Mr.Stern. This is all people, not just outside members of the public?
Mr.Lawson. Any citizen that was trying to view the motorcade, they were to be kept from right directly over the President's car, if it was a bridge or an underpass.
Mr.Stern. What about the deployment of police on rooftops of buildings at any point along the route?
Mr.Lawson. We had—police were requested at points where I knew that the President would be out of the car for any length of time.
Mr.Stern. And where was that?
Mr.Lawson. At the Trade Mart and at the airport.
Mr.McCloy. May I interrupt at this point. During the course of the motorcade while the motorcade was in motion, no matter how slowly, you had no provision for anyone on the roofs?
Mr.Lawson. No, sir.
Mr.McCloy. Or no one to watch the windows?
Mr.Lawson. Oh, yes. The police along the area were to watch the crowds and their general area. The agents riding in the followup car as well as myself in the lead car were watching the crowds and the windows and the rooftops as we progressed.
Mr.McCloy. It was part of your routine duties when you were going through a street in any city, to look at the windows as well as the crowds?
Mr.Lawson. Yes, sir; and if the President's car slowed to such a point or the crowd ever pressed in to such a point that people are getting too close to the President, the agents always get out and go along the car.
Mr.Stern. Perhaps you had better describe the vehicles and passengers in the motorcade beginning with the pilot car and going, say, through the Vice Presidential followup car.
Mr.Lawson. At one time I could have probably listed them all by name.
Mr.Stern. No, not their names, but the vehicle order.
Mr.Lawson. The vehicle itself, yes sir.
Mr.Stern. And the agents, the number of agents.
Mr.Lawson. And the function of the vehicle.
Mr.Stern. And the function of the vehicle and the responsibility of the agents in the vehicle.
Mr.Lawson. Yes sir. This varies, but in a usual motorcade, as in this particular instance, there is what we call a pilot car. This is usually a local police car that precedes the motorcade some distance, depending on the crowd. It would usually precede it by at least a quarter of a mile. This is to see if there is any kind of a disturbance up ahead far enough so that we are able to take an alternate route if the need arises. It being a police car, it has radio communications with the whole network of the police and also the police at the stops, the ones we have just left and the particular function like the Trade Mart or airport that we are going to.
In this car ride a few command officers of the local police department, and it is their job to make sure that the traffic is stopped as it was planned to be, look out for any disturbances, and in general be a front guard for the motorcade.
Mr.McCloy. Do you have a communications system with the Secret Service agents for this pilot car?
Mr.Lawson. Yes, sir; because the next car in the motorcade is what we call a lead car and it is actually a rolling command car. We try to have a command officer from every jurisdiction of police with a radio net of their own in thatvehicle. Sometimes if you are in an area where there are State police and local police and sheriff's and quite a few jurisdictions, where it is a long motorcade and you are going through various counties you are not able to have a command officer of every jurisdiction in that.
But in Dallas the lead ear, the car that I was in directly ahead of the President was a police car, and of course it had a radio that was in contact with the pilot car and any other radio on the police net. In addition to that, I had a portable radio on the Secret Service White House network.
Mr.McCloy. Was there a Secret Service agent riding in the pilot car?
Mr.Lawson. No sir; there was not.
Mr.McCloy. The first Secret Service agentwas——
Mr.Lawson. In the lead car.
Mr.McCloy. Was in the lead car. I don't know whether you want to—I have got to leave. Are you going to ask why they didn't go down Main Street?
Mr.Stern. Yes.
Mr.McCloy. Take care of that. The suggestion was made yesterday—you are going to cover that?
(Discussion off the record.)
RepresentativeFord. I would like if I might to follow up with a question which you asked a minute ago on the record. As I recall your testimony, Mr. Lawson, you indicated that the police who were assigned along the route had the responsibility to check windows and the crowd. Is that what you indicated?
Mr.Lawson. And also the agents as they went by; yes sir. It wouldn't be just a police responsibility; no, sir.
RepresentativeFord. How did the police know they had that responsibility?
Mr.Lawson. In our police meetings, of which we had three or four listed in here, we talked about crowd control and watching the crowd, and of course the agents just do that anyway. That is part of their function. And in the newspaper accounts it said how watchful the police were going to be of all kinds of activity, and actually they requested public assistance, as I recall it, anyone that noticed anything unusual they had asked that they notify the police.
RepresentativeFord. When you meet with police officials, in this case Chief Curry, Sheriff Decker, and who else, is this clearly laid out that the members of their organization have the specific responsibility of checking windows? Do you followup to see whether this is actually put in writing to the members of the police force, and the Sheriff's department?
Mr.Lawson. No, sir; I do not followup to see if it was put in writing.
Mr.Dulles. You mean an external check don't you? You don't mean going through each building?
RepresentativeFord. No. As I understood it, policemen have the responsibility to check windows and to look at the crowd, and I was just wondering whether there is any followup to be sure that the chief of police and the sheriff or anybody else actually makes this specific communication to the people in their organizations.
Mr.Lawson. In this particular instance there was not. Sometimes on my own advances I have received copies of police directives. Sometimes this is covered and sometimes there are other directives. This is not normal though. It is just that the police say "Here is a copy of one of our orders." Sometimes it is the posting of police, sometimes it is that. In Berlin where I was assisting on an advance for President Kennedy's trip in June, we received all kinds of information of this type, even to the fact where the police had requested anyone to notify them of anyone that tried to gain entry into their room that didn't belong there, if it was a business office or if it was a private home or if all of a sudden they discovered they had a friend that they never knew they had before and all that. But this is not always done.
Mr.McCloy. I want to get it clear. In your presence, in the instructions to the police in Dallas, did you tell the police to keep their eye on windows as you went along?
