Mr.Rankin. Can you give us the approximate location of where it was when you heard the second shot?
Mr.Curry. Well, it would have been just a few feet further because these shots were in fairly rapid succession.
Mr.Rankin. How many feet do you mean?
Mr.Curry. I would say perhaps, and this is just an estimate on my part, perhaps 25 or 30 feet further along.
Mr.Rankin. Then at the time of the third shot?
Mr.Curry. A few feet further, perhaps 15–20 feet further.
Mr.Rankin. Do you have an opinion as to the time that expired between the first shot and the third shot?
Mr.Curry. This is just an opinion on my part but I would think perhaps 5 or 6 seconds.
Mr.Rankin. Did you hear any more than three shots?
Mr.Curry. No, sir; I did not.
Mr.Rankin. Are you sure of that?
Mr.Curry. I am positive of that. I heard three shots. I will never forget it.
Mr.Rankin. Do you have something, Mr. McCloy?
Mr.McCloy. I was going to ask you, chief, as you were approaching the underpass you were looking toward the underpass presumably?
Mr.Curry. That is right.
Mr.McCloy. Was the underpass bare of people or were there people on it?
Mr.Curry. No; I could see some people on each side but not immediately over,but there were some people up in the railroad yard. I also could see an officer up there. I don't know who the officer was.
Mr.McCloy. You could recognize an officer on the top of the underpass?
Mr.Curry. Yes; their instructions had been to place officers on every overpass and in every underpass.
Mr.McCloy. How close were you then to the underpass when you first heard that shot?
Mr.Curry. Oh, perhaps 150 feet or 100 feet or so.
Mr.McCloy. So you are convinced that the shot could not come from the overpass?
Mr.Curry. I don't believe it did; no, sir.
Mr.McCloy.Then——
Mr.Curry. Because there didn't seem to be any commotion going on over there. This seemed to be people that I could see, they didn't seem to run or anything. They just seemed to be there.
Mr.McCloy. You spoke of the railroad yard. Just where is that railroad yard in relation to the underpass? We will see that.
Mr.Curry. It isover——
Mr.McCloy. It is on the other side.
Mr.Curry. Yes, sir. You see these tracks.
Mr.Rankin. Mark that as Exhibit 703 and you can refer to.
Mr.Curry. Yes; here is the School Book Depository. The railroad goes over.
Mr.Dulles. This aerial view of the Elm Street there, isn't it of the underpass, will be admitted as 704.
(Commission Exhibit No. 704 was marked for identification, and received in evidence.)
Mr.McCloy. Do you call that the railroad yards?
Mr.Curry. Yes; that is true.
Mr.McCloy. Above the underpass?
Mr.Curry. Yes.
Mr.McCloy. Did you see a number of people in the railroad yard?
Mr.Curry. I would estimate maybe a half dozen.
Mr.Dulles. They were spectators or were they workmen. They were spectators?
Mr.Curry. Yes, sir; as well as I was able to tell. They might have been workmen, too, but I presume it was people who were in the area and as the motorcade approached they got into position where they perhaps could have seen it.
Mr.McCloy. Did you recognize any officer amongst them?
Mr.Curry. I seemed to recall seeing a uniformed police officer up there.
Mr.McCloy. In the railroad yard, and there was no commotion amongst the railroad yard people?
Mr.Curry. I don't believe so.
RepresentativeFord. Do you know who the officer was?
Mr.Curry. No, sir; but I believe by looking at the assignments we could determine what officer was up there.
There is an assignment of personnel which has been submitted for the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mrs.Rankin. On the record, we will supply for the purposes of this record the name of the officer and check it with Chief Curry, who was on the underpass or really the over part of the pass.
Mr.Curry. Really over.
Mr.Rankin. At the time of the motorcade.
RepresentativeFord. Who determined there should be one, not more officers at an overpass?
Mr.Curry. Deputy Chief Lunday and Assistant Chief Batchelor went over this route with Sorrels, and I believe Lawson was with them. And they were the ones who determined how many men would be placed at each location.
Mr.Rankin. The inquiry I think particularly is did the Secret Service decide it would be one or did you decide it would be one?
Mr.Curry. No; it would be the Secret Service because we just let them tell us how many men they wanted. The only deviation we made from that was inthe security of the Trade Mart. I believe they requested 143 men, as I recall to secure the Trade Mart, and I believe we supplied them with 193 or 194 men, somewhat in excess of what they asked for at this location.
I called the State police, and they furnished a number of men, about 30 men, and Sheriff Decker furnished about 15, and I think we furnished from our department everybody that they asked for really, so we had a surplus.
RepresentativeFord. But the details as to how many men should be placed where were determined by Lawson and Sorrels of the Secret Service?
Mr.Curry. That is right, sir; yes, sir.
(At this point Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.)
Mr.McCloy. May I ask one question?
As you were leading this or just ahead of the President's car, as you came around past the School Depository Building, was there anything that attracted your attention to the building at all as you went by?
Mr.Curry. Not at all.
Mr.McCloy. There was no movement or anything?
Mr.Curry. Not at all.
Mr.McCloy. You weren't conscious of looking up at the windows?
Mr.Curry. Not at all.
Mr.McCloy. You had Secret Service men in that car with you?
Mr.Curry. Yes, sir.
Mr.McCloy. Were they inspecting the windows as they went by?
Mr.Curry. It seemed that Sorrels, he was looking around a whole lot and so was Lawson. I know comments were being made along the route as to first one thing and then another.
