Mr.Ball. Who did you go out with?
Mr.Norman. I know James Jarman and I went out. I can't remember.
RepresentativeFord. May I ask did we get into the testimony enough of his background and biography?
Mr.Ball. Clear from where he was born, through high school and all his jobs through high school.
He is 26 years old, married, and never been in any trouble in his life. I think that is all.
Mr.McCloy. Thank you, Mr. Norman.
TheChairman. Thank you very much for coming.
Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr.Belin. Chief Justice Warren, this is Mr. Jarman.
TheChairman. How do you do. Glad to see you.
Mr.Belin. CongressmanFord——
Mr.McCloy. Would you hold up your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give in this case will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Jarman. I do.
Mr.Ball. The statement has been read to you as to the purpose of your examination before the Commission?
Mr.Jarman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Hasn't it, Mr. Jarman?
Mr.Jarman. Yes.
Mr.Ball. State your name, please?
Mr.Jarman. James Jarman, Junior.
Mr.Ball. What do they call you, Junior?
Mr.Jarman. Junior.
Mr.Ball. Where do you live?
Mr.Jarman. 4930 Echo.
Mr.Ball. Are you married?
Mr.Jarman. Yes.
Mr.Ball. What is your age?
Mr.Jarman. 34.
Mr.Ball. Where were you born?
Mr.Jarman. Dallas, Tex.
Mr.Ball. Have you lived there all your life?
Mr.Jarman. Yes; I have.
Mr.Ball. You still live there?
Mr.Jarman. Yes.
Mr.Ball. And did you go to school in Dallas?
Mr.Jarman. Yes; I did.
Mr.Ball. How far did you go through school?
Mr.Jarman. To the 10th grade and went to California in 1947 and stayed there for about a year.
Mr.Ball. What did you do in California?
Mr.Jarman. I was living with my aunt at the time.
Mr.Ball. Did you work?
Mr.Jarman. No; I was still in school.
Mr.Ball. What school did you go to?
Mr.Jarman. Alameda High.
Mr.Ball. Then where did you go after you came back, after you left California?
Mr.Jarman. I came back to Dallas.
Mr.Ball. Did you go to school any more?
Mr.Jarman. No, I went into service.
Mr.Ball. What year did you go in the service?
Mr.Jarman. 1948.
Mr.Ball. How long were you in the service?
Mr.Jarman. I was in the service up until 1952.
Mr.Ball. What service?
Mr.Jarman. U.S. Army.
Mr.Ball. And did you enlist in 1948?
Mr.Jarman. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Enlisted?
Mr.Jarman. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Did 4 years in the Army?
Mr.Jarman. Yes; I did.
Mr.Ball. Did you receive an honorable discharge from the Army?
Mr.Jarman. Yes.
Mr.Ball. And then what did you do?
Mr.Jarman. I came out and stayed out for about until July of 1953.
Mr.Ball. Then what?
Mr.Jarman. And reenlisted in the service again.
Mr.Ball. How long did you stay in the Army this time?
Mr.Jarman. Until 1956.
Mr.Ball. And were you discharged then?
Mr.Jarman. Yes, I was.
Mr.Ball. Did you get an honorable discharge?
Mr.Jarman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And what did you do after that?
Mr.Jarman. Well, I started working at the Texas School Book Depository for about 2 months after.
Mr.Ball. After you got out of the Army?
Mr.Jarman. Yes.
Mr.Ball. You are still there; are you?
Mr.Jarman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Was there any period of time since 1956 to 1964 that you didn't work there?
Mr.Jarman. Yes.
Mr.Ball. How many times?
Mr.Jarman. I started in 1956. I worked from August up until November, and I was laid off until December the same year and I started back again and I worked up until 1958 I believe, 1958 or 1959, and I quit there and went to Parkland Hospital. From there I went back to the Depository. And I got laid off again and I went to Bakers Hotel, and I think it was in 1961 I went back to the Depository and I have been there ever since.
Mr.Ball. What was your job at the Depository in November of 1963, last fall?
Mr.Jarman. Checker.
Mr.Ball. What does a checker do?
Mr.Jarman. He checks various orders, books and things that go out to different schools.
Mr.Ball. Do the order fillers bring the books down to where you haveyour——
Mr.Jarman. Right.
Mr.Ball. On a table. You have a table?
Mr.Jarman. I have a table with a scale and I weigh these books up and put the upholstery on them and put them on a little conveyor and the wrappers wrap them or pack them, whichever one it may be.