Mr.Lawson. I cannot say definitely that I told the police to watch windows. I usually do. On this particular case I cannot say whether I definitely said that. I believe I did, but I would not swear to the fact that I said watch all the windows.
Mr.McCloy. I have heard it rumored that there was a general routine in the Secret Service that when you were going through in a motorcade or by car, that the problem of watching windows was so great that you didn't do it. It was only as you came to a stop that it was the standing instructions that then roofs should be watched and places of advantage would be inspected or looked at. Is that true?
Mr.Lawson. No, sir; the agents in the motorcade are to watch the route and the rooftops and the windows as they can. Of course there were thousands of windows there, over 20,000 I believe on that motorcade. But agents are supposed to watch as they go along.
RepresentativeFord. An advance agent such as yourself goes to talk with local police officials?
Mr.Lawson. Yes, sir.
RepresentativeFord. Do you have a checklist? Do you have a procedure in writing that you hand to a local law enforcement agent so that he is clear as to the responsibilities of himself and his people?
Mr.Lawson. No, sir; I have no checklist, although myself I have a number of things that I have marked down from past advances and seeing what other individuals do that I usually try to follow.
However, every situation is so different. Sometimes there are motorcades and sometimes there are not, and it just wouldn't fit every situation.
RepresentativeFord. But there is no specific list of instructions that the Secret Service gives to a local law enforcement agency?
Mr.Lawson. No.
RepresentativeFord. At the time of the Presidential visit?
Mr.Lawson. No.
RepresentativeFord. Do you think that it would be helpful?
Mr.Lawson. It would be helpful in a general way. And it could be augmented to fit the situation.
RepresentativeFord. In other words, if you had general instructions you could give those to the local law enforcement people, and as you say, for special circumstances, or different circumstances, you could augment them at the scene?
Mr.Lawson. I believe it would be helpful. For example, I know that New York police have, because we were up there so often, and I just returned from there yesterday, they have a checklist of their own in the police meetings with the Secret Service that they go over, what time the arrival is, where he is going to be met, is it a motorcade, is it a helicopter, et cetera. But still there are many more things that should be in there.
RepresentativeFord. But I would think for every Presidential visit there would be certain mandatory things that would have to be done, areas of responsibility of Federal officials, areas of responsibility for local officials.
Mr.Lawson. Yes, sir.
RepresentativeFord. Such a memorandum or checklist I should think would be helpful in defining the areas of responsibility, being certain that there is no misunderstanding as to whose responsibility it is for A, B, C, or D operations.
Mr.Lawson. I agree.
Mr.Stern. Were any arrangements made to inspect buildings along the parade route?
Mr.Lawson. No, sir; other than those buildings that we were stopping at.
Mr.Stern. And this would be?
Mr.Lawson. The Trade Mart.
Mr.Stern. And Love Field?
Mr.Lawson. Yes, sir.
Mr.Dulles. Is it recognized in your business, if it is a fact, that a building that affords a window that looks down parallel with the motorcade is an unusually vulnerable point? Do you get the trend of my question?
Mr.McCloy. Parallel rather that at right angles?
Mr.Dulles. Yes.
Mr.Lawson. I know that there are some windows that are more vulnerable than others, let's say.
Mr.Dulles. That give a more vulnerable point of attack?
Mr.Lawson. Yes, sir; if you were going in a motorcade at 50 or 60 miles an hour and then all of sudden there was some reason why something narrowed down and you had to slow up or you knew there was going to be a big crowd here and the President would probably slow his vehicle like he usually did for big crowds and stand up and wave, then you would be more concerned about those windows in that area than other areas. This motorcade to my knowledge, we went 15 or 20 miles an hour through most of it except the downtown section at about 7 or 10.
Mr.McCloy. 10 or 7 did you say?
Mr.Lawson. Yes, sir; 7 to 10 miles an hour.
Mr.Dulles. In this case I assume that if anyone had been looking at windows, the car that would have seen the rifle and the man would have been a car several cars back from the President's car, is that not correct?
Mr.McCloy. It might have been the other.
RepresentativeFord. The testimony of one of these young men that we had, if it is accurate, I would have thought that the lead car might have seen the Book Depository.
Mr.Stern. We will hear testimony from another passenger in the lead car, Mr. Sorrels, who was in charge of the Dallas Secret Service Office, that as the car turned from Houston onto Elm, he saw people in the windows of the School Book Depository Building. He cannot recall seeing anyone on the sixth floor, and it is more likely that he saw people on the fifth floor from his descriptions. He saw some Negro employees. But he could see from the lead car people in the Book Depository Building as it came in view around the corner.
Mr.McCloy. Did you see anybody in the School Book Depository?
Mr.Lawson. No, sir; at this point just as we started around that corner I asked Chief Curry if it was not true that we were probably 5 minutes from the Trade Mart, and it is quite usual to make a radio call to your next point of stop that you are 5 minutes away. Therefore right about the time we turned that corner and were a little ways past it, I am sure I was speaking on the radio, because the White House Communications Agency has about the time I gave the 5 minutes away warning signal, and within seconds after that the shots were fired.
RepresentativeFord. As you came or as the lead car came down HoustonStreet——
Mr.Lawson. Yes, sir.
RepresentativeFord. You were facing the Texas School Depository?
Mr.Lawson. Right.
RepresentativeFord. Did you look at or scan that building?
