenner. Even after further reflection last night your recollection is as you have already stated?
Mrs.Paine. That there was an occasion that we were going in with a Russian typewriter on an errand of mine to get that fixed, and I drove him to Ross Street and some crossroad, and he said was near to the employment office.
Mr.Jenner. I see.
What occasion was this?
Mrs.Paine. What day?
Mr.Jenner. Day, yes; please?
Mrs.Paine. I don't recall but I would be fairly certain it was a Monday.
Mr.Jenner. And had he been out at your home over the weekend?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; that is my best recollection.
Mr.Jenner. Was it after he had become employed with the Book Depository?
Mrs.Paine. No; he was on his way to the employment office. This was his purpose.
Mr.Jenner. So it was sometime prior to the weekend, was it, that the matter of employment by the Texas Book Depository had arisen?
Mrs.Paine. I would judge that it has to have been on the 14th, which was Monday prior and indeed morning prior to the conversation at Mrs. Roberts about this.
Mr.Jenner. I see.
Mrs.Paine. But I may be wrong about that, but it is my best recollection.
Mr.Jenner. Did the conversation at Mrs. Roberts take place on the 15th of October?
Mrs.Paine. No; on the 14th.
Mr.Jenner. On the 14th. That was what day of the week?
Mrs.Paine. Monday.
Mr.Jenner. Did you drive him into Dallas on that day?
Mrs.Paine. I can't think when else it could have been.
Mr.Jenner. And to the best of your recollection that is probably the day then?
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. Did you indicate—did Marina accompany you?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did she or you indicate any interest in driving by and seeing his apartment or room?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. Was there any discussion at any time, Mrs. Paine, in your homeor otherwise, with Marina or with Lee, as to the appearance of his rooming house, curtains flooring, what it was like?
Mrs.Paine. The only thing I recall is that he described it as more comfortable than the $7 room he had occupied, told me the cost of it, said that he could watch television and had privileges to use the refrigerator.
Mr.Jenner. But other than that he didn't describe it?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. Was there ever any discussion of any need on his part for curtains, that he liked to brighten up his room or in any respect, any additional appointments?
Mrs.Paine. There was no such conversation at any time.
Mr.Jenner. You are acquainted with Dr. Froelich Rainey?
Mrs.Paine. I am.
Mr.Jenner. He is—what is his position with the University of Pennsylvania. He has a position with the University of Pennsylvania Music Department, has he not?
Mrs.Paine. He is the curator, the head man, as I understand it.
Mr.Jenner. You are acquainted with his wife Penelope?
Mrs.Paine. I am.
Mr.Jenner. Does Penelope speak Russian fluently?
Mrs.Paine. She has a very good command of the language. I think she has not had very much opportunity to use it in speech.
Mr.Jenner. Have you had occasion to inquire of Mrs. Rainey as to whether she might assist you with your Russian studies?
Mrs.Paine. Well, there was never any discussion of assisting me in the role of tutor. She did some years ago loan me a record which I taped that was in Russian, and we visited this fall as part of my trip in the east.
Mr.Jenner. You mean, summer, not fall.
Mrs.Paine. Well, it was, yes, August probably or early September that I saw her.
Mr.Jenner. And you do recall during the course of your summer trip before you went, that is you wound up in New Orleans from that trip?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. So we are talking about the same trip.
Mrs.Paine. That is the same trip.
Mr.Jenner. You did see her?
Mrs.Paine. I did.
Mr.Jenner. Where in Philadelphia?
Mrs.Paine. At her home.
Mr.Jenner. Where is her home?
Mrs.Paine. Her home is not far from the residence where I was staying in Paoli. It is suburban Philadelphia.
Mr.Jenner. Did you have occasion then to report to her that—about Marina?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; I did.
Mr.Jenner. And advise her in that respect, that she was married to an American who is now residing in New Orleans?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did you say to her that the, I will call the, lady, Marina, but it is stated differently here, appeared to be having marital difficulties with her husband.
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And would you state what your remarks were to Mrs. Rainey in that connection? That is the treatment of Marina by Lee?
Mrs.Paine. I don't recall exactly what I said as to the treatment, but that Marina was unhappy, and that I thought she should have some alternative to living with him, and that I would probably, when down there, offer for her to live at my home. She asked me what Michael thought of that, and I said we had discussed it but that Michael and I were not living together, and this was news to Mrs. Rainey, and concerned her deeply.