Mr.Dulles. If you had had the other Car with police officers in it to which you referred and which I gathered you recommended what would have been the function and duties of the officers in that particular car?
Mr.Curry. It would have been, of course, to guard the President, but in the event that anything happened they would have immediately dropped out of their car with rifles and submachine guns. That was what we had planned.
Mr.Rankin. Now, as a part of the plans for the motorcade, was there anything said about the inspection of buildings along the route?
Mr.Curry. The comment was made that in a city like this how in the world could you inspect or put somebody in every window of every building.
Mr.Rankin. Who said that?
Mr.Curry. This was in a discussion with the Secret Service. I don't recall exactly who said this.
Mr.Rankin. Was it the Secret Service people or your people?
Mr.Curry. I don't know whether it was us or Secret Service. But this was discussed. I think it was Secret Service who told us how they always dreaded having to go through a downtown area where there were these skyscraper buildings.
Mr.Rankin. Do you know of any effort that was made to search any of the buildings?
Mr.Curry. Not to my knowledge. We did put some extra men from the special service bureau in the downtown area to work in midblocks to watch the crowd and they were not specifically told to watch buildings but they were told to watch everything.
Mr.Rankin. Where were they located?
Mr.Curry. On the route down Main Street. We didn't have any between Elm Street and the railroad yard.
Mr.Rankin. But you say in midblock?
Mr.Curry. Yes, sir; especially midblock along the route through the downtown area.
Mr.Rankin. Where would the downtown area be?
Mr.Curry. It would be from Harwood Street down to Houston Street.
Mr.Rankin. Chief Curry, do you know whether Officers Foster and White were on the underpass?
Mr.Curry. I would have to look at the assignment sheet to determine that, sir.
Mr.McCloy. May I ask at this point, unless I may be interfering with yourexamination, but was it usual for the representatives of the news media to attend showups in the police headquarters apart from this incident?
Mr.Curry. It was not unusual. This was not setting a precedent.
Mr.McCloy. It was not unusual.
RepresentativeFord. In such a showup where they are present, are they shielded from the person brought in for identification?
Mr.Curry. Are they shieldedfrom——
RepresentativeFord. From the person who is brought up for identification?
Mr.Curry. Ordinarily the person who is brought up for identification would be behind the screen, behind this silk screen. This is for the purpose of protecting the person who is going to try to identify him more than trying to protect the person who is being shown up because witnesses ofttimes have a fear of facing someone that they are asked to identify.
For this reason this screen was provided where the prisoner could not see out, but the people can see in. It is much like a one-way glass.
RepresentativeFord. That was used in this case?
Mr.Curry. No; this was not used. We just brought him in front of it.
RepresentativeFord. Any particular reason why he was put in front of it?
Mr.Curry. They asked us if we wouldn't bring him out there, they didn't think their cameras would show through the screen. And as I repeated, when this was brought up, I asked Mr. Wade, the district attorney, if he saw anything wrong with this and he said "No; I don't see anything wrong with this," so we agreed to do this.
RepresentativeFord. Who was in charge of the actual showup operation?
Mr.Curry. The jail personnel would have brought him down from downstairs and brought him into the room and then removed him.
RepresentativeFord. Who handled the actual process of identification or attempted identification by various witnesses?
Mr.Curry. Usually Captain Fritz or some of his homicide detectives are present. I know when they were having a showup for a little lady, I don't know her name but she was a waitress who observed the shooting of the officer, I just—I wasn't there during the entire showup but I was present part of the showup and Captain Fritz was asking her to observe these people and see if she could pick out the man she saw who shot the officer and she didn't identify Oswald at that time.
RepresentativeFord. Did you say the actual process that was—that took place in these several showups was similar to or different from the showups in other cases?
Mr.Curry. The only one where we didn't have any particular witnesses to show him up to, but the number of the news media had asked if they couldn't see him and it was almost impossible for all of them to see him up in this hallway and we decided that the best thing to do, if we were going to let them see him at all would be to take them and get them into a room, and then there was utter confusion after we did that because they tried to overrun him after we got him there and we immediately removed him and took him back upstairs.
RepresentativeFord. You mentioned earlier there had been some allegations to the effect that Oswald had been badly treated.
Mr.Curry. There was—I didn't hear this myself but someone told me, I don't recall who it was, that some of the news media, I understood this was broadcast over the radio and TV.
RepresentativeFord. Did you investigate that rumor?
Mr.Curry. Yes, sir.
RepresentativeFord. What did you find out?
Mr.Curry. I found he had not been mistreated.
RepresentativeFord. You checked with all the police personnel who had anything to do with it?
Mr.Curry. Everyone I knew about and the only marks on him was, that I could see there was a slight mark on his face up here, and this was received when he was fighting the officers in that theatre, and they had to subdue him and in the scuffle, this episode in the theatre, he apparently received a couple of marks on his face.
But he didn't complain to me about it. I think he—one of the times he wascoming down the hall someone asked him what was the matter with his eye and he said, "A cop hit me," I believe, or "A policeman hit me."
RepresentativeFord. Did you ask Oswald whether he had been mistreated?
Mr.Curry. I don't believe I did, sir.
RepresentativeFord. But you talked to Oswald on one or more occasions?
Mr.Curry. I don't know that I ever asked him any questions at all. I was present during the interrogation, but he was very sullen and arrogant and he didn't have much to say to anybody. Fritz, I think did more talking to him than anybody else.
RepresentativeFord. But not in your presence did he object to any treatment he received from the Dallas police force?
