Mr.Jenner. Which made sense.
Mrs.Paine. Made very good sense for a personnel man to say.
Mr.Jenner. Did you make more than one call to this Texas School Book Depository?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. Only the one?
Mrs.Paine. Only the one.
Mr.Jenner. What was the date of this call?
Mrs.Paine. Reconstructing it, I believe it was October 14.
Mr.Jenner. What day of the week is October 14?
Mrs.Paine. It is a Monday.
Mr.Jenner. Following that call and your talking with Mr. Truly, what did you do?
Mrs.Paine. Began to get dinner. Then Lee call the house.
Mr.Jenner. In the evening?
Mrs.Paine. In the early evening.
Mr.Jenner. Did you talk with him?
Mrs.Paine. Marina talked with him, then asked—then Marina asked me totell Lee in English what had transpired regarding the possible job opening, and then I did say that there might be an opening in the School Book Depository, that Mr. Truly was the man to apply to. Shall I go on?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Paine. The nextday——
Mr.Jenner. Excuse me, I meant go on as far as the conversation was concerned.
Mrs.Paine. That is all there was.
Mr.Jenner. Mrs. Paine, I would like to return just for a moment to the conversation in the Roberts' home.
Was any possible place of employment in addition to the Texas School Depository mentioned?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. You have no recollection of any other suggestion as to possible places of employment?
Mrs.Paine. I have no recollection of that.
Mr.Jenner. You have no recollection of any other, at least two other places being suggested, and you, in turn, stating that they would be unsatisfactory, one because an automobile had to be used, or it would be necessary for Lee to have an automobile, and the other that he was lacking in the possible qualifications needed? None of that refreshes your recollection?
Mrs.Paine. None of that refreshes my recollection. I certainly know that I thought, for instance, he couldn't have applied to Bell Helicopter or to any place apart from the city area.
Mr.Jenner. But Bell Helicopter was not mentioned?
Mrs.Paine. I don't recall it being mentioned.
Mr.Jenner. Your husband is employed by Bell Helicopter, is he not?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Had you made an inquiry of your husband as to the possibility of employment by Lee Harvey Oswald with Bell Helicopter?
Mrs.Paine. No; I hadn't, especially knowing that he had no way of getting there.
Mr.Jenner. Unless he knew how to drive a car?
Mrs.Paine. Unless he knew how to drive a car.
Mr.Jenner. You didn't believe he was proficient enough at this moment to operate it?
Mrs.Paine. We have got on record here that I gave him the first lesson on the 13th of October.
Mr.Jenner. And in any event were you aware he had no driver's license?
Mrs.Paine. I certainly was.
Mr.Jenner. Especially that week?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did you give him the telephone number and the address of the Texas School Book Depository on the occasion when you talked to him, this is the 14th?
Mrs.Paine. The address, I don't think so. I probably gave the phone number. I don't recall that I gave him an address.
Mr.Jenner. Directing your attention to your address book, you have an entry in your address book of the Texas School Depository, do you not? Would you turn to that page?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; I have it here.
Mr.Jenner. Is there an entry of address of the Texas School Depository on that page?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; which I believe I made after he gained employment there.
Mr.Jenner. Rather than at the time that you advised him of this possibility?
Mrs.Paine. Indeed.
Mr.Jenner. Have you made an entry of the telephone number of the Texas School Book Depository on that date?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; I have and of the address.
Mr.Jenner. And that is the telephone number and the address of the Texas School Depository Buildingwhere——
Mrs.Paine. On Elm Street.
Mr.Jenner. I heard you mention the Texas School Depository warehouse. Did you think the warehouse was at 411 Elm?
Mrs.Paine. No. I had seen a sign on a building as I went along one of the limited access highways that leads into Dallas, saying "Texas School Book Depository Warehouse" and there was the only building that had registered on my consciousness as being Texas School Book Depository.
I was not aware, hadn't taken in the idea of there being two buildings and that there was one on Elm, though, I copied the address from the telephone book, and could well have made that notation in my mind but I didn't.
The first I realized that there was a building on Elm was when I heard on the television on the morning of the 22d of November that a shot had been fired from such a building.
Mr.Jenner. For the purpose of this record then I would like to emphasize you were under the impression then, were you, that Lee Harvey Oswald was employed?
Mrs.Paine. At the warehouse.
Mr.Jenner. Other than at 411, a place at 411 Elm?
Mrs.Paine. I thought he worked at the warehouse. I had in fact, pointed out the building to my children going into Dallas later after he had gained employment.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever discuss with Lee Harvey Oswald where he actually was employed, that is the location of the building?
Mrs.Paine. No; I didn't.
