Mr.Belin. All right.
Let me ask you this now. How far was the officer's gun from Lee Harvey Oswald when he asked the question?
Mr.Truly. It would be hard for me to say, but it seemed to me like it was almost touching him.
Mr.Belin. What portion of his body?
Mr.Truly. Towards the middle portion of his body.
Mr.Belin. Could you see Lee Harvey Oswald's hands?
Mr.Truly. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Could yousee——
Mr.Truly. I am sure I could, yes. I could see most of him, because I was looking in the room on an angle, and they were this way.
Mr.Belin. When you say you were looking in the room on anangle——
Mr.Truly. What I mean—this door offsets the lunchroom door.
Mr.Belin. By this door, you mean door No. 23 is at an angle to door No. 24?
Mr.Truly. Yes. One this way and the other one is this way.
Mr.Belin. All right.
Could you see whether or not Lee Harvey Oswald had anything in either hand?
Mr.Truly. I noticed nothing in either hand.
Mr.Belin. Did you see both of his hands?
Mr.Truly. I am sure I did. I could be wrong, but I am almost sure I did.
Mr.Belin. About how long did Officer Baker stand there with Lee Harvey Oswald after you saw them?
Mr.Truly. He left him immediately after I told him—after he asked me, does this man work here. I said, yes. The officer left him immediately.
Mr.Belin. Did you hear Lee Harvey Oswald say anything?
Mr.Truly. Not a thing.
Mr.Belin. Did you see any expression on his face? Or weren't you paying attention?
Mr.Truly. He didn't seem to be excited or overly afraid or anything. He might have been a bit startled, like I might have been if somebody confronted me. But I cannot recall any change in expression of any kind on his face.
Mr.Belin. Now, I hand you what the reporter has marked as Exhibit 499.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 499 for identification.)
Mr.Belin. I ask you to state if you know what this is.
Mr.Truly. That is the interior of the lunchroom.
Mr.Belin. And what direction does the camera appear to be pointing on Exhibit 499?
Mr.Truly. East.
Mr.Belin. And does this appear to be the doorway in the very foreground of the picture?
Mr.Truly. I believe so.
RepresentativeFord. Which doorway would that be?
Mr.Truly. Number 24. The camera seems to be right in the doorway when that picture was taken. You cannot see the doorway very well.
Mr.Dulles. May I ask you a question?
Do you know why it was that the officer didn't follow you up the stairs, but instead was distracted, as it were, and went with Lee Harvey Oswald into the lunchroom?
Mr.Truly. I never knew until a day or two ago that he said he saw a movement, saw a man going away from him.
Mr.Dulles. As he was going up the stairs?
Mr.Truly. As he got to the second floor landing. While I was going around, he saw a movement.
Mr.Dulles. And he followed that?
Mr.Truly. That is right.
RepresentativeFord. He saw a movement in the lunchroom or a man go into the lunchroom?
Mr.Truly. He saw the back of a man inside the door—I suppose door No. 23.
But that isn't my statement. I didn't learn about that, you see, until the other day.
Mr.Belin. I believe we have some additional pictures of the lunchroom. Perhaps we can just briefly identify them.
Here is a picture which has been marked Commission Exhibit 500.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 500 for identification.)
Mr.Belin. I will ask you to state what this is.
Mr.Truly. This is a picture of the lunchroom.
Mr.Belin. What direction is the camera facing there?
Mr.Truly. East.
Mr.Belin. What about Exhibit 501?
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 501 for identification.)
Mr.Truly. This picture is part of the lunchroom. And I would say the camera must be facing northeast.
Mr.Belin. What about Exhibit 502?
Mr.Truly. This is the lunchroom looking west. Northwest, I would say.
Mr.Belin. Is this door clear to the left of the picture, the door in which you saw Officer Baker standing when he was talking to Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr.Truly. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Now, Mr. Truly, you then went up to the third floor with Officer Baker.
Mr.Truly. We continued on until we reached the fifth floor.
Mr.Belin. Now, by the way, I have used the name Officer Baker.
When did you find out what his name was?
Mr.Truly. I never did know for sure what his name was until he was down to the building and you were interviewing him last week.
Mr.Belin. This was on Friday, March 20th?
Mr.Truly. I had heard his name was Baker or Burton or various other names. But I never did try to find out what his name was.
Mr.Belin. All right.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 502 for identification.)
Mr.Belin. Now, Mr. Truly, did you notice when you got to the third floor—first of all. On the second floor, was there any elevator there?
Mr.Truly. No, sir.
Mr.Belin. What about the third floor?
Mr.Truly. No, sir.
Mr.Belin. Fourth floor?
Mr.Truly. No, I am sure not.
Mr.Belin. What about the fifth floor?
Mr.Truly. When we reached the fifth floor, the east elevator was on that floor.
Mr.Belin. What about the west elevator? Was that on the fifth floor?
Mr.Truly. No, sir. I am sure it wasn't, or I could not have seen the east elevator.
Mr.Belin. All right.
Mr.Truly. I am almost positive that it wasn't there.
Mr.Dulles. You said you released the elevator and let it go down?
Mr.Truly. No; the east elevator was the one on the fifth floor.
Mr.Belin. Now, Exhibit 487 appears to be a diagram of the fifth floor. As I understand it, you might mark on that diagram the way you went from the stairs over to the east elevator.