Mr.Lawson. I do not, no, because part of my job is to look backwards at the President's car. The speed of the motorcade is controlled by the President's car, unless is it is an emergency situation. If he stands up and is waving at the crowd and there are quite a few crowds then, of course, the car goes slower. If the density of the crowd is quite scarce or there is a time factor why you are going faster. So the person in the lead car in this rolling command car usually keeps turning around and watching the President's car. If his car comes up on our bumper that means we are not going fast enough and we should go faster, and you tell the command officer to call the motorcycles, the pilot car, et cetera, to move out faster. If you notice that his car is dropping back from you, that means their car wants to go slower and you do the same thing in reverse. So I was watching the crowds along the sides, requesting Chief Curry to move motorcycles up or back, depending on the crowd, move them up towards the President's car because at certain times people were almost out to the car, and to use them as kind of a wedge. Other times they were able to drop back or go forward, so that I was looking back a good deal of the time, watching his car, watching the sides, watching the crowds, giving advice or asking advice from the Chief and also looking ahead to the known hazards like overpasses, underpasses, railroads, et cetera.
RepresentativeFord. But as the lead car turned from Main onto Houston and proceeded toward Elm, you were more preoccupied with looking at the President?
Mr.Lawson. I don't know whether I was looking sideways or backwards then, but I do recall noticing the Book Depository Building and that corner and then deciding that we must be about 5 minutes away, and asking Chief Curry if this was not so and then making a radio broadcast.
RepresentativeFord. So as you drove down Houston Street, you didn't have an opportunity to look at the Texas School Depository?
Mr.Lawson. I may have, but I don't remember if I saw this. I was doing so many things all at once.
RepresentativeFord. What was Sorrels' responsibility at this point?
Mr.Lawson. His responsibility would be again to watch the crowds and the windows a little bit more than I because it was my responsibility to be watching the Presidential car.
Mr.Stern. He was sitting in the rear right, was he not?
Mr.Lawson. Yes, sir; and I was in the right front.
RepresentativeFord. He didn't have the responsibility of looking back like you did?
Mr.Lawson. Not as much as I would have; no, sir.
RepresentativeFord. In light of the problem of trying to have individuals in numerous buildings, inspecting the buildings and so forth, is it desirable to have more people in another car ahead of the lead car for the purpose of scanning buildings?
Mr.Lawson. Giving a personal opinion now, I would say that that would be a good factor. However, if someone stayed back from the window until you went by and then stuck his gun out the window, why it might not be as good.
RepresentativeFord. It wouldn't be any worse.
Mr.Lawson. No, sir; but if they did see something that wasn't a likely occurrence, then they could broadcast over the radio stop the President or turn right or turn left.
RepresentativeFord. But as I understand your responsibilities in the lead car, it doesn't appear that you had an opportunity to do the scanning?
Mr.Lawson. No, sir.
RepresentativeFord. Which was necessary.
Mr.Lawson. No, sir; I would not.
RepresentativeFord. So you are really left up to one individual in the lead car in the Secret Service for that purpose?
Mr.Lawson. Yes.
RepresentativeFord. I raise the question whether that is adequate for the overall purpose.
Mr.Smith. Sir, I don't want to interfere with the procedures but could I ask a question off the record?
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr.McCloy. I think you might go on the record with this. There has been some question as to whether we are referring directly only to the lead car or whether to all the personnel in the cavalcade. I gather, Mr. Ford, you were referring to the personnel in the lead car as distinguished from the other Secret Service personnel and other police in the motorcade as a whole?
RepresentativeFord. That is correct. I am cognizant of the fact we have a followup car. What are the responsibilities of those in the followup car?
Mr.McCloy. By followup car do you mean the President's car because there will be Secret Service men in the President's car too?
RepresentativeFord. There was only one on this occasion, or two, the driver and Mr. Kellerman. The driver was certainly preoccupied, and as I remember Mr. Kellerman's testimony, he was so engaged he didn't have an opportunity to do the kind of scanning that would appear to be necessary. So whatever scanning there was done by either the lead car or the Presidential car or the followup car primarily had to be done by the people in the followup car. Is that a fair analysis?
Mr.Lawson. I don't recall if you mentioned the pilot car, but they would have had an opportunity in the pilot car to do some scanning.
RepresentativeFord. But there are no Secret Service people there.
Mr.Lawson. No Secret Service people in that one.
Mr.McCloy. There would be Secret Service men in the Vice Presidential car, and of course there is the Secret Service car that follows the Presidential car, all through the route there are interspersed Secret Service men.
Mr.Dulles. It must have been the third or fourth or fifth car in the motorcade that was right opposite the window at the time the assassin put the rifle well out of the window and shot.
Mr.McCloy. Why do you say that?
Mr.Dulles. The shooting took place when the President's car was somewhere here (indicating to photograph of scene). It had made the turn, you see. Here is the building. Now there is the window up here roughly. He didn't shoot here. They went around the turn and were down here. There was a barricade there. There was something there that obstructed the view you will remember.
Mr.McCloy. That is the sign here like this.
Mr.Dulles. It would be down that far.
Mr.McCloy. It might have been there.
Mr.Dulles. As close as that? Whatever it was, the car that was right opposite the window and going in this direction at that time must have been the fourth or fifth car—the car which had the best view of the assassination. You wouldn't be looking I shouldn't think, if you were in a car here, you wouldn't be looking back there. You would be looking off here and off here for protection.
I should think that car in this strange situation, where he was shooting right down the street—isn't that correct? I don't know if you have ever followed that up. I don't know what car it is. It is some car along here, though, that would have been right opposite the window at the time the shooting took place, not one of the lead cars or the President's car.
Mr.Stern. By these cars you mean,sir——
Mr.Dulles. In the motorcade. Some of these down here. It might have been even the wire services or the press cars. I don't know how many cars but I think from our photographs we ought to be able to identify that.
RepresentativeFord. A man named Jackson who was a photographer in one of the cars with photographers is an individual who identified the fact that somebody was in that window with a rifle as I recall.
Mr.Dulles. He was in one of the press cars was he?
RepresentativeFord. Yes.
Mr.Dulles. The wire service car is the seventh car including the lead police vehicle. Well, the lead car, if you count the lead car, six, the sixth car.