And I said that I was lonely. I recall one important thing in what I said to Mrs. Rainey, that I never said in conversation to anyone else, that I was worried about offending Lee, that if offended, or if he felt I was taking his wife or notdoing what he wanted in the situation, that he might be angry with me, and that I didn't want to subject myself or my children to possible harm from him.
She is the only person to whom I mentioned my thought that he might possibly be a person who could cause harm, and there was a very, not a strong thought in my thinking at all, but should be registered as having at least occurred to me, that he could be angry to the point of violence in relation to me.
Mr.Jenner. To the point of physical violence in relation to you?
Mrs.Paine. In relation to me in this situation and I wanted to be perfectly sure before I made any offer definite that he was not, in fact, angry at my offer.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall visiting your sister Sylvia?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; indeed.
Mr.Jenner. You were there about 3 days?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did you discuss Marina when you were with your sister?
Mrs.Paine. Very probably.
Mr.Jenner. And in substance did you say to your sister that you intended to go to New Orleans in the course of your trip within about 2 weeks to pick up Marina who was pregnant, she was the wife of an American, and she was to live with you in your home in Texas?
Did you say that much to her?
Mrs.Paine. Well, I probably said it depended on whether she wanted to go.
Mr.Jenner. Other than that have I stated the substance in that connection?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did you also say to her that Marina wanted to leave her husband who was not supporting her, and was a jerk as far as his husband's role was concerned?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. You did not.
What did you say, did you say anything of similar import?
Mrs.Paine. Similar?
Mr.Jenner. That is, you did imply to your sister, did you, that Marina wished to leave Lee?
Mrs.Paine. No. I would guess that was her interpretation.
Mr.Jenner. What did you say in this connection, please?
Mrs.Paine. I don't recall exactly.
Mr.Jenner. Well, did you say, did you express your personal opinion to your sister as to Lee Oswald?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. What did you say in that connection.
Mrs.Paine. My opinion of Lee Oswald was quite negative all the way upto——
Mr.Jenner. This is what you have told your sister now, that is what I want.
Mrs.Paine. I can't recall exactly what I told my sister at all.
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Paine. I talked with virtually everyone I saw this summer, and there were a great many people, about this friend because it was important to me. I have already testified that I thought Lee didn't care enough about his wife and wasn't being a proper husband in the spring and through the summer, therefore, and it wasn't until I was in New Orleans that I thought he cared at all.
Mr.Jenner. I am just confining myself to this period. During this period as you visited your friends you did have occasion to express a negative opinion on your part with respect to Lee Oswald?
Mrs.Paine. Indeed.
Mr.Jenner. Is that correct?
Mrs.Paine. That is correct.
Mr.Jenner. It might have been more or less forceful in that expression of your opinion depending on the person with whom or to whom you were talking.
Mrs.Paine. I would say that my sister's reaction to what I said was more forceful than what I said.
Mr.Jenner. But you did express a negative opinion.
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. You testified that—are you acquainted with a Dr. Carl Hyde?
Mrs.Paine. He is my brother.
Mr.Jenner. Did you discuss Marina and Lee with him when you visited there in September of 1963?
Mrs.Paine. I recall particularly an evening discussion with his wife where I told quite a lot about the contact that I had had with Marina.
Mr.Jenner. Did you state to either or both of them that Marina's husband was a Communist?
Mrs.Paine. That is possible. I think it is more likely that I referred to him as a Marxist.
Mr.Jenner. Now, what is the distinction between a Marxist and a Communist in your mind?
Mrs.Paine. Distinction is not clear to me, but I judged that Lee felt there was a distinction ashe——
Mr.Jenner. What was your impression as to what Lee thought a Marxist was as distinguished from a Communist?
Mrs.Paine. I have no clear impression.
Mr.Jenner. If I suggested the possibility of, that a Marxist tenet was the change in government by violent means rather than gradual process?
Mrs.Paine. This is not something I ever heard from him.
Mr.Jenner. Was it anything that you ever thought of?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. A concept that you ever had?
Mrs.Paine. In describing Marxism?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever discuss with Lee why he was—he always took care to distinguish to say that he was a Marxist as distinguished from a Communist?
