Mr.Jenner. I am going to have to have you do that over on a sheet of paper. Will you remain standing for the moment. We will give it an exhibit number. But I would like to have you proceed there. What did you say this was, in the lower diagram?
Mrs.Paine. You are looking down.
Mr.Jenner. Now, where was the break?
Mrs.Paine. The break?
Mr.Jenner. You said they were extension.
Mrs.Paine. That is right. When they are up on the window, it would be like that.
Mr.Jenner. You have drawn a double line to indicate what would be seen if you were looking down into the U-shape of the rod?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. The double line indicates what on either side?
Mrs.Paine. That the lightweight metal, white, turned over, bent around, something less than a quarter of an inch on each side.
Mr.Jenner. Now, would you be good enough to make the same drawing. We will mark that sheet as Commission Exhibit No. 449 upon which the witness is now drawing the curtain rod.
(Commission Exhibit No. 449 was marked for identification.)
Mr.Jenner. While you are doing that, Mrs. Paine, would you be good enough when you return to Irving, Tex., to see if those rods are at hand, and some of our men are going to be in Irving next week. We might come out and take a look at them, and perhaps you might surrender them to us.
Mrs.Paine. You are perfectly welcome to them.
Mr.Jenner. Would you in that connection, Mrs. Paine, do not open the package until we arrive?
Mrs.Paine. I won't even look, then.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Now, would you mark "A" in the upper elevation and "B" in the lower elevation. The elevation in the drawing you have indicated as "A" is a depiction of what?
Mrs.Paine. The curtain rod, as you might look at it from the top when it is hanging in its position, when it is placed in position on the window.
Mr.Jenner. And "B"?
Mrs.Paine. "B" is as it might appear if you could look at it from outside the house; the window.
Mr.Jenner. While the rod was in place?
Mrs.Paine. While the rod was in place.
Mr.Jenner. You have written to the left-hand side "Place at which it attaches to wall fixture," indicating the butt end of the curved side of the rod?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And the two oblongs, each of which you have put at the ends of depiction "B," represent the upturned ends of the fixtures at each end?
Mrs.Paine. Right.
Mr.Jenner. Would you put a little line as to where the break was in the rod.
I offer in evidence, Mr. Chairman, as Commission Exhibit No. 449 the drawing that the witness has just made, and about which she has testified.
SenatorCooper. It will be admitted as part of the evidence.
(Commission Exhibit No. 449 was received in evidence.)
Mr.Jenner. Had there been any conversation between you and Lee Oswald, or between you and Marina, or any conversation taking place in your presence prior to this occasion, in which the subject of curtain rods was mentioned?
Mrs.Paine. No; there was no such conversation.
Mr.Jenner. Was the subject of curtain rods—had that ever been mentioned during all of these weekends that Lee Oswald had come to your home, commencing, I think you said, with his first return on October 4, 1963?
Mrs.Paine. It had not been mentioned.
Mr.Jenner. Never by anybody?
Mrs.Paine. By anybody.
Mr.Jenner. Had the subject of curtain rods been mentioned even inadvertently, let us say, by some neighbor talking about the subject, as to whether you had some curtain rods you weren't using?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. That might be loaned? I think you had testified that the curtain rods, when unextended, were 36 inches long, approximately?
Mrs.Paine. That is a guess. I would say, thinking further about it, it must be shorter than that. One went over a window that I am pretty sure was 30 inches wide, and one went over a window that was 42 inches wide, so it had to extend between these. They were identical, and had served at these different windows.
Mr.Jenner. The rods were identical in length when unextended?
Mrs.Paine. Or when fully extended; yes.
Mr.Jenner. What?
Mrs.Paine. Or when fully extended.
Mr.Jenner. Or when fully extended; yes. They could be extended to as great as 42 inches?
Mrs.Paine. At least that. I am just saying what windows they were used for.
Mr.Jenner. If the rods are still available, we will be able to obtain them?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And we will know exactly their length, extended and unextended. Now, as you think further about it, the rods when not extended, that is, when pushed together, might be but 30 inches long?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Because you recall that you have a 30-inch-wide window.
Mrs.Paine. I believe it is more that width than 36.
Mr.Jenner. Would you hold up your hands to indicate what you think the width or the length of the rods is when not extended?
Mrs.Paine. Oh, I don't recall. Maybe like this.
Mr.Jenner. Would you measure that, Mr. Liebeler, please?
Mr.Liebeler. About 28 inches.
Mr.Jenner. I intend to leave the subject of the curtain rods, gentlemen, if you have any questions.
Mr.McCloy. May I ask a question. Did the FBI question you about the curtain rods any, or the Dallas police officials?
Mrs.Paine. Not the Dallas police.
Mr.McCloy. Not the Dallas police?
Mrs.Paine. No. It is possible the FBI did. I don't recall such question.
Mr.McCloy. They didn't take any rods from the garage that you are aware of?
Mrs.Paine. You are aware what the police took. I never did know exactly what they took. I have never heard any mention of the rods having left.
Mr.McCloy. You are not conscious of the Dallas police ever talking to you about curtain rods?
Mrs.Paine. Absolutely no.
Mr.McCloy. But possibly some member of the FBI did?