Mr.Ball. Did you know Lee Oswald?
Mr.Jarman. Only as a coworker.
Mr.Ball. Did you ever talk to him while he was working there?
Mr.Jarman. I have had him to correct orders at various times. That is about all.
Mr.Ball. Did you ever talk to him about politics?
Mr.Jarman. No.
Mr.Ball. Religion?
Mr.Jarman. No.
Mr.Ball. Anything at all?
Mr.Jarman. Not until November the 22d.
Mr.Ball. Not until that day?
Mr.Jarman. Not until that day.
Mr.Ball. Did Oswald have any friends there?
Mr.Jarman. Well, not that I know of.
Mr.Ball. Did he have any close friend that he would eat lunch with every day?
Mr.Jarman. No, sir; not that I know of.
Mr.Ball. Did you notice whether Oswald brought his lunch most of the time or bought his lunch most of the time?
Mr.Jarman. Most of the time he brought his lunch.
Mr.Ball. Most of the time he brought his lunch?
Mr.Jarman. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Did you ever see him buy his lunch?
Mr.Jarman. Well, occasionally. I don't think so.
Mr.Ball. I don't understand.
Mr.Jarman. I mean sometimes he would go out of the building. One time I know in particular that he went out, but he didn't buy any lunch.
Mr.Ball. There is a catering service that comes by the building every morning at 10 o'clock, isn't there?
Mr.Jarman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did you ever see him buy his lunch from this catering service?
Mr.Jarman. I think once or twice he did.
Mr.Ball. Did you ever see him when he was eating his lunch?
Mr.Jarman. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Where?
Mr.Jarman. Sometimes in the, as we called it, domino room, and again over by the coffee table where they make coffee.
Mr.Ball. Is that the first floor?
Mr.Jarman. That is the first floor.
Mr.Ball. Now on November 22, what time did you get to work?
Mr.Jarman. About 5 minutes after 8.
Mr.Ball. Was Oswald there when you got there?
Mr.Jarman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Where did you see him the first time?
Mr.Jarman. Well, he was on the first floor filling orders.
Mr.Ball. Did you bring your lunch that day?
Mr.Jarman. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr.Ball. What did you do about lunch that day?
Mr.Jarman. I got a sandwich off the carrying truck.
Mr.Ball. About what time of day?
Mr.Jarman. It was about 10 or a little after 10, maybe.
Mr.Ball. Where did you put it, keep it until lunch?
Mr.Jarman. In the domino room.
Mr.Ball. Where in the domino room?
Mr.Jarman. Well, they have two little windows, they have two sets of windows in there and I put it in the window.
Mr.Ball. Did you talk to Oswald that morning?
Mr.Jarman. I did.
Mr.Ball. When?
Mr.Jarman. I had him to correct an order. I don't know exactly what time it was.
Mr.Ball. Oh, approximately. Nine, ten?
Mr.Jarman. It was around, it was between eight and nine, I would say.
Mr.Ball. Between 8 and 9?
Mr.Jarman. Between 5 minutes after 8 and 9.
Mr.Ball. You had him correct an order?
Mr.Jarman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did you talk to him again that morning?
Mr.Jarman. Yes, sir. I talked to him again later on that morning.
Mr.Ball. About what time?
Mr.Jarman. It was between 9:30 and 10 o'clock, I believe.
Mr.Ball. Where were you when you talked to him?
Mr.Jarman. In between two rows of bins.
Mr.Ball. On what floor?
Mr.Jarman. On the first floor.
Mr.Ball. And what was said by him and by you?
Mr.Jarman. Well, he was standing up in the window and I went to the window also, and he asked me what were the people gathering around on the corner for, and I told him that the President was supposed to pass that morning, and he asked me did I know which way he was coming, and I told him, yes; he probably come down Main and turn on Houston and then back again on Elm.
Then he said, "Oh, I see," and that was all.
Mr.Ball. Did you talk to him again?
Mr.Jarman. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. What time did you quit for lunch?
Mr.Jarman. It was right about 5 minutes to 12.
Mr.Ball. What did you do when you quit for lunch?
Mr.Jarman. Went in the rest room and washed up.
Mr.Ball. Then what did you do?
Mr.Jarman. Went and got my sandwich and went up in the lounge and got me a soda pop.
Mr.Ball. Where is the lounge?
