Mr.Fain. That is at the request of the Dallas office, that is right.
TheChairman. May I interrupt a moment, gentlemen? I have a commitment at the Smithsonian Institution for about 45 minutes, and so I will be obliged to leave at this time. Congressman Ford, will you preside during my absence, and if you should be obliged to leave for your congressional duties, leave it in charge of Mr. McCloy to do it. I expect to be back in three-quarters of an hour.
(At this point in the proceedings, the Chairman leaves the hearing room.)
RepresentativeFord[presiding]. Will you proceed, please, Mr. Stern.
Mr.Stern. Yes, sir. Was your interview with Robert Lee Oswald at your instance or did he volunteer?
Mr.Fain. I located him for interview and tried to locate his mother and, incidentally, in that connection he was very cooperative, and I obtained all the information that he had that I could, and he volunteered a lot of this information.
Mr.Stern. Had you previously asked him to let you know if he had received any communication from his brother?
Mr.Fain. I had asked him to be sure to let us know in case—I told him we wanted to talk to him when he came back.
Mr.Stern. You told him you wanted to know when Lee Harvey Oswald was coming back, but not whether he had any specific communication?
Mr.Fain. We specifically wanted him to let us know if he had any contact with Soviet intelligence agents, anything like that, anything that he thought might not look right, to be sure and let us know.
Mr.Stern. Then on page 8 it says that "Mrs. Robert Oswald promised to advise upon his arrival." Wereyou——
Mr.Fain. That was the wife of Robert.
Mr.Stern. Yes. Did you interview Mrs. Oswald, Mrs. Robert Oswald?
Mr.Fain. Yes, sir; yes, I did.
Mr.Stern. What was the occasion for that interview, Mr. Fain?
Mr.Fain. Well, to be sure and have someone let us know when this boy Lee arrived back in town.
Mr.Stern. You were willing to rely on her advice?
Mr.Fain. We had no reason not to. They had been very cooperative, both Mrs. Oswald and Robert Oswald. Robert is an older brother of Lee. I think he was about 2 years older than Lee.
Mr.Stern. Did Mrs. Robert Oswald advise you voluntarily that she had received this postcard from Lee Harvey Oswald or did this come up when you stopped by? That is at the bottom of page 7.
Mr.Fain. Yes; I believe she volunteered that. She had said or I might have asked her if she had any word from Lee. I don't recall now just how the conversation came up, but she said she had received a postal card from him on or about May 15, and it had been dated April 10.
Mr.Stern. When did you finally learn that he had arrived in Fort Worth, Mr. Fain?
Mr.Fain. Let's see, that was on, it must have been, the morning of the 26th, June 26.
Mr.Stern. How did you learn this information?
Mr.Fain. They hadn't let me know, and I began to think it was time for checking on this thing.
Mr.Stern. And by "they" youmean——
Mr.Fain. Robert had not let me know, and Mrs. Oswald had not let me know, so I thought I had better make an independent check, and so I inquired of them, and she told me that he and his wife and child had arrived in Fort Worth on June 14, and I asked her, "Why hadn't you let me know about it?" And she said, "Well, actually the whole family had been so harassed and that he just didn't feel like letting his face be shown outside of the house." In other words, he was afraid that the newspapers would come and harass him again, I guess.
Mr.Stern. Were there newspaper stories about his arrival, do you recall?
Mr.Fain. There were some that appeared in the paper which I have set out on page 8 and page 9. Yes; I refer to them on page 8 where they report his having gone to Russia.
Mr.Stern. Had these come to your attention before June 26?
Mr.Fain. Yes, sir; yes, sir. I kept up with these and was careful to clip them and put them in the file.
Mr.Stern. So that is it true that you knew before June 26 that he had returned?
Mr.Fain. No; I didn't know until that morning. I had no way of knowing that. There were some verifying communications which I set out on page 10 showing when he actually came in; page 10, you will notice, shows a check of records again back here showing when he actually left over there and when he arrived here. He arrived in New York City June 13 and then took a plane to Dallas, where he arrived on the 14th.
Mr.Stern. Yes; I thought I had understood you to say that the newspapers reflected his arrival in Fort Worth.
Mr.Fain. No; they were over there on pages 8 and 9. June 8, 1962, in the Fort Worth Star Telegram, daily newspaper of Fort Worth, there appeared a photograph of the subject, Lee Oswald, and the headline "Ex-Marine Reported On Way Back From Russia."
Mr.Stern. But there was no news story actually reporting his arrival?
