Mr.Williams. I didn't tell them I was using the stairs. I came back down to the fifth floor in the same elevator I came up to the sixth floor on.
Mr.Ball. You did?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Now, also, on January 14th, did you remember talking to a couple of agents named Carter and Griffin?
Mr.Williams. I can't remember their names, but I am sure I did.
Mr.Ball. You talked to a good many of them?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Well, they reported here that you went down to the fifth floor, and you did so by going down on the west elevator.
Mr.Williams. The east elevator. The reason I was able to determine whether it was the east elevator is because I think when you questioned us the other day, the other fellows—I told you I didn't remember which elevator first. But the other fellows said they had the west elevator. There are only two elevators. If they are sure they had the west elevator up, that only leaves the east elevator.
Mr.Ball. When you got to the fifth floor and left the elevator, at that time were both elevators on the fifth floor?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Both west and east?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir, as I remember.
Mr.Ball. The other day, when I talked to you in Dallas, on Friday 20March——
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And at that time were you able—did you remember which elevator it was?
Mr.Williams. Which elevator I had?
Mr.Ball. What you had come down from six to five on.
Mr.Williams. As I remember, I first said I wasn't sure. After the fellows said they brought the west elevator up, I said I must have the east elevator.
Mr.Ball. Is it fair to say now that you don't have any definite memory as to whether it was the east or west elevator?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir. I believe that would be true.
Mr.Ball. But you did bring an elevator up?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr.Ball. Now, when you came down there and got off that elevator, did you notice that the other elevator was also on that floor?
Mr.Williams. Well, at the time I didn't notice it.
Mr.Ball. Did you, later?
Mr.Williams. No, sir; as I remember.
Mr.Ball. You don't remember?
Mr.Williams. No, sir; I don't remember.
Mr.Ball. When you got off the elevator, you went over to the front of the building, the Elm Street side.
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr.Ball. And you saw Normanand——
Mr.Dulles. Mr. Ball, could we get the time element?
Mr.Ball. I am going to bring that in.
Mr.Dulles. All right. I will bide my time.
Mr.Ball. You went over to the front of the building, did you?
Mr.Williams. Yes.
Mr.Ball. And you saw your two friends, Norman and Jarman?
Mr.Williams. Yes.
Mr.Ball. You had known them before?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Now, do you know what time that was?
Mr.Williams. I do not know the exact time.
Mr.Ball. Itwas——
Mr.Williams. It was after I had left the sixth floor, after I had eaten the chicken sandwich. I finished the chicken sandwich maybe 10 or 15 minutes after 12. I could say approximately what time it was.
Mr.Ball. Approximately what time was it?
Mr.Williams. Approximately 12:20, maybe.
Mr.Ball. Well, now, when you talked to the FBI on the 23d day of November, you said that you went up to the sixth floor about 12 noon with your lunch, and you stayed only about 3 minutes, and seeing no one you came down to the fifth floor, using the stairs at the west end of the building.
Now, do you think you stayed longer than 3 minutes up there?
Mr.Williams. I am sure I stayed longer than 3 minutes.
Mr.Ball. Do you remember telling the FBI you only stayed 3 minutes up there?
Mr.Williams. I do not remember telling them I only stayed 3 minutes.
Mr.Ball. And then on this 14th of January 1964, when you talked to Carter and Griffin, they reported that you told them you went down to the fifth floor around 12:05 p.m., and that around 12:30 p.m. you were watching the Presidential parade.
Now, do you remember telling them you went down there about 12:05 p.m.?
Mr.Williams. I remember telling the fellows that—they asked me first, they said, "How long did it take you to finish the sandwich?" I said, "Maybe 5 to 10 minutes, maybe 15 minutes." Just like I said here. I don't remember saying for a definite answer that it was 5 minutes.
Mr.Ball. Well, is it fair to say that you do not remember the exact time now?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. You do remember, though, that you ate your lunch and drank your pop, your Doctor Pepper, before you came down?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Were you there any length of time before the Presidential parade came by?
Mr.Williams. Well, sir, on the fifth floor?
Mr.Ball. On the fifth floor, yes, with your two friends, Norman and Jarman.
Mr.Williams. I was there a while before it came around.
Mr.Ball. You were at what window?