Mr.Jenner. Did he ever mention it?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. There never was any discussion between you and, say, young Mr. Frazier or Mrs. Randle or anyone in the neighborhood as to where the place of employment is located?
Mrs.Paine. No. It may be significant here to say, my letter to which I have alreadyreferred——
Mr.Jenner. Commission ExhibitNo.——
Mrs.Paine. 425, which says, "Lee Oswald is looking for work in Dallas," does not give a time of day.
Mr.Jenner. What is the date of that letter?
Mrs.Paine. October 14, Monday.
Mr.Jenner. This is the letter to your mother?
Mrs.Paine. But I don't normally write letters any time except when the children are asleep, they sometimes nap but usually this is in the evening.
If it were in the evening it means that he had gotten the suggestion as to a place to apply, but I didn't mention that. I only mentioned that he was looking and was discouraged.
I bring this out simply to say that I had no real hopes that he would get a job at the School Book Depository.
I didn't think it too likely that he would, but it was worth a try.
Mr.Jenner. Did you hear from him then either on the 14th or 15th in respect to his effort to obtaining employment at the Texas School Depository?
Mrs.Paine. He called immediately on Tuesday, the 15th, after he had been accepted and said he would start work the next day.
Mr.Jenner. When you say immediately, what time of day was that?
Mrs.Paine. Midmorning I would say, which was contrary to his usual practice of calling in the early evening.
Mr.Jenner. By the way, is the call from Dallas, Tex., to Irving a toll call?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. What is its cost, 10 cents?
Mrs.Paine. I expect so.
Mr.Jenner. Did you answer the phone on the occasion he called?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. What happened?
Mrs.Paine. He asked for Marina.
Mr.Jenner. He said nothing to you about his success?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. As soon as you answered he asked for Marina?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did he identify himself?
Mrs.Paine. No; but I am certain he knew that I knew who he was.
Mr.Jenner. You recognized his voice, did you?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. You called her to the phone.
Did you hear her end of the conversation?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. What took place by way of of conversation?
Mrs.Paine. She said, "Hurray, he has got a job." Immediately telling me as she still talked to the telephone that he had been accepted for work at the school book depository and thanks to me and she said, "We must thank Mrs. Randle."
Mr.Jenner. Did you return to the telephone and speak with him?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. You did not. Where was he residing then, did you know?
Mrs.Paine. No; I did not know.
Mr.Jenner. Had you had any information that he was not residing at the YMCA?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. How did you come by that information?
Mrs.Paine. He gave me a telephone number, possibly this same weekend.
Mr.Jenner. That is of importance, Mrs. Paine. Would you give us the circumstances, please?
Mrs.Paine. He said that he was ata——
Mr.Jenner. Excuse me, where was he when he said this?
Mrs.Paine. He was at the home so far as I remember. It might have been during one of his telephone calls to the house, but I don't think so. He rarely talked with me when he was out.
Mr.Jenner. This would be the weekend of what?
Mrs.Paine. So this must have been the weekend of the 12th of October, the same weekend.
Mr.Jenner. That was the weekend following his return to Dallas on the 7th of October?
Mrs.Paine. Fourth of October.
Mr.Jenner. He departed on the 7th.
Mrs.Paine. His return to Dallas, I am sorry.
Mr.Jenner. Yes; now, give it as chronologically as you can; how you came by that telephone number, the circumstances under which it was given to you.
Mrs.Paine. He said this is the telephone number.
Mr.Jenner. Was Marina present?
Mrs.Paine. Yes. He said of the room where he was staying, renting a room, and I could reach him here if she went into labor.
Mr.Jenner. I see, the coming of the baby was imminent?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. When was the baby expected?
Mrs.Paine. Any time after the first week in October. Any time, in other words.
Mr.Jenner. The obstetrician predicted the birth of the child as when?
Mrs.Paine. As due on the 22d.
Mr.Jenner. Did Marina have a different notion?
Mrs.Paine. She thought it might be due around the 8th.
Mr.Jenner. So there was a considerable variance in the expectation between the date and when the baby actually did arrive? When did the baby actually arrive?
Mrs.Paine. On the 20th of October, a Sunday.
Mr.Jenner. Did he give you more than one telephone number?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. At this occasion did he give you more than one telephone number?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. Just stick to this particular occasion. What telephone number—did you record it?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. In what?
Mrs.Paine. In ink in my telephone book.
Mr.Jenner. Your telephone and address book?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Have you opened that telephone address book to the page in which you have made that recording?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; I have.
Mr.Jenner. Is that the page you identified yesterday?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Excuse me, Mr. Chairman, may I examine it for a moment here.