Mrs.Paine. Possibly. I can't recall.
Mr.McCloy. You can't recall?
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever mention to the FBI anything, or anybody else up until recently, the existence of the curtain rods about which you have now testified?
Mrs.Paine. I have already said Michael and I discussed it.
Mr.Jenner. When?
Mrs.Paine. A week or two after the assassination would be my guess.
Mr.Jenner. And did you discuss those particular curtain rods about which you have now testified?
Mrs.Paine. We were particularly interested in seeing if the wrapping paper that we used to wrap these things was there, and it was. I recall that.
RepresentativeFord. Did Lee Oswald know where you kept this roll of wrapping paper?
Mrs.Paine. To the best of my knowledge, he did not know where I kept it. I had never wrapped something when he was around. Neither he nor Marina had ever asked to use this paper or the string that I had.
RepresentativeFord. Where did you keep it? I don't recall precisely.
Mrs.Paine. I can be very clear. There is a picture here of a large secretary desk on Commission Exhibit No. 435. It is in the bottom drawer, you see, in that desk. This is not the secretary desk uponwhich——
Mr.Jenner. The note was found?
Mrs.Paine. The note was found.
RepresentativeFord. You kept it in the lower drawer?
Mrs.Paine. Along with some gum tape and string.
RepresentativeFord. And this is the section shown on Commission Exhibit 435?
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. Mr. Reporter, you caught the measurement by Mr. Liebeler, 28 inches. Mrs. Paine, what is your best recollection as to how many curtain rods there were?
Mrs.Paine. Two, I am certain.
Mr.Jenner. Just two? And you wrapped the package yourself, did you?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. When you and Michael undertook your discussion about curtain rods, did you or did he open up this package?
Mrs.Paine. I don't recall.
Mr.Jenner. Is it your present best recollection that as far as you know, the package, as far as wrapping is concerned, is in the same condition now as when you wrapped it initially?
Mrs.Paine. Certainly very similar.
SenatorCooper. What was the answer?
Mrs.Paine. Certainly very similar. I don't recall making any change.
Mr.Jenner. Is there a possibility that the package was unwrapped at anytime?
Mrs.Paine. In connection with this inquiry of Michael's; yes.
Mr.Jenner. You think he might have but you don't know.
Mrs.Paine. Or I might have. I don't recall. I recall that it wasn't something that interested me as much as the other things I had to get done.
Mr.Jenner. But the rods about which you have testified as far as you know are on the shelf in your garage at your home?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall whether when the FBI discussed this subject with you, if you can recall that, that you advised the FBI of these particular curtain rods?
Mrs.Paine. I am not perfectly certain that they discussed it with me.
Mr.Jenner. You just have no recollection of any interview with the FBI on this particular subject?
Mrs.Paine. It seems to me they brought it up, but I don't recall the content nor whether they went out. I certainly think I would remember if I had gone out to the garage with an FBI representative.
Mr.Jenner. But you do not?
Mrs.Paine. But I do not remember such an occasion.
Mr.Jenner. Unless the members of the Commission have any further questions with respect to the curtain rods, I will return to the afternoon.
SenatorCooper. I want to ask just two questions. Before the assassination, did you know where the package with the curtain rods in it was situated within the garage?
Mrs.Paine. I gave it no attention but yes, it is my impression that I did go out to see if things were where I expected to find them. They were wrapped in brown paper, the curtain rods and venetian blinds. And found things there. I don't recall that I looked into the package.
Mr.Jenner. You did find the package?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. What was the size of the package in length and width if you can remember at the time you wrapped it?
Mrs.Paine. I suppose about like this, not closed but just wrapping paper folded over.
Mr.Jenner. Would you hold your hands there please.
Mrs.Paine. Yes. But by no means a neat package, just enough to keep the dust off.
Mr.Liebeler. Thirty-two and a half inches.
SenatorCooper. What was the width of the package?
Mrs.Paine. Like so.
SenatorCooper. That you wrapped?
Mrs.Paine. Now I am not certain. I am really thinking now of the package with the venetian blind. I don't recall exactly the package with the rods, whether they were included in this other or whether they warranted a package of their own.
Mr.Liebeler. The witness indicated a width of approximately 7½ inches.
SenatorCooper. I will ask one other question. The ends of the rod which are at right angles to the long surface, how long? What is their approximate size?
Mrs.Paine. Two and a half inches to three inches.
SenatorCooper. What?
Mrs.Paine. Two and a half to three inches.
SenatorCooper. All right, go ahead.
Mr.Jenner. Anyone entering your home from the outside walking up your driveway and looking in the windows, would they see anybody sitting on the sofa you have described?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. Do you sit on the sofa to look at your television set?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Would you take the ground floor plan that is before you andindicate——
Mrs.Paine. Do you want me to draw in the sofa and the television set?
Mr.Jenner. No; I just want you to put an "X" as to where the sofa is, and put a double "X" as to where the television set is. Now the opening that appears to the left of the double "X," is that a window or a door?
Mrs.Paine. That is the front door.
Mr.Jenner. And is there any window in that wall, in the living room wall.
Mrs.Paine. Practically the rest of the wall is window.
Mr.Jenner. And on this drawing it appears as a solid wall?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. The fact is that is a picture window?