RepresentativeFord. He testified as I recall that the car in which he was—was halfway down the block between Main and Elm at the time that he looked up and saw the building and saw people in windows.
Mr.Dulles. This is Houston and this is Elm. Houston and Elm isn't it, not Main. Main and Elm, or yes.
RepresentativeFord. However, the time span between the time that the lead car, the President's car and the followup car came down Houston and turned down Elm is a relatively short period of time.
Mr.Lawson. Yes, sir.
Mr.McCloy. By the way, at what speed were you going as you came around the turn and into Elm Street? You said 7 to 10 downtown. Would it be about the same speed there?
Mr.Lawson. I imagine it was a little faster at this time, sir, because the downtown section where it was quite heavily populated with people watching the motorcade, we had been out of that for a while before we got to the Houston Street turn. So we were probably back up to perhaps 12 or 15 miles an hour by then.
Mr.McCloy. But you would have had to slow up a bit coming around the curve.
Mr.Lawson. Yes, sir.
Mr.Stern. Mr. Lawson, can you tell us why you didn't plan the motorcade so that it went straight down Main Street to turn right on to the entrance to the freeway instead of taking this dogleg on Houston and Elm?
Mr.Dulles. Jerry, will you take over.
RepresentativeFord. Will you proceed please, Mr. Stern?
Mr.Stern. Yes.
Mr.Lawson. You mean why we didn't come straight down Main Street to the Stemmons Freeway?
Mr.Stern. Right.
Mr.Lawson. Because it is my understanding there isn't any entrance to the freeway on Main Street.
Mr.Stern. But you don't yourself recall now or do you?
Mr.Lawson. Yes, I was told that there wasn't any entrance that way, and I myself once when I went to the Trade Mart, not knowing that there was any entrance to it, went down Main Street. You must enter the freeway going in the direction that we wanted to go from the Elm Street extension.
Mr.Stern. When you went down Main Street you found that you could not get on to the entrance to the Stemmons Freeway?
Mr.Lawson. Going the direction on the freeway towards the Trade Mart, that is correct.
Mr.Stern. Which is the direction the motorcade was to go?
Mr.Lawson. Was to go; yes, sir.
Mr.Stern. Have you ever had occasion to provide for building checks along a motorcade route when you were doing an advance, or is it just never done? This is as of the time of Dallas.
Mr.Lawson. I have never had an advance where I had buildings checked on our route.
Mr.Stern. It is not aquestion——
Mr.Lawson. On a moving route.
Mr.Stern. It is not a question of your instructions? You could if you wanted to, I take it? It is just a matter of your discretion and your training, is that correct?
Mr.Lawson. I don't believe it is discretion. It is just that to my knowledge only inaugurations or when a foreign president or king comes to Washington, like that where it is a motorcade route known practically for years in advance of how you are going to go do we check, start out with enough men, enough time ahead of time to check the whole route up to that time.
Mr.Dulles. Is there any practice of going to the superintendent of a building and putting any responsibility on him to see that strangers don't come into the building at that time, or assuming any responsibility at all with respect to the inmates of the building? I don't know what the practices are.
Mr.Lawson. As I stated, sir, there was for inaugurations here in Washington—we have done building surveys of buildings that overlook the White House, that overlook the grounds, that overlook areas where the President goes quite often or where he might be out or something like that. Yes, sir; we keep those quite up to date. Out on a trip away from Washington, I have never requested building superintendents to do this. This was not the usual practice.
Mr.Smith. May I ask a question there, sir. Is any of that information that you just gave the type of thing that is not supposed to be known publicly? I just don't know how necessary this is to the record, I mean about checking the buildings around the White House and so on. Is there anything about that that is sensitive?
Mr.Lawson. I would assume that most of the people thought that we did.
RepresentativeFord. I think that is the general impression.
Mr.Lawson. Yes, sir.
Mr.Smith. I can check on that. If there is something in there I might want to come back on.
RepresentativeFord. I think as far as we are concerned if you do check on it and find that it is something that ought to be left off the record we could certainly do so.
Mr.Dulles. It might be declassified as a whole or lower the classification, so I think it is well to put in the record what you have said, that this part of the record should be reviewed by the Secret Service, and if it is a security matter I think they ought to raise it. I don't think we want to ever disclose anything that the responsible agency thinks would imperil the life of any President.
Mr.Smith. I have in mind what he said and I will check on it right away. Unless I come back and make some point about it, why you can rest assured that there will be no problem.
RepresentativeFord. Will you call the attention of the Commission to what you find out, whether it should or should not be in the record?
Mr.Smith. Yes, I will. May I tell Mr. Stern?
RepresentativeFord. Surely.
Mr.Stern. Were you aware of a suggestion that a vehicle with representatives of the Dallas homicide squad be in the motorcade, I believes behind the Vice President's car, a decision that was changed just before November 22?
Can you tell us anything about that?
Mr.Lawson. I believe I recall some mention of them asking—I don't remember if they asked if there should be a car or not but I believe there was some mention that there be a car, that they could have a car in the back there. This was not usual procedure. In New York it is, and on foreign trips it is.
Mr.Dulles. I understood that car was to be between the lead car I think and the President's car, was it not, or is it between—no, between the lead car and the President's car.
Mr.Stern. I haven't yet seen the transcript of yesterday's session, sir, and I am not quite sure.
RepresentativeFord. My recollection is that it was to follow the President's car, either behind the followup car or behind the Vice President's car.
Mr.Dulles. We can check that. It is somewhere in there. I have a feeling it was ahead of the President's car but I may be wrong.
Mr.Stern. I understand we have been advised that at one point there was such an arrangement and that this was changed, and that Captain Fritz, the head of the Homicide Division, who was to ride in that car, went instead at someone's request to the Trade Mart where he was to participate in security at the speaker's table. Do you know anything about that?