Mr.Williams. Well, I believe we was on the east side of the window, and I think Hank was—I think he was directly under the sixth floor window where Oswald was supposed to have shot the President from. And I think I was a window over. And I think James Jarman was two or three windows over.
Mr.Ball. I will show you a picture here, which is 482. Do you see yourself in that picture?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir; I am right here.
Mr.Ball. All right. Draw a dark line down there towards you and put an arrow on the end. I will mark that W; the arrow W on 482 points to you, Bonnie Ray Williams.
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Is that about the way you were sitting in the window?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And you were watching the parade?
Mr.Williams. I don't remember whether I was watching the parade here or not. But I was in the window, that window.
Mr.Ball. Do you recognize the man in the window to the right of us as we look at the picture?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir; that is Harold Norman.
Mr.Ball. Now, here is another photograph which is 480, giving more of the front of the building. Can you tell us in what window your friend Jarman was sitting, or watching?
Mr.Williams. I believe this is James Jarman right here.
Mr.Ball. All right. Draw a line down to that on 480. Draw an arrow to the window.
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. We will mark that W on 480.
Now, were you boys sitting down or standing up?
Mr.Williams. Are you referring to the picture?
Mr.Ball. No, I am talking about your memory now as to what you were doing at the time you were watching for the Presidential parade.
Mr.Williams. At the time we were watching for the President's parade, I believe I was in a squat position. But I don't remember whether I was on my knees or just squatting on the balls of my feet.
Mr.Ball. When the parade went by, how were you—squatting?
Mr.Williams. As the parade went by, I was in a squat position.
Mr.Ball. Last Friday you went up to the sixth floor, or the fifth floor with us, and a photographer, and you three men got into position, did you not?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. To have your pictures taken.
Mr.Williams. Yes; we did.
Mr.Ball. I can only ask you about your position. First of all, we will mark this as 485.
(The photograph was marked Commission Exhibit No. 485 for identification.)
Mr.Ball. I will mark this photograph as 486.
(The photograph was marked Exhibit No. 486 for identification.)
Mr.Ball. 485 is a picture of three men. You were there when that picture was taken?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Who are the men who are there?
Mr.Williams. First of all in the corner of the east of the building is Harold Norman. Secondly, the fellow over from me, that would be James Jarman.
Mr.Ball. Who is the man in the center?
Mr.Williams. That is me.
Mr.Ball. Is that about the way you were sitting when you watched the parade?
Mr.Williams. I believe it was at the time.
Mr.Ball. Now, I show you 486 and who are the men in that position?
Mr.Williams. In this picture here, 486—this fellow—the other fellow in the corner, in the east of the building, is Harold Norman. I am in the window next to him.
Mr.Ball. Your back is to the picture?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Is that about the position you were in when the President's parade went by?
Mr.Williams. I believe it was.
Mr.Ball. Now, what do you remember happened when the President's parade went by?
Mr.Williams. Well, to the best of my ability, what I remember was first coming off of—I believe it was Main Street—well, two motorcycle policemen came around. I think it was two or maybe three. They came around first. And then I think the President's car followed. And I believe a car was behind it carrying the Vice President, as I remember. I am not sure about it. President Kennedy was sitting in the back seat. I believe his wife was in the back seat. I believe Governor Connally was sitting in the front seat of the car as it was going down the street—Ibelieve——
Mr.McCloy. What street are you talking about there? Are you talking about Main Street, Houston Street, or Elm Street?
Mr.Williams. First of all, as I say, they was coming off of Main Street. Then as it turned the corner, the corner which I am speaking of, most people refer to it as Elm Street. But it is not really Elm Street. I believe it is the start of the turnpike, because Elm Street runs parallel with the building, but comes to a dead end.
Mr.Ball. Did you see the parade come up Houston, north on Houston?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr.Ball. And then you saw it turn to the left in front of your building?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Now tell us what happened after the President's car had passed your window.
Mr.Williams. After the President's car had passed my window, the last thing I remember seeing him do was, you know—it seemed to me he had a habit of pushing his hair back. The last thing I saw him do was he pushed his hand up like this. I assumed he was brushing his hair back. And then the thing that happened then was a loud shot—first I thought they were saluting the President, somebody—even maybe a motorcycle backfire. The first shot—there was two shots rather close together. The second and the third shot was closer together than the first shot and the second shot, as I remember.