Mrs.Paine. That is right. It is just your printing filled in. It is exactly like this. There it is.
Mr.Jenner. Turning to Commission Exhibit 431, the picture window is shown there, is it not?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Now it would be possible, would it not, if someone walked along the sidewalk and was intent on peering in to see if anyone is there, to see somebody sitting at the sofa looking at the television set?
Mrs.Paine. Oh, yes.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr.McCloy. I am very anxious to hear your story before we leave.
SenatorCooper. I can stay here while the details are filled in.
Mr.Jenner. The police arrived and what occurred.
Mrs.Paine. I went to the door. They announced themselves as from both the sheriff's office and the Dallas Police Office, showed me at least one package or two. I was very surprised.
Mr.Jenner. Did you say anything?
Mrs.Paine. I said nothing. I think I just dropped my jaw. And the man in front said by way of explanation "We have Lee Oswald in custody. He is charged with shooting an officer." This is the first I had any idea that Leemight be in trouble with the police or in any way involved in the day's events. I asked them to come in. They said they wanted to search the house. I asked if they had a warrant. They said they didn't. They said they could get the sheriff out here right away with one if I insisted. And I said no, that was all right, they could be my guests.
They then did search the house. I directed them to the fact that most of the Oswald's things were in storage in my garage and showed where the garage was, and to the room where Marina and the baby had stayed where they would find the other things which belonged to the Oswalds. Marina and I went with two or three of these police officers to the garage.
Mr.Jenner. How many police officers were there?
Mrs.Paine. There were six altogether, and they were busy in various parts of the house. The officer asked me in the garage did Lee Oswald have any weapons or guns. I said no, and translated the question to Marina, and she said yes; that she had seen a portion of it—had looked into—she indicated the blanket roll on the floor.
Mr.Jenner. Was the blanket roll on the floor at that time?
Mrs.Paine. She indicated the blanket roll on the floor very close to where I was standing. As she told me about it I stepped onto the blanket roll.
Mr.Jenner. This might be helpful. You had shaped that up yesterday and I will just put it on the floor.
Mrs.Paine. And she indicated to me that she had peered into this roll and saw a portion of what she took to be a gun she knew her husband to have, a rifle. And I then translated this to the officers that she knew that her husband had a gun that he had stored in here.
Mr.Jenner. Were you standing on the blanket when youadvised——
Mrs.Paine. When I translated. I then stepped off of it and the officer picked it up in the middle and it bent so.
Mr.Jenner. It hung limp just as it now hangs limp in your hand?
Mrs.Paine. And at this moment I felt this man was in very deep trouble and may havedone——
Mr.McCloy. Were the strings still on it?
Mrs.Paine. The strings were still on it. It looked exactly as it had at previous times I had seen it. It was at this point I say I made the connection with the assassination, thinking that possibly, knowing already that the shot had been made from the School Book Depository, and that this was a rifle that was missing, I wondered if he would not also be charged before the day was out with the assassination.
Mr.Jenner. Did you say anything?
Mrs.Paine. No; I didn't say that.
Mr.Jenner. When the officer picked up the blanket package, did you hear any crinkling as though there was paper inside?
Mrs.Paine. No crinkling.
Mr.Jenner. None whatsoever. When you stepped on the package, did you have a feeling through your feet that there was something inside the package in the way of paper.
Mrs.Paine. Not anything in the way of paper.
Mr.Jenner. Or wrapping.
Mrs.Paine. Or anything that crinkled; no. I did think it was hard but that was my cement floor.
Mr.Jenner. But definitely you had no sensation of any paper inside?
Mrs.Paine. No such sensation.
Mr.Jenner. Of the nature or character of the wrapping paper you identified yesterday.
Mrs.Paine. No; and when he picked it up I would think such paper would rattle, but there was no such sound. Marina said nothing at this time. She was very white, and of course Ijudged——
Mr.Jenner. Did she blanch?
Mrs.Paine. She is not a person to immediately show her feelings necessarily. She was white. I wouldn't say that it was a sudden thing. I can't be certain that it was sudden at that point.
RepresentativeFord. How close was she standing to it.
Mrs.Paine. From here to there, about 6 feet.
Mr.Jenner. Proceed.
Mrs.Paine. The officers then said they would like me and Marina to go down to the police station, and I said well, I would seek to try to get a baby-sitter to come to stay with the children so that we might accompany them. About this time, we then left the garage as I recall, because then Michael Paine arrived at the front door. I was in the living room when he came. And I said "Did you know to come" and he said that he had heard Oswald's name mentioned on the radio, and had come over directly, for which I may say I was very glad.
Mr.Jenner. How far away from your home—where did he live?
Mrs.Paine. It would take about a half hour drive—he was working—from where he was working to come, 20 minutes perhaps.
Mr.Jenner. Do you have the address at the tip of your tongue?
Mrs.Paine. Where he works; no. I don't know the address. I know how to get to it.
Mr.Jenner. Do you know where he lived?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. What was the address?
Mrs.Paine. He lived at the Villa Fontaine Apartments, apartment 217, 2377 Dalworth.
Mr.Jenner. D-A-L-W-O-R-T-H?