Mr.Truly. Well, I started around towards the stairway, and then I noted that this east elevator was there. So I told the officer, "Come on, here is an elevator," and then we ran down to the east side, and got on the east elevator.
Mr.Belin. Could you put the letter "T" at the end of that line, please?
All right.
Now, where did you go with the east elevator, to what floor?
Mr.Truly. We rode the east elevator to the seventh floor.
Mr.Belin. Did you stop at the sixth floor at all?
Mr.Truly. No, sir.
Mr.Belin. What did you do when you got to the seventh floor?
Mr.Truly. We ran up a little stairway that leads out through a little penthouse on to the roof.
Mr.Belin. What did you do on the roof?
Mr.Truly. We ran immediately to the west side of the building. There is a wall around the building that you cannot see over without getting your foot between the mortar of the stones and, or some such toehold. We did that and looked over the ground and the railroad tracks below. There we saw many officers and a lot of spectators, people running up and down.
Mr.Belin. Did the officer say to you why he wanted to go up to the roof?
Mr.Truly. No. At that time, he didn't.
Mr.Belin. Did he ever prior to meeting you again on March 20th tell you why he wanted to go on the roof?
Mr.Truly. No, sir.
Mr.Belin. Where did you think the shots came from?
Mr.Truly. I thought the shots came from the vicinity of the railroad or the WPA project, behind the WPA project west of the building.
Mr.Belin. Did you have any conversation with the officer that you can remember? About where you thought the shots came from?
Mr.Truly. Yes. When—some time in the course, I believe, after we reached the roof, the officer looked down over the boxcars and the railroad tracks and the crowd below. Then he looked around the edge of the roof for any evidence of anybody being there. And then looked up at the runways and the big sign on the roof.
He saw nothing.
He came over. And some time about then I said, "Officer, I think"—let's back up.
I believe the officer told me as we walked down into the seventh floor, "Be careful, this man will blow your head off."
And I told the officer that I didn't feel like the shots came from the building.
I said, "I think we are wasting our time up here," or words to that effect, "I don't believe these shots came from the building."
Mr.Belin. Did he say anything to that at all?
Mr.Truly. I don't recall exactly what he said. I believe he said, yes, or somebody said they did, or some such thing as that. I don't remember. I have heard so many things since, you know.
Mr.Belin. All right.
Now, Mr. Truly, on March 20th, you and I visited about this particular incidentyou have related about the running into the building and up the stairs with this officer, is that correct?
Mr.Truly. That is correct.
Mr.Belin. And as a matter of fact you and Officer Baker and I tried to reconstruct the incident in an effort to determine how long it took you to do all this, is that correct?
Mr.Truly. That is correct.
Mr.Belin. And do you remember watching me getting over with Officer Baker in front of the sheriff's office on Market Street—pardon me—Houston Street, with a stopwatch?
Mr.Truly. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. And then you saw Officer Baker race his motorcycle over and come in front of the building, and then you ran in with him, is that correct?
Mr.Truly. That is correct.
Mr.Belin. And then what is the fact as to whether or not you and Officer Baker and I recreated the incident as you have testified to here, going into the lobby with the conversation you had with Officer Baker, and running into that swinging door, and going back to the elevator and pushing the elevator button, and then calling or yelling twice for the elevator to come down, and then coming up the stairs to the second floor. Do you remember that?
Mr.Truly. I remember that.
Mr.Belin. When we recreated that incident, did we walk or run?
Mr.Truly. We walked. We trotted.
Mr.Belin. We trotted.
Did we get out of breath, do you remember?
Mr.Truly. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Did we go at about the speed that you feel you went on that day with Officer Baker?
Mr.Truly. I think so—which was a little more than a trot, I would say.
Mr.Belin. Do you remember offhand what the stopwatch timed us at—I think we did it twice, is that correct?
Mr.Truly. No, sir—not from the time that he got on his motorcycle, I don't remember.
Mr.Belin. All right.
Mr.Truly. But I was thinking it was somewheres under 2 minutes. Between a minute and a half and 2 minutes.
Mr.Belin. Officer Baker, I think, will be able to testify to that in the morning.
RepresentativeFord. But in reconstructing the incident, you went more or less at a similar pace, took about the same time you did on November 22d?
Mr.Truly. As far as I can tell; yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. You ran at about the same speed, do you believe?
Mr.Truly. Yes; I believe so.
We tried to—we had a few people we had to push our way through to start in the building the other time, and possibly didn't run quite so fast at first.
Mr.Belin. Would you say that again?
Mr.Truly. I said when the officer and I ran in, we were shouldering people aside in front of the building, so we possibly were slowed a little bit more coming in than we were when he and I came in March 20th. I don't believe so. But it wouldn't be enough to matter there.
Mr.Belin. Would you say that the reconstruction that we did on March 20th was a minimum or a maximum time?
Mr.Truly. Oh, I would say that would be the minimum time.
Mr.Belin. Mr. Truly, when you took the elevator to the fifth—from the fifth to the seventh floor, that east elevator did you see the west elevator at all as you passed the sixth floor, when you got to the seventh floor?
Mr.Truly. No, sir; because—I could not see the west elevator while operating the east elevator.
Mr.Belin. You mean because you were not looking at it, or you just couldn't see it?
Mr.Truly. Well, the back of the east elevator is solid metal, and if I passed—yes; I could. I beg your pardon.
I could see it from the fifth floor. I didn't notice it anywheres up there. I wasn't really looking for it, however.