Now, relate for the record the telephone number that Mr. Oswald gave you, the first one he gave you on this particular occasion?
Mrs.Paine. The number was WH 2-1985.
Mr.Jenner. And that is at the bottom of the page written in ink.
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Is that in your handwriting?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; it is.
Mr.Jenner. What exchange is "WH" in Dallas?
Mrs.Paine. I don't know. I did not know. I know now, maybe I know, Whitehall, something. I know now what it is, but I didn't know then.
Mr.Jenner. Did he on that occasion say anything about where the apartment or room was?
Mrs.Paine. No; he did not.
Mr.Jenner. He did not give you an address?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. Didn't locate it in any area in Dallas?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. All he gave you was the telephone number?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did he say anything that would indicate to you that you are other than free to call him and ask for him by his surname you knew him by?
Mrs.Paine. No; he did not make such a limitation.
Mr.Jenner. I take it from your testimony that the number was given to you, at least the discussion was, so that you could call him in connection with the oncoming event of the birth of his child?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Am I correct about this?
Mrs.Paine. That is correct.
Mr.Jenner. Now, you have mentioned a second number that Mr. Oswald, Lee Harvey Oswald, gave you. Did you receive that second number subsequent to the birth of Rachel or prior to that time?
Mrs.Paine. Also prior to the birth of Rachel.
Mr.Jenner. Now, relate for the Commission the circumstances under which you received a second number?
Mrs.Paine. He gave me a second number, I suppose by phone, but I don't recall.
Mr.Jenner. When?
Mrs.Paine. It was certainly before the birth of the baby because again it was so that I could reach him if she went to the hospital.
Mr.Jenner. He called you or related this to you in your home?
Mrs.Paine. What?
Mr.Jenner. He either called you by telephone or he was present in your home and gave you the second number?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Which recollection serves you best, that he called or that he gave it to you in your home?
Mrs.Paine. I don't recall.
Mr.Jenner. What did he say?
Mrs.Paine. He said he moved to different rooms, was paying a dollar aweek more, $8 instead of $7; incidentally, I needed to know how much he was paying in order to put this on the form of Parkland Hospital, but that it was a little more comfortable and he had television privileges and privileges to use the refrigerator. And he gave me this number.
Mr.Jenner. This was after he obtained employment with the Texas School Book Depository, was it?
Mrs.Paine. I would rationalize that I have judged so.
Mr.Jenner. Is it your best recollection?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. On the second occasion did he give you the location or even the area in Dallas where his second room was located?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. Did you inquire of him?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. No address?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. Was the telephone number given you with any reservation as to when you might call him?
Mrs.Paine. No such reservation.
Mr.Jenner. Any indication that you should ask him, asking for him by other than his surname by which you knew him?
Mrs.Paine. No such indication.
Mr.Jenner. Now, the baby was born onthe——
Mrs.Paine. Twentieth.
Mr.Jenner. Twentieth of October. Was Lee present, in town, I mean?
Mrs.Paine. He was at the house in Irving when labor began, and stayed at the house to take care of June and my two children who were sleeping while I took Marina to the hospital since I was the one who could drive.
Mr.Jenner. All right. The 20th is—when did you take her to the hospital?
Mrs.Paine. Around 9 o'clock in the evening.
Mr.Jenner. What day?
Mrs.Paine. Sunday, the 20th of October.
Mr.Jenner. And Lee Harvey Oswald was out there on that weekend on one of his regular visits?
Mrs.Paine. Yes. The first one since he had employment.
RepresentativeFord. Did you ever call either one of those numbers?
Mrs.Paine. Yes. We will get to it.
Mr.Jenner. You will forgive me because I would like to bring out the particular circumstances of the call.
RepresentativeFord. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did Lee go back into town on Monday to go to work?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; he did. I informed him in the morning that he had a baby girl. He was already asleep when I got back—no; that is not right. He was not asleep when I got back from the hospital, but he had gone to bed, and I stayed up and waited to call the hospital to hear what word there was. So, that I knew after he was already asleep that he had a baby girl. I told him in the morning before he went to work.
Mr.Jenner. You called him in Dallas?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. I am a little confused.
Mrs.Paine. No; I am sorry, I will begin again. I took her to the hospital and then I returned. I didn't feel I could stay. I thought I should get back to my children.
Mr.Jenner. This was Sunday night.
Mrs.Paine. Sunday night.
He went to bed, put Junie to bed. I stayed up and waited until what I considered a proper time and then called the hospital to hear what news there was. They had implied I could come and visit, too, but that would have been incorrect, and learned that he had a baby girl. I then went to bed and told him in the morning.
Mr.Jenner. You did not awaken him then?