Mrs.Paine. D-A-L-W-O-R-T-H, in Grand Prairie, Tex.
Mr.Jenner. Where is Grand Prairie, Tex.
Mrs.Paine. Grand Prairie is suburban to Dallas, between Dallas and Fort Worth, nearer to Dallas, and it was a location very near to where he worked.
Mr.Jenner. What distance in miles from your home?
Mrs.Paine. You measure distance in minutes in Texas; driving time. I don't know; 20 minutes to where he lived.
Mr.Jenner. All right, proceed.
Mrs.Paine. The police officers then asked if Michael would also accompany us to the police station and he said he would. I changed clothes to a suit from slacks, and went to the house of my babysitter. She has no telephone. I need to walk to her.
Mr.Jenner. Where was Marina in the meantime?
Mrs.Paine. Marina remained in the house with the children. Lynn by this time had awakened as I recall. Christopher was still sleeping and I think June was also. And I said I would walk over to my neighbors to ask if—there was something that intervened I just remembered. I first went and asked my immediate neighbor, Mrs. Roberts, if she could keep the children for a short time in the afternoon, but she was just on her way to go somewhere. She couldn't. So then I went to the home of the person I normally have for a baby-sitter. It was now after school or this babysitter would not have been there, which brings us to 3:30 perhaps. And I asked the mother if the young girl, teenage girl, could come and stay at the house. I was accompanied to the house by one of the officers. As we left the house I said "Oh, you don't have to go with me." Oh, he said, he'd be glad to. And then it occurred to me he had been assigned to go with me, and I said "come along." It was the first I have ever experienced being in the company of people who suspected me of anything, and of course that is their business.
We did arrange then for the girls to come back, one or two, I forget whether it was two of the daughters or one that came then to my house to stay with the children. As I came back, I noticed the officers carrying a number of things from the house, and I looked into the back of one of the cars. It was across the street from my house, and saw he had three cases of 78 records of mine, and I said, "You don't need those and I want to use them on Thanksgiving weekend. I have promised to lead a folk dance conference on the weekend. I will need those records which are all folk dance records and I doubt that you might get them back at that time."
And I said, "that is a 16 mm projector. You don't want that. It is mine."
And he took me by the arm and he said, "We'd better get down to the station. We have wasted too much time as it is." And I said, "I want a list of what you are taking, please." Or perhaps that was before. As much answeras I ever got was "We'd better get to the station." Then I evidently had made them nervous because when we got back from this car to the house, Marina wanted to change from slacks as I had already done to a dress. They would not permit her to do that. I said "She has a right to, she is a woman, to dress as she wishes before going down." And I directed her to the bathroom to change. The officer opened the bathroom door and said no, she had no time to change. I was still making arrangements with the babysitters, arranging for our leaving the children there, and one of the officers made a statement to the effect of "we'd better get this straight in a hurry Mrs. Paine or we'll just take the children down and leave them with juvenile while we talk to you."
And I said "Lynn, you may come too" in reply to this. I don't like being threatened. And then Christopher was still sleeping so I left him in the house and Lynn, my daughter, and Marina took her daughter and her baby with her to the police station, so we were quite a group going into town in the car. Michael was in one car, Marina and I and all the children were in another with three police officers as I recall. One of them spoke some Czech, tried to understand what was being said. The one in the front seat turned to me and said "Are you a Communist," and I said, "No, I am not, and I don't even feel the need of a Fifth Amendment." And he was satisfied with that. We went on then to the police station, and waited until such time as they could interview us. They interviewed Michael at one point separately.
Mr.Jenner. Separately?
Mrs.Paine. And they interviewed Marina while I was present.
Mr.Jenner. Did you interpret for her?
Mrs.Paine. They had an interpreter there, a Mr. Ilya Mamantov whom I was very glad to see. He is the son-in-law of a woman who has tutored me in Dallas, so I had met him before. I was very glad to have someone whose skill in Russian was greater than mine, and Marina had said even in the car going down to the station, "your Russian has suddenly become no good at all." She had asked me again in the car, "isn't it true that the penalty for shooting someone in Texas is the electric chair" and I said "yes, that is true."
Then at the policestation——
RepresentativeFord. May I ask this. Was there any interrogation other than what you have mentioned by police officers in the car?
Mrs.Paine. No; none that I recall.
RepresentativeFord. You and Marina talked back and forth freely or to a limited degree?
Mrs.Paine. We talked back and forth freely and then she wanted me to translate to the officer, to the one who understood some Czech, to help him understand. Then in the room where we were asked questions, what I particularly recall was they wanted Marina to say what she had said in the garage to the effect that she had seen a rifle in that wrapped blanket, and she made the statement again and it was made up into an affidavit for her to sign with Mr. Mamantov making very clear the translation of each sentence, each word, and I recall her statement was to the effect that she had looked in and seen a portion of the gun, of something which she took to be the gun she knew her husband had; that she had not opened the package, but had just looked into it.
They then broughtin——
Mr.Jenner. Mrs. Paine, a slight interruption.
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Was the occasion when Mrs. Oswald, Marina, made the remark of having seen a weapon inside the blanket, was that the first notice that you had of any kind or character that there was a weapon in your garage?