Mr.Belin. Now, after you got—when did you notice that west elevator next? If you know.
Mr.Truly. I don't know.
Mr.Belin. I believe you said when you first saw the elevators, you thought they were both on the same floor, the fifth floor.
Mr.Truly. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Then how do you explain that when you got to the fifth floor, one of the elevators was not there?
Mr.Truly. I don't know, sir. I think one of my boys was getting stock off the fifth floor on the back side, and probably moved the elevator at the time—somewheres between the time we were running upstairs. And I would not have remembered that. I mean I wouldn't have really heard that, with the commotion we were making running up the enclosed stairwell.
Mr.Belin. Did you see anyone on the fifth floor?
Mr.Truly. Yes. When coming down I am sure I saw Jack Dougherty getting some books off the fifth floor.
Now, this is so dim in my mind that I could be making a mistake.
But I believe that he was getting some stock, that he had already gone back to work, and that he was getting some stock off the fifth floor.
Mr.Belin. You really don't know who was operating the elevator, then, is that correct?
Mr.Truly. That is correct.
Mr.Belin. What is your best guess?
Mr.Truly. My best guess is that Jack Dougherty was.
Mr.Belin. Now, after you got down from the seventh floor, you then went down to the sixth floor with Officer Baker?
Mr.Truly. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Did he look around on the sixth floor at all or not?
Mr.Truly. Just before we got on the elevator on the seventh floor, Officer Baker ran over and looked in a little room on the seventh floor, and glanced around on that floor, which is open, and it didn't take much of a search. And then we reached the sixth floor. I stopped. He glanced over the sixth floor quickly.
Mr.Belin. Could you see the southeast corner of the sixth floor from there?
Mr.Truly. I don't think so; no, sir. You could not.
Mr.Belin. Then what?
Mr.Truly. Then we continued on down, and we saw officers on the fourth floor.
I don't recall that we stopped any more until we reached the first floor. But I do recall there was an officer on the fourth floor, by the time we got down that far.
Mr.Belin. All right.
And then you got down eventually to the first floor?
Mr.Truly. That is right.
Mr.Belin. About how long after these shots do you think it took you to go all the way up and look around the roof and come all the way down again?
Mr.Truly. Oh, we might have been gone between 5 and 10 minutes. It is hard to say.
Mr.Belin. What did you do when you got back to the first floor, or what did you see?
Mr.Truly. When I got back to the first floor, at first I didn't see anything except officers running around, reporters in the place. There was a regular madhouse.
Mr.Belin. Had they sealed off the building yet, do you know?
Mr.Truly. I am sure they had.
Mr.Belin. Then what?
Mr.Truly. Then in a few minutes—it could have been moments or minutes at a time like that—I noticed some of my boys were over in the west corner of the shipping department, and there were several officers over there taking their names and addresses, and so forth.
There were other officers in other parts of the building taking other employees, like office people's names. I noticed that Lee Oswald was not among these boys.
So I picked up the telephone and called Mr. Aiken down at the other warehouse who keeps our application blanks. Back up there.
First I mentioned to Mr. Campbell—I asked Bill Shelley if he had seen him, he looked around and said no.
Mr.Belin. When you asked Bill Shelley if he had seen whom?
Mr.Truly. Lee Oswald. I said, "Have you seen him around lately," and he said no.
So Mr. Campbell is standing there, and I said, "I have a boy over here missing. I don't know whether to report it or not." Because I had another one or two out then. I didn't know whether they were all there or not. He said, "What do you think"? And I got to thinking. He said, "Well, we better do it anyway." It was so quick after that.
So I picked the phone up then and called Mr. Aiken, at the warehouse, and got the boy's name and general description and telephone number and address at Irving.
Mr.Belin. Did you have any address for him in Dallas, or did you just have an address in Irving?
Mr.Truly. Just the address in Irving. I knew nothing of this Dallas address. I didn't know he was living away from his family.
Mr.Belin. Now, would that be the address and the description as shown on this application, Exhibit 496?
Mr.Truly. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Did you ask for the name and addresses of any other employees who might have been missing?
Mr.Truly. No, sir.
Mr.Belin. Why didn't you ask for any other employees?
Mr.Truly. That is the only one that I could be certain right then was missing.
Mr.Belin. Then what did you do after you got that information?
Mr.Truly. Chief Lumpkin of the Dallas Police Department was standing a few feet from me. I told Chief Lumpkin that I had a boy missing over here—"I don't know whether it amounts to anything or not." And I gave him his description. And he says, "Just a moment. We will go tell Captain Fritz."
Mr.Belin. All right. And then what happened?
Mr.Truly. So Chief Lumpkin had several officers there that he was talking to, and I assumed that he gave him some instructions of some nature—I didn't hear it. And then he turned to me and says, "Now we will go upstairs".
So we got on one of the elevators, I don't know which, and rode up to the sixth floor. I didn't know Captain Fritz was on the sixth floor. And he was over in the northwest corner of the building.
Mr.Belin. By the stairs there?
Mr.Truly. Yes; by the stairs.
Mr.Belin. All right.
Mr.Truly. And there were other officers with him. Chief Lumpkin stepped over and told Captain Fritz that I had something that I wanted to tell him.
Mr.Belin. All right. And then what happened?
Mr.Truly. So Captain Fritz left the men he was with and walked over about 8 or 10 feet and said, "What is it, Mr. Truly," or words to that effect.