Mr.Ball. Now, was your head out the window?
Mr.Williams. I could not say for sure. I do not remember.
Mr.Ball. Did you notice—where did you think the shots came from?
Mr.Williams. Well, the first shot—I really did not pay any attention to it, because I did not know what was happening. The second shot, it sounded like it was right in the building, the second and third shot. And it sounded—it even shook the building, the side we were on. Cement fell on my head.
Mr.Ball. You say cement fell on your head?
Mr.Williams. Cement, gravel, dirt, or something, from the old building, because it shook the windows and everything. Harold was sitting next to me, and he said it came right from over our head. If you want to know my exact words, I could tell you.
Mr.Ball. Tell us.
Mr.Williams. My exact words were, "No bull shit." And we jumped up.
Mr.Ball. Norman said what?
Mr.Williams. He said it came directly over our heads. "I can even hear the shell being ejected from the gun hitting the floor." But I did not hear the shell being ejected from the gun, probably because I wasn't paying attention.
Mr.Ball. Norman said he could hear it?
Mr.Williams. He said he could hear it. He was directly under the window that Oswald shot from.
Mr.Ball. He was directly under. He told you as he got up from the window that he could hear the shells ejected from the gun?
Mr.Williams. Yes; he did.
Mr.Ball. After he made the statement that you mentioned, he thought it came from overhead, and you made some statement, did Jarman say anything?
Mr.Williams. I think Jarman, he—I think he moved before any of us. He moved towards us, and he said, "Man, somebody is shooting at the President." And I think I said again. "No bull shit." And then we all kind of got excited, you know, and, as I remember, I don't remember him saying that he thought the shots came from overhead. But we all decided we would run down to the west side of the building.
Mr.Ball. You ran down to the west side of the building?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
RepresentativeFord. Ran down to the west side? You mean you were still on the fifth floor?
Mr.Williams. Yes; we were on the fifth floor, the east side of the building. We saw the policemen and people running, scared, running—there are some tracks on the west side of the building, railroad tracks. They were running towards that way. And we thought maybe—well, to ourself, we know the shots practically came from over our head. But since everybody was running, you know, to the west side of the building, towards the railroad tracks, we assumed maybe somebody was down there. And so we all ran that way, the way that the people was running, and we was looking out the window.
Mr.Ball. When the cement fell on your head, did either one of the men notice it and say anything about it?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir. I believe Harold was the first one.
Mr.Ball. That is Hank Norman?
Mr.Williams. I believe he was the first one. He said "Man, I know it came from there. It even shook the building." He said, "You got something on your head." And then James Jarman said, "Yes, man, don't you brush it out." By that time I just forgot about it. But after I got downstairs I think I brushed it out anyway.
Mr.Ball. Jarman is called Junior?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Well, did Norman say anything about hearing the bolt of the rifle?
Mr.Williams. I don't remember him saying anything about it.
Mr.Ball. But you heard him say he could hear the cartridges?
Mr.Williams. I heard Harold Norman—pardon me, I thought you were saying James Jarman.
Mr.Ball. Did Norman say anything about the bolt?
Mr.Williams. Yes. He said he could hear the rifle, and it sounded like it was right above. He said he could hear the rifle being ejected, the shells hitting the floor.
Mr.Ball. But you could not hear this?
Mr.Williams. No; I could not hear it.
Mr.Ball. That was an old floor, wasn't it?
Mr.Williams. Yes; it was.
Mr.Ball. Could you see light through the floor from the fifth to the sixth floor as you would look above your window?
Mr.Williams. Well, at the time, that day of November 22d, I did not notice that. But the other day when you were questioning me, even after the thick new floor that was put over the old floor on the sixth floor, well, you still could see light. And the new floor extended a little beyond the old floor. So therefore I would say that you could see light much more when the old floor was there.
Mr.Ball. When you were there the other day, you looked up through a crack in the ceiling of the fifth floor?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Could you see the new floor?
Mr.Williams. You could. You could see daylight through.
Mr.Ball. Now, where was that crack with reference to the wall of the fifth floor?
Mr.Williams. With reference to the wall of the fifth floor, the crack that I was speaking about was directly over my head, and also directly over Norman's head.
Mr.Ball. And that would be where the floor would ordinarily make a joint with the wall?