Mr.Lawson. I remember it being mentioned. Whether it was a request or whether they had already laid it on I do not know, but I do remember it being mentioned that they could have a car if it was so desired.
Mr.Stern. If they desired?
Mr.Lawson. I don't recall if it was that they would put it in if we wanted it or if they said that they definitely would put it in or what.
But it was mentioned, and I hadn't thought of this since. That is why I am a little hazy on it. But I don't know even who cancelled it, whether they did or whether we had just said well it is not the normal procedure so that they did. But as far as Captain Fritz going to the Trade Mart, I don't know anything about that.
Mr.Stern. But you did say, I take it, it is normal procedure in New York?
Mr.Lawson. In New York, New York has a special squad of people. One of their main functions is protection of foreign dignitaries when they come to visit the U.N. or for any other reason. These people areused——
Mr.Dulles. Do we give more protection to foreign dignitaries than we do to our own Chief of State?
Mr.Lawson. Is that a question for me?
Mr.Dulles. That is a question.
Mr.Lawson. No, sir; I don't believe we do. I don't believe the security, the advance security arrangements, are quite as stringent.
Mr.Stern. This New York procedure is something you have worked out with the New York authorities?
Mr.Lawson. I am not aware of the policy arrangements that were made. I do know that there is a detective car used in New York quite often filled with this special detail of men.
Mr.Stern. Do they have a special responsibility in the motorcade?
Mr.Lawson. They act as Secret Service agents act in the motorcade. They help out if there is a stop and we need extra men and so forth. But I am not aware of why they are there. It wasn't my decision that they be there.
Mr.Dulles. Could I ask one question right there. Whose duty is it, whose responsibility is it to decide how many of these cars will be in the motorcade, how many protective cars let me say? I am not speaking of cars for dignitaries orpress and so forth, but how many protective cars are in a motorcade? Does the Secret Service decide that or do the local police decide it to some extent or do you decide it in consultation?
Mr.Lawson. We have our usual motorcade, and usually it is in consultation. They take our recommendations quite frankly.
Mr.Dulles. Have you been giving any consideration to reviewing that procedure to see whether the existing procedure is the best from the protective angle?
Have you any suggestions to give us on that?
Mr.Lawson. I believe that the chief's office is, but I am not in a position to say what they are going to do.
Mr.Dulles. I think it would be interesting if that was being done. Maybe it should be done, just to have a good look at it. If you could advise us as to whether that is under consideration, it might be helpful.
RepresentativeFord. I think it was my understanding that the Treasury Department is making a review of this whole setup, are they not?
Mr.Smith. Yes, I understand so. I understand that we have discussed with the Chief Justice an arrangement, sort of a question and answer thing to begin with on this because of the sensitive nature of this information, to see if adequate information for your purposes can be developed that way, and then at that point or at some point in the future it will be decided how this question of the review and new procedures will be handled. That is my understanding of it.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr.Smith. I am Fred B. Smith, Deputy General Counsel of the Treasury Department.
RepresentativeFord. Will you stand and be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
Mr.Smith. I do.
Mr.Dulles. I wonder if the witness would just repeat.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr.Stern. On the record.
RepresentativeFord. Would you repeat what you indicated a moment ago, Mr. Smith?
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir; I have been informed that an arrangement was worked out with the Chief Justice with respect to the question of improving procedures for the protection of the President that certain information would be provided in the form of questions and answers, and that after that procedure had been fulfilled, consideration would be given as to such questions as the necessity of further testimony on such questions and appropriate security arrangements with respect to such information.
This is on hearsay. I haven't been involved in that myself. I would like to ask Mr. Stern if that is in accordance with his understanding.
Mr.Stern. It is my understanding.
Mr.Dulles. If it is appropriate I suggest that maybe this question of the number of protective cars in a motorcade of this nature might be one of the questions you would be willing to consider, or whoever is considering this matter would be willing to include among the subjects of consideration.
RepresentativeFord. Will you proceed, Mr. Stern.
Mr.Stern. I would like to finish on this special New York practice with you, Mr. Lawson. If an incident were to occur during a motorcade in New York, is it your understanding that the responsibility of these New York officials, detectives, would be to investigate the incident or to stay with the motorcade as the Secret Service would?
Mr.Lawson. I am afraid I couldn't answer that. I don't know.
Mr.Stern. Is there something special about the New York circumstances that makes it desirable to have these additional detectives that you don't ordinarily have?
Mr.Lawson. Again I don't know. I conceive myself personally—where we go through quite often—I believe there are more people in the State of New York than there are in Billings, Mont., and you might have more of a chanceof something occurring in New York. But again I don't know why it is in New York and not usual in other places.
Mr.Stern. Was the organization of the motorcade in Dallas typical, apart from New York?
Mr.Lawson. Yes. Quite typical.
Mr.Stern. Would it be the same in Billings, Mont., or would you have additional strength in the motorcade in Dallas?
Mr.Lawson. As far as escorting people, there were more people in Dallas.
Mr.Stern. More celebrities?
Mr.Lawson. No; by escorting people I meant motorcycles or something like that. Again it depends on where you are, even if they have motorcycles or how many they have. But the makeup of the motorcade vehicles itself, again depending on who is coming and how many cars you have is pretty generally the same. A pilot car, a lead car, the President's car, motorcycles if you have them, some motorcycles if you have them along the side of the motorcade to help keep it intact or if it gets split up as it has on occasion to be able to catch them up and rear vehicles to keep them from passing the motorcade, et cetera.
Mr.Stern. And the one Presidential followup car.
Mr.Lawson. And the Secret Service followup car; yes, sir. This was my first movement with the President and the Vice President all at the same time. That was quite out of the ordinary.
Mr.Stern. And there you added a Vice-Presidential followup car?
Mr.Lawson. Yes, sir.