Mrs.Paine. That is absolutely the first. Indeed it was contrary to my expectation as I said. When the officer asked me I answered his question before I even translated it, answered it in the negative, and then translated it and found that indeed there had been a gun there.
Mr.Jenner. All right, go ahead.
Mrs.Paine. They then showed a gun, a rifle to Marina, and asked her if she could identify the gun as being her husband's.
She said her husband had a dark gun, dark in color, that she wasn't absolutely certain that this was the gun. She couldn't definitely recall the sight on the top of it.
Mr.Jenner. The telescope sight?
Mrs.Paine. Yes. Then I also was asked to make an affidavit which I signed, to the effect that I had heard her say in the garage that she had looked into this package and seen what she took to be a rifle she knew her husband had. It was after they had finished with this session that I went back in the same room where Michael was, and Mrs. Oswald, senior, came in, Mrs. Marguerite Oswald.
Mr.Jenner. Had you met her at anytime up to that moment?
Mrs.Paine. No. I had never met her before.
Mr.Jenner. Had you ever talked with her at anytime up to that moment?
Mrs.Paine. I had never talked with her.
Mr.Jenner. Were you advised in advance of anything that had been said that she was to come?
Mrs.Paine. No. She said she had heard on her car radio, on her way to work in the afternoon.
Mr.Jenner. What time was this about?
Mrs.Paine. She heard it?
Mr.Jenner. No; that she came?
Mrs.Paine. It was, it was certainly supper time. We had eaten no lunch.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mrs.Paine. And she said she heard on her car radio that Lee Oswald had been in custody in Dallas and had come over. Previously during October and November Marina had told me she regretted that Lee didn't wish to keep up contact with his mother because she thought it was only proper to tell the mother of the coming grandchild, and then she wanted to announce the birth when the baby had come but she said Lee didn't try to keep her address, and Marina didn't know how to contact her or didn't want to do so around her husband certainly. There was a warm greeting in the police station.
Mr.Jenner. Between whom?
Mrs.Paine. Between Marguerite Oswald and Marina Oswald and I recall both wept and Mrs. Marguerite Oswald exclaimed over the new baby, and then held the baby. I then also met Robert Oswald.
Mr.Jenner. When did he come with relation to when Marguerite Oswald entered?
Mrs.Paine. It seemed to me later.
Mr.Jenner. Had you met Robert Oswald at anytime up to that moment?
Mrs.Paine. No; I had not.
Mr.Jenner. Was there any discussion that had taken place during the course of the day up to that moment indicating to you that Robert Oswald might or would arrive on the scene?
Mrs.Paine. No; nothing that day about Robert at all.
Mr.Jenner. When he entered was there an indication to you at all that none of the people, in addition to yourself, was aware that he was about to—that they had any advance advice that he was going to be present?
Mrs.Paine. There was no indication of any advance advice to any of the people.
Mr.Jenner. Was there any indication to the contrary?
Mrs.Paine. I don't think anyone was really surprised that he had come.
Mr.Jenner. There was this lack of prior notice?
Mrs.Paine. Lack of prior notice. We then talked about where to go.
Mr.Jenner. Excuse me, does the "we" include your husband all the time?
Mrs.Paine. The "we" then was a group at this point of my husband, Marguerite Oswald, Marina Oswald, Robert Oswald, and myself, three children.
Mr.Jenner. Did your husband know Robert Oswald prior to this time?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. Were they introduced to each other on this occasion?
Mrs.Paine. They were in the same room and they might have been. It was agreed that Robert was to stay in a hotel. Marguerite Oswald asked if she could come out and stay with Marina at my home, and it was agreed.
Mr.Jenner. Was it agreed that Marina would stay at your house that night?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; certainly all her baby things were there. So, we went back there. We were taken back by police officers.
Mr.Jenner. Everybody assumed she would return back to your home?
Mrs.Paine. Oh, yes.
Mr.Jenner. Was there any discussion that would indicate any reluctance on the part of anybody that she return to your home?
Mrs.Paine. None.
Mr.Jenner. None whatsoever by anybody?
Mrs.Paine. That is correct, none whatsoever by anybody.
The police officers brought us back to my home. It was by this time dark, and I think it was about 9 o'clock in the evening. I asked Michael to go out and buy hamburgers at a drive-in so we wouldn't have to cook, and we ate these as best we could, and began to prepare to retire. We talked. I have a few specific recollections of that period that I will put in here.
Just close to the time of retiring Marina told me that just the night before Lee had said to her he hoped they could get an apartment together again soon. As she said this, I felt she was hurt and confused, wondering how he could have said such a thing which indicated wanting to be together with her when he must have already been planning something that would inevitably cause separation. I asked her did she think that Lee had killed the President and she said, "I don't know." And I felt that this was not something to talk about really anyway. But my curiosity overcame my politeness.
Now, back a little bit to the time in the living room, Mrs. Oswald and Michael and Marina and I were all there, and Mrs. Oswald, I recall, said, I mean of course Mrs. MargueriteOswald——
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Paine. That if they were prominent people there would be three of the lawyers down in the city jail now trying to defend her son, and coming to his aid.
She felt that since they were just small people that there wouldn't—they wouldn't get the proper attention or care, and I tried to say this was not a small case. That most careful attention would be given it, but she didn't feel that way.