Mr.Williams. With the wall.
Mr.Ball. You say you ran down to the west window.
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. From where you were?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir. First ofall——
Mr.Ball. I will take this samediagram——
Mr.Williams. First of all we made a stop before we got to the last stop that we was when the policeman came up.
Mr.Ball. Yes. That is where I want you to show me now, where you made the stop. This is the fifth floor diagram.
We will mark the fifth floor diagram as Exhibit 487.
(The document so described was marked Commission Exhibit No. 487 for identification.)
Mr.Ball. This is Elm Street on 487, and here are the windows where you have shown us you were standing.
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Now, will you show us the direction that you ran and also point to the window?
Mr.Williams. The direction that we ran after we heard the shots was—I would say I was in about this position here, this window. And we left like this. Harold was coming from here.
Mr.Ball. Let me show you the diagram. Here are these two pair of windows that are shown here on this diagram. This is the corner. Here is the next window, and here is the next window.
Now, take the pencil and show where you were and where you ran to.
Mr.Williams. I was right here.
Mr.Ball. Mark an X, and bring it on down, and show us.
Mr.Williams. I left here, and I came like this. The other fellows followed like this. We all was running this direction here. And I believe when we got to this point here, we stopped. And I am not sure, but I think James Jarman, he raised this window, this corner window here, and we all huddled in this corner window.
Mr.Ball. We will mark that window Y. And then you ran from X to Y, you three men?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Was the window open or closed?
Mr.Williams. I think it was closed at the time.
Mr.Ball. Was it opened then?
Mr.Williams. I believe James Jarman opened the window.
Mr.Ball. Now, the other day, when you were up here, you three men went to that window and stood there and had your picture taken, did you not?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. This window which you have shown as Y, in 487, the diagram of the fifth floor.
Mr.Williams. That's right.
Mr.Ball. Here is 488.
(The document so described was marked Commission Exhibit No. 488 for identification.)
Mr.Ball. Is that the window?
Mr.Williams. Yes; it is.
Mr.Ball. And is that about the way you were standing as you looked out to the west?
Mr.Williams. That is about the way we were standing.
Mr.Ball. Did you run fast towards the west?
Mr.Williams. We did. We moved rather fast. We was at a trotting pace.
Mr.Dulles. Was that to get a better view of the President's party in the car?
Mr.Williams. No, sir; I don't think—we knew the President had been shot at at that time. The car was gone, you know. It has speeded up and left. But the people, as I said before, the policemen and people were running towards the tracks. The tracks are at this side of the building. We wondered why they were running that way.
Mr.Dulles. How did you know the President was shot at this time?
Mr.Williams. We heard the shots, and we assumed somebody had shot him. And we decided to run down that way.
RepresentativeFord. Why didn't you go up to the sixth floor?
Mr.Williams. I really don't know. We just never did think about it. And after we had made this last stop, James Jarman said, "Maybe we better get the hell out of here." And so we just ran down to the fourth floor, and came on down. We never did think about it, going up to the sixth floor. Maybe it was just because we were frightened.
Mr.Dulles. Did you know the President had been hit?
Mr.Williams. Well, personally I did not know he had been hit, but I think Harold—I remember—I don't know whether he said or not—but I think he said he saw him slump. So from that I think we all assumed he had been shot at.
Mr.Dulles. One of the other two?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir; I think it was.
Mr.Dulles. Said that?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir; I believe that is what he said. Anyway, we knew he had been shot at.
Mr.Ball. After you left this corner window in the southwest corner that we have shown you the picture of as 488, where did you go?
Mr.Williams. Then we moved over to another window on the west side of the building.
Mr.Ball. Let's go back to the diagram of the fifth floor, 487, and you show me where that window was.
Mr.Williams. It was one of these windows, I believe it was this window here, I believe. Maybe it was this window. I would say this window.
Mr.Ball. All right. We will mark that Z—window Z.
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And the other day, Friday, March 20th, when we were in Dallas, you three men went to that same window, didn't you?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And you had your picture taken?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. That is 489.
(The described document was marked Commission Exhibit No. 489 for identification.)
Mr.Ball. Is that about it?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Why did you go there and look in that direction?
Mr.Williams. Because, as I said before, the policeman was running toward the tracks.