Mr.Curry. No, sir; I would like to say for the record that we are very strict on our officers in the treatment of prisoners, and we have a personnel section setup that any person who complains that they have been mistreated by the police officer, a thorough investigation is made, and if it is determined that he has been mistreated in any way, disciplinary action is taken, and on occasion we have, not frequently, but on occasion where we have found that this has been true we have dismissed personnel for mistreating a prisoner, so our personnel know positively this is not tolerated regardless of who it is.
Mr.Rankin. Chief, you have described a showup, and you have also described the general practice. You have also described showups in regard to Oswald and you said there were several of them.
Mr.Curry. When I said several, to the best of my knowledge there were perhaps three altogether.
Mr.Rankin. Yes, one you were describing when the screen was not used was not for the purpose of identification, is that right?
Mr.Curry. No, sir; unless some of the news media had come forward and said, "We saw that man"; you see a lot of that news media, that was present, were with the Presidential party and there is a possibility that some of them might have said we saw this man to leave the scene.
Mr.Rankin. So the principal reason was to allow the news media?
Mr.Curry. The principal reason was at their request that they be allowed to see the prisoner.
Mr.Rankin. And he wasn't placed back of the screen at that time?
Mr.Curry. No, sir; he was not.
Mr.Rankin. And whatever identification there would be would be under the hope that they might have seen him?
Mr.Curry. They might have seen him because a great number of the news media were at the scene of the shooting or in the immediate area.
Mr.Rankin. And that is the particular showup when you learned later Jack Ruby was supposed to have been present?
Mr.Curry. I was told that he was present. That someone had seen him back in this room. He easily could have been there as far as I was concerned because I wouldn't have known him from anyone else.
Mr.Rankin. At the other showups, were witnesses there to try to identify Oswald?
Mr.Curry. Yes, there were.
Mr.Rankin. How were those handled, do you know?
Mr.Curry. Exactly the same manner except that he was brought in behind the screen, and was handcuffed to some police officers or other prisoners.
Mr.Rankin. Do you know who was there to try to identify him?
Mr.Curry. Only on one occasion. This was a little lady that was a waitress.
Mr.Rankin. Mrs. Markham?
Mr.Curry. I believe her name was Mrs. Markham.
Mr.Rankin. Do you believe whether she was able to identify him?
Mr.Curry. Yes, I heard her tell Captain Fritz that was the man she saw shoot the officer.
Mr.Rankin. And that was Officer Tippit?
Mr.Curry. Yes, sir.
Mr.Rankin. What kind of a reputation did Officer Tippit have with the police force?
Mr.Dulles. Could I ask one question before that. Were you present whenany members of Oswald's family, his wife, his mother, saw him or talked with him?
Mr.Curry. No, sir; I was not.
Mr.Dulles. Do you know whether any of your officers were?
Mr.Curry. I understood they were brought to the third floor of the city hall and were placed in a room, and that if any of them were present it probably would have been Captain Fritz.
Mr.Dulles. He would know about it?
Mr.Curry. I believe he would, yes.
Mr.Dulles. Thank you.
Mr.Rankin. Will you tell us what Officer Tippit's reputation was with your police force?
Mr.Curry. He had a reputation of being a very fine, dedicated officer.
Mr.Rankin. How long had he been with you?
Mr.Curry. I believe he came to work for us in 1952, after he had had service in the paratroopers, I believe, and he had made several jumps into Europe. He was raised in a rural community, and he was very well thought of by the people in the community where he grew up. He was a rather quiet, serious minded young man. He seemed to be very devoted to his family, and he was an active church man.
Mr.Rankin. What was his rank?
Mr.Curry. Patrolman. He was not a real aggressive type officer. In fact, he seemed to be just a little bit shy, if you were to meet him, I believe, shy, retiring type, but certainly not afraid of anything. I think in his personnel investigation it showed that during, as he was growing up, sometimes his shyness was mistaken for perhaps fear, but that it only took a time or two for someone to exploit this to find out it wasn't fear. It was merely a quiet, shy-type individual.
Mr.Rankin. Was there any record in the police department of any disciplinary action toward him?
Mr.Curry. The only disciplinary action ever taken was he was given a day off one time because he had missed court on two occasions.
Mr.Dulles. Missed what?
Mr.Curry. Missed court.
Mr.Rankin. He had been unable to testify or something?
Mr.Curry. Yes, sir; in city court they have to appear 1 day a week. They are notified each week to appear but they are told on one day will be their court day and if any cases coming up it would be that time. And on two occasions he failed to appear. I think one time he forgot it and I think another time he said he was tied up on a radio call or something and didn't notify him and it is just a departmental policy if you miss court twice you are given a day off for it.
Mr.Rankin. Was that the penalty that was imposed?
Mr.Curry. Yes, it was. He took it in very good graces, he didn't feel like he was being mistreated.
Mr.Rankin. That was the only disciplinary action against him?
Mr.Curry. Yes, sir; there was one other complaint in his file, where he had stopped a lady and given her a ticket and also had given her, he gave her two tickets, one for no operator's license, and after he had issued the tickets she found her driver's license, and she called to him across the street, and said something about she found her license and he told her okay, show it in court, but she thought he was being rather abrupt and discourteous to her, she felt like he should have come back over and taken this ticket for driver's license and destroyed it.
Under our rules and regulations you cannot destroy a ticket; if it is destroyed it has to be accounted in our auditor's office and that was the only complaint in the years on the force.