And I told him about this boy missing and gave him his address and telephone number and general description. And he says, "Thank you, Mr. Truly. We will take care of it."
And I went back downstairs in a few minutes.
There was a reporter followed me away from that spot, and asked me who Oswald was. I told the reporter, "You must have ears like a bird, or something. I don't want to say anything about a boy I don't know anything about. This is a terrible thing." Or words to that effect.
I said, "Don't bother me. Don't mention the name. Let's find something out."
So I went back downstairs with Chief Lumpkin.
Mr.Belin. When you got on the sixth floor, did you happen to go over to the southeast corner of the sixth floor at about that time or not?
Mr.Truly. No, sir; I sure didn't.
Mr.Belin. When did you get over to the southeast corner of the sixth floor?
Mr.Truly. That I can't answer. I don't remember when I went over there. It was sometime before I learned that they had found either the rifle or the spent shell cases. It could have been at the time I went up and told them about Lee Harvey Oswald being missing. I cannot remember. But I didn't know it. I didn't see them find them, and I didn't know at the time—I don't know how long they had the things.
Mr.Belin. There has been some testimony here, Mr. Truly, about some bins for storing books on the fifth floor near the stairway. I am going to hand you an exhibit which has been marked as Commission Exhibit 490, and ask you to state, if you know—were you there when these pictures were taken on the fifth floor? On Friday, March 20th?
TheChairman. The fifth floor?
Mr.Belin. The fifth floor; yes, sir.
Mr.Truly. Yes; I was, I believe. Some of them I may not have been when all of them were taken. I was not there when this picture was taken, no, sir.
Mr.Belin. You are familiar with those bins on the fifth floor, are you not?
Mr.Truly. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. How long have those bins by the stairway been there?
Mr.Truly. Well, it would be hard for me to say, but they have been there, I suppose, almost from the time we moved in—nearly 2 years. They were there at the time of November 22.
Mr.Belin. On Commission Exhibit 487, the line marked "W", will you state whether or not this appears to be the approximate line where the bins are located?
Mr.Truly. Yes, it would be.
Mr.Belin. Can you see over those bins?
Mr.Truly. You cannot.
Mr.Belin. I mean when you are at the window—say you are in the southwest corner.
Mr.Truly. No, sir; you cannot. They obscure the stairway.
Mr.Belin. All right.
Now, there was a floor laying project that was going along on the sixth floor at about the time of November 22, is that correct?
Mr.Truly. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Handing you Commission Exhibit 483, could you state, if you know, approximately where on the sixth floor they were laying new plywood floor around November 22d?
Mr.Truly. This isit——
Mr.Belin. This is north right here?
Mr.Truly. They were in this area right here.
Mr.Belin. Well, there is a blank line that appears to have a "W" at one end or the other. Would that be a fairlyaccurate——
Mr.Truly. Yes, sir; in the west end of the building.
Mr.Belin. Where they were laying the floor?
Mr.Truly. That is where they were laying the floor.
Mr.Belin. Now, when you were—were you familiar with the fact that they had moved books in the process of laying that floor?
Mr.Truly. I knew they had to. I didn't know where they moved them particularly until that time. I don't suppose I had been up on that floor in several days.
Mr.Belin. By that time, you mean November 22?
Mr.Truly. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Where did it appear that they had moved them?
Mr.Truly. They moved a long row of books down parallel to the windows on the south side, following the building, and had quite a lot of cartons on the north—let's see—the southeast corner of the building.
Mr.Belin. Sometime on November 22d did you go to the southeast corner of the building?
Mr.Truly. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Did you notice anything particularly about the books that were in the southeast corner?
Mr.Truly. I didn't at that time—with the exception of a few cartons that were moved. But I did not know any pattern that the boys used in putting these cartons up there. They were just piled up there more or less at that time.
Mr.Belin. Well, handing you what has been marked as Exhibit 503, which is a picture, does this appear to portray the southeast corner of the sixth floor as you saw it on November 22d?
Mr.Truly. Yes, sir.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 503 for identification.)
Mr.Belin. Now, I notice some rows of books along the east wall. Did those books go all the way to the corner or not?
Mr.Truly. They did not in front of the window extend very much in height, but they did go all the way on the floor to the corner of the building.
Mr.Belin. Was this prior to November 22d?
Mr.Truly. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. When you got there on November 22d, did those books still go to the corner of the east wall of the sixth floor?
Mr.Truly. No, sir. There were several cartons that had been moved out of the corner and apparently placed on top of the cartons next to them in front of the east window.
Mr.Belin. Do you have any books that are called Rolling Readers?
Mr.Truly. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Do you know what floor those Rolling Readers are usually kept on?
Mr.Truly. The first floor and the sixth floor. Most of them are on the sixth floor.
Mr.Belin. Do you know where on the sixth floor the Rolling Readers are?
Mr.Truly. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Approximately where?
Mr.Truly. They were—I would say they were thirty or forty feet from the corner. They were not in the area that the boys moved books from.
Mr.Belin. Well, handing you Exhibit 483, I wonder if you would mark with your pen the letters "RR" for Rolling Readers. Would there have been any occasion at all to move any Rolling Readers from the area you have marked on Exhibit 483 to the southeast corner of the sixth floor?
Mr.Truly. No, sir; because the boys had not finished much of the plywood work, and they would—none of that stock was moved at that time for any purpose.