Mr.Jarman. On the second floor.
Mr.Ball. On the second floor?
Mr.Jarman. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Then where did you go after you got your soda pop?
Mr.Jarman. Came back and went down to the window.
Mr.Ball. What window?
Mr.Jarman. Where Oswald and I was talking.
Mr.Ball. Where?
Mr.Jarman. Between those two rows of bins.
Mr.Ball. Where Oswald and you had been talking?
Mr.Jarman. Yes.
Mr.Ball. What did you do there?
Mr.Jarman. I was eating part of my sandwich there, and then I came back out and as I was walking across the floor I ate the rest of it going toward the domino room.
Mr.Ball. You say you ate the rest of it when?
Mr.Jarman. Walking around on the first floor there.
Mr.Ball. Did you sit down at the window when you ate part of your sandwich?
Mr.Jarman. No; I was standing.
Mr.Ball. And did you have the pop in your hand, too?
Mr.Jarman. Yes; I had a sandwich in one hand and pop in the other.
Mr.Ball. You say you wandered around, you mean on the first floor?
Mr.Jarman. On the first floor.
Mr.Ball. Were you with anybody when you were at the window? Did you talk to anybody?
Mr.Jarman. No; I did not.
Mr.Ball. Were you with anybody when you were walking around finishing your sandwich?
Mr.Jarman. No; I wasn't. I was trying to get through so I could get out on the street.
Mr.Ball. Did you see Lee Oswald?
Mr.Jarman. No; I didn't.
Mr.Ball. After his arrest, he stated to a police officer that he had had lunch with you. Did you have lunch with him?
Mr.Jarman. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr.Ball. When you finished your sandwich and your bottle of pop, what did you do?
Mr.Jarman. I throwed the paper that I had the sandwich in in the box over close to the telephone and I took the pop bottle and put it in the case over by the Dr. Pepper machine.
Mr.Ball. And then what did you do?
Mr.Jarman. Then I went out in front of the building.
Mr.Ball. With who?
Mr.Jarman. Harold Norman, Bonnie Ray, and Danny Arce and myself.
Mr.Ball. You say Bonnie Ray Williams?
Mr.Jarman. Bonnie Ray Williams.
Mr.Ball. Do you remember him going with you?
Mr.Jarman. No; I am sorry. Excuse me, but it was Harold Norman and myself and Daniel Arce.
Mr.Ball. What about Billy Lovelady?
Mr.Jarman. I didn't go out with them. They came out later.
Mr.Ball. Did you see Billy Lovelady out there?
Mr.Jarman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Where was he?
Mr.Jarman. Standing on the stairway as you go out the front door.
Mr.Ball. Where did you stand?
Mr.Jarman. I was standing over to the right in front of the building going toward the west.
Mr.Ball. Were you on the sidewalk or curb?
Mr.Jarman. On the sidewalk.
Mr.Ball. The sidewalk in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr.Jarman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. How long did you stand there?
Mr.Jarman. Well, until about 12:20, between 12:20 and 12:25.
Mr.Ball. Who do you remember was standing near you that worked with you in the Book Depository?
Mr.Jarman. Harold Norman and Charles Givens and Daniel Arce.
Mr.Ball. What about Mr. Truly?
Mr.Jarman. He wasn't standing close to me.
Mr.Ball. Did you see him?
Mr.Jarman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Who was he with?
Mr.Jarman. He was with the Vice President of the company.
Mr.Ball. What is his name?
Mr.Jarman. O. V. Campbell.
Mr.Ball. Where were they standing?
Mr.Jarman. They were standing at the corner of the building in front of the mail boxes.
Mr.Ball. You left there, didn't you, and went some place?
Mr.Jarman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. With whom?
Mr.Jarman. Harold Norman and myself.
Mr.Ball. Where did you go?
Mr.Jarman. We went around to the back of the building up to the fifth floor.
Mr.Ball. You say you went around. You mean you went around the building?
Mr.Jarman. Right.
Mr.Ball. You didn't go through and cross the first floor?
Mr.Jarman. No, sir; there was too many people standing on the stairway there, so we decided to go around.
Mr.Ball. You went in the back door?
Mr.Jarman. Right.
Mr.Ball. That would be the north entrance to the building, wouldn't it?
Mr.Jarman. Right.
Mr.Ball. Did you take an elevator or the stairs?
Mr.Jarman. We took the elevator.