Mr.Dulles. A rumor reached me that Officer Tippit had been some way involved in some narcotic trouble, I don't know what the foundation of that is. Do you know anything about that at all?
Mr.Curry. Nothing whatsoever; no, sir.
RepresentativeFord. You mean you know nothing about it or you checked it out and there is no validity?
Mr.Curry. This is the first I ever heard of it that he was involved in any narcotics.
RepresentativeFord. But your records, so far as you know, would not indicate such?
Mr.Curry. No, sir.
Mr.Dulles. Thank you.
Mr.McCloy. Did you, so far as you know, did Tippit know Ruby?
Mr.Curry. I don't believe he did. I am sure he didn't. He would not be the type I think that would even have any occasion to know him because some of the officers that we found that did know him, either worked in the area where he had a night club or some of the officers that worked in the vice squad who had occasion to go in and inspect these cases or a few officers we found they went out there for social purposes, outside their regular duty.
Tippit, for a number of years, had been assigned out in Oak Cliff. I don't think he had ever been assigned in an area where Jack Ruby—well Jack Ruby did live in Oak Cliff but I am sure, to the best of my knowledge, Tippit never had any occasion to be around Jack Ruby.
Mr.Dulles. Was Tippit at the time he was killed on a regular assigned assignment or was he just roving in a particular area?
Mr.Curry. On this particular day, now he had been assigned to Oak Cliff for several months farther out than he was, but when this incident occurred at the Texas School Book Depository, this is customary policy in the police department if something happens on this district and tying up several squads that the squads from the other district automatically move in in a position where they can cover off or something else might happen here, much the same as fire equipment does, this is automatic.
Mr.Rankin. Will you explain that further?
Mr.Curry. Yes, sir; say two squads were to get a call in an area, and this area here, say they had a big fire or something, they brought two or three squads in here from adjoining districts, then automatically these squads out in these other areas would begin to cover off or get in a position to where if instead of staying out here on the far side of this district, they would perhaps move into this district right here where they could answer here, here or over into here. This is just automatic patrol policy.
On this particular day, some of the squads in this Oak Cliff area had been ordered over into the Dallas area, this Texas School Book Depository, and some of these other outlying squads then, I think we have this on a radio log, I don't know whether you have this or not, were 78 or 81.
Mr.Ball. Why don't you read it in the record, a definite order for Tippit to come in there.
Mr.Curry. Right here. This would have been at approximately 12:45, I believe. Here is the description came out at about 12:45. The dispatcher put out a description of attention all squads.
Mr.Dulles. What do you mean by description?
Mr.Curry. Of a suspect.
Mr.Dulles. I see, description of Oswald?
Mr.Curry. Yes.
Mr.Rankin. What are you reading from, Chief?
Mr.Curry. This is radio log record from the Dallas Police Department, as recorded on November 22.
Mr.Rankin. Is that from Commission Document 728?
Mr.Dulles. I want to correct my question, it was a man seen leaving?
Mr.Curry. It was a description of a suspect.
Mr.Dulles. You didn't know it was Oswald?
Mr.Rankin. Will you tell us what the rest of that notation is?
Mr.Curry. Dispatcher put out this description, "attention all squads Elm and Houston, unknown white male person approximately 30, slender build, height 5 feet 10, 160 pounds, reported to be armed with what is believed to be a .30-caliber rifle. Attention all squads, the suspect is believed to be whitemale 30, 5 feet 10 inches, slender build, armed with what is thought to be a .30-30 rifle, no further description at this time."
This was at 12:45 p.m.
Mr.Rankin. What channel are you talking about?
Mr.Curry. Channel 1.
Mr.Rankin. You had more than one channel?
Mr.Curry. Two channels.
Mr.Rankin. Yes.
Mr.Curry. Someone came in, they didn't identify themselves and came in and said what are they wanted for, and they said signal 19 which is a shooting under our code involving the President.
RepresentativeFord. Did Tippit's motorcycle have channel 1?
Mr.Curry. He was in a squad car and most of our squad cars have channel 1 and 2, but they stay on channel 1 unless they are instructed to switch over to channel 2.
Mr.Dulles. He did have channel 1?
Mr.Curry. Yes. Now within the minute of broadcasting, a little further on, squads 102 and 233 checked out at Elm and Houston, 81 came in the district squad, that was an Oak Cliff squad. He said "I will be going north from Industrial on Corinth." That means he was leaving the Oak Cliff section coming toward the downtown section of Dallas.
RepresentativeFord. By he who do you mean?
Mr.Curry. The man assigned to district 81, and I don't have his name but it would be on our records.
Then Tippit was working 78 and he along with district 87, which is further out in Oak Cliff, at about 12:45, between 12:45 and 12:46, the dispatcher sent out this message to him, "87-78 moving into central Oak Cliff area."
Now the central Oak Cliff area would have been the area nearby where this shooting occurred.
RepresentativeFord. Shooting of Tippit?
Mr.Curry. Shooting of Tippit occurred. I am sure—a little later on here, he says "you are in Oak Cliff area, are you not," and he said "at Lancaster and 8th", that would be just several blocks from where this shooting then occurred.
Mr.McCloy. This is Tippit's reply going in?
Mr.Curry. Yes.
Mr.Rankin. The next sentence also says something, Chief?
Mr.Curry. And the dispatcher told him, "You will be at large for any emergency that comes in." In other words, he was one of the remaining squads in Oak Cliff that was in service.
Mr.Dulles. What does that mean, scout around the area?