Mr.Fain. No; he was staying in, apparently that was the reason, I guess he didn't want to get out because he was afraid he would be harassed by the neighbors or somebody and, at least, that is what Mrs. Oswald said. Hejust——
Mr.Stern. The harassment by newspaper reporters you referred to, probably did not mean reporters at the time of his arrival in Fort Worth.
Mr.Fain. Well, she was—I suppose she indicated or she said that he just hadn't gotten out of the house. In other words, he came in there on the 14th and apparently, according to her story, he didn't show his face outside that house.
Mr.Stern. Then what did you do when you learned he had arrived?
Mr.Fain. Well, I told her I would like to talk to him, he was there, and I made arrangements for him to come to the office and he said he could make it by 1 o'clock. I requested B. Tom Carter, my senior agent, to assist if he would me in interviewing Oswald, who came in about 10 minutes before 1. He came in the office like he said he would, and we talked to him on June 26, 1962.
Mr.Stern. Before you interview any subject, Mr. Fain, do you have a practice of giving him any cautionary statement, any warning?
Mr.Fain. It was always my policy, and I am sure I did in this case, to tell them this substantially, that, "You don't have to furnish us any information. Any information you furnish can be used against you in court, and you have a right to consult with an attorney before giving us any information or statements."
Mr.Stern. Can you actually recall that you said this to Oswald?
Mr.Fain. I don't recall specifically, but I know it was my religious practice to do it because we are always instructed to do that.
Mr.Stern. Fine.
Was the interview with Mr. Oswald recorded mechanically in any way?
Mr.Fain. It was not.
Mr.Stern. How did you record what he was telling you, in your usual fashion?
Mr.Fain. I was sitting behind the desk. He came up and sat down in front of the desk, and Mr. Carter was sitting to my left. We explained to him, we wanted to talk to him. I took the notes, and from my notes I dictated this, which we call an FD-302.
Mr.Stern. This is your memorandum and not Agent Carter's?
Mr.Fain. That is right; I was more familiar with the case. I took the notes and did the dictation.
Mr.Stern. And the dictation was when?
Mr.Fain. July 2, 1962; transcribed July 6, 1962.
Mr.Stern. These dates appear where?
Mr.Fain. The date of dictation is shown on the lower right-hand corner; date of interview at the left, and date of transcription or typing was on July 6, upper right-hand corner.
Mr.Stern. What was Lee Harvey Oswald's demeanor in the course of this interview?
Mr.Fain. He was tense, kind of drawn up, and rigid. He is a wiry little fellow, kind of waspy.
Mr.Stern. Did he answer all of your questions?
Mr.Fain. No; he didn't. As indicated there in the fourth paragraph, he was a little insolent in his answers. He was the type of individual who apparently doesn't want to give out information about himself, and we asked him why he had made this trip to Russia, and he looked like it got under his skin, and I noticed he got white around the lips and tensed up, and I understood it to be a show of a temper, and in a show of temper he stated he did not care to relive the past. He didn't want to go into that at all.
We asked him, I think I asked him, in various ways, three or four times, trying to ascertain just what the situation was, and he finally stated, that Soviet officials had asked him upon his arrival why he had come to Russia, and he told us, "I came because I wanted to." That is what he said he told the Soviet People, "I came because I wanted to," and he said, he told them, "I came over here to see the country." That is the kind of answers he gave.
Mr.Stern. Do you remember any other details of this interview that you haven't set forth here? I can't stress too greatly that we are interested in any detail, any fragment of this interview that you recall that isn't set forth here, any elaboration you want to make.
Mr.Fain.No——
Mr.Stern. Why don't you read it through carefully now and, as you go through, add to it in any way that you wish to, tell us anything else that you remember, any small detail that occurs to you. I don't mean read it out loud, read it to yourself.
Mr.Fain. I see.
Our primary objective at this time was to ascertain whether or not the Soviets had demanded anything of him in letting him get out of the country and permitting his wife to come along with him, and you will notice down there in paragraph12——
Mr.Stern. Page 12.
Mr.Fain. Excuse me, page 12, paragraph 4 of page 12, he stated that the Soviets made it very difficult for him to obtain permission for his wife to leave Russia, and that the process of obtaining permission for her to leave was a long, difficult course requiring much paper work. But he was just referring there to the length of time, and he denied that they had attempted to get anything from him or demand anything from him; and he denied that they had ever sought information from him of detriment to our country.
I don't recall anything, anything in addition to what is set out here.
Mr.McCloy. No suggestion that he was a secret agent?
Mr.Fain. No, sir.
Mr.McCloy. He had made no such suggestion to you as to that?
Mr.Fain. No, sir.
Mr.McCloy. Did you ever have any suspicion that he might have been?