Mrs.Paine. No; I never did.
Mr.Jenner. Did you form an impression as to what he intended to convey by that description?
Mrs.Paine. He intended to convey that he was more pure, I felt, that was my impression.
Mr.Jenner. More pure than what?
Mrs.Paine. Than a Communist.
Mr.Jenner. Did you also say to your brother or your sister or both of them that Lee had not permitted her to learn English, that is Marina?
Mrs.Paine. Very probably.
Mr.Jenner. And that Marina was experiencing marital difficulties with Lee?
Mrs.Paine. Very probably.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever say that Marina did not share her husband's political views?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; I did.
Mr.Jenner. Excuse me, that is to your brother or sister or both of them?
Mrs.Paine. To the best of my recollection.
Mr.Jenner. Speaking of the marital difficulties, did you ever have the feeling that Marina was in some measure a contribution—contributed toward those, causing those difficulties or a catalyst from which those difficulties resulted?
Mrs.Paine. I didn't have that feeling.
Mr.Jenner. You did not.
What feeling did you have in that direction, assuming you had one?
Mrs.Paine. All the time I knew her or at least any references from her of the matter to their marriage left me with the impression that it was hopeful that though it was difficult they could work out their difficulties.
Mr.Jenner. And that she was desirous of attempting to do so?
Mrs.Paine. She was desirous of attempting to do so though still leaving open the possibility that in time she would have to conclude that she couldn't.
She by no means simply gave in to him on every point or let him walk on her, but that, I would say, is a healthy thing for the marriage rather than anything contributive to any fundamental difficulty in it.
Mr.Jenner. Have you completed your answer?
SenatorCooper. May I ask a question?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
SenatorCooper. Did Marina ever indicate to you in any way whether or not she felt, after she came to the United States and saw Lee Oswald in his country in which he had been born and reared, that she found him unintelligent or a person of mean ability, small ability or poor background?
Did she ever have any comment in any way on his being inferior?
Mrs.Paine. I don't recall her ever commenting in that way.
Mr.Jenner. Was she disappointed in any way after he returned to the United States?
Mrs.Paine. I don't recall her ever saying that.
I had heard Mrs. Ford express such an opinion.
Mr.Jenner. That would be hearsay?
Mrs.Paine. That would be hearsay.
Mr.Jenner. Did you know, are you familiar with the report that appeared in the Fort Worth Press on January 15, 1964, reporting that you had told Marvin Lane that Lee could not have taken the rifle from your garage and gone to practice without your knowledge?
Do you recall that?
Mrs.Paine. I do.
Mr.Jenner. Mark Lane.
Mrs.Paine. It is Mark but that perhaps was in the Fort Worth Press. I recall that.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever make that statement to a reporter for the Fort Worth Press?
Mrs.Paine. Yes, I did; with slight variation. It always came out a more definite statement in the press than I meant to make it.
Mr.Jenner. What did you say to the reporter then?
Mrs.Paine. I said I did not see how he could have taken the gun from the garage without my knowing it. There were two weekends particularly in question which had been reported in the Press that someone had seen him at a firing range, one being the weekend of the 9th and 10th, and I was home virtually all of that weekend except Monday the 11th as I have already described.
The other being the following weekend, and I didn't see how he could have—the weekend he was not out at my house, I didn't see how he could have come out, taken the gun, gone away without my knowledge, and if the gun had not been in that garage that weekend, I didn't see what the purpose of his coming out the 21st of November was in the situation.
And this is what I told Mr. Tackett of the Fort Worth Press.
Mr.Jenner. Did you also tell Mr. Tackett in addition to, that his reasons for his not engaging in rifle practice that weekend or any other weekend was that he couldn't drive an automobile?
Mrs.Paine. Very probably.
Mr.Jenner. And also that he couldn't have walked that far for rifle practice?
Mrs.Paine. Yes. By that far I mean there is no place you can walk to from my house, not only not to the firing range, but to an open enough place where you could fire. It would be difficult to walk that far.
Mr.Jenner. Where was the firing range at which it was suggested he practiced?
Mrs.Paine. I don't know exactly. It was in the Grand Prairie area, just south of where we are located. But it would be a 15-minute car drive I would expect.
Mr.Jenner. From your home to the firing range. Do you know, did you ever go to the firing range to see where it really was located?