Mr.Stern. Performing the same function as the Presidential followup?
Mr.Lawson. That is correct.
Mr.Stern. But apart from the motorcycles, I take it if you had been in Billings, Mont., the organization of the motorcade would have been the same; is that correct?
Mr.Lawson. Just about the same; yes, sir.
Mr.Stern. I would like to touch briefly on the selection of the Trade Mart and the security measures there, having in mind that your three memorandums cover this in great detail. If you could just highlight and indicate if in any respect your memorandums are inaccurate or incomplete. The record will rely primarily on your memorandums.
Mr.Lawson. I don't know of any incorrectness in it. There might be.
Mr.Stern. Or any detail that you would want to add?
Mr.Lawson. No; I can't. If you have some specific questions.
Mr.Stern. Why don't you just summarize then how the Trade Mart was selected, your participation in it, the consideration of alternatives, the decision ultimately to use the Trade Mart, whether you had any particular preference between the Trade Mart and the other building that was considered. Take that part of it first.
Mr.Lawson. Yes, sir. The morning after we arrived in Dallas, late in the morning, we, Mr. Sorrels and Mr. Puterbaugh and myself and another agent from Dallas, Agent Stewart, went to Mr. Cullum's office who is the president of the Dallas Chamber of Commerce, a local businessman who was acting as subcommittee chairman I guess for the local host committee.
Mr.Stern. I don't think we need this much detail because we have your memorandum. If you could just tell us in general terms where you went and the considerations.
Mr.Lawson. Some of us went to Mr. Cullum's office and after talking with him there for a while we went to the Trade Mart, met with representatives of the Trade Mart, the general manager of the Trade Mart, and were shown generally around the building, told how they usually handled luncheons or dinners or dances that are held there.
Mr.Stern. Were there particular security problems that the Trade Mart presented?
Mr.Lawson. There were balconies there and also it was a building that would be used by other people that day. However, this is somewhat good because it wasn't exactly a public building where anyone could wander in. The lessees of the showrooms there or their customers have to be checked in. You either have to be a lessee or a bona fide customer of a showroom in order to even getin the building. They have kind of a semisecurity of their own that way. So it was good in that respect. There were hanging bridges and balconies, as I have said, side corridors and what not. After we left there, we went to the Women's Building at the fairgrounds, to look that over, and in this particular case the food would have had to have been brought in because there isn't any kitchen there, which was a plus at the Trade Mart. They had a regular cafeteria there and a catering service, which the Women's Building didn't have. The Women's Building is on one floor, quite low ceilinged, and the press coverage that is usually quite in evidence when the President is anywhere, both from the traveling press with him and the local press would have required their usual press coverage, and it would not have been as good in the Women's Building, because of the low ceilings.
They usually like to be up at least as high as the President or higher, 1, 2, or 3 feet. So we could put them in a balcony at the Trade Mart but we could not do so, at least get them any higher because of the low roof at the Women's Building. There were numerous columns in the Women's Building that would have blocked everybody's view of the people at the head dinner table, guests, and the guests there. So there were pluses and minuses for both buildings, and I so informed people in Washington and Mr. Puterbaugh informed people in Washington also.
RepresentativeFord. Who made the decision as to the Trade Mart or the Women's Building at the fairgrounds?
Mr.Lawson. That was made in Washington, sir.
RepresentativeFord. By whom, do you know?
Mr.Lawson. I am assuming by the White House. I know that Mr. Puterbaugh was in contact with the National Democratic Headquarters people, and they were in contact with the White House and with the various groups down in Texas, the Governor's office as well. When the decision was finally made, we were told that it had been made but not to tell anyone yet because the announcement would come probably from the Governor's office.
RepresentativeFord. Do you make a report in writing in this kind of a situation, the relative advantages and disadvantages of the two buildings?
Mr.Lawson. No, sir.
RepresentativeFord. From a security point of view?
Mr.Lawson. No, sir.
RepresentativeFord. How do the people in Washington make the decisions then?
Mr.Lawson. Mr. Puterbaugh told the people he was in contact with and I told Mr. Behn's office what I saw.
Mr.Stern. Who is Mr. Behn?
Mr.Lawson. Mr. Behn is the agent in charge of the White House detail. What I saw in both buildings. As I say the decision was made back here in Washington.
RepresentativeFord. You summarized your views on this kind of a situation to Mr. Behn?
Mr.Lawson. Yes, sir.
RepresentativeFord. Who is your superior. By telephone, not in writing?
Mr.Lawson. No, sir.
RepresentativeFord. Is this the case in all instances?
Mr.Lawson. Well, it usually doesn't happen. Usually I know when you are going some place if the function is to be at the Statler Hotel or something like that.
RepresentativeFord. Do you know whether or not Mr. Behn made any recommendations on this?
Mr.Lawson. I have no idea.
RepresentativeFord. You gave him your observations and your recommendations?
Mr.Lawson. I don't know if I gave it to him. I gave his office. Now there were at that time two assistants.
RepresentativeFord. Did you make a recommendation one over the other?
Mr.Lawson. No; I did not. I said that I was sure we could effectively handleboth situations. Again the motorcade was to be taken into consideration also. If you went to the Trade Mart you would have certain ways to go and if you went to the Women's Building you would have certain ways to go. And so they had to decide, someone had to decide whether they wanted the Trade Mart or certain motorcade specifications also, in the 45 minute time lapse.
Mr.Stern. On the basis of your experience, if you had had a strong preference from a security point of view for one building over the other do you think that would have been followed in this case?
Mr.Lawson. I could have only told them what I thought, and how much weight it would have had I don't know.
Mr.Stern. Can you tell us roughly the total number of police, sheriff's office officials, and Secret Service agents that were engaged in protecting the President in Dallas and break them down if you can as between people at the Trade Mart, people on the motorcade route, people at Love Field?