Mr.Fain. That he may have been rewarded by the Russians and asked to do something or certain things about him? Well, an FBI agent is naturally suspicious, of course, of anything like that. Of course, he denied it. He denied that they demanded anything of him.
Mr.McCloy. And you never had any indication that he was a secret agent of any other country?
Mr.Fain. No, no.
Mr.McCloy. Including the United States?
Mr.Fain. You mean that he might have gone over there and seek out information for us?
Mr.McCloy. Yes.
Mr.Fain. No, sir; no, sir; nothing like that.
RepresentativeFord. At the time you had this interview with Oswald, did you have the information, for example, that appears on the first page of Commission No. 823 under the heading "Details"?
Mr.Fain. This information there was furnished by the Office of Naval Intelligence. I didn't check the records on that. That came in by communication. Does that answer the question, Mr. Ford?
RepresentativeFord. What I was inquiring about was did you have this information available to you at the time you interviewed him on July 13 or14——
Mr.Stern. June 26.
RepresentativeFord. June 26?
Mr.Fain. June 26; yes, sir. I am sure I did, because that is on March 20. I read they had sent it.
RepresentativeFord. In other words, you undoubtedlyhad——
Mr.Fain. I had access to anything in our files there pertaining to this case.
RepresentativeFord. You had information. For example, you were familiar with the statement in a report that, and I quote, "Subject allegedly told the embassy he had advised unnamed Soviet officials that as a former Marine radar operator he would make available to them information about his Marine Corps specialty when he became a Soviet citizen."
Mr.Fain. Yes, sir; that was an allegation that was made over there. As I recall that was obtained in a check at the embassy, United States Embassy.
(At this point in the proceedings, Mr. Dulles enters the hearing room.)
RepresentativeFord. Did you make any inquiry as to whether or not that was an accurate statement alleged to have been made by him to an embassy official?
Mr.Fain. Mr. Carter and I asked him, all about those things. Of course, he denied it.
RepresentativeFord. Did he make any specific denial of that, as you recall?
Mr.Fain. Yes; we asked him if he had been asked about anything concerning his specialty while in the Marine Corps and I think he said no, that he had not.
RepresentativeFord. What confuses me is, one, that he denied this to you, but then he apparently at some prior time had told the Embassy that he had advised unnamed Soviet officials that as a former Marine radar operator he would make available to them information about his Marine Corps specialty when he became a Soviet citizen.
Mr.Fain. Yes, sir; we were aware of that, that statement. He denied it, and he also denied that he had ever denounced his United States citizenship, and he denied to Mr. Carter and me that he had ever applied for Soviet citizenship specifically.
Mr.Stern. Was it your practice, Mr. Fain, to review the files on a subject before you interviewed him?
Mr.Fain. Yes, sir.
Mr.Stern. Can you recall whether you did that in this case?
Mr.Fain. I certainly did, yes, sir; there were so many details and so many allegations you had to study it long hours to get the thing further in mind.
Mr.Stern. But you think you did that before you interviewed Oswald?
Mr.Fain. Yes, sir.
Mr.Stern. In view of the purpose of the investigation, the interest that you had, what was your overall evaluation of Oswald as a result of this interview?
Mr.Fain. Well, that was—of course, that would be calling for my opinion,and we are interested only in getting facts on this case, facts, and all I could say is that he seemed tense.
Mr.Dulles. He seemed tense?
Mr.Fain. Tense, yes, sir; and drawn up. I don't know whether he was just scared or what his situation was, but he was—he exhibited an arrogant attitude, arrogant, cold, and inclined to be just a little insolent.
Mr.Stern. When he did tell you something would you tend to believe that he was telling you the truth or not? Did you form an impression of his veracity?
Mr.Fain. Well the information we had was that he had applied to renounce his citizenship, and he had applied for Soviet citizenship, and yet he denied that. It was just a flat denial and I had no way of knowing whether he was telling the truth or not. It is a thing that you cannot always tell. We got answers from him as set out here. He would give you some kind of answer.
Mr.Stern. Who was your immediate superior on a case like this, not his name, but describe his function.
Mr.Fain. He was on the desk in Dallas, and all of these investigations, all of my work, went across his desk. He would make the assignments also.
Mr.Stern. Tell the Commission what you mean by "the desk," please.
Mr.Fain. The supervisory desk in the Dallas office that handled security-type matters, and this report would go across his desk, and the assignments that would come to me would be made by him.
Mr.Stern. Did you discuss the Oswald case with your desk supervisor at this time, upon the completion of this interview?
Mr.Fain. I don't recall specifically talking to him at this time. If I had been over there in the next few days I imagine I would have talked to him or did talk to him. You see, I was in Fort Worth.