Mrs.Paine. No; I never did.
Mr.Jenner. You are relying on the newspapers, are you?
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. When you say thinking of its location you are thinking of the general location of Grand Prairie, Tex.
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
SenatorCooper. Were you asked to give your opinion on that?
Mrs.Paine. I think so.
SenatorCooper. Why would you submit that as your conclusion that he could not have taken the rifle away, could not have got to a firing range?
Mrs.Paine. The only thing—well—it had been reported in the press that he had been seen at a firing range or someone said he had seen him, Oswald, at a firing range on the weekend of the 9th, 10th, and the following weekend and it seemed to me important to say what I could on the subject if I had any contrary information, and I did any time the reporters asked me about it.
SenatorCooper. When you made a statement about the rifle, were you considering the fact that he had left your house on the morning of the 21st before you got up?
Mrs.Paine. I don't understand the question.
SenatorCooper. The 22d, yes.
Mrs.Paine. Let me say in making such a statement to the Press, I was not implying that I didn't think Oswald had taken a gun from my house on the morning of the 22d. Now, you ask the question again and perhaps I will understand it better.
SenatorCooper. Were you referring to two weekends when he left your house in saying that he couldn't take the gun or were you including also the morning of the 22d?
Mrs.Paine. I was definitely not including the morning of the 22d.
Mr.Jenner. May I proceed, Mr. Chairman.
SenatorCooper. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Do you know of any occasion when Lee and Marina did or might have visited the welfare office of the Salvation Army on your return from Dallas?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. Having in mind all your contact with them during that period, do you have an opinion as to whether that could have taken place, that they did visit the Salvation Army Welfare Office?
Mrs.Paine. It was suggested that this was in the fall of the year?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Paine. I don't know of any time that they could have.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall in your discussion with Mr. Randle when the matter of the Texas School Book Depository possible employment came up, did you make a statement to Mrs. Randle suggesting that she not mention to anyone that Marina was of Russian birth?
Mrs.Paine. After he had been hired I told Mrs. Randle that Lee was worried about losing his job, and asked her if she would mention to Wesley that he was worried about this, and would prefer for it not to be talked about where he worked, that he had a Russian wife as that would, therefore, bring up the subject of his having been in Russia and, therefore, the subject of his having tried to change his citizenship there, and she said to me oh, she was certain that Wesley would not talk about it.
Mr.Jenner. That was the extent of the conversation?
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. And its thrust, rather than the cryptic thrust I have given it?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Do you know a Frank Krystinik?
Mrs.Paine. I do.
Mr.Jenner. He is an associate of your husband?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did you have occasion to say to him at any time that Lee Oswald was not properly taking care of his wife and children?
Mrs.Paine. I could well have given him that impression or given him that impression through Michael. I didn't very often see Frank.
Mr.Jenner. But you could have made that remark to him?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. You made similar remarks to others?
Mrs.Paine. Indeed, I have.
Mr.Jenner. During the time you visited with your mother-in-law, Mrs. Young, did you say to her that Lee wished his wife to return to Russia alone?
Mrs.Paine. I very probably did.
Mr.Jenner. And also that he did not wish his wife to learn to speak English?
Mrs.Paine. I would judge that I did.
Mr.Jenner. And that Marina did not wish to return to Russia?
Mrs.Paine. That is correct.
SenatorCooper. While you are getting your papers together can I ask a few questions?
Mr.Jenner. Surely.
SenatorCooper. I refer to November 22 when the police came and you and Marina went into the garage with the police, you testified about that. Then you discovered that there wasn't anything in the blanket.
Now, at a later time, I believe you testified that the police showed Marina a rifle and asked her if she could identify this rifle that she had seen in Lee's possession.
What did she say about it?
Mrs.Paine. She said that her husband's rifle had been a dark gun, that she was not certain that that was the one. That she could not absolutely recall whether there had been a telescopic sight on his gun or not.
SenatorCooper. Was she speaking in Russian?
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
SenatorCooper. Were you translating?
Mrs.Paine. No, Mr. Mamantov.
SenatorCooper. Were you following what she said?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; indeed.
SenatorCooper. How did she designate the sight? What words?
Mrs.Paine. It is a Russian word that sounded to me like binocular, as I recall.
SenatorCooper. Did she refer to it as a sighting device not in the words sighting device, but did her language in substance as she described it give reference to it as a sight on the rifle?