Mr.Lawson. I can give you what I was told was going to—that the police were going to provide but I won't be able to tell you exactly what they did provide, and also inform you that I was told that certain police were going to be shifted from one spot to another. I understood that as we went by a certain part of the motorcade some of those police then would be shifted perhaps over to the motorcade route on the way back in the intervening 1½ or 2 hours that would still elapse. And I have that in my report if I can turn to it.
Mr.Stern. Yes; why don't you tell us in total numbers at each location.
Mr.Lawson. But again I cannot tell you if these police figures, being the ones that they gave me, show that these are the same amount of men that were shifted or if these are separate men, because they were going to use part on the motorcade and shift them to another spot.
Now, whether that would double it or what I do not know. At the Trade Mart 108, and I believe this includes out in the parking lots and on there. That doesn't mean they were inside the Trade Mart. Along the Route 90. And escorts 20. Love Field 55, cruising 100.
Mr.Stern. Cruising?
Mr.Lawson. Chief Curry said that naturally they have the rest of the city to protect and we can't go in and take every policeman that they have so that someone knows that all the police are going to be involved and it would be easier to commit certain crimes. But in addition to his regular police coverage of police cars throughout the city, there were also going to be some other police cars fairly close to our motorcade area, so that they could be called in if they had to be.
Mr.Stern. I see.
Mr.Lawson. Detectives, 40; department of public safety uniformed, 40; rangers, 5; plainclothes, 16; Dallas County Sheriff Department, 14; fire department, 26; the White House detail agents, 20; agents from the Vice President's detail, 4; agents from the Dallas office, 4.
Mr.Stern. So there were 28 Secret Service agents involved?
Mr.Lawson. Yes, sir.
Mr.Stern. At the various locations. Do you know whether the Dallas police who were used were full-time policemen or were auxiliary policemen?
Mr.Lawson. I do not know.
Mr.Dulles. Do you happen to know the circumstances under which there were some certain changes made as to the location of the motorcycle escort that went close to the President's car?
Mr.Lawson. I know that their position varied, depending on the crowds.
Mr.Dulles. No, I mean apart from that, apart from the crowd situation do you recall that any orders were given by or on behalf of the President with regard to the location of those motorcycles that were particularly attached to his car?
Mr.Lawson. Not specifically at this instance orders from him. Just what I know to be the case from other advances, that unless it is necessary, it was my understanding that he did not like a lot of motorcycles surrounding the car. That is why we had four just back of the President's car, so that they could come up and intercept anyone running out from the sides easily, or we could call the other motorcycles back to him if we had to.
But if there are a lot of motorcycles around the President's car, I know for a fact that he can't hear the people that are with him in the car talking back and forth, and there were other considerations I believe why he did not want them completely surrounding his car.
Mr.Stern. Can you summarize for us briefly the security arrangements at Love Field?
Mr.Dulles. Could I ask one question about the car before we get to Love Field. There has been testimony here that the back seat, the seat in which the President and Mrs. Kennedy had sat, could be raised or lowered I believe by the President himself, could be raised so he could get a better view of the surrounding people, and then it could be lowered and put in a normal position. Do you know anything about that or how that mechanism worked and who worked it?
Mr.Lawson. No, sir; I am not familiar with his car except for the fact that I know that you can raise or lower the seat. Now whether that is done by him or in the front seat, we do have people that would be competent to tell you that, however.
Mr.Dulles. You don't know whether that seat was raised at this particular time?
Mr.Lawson. No, sir.
Mr.Dulles. As the carwent——
Mr.Lawson. I don't believe it would have been starting out.
Mr.Dulles. I was talking about it at the time of the shooting.
Mr.Lawson. No, sir; I have no idea.
Mr.Stern. Could you now just very briefly and generally summarize the security arrangements at Love Field and your participation in them. Were they under your control and supervision?
Mr.Lawson. Yes, sir; they were under my control and supervision. We held our police meeting at the airport last because of problems involved in finding an area big enough for his motorcade to start and the planes to park and so forth. This was not actually resolved until the day before he arrived, and that is why the police meeting was held at that point quite late. But arrangements were made to have the general public contained behind a chain link fence which is there anyway, and any overflow general public to be in a parking lot a little ways further away from the President, if there was not enough room behind this chain link fence. Police were along both of these fences to keep the people in their place.
There were two service roads which came in between these two general public areas. We closed off one and used the other because it was the only service road that most of the wings from the Dallas Air Terminal were able to use, catering trucks going together, airplanes, mechanics and people being ferried, crews being ferried and so forth so we couldn't cut it off directly.
However, these roads were to be shut off when his plane touched down, and kept shut off until after his motorcade departed inward, and then they were to be used again while we were gone and then just before we returned to the airport they were to be shut off again.
Mr.Stern. What about police on buildings?
Mr.Lawson. Police were requested on the wing of the air terminal that came out closest to where he would stop, and police were requested to be on the air cargo building to the rear of this crowd area, which is a little higher than the small building, the customs building. Any policeman on the air cargo building would be able to control anybody on the roof at the customs building.
Mr.Stern. Were these police stationed to watch the crowd, to watch persons who might be on the roofs of these buildings, to watch persons who might be in these buildings? What was their function?
Mr.Lawson. The police on the building tops were to make sure that no unauthorized people were on the building tops, and to watch generally anything else that they could watch, that they were keeping their building top clear. And there were police along the fences to watch the crowd and to keep the people from coming onto the field who were not supposed to. There were detectives to be assigned throughout the crowd, to mingle with the crowd so that the people in the crowd would not know they were detectives.
Mr.Stern. Was there any particular check of offices inside the buildingswhich might present a vantage point overlooking the place where the President was to land and be received?
Mr.Lawson. No, sir.