Mr.Jenner. You made no impression on her?
Mrs.Paine. I made no impression on her.
Mr.Jenner. I takeit——
Mrs.Paine. She made an impression on me.
Mr.Jenner. I think we would prefer if you would call her Marguerite. It would avoid confusion.
Mrs.Paine. All right. Somewhere in that evening before we retired, and after we had eaten, the doorbell rang and two men from Life Magazine appeared. Iwas——
Mr.Jenner. Had you had any advance notice?
Mrs.Paine. We had had no advance notice.
Mr.Jenner. Nobody did?
Mrs.Paine. Nobody did.
Mr.Jenner. You in particular and none of the others in the room?
Mrs.Paine. None of the others.
Mr.Jenner. That was your impression?
Mrs.Paine. I would be quite certain that none of the others andmyself——
Mr.Jenner. At least that was your impression at the moment?
Mrs.Paine. That they had no prior information that these people might come. I will say I was not surprised that anyone of the press found his way to our door at that point. If anything, I was surprised there weren't more. Life Magazine was the only company or group to appear that evening. I permitted them to come in, and I felt that Mrs. Marguerite Oswald was interested in the possibility of their buying the story or paying for what information she and Marina might give them.
Mr.Jenner. Had that occurred to you?
Mrs.Paine. Had that occurred to me? No. But then, too, I wasn't thinking about pay for lawyers but she made that connection verbally in my presence.
Mr.Jenner. What connection?
Mrs.Paine. Between the need for money.
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Paine. The availability of Life Magazine and the need to pay for a lawyer.
Mr.Jenner. And she was the one who raised that subject?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; she raised it.
Mr.Jenner. For commercialization of the story?
Mrs.Paine. I recall now she raised it definitely enough that Mr. Tommy Thompson of Life called, I believe still that evening, to see if he could offer anything or what he might be empowered to offer.
Mr.Jenner. That was all instigated by her?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; very much so. I noticed that the other man, whose name I forget, had a camera and I was amazed, and I also saw he took a picture and I was amazed, he tried with a dim light in the room.
Mr.Jenner. When you say he took a picture, you don't mean he took a picture from your living room?
Mrs.Paine. He took a picture in my living room. He photographed. I saw him wind his roll.
Mr.Jenner. Thank you.
Mrs.Paine. I made the mistake I now think of turning on another light simply as an act of hostess, it was dim in the living room but I hadn't realized until later that I was making it possible for him to take a picture.
I didn't know what was best for me to do as hostess. It seemed to me that Mrs. Oswald, Sr., Mrs. Marguerite Oswald, was both interested in encouraging the Life Magazine representatives and still didn't really want her picture taken, and I had no personal objection to their being there. But I considered the Oswalds my guests and I didn't want to have the Life Magazine people there if they didn't want them. But they left fairly promptly, saying that they would come back in the morning.
Mr.Jenner. Did they say anything about your talking or not talking to any other news media representatives until they had talked with you?
Mrs.Paine. Not to me.
Mr.Jenner. Nothing of that implied?
Mrs.Paine. No. It was after this that the conversation I have already related with Marina took place, and we finished our preparations for bed. She said to me she didn't think she would sleep fairly soon and asked if she could borrow my hair dryer, she would stay up and take a shower, which she often said renewed her spirits, and I then went to bed, having given her my hair dryer. We woke perhaps something after 7 the next morning or closer to 8.
Mr.Jenner. When you say "we", who do you mean?
Mrs.Paine. The household. I think we had not yet—we pretty much woke all at once.
Mr.Jenner. Did your husband remain at your home?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; he remained at my home that night, the first time he had been there in a great long time. We were still eating breakfast or had just begun when the two Life people arrived again, this time with an interpreter, a woman doctor whose name I don't remember, and Marguerite Oswald and Marina Oswald, with her two little girls went with these two Life Magazine people to downtown Dallas for the purpose of seeing Lee, and Marguerite Oswald wanted to see that he got legal counsel immediately.
They were acting, the Life people were acting in this case as shovers, I feel, and I also thought Marguerite Oswald was hoping that something could be arranged between them, that would be financially helpful.
Mr.Jenner. Did she say anything that further stimulated your thoughts and reaction in that direction?
Mrs.Paine. Yes. I don't recall specifically but I have the clear impressionthat——
Mr.Jenner. From her conversation with the Life representatives?
Mrs.Paine. From her conversation. Yes. They left quite soon, I remember wishing Marina had taken more time to have more breakfast since it was going to be a trying day, and that is the last I saw her until March 9, in the evening, very recently.
Mr.Jenner. March 9, 1964?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Just a week or so ago?
Mrs.Paine. That is right. She left, of course, expecting to come back. She took only the immediate needs of the baby's diapers and bottle, and I fully expected her to come back later that same day. I don't really recall. I think there must have been some newsmen out then that morning, later that morning.
Mr.Jenner. To see you, at your home?
Mrs.Paine. At my home. I would be certain of that. The Houston Post—well, yes. And Michael was there also, at least in the morning as I recall, and talked with these people.
I believe the local paper, Irving News, was there. Then Michael, as I recall, went to do something related to his work or had to do some shopping.