Mr.Stern. Yes.
Mr.Fain. And normally I would dictate my reports, and they would go by mail to Dallas and, of course, we were in telephonic contact, any time anything came up of any problem nature.
Mr.Stern. Would you have discussed the case with your supervisor if you thought that there was a particular and immediate problem?
Mr.Fain. Oh, certainly; yes, sir.
Mr.Stern. Did you think that there was a particular and immediate problem following your interview?
Mr.Fain. Well, I didn't feel satisfied because of his answers there as to why he went to Russia. He was evasive, and that was the reason I set out a lead to have him reinterviewed.
Mr.Stern. What do you mean by that, Mr. Fain?
Mr.Fain. To talk to him again. You see, at this time he had just come to town and he was out there at his brother's place. He had a wife and a little 4-month-old baby that he had brought from Russia, and he didn't have any established place to live, and I can see how the newspapers may have harrassed him, and it might have been, very likely was, that he didn't want to show himself out of the house, but I felt under the circumstances he ought to be talked to again, he ought to be interviewed in detail about these same things and, consequently, I did set out a lead.
Mr.Stern. What does that mean in terms of your procedures?
Mr.Fain. In my report I just suggested that he be reinterviewed.
Mr.Stern. Is that in this report?
Mr.Fain. That might have been my transmittal—no, it doesn't show here. It is probably on the transmittal to the chief of the Dallas office.
Mr.Stern. A recommendation that hebe——
Mr.Fain. A recommendation, yes, that he be reinterviewed because I wasn't thoroughly satisfied with some of the answers he gave.
Mr.Dulles. I wonder, Mr. Chairman, whether we should not have that transmittal letter; it seems to be pertinent to the case.
RepresentativeFord. I think it would be helpful in light of the testimony, Mr. Fain.
Mr.Fain. It was a lead sheet, what we call a lead, and I recall that on that I suggested that the records of Immigration and Naturalization Service bechecked and incorporated, and also that he be reinterviewed. Those were the two things I remember specifically having put in the report.
RepresentativeFord. That would be a cover to Commission No. 823?
Mr.Fain. A lead sheet; yes, sir.
Mr.Stern. We are going to have the testimony, gentlemen, of Mr. Alan Belmont, the third-ranking official of the Bureau, who can testify from an overall Bureau viewpoint on the way this case was handled and be able to respond to questions of that sort, what was in the internal memoranda, transmittal documents, and things of that sort.
Mr.Dulles. That is satisfactory.
Mr.Stern. Anything else at all, Mr. Fain, that you can tell us about this interview that we haven't covered already?
Mr.Fain. No, sir; I put it all on this 302.
Mr.Stern. Mr. Chairman, may we have admitted Commission Exhibit 823 for identification?
RepresentativeFord. It will be so admitted.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 823 for identification and received in evidence.)
Mr.Stern. Mr. Fain, I show you a report marked Commission No. 824 for identification, an eight-page report dated August 30, 1962. Can you identify this report?
Mr.Dulles. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr.Fain. Yes, sir; this is my report of August 30, 1962. It is a closing report, a report that records the result of an investigation pursuant to the lead I set out in this other report, referring to the reinterviewing.
Mr.Stern. This followed your other report by some 7 weeks?
Mr.Fain. Yes. I talked to him the last time June 26, 1962, and this interview was conducted August 16, 1962.
Mr.Stern. And the early report was dated July 10, 1962.
Mr.McCloy. July 10, 1962.
Mr.Fain. Yes, sir; and this report August 30.
Mr.Stern. August 30.
Mr.Fain. Yes, sir.
Mr.Stern. Have you reviewed this report recently, Mr. Fain?
Mr.Fain. I have.
Mr.Stern. In preparation for your testimony today?
Mr.Fain. I have.
Mr.Stern. Is there any statement in it you would like to correct?
Mr.Fain. No, sir.
Mr.Stern. Any information you would like to add to the data that are set forth?
Mr.Fain. No, sir.
Mr.Stern. What was the occasion for the investigative work reported in this document, Mr. Fain?
Mr.Fain. You will recall that I had set out a lead to reinterview him. I felt that he had just gotten back, from Russia on the previous interview, and that he might have been upset naturally, and a reinterview might be more productive. He might feel now settled down, so I set about to locate him and to talk to him again.
Mr.Stern. How did you locate him, Mr. Fain?
Mr.Fain. On August 14 I contacted Robert again, Robert L. Oswald, the older brother, at 7313 Davenport, and he told me that Lee Harvey had moved, that he didn't have his house number, but he was on Mercedes Street, west of Montgomery Ward & Co., just off Seventh Street.