Mr.Ball. The tracks shown in this picture?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir. I believe that is the parking lot right here.
Mr.Ball. And the tracks are shown in there, aren't they?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And were people running towards the tracks?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir; the policemen were.
RepresentativeFord. Mr. Ball, I hate to interrupt, but I do have to go to a call of the House. I wonder if I could ask one question right here. I dislike breaking up the sequence.
Mr. Williams, when did you first know that the President's motorcade would come by the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr.Williams. Well, I never did know the exact time. But I think my wife had mentioned it before that Friday. She had told me, because I never did have too much time reading the paper. And that morning, that Friday morning, we was on the sixth floor, and I think some fellows mentioned it to me again, some of the fellows working with me.
RepresentativeFord. You did not know the motorcade was coming by your building until Friday morning?
Mr.Williams. No, sir; I didn't know the exact way it was coming, because I hadn't been reading the papers.
RepresentativeFord. You had not read the paper the day before?
Mr.Williams. About the only thing I would read in the paper in the mornings before I leave home would be the sports.
RepresentativeFord. Was it discussed in the building that morning of November 22d that the motorcade was coming by the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr.Williams. I believe I heard a couple of fellows say—I don't remember exactly who it was—but I believe I heard them say the motorcade was coming around that way.
RepresentativeFord. But it was not until Friday that you personally knew it was coming by the building?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Dulles. I would like to ask one question here.
When you were on the sixth floor eating your lunch, did you hear anything that made you feel that there was anybody else on the sixth floor with you?
Mr.Williams. No, sir; I didn't hear anything.
Mr.Dulles. You did not see anything?
Mr.Williams. I did not see anything.
Mr.Dulles. You were all alone as far as you knew at that time on the sixth floor?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Dulles. During that period of from 12 o'clock about to—10 or 15 minutes after?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir. I felt like I was all alone. That is one of the reasons I left—because it was so quiet.
Mr.McCloy. When you saw Oswald that morning, was he carrying any package? Did you see any bundle or package with him?
Mr.Williams. No, sir; I didn't see anything other than the clipboard with the orders on it that he was filling, as I remember.
Mr.McCloy. How many shots did you hear fired?
Mr.Williams. I heard three shots. But at first I told the FBI I only heard two—they took me down—because I was excited, and I couldn't remember too well. But later on, as everything began to die down, I got my memory even a little better than on the 22d, I remembered three shots, because there was a pause between the first two shots. There was two real quick. There was three shots.
Mr.Ball. Did you hear anything upstairs at all?
Mr.Williams. No, sir; I didn't hear anything.
Mr.Ball. Any footsteps?
Mr.Williams. No, sir. Probably the reason we didn't hear anything is because, you know, after the shots we were running, too, and that was making a louder noise.
Mr.Ball. You really ran?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir; we ran. And that was probably making a lot of noise.
Mr.Ball. Now, I'm going to hold this up. I don't know whether everybody can see it ornot——
Mr.Dulles. Could I ask one question in connection with your last question?
Did you hear either of the elevators going up or down while you were eating your meal?
Mr.Williams. No, sir; I did not.
Mr.Dulles. You didn't hear the elevators at all?
Mr.Williams. No, sir.
Mr.Dulles. If an elevator had come to that floor, would you have heard it then?
Mr.Williams. That alldepends——
Mr.Dulles. Were they noisy elevators? The operation of the doors and so forth?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir. The elevator that I came up on to the sixth floor, if you would listen—say you were listening for the boss, you could hear, because you would be paying attention. The elevator is worked by hand pedal. When you release the hand pedal it makes a noise. It bangs—or maybe you can hear the old elevator when it is first coming up. But at that time I did not hear anything.
(At this point, Representative Ford left the hearing room.)
Mr.Ball. I would like to point out over in the northwest corner there is a stairwell. And the elevators are shown here. And the witness has placed himself at point "Z" on Exhibit 487, which is near a pair of west windows.
Now, you are oriented there, are you not?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. All right. When you were at "Z" were you able to see the stairwell?
Mr.Williams. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Why?
Mr.Williams. You could not see the stairs from that point because this other—this is the stairway, and it has some shelves made out of some old wooden boxes. Those old wooden boxes come out to about right here. And they come out maybe 5 feet, even more than that, past the stairway. And that would block your view of the stairway from that point.