Mr.Jenner. He left your home?
Mrs.Paine. Anyway, in the afternoon I was the only one there and I felt I had better get some grocery shopping done so as to be prepared for a long stay home just answering the doorbell and telling what I could to the people who wanted to know. I was just preparing to go to the grocery store when several officers arrived again from the Dallas Police Office and asked if they could search.
This time I was in the yard, the front yard on the grass, and asked if they could search and held up their warrant and I said, yes, they could search. They said they were looking for something specific and I said, "I want to go to the grocery store, I'll just go and you go ahead and do your searching."
I then went to the grocery store and when I came back they had finished and left, locking my door which necessitated my getting out my key, I don't normally lock my door when I go shopping.
RepresentativeFord. Did you take your children shopping?
Mrs.Paine. Always. Then about 3:30 or 4 I got a telephone call.
Mr.Jenner. The phone rang?
Mrs.Paine. The phone rang; I answered it.
Mr.Jenner. Did you recognize the voice?
Mrs.Paine. I recognized the voice but I don't recall what he said?
Mr.Jenner. What did the voice say?
Mrs.Paine. The voice said: "This is Lee."
Mr.Jenner. Give your best recollection of everything you said and if you can, please, everything he said, and exactly what you said.
Mrs.Paine. I said, "Well, Hi." And he said he wanted to ask me to call Mr. John Abt in New York for him after 6 p.m. He gave me a telephone number of an office in New York and a residence in New York.
Mr.Jenner. Two telephone numbers he gave you?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. One office and one residence of Mr. John Abt. Did he say who Mr. John Abt was?
Mrs.Paine. He said he was an attorney he wanted to have.
Mr.Jenner. Represent him?
Mrs.Paine. To represent him. He thanked me for my concern.
Mr.Jenner. Did he tell you or ask you what you were to do or say to Mr. Abt if you reached him?
Mrs.Paine. I carried the clear impression I was to ask him if he would serve as attorney for Lee Oswald.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Have you given the substance of the conversation in as much detail, of the entire conversation, as you now can recall?
Mrs.Paine. There is a little more thatis——
SenatorCooper. Why don't you just go ahead and tell it as you remember it, everything that he said and you said?
Mrs.Paine. I can't give the specific words to this part but I carry a clear impression, too, that he sounded to me almost as if nothing out of the ordinary had happened.
I would make this telephone call for him, would help him, as I had in other ways previously. He was, he expressed gratitude to me. I felt, but did notexpress, considerable irritation at his seeming to be so apart from the situation, so presuming of his own innocence, if you will, but I did say I would make the call for him.
Then he called back almost immediately. I gather that he had made the call to me on the permission to make a different call and then he got specific permission from the police to make a call to me and the call was identical.
Mr.Jenner. This is speculation?
Mrs.Paine. This is speculation but the content of the second call was almost identical.
Mr.Jenner. The phone rang?
Mrs.Paine. He asked me to contact John Abt.
Mr.Jenner. He identified himself and he asked you to make the call?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. What did he say?
Mrs.Paine. He wanted me to call this lawyer.
Mr.Jenner. Did you express any surprise for him to call back almost immediately giving you the same message that he had given previously?
Mrs.Paine. I think somebody must have said, that the officers had said he could call, make this call.
Mr.Jenner. Did you say anything about the fact that he had already just called you about the same subject matter?
Mrs.Paine. He may have added.
Mr.Jenner. Did you, please?
Mrs.Paine. No. I was quite stunned that he called at all or that he thought he could ask anything of me, appalled, really.
Mr.McCloy. Did he say he was innocent, or did he just have this conversation with respect to the retention of a counsel?
Mrs.Paine. That is all.
Mr.Jenner. At no time during either of those conversations did he deny that he was in any way involved in this situation?
Mrs.Paine. He made no reference to why he was at the police station or why he needed a lawyer.
Mr.Jenner. He just assumed that you knew he was at the police station, did he?
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. That was your impression?
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. He didn't say where he was?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. He just started out saying what you now say he said?
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. But in no respect did he say to you that he was entirely innocent of any charges that had been made against him?
Mrs.Paine. He did not say that.
Mr.Jenner. Did he mention the subject at all of the assassination of the President or the slaying of Officer Tippit?
Mrs.Paine. No; he did not.
Mr.Jenner. What you have given is your best recollection of the entire conversation?
Mrs.Paine. That is correct.
RepresentativeFord. This was Saturday afternoon, November 23?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
RepresentativeFord. About what time?
Mrs.Paine. Four, perhaps in the afternoon.
RepresentativeFord. Had you seen him the day before?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.McCloy. Who was in the house with you when that call came in?
Mrs.Paine. Just my children.
Mr.McCloy. Just your children.
RepresentativeFord. While you were shopping and after the officers had come with a warrant, they went in the house, no one was in the house?
Mrs.Paine. For a portion of the time they were looking, no one was in the house.
RepresentativeFord. They were there alone?
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
Mr.McCloy. Did they indicate—were they still there when you got back?
Mrs.Paine. No; they were not. Remember the door was locked.
Mr.McCloy. Yes; the door was locked, that is what I gather. Do you know what they took on this occasion, or did they tell you what they were coming for?