Mr.Belin. Are the Rolling Reader cartons average size or small size or large size?
Mr.Truly. They are much smaller than the average size cartons on that floor.
Mr.McCloy. Do you intend to offer all of these exhibits en bloc later on?
Mr.Belin. Yes, sir.
Now, handing you Commission Exhibit 504, there appear to be some boxes near a window on a floor of your building. And I note that on two of the boxes they are marked "Ten Rolling Readers." Are those the Rolling Reader cartons that you referred to, with the letters "RR" on Commission Exhibit 483?
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 504 for identification.)
Mr.Truly. Yes, sir; that is right.
RepresentativeFord. The Rolling Reader boxes were not ordinarily in that southeast corner?
Mr.Truly. No, sir. That was not the place for them. They were 40 feet or so away.
RepresentativeFord. May I ask—the job that Oswald had, how did you designate it?
Mr.Truly. Well, he filled orders.
RepresentativeFord. He was an order filler?
Mr.Truly. Order filler.
RepresentativeFord. Do you keep records of the orders that are filled by each order filler every day?
Mr.Truly. Not every day; no, sir. Occasionally we would double check on the employees, or the checker would count up the number and give me the number each employee filled in that day, or several days in succession for a whole week.
RepresentativeFord. Would you know what orders Oswald filled November 22d?
Mr.Truly. No, sir; I would not.
RepresentativeFord. You would have no way of checking that?
Mr.Truly. No. They would have been some orders that he filled the 21st that were not checked and out of the house on the 22d. And I could not tell how many he filled or when he filled his orders, no, sir.
RepresentativeFord. When an order filler fills an order, does he make his initial or mark on it?
Mr.Truly. Yes, sir; he does. Up there where it says "L", which is layout, he puts his number, and then the checker puts his number under "C" when he checks the order and sees that it is all right, and sends it on for packing.
RepresentativeFord. Well, it would seem to me that every order that was filled on a particular day by an order filler could be identified as to the individual.
Mr.Truly. You see, we don't always get out our orders the same day they are shipped. The order fillers fill lots of orders, and they are filling orders on up to quitting time in the afternoon, and those wouldn't go out until the next day, or sometime, if they get ahead of the checker. They don't put the date on them when they fill them.
RepresentativeFord. What I am trying to find out—is there any way to trace by the orders that were filled by Oswald on the morning of November 22d as to whether or not in the process of filling orders he was taken to the sixth floor?
Mr.Truly. No, sir; we could not tell whether he filled any orders that might be dated November 22d—might have been filled—if they were dated November 22d and had Oswald's number on it, we would know that he filled those on November 22d. But if they were billed and dated on the 20th and 21st, and there was a number of those filled, we could not tell how many of those he filled on the 22d.
RepresentativeFord. Have you ever gone back through your orders for the 22d?
Mr.Truly. No, sir.
RepresentativeFord. Just to take a survey?
Mr.Truly. We have thousands and thousands of accounts, and they run from A to Z alphabetically in our files. We would have to take—we would have to go through every invoice in each file, from A to Z, in order to find any orders he might have filled on that day. And it would be hard to prove that he filled them on that date because, unless we found one that had his number on it and was dated November 22d—because we know he wasn't there after that—but if it was dated November 21st, he could easily have filled a good number of those orders that morning of the 22d. But we could not tell whether he filled them the 21st or the 22d.
Mr.Belin. Mr. Truly, in line with Congressman Ford's questions, was there ever a clipboard found in your building at all?
Mr.Truly. Yes, sir. Sometime later there was a clipboard found that had two or three orders on it.
Mr.Belin. What were those orders dated?
Mr.Truly. I don't remember, sir.
Mr.Belin. Do you remember where the clipboard was found?
Mr.Truly. I later learned it was found up on the sixth floor, near the stairway, behind some cartons. I do not remember just exactly how many orders were on it, but I think it was only two or three.
Mr.Belin. Do you remember who found it?
Mr.Truly. A boy by the name of Frankie Kaiser.
Mr.Belin. Is he still one of your employees?
Mr.Truly. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Do you know whether this was ever identified as having ever belonged to any particular employee of yours?
Mr.Truly. Well, he brought the clipboard to Bill Shelley and told him about it, and he said, "This is an old clipboard I used to use. This is the one that Oswald was using." It was a kind of homemade affair.
Mr.Belin. When you say he brought it to Bill Shelley, who are you referring to?
Mr.Truly. I am referring to Frankie Kaiser who brought the clipboard with the orders downstairs and told Bill Shelley that he had found Oswald's clipboard with some orders on it.
Mr.Belin. Had those orders ever been filled or not?
Mr.Truly. No, sir. You see, when they fill the orders, they take them off the clipboard. They may have 25 on the clipboard, and after a while they will have 15 or 10 or something.
Mr.Belin. Do you know whether or not those orders were ever eventually filled that were found on the clipboard?
Mr.Truly. Yes, sir; they were filled.
Mr.Belin. What did you do with the clipboard and the order blanks that were on there?
Mr.Truly. I think someone else filled the order blanks and the clipboard lay around there for a while until it was mentioned. I don't recall what happened to it. At the time nobody considered it of too much significance, I suppose—that the boy was just filling orders up there and he had just thrown his clipboard over. I believe that someone from a government agency either got the clipboard or looked at it. I have this thing all mixed up. It hasn't been very long ago, you know, about the clipboard. I don't know the solution of it. They were trying to identify this clipboard just a short while ago for someone—the FBI or the Secret Service, or it could be you, could it?