Mr.Ball. Which elevator?
Mr.Jarman. The west side elevator.
Mr.Ball. That is the one you use a punch button on, isn't it?
Mr.Jarman. Right.
Mr.Ball. Where did you go?
Mr.Jarman. To the fifth floor.
Mr.Ball. Why did you go to the fifth floor?
Mr.Jarman. We just decided to go to the fifth floor.
Mr.Ball. Was there any reason why you should go to the fifth floor any more than the fourth or the sixth?
Mr.Jarman. No.
Mr.Ball. Did you know who made the suggestion you go to the fifth floor?
Mr.Jarman. Well, I don't know if it was myself or Hank.
Mr.Ball. When you got there was there anybody on the fifth floor?
Mr.Jarman. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. What did you do when you got to the fifth floor?
Mr.Jarman. We got out the elevator and pulled the gate down. That was in case somebody wanted to use it. Then we went to the front of the building, which is on the south side, and raised the windows.
Mr.Ball. Which windows did you raise?
Mr.Jarman. Well, Harold raised the first window to the east side of the building, and I went to the second rear windows and raised, counting the windows, it would be the fourth one.
Mr.Ball. It would be the fourth window?
Mr.Jarman. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Did somebody join you then?
Mr.Jarman. Yes, sir; a few minutes later.
Mr.Ball. Who joined you?
Mr.Jarman. Bonnie Ray Williams.
Mr.Ball. And where did he stand or sit?
Mr.Jarman. He took the window next to Harold Norman.
Mr.Ball. I show you a picture which is 480, a picture of the Texas School Book Depository Building. Can you show me the window before which you were standing and out of which you were looking?
Mr.Jarman. This window here.
Mr.Ball. It is marked W on this picture. Where was Harold Norman, the window out of which Harold Norman was looking?
Mr.Jarman. He was first right here.
Mr.Ball. That is the one marked with a red arrow?
Mr.Jarman. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Where was Bonnie Ray Williams?
Mr.Jarman. Bonnie Ray Williams was in this one.
Mr.Ball. Next to the window of Norman, is that right?
Mr.Jarman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball.Was——
Mr.Belin. What exhibit is that?
Mr.Ball. That is 480. This is 482. You recognize those two pictures?
Mr.Jarman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Who are they?
Mr.Jarman. Harold Norman and Bonnie Ray Williams.
Mr.Ball. Now the other day you went up to the fifth floor of the Texas State School Book Depository with me and a photographer, and had your picture taken, did you not?
Mr.Jarman. Yes.
Mr.Ball. And what did I ask you to do before the picture was taken?
Mr.Jarman. To try to get in the same position that we were the day the assassination was.
Mr.Ball. And did you do that?
Mr.Jarman. Yes, sir. We tried to the best of our knowledge.
Mr.Ball. I have a picture here I would like to have marked as Commission Exhibit 494.
Mr.McCloy. It is so marked.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 494 for identification.)
Mr.Ball. Is that your picture?
Mr.Jarman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Taken last Friday afternoon, March 20th, is that right?
Mr.Jarman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Now does it or does it not show your position at about the time, as you were watching the President's motorcade go by?
Mr.Jarman. Yes, sir; that is the position I had as it was going by.
Mr.Ball. You are on your knees?
Mr.Jarman. Right, sir.
Mr.Ball. I show this to each member of the Commission. This is a new exhibit. 485, you recognize that picture?
Mr.Jarman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. What does it show?
Mr.Jarman. It shows that I was on my knees as the motorcade was passing.
Mr.Ball. And shows the other two men?
Mr.Jarman. As the motorcade was passing.
Mr.Ball. It shows their position?
Mr.Jarman. At the time.
Mr.Ball. At the time the motorcade was passing?
Mr.Jarman. Right, sir.
Mr.Ball. This has been introduced into evidence. I don't believe you have seen that, Congressman.
RepresentativeFord. This is yourself here?
Mr.Jarman. Yes.
RepresentativeFord. The one closest to an individual looking at the photograph.
Mr.Jarman. Yes.
Mr.Ball. After the motorcade passed, what happened?
Mr.Jarman. After the motorcade turned, going west on Elm, then there was a loud shot, or backfire, as I thought it was then—I thought it was a backfire.
Mr.Ball. You thought it was what?