Mr.Ball. Mark it in there with your pencil.
Mr.Williams. These are the stairs. I would say the bookcase would come out like that.
Mr.Ball. The shelf we will mark "WX", both ends of the shelf. How high is the shelf?
Mr.Williams. Pretty high.
Mr.Ball. Does it go to the ceiling?
Mr.Williams. As I remember, they do not go exactly to the ceiling. But I am 6 feet, and they are way over me, I think.
Mr.Ball. Now, could you see all of the elevators from there?
Mr.Williams. Well, by me being the tallest, Isaw——
Mr.Ball. I am not going into what you saw. But could you see either elevator from where you were standing at "Z"?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir; you could see this pretty plainly.
Mr.Ball. You mean the west elevator?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Could you see the east elevator?
Mr.Williams. No, sir; you could not see it exactly.
Mr.Ball. Now, when you were questioned by the FBI agents, talking to Mr. Odum and Mr. Griffin, they reported in writing here that while you were standing at the west end of the building on the fifth floor, a police officer came up on the elevator and looked all around the fifth floor and left the floor. Did you see anything like that?
Mr.Williams. Well, at the time I was up there I saw a motorcycle policeman. He came up. And the only thing I saw of him was his white helmet.
Mr.Ball. What did he do?
Mr.Williams. He just came around, and around to the elevator.
Mr.Ball. Which elevator?
Mr.Williams. I believe it was the east elevator.
Mr.Ball. Did you see anybody with him?
Mr.Williams. I did not.
Mr.Ball. You were only able to see the top of his helmet?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. You could only see the top of his helmet?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir; that is the only thing I saw about it.
Mr.Ball. They reported that you told them on the 23d of November that you and Hank, that is Hank Norman, isn'tit——
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And Junior—that is Junior Jarman—were standing where they would have seen anyone coming down from the sixth floor by way of the stairs. Did you tell them that?
Mr.Williams. I could not possibly have told him that, because you cannot see anything coming down from that position.
Mr.Ball. And that you did not see anyone coming down.
Mr.Williams. No, sir. An elephant could walk by there, and you could not see him.
Mr.Ball. That day we were out there, Friday, March 20th, we took some pictures.
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. I show you 490.
(The document described was marked Exhibit No. 490 for identification.)
Mr.Ball. We took a picture from where you were standing towards the stairs. Do you recognize that?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. What is that?
Mr.Williams. This is the side we were on. I believe these are the bookshelves I was speaking of.
Mr.Ball. That is the ones that hide the stairwell?
Mr.Williams. That is right.
Mr.Ball. And the camera is—you saw where the camera was set, didn't you?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. You saw these pictures taken?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Where was the camera?
Mr.Williams. The camera was located about the exact place I was standing looking out this window.
Mr.Ball. That would be "Z" on 487?
Mr.Williams. That's right.
Mr.Ball. And was pointed toward what direction?
Mr.Williams. It was pointed towards the stairway and the bookcase.
Mr.Ball. The way you would have been looking on that day?
Mr.Williams. Right.
Mr.Ball. And this shows those shelves.
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. I have two other pictures I would like to show, and I would like to show the Commissioners all three at the same time.
Now, do you recall that we had you three men stand near the stairwell?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Now, on this picture here, on 487, that would be what location?
Mr.Williams. On this picture here, that would be about right in here.
Mr.Ball. Near the "up", is that right?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. I would like to have the Commissioners note that—that the man was standing near the "up" part of the stairwell.
We took your pictures three in a row, is that right?
Mr.Williams. That is right.
Mr.Ball. And then do you recall the picture was taken?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir; I recall this picture. This picture was taken from the position we were standing, and it gave the view of—the only thing you would be able to see from this point. And this picture here was James Jarman, which we were standing shoulder to shoulder.
Mr.Ball. Also were the cartons piled at that time so that—as they were here—on the day, November 22d, were the cartons piled somewhat like they are here?
Mr.Williams. They were piled somewhat like here, because they have been rearranged since that time.
Mr.Ball. Now, in both pictures, 492 and 490, you see two windows, do you not?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And those windows are shown on the diagram of the fifth floor, 487, as where?
Mr.Williams. Right here.
Mr.Ball. The windows next to the west elevator?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And in this picture, are you able to see either elevator?