Mrs.Paine. I did not awaken him. I thought about it and I decided if he was not interested in being awake I would tell him in the morning.
Mr.Jenner. And the morning was Monday?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Having learned that he was the father of a baby girl, I assume you told him that?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did he go to work that day?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did he return to Irving that evening?
Mrs.Paine. Yes. It was agreed when he left that he would return that evening.
Mr.Jenner. How did he—was he brought back to Irving that evening?
Mrs.Paine. I imagine Wesley brought him.
Mr.Jenner. At least you did not?
Mrs.Paine. I did not.
Mr.Jenner. Did he visit with Marina at the hospital that evening?
Mrs.Paine. When he arrived it was not decided whether he would go to the hospital or not. He thought not, and I thought he should, and encouraged him to go.
Mr.Jenner. Why did he think he ought not to go?
Mrs.Paine. I am uncertain about this. This thought crossed my mind that perhaps he thought they would find out he was working, but I had already told them he was working since I had been asked at the hospital when she was admitted and I mentioned this and it may have changed his mind about going, but this is conjecture on my part.
Mr.Jenner. In any event he did go?
Mrs.Paine. He did go. It was a good thing as he was the only one admitted, I was not either a father or grandmother so I was not permitted to get in.
Mr.Jenner. I see, and you waited until his visit was over and returned home with him?
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. Did he return to work the next morning?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; he did.
Mr.Jenner. When next did you hear from him?
Mrs.Paine. The following Friday he came out again.
Mr.Jenner. Do you know how he returned to Dallas that following morning, that is the 22d?
Mrs.Paine. Probably went with Wesley also.
Mr.Jenner. And he came out the following weekend, did he?
Mrs.Paine. Yes. That was his birthday.
Mr.Jenner. The 18th of October is his birthday. Did you have a party for him?
Mrs.Paine. We had a cake; yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Was that weekend uneventful?
Mrs.Paine. Well, Marina was already home.
Mr.Jenner. The baby was now home. She came home very quickly?
Mrs.Paine. Very quickly, a day and a half. She was home on Tuesday, the 16th, is that right—skipped a day, the 22d. So that his party was the week before, too. I was wrong then.
Mr.Jenner. When did he return, on Friday of that week?
Mrs.Paine. Yes, which was the 25th. I was mistaken.
Mr.Jenner. Did he call in each day in the interim?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And talk to Marina and to you?
Mrs.Paine. Well, to Marina.
Mr.Jenner. Inquire about the baby?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. You overheard some of the conversation?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Was anything said about the nature of his reaction to his positionat the Texas School Book Depository on the second weekend when he came home?
Mrs.Paine. You are talking about the weekend of the 26th?
Mr.Jenner. That is right.
Mrs.Paine. No; I don't recall anything being said.
Mr.Jenner. Now, the next weekend was November 1st to 3d, which is Friday to Sunday, is that correct?
Mrs.Paine. Right.
Mr.Jenner. Was he home on that weekend?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; he was.
Mr.Jenner. And did anything eventful occur on that weekend?
Mrs.Paine. Just a minute. What I was looking for, I wanted to find out whether I had taught a Russian lesson to my single student whom I saw some Saturday afternoon on that weekend, and I recall that I did not. So, the answer is no. I was there that Saturday. May I say if there was a weekend other than October 12 when he came on Saturday instead of Friday night, it was to have been that weekend?
Mr.Jenner. Which weekend?
Mrs.Paine. The weekend of the 1st to the 3d. That is my best recollection anyway.
Mr.Jenner. All right. But other than that possibility, there was nothing—it was a normal weekend at your home?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Now, following that weekend, which was the weekend of November 8 through 10, I think you have already described that weekend. That was the one on which you went to the Texas driver's application bureau, is it not?
Mrs.Paine. Yes. I recall him writing something on the early morning of Saturday—this "Dear Sirs" letter.
Mr.Jenner. Yes; this is the letter or draft of letter dealing with his reporting his visit to Mexico.
Mrs.Paine. Or stating that he had done such a thing, which I did not fully credit.
Mr.Jenner. Did he come the following weekend, that is the weekend of November 15 through 17?
Mrs.Paine. No; he did not.
Mr.Jenner. Why?
Mrs.Paine. Marina asked him not to.
Mr.Jenner. This was the weekend preceding the ill-fated assassination day?
Mrs.Paine. That is correct.
Mr.Jenner. Why did she ask him not to?
Mrs.Paine. She felt he had overstayed his welcome the previous weekend which had been 3 days, 9th, 10th, and 11th because he was off Veterans Day, the 11th of November, and she felt it would be simpler and more comfortable if he didn't come out.