Mr.Curry. Anywhere in that central area, Oak Cliff.
Mr.McCloy. Did he reply to that?
Mr.Curry. He said "10-4".
Mr.Rankin. What does that mean?
Mr.Curry. It means message received.
Mr.Rankin. Doesn't that mean approval?
Mr.Curry. Yes, sir.
RepresentativeFord. These are transcriptions of communications back and forth?
Mr.Curry. That is recorded on our radio there in Dallas.
Mr.Rankin. Is there a tape recorder on that?
Mr.Curry. Yes; and it is kept for a permanent record.
Mr.Rankin. Was there any other shooting in this particular area where Officer Tippit was that morning, do you know?
Mr.Curry. Not to my knowledge.
Mr.Dulles. Is that 10-4 message the last message you received from Tippit?
Mr.Curry. As far as I know that is the last word we heard from him.
Mr.McCloy. Was this description of the suspect the first description that went out?
Mr.Curry. As far as I know, it is.
Mr.Dulles. That was at 12:45, as I recall.
Mr.Curry. Approximately, yes.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr.Rankin. When did you first learn of Officer Tippit's murder?
Mr.Curry. While I was out at Parkland Hospital. That is after we had taken the President there and the Governor, and we were waiting there.
Mr.Rankin. Now, on these showups for Lee Oswald, did you have any special security arrangements about bringing him in among all this crowd of news people?
Mr.Curry. We had some police officers bringing him down. I was there, Captain Fritz went, I don't believe he went inside the door. He went to the door, I believe. There were several officers there, yes.
Mr.Rankin. Was this more than usual?
Mr.Curry. Perhaps so; yes. Ordinarily there would have been maybe a jailer and a jail guard with the prisoner. And there would have been the detective out with the witnesses.
Mr.Rankin. Were you disturbed about the security for Lee Oswald with all this crowd?
Mr.Curry. Not at that time. I really didn't suspect any trouble from the news media. I thought they were there doing a professional job of reporting the news and I had no reason to be concerned about the news media.
Mr.Rankin. Did it concern you that there were so many additional people to try to keep track of as wellas——
Mr.Curry. Yes, sir; it did.
Mr.Rankin. What did you do about it?
Mr.Curry. I didn't do anything about it but I was concerned about it. I was thinking that we were going to have to, in the event we have had an incident like this occur again, that we would have to make some different arrangements for the press. We couldn't, when I say the press, the news media, we couldn't have the city hall overrun like this.
Mr.Rankin. Did it occur to you to do anything about stopping it right then?
Mr.Curry. No. I didn't discuss it with any of my staff that we should clear all these people out of here and get them outside the city hall.
Mr.Rankin. You gave no consideration to that kind of approach?
Mr.Curry. Not at the time.
Mr.Rankin. Now after the interrogation of Oswald, did you make some decision about moving him?
Mr.Curry. Not at that particular time. It is customary after we file on a person that he be removed from the city hall.
Mr.Rankin. What do you mean by file on a person?
Mr.Curry. File a case against him and that is necessary to go to the district attorney's office usually, and in this case the district attorney was there and we filed it at the city hall because the district attorney was with us.
Mr.Rankin. A criminal complaint?
Mr.Curry. A criminal complaint. After we file this complaint it is customary for the prisoner to be transferred from the city to the county jail and to remain in custody until he makes bond or is brought to trial.
Mr.Rankin. That is a regular practice?
Mr.Curry. Yes, sir. These transfers are usually made by the sheriff's office, sometime during the morning.
Mr.Rankin. By the sheriff's office you mean it is the sheriff's responsibility?
Mr.Curry. Routine transfers are made. It is not a hard and fast custom. Many times we will take the prisoner to the sheriff.
Mr.Rankin. Who decides which way you will do it?
Mr.Curry. It is left up to the bureau commander.
Mr.Rankin. What do you mean by the bureau commander?
Mr.Curry. That is handling the case.
Mr.Rankin. Who would that be in this case?
Mr.Curry. In this case it would have been Captain Fritz.
Mr.Rankin. And he decides then in all cases of this type whether or not the police will take him across to the sheriff's jail or the sheriff will come and get him?
Mr.Curry. Yes, sir; ordinarily it wouldn't even come to my attention how it was handled.
Mr.Rankin. Did it come to your attention this time?
Mr.Curry. It did this time. I had asked, it seemed to me like it was on Saturday after he had been filed on late or early Friday morning, the news media many times had asked me when are you going to transfer him and I said, "I don't know."
Mr.Rankin. What do you mean by "early Friday morning?"
Mr.Curry. I mean early Saturday morning. Late Friday night or early Saturday morning.
RepresentativeFord. Where do you actually do this filing?
Mr.Curry. Ordinarily our detectives would go down to the courthouse which is right near where the President was assassinated and file it in the district attorney's office. However, in this case the district attorney and also his assistant was up at the city hall with us, and we drew up the complaints there at the city hall.
Mr.Rankin. Who do you mean by we?
Mr.Curry. When I say we, I mean the Dallas police officers and the homicide officers working in this case.
Mr.Rankin. I see.
RepresentativeFord. What evidence did you have at that point?
Mr.Curry. I couldn't tell you all the evidence. I think Captain Fritz can tell you better than I. Captain Fritz just told me on Friday afternoon he said, "We have sufficient evidence to file a case on Oswald for the murder of Tippit." Later on that night, somewhere around midnight, I believe, he told me, he said, "We now have sufficient evidence to file on Lee Harvey Oswald for the assassination of President Kennedy."