Mr.Jarman. A backfire or an officer giving a salute to the President. And then at that time I didn't, you know, think too much about it. And then the second shot was fired, and that is when the people started falling on the ground and the motorcade car jumped forward, and then the third shot was fired right behind the second one.
Mr.Ball. Were you still on your knees looking up?
Mr.Jarman. Well, after the third shot was fired, I think I got up and I ran over to Harold Norman and Bonnie Ray Williams, and told them, I said, I told them that it wasn't a backfire or anything, that somebody was shooting at the President.
Mr.Ball. And then did they say anything?
Mr.Jarman. Hank said, Harold Norman, rather, said that he thought the shots had came from above us, and I noticed that Bonnie Ray had a few debris in his head. It was sort of white stuff, or something, and I told him not to brush it out, but he did anyway.
Mr.Ball. He had some white what, like plaster?
Mr.Jarman. Like some come off a brick or plaster or something.
Mr.Ball. Did Norman say anything else that you remember?
Mr.Jarman. He said that he was sure that the shot came from inside the building because he had been used to guns and all that, and he said it didn't sound like it was too far off anyway. And so we ran down to the west side of the building.
Mr.Ball. Did Norman say anything about hearing cartridges or ejection or anything like that, do you remember?
Mr.Jarman. That was after we got down to the west side of the building.
Mr.Ball. After you got down where?
Mr.Jarman. To the west side of the building.
Mr.Ball. Down the west side?
Mr.Jarman. Right.
Mr.Ball. Now you ran down to the west side of the building, did you?
Mr.Jarman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And when you were up there you showed me the window to which you ran, didn't you?
Mr.Jarman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. The picture was taken of you at that place?
Mr.Jarman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. When you ran down there was the window open or closed?
Mr.Jarman. It was closed.
Mr.Ball. And who opened it?
Mr.Jarman. I did.
Mr.Ball. And what did you do after you opened the window?
Mr.Jarman. I leaned out and the officers and various people was running across the tracks, toward the tracks over there where they had the passenger trains, and all, boxcars and things.
Mr.Ball. I show you 488. What does that show?
Mr.Jarman. That shows me leaning out the window and Bonnie Ray and Harold Norman was over to the side of me.
Mr.Ball. What window?
Mr.Jarman. The window on the west side of the building.
Mr.Ball. Is that the one to which you ran after you heard the shots?
Mr.Jarman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And you looked out that window?
Mr.Jarman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. How did you happen to run to that window?
Mr.Jarman. Well, I wanted to see what was going on mostly, because that was after the motorcade car had took off, and I thought they had stopped under the underpass, but they hadn't. So they went on around the bend, and after I couldn't see from there I ran to another, the second window.
Mr.Ball. That second one you ran to, you pointed that out to me last Friday, did you?
Mr.Jarman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And the picture was taken of that, is that right?
Mr.Jarman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And that window is on which side?
Mr.Jarman. On the west side of the building also.
Mr.Ball. I show you 489. Is that a picture of the west window?
Mr.Jarman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And what did you see when you looked out that window?
Mr.Jarman. When I looked out that window, I saw the policemen and the secret agents, the FBI men, searching the boxcar yard and the passenger train and things like that.
Mr.Ball. Where were you when you heard Harold Norman say something that he had heard cartridges?
Mr.Jarman. All that took place right here in this corner after we had went to this window.
Mr.Ball. This corner. What corner do you mean?
Mr.Jarman. In the corner of the building right after we had looked out this window.
Mr.Ball. Which corner?
Mr.Jarman. Right here on the west side of the building.
Mr.Ball. On the west side of the building?
Mr.Jarman. Right.
Mr.Ball. And would that be the window that is shown in 488, or the window that is shown in 489?
Mr.Jarman. It was between the two windows.
Mr.Ball. Between the two?
Mr.Jarman. As we was going to this window.
Mr.Ball. To that window?
Mr.Jarman. Yes.
Mr.Ball. What did you hear him say?
Mr.Jarman. He said it was something sounded like cartridges hitting the floor, and he could hear the action of the rifle, I mean the bolt, as it were pulled back, or something like that.
Mr.Ball. Had you heard anything like that?
Mr.Jarman. No, sir; I hadn't.
Mr.Ball. Had you heard any person running upstairs?
Mr.Jarman. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Or any steps upstairs?
Mr.Jarman. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Any noise at all up there?
Mr.Jarman. None.
Mr.Ball. I have here a diagram which is 487. This is the southeast corner of the building on this diagram. Do you recognize that?