Mrs.Paine. My judgment is that Mr. Mamantov used the word in reference to it first, you see, and then she simply used the same word.
Asking her was she acquainted with this, and giving the word in Russian, and she said she wasn't certain she had seen that binocular or whatever the word used was on the gun.
SenatorCooper. Now, at any time on the 22d, after she had admitted that she had seen a rifle before, and in your talk with her, either on the way into the police station or any other time, did she say anything more about having seen the rifle before?
Mrs.Paine. No; she didn't.
SenatorCooper. To you? What?
Mrs.Paine. No.
SenatorCooper. Did you know who brought Lee Oswald to your house from Dallas when he would come for his visits?
Mrs.Paine. After he had gotten his job it was my understanding that he came with Wesley Frazier.
SenatorCooper. Did you ever hear him say that anyone else brought him to your house?
Mrs.Paine. No; I didn't.
SenatorCooper. Did he ever say that any fellow worker at the Depository brought him to the house?
Mrs.Paine. Other than Wesley Frazier; no.
SenatorCooper. Did he ever mention by name or any description any of the people with whom he worked at the Depository?
Mrs.Paine. Except for Wesley; no.
SenatorCooper. He never mentioned any one of his fellow workers, associates there?
Mrs.Paine. None.
SenatorCooper. Did he ever refer to them in any way as liking or disliking them as a group or as individuals?
Mrs.Paine. No; he didn't.
SenatorCooper. In your talks with him or in hearing him talk did he ever refer to any persons who were friends of his or associates?
Mrs.Paine. I never heard him mention anyone.
SenatorCooper. He never mentioned the name of any person?
Mrs.Paine. Not anyone. He mentioned a friend in Houston as I have already testified, no name and I was wondering whether there was any such friend, I recall that. That is absolutely the only reference I can recall.
SenatorCooper. You said that you told someone that Marina did not agree with his political views?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
SenatorCooper. How did you know that?
Mrs.Paine. She told me she wasn't interested in politics. She told me indeed that Lee complained about her lack of interest.
SenatorCooper. That is something different from saying that she didn't agree with them.
Mrs.Paine. Well, she did say that she didn't like his having passed out leaflets in New Orleans. This is still different from saying she disagreed, though. But that is the most I can say.
SenatorCooper. Did she ever tell her what her political views were, if any?
Mrs.Paine. She said she didn't consider herself a person interested in politics.She——
SenatorCooper. Did she ever refer to Lee being a Marxist or a Communist?
Mrs.Paine. I don't recall such a reference ever.
SenatorCooper. Did she ever tell you whether or not she was a Marxist or a Communist?
Mrs.Paine. No. I assumed she was not either.
SenatorCooper. What?
Mrs.Paine. I assumed she was not either. She did at one point poke fun at the Party faithful who attended a Young Communist meeting in Minsk, whom she considered a dull lot and the meetings quite dull.
SenatorCooper. I missed the early part of your testimony so you may have testified to this, but I thought that I recalled that you did answer a question addressed to you by someone, a member of the Commission or counsel, in which you said that you were attracted to the Oswalds when you first met them, one, because you wanted to perfect your own Russian, and did you say, too, that you were interested because of the fact that he had been a defector and had returned and it was an unusual circumstance which interested you?
Mrs.Paine. It made him an odd person.
SenatorCooper. What?
Mrs.Paine. It made him an odd person. I was interested in the curious sense of what could have motivated him to do this.
SenatorCooper. Having that interest, didn't you ever talk to him about it, inquire about his experience?
Mrs.Paine. I guess I wasn't interested enough.
SenatorCooper. What led him to do it?
Mrs.Paine. And as I have already testified he always wanted to speak Russian to me, which shortens my tongue. I can't say as much or raise as many questions.
SenatorCooper. Well, did you try to search out the reasons for his defection and the reasons for returning?
Mrs.Paine. No; I didn't.
SenatorCooper. And his political views, his economic views, that kind of thing?
Mrs.Paine. No; I regret now that I didn't take any interest, but I did not.
SenatorCooper. You said that, in answer to counsel that, you either did tell people or probably told them that you believed Lee Oswald was a Communist.
Mrs.Paine. It is my impression I spoke of him as he spoke of himself as a Marxist.