Mr.Jenner. Had you had a discussion with her prior to that time on that subject?
Mrs.Paine. I had not suggested that to her.
Mr.Jenner. Did you overhear her tell him that?
Mrs.Paine. I did tell her I was planning a birthday party for my little girl, and I heard her tell Lee not to come out because I was having a birthday party. At some point in this same telephone conversation likely I told him he did not need to have a car but to go himself to the driver training station.
Mr.Jenner. You have described that event for us heretofore this afternoon.
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Or this morning, I have forgotten which.
Mr.McCloy. May I interrupt here. I wonder whether or not you would want to take a rest now. We have been pretty arduous and let's take a little recess now.
(Short recess.)
Mr.Jenner. Mr. Reporter, would you read the last interchange or question and answer?
(The reporter read the question and answer.)
Mr.Jenner. Would you fix as best you can for us, the date or time that you first saw the wrapped blanket after you had returned to Irving? How long after that event did you see it to the best of your recollection?
Mrs.Paine. I have said it was the latter part of October. I don't think I can fix it more exactly.
Mr.Jenner. That would be almost or would be over a month afterwards? You returned on September 24?
Mrs.Paine. I don't recall thinking, that is, that anything like that marks it as being particular noticeable. So that I am judging that I recall seeing it in October, somewhere towards the end.
Mr.Jenner. Had anything occurred at that time that now leads you to fix it at the latter part of October?
Mrs.Paine. No; there is no way that I have to fix it.
Mr.Jenner. Did you stumble over it or something?
Mr.McCloy. Could it have been as early as October 4 or the 7th when you first got the call from him when he first returned to Dallas?
Mrs.Paine. Conceivably, but I don't remember.
Mr.Dulles. Then you saw it on another occasion, how many days later was that?
Mrs.Paine. I can't fix it that near.
Mr.Dulles. It was several days later, was it, the time when it seemed to have been moved from position "X" to position "XX"?
Mrs.Paine. Oh, yes; that was later.
Mr.McCloy. Can you place it at all, can you place your recollection at all as having seen it in relation to the assassination? The date of the assassination? Was it 2 weeks before, 3 weeks before?
Mrs.Paine. I have inquired of myself for some weeks, was such a package in my station wagon when I arrived from New Orleans, and I cannot recall it, but I cannot be at all certain that there wasn't. I certainly didn't unload it. I never lifted such a package.
Mr.Jenner. Only you and Marina took things out of your station wagon at that time?
Mrs.Paine. That is correct.
Mr.Jenner. And you didnot——
Mrs.Paine. So I think I would have seen it.
Mr.Dulles. In your earlier testimony I think in reply to a question, you indicated that you and Marina had only talked about this after the assassination that afternoon.
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Dulles. If it is not out of order, I would like to get that into the testimony maybe at this date what took place between them at that time.
Mr.Jenner. On the 22d?
Mr.Dulles. Yes.
Mr.McCloy. I think it is best to leave it at the 22d.
Mr.Jenner. I was going to take her chronologically.
Mr.Dulles. Just so you recall that.
Mr.McCloy. But you can't recall having gone into the garage for any purpose and having stepped over this thing or around it at any time that you would associate with his return from New Orleans and Houston, if he went to Houston?
Mrs.Paine. My best recollection is that it was after, it was in October, therefore.
Mr.McCloy. But later than the 7th of October, you think?
Mrs.Paine. Later than that, yes. That is the best I can do.
Mr.McCloy. But well before the day of November 22?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. I think I have oriented myself without having the reporter read and may I proceed, Mr. Chairman?
Mr.McCloy. Surely.
Mr.Jenner. We have now reached the weekend of the 15th, 16th, and 17th, which is the weekend that Lee Harvey Oswald did not return to your home.
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. You had just finished relating that Marina had told him not to come that particular weekend?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Now, was there an occasion during the course of that weekend when a phone call was made to Lee Harvey Oswald. I direct your attention particularly to Sunday evening, the 17th of November.
Mrs.Paine. Looking back on it, I thought that there was a call made to him by me on Monday the 18th, but I may be wrong about when it was made.
Mr.Jenner. Did Marina call him this Sunday evening, November 17?
Mrs.Paine. No. There was only one call made at any one time to him, to my knowledge.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall an occasion when a call was made to him and you girls were unable to reach him when that call was made?
Mrs.Paine. Yes. I will describe the call, and there is a dispute over what night it was.
Mr.Jenner. I would like your best recollection, first as to when it occurred. Was it during the weekend that he did not return to your home, the weekend immediately preceding the assassination day? Do you recall that Marina was lonesome and she wished you to make a call to Lee and you did so at her request?