Mr.Jarman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. This is the Elm Street side?
Mr.Jarman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Will you point out the window to which you three boys ran when you looked out, you opened the window and looked out towardsthe——
Mr.Jarman. This one here.
Mr.Ball. The one marked Y on this diagram?
Mr.Jarman. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Is that right?
Mr.Jarman. This one right here.
Mr.Ball. That one marked Y.
Mr.Jarman. Right.
Mr.Ball. Where is the window to which you went afterwards to look out when you saw the police and other agents searching boxcars?
Mr.Jarman. I went to the second window from the south side of the building on the west.
Mr.Ball. Is that the one marked Z?
Mr.Jarman. Yes.
Mr.Ball. At that time could you see the stairwell when you stood there at Z?
Mr.Jarman. No, sir; I couldn't.
Mr.Ball. Why?
Mr.Jarman. Because there is a row of bins there with books in them.
Mr.Ball. They block your view?
Mr.Jarman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And did we conduct an experiment there to see how much you could see from Z?
Mr.Jarman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. I show you a picture, 491. Do you remember standing in line near the stairwell?
Mr.Jarman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. That is you on the end, isn't it?
Mr.Jarman. Right.
Mr.Ball. On the end, the farthest from the stairwell?
Mr.Jarman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And we took a picture, is that right?
Mr.Jarman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Of that area. Does that show the bins?
Mr.Jarman. That shows the bins.
Mr.Ball. I am now referring to 492.
Mr.Jarman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Now was there any part of the stairwell that you could see when you were along this west wall?
Mr.Jarman. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Could you see the elevators?
Mr.Jarman. I imagine if I had looked over, but I didn't.
Mr.Ball. Do you remember any of the elevators coming up or down as you were standing there at the west window?
Mr.Jarman. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Looking toward the railroad track?
Mr.Jarman. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Do you remember seeing Mr. Truly?
Mr.Jarman. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Or did you see a motorcycle officer come up?
Mr.Jarman. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Or did you hear the elevator go up?
Mr.Jarman. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. What did you men do after you looked out the window toward the railroad tracks from the west window?
Mr.Jarman. Well, after Norman had made his statement that he had heard the cartridges hit the floor and this bolt action, I told him we'd better get the hell from up here.
Mr.Ball. Did anybody suggest you go up to the sixth floor?
Mr.Jarman. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. And where did you go then?
Mr.Jarman. Down. We ran to the elevator first, but the elevator had gone down.
Mr.Ball. Where did you go?
Mr.Jarman. Then we ran to the stairway and ran downstairs, and we paused a few minutes on four.
Mr.Ball. Which elevator did you run to?
Mr.Jarman. To the elevator on the west side.
Mr.Ball. On the west. That wasn't there?
Mr.Jarman. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. When you went downstairs, what did you see on the first floor?
Mr.Jarman. When we got downstairs on the first floor, I think the first one I seen was Eddie Piper.
Mr.Ball. Eddie Piper works there, does he?
Mr.Jarman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And who else did you see?
Mr.Jarman. And I ran into Roy Edward Lewis, which is also another employee.
Mr.Ball. Did you see anybody else there?
Mr.Jarman. No, sir. I ran, then we ran to the front door.
Mr.Ball. You ran to the front door?
Mr.Jarman. Yes, sir; and out on the street.
Mr.Ball. You and who?
Mr.Jarman. Harold Norman.
Mr.Ball. You and Harold went out there?
Mr.Jarman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did you ever see a fellow named Brennan?
Mr.Jarman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Where did you see him first?
Mr.Jarman. He was talking to a police officer.
Mr.Ball. How was he dressed?
Mr.Jarman. He was dressed in construction clothes.
Mr.Ball. Anything else, any other way to describe him?
Mr.Jarman. Well, he had on a silverlike helmet.
Mr.Ball. Hard-hat?
Mr.Jarman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did you stay out there very long?
Mr.Jarman. Just a few minutes.
Mr.Ball. Then where did you go?
Mr.Jarman. We heard him talking to this officer about that he had heard these shots and he had seen the barrel of the gun sticking out the window, and he said that the shots came from inside the building, and I told the officer that I believed that they came from inside the building also, and then he rushed us back inside.
Mr.Ball. The officer did?
Mr.Jarman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. How did you know this fellow was Brennan?
Mr.Jarman. Well, at that time I didn't know him at all.