SenatorCooper. And you think, you believe, that has some relationship to communism?
Mrs.Paine. Oh; yes.
SenatorCooper. I think you have stated that you didn't believe it was necessary for a person to actually be a member of the Communist Party to be a Communist in his views?
Mrs.Paine. Yes. But that I considered it something less than actually accurate to call such a person a Communist that went onbeing——
SenatorCooper. Other than the persons you have named in your testimony as having come to your house, was there anyone else who ever came to your house, who talked to Lee Oswald or Marina?
Mrs.Paine. I recall no one other than the people I have mentioned, sir.
SenatorCooper. Knowing that he was as you have described in your own words, a Marxist, were you concerned at all about that or worried about that, as being in your home?
Mrs.Paine. Well, as I have described in testimony, I asked myself whether or not he might be a spy. I was not at all worried about ideology contrary to my own or with which I disagreed, and it looked to me that he was a person of this ideology or philosophy which he calls Marxism, indeed nearly a religion.
But not that he was in any way dangerous because of these beliefs.
SenatorCooper. Thinking now and then that he might be a spy or in the employ of the Soviet Union, were you concerned about the fact that such person who might be a spy or an agent of the Soviet Union was living in your house?
Mrs.Paine. Well, if you recall my testimony I concluded that he was not, and also I was pleased that the FBI had come and I felt that they would worry about that, and that I didn't need to worry about any risk to me of public censure for my befriending such a person.
SenatorCooper. You told about the newspapers and periodicals that he received and read.
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
SenatorCooper. Did he also have any books that he read while he was at your house?
Mrs.Paine. I don't recall his reading books while he was at my house. He watched television a great deal but I don't recall his reading books.
SenatorCooper. You said that he did not have very ample means, financial means.
Were you struck with the fact that he was able to have these newspapers sent to him from Russia, England, New York?
Mrs.Paine. Yes, Iobserved——
SenatorCooper. The Communist Worker comes from New York.
Mrs.Paine. Yes, nothing from England, I recall, but he certainly considered these valuable. He was willing to spend money on these, I observed that, yes. It was rather unusual or unlike the rest of his behavior in that he did spend money for these periodicals.
SenatorCooper. Did you ever lend any money to either Marina or Lee Oswald?
Mrs.Paine. No.
SenatorCooper. What?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever give them any money?
Mrs.Paine. Cash money; no.
SenatorCooper. What?
Mrs.Paine. Cash; no.
Of course, I bought groceries but that is not what you are asking.
SenatorCooper. You gave no money in the sense that you turned over physical possession of it?
Mrs.Paine. I did not.
SenatorCooper. To either Lee or Marina?
Mrs.Paine. No; not at any time to either one.
SenatorCooper. You did help them in the sense that you provided a home for Marina and on occasion provided food for Lee?
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
SenatorCooper. I have just one or two more.
You said at one time you came to the conclusion that he wasn't an agent or spy because you didn't think he was intelligent enough.
I believe you said that.
Mrs.Paine. That and the fact that as far as I could see had no contacts or any means of getting any information that would have been of any interest to the Soviet Union.
SenatorCooper. Yet he was intelligent enough that he had learned to speak Russian.
Mrs.Paine. His Russian was poor. His vocabulary was large, his grammar never was good.
SenatorCooper. You said that he had, I believe, had the initiative to go to Russia, not as a tourist but as for reasons that he had developed himself, and that he came back when he made up his mind to come and was able to bring his wife.
You knew he moved around rather quickly, didn't you? He was in NewOrleans——
Mrs.Paine. In this country?
SenatorCooper. Yes.
Mrs.Paine. No, I knew he had been in Fort Worth and had come to Dallas to seek work and then losing work had gone back to New Orleans and then back to Dallas.
SenatorCooper. What made you willing to have this man, you have said, this very curious man, from all you have described about him, to have him in your house?
Mrs.Paine. He was Marina's husband and I like her, and I, as I have described, was both lonely and interested in learning the Russian language. I would have been happy had he never come out, indeed happier had he not come out on the weekends.
But they were not separated as a married couple nor contemplating such separation, and I didn't feel that this—it was appropriate for him to have to stay away. I did not ask that.
SenatorCooper. Prior to the time that Marina left your home—the day of the assassination, wasn't it?