Mr.Stern. Were there such overlooking places?
Mr.Lawson. There wouldn't have been except in a certain wing way up to the right of where he landed, quite a ways away.
There wasn't any building directly in front on the side where he would come off the plane and walk down. There would be a building to his right at the very end of a wing that came out, and there was police on that. The crowd behind the fences would go over to the customs building, and no one would be able to see out of this one-story customs building. And behind that was the air cargo building where a policeman was requested on top. The police were then also requested all the way along our exit route along the parking lots and the runways as we went out of the airport and the motorcycle escort vehicles were waiting down closer to where we made our exit, again because of the room factor.
Mr.Stern. Did you confer with Air Force representatives who had responsibility for the President's plane and the Vice President's plane?
Mr.Lawson. Yes, sir. I learned that they had been in for a general meeting of their own the morning of the 13th that I had not been aware of, but because of the Presidential trips the week before he came to Dallas, he went to Maryland and he went to New York and he went to a couple places in Florida, they were not able to send someone out to help with setting up the airport as soon as was usual.
And because of a personal problem, the one that was to arrive on Wednesday morning, didn't arrive until Wednesday evening. I was quite certain that the area that we were being provided by the local airport was not going to be sufficient for our motorcade formation, the parking of three jet planes and so forth. But being a layman, I couldn't really impress them that this was so. But when the Air Force people did come in, they agreed that as set up it would not work, and Mr. Sorrels and the assistant airport director were able to get some extra space from a couple of companies nearby there, and it was able to be worked out, still really not enough room but it was adequate.
Mr.Stern. Ultimate responsibility for determining those arrangements—whether those arrangements are adequate is with the Air Force, is that right?
Mr.Lawson. I don't really believe I understand your question. Would you make it again please?
Mr.Stern. You were concerned that the arrangements were not adequate.
Mr.Lawson. Yes.
Mr.Stern. But you had to have the Air Force recommendation to straighten things out with the local authorities?
Mr.Lawson. Well, I know the size of the planes because I have the dimensions of them that I take with me on a trip, and other things, and also from past experience. However, they make measurements and they know their own FAA rules, Air Force rules as to how close you can park jet planes to one another, what the turning radiuses are and so forth, so I was certain that the room that we had been provided wasn't enough, but I was also quite certain that when the Air Force got there, they would bear me out, which was true.
Mr.Stern. If the Air Force is satisfied with the arrangements though, is that the end of it?
Mr.Lawson. Only for certain things. They would say if they definitely had enough room to park, how they would be parked, how they would come in, how they would go out and so forth. But again final security responsibility would be up to us. If it is an area where you can't possibly fit the press area in, the motorcade can't line up, the people can't come out without creating a lot of confusion so that you can't tell what is going on, then it delves into security, because the more confusion you have the worse off you are security-wise.
Mr.Stern. I think we might touch briefly on press arrangements. Will you tell us, if you know, how the final arrangements for the President's visit were announced, and particularly the motorcade route.
Mr.Lawson. I know from reading in the paper how it was announced but I do not know who announced it. I believe it appeared in the Tuesday morning paper. That would have been the 19th I believe. There was quite a bit ofspeculation before that perhaps the motorcade would go here and perhaps the motorcade would go there, but I believe that the one that was finally used was put in the paper on Tuesday morning, the 19th from my recollection. Let me make sure that Tuesday is the 19th.
Mr.Stern. It is the 19th. Had there been a meeting on the 18th at which this was considered?
Mr.Lawson. Yes, sir; there was a meeting late in the afternoon of the 18th, in a private club in Dallas that I arrived at late. The meeting was called primarily as I understand it because of the various political groups that wanted certain things, and what Washington wanted, and there were various problems to work out as to who got tickets, who sat at the head table, who rode in what cars and so forth. And the local host committee had designated a certain individual to be their representative there, and then these other groups also had people represented. Mr. Puterbaugh, for example, the liaison man that went with me from Washington, was there. And I had just come from going over the route with the police earlier that afternoon, and I told them as a point of information that this was the route as we had it now, unless it was changed later.
RepresentativeFord. The followingmorning——
Mr.Lawson. The following morning.
RepresentativeFord. It was announced in the newspapers?
Mr.Lawson. Yes, sir.
Mr.Dulles. It was Tuesday morning, isn't it the 19th.
Mr.Lawson. Yes, sir; Tuesday morning.
Mr.Stern. Is this a normal amount of advance publicity for this kind of motorcade, regarding the actual route?
Mr.Lawson. Well, it depends on how much notice you have that the President is going there. It was announced this morning that he is taking a trip tomorrow on Appalachian poverty, so we sent agents out this morning. Naturally even if they wanted to publicize the motorcade route they wouldn't be able to do so in this instance. But on other occasions it had been announced sooner than that or about as soon in various areas; yes, sir.
Mr.Stern. Did you set up the areas at which the press would be located at Love Field and at the Trade Mart?
Mr.Lawson. Yes, sir; I did, with the approval of Mr. Hawkes from the White House staff, when he made a trip a little bit later. Time was of the essence. Sometimes we do it all when they do not send out someone to represent the press office from the White House, and sometimes they do it. In this case, because telephone lines, power lines, various engineering data would have to be disseminated and fixed up, we had to know where the press areas were going to be before Mr. Hawkes was able to come.
So I told them that I would set it up in the belief that I knew what they usually wanted from the White House press office, but that he would have the power to overrule me, and I requested assistance of a local TV technician as to the angles and what not that the cameramen would like.
Mr.Dulles. May I ask one question there. Do you know whether any consideration is now being given to withhold the announcement of the actual route to be followed by the Presidential party until say the morning that the trip is actually taken?
Mr.Lawson. Does this go into the realm of what we were talking about before as to what we are going to do in the future?