He told me he had talked it over with Henry Wade and with the assistant district attorney and they agreed we had enough evidence to file a case, and a decision was made then to file the case, which we did.
RepresentativeFord. At that time you had the rifle, did you not?
Mr.Curry. Yes, sir.
RepresentativeFord. Who made the original identification of the rifle, the kind of rifle that it was?
Mr.Curry. I don't know, sir.
RepresentativeFord. It was reported that the original identification was a 7.65 Mauser. Are those reports true or untrue?
Mr.Curry. I wouldn't know, sir.
RepresentativeFord. You don't know?
Mr.Curry. I don't know.
RepresentativeFord. Do you know when it was finally determined that it was not a 7.65 Mauser?
Mr.Curry. No, sir; I don't know that.
Mr.McCloy. As far as I know there was no police report that it was a 7.65 rifle.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr.Rankin. Chief Curry, do you know of any police records of your police department that showed that this weapon that was purportedly involved in the assassination was a Mauser rifle?
Mr.Curry. No, sir; not to my knowledge.
RepresentativeFord. All of your records show affirmatively it was the Italian rifle?
Mr.Curry. Yes, sir. That is correct.
Mr.McCloy. While we are waiting for Mr. Rankin to continue his examination, let me ask you this question, Chief.
Did you, prior to the assassination, know or hear of Oswald?
Mr.Curry. Never.
Mr.McCloy. Didn't hear that he had been—there was a defector named Oswald in the city of Dallas?
Mr.Curry. No, sir.
Mr.McCloy. Never heard of his name?
Mr.Curry. We didn't have it in our files.
RepresentativeFord. Was there anything in your files that Lee Harvey Oswald had been involved with the Dallas police force?
Mr.Curry. No, sir.
RepresentativeFord. No record whatsoever?
Mr.Curry. No, sir.
Mr.Dulles. Was there any record of his having made a trip to the Soviet Union and returned?
Mr.Curry. Not in our files.
Mr.Dulles. And returned to Texas?
Mr.Curry. We didn't have anything in our files regarding Lee Harvey Oswald.
SenatorCooper. Could I follow up on that, did you have any record of any individuals, persons, in Dallas, or the area, who because of any threats of violence against the President or any Communist background required you to take any special security measures?
Mr.Curry. Yes, sir; when we have notables, celebrities visiting us, there are some groups in Dallas that are known to be extreme rightwing and extreme leftwing groups. We try to keep track of these people and what their plans are. We have been able to infiltrate most of their organizations.
SenatorCooper. Now prior to the President's visit, did you take any—did the Dallas Police force take any special security measures about any persons that you might suspect of possible violence?
Mr.Curry. Yes, sir; we kept some people under surveillance or groups under surveillance. We had prior to this visit, we had some information brought to us, I don't know who brought it to us, that there was a man in Sherman or Denison, who said that he is going to see that the President was embarrassed when he came to Dallas.
SenatorCooper. Who was that man, do you know?
Mr.Dulles. We have a Secret Service report, I believe with regard to this case. Here is one from the chief of police of Denton, Tex.
Mr.Curry. Yes; we had some information that the students at North Texas were planning some demonstrations.
SenatorCooper. My question is, did your police force take any special security measures about anyone that you felt might be capable of violence against the President?
Mr.Curry. Not at this particular time, because we had reports from the different groups, and we had information from inside these groups that they were not planning to do anything on the day the President was there. We knew that General Walker was out of the city, and we knew that his group that sometimes put on demonstrations.
SenatorCooper. When you say planning, you are not limiting it to any violence, but you are talking about any possible demonstrations?
Mr.Curry. Yes; demonstrations.
SenatorCooper. I want to come back to that point later, but I want to ask this, outside of what you had in your police files, your records, did you know yourself, or did you know whether anyone in authority in the police force or anyone in the police force, to your knowledge, had any knowledge of the presence of Oswald in Dallas?
Mr.Curry. No, sir; I have asked my criminal intelligence section, which would have been the persons who had knowledge of this.
SenatorCooper. Had anyone informed you that he was working in the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr.Curry. No, sir.
Mr.Dulles. Had he ever tangled with the Dallas Police in any respect of which there is any record?
Mr.Curry. We have no record at all of him.
RepresentativeFord. Did the Secret Service people inquire of you as to your knowledge of these various groups that you had infiltrated?
Mr.Curry. I don't remember them specifically asking me what were these groups planning to do.
RepresentativeFord. Did you volunteer any information on it?
Mr.Curry. I think perhaps we told them what we had done. They were aware of the fact that we did know the plans of the various organizations, and I know we sent Lieutenant Revill and a couple of his men up to Denison, or Denton, to talk to a man that had purportedly said they were going to embarrass the President and had made some remarks about it and after we talked with him he said, "I won't even be in Dallas. I was just popping off. I will assure you I am not even going to be down there. I don't want any part of it."
Then some of the study group in North Texas, we had an informant in this group, and they had decided they would be in Dallas with some placards to express opinions about the President or some of his views. Some of these people were arrested after the shooting because we were afraid that the people were going to harm them. They were down around the Trade Mart with some placards.
SenatorCooper. I have a couple of more questions.
Do you remember the full page advertisement that was in the Dallas paper?
Mr.Curry. I saw it; yes.
SenatorCooper. Directed against the President of the United States?
Mr.Curry. Yes.
SenatorCooper. What date did you give that statement in making any kind of preparations for his visit?