Mrs.Paine. No; I do not. Before I left they were leafing through books to see if anything fell out but that is all I saw.
Mr.McCloy. All right.
Mrs.Paine. In this interim then, I suppose I talked to some more news people but I want to get to the next important point which was that Lee called again.
Mr.Jenner. A third time?
Mrs.Paine. I really call the first two one, but it was twice dialed.
Mr.Jenner. Fix the time, please.
Mrs.Paine. It was around 9:30 in the evening.
Mr.Jenner. Who was home? Was your husband there on that occasion?
Mrs.Paine. I don't recall.
Mr.Jenner. Was anyone else other than your children and yourself in your home at the time of the receipt of the call in the evening?
Mrs.Paine. It could only have been Michael. I would remember someone else.
Mr.Jenner. But you have no definite recollection that even he was present?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. All right. The phone rang, you answered it.
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did you recognize the voice?
Mrs.Paine. I recognized the voice.
Mr.Jenner. Whose was it?
Mrs.Paine. It was Lee Oswald's.
Mr.Jenner. What did he say and what did you say?
Mrs.Paine. He said, "Marina, please," in Russian.
Mr.Jenner. Please, Mrs. Paine, did he speak to you in English in the conversations in the afternoon or in Russian?
Mrs.Paine. He spoke in English the entire conversation.
Mr.Jenner. The two in the afternoon?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Now, however, he resorted to Russian, did he?
Mrs.Paine. Yes. He planned to speak to Marina.
Mr.Jenner. I beg your pardon?
Mrs.Paine. He planned to speak to Marina, and this opening phrase was one he normally used calling as he had many previous times to speak to her.
Mr.Jenner. He was under the assumption, you gathered, that Marina was in your home?
Mrs.Paine. He certainly was.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mrs.Paine. And I would be fairly certain that I answered him in English. I said she was not there, that I had a notion about where she might be, but I wasn't at all certain. That I would try to find out. He said, he wanted me to—he said he thought she should be at my house. He felt irritated at not having been able to reach her. And he wanted meto——
Mr.Jenner. Did he sound irritated?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; he sounded just a slight edge to his voice. And he wanted me to deliver a message to her that he thought she should be at my house.
Mr.Jenner. And he so instructed you?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. That is what he said?
Mrs.Paine. Yes. That was so far as I remember, the entire conversation.
Mr.Jenner. What response did you give to his direction?
Mrs.Paine. I said I would try to reach her.
Mr.Jenner. Hisdirection——
Mrs.Paine. And tell her his message.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mrs. Paine, in the meantime, had you sought to reach John Abt?
Mrs.Paine. I had, after 6 o'clock, thank you. I had dialed both numbers and neither answered.
Mr.Jenner. Neither answered. Was there any conversation between you and Lee Oswald in the evening conversation to which you reported to him your inability to reach Mr. Abt?
Mrs.Paine. I do not specifically recall.
Mr.Jenner. Or the subject of Mr. Abt at all?
Mrs.Paine. I don't want to get into rationalization. I can judge that something was said but I do not recall it specifically.
Mr.Jenner. Now, have you given the full extent of that conversation?
Mrs.Paine. To the best of my recollection.
Mr.Jenner. At anytime during that conversation with Lee Harvey Oswald did he assert or intimate in any form or fashion his innocence of any charges against him?
Mrs.Paine. No; he did not.
Mr.Jenner. Was the assassination mentioned at all?
Mrs.Paine. No; it was not.
Mr.Jenner. Was the shooting or murder of Officer Tippit mentioned?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. You have given everything that was said in that conversation as best you are able to recall it at the moment?
Mrs.Paine. That is right. I then tried the only thing I knew to do, to try to reach Marina. I had heard one of the FBI agents try to find her when he was at my home, had dialed the hotel where the Life people were staying, and asked to be put in contact with Marina and was told, I judge, because he repeated it and wrote it down. Executive Inn. Here I am turning detective in this small way.
Mr.Jenner. You also mentioned now for the first time there were FBI agents in your home?
Mrs.Paine. That day.
Mr.Jenner. During the course of the day?
Mrs.Paine. Yes. I thendialed——
Mr.Jenner. You shook your head, did you shake your head in the affirmative?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; there were FBI agents in my home during the day. One I recalled made this telephone call. I was waiting to hear from Marina to see if she wanted to talk with me. I had no desire to press her or to attempt to reach her unless she wanted to reach me, but then with this message, I went ahead and dialed the Executive Inn and asked for Tommy Thompson, and Marguerite Oswald answered, and I said I would like to talk to Marina, and she said, "Well, Marina is in the bathroom," and I said to Marguerite that Lee had called me, that he wanted me to deliver a message to Marina, that he wished for her to be at my home, and Marguerite Oswald said, "Well, he is in prison, he don't know the things we are up against, the things we have to face. What he wants doesn't really matter," which surprised me. And again I asked to speak to Marina and waited until I did speak to her and delivered the same message in Russian to her but there was nofurther——
Mr.Jenner. What response did Marina make to the message that you conveyed to her?
Mrs.Paine. She said she was very tired and wanted to get to bed, as I recall, and thought it was certainly best to stay there that night.