Mr.Belin. No, sir.
Mr.Truly. Just shortly before you.
Mr.Belin. Well, let me ask you this question?
Are there any ways in which your orders are posted that show anything along the lines that Congressman Ford suggested as to who might fill an order or when an order would be posted? In other words, if you come to an order and you see that the order is dated maybe November 21st, but you do not know whether it was filled on November 21st or November 22d, would your posting system of entries on your ledger or journal in any way show when it was filled?
Mr.Truly. No, sir. The date that we go by is the date the checker checks the order, and then he puts the date stamp on it. He puts it over on the table in a little conveyor belt, and the boys wrap it. When he separates the packing list and the invoice itself—he puts the packing list and the label with the order. Then he dates the invoice as of that date, and it goes upstairs to be matched with the other copies, and then charged to the customer.
Mr.Belin. Well, you mentioned earlier that periodically your checkers get a check to ascertain how many orders were filled by the various employees. Do you know of any such check made on the morning of November 22d?
Mr.Truly. No, sir; I do not recall having made a check in several days before that. We would usually run a check of errors for a week, and then we would run a check occasionally of orders filled. And checking on the errors the various boys made—maybe we have an unusual number for us of teachers writing in saying that they got the wrong book. So we try to check and see which one of these boys possibly was making these errors.
Mr.Belin. Is it your testimony that you do not recall any check being made on November 22d, or you are sure there was no check on November 22d?
Mr.Truly. There was no check that I recall. And I am sure there wasn't.
(At this point, the Chairman left the hearing room.)
RepresentativeFord. Could you tell us the approximate date that this individual found the clipboard and brought it to your attention?
Mr.Truly. No, sir.
RepresentativeFord. Was it a few days after the assassination, or several weeks?
Mr.Truly. I think it was just a few days afterward because—now, we would have to check upstairs. If these orders are not filled and processed and gone upstairs and matched with the copies in several days there, then we go looking for the order like the boys missed them. We have copies in the office, and if they do not come through in a reasonable time, we think that someone has lost some orders, and we get to checking them. If we cannot find them, we have to duplicate the orders.
RepresentativeFord. In other words, if 2 weeks had passed without the order being filled according to your records, you would have instituted a more thorough search to find out where the unfilled order blank was.
Mr.Truly. Yes, sir—less than that, I would say, because we do not—our customers would probably write to us before then, if they did not receive it. But the girls on it—usually 3 or 4 days, if those orders have not cleared, they come to check about them, to see if we are holding one back because we do not have the stock, or if we have lost it, the boys have lost it.
(At this point, the Chairman entered the hearing room.)
RepresentativeFord. Who is the man who brought the clipboard to you?
Mr.Truly. Bill Shelley called my attention to it. At that time I do not recall anything being done except maybe one of the boys filling the orders and just forgetting about that part of it.
RepresentativeFord. To your best recollection, who gave the clipboard to Bill Shelley?
Mr.Truly. Frankie Kaiser.
RepresentativeFord. Was he an employee of the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr.Truly. Yes, sir.
RepresentativeFord. Do you know generally where Kaiser found the clipboard?
Mr.Truly. Yes, sir.
RepresentativeFord. Can you point it out to us on one of the exhibits?
Mr.Belin. The diagram of the sixth floor has been marked as Exhibit No. 483. Perhaps you can mark on Exhibit No. 483 with the letter "C" where you think the clipboard was found.
I might at this point on the record say for the Commission that Exhibit 506 purports to be the position of the clipboard when it was discovered—the clipboard is circled, and the number on the picture, on Exhibit 506, is numbered 36, and on the Exhibit 483 appears at the end of the arrow with the number 36 on it, which is near where Mr. Truly put his "C". And the number 35 on that same exhibit—the number 35 will be shown tomorrow to be the position of the rifle when it was discovered.
RepresentativeFord. And 36 is the position of the clipboard?
Mr.Ball. I don't think you can take that as evidence.
Mr.Belin. This is not evidence. This is just background.
Mr.Ball. This is really an offer of proof on our part. That is the most you can consider it—because we intend to take the deposition of Kaiser who found the clipboard.
RepresentativeFord. Is there someone here, the staff or Mr. Truly, who knows approximately when the clipboard was found?
Mr.Belin. Yes, sir. I can give you that date in about one minute. According to our records, Frankie Kaiser, when interviewed on December 2d, said that on the morning of December 2d he found a clipboard which he had made and which he had turned over to Lee Harvey Oswald with orders. And we have a list of the orders also in one of the Commission documents. It is Document 7, page 381.
But we are going to have to actually take the deposition of Mr. Kaiser, which we will do when we go to Dallas next week or the week after, or whenever we get to him.
RepresentativeFord. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
RepresentativeFord. Back on the record.
Mr.Belin. Three more pictures, Mr. Truly.
I hand you what the reporter has marked as Exhibit 505.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 505 for identification.)
I ask you to state if this appears to be the stairway leading from the second to the third floor, or can't you tell?
Mr.Truly. I believe so; yes.
Mr.Belin. And that is the stairway that you went up two or three steps before you came down to get Officer Baker?