Mr.Curry. In the first place, I didn't think it was very appropriate, it makes us apprehensive, a little more apprehensive of the security of the President, but we were doing everything that I knew we could do to protect him. I will never forget that as we turned to go down toward that underpass the remark was made, "We have almost got it made," and I was very relieved that we had brought him through this downtown area, and were fixing to get on this expressway where we could take him out to the Trade Mart where we had a tremendous amount of security set up for him.
SenatorCooper. Since the assassination, have you had any actual factors or any evidence or information of any kind which would indicate that any person other than Oswald was involved in the assassination of President Kennedy?
Mr.Curry. No, sir; I have not.
Mr.Dulles. Was any investigation made of, I believe it was Weissman, or somebody by that name, who inserted this advertisement to which Senator Cooper referred, was any particular investigation made?
Mr.Curry. Not any investigation by us.
(At this point, Representative Ford withdrew from the hearing room.)
Mr.McCloy. I have one question.
Did you since the assassination or before have any information or any credible information which would indicate that there was any connection between Ruby and Oswald?
Mr.Curry. No, sir; we were not able to establish any connection between them.
Mr.McCloy. You made a thorough investigation of that?
Mr.Curry. Yes, sir; we made every attempt to prove or disprove an association between them, and we were not able to connect the two.
Mr.McCloy. Do you intend to ask the chief about the General Walker episode?
Mr.Rankin. Yes; and also about the Ruby episode.
Mr.McCloy. I think that is all I have at the moment.
Mr.Rankin. Chief, I put in front of you there as Exhibit 705, now marked as "Exhibit 705," your radio log that you have just been looking at and referred to, is that right?
Mr.Curry. Yes, sir.
Mr.Rankin. Will you turn to the page there where you find the first broadcast of the description of the suspect of the assassination of the President? Is that on your page 6 or thereabouts?
Mr.Curry. The pages—yes, it is page 6, channel 1.
Mr.Rankin. Will you tell what time of the day that is recorded as having been made?
Mr.Curry. This shows at the end the broadcast to be 12:45 p.m. It would be on November 22d.
Mr.Rankin. Mr. Chairman, I would like to offer Exhibit 705 being this radio log which covers a great many matters, but in light of the importanceof the time and the description and all, I think the entire log should go in and then we can refer to different items in it.
Mr.Dulles. It will be admitted as Commission's Exhibit No. 705.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 705, and received in evidence.)
Mr.Rankin. Now, will you read to the Commission a description that was given at that time of the suspect of the assassination?
Mr.Curry. The broadcast reads as follows: "Attention all squads. Attention all squads. At Elm and Houston, reported to be an unknown white male, approximately 30, slender build, height 5 feet 10 inches, 165 pounds. Reported to be armed with what is believed to be a .30-caliber rifle.
"Attention all squads, the suspect is believed to be white male, 30, 5 feet 10 inches, slender build, 165 pounds, armed with what is thought to be a .30-.30 rifle. No further description or information at this time. KKB there 64 Dallas, and the time given as 12:45 p.m."
Mr.Rankin. You have described Officer Tippit's number?
Mr.Curry. District 78.
Mr.Rankin. And that is recorded along the left-hand side when there is any message either from him or to him, is that right?
Mr.Curry. That is correct.
Mr.Rankin. Do you find there a message directed to him about moving to the central Oak Cliff area?
Mr.Curry. Yes, sir.
Mr.Rankin. And what time is that message recorded?
Mr.Curry. Immediately following this dispatch to him to district squads 87 and 78, EBG 78.
Mr.Rankin. What time?
Mr.Curry. The time is given as 12:46.
Mr.Rankin. What does it say?
Mr.Curry. The dispatcher asked him "87 and 78" or instructed him "Move into the central Oak Cliff area."
Mr.Rankin. Did he respond to that?
Mr.Curry. A little later he did.
Mr.Rankin. When?
Mr.Curry. We have—he was asked his location, would be about 1 o'clock.
Mr.Rankin. Did he say what it was?
Mr.Curry. He didn't come back in at that time. At 1:08 p.m. they called him again.
Mr.Rankin. Did he respond?
Mr.Curry. It is at 12:54. The dispatcher said "78" and he responded, he said, "You are in the Oak Cliff area, are you not?"
Seventy-eight responded and said, "Lancaster and 8," which would be in the central section of Oak Cliff.
The dispatcher said, "You will be at large for any emergency that comes in."
And he responded, "10-4," which means message received. And he would follow those instructions.
Mr.Rankin. Do you have an item there of a broadcast of a person who murdered Tippit?
Mr.Curry. We have apparently—a citizen came in on the radio and he said, "Somebody shot a police officer at 404 10th Street." Someone in the background said 78, squad 78, car No. 10. And the citizen said, "You get that?" and the dispatcher said, "78."
And there was no response and the citizen said, "Hello, police operator, did you get that?" Some other unknown voice came in and said, "510 East Jefferson."
Mr.Rankin. What time of the day?
Mr.Curry. This was about 1:15; 1:19 is the next time that shows up on the radio log. The dispatcher at 1:19 said, "The subject is running west on Jefferson from the location."
Citizen came back in on the radio and said, "From out here on 10th street, 500 block, the police officer just shot, I think he is dead."Dispatcher said, "10-4, we have the information."
The citizen using the radio remained off the radio.
Dispatcher to 15, he was the sergeant, said, "Did you receive the information of police officer shot?"