Mr.Williams. In this picture?
Mr.Ball. This picture—490 and 492—are you able to see either elevator?
Mr.Williams. No, sir; you cannot see exactly the elevator.
Mr.Ball. Now, in this picture, 491, where is the downstairs?
Mr.Williams. The downstairs come right in here.
Mr.Ball. Are you able to see the opening of the downstairs from this view, 492?
Mr.Williams. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. And the thing that obstructs your view is this shelving, is that right?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir; that's right.
Mr.Dulles. How long has that shelving been there—for quite a long while? Or was it put there recently?
Mr.Williams. I think it was there from the time I started, as far as I can remember.
Mr.Dulles. That goes back to the time you were first employed there?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir. At the time I came to the building.
Mr.Dulles. So it could not have been put up a day or two before.
Mr.Williams. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did you hear anyone going up or down the stairs?
Mr.Williams. No, I didn't.
Mr.Ball. Did you pay any attention to that?
Mr.Williams. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. As you were standing at the window, did you hear any footsteps?
Mr.Williams. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Up above—hear any movement up above?
Mr.Williams. No, sir; I don't remember.
Mr.Ball. Were you paying any attention whether or not there was anyone up above?
Mr.Williams. No, sir; we wasn't paying any attention.
Mr.Ball. Now, in this FBI report that we have dated the 23d of November 1963, the report that you said that someone might have been coming down on the elevator and you would not have noticed that. Did you say that?
Mr.Williams. I think I remember saying that.
Mr.Ball. After you stood at the west window for a while, what did you do?
Mr.Williams. After we stood at the west window for a while, we decided to go down. Then we left.
Mr.Ball. How did you go down?
Mr.Williams. By stairs.
Mr.Ball. Where did you go?
Mr.Williams. We went to the fourth floor first. Then we paused for a minute there, where we saw these women looking out of the window. Then we decided to go down to the first floor, and we ran on down.
Mr.Ball. When you got to the first floor, what did you see there?
Mr.McCloy. How did you get to the first floor?
Mr.Williams. By stairs.
Mr.Dulles. There were some people on the fourth floor?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir. I remember seeing maybe two or three women standing in the window, looking out the window.
Mr.Dulles. Looking out the window?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.McCloy. Which stairway did they take, west or east?
Mr.Ball. There was only one stairway, and that is the one in the corner.
Did you run down stairs?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir; we ran.
Mr.Ball. When you got to the first floor, what did you see?
Mr.Williams. When we arrived to the first floor, the first thing I noticed was that the policemen had rushed in. I think some firemen came in with a water hose. And then the next thing that happened, these detectives, or maybe FBI—anyway, they stopped us all and they said, "Do you work here?" And we told them yes. And they took our name, address, and they searched everybody. And then the other fellow—I think one fellow asked whether we had been working upstairs. I think we told him yes. They got out all the fellows I think that was working on the sixth floor at the time, and they took us all down to the courthouse, I think, and we had to fill out some affidavits and things.
Mr.Ball. You made out an affidavit there?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did you go out of the building shortly after you came downstairs?
Mr.Williams. They wouldn't let anybody out of the building.
Mr.Ball. How long after you came down from the first floor were you taken over to the Police Department?
Mr.Williams. I couldn't give you the exact time, but it wasn't long.
Mr.Ball. You can't give me any estimate in minutes?
Mr.Williams. No, sir; I would not want to say.
Mr.Dulles. Did you see Lee Oswald at any time during this period?
Mr.Williams. No, sir; I don't remember seeing him.
Mr.Ball. Were the police with you?
Mr.Williams. Yes; they were.
Mr.Ball. Were your two friends with you, Jarmanand——
Mr.Williams. No; they wasn't with me. First I think they took me and another fellow, Danny—they took us in one car. Then they took some other fellows in another car, and then another car, I think.
Mr.Ball. You were with Danny Arce and one or two police officers?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Anybody else?
Mr.Williams. That's all.
Mr.Ball. Do you know when Norman and Jarman went out?
Mr.Williams. Well, at the time I don't think Norman and Jarman came down right then. They brought Bill Shelley and Bill Lovelady, a fellow by the name of Jack Dougherty, and Charles Givens later on, they brought them right behind us.