Mr.Truly. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Now, I note with regard to the floor plan on the second floor that when you want to get to the lunchroom from the elevator, if you want to get to the lunchroom from the west elevator you have to walk in the area through that door marked number 23. Is that correct?
Mr.Truly. That's right.
Mr.Belin. If you want to get there from the east elevator, what do you do?
Mr.Truly. Well, there is a side door, a north door, coming into the lunchroom that they can come through.
Mr.Belin. Does that north door appear on Exhibit 501?
Mr.Truly. Yes.
Mr.Belin. That appears to be located east of the Coca Cola machine, is that correct?
Mr.Truly. That is correct.
Mr.Belin. Now, if someone wanted to take an elevator and get off on the second floor, and go through the back door to get to the lunchroom, would there be any way for that elevator to leave the second floor other than for someone to get back on that east elevator and personally operate it?
Mr.Truly. No, sir.
Mr.Belin. In other words, the east elevator you have to actually have an operator on it and it cannot be moved by just pushing a button?
Mr.Truly. That's right.
Mr.Belin. One other question. Just what are Rolling Readers? Is Rolling a company or what is it?
Mr.Truly. Well, if you would look at it you wouldn't know what it was after you opened the box. But it is a new concept in material for reading for children in the first grade, kindergarten and so forth. They are little blocks with words on them that roll out, and then you turn them over. It is something like—I know way back in my childhood they would use number blocks and things like that. But it has words and sentences and things they can put together.
Mr.Dulles. A square like dice?
Mr.Truly. That's right. It looks like dice, only they are bigger. They have the theory that these can interest a lot of children because of the noise they put out here, and they pick them up when they hit the floor and put them together into sentences and things. Something to stimulate the interest of children who are not quite as advanced in their reading.
Mr.Belin. Are they relatively heavy or light cartons?
Mr.Truly. They are very light.
Mr.Belin. The cartons themselves. About how much would a carton of 10 Rolling Readers weigh?
Mr.Truly. I don't think they would weigh over between five and ten pounds.
Mr.Belin. And by 10 Rolling Readers you mean there were 10 sets of the Rolling Readers in each of these cartons shown on Exhibit 504?
Mr.Truly. That's right.
Mr.Belin. At this time we offer in evidence exhibits 490 through 506 inclusive.
Mr.McCloy. They may be admitted.
(The documents heretofore marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 490 through 506, inclusive, for identification, were received in evidence.)
Mr.McCloy. Mr. Truly, I think I heard you say when you were describing the first contact that you had with Oswald that you said, "That is the last time I saw him until November 16th."
Did I hear you say that?
Mr.Truly. No, sir; I did not. If I did, it was a mistake. I saw him on October 16th, the morning he came to work.
Mr.McCloy. I put down here that was the last time you had seen him until November 16th.
Mr.Truly. For the record, if I said that, that is wrong. I meant October 16th.
TheChairman. Which was the next morning?
Mr.Truly. That was the next morning after he was told to come to work.
Mr.Dulles. Do you recall, Mr. Truly, whether you hired any personnel for work in this particular building, in the School Depository, after the 15th of October and before the 22d of November?
Mr.Truly. No, sir; I don't recall hiring anyone else other than Oswald for that building the same day that I hired Oswald. I believe, if I am not mistaken, I hired another boy for a temporary job, and put him in the other warehouse at 1917 North Houston.
Mr.Dulles. At a different warehouse?
Mr.Truly. At a different warehouse. He was laid off November 15th, I believe—November 15th, or something like that.
Mr.Dulles. What I was getting at is whether an accomplice could have gotten in in that way. That is why I was asking the question.
Mr.Truly. No, sir; I don't recall. Actually, the end of our fall rush—if it hadn't existed a week or 2 weeks longer, or if we had not been using some of our regular boys putting down this plywood, we would not have had any need for Lee Oswald at that time, which is a tragic thing for me to think about.
Mr.McCloy. Mr. Truly, while Oswald was in your employ, did you have any inquiries made of you by any of the United States agencies, such as FBI, regarding him?
Mr.Truly. No, sir; nothing ever.
Mr.Dulles. Did Oswald mention to you anything about his trip to Russia and return from Russia?
Mr.Truly. No, sir; he did not. He just told me that he just recently was discharged from the Marines with an honorable discharge. And I suppose that if he had had some background of a few jobs, skipping here and there, I might have investigated those jobs thoroughly.
Mr.Dulles. He did not tell you about those short-time jobs he had?
Mr.Truly. No. The thing is I thought he was just discharged from the service, and we have worked with boys in the past, and they have gone on and got on their feet and got a better job. And I did not give it a thought that he was really just not discharged from the Marines.
Mr.Belin. Mr. Truly, you mentioned the fact that you thought Jack Dougherty was the one operating that west elevator. Is that correct?
Mr.Truly. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Could you tell us a little bit about Jack Dougherty?
Mr.Truly. Jack Dougherty has been working for us 12 or 14 years. Until we moved into this building, he has been mostly in our State Department, the building at 1917 North Houston. He would fill orders for—that called for many cartons of books on a three-textbook-order basis to the various schools in Texas. And he seemed to be intelligent and smart and a hard worker. The main thing is he just worked all the time.
I have never had any occasion to have any hard words for Jack. A few times he would get a little bit—maybe do a little something wrong, and I would mention it to him, and he would just go to pieces—not anything—but anything the rest of the day or the next day would not be right. [Deletion.] He is a great big husky fellow. I think he is 39 years old. He has never been married. He has no interest in women. He gets flustered, has a small word for it, at times. He has never had any trouble. He is a good, loyal, hard working employee. He always has been.