And he said, "10-4, but didn't that citizen say first he was on Jefferson and 10th and then Chesapeake?"
And he said, "Yes."
And he said, "Do they relate?"
And he said, "Yes, at Denver, 19 will be there shortly," that is a sergeant or a lieutenant.
Ninety-one came on and said, "Have a signal 19 involving a police officer at 400 block East 10th. The suspect last seen running west on Jefferson, no description at this time."
The dispatcher came in and said, "The suspect just passed 401 East Jefferson."
Dispatcher then says, "Give us the correct location on it, 85, we have three different locations."
Eighty-five says, "I haven't seen anything on Jefferson yet, 10-4, check, 491 East 10th at Denver."
Dispatcher repeated, "The subject has just passed 401 East Jefferson."
At 1:22 we have a broadcast here that says, "We have a description on the suspect here on Jefferson, last seen on the 300 block on East Jefferson, a white male, 30, about 5 feet 8, black hair, slender, wearing a white jacket, white shirt and dark slacks, armed with what he states unknown. Repeat the description."
Dispatcher said that to the squad. He says. "Wearing a white jacket believed to be a white shirt and dark slacks. What is his direction of travel on Jefferson?"
He said, "Travel west on Jefferson, last seen in the 401 West Jefferson, correction, it will be East Jefferson."
The dispatcher then said, "Pick up for investigation of aggravated assault on a police officer, a white male approximately 30, 5 feet 8, slender build, has black hair, white jacket, white shirt, dark trousers. Suspect has been seen running west on Jefferson from the 400 block of East Jefferson at 1:24."
Then they asked about the condition of the officer, and there was something about—the dispatcher did receive some information that there was a man pulled in there on West Davis driving a white Pontiac, a 1961 or 1962 station wagon with a prefix PE, saying he had a rifle laying in the street.
We have a citizen following in a car address unknown direction.
The dispatcher said, "Any unit near Gaston 3600 block, this is about a blood bank."
Then 279 comes in and says, "We believe the suspect on shooting this officer out here got his white jacket, believed he dumped it in this parking lot behind the service station at 400 block West, Jefferson across from Dudley House. He had a white jacket we believe this is it."
"You do not have a suspect, is that correct?"
"No, just the jacket lying on the ground."
There is some more conversation about blood going to Parkland.
"What was the description beside the white jacket?"
"White male, 30, 5-8 black hair, slender build, white shirt, white jacket, black trousers, going west on Jefferson from the 300 block."
Squad says, "This is Sergeant Jerry Hill." Says, "I am at 12th and Beckley now, have a man in the car with me that can identify the suspect if anybody gets one."
Mr.Rankin. Chief Curry, we were furnished a Commission Document No. 290, dated December 5, 1963, that purported to be a radio log for your department, and it did not have any item in it in regard to instruction to Officer Tippit to go to the Central Oak Cliff area.
Do you know why that would be true?
Mr.Curry. I don't know why it wasn't in that log except that these logs, after they are recorded, they are pretty difficult to try to take everything offof them, channel 1 and channel 2 is in on them and they spent many hours going over these and copying these.
This would be available and I listened to our recording.
Mr.Rankin. That is Exhibit 705 you are talking about?
Mr.Curry. That is right.
Mr.Rankin. So if there is a discrepancy between the two, are you satisfied that Exhibit 705 is correct?
Mr.Curry. Is the correct exhibit; yes.
Mr.Rankin. Commission Document No. 290 does say at the heading that most routine transmissions were left out for reasons of brevity.
Would that be any explanation?
Mr.Curry. Perhaps it could be, yes. Because these would have been routine broadcasts. The fact the squad was moving into this area because this is more or less normal procedure when we have incidents occurring of any magnitude, the squads immediately begin moving in to cover officers of the district.
Mr.Rankin. You were going to tell us about how it came to your attention about the moving of Lee Oswald to the jail from your place on Saturday?
Mr.Curry. To the county jail?
Mr.Rankin. Yes.
Mr.Curry. Yes, sir.
I asked Captain Fritz a time or two when he wanted to move Oswald, because this is left up to him. Whoever will be handling the case, I mean I don't enter in the transfer of prisoners. I don't ordinarily even know when they are going to be transferred.
Mr.Rankin. Why is that?
Mr.Curry. It is just a routine matter.
Mr.Rankin. Can you tell us is that involved quite a few times in your operations?
Mr.Curry. Yes, sir. Usually it is a daily transfer of prisoners, and usually the sheriff's office sends up there and picks them up on routine prisoners.
Mr.Rankin. Are there a number each day?
Mr.Curry. I would say perhaps anywhere from maybe none to 15 a day.
Mr.Rankin. When did you talk to Officer or Captain Fritz about this?
Mr.Curry. I think I talked to him some on Saturday, because the newspaper people or the news media kept asking me when are going to transfer him?
Mr.Rankin. That would be November 23?
Mr.Curry. Yes; and I said this I don't know because that would be left up to the men doing the interrogation. When they felt like they were finished with him and wanted to transfer him or when Sheriff Decker said, "We want the man."
Mr.Rankin. Did you have anything to do with his transfer then?
Mr.Curry. Other than to, I called Sheriff Decker on Sunday morning and he said, I told him and I think he had talked to Fritz prior to that time, too, and he told Fritz, he says, "Don't bring him down here until I get some security set up for him."
So, Sunday morning I talked to Sheriff Decker.
Mr.Rankin. Why didn't you do it at night?
Mr.Curry. This is not customary to transfer prisoners at night.