Mr.Ball. When you left the first floor with the officers, was Norman still there?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir; he was in the building.
Mr.Ball. And was Jarman still there?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. I would like to offer all of the exhibits that we marked so far into evidence.
Mr.Dulles. Could you give me the numbers?
Mr.Ball. I think they run 483 to 492, inclusive.
Mr.Dulles. Was 481 introduced?
Mr.Ball. If 481 and 482 were not, we offer them. 483 is a diagram of the sixth floor. We offer that. Everything this morning from 477 to 492 we offer in evidence. The last number is 492.
Mr.Dulles. All exhibits subsequent to the last exhibit noted in the record up to and including 492 will be admitted.
(The material heretofore marked Exhibits Nos. 481 through 492, inclusive, previously marked for identification, were received in evidence.)
Mr.McCloy. I have some questions.
When you came downstairs, do you remember seeing a man named Brennan, and did a man named Brennan identify you downstairs?
Mr.Williams. No, sir; I don't remember that.
Mr.McCloy. No one that you know—no one said, "This is the man I have seen on the fifth floor window?"
Mr.Williams. No, sir.
Mr.McCloy. Were you physically kept from leaving the building when you got downstairs? Did you try to go out of the building?
Mr.Williams. No, sir; I wasn't trying to go out of the building because there wasn't any use of trying to, because at the time we arrived on the first floor, I heard an officer shout out and say, "No one leave the building."
Mr.McCloy. Have you got any appreciation of the time that elapsed between your hearing the first shot and the time that you got finally down to the first floor, after you had been on the fifth floor and the fourth floor?
Mr.Williams. No, sir; I could not give you any time.
Mr.McCloy. Well, you did not give us any time. Do you have any recollection now of about how long that was? Was it 15 minutes, 10 minutes, 20 minutes? How long did it take from the time that you were looking out that window and you heard that shot until you did get down to the first floor?
Mr.Williams. Well, I could say approximately 15 minutes, maybe a little before then, maybe after. I could not say exactly.
Mr.Dulles. Do you know what time it was when you went off and left for the police station?
Mr.Williams. I could not give you the exact time.
Mr.McCloy. Do you know whether or not anybody got out of the building before the police could get there? Did any of your friends or the people you were working with, did you hear whether any of them had left the building before the building was closed?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir; I heard Mr. Truly—he said that—he mentioned that—he said, "Where is Lee?" That is what everybody called him. "Where is Lee?", he said, and therefore I assume he did not know where Lee was, that he was out of the building, because everybody else was there. And there was another colored fellow by the name of Charles Givens. He wasn't in the building at the time. He was downtown somewhere.
Mr.McCloy. Had he been at the building at the time of the shooting—Givens?
Mr.Williams. I don't believe he had.
Mr.Dulles. What did Mr. Truly say about Lee not being there?
Mr.Williams. The only thing I heard him say is—I think an officer asked him, "Is everyone here?" And he said, "Where is Lee?"—like that, you know.
Mr.Dulles. Mr. Truly said that?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.McCloy. Do you know the name of the first policeman that accosted you, who stopped you?
Mr.Williams. No, sir.
Mr.McCloy. Are you familiar with firearms?
Mr.Williams. No, sir.
Mr.McCloy. Do you ever do any hunting?
Mr.Williams. No, sir; I never go hunting.
Mr.McCloy. But you have heard shots fired?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir; I heard my grandfather try a gun out, something like that.
Mr.McCloy. You were not in the army?
Mr.Williams. No, sir; I have never been in the army.
Mr.McCloy. I think that is all I have.
Mr.Dulles. I have one question.
You have referred to three explosions that—one you thought was a backfire or a firecracker.
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Dulles. Was there any difference in the sound of those three explosions?
Mr.Williams. As far as I remember, there wasn't any difference in the sound. It was just the time between the sound.
Mr.McCloy. As I heard you testify, you said there was a larger pause between the first and the second shot than there was between the second and the third.
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.McCloy. Let me get this clear. Did you see the President crumple after the shot? Did you see the President hit?
Mr.Williams. Personally, I did not see him, because I was kind of jumping.
Mr.Dulles. Are there any other questions?
Thank you very much, and we appreciate your coming. We will recess at this time until 2 o'clock this afternoon.
(Whereupon, at 12:40 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)