Mr.Belin. Would you consider him of average intelligence?
Mr.Truly. Yes, sir. I think what is wrong with him mostly is his emotional makeup. I would say that for the work he is doing, he is of average intelligence.
Mr.Belin. When you got to the fifth floor, as I understand it, the west elevator was not there, but when you started up from the first floor, you thought it was on the fifth floor.
Mr.Truly. No. When I came down from the second floor—from the seventh floor with the officer, I thought I saw Jack Dougherty on the fifth floor, which he would have had plenty of time to move the elevator down and up and get some stock and come back.
Mr.Belin. But when you got to the fifth floor that west elevator was not there?
Mr.Truly. No, sir.
Mr.Belin. Was it on any floor below the fifth floor?
Mr.Truly. I didn't look.
Mr.Belin. As you were climbing up the floors, you did not see it?
Mr.Truly. No, sir.
Mr.Belin. And if it wasn't on the fifth floor when you got there, it could have been on the sixth or seventh, I assume.
Mr.Truly. No, sir; I don't believe so, because I think I would have heard or seen it coming downstairs when I got on the fifth floor elevator, on the east side.
Mr.Belin. Well, suppose it was just stopped on the sixth floor when you got on the fifth floor elevator. Would you have seen it then?
Mr.Truly. I think so, yes, sir. As we started up from the fifth floor, you could see the top of it at an angle.
Mr.Belin. Were you looking in that direction as you rode up on the fifth floor, or were you facing the east?
Mr.Truly. No, sir. I don't know which way I was looking. I was only intent on getting to the seventh floor.
Mr.Belin. So you cannot say when you passed the sixth floor whether or not an elevator was there?
Mr.Truly. I cannot.
Mr.Belin. When you got to the seventh floor, you got out of the east elevator. Was the west elevator on the seventh floor?
Mr.Truly. No, sir.
Mr.Belin. Are you sure it was not on the seventh floor?
Mr.Truly. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Did you hear the west elevator running at any time when you were riding the elevator from the fifth to the seventh?
Mr.Truly. I was not aware of it.
Mr.Belin. All right. I have no further questions.
TheChairman. Any other questions?
RepresentativeFord. How many employees do you have in the building on the corner of Houston and Elm?
Mr.Truly. I cannot tell you the figures, the total number of the office and all employees. We had about 15, I think. We had 19-warehouse and order-filler boys in both warehouses, and there are only four or five down at the other place. I think we had 15 men working in our warehouse at Houston and Elm on that day.
RepresentativeFord. On November 22d.
Mr.Dulles. Would all of them normally have had access to the sixth floor, or might have gone to the sixth floor?
Mr.Truly. Possibly any—possibly so. We have one man that checks. He hardly fills any orders. And we have one or two that write up freight. But any of the order-fillers there might be a possibility—there might be a possibility they might need something off the sixth floor.
RepresentativeFord. When you noticed the police assembling the employees after the assassination, what prompted you to think that Oswald was not among them?
Mr.Truly. I have asked myself that many times. I cannot give an answer. Unless it was the fact that I knew he was on the second floor, I had seen him 10 or 15 minutes, or whatever it was, before that. That might have brought that boy's name to my mind—because I was looking over there and he was the only one I missed at that time that I could think of. Subconsciously itmight have been because I saw him on the second floor and I knew he was in the building.
RepresentativeFord. Had there been any traits that you had noticed from the time of his employment that might have made you think then that there was a connection between the shooting and Oswald?
Mr.Truly. Not at all. In fact, I was fooled so completely by the sound of—the direction of the shot, that I did not believe—still did not believe—maybe I could not force myself to believe, that the shots came from that building until I learned that they found the gun and the shells there. So I had no feeling whatever that they did come from there. I am sure that did not bring Oswald in my mind. But it was just the fact that they were trying to get people's names.
Mr.Dulles. When you reported that Oswald was missing, do you recall whether you told the police that he had been on the second floor?
Mr.Truly. No, sir; I did not.
Mr.Dulles. You did not?
Mr.Truly. No, sir; I just said, "I have a man that is missing. I don't know whether it means anything, but this is the name."
RepresentativeFord. Do you know about what time that was that you told the police?
Mr.Truly. I could be wrong, but I think it was around 15—between 15 minutes or 20 minutes after the shots, or something. I could be as far off as 5 minutes or so. I don't know. I did not seem to think it was very long. We might have spent more time up on the roof and coming down, and then I might have walked out in the shipping department. Everybody was running up asking questions. Time could fool me. But I did not think it was but about 15 or 20 minutes later.
RepresentativeFord. In your description of Oswald to Captain Fritz, did you describe the kind of clothes that Oswald had on that day?
Mr.Truly. I don't know, sir. No, sir; I just told him his name and where he lived and his telephone number and his age, as 23, and I said 5 feet, 9, about 150 pounds, light brown hair—whatever I picked up off the description there. I did not try to depend on my memory to describe him. I just put down what was on this application blank. That's the reason I called Mr. Aiken, because I did not want to mislead anybody as to a description. I might call a man brown-haired, and he might be blonde.
Mr.Dulles. When you and the officer saw Oswald in the luncheon room, did any words pass between you?
Mr.Truly. No. The officer said something to the boy.