Mr.Ball. Have you learned that since?
Mr.Jarman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Who told you that the man in the hard-hat was Brennan?
Mr.Jarman. Well, they have had him down there at the building a couple of times.
Mr.Ball. Were you taken to the police station?
Mr.Jarman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did you make a statement?
Mr.Jarman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. When?
Mr.Jarman. That Saturday morning.
Mr.Ball. The next day?
Mr.Jarman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. How long did you stay in the building, the Texas School Book Depository Building that afternoon?
Mr.Jarman. I'd say it was somewhere between two and two-thirty when they turned us loose and told us to go home.
Mr.Ball. When you were there did you notice whether any of the employees were missing?
Mr.Jarman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. When did you notice, and who was missing?
Mr.Jarman. When we started to line up to show our identification, quite a few of us asked where was Lee. That is what we called him, and he wasn't anywhere around. We started asking each other, have you seen Lee Oswald, and they said no.
Mr.Ball. Was there anybody else missing?
Mr.Jarman. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Who.
Mr.Jarman. Charles Douglas Givens, I believe.
Mr.Ball. Charles Givens?
Mr.Jarman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Anybody else?
Mr.Jarman. I can't recall.
Mr.McCloy. Had Givens been in the Depository that morning?
Mr.Jarman. Yes, sir; he had.
Mr.McCloy. He had been there?
Mr.Jarman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did Givens come back later?
Mr.Jarman. He didn't come back to the building until they picked him up.
Mr.Ball. He did come back to the building before you left, did he?
Mr.Jarman. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. He didn't?
Mr.Jarman. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. He was not there when you left?
Mr.Jarman. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. When you were on the fifth floor, did you pay any attention to whether or not there was noise above you, before the shots were fired?
Mr.Jarman. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr.Ball. In other words, if there was noise up there—let's put it this way. If there had been any noise up there, you didn't notice it?
Mr.Jarman. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr.Ball. Now after the shooting, did you hear any noise from upstairs?
Mr.Jarman. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did you listen for any?
Mr.Jarman. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. How long was it before you ran down to the west end, from the time of the shots until you ran down to the west end, about how much time do you think it was?
Mr.Jarman. After the third shot was fired I would say it was about a minute.
Mr.McCloy. You have had military experience, haven't you?
Mr.Jarman. Yes, sir.
Mr.McCloy. And you can recognize rifle shots when you hear them?
Mr.Jarman. Yes, sir.
Mr.McCloy. But you didn't hear, you didn't catch the sound of the bolt moving?
Mr.Jarman. No, sir.
Mr.McCloy. Did you see the President actually hit by the bullets?
Mr.Jarman. No, sir. I couldn't say that I saw him actually hit, but after the second shot, I presumed that he was, because I had my eye on his car fromthe time it came down Houston until the time it started toward the freeway underpass.
Mr.McCloy. You saw him crumple, you saw him fall, did you?
Mr.Jarman. I saw him lean his head.
RepresentativeFord. You actually saw the car lurch forward, did you?
Mr.Jarman. Yes, sir.
RepresentativeFord. That is a distinct impression?
Mr.Jarman. Yes.
RepresentativeFord. And you had followed it as it turned from Main on to Houston and followed it as it turned from Houston on to Elm?
Mr.Jarman. Right, sir.
RepresentativeFord. Had your eye on the car all the time?
Mr.Jarman. Yes, sir.
RepresentativeFord. Where did you think the sound of the first shot came from? Do you have a distinct impression of that?
Mr.Jarman. Well, it sounded, I thought at first it had came from below. That is what I thought.
RepresentativeFord. As you looked out the window and you were looking at the President's car.
Mr.Jarman. Yes, sir.
RepresentativeFord. Did you have a distinct impression as to whether the sound came from your left or from your right?
Mr.Jarman. I am sure it came from the left.
RepresentativeFord. But your first reaction, that is was from below.
Mr.Jarman. Yes, sir.
RepresentativeFord. When the second shot came, do you have any different recollection?
Mr.Jarman. Well, they all sounded just about the same.
RepresentativeFord. You distinctly recall three shots?
Mr.Jarman. Yes, sir.
RepresentativeFord. And at what point did you get up from where you were on your knees in the window?
Mr.Jarman. When the motorcar picked up speed.
RepresentativeFord. Was this after what you thought was the third shot?
Mr.Jarman. The third shot; yes.