Mrs.Paine. I recall certainly we had talked with Lee, on the telephone already that weekend because he called to say that he had been to attempt to get a driver's license permit.
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Paine. Whether he called that Saturday or whether he had called Sunday, I am not certain. Indeed, I am not certain but what he had called the very day, had already called and talked with Marina the very day that I then, at her request, tried to reach him at the number he had given me, with his number in my telephone book.
Junie was fooling with the telephone dial, and Marina said, "Let's call papa" and askedme——
Mr.Jenner. Was this at night?
Mrs.Paine. It was early evening, still light.
Mr.Jenner. Was it on a weekend?
Mrs.Paine. I would have said it was Monday but I am not certain of that.
Mr.Jenner. Wasit——
Mrs.Paine. That is my best recollection, is that it was Monday.
Mr.Jenner. All we want is your best recollection. If it was a Monday, was it the Monday following the weekend that he did not come?
Mrs.Paine. Yes, certainly it was.
Mr.Jenner. I see. That is if it was a Monday, it was the Monday preceding November 22?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mr.Dulles. Could I ask one question?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mr.Dulles. Was there any evidence that the hint you gave, or that was given, to Lee Harvey not to come over this weekend caused him any annoyance? Was he put out by this, and did he indicate it?
Mrs.Paine. I made no such request of him. Marina talked with him on the phone.
Mr.Dulles. I realize that.
Mrs.Paine. And she made no mention of any irritation. Of course, I didn't hear what he said in response to her asking him not to come.
Mr.Dulles. And it didn't come out in any of these subsequent telephone messages which we are now discussing?
Mrs.Paine. No; I think I probably talked with him during that same telephone conversation to say that he could go without a car, and there was no irritation I noticed.
Mr.Dulles. Thank you.
Mr.Jenner. But it is your definite recollection that his failure to come on the weekend preceding the assassination was not at his doing but at the request of Marina, under the circumstances you have related?
Mrs.Paine. I am absolutely clear about that.
Mr.Jenner. You are absolutely clear about that. All right. Now, state, you began to state the circumstances of the telephone call. Would you in your own words and your own chronology proceed with that, please?
Mrs.Paine. Marina had said, "Let's call papa," in Russian and asked me to dial the number for her, knowing that I had a number that he had given us. I then dialed thenumber——
Mr.Jenner. Excuse me, did you dial the first or the second number?
Mrs.Paine. The second number.
Mr.Jenner. And that number is?
Mrs.Paine. WH 3-8993.
Mr.Jenner. When you dialed the number did someone answer?
Mrs.Paine. Someone answered and I said, "Is Lee Oswald there?" And the person replied, "There is no Lee Oswald here," or something to that effect.
Mr.Jenner. Would it refresh your recollection if he said, "There is nobody by that name here"?
Mrs.Paine. Or it may have been "nobody by that name" or "I don't know Lee Oswald." It could have been any of these.
Mr.Jenner. We want your best recollection.
Mrs.Paine. My best recollection is that he repeated the name.
Mr.Jenner. He repeated the name?
Mrs.Paine. But that is not a certain recollection.
Mr.Jenner. I take it then from the use of the pronoun that the person who answered was a man?
Mrs.Paine. Was a man.
Mr.Jenner. And if you will just sit back and relax a little. I would like to have you restate, if you now will, in your own words, what occurred?
You dialed the telephone, someone answered, a male voice?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. What did he say and what did you say?
Mrs.Paine. I said, "Is Lee Oswald there." He said, "There is no Lee Oswald living here." As best as I can recall. This is the substance of what he said. I said, "Is this a rooming house." He said "Yes." I said, "Is this WH 3-8993?" And he said "Yes." I thanked him and hung up.
Mr.Jenner. When you hung up then what did you next do or say?
Mrs.Paine. I said to Marina, "They don't know of a Lee Oswald at that number."
Mr.Jenner. What did she say?
Mrs.Paine. She didn't say anything.
Mr.Jenner. Just said nothing?
Mrs.Paine. She looked surprised.
Mr.Jenner. Did she evidence any surprise?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; she did, she looked surprised.
Mr.Dulles. You are quite sure you used the first name "Lee," did you, you did not say just "Mr. Oswald," or something of that kind?
Mrs.Paine. I would not say "Mr. Oswald." It is contrary to Quaker practice, and I don't normally do it that way.
Mr.Jenner. Contrary to Quaker practice?
Mrs.Paine. They seldom use "Mister."
Mr.Jenner. I see.
Mr.Dulles. And you wouldn't have said "Harvey Oswald," would you?
Mrs.Paine. I knew he had a middle name but only because I filled out forms in Parkland Hospital. It was never used with him.
Mr.Jenner. You do recall definitely that you asked for Lee Oswald?
Mrs.Paine. I cannot be that definite. But I believe I asked for him. Oh, yes; I recall definitely what I asked. I cannot be definite about the man's reply, whether he included the full name in his reply.
Mr.Jenner. But you did?
Mrs.Paine. I asked for the full name, "Is Lee Oswald there."
Mr.Jenner. Did you report this incident to the FBI?
Mrs.Paine. I had no occasion to see them, and I did not think it important enough to call them after that until the 23d of November.
Mr.Jenner. Perhaps I may well have deferred that question until after I asked you the next.
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did any event occur the following day with respect to this telephone call?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; Leecalled——
Mr.Jenner. What was it?
Mrs.Paine. Lee called at the house and asked for Marina. I was in the kitchen where the phone is while Marina talked with him, she clearly was upset, and angry, and when she hungup——
Mr.Jenner. Excuse me, did you overhear this conversation?
Mrs.Paine. I overheard the conversation but I can't tell you specific content.
Mr.Jenner. Please, Mrs. Paine, would you do your very best to recall what was said?
Mrs.Paine. I can tell you what she said to me which was immediately after, which is what I definitely recall.
Mr.Jenner. Thank you.
Mrs.Paine. She said immediately he didn't like her trying to reach him at the phone in his room at Dallas yesterday. That he was angry with her for having tried to reach him. That he said he was using a different name, and she said, "This isn't the first time I felt 22 fires," a Russian expression.
Mr.Jenner. This is something she said?
Mrs.Paine. She said this. This is not the first time, but it was the first time she had mentioned it to me.
Mr.Jenner. Give her exact words to me again.
Mrs.Paine. When she felt 22 fires.
Mr.Jenner. That is the expression she used?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did you understand what she meant or, if not, did you ask for an explanation?
Mrs.Paine. I did not ask for an explanation. I judged she meant, she disagreed with his using a different name, but didn't feel like, empowered to make him do otherwise or even perhaps ask to as a wife.
Mr.Dulles. How long a conversation was this. Wasit——
Mrs.Paine. Fairly short.
Mr.Dulles. Fairly short.
Mrs.Paine. That is my recollection.
RepresentativeFord. What day of the month and what day of the week was this?
Mrs.Paine. Well, reconstructing it, I thought they succeeded each other, the original call to the WH number on Monday and his call back on Tuesday.
RepresentativeFord. When he called back it was late in the afternoon or early evening?
Mrs.Paine. It was the normal time for him to call back, early evening, around 5:30.
Mr.Jenner. You have a definite impression she was angry when she hung up?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Was she abrupt in her hanging up. Did she hang up on him?
Mrs.Paine. No; she was angry, she was upset.
Mr.Jenner. And her explanation of her being upset was that he used the assumed name?
Mrs.Paine. Well, she didn't explain it as such, but she said he had used it.
Mr.Jenner. He was angry with her because you had made the call?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Or she had made it through you?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did any further discussion take place between you and Marina on that subject?
Mrs.Paine. Yes. The following day he did not call at the usual time.
Mr.Jenner. That would be the following day, the 20th?
Mrs.Paine. I believe that was a Wednesday and that is how I slipped a day.
Mr.Jenner. He didn't call at all on the succeeding day?
Mrs.Paine. He didn't call at all, and she said to me as the time for normally calling passed, "He thinks he is punishing me."
Mr.Jenner. For what?
Mrs.Paine. For having been a bad wife, I would judge, for having done something he didn't want her to do, the objection.
Mr.Jenner. To wit, the telephone call about which you have told us?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did you and Marina go through a normal day that day, or was there any other subject of discussion with respect to Lee Oswald on that day?
Mrs.Paine. Nothing I would specifically recall; no.
Mr.Jenner. This was the 20th of November, a Wednesday?
Mrs.Paine. To the best of my recollection.
Mr.Jenner. Let's proceed with the 21st. Did anything occur on the 21st with respect to Lee Harvey Oswald, that is a Thursday?
Mrs.Paine. I arrived home from grocery shopping around 5:30, and he was on the front lawn. I was surprised to see him.
Mr.Jenner. You had no advance notice?
Mrs.Paine. I had no advance notice and he had never before come without asking whether he could.
Mr.Jenner. Never before had he come to your home in that form without asking your permission to come?
Mrs.Paine. Without asking permission; that is right.
Mr.Jenner. And he was out on the lawn as you drove up, on your lawn?
Mrs.Paine. That is right. Playing with June and talking with Marina, who was also out on the lawn.