RepresentativeFord. Mr. McCloy said you had been in the army 8 years, two 4-year hitches. Was there any doubt in your mind that this was a gunshot, either one of the three?
Mr.Jarman. Not after the second shot. I didn't have any doubt in my mind then.
RepresentativeFord. When did you first learn of the President's motorcade route?
Mr.Jarman. That morning.
RepresentativeFord. Friday morning, November 22d?
Mr.Jarman. Yes, sir.
RepresentativeFord. How did you find out about it?
Mr.Jarman. The foreman of the employees on the first floor.
RepresentativeFord. What is his name?
Mr.Jarman. William Shelley was standing up talking to Mrs. Lee.
RepresentativeFord. To Mrs. Lee?
Mr.Jarman. Miss Lee, or Mrs. Lee, I think, and he was discussing to her about the President coming, asked her was she going to stand out there and see him pass.
RepresentativeFord. About what time Friday morning was this?
Mr.Jarman. I imagine it would be about—I think it was between 8:30 and 9:00. I am not sure.
RepresentativeFord. You hadn't read about it in the papers the night before or that morning?
Mr.Jarman. No, sir.
RepresentativeFord. When did you have this conversation with Lee Oswald, where he asked you—you told him that the motorcade was coming by the School Book Depository Building?
Mr.Jarman. It was some time that morning, between 9:30 and 10:30.
RepresentativeFord. This was after you heard Mr. Shelley and Miss or Mrs. Lee talk?
Mr.Jarman. Discuss it—yes.
RepresentativeFord. Did Oswald ask you, or did you initiate the conversation and tell Oswald of the route?
Mr.Jarman. He asked me.
RepresentativeFord. What was his reaction?
Mr.Jarman. After I had told him the route that the President probably would take, he just said, "Oh, I see" and went back to filling orders.
RepresentativeFord. You testified earlier that you were standing on the steps or in front of the School Depository Building prior to the President's motorcade coming by the building.
Mr.Jarman. No, sir. I was standing on the sidewalk.
RepresentativeFord. But in front of the building?
Mr.Jarman. In front of the building.
RepresentativeFord. Then you said you went around the building.
Mr.Jarman. Yes.
RepresentativeFord. What route did you take? Did you go down Elm or did you go down Houston?
Mr.Jarman. I went to the corner of the building facing Elm, and turned going north on Houston.
RepresentativeFord. Can you turn around and—here is the main entrance on Elm Street. And you were standing out on the sidewalk more or less where?
Mr.Jarman. Right here.
RepresentativeFord. In which direction did you go then?
Mr.Jarman. This way.
RepresentativeFord. You went by the front to the corner of Houston and Elm, and then down Houston towards the loading dock?
Mr.Jarman. Yes, sir.
RepresentativeFord. And where did you get on the elevator?
Mr.Jarman. We walked around to the back entrance and went through this door here, and this elevator here was up on six, I believe. And we walked around the elevator and took the west elevator up.
RepresentativeFord. How could you tell this elevator was at six?
Mr.Jarman. Because after we got around to the other side we looked up.
RepresentativeFord. You could see it was on six?
Mr.Jarman. Yes.
RepresentativeFord. This was about what time?
Mr.Jarman. That was about 12:25 or 12:28.
RepresentativeFord. You got off the fifth floor?
Mr.Jarman. Yes, sir.
RepresentativeFord. As you rode the elevator, you noticed the other one was on the sixth floor?
Mr.Jarman. Right, sir.
RepresentativeFord. Have you ever been in any trouble with the police or did you ever have any disciplinary troubles in the Army?
Mr.Jarman. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. How was Oswald dressed that morning when you saw him at work? Do you remember that?
Mr.Jarman. I don't exactly recall how he was dressed. I think he had on some dress pants. But I didn't notice the color.
Mr.Ball. What kind of pants?
Mr.Jarman. Some kind of these slacks you wear.
Mr.Ball. What kind of a shirt?
Mr.Jarman. Ivy leagues, I believe.
Mr.Ball. What kind of a shirt, do you know?
Mr.Jarman. He never hardly worked in a shirt. He worked in a T-shirt.
Mr.Ball. Do you remember if he had a T-shirt on that day?
Mr.Jarman. Yes; he had on a T-shirt that morning.
Mr.Ball. I have no further questions.
Mr.McCloy. Did you see at any time Oswald that morning with a bundle or package of any kind?