Mr.Jenner. And you were, of course, surprised to see him?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did you park your car in the driveway as usual?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did you walk over to speak with him?
Mrs.Paine. Yes, got out, very likely picked some groceries out of the car and he very likely picked some up too, and this is I judge what may have happened.
Mr.Jenner. Tell the Commission what was said between you and Lee Oswald?
Mrs.Paine. Between me and Lee Oswald?
Mr.Jenner. Yes; on that occasion.
Mrs.Paine. That is not what I recall. I recall talking with Marina on the side.
Mr.Jenner. First. Didn't you greet him?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; I greeted him.
Mr.Jenner. And then what did you do, walk in the house?
Mrs.Paine. As we were walking in the house, and he must have preceded because Marina and I spoke in private to one another, she apologized.
Mr.Jenner. Was Marina out on the lawn also?
Mrs.Paine. Yes, sir. She apologized for his having come without permission and I said that was all right, and we said either then or later—I recall exchanging our opinion that this was a way of making up the quarrel or as close as he could come to an apology for the fight on the telephone, that his coming related to that, rather than anything else.
Mr.Jenner. That was her reaction to his showing up uninvited and unexpectedly on that particular afternoon, was it?
Mrs.Paine. Well, it was rather my own, too.
Mr.Jenner. And it was your own?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And because of this incident of the telephone call and your not being able to reach him, and the subsequent talk between Lee and Marina in which there had been some anger expressed, you girls reached the conclusion the afternoon of November 21 that he was home just to see if he could make up with Marina?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Do I fairly state it?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. What did you do that evening? Did you have occasion to note what he did?
Mrs.Paine. We had dinner as usual, and then I sort of bathed my children, putting them to bed and reading them a story, which put me in one part of the house. When that was done I realized he had already gone to bed, this being now about 9 o'clock. I went out to the garage to paint some children's blocks, and worked in the garage for half an hour or so. I noticed when I went out that the light was on.
Mr.Jenner. The light was on in the garage?
Mrs.Paine. The light was on in the garage.
Mr.Jenner. Was this unusual?
Mrs.Paine. Oh, it was unusual for it to be on; yes. I realized that I felt Lee, since Marina had also been busy with her children, had gone out to the garage, perhaps worked out there or gotten something. Most of their clothing was still out there, all of their winter things. They were getting things out from time to time, warmer things for the cold weather, so it was not at all remarkable that he went to the garage, but I thought it careless of him to have left the light on. I finished my work and then turned off the light and left the garage.
Mr.Jenner. Have you completed that now?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. You stated that he was in the garage, how did you know he was in the garage?
Mr.McCloy. She didn't state that.
Mrs.Paine. I didn't state it absolutely. I guessed it was he rather than she. She was busy with the children and the light had been on and I know I didn't leave the light on.
Mr.Jenner. Then, I would ask you directly, did you see him in the garage at anytime from the time you first saw him on the lawn until he retired for the night?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. Until you retired for the night?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. Was he out on the lawn after dinner or supper?
Mrs.Paine. I don't believe so.
Mr.Jenner. Did you hear any activity out in the garage on that evening?
Mrs.Paine. No; I did not.
Mr.Jenner. Any persons moving about?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. The only thing that arrested your attention was the fact that you discovered the light on in the garage?
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. Before you retired?
RepresentativeFord. You discovered that when you went out to work there?
Mrs.Paine. When I went out to work there.
Mr.McCloy. When you went out there, did you notice the blanket?
Mrs.Paine. I don't recall specifically seeing the blanket. I certainly recall on the afternoon of the 22d where it had been.
Mr.Dulles. Was there any evidence of any quarreling or any harsh words between Lee Harvey and Marina that evening that you know of?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. Was there a coolness between them?
Mrs.Paine. He went to bed very early, she stayed up and talked with me some, but there was no coolness that I noticed. He was quite friendly on the lawn aswe——
Mr.Jenner. I mean coolness between himself and—between Lee and Marina.
Mrs.Paine. I didn't notice any such coolness. Rather, they seemed warm, like a couple making up a small spat, I should interject one thing here, too, that I recall as I entered the house and Lee had just come in, I said to him, "Our President is coming to town."
And he said, "Ah, yes," and walked on into the kitchen, which was a commonreply from him on anything. I was just excited about this happening, and there was his response. Nothing more was said about it.
Mr.Dulles. I didn't quite catch his answer.
Mrs.Paine. "Ah, yes," a very common answer.
Mr.Jenner. He gave no more than that laconic answer?
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. Had there been any discussion between you and Marina that the President was coming into town the next day?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did she say anything on that subject in the presence of Lee that evening?