Mr.Stern. In Fort Worth?
Mr.Fain. Yes, sir; in Fort Worth. And then I went there. He gave me the name of the street, and I went there and made some inquiries, and finally ascertained from an adjoining neighbor, just east of Lee's house—these were little duplex apartments—and she told me, yes, there is a Mr. Oswald who just moved in next door a few days ago.
Then onAugust——
Mr.Dulles. Could I ask, did she seem to know him at all well?
Mr.Fain. No; she didn't, she hadn't met them, but she just said some people had moved in, and that was enough for me. Robert had told me, had indicated pretty much where it was, and the fact is he gave me pretty good directions as to where to go. As a matter of fact, he had been down there himself in the apartment apparently, but he just didn't have the house number.
Mr.Stern. What did you do after you located the house, Mr. Fain?
Mr.Fain. After I located the house on the 15th, and I made arrangements to have another agent and I go out there and reinterview him. I didn't want to go to his house. I didn't want to contact his wife. I knew from the background we had conducted that she could not speak English. She could speak Russian only, and I didn't know any Russian, so it wouldn't have been any point in my contacting her and upsetting her.
So this agent and I in an automobile took up a surveillance at the end of the street out of sight of the house and away from the house, and waited until he came from work.
We observed him toward the end of the day, and I suppose it must have been around 5:30, something like that, in the late afternoon, walking down the street, and we then moved up in front of his house.
Of course, I knew him and he knew me from a previous interview, and I spoke to him, "Hi, Lee. How are you?" I said, "Would you mind talking with us just a few minutes?" So he got in the back seat. I remained in the front seat. Arnold J. Brown, the other agent, was in the back seat with him, and we talked with him there, and the results of the interview are set out here on page 4.
Mr.Stern. Was it your normal practice to conduct an interview in teams?
Mr.Fain. Yes, sir.
Mr.Stern. This interview you conducted with Agent Brown, and your previous interview you conducted with Agent Carter, I believe?
Mr.Fain. Yes, sir; Agent Carter was with me on the first one, and Arnold Brown was on the second one.
Mr.Stern. Why is that, Mr. Fain?
Mr.Fain. Well, in case something comes up in these important interview cases which might have some evidentiary value, we like to have two agents present.
Mr.Stern. Is your general rule always to have two agents when you interview any subject?
Mr.Fain. Subject, particularly if it is something other than routine; yes, sir.
Mr.Stern. This, as far as you were concerned, was something other than routine?
Mr.Fain. In internal security cases, in a case of this magnitude and this importance, we would always have two agents present.
Mr.Stern. When you say a case of this magnitude and a case of this importance, what do you have in mind?
Mr.Fain. Well, this man had been to Russia, and we wanted to try to find out whether he had been recruited by the Russians to do a job against the United states.
Mr.Stern. So this, in relation to your other cases, was an important case?
Mr.Fain. It was important.
Mr.Dulles. Do you often conduct interviews in a car or was this rather unusual?
Mr.Fain. We felt that in this case we could get his cooperation better if we could show to him that we weren't trying to embarrass him. I explained to him that afternoon, "We didn't contact you at your place of employment; we didn't want to embarrass you before your employer," and didn't want to upset his wife and, therefore, I hadn't bothered his wife, and we just felt if we talked to him there in the car informally, he would better cooperate with us.
Mr.Dulles. It wasn't because he showed reluctance to have you go in the house or didn't invite you or anything of that kind?
Mr.Fain. Oh, no; no. Actually he invited us in when we stopped him. He said, "Won't you come in the house?" And I said, "Well, we will just talk here. We will be alone to ourselves and we will be informal, and just fine." So he got in the car with Agent Brown.
Mr.McCloy. Was he actually less truculent than he had been before?
Mr.Fain. Yes; he had actually settled down. He had gotten a job at Leslie Machine Shop, and he wasn't as tense. He seemed to talk more freely with us.
Mr.McCloy. He indicated that he had been or his wife had been in constant communication with the Soviet Embassy here?
Mr.Fain. Well, he told me on the previous interview that he would have to get in touch with the Russian Embassy and let them know that his wife was in this country, and to let them know his address, and I asked him if he had done that, and he said he had in this second interview. He said he would have to contact them. The way he termed it, his phraseology was, that the Soviet law was that a person in her position coming over here, a citizen from Russia, must notify the Soviet Embassy of her current address, and he said that should be done periodically.
Mr.Stern. Did you discuss his discharge from the Marine Corps?
Mr.Fain. We actually went over substantially everything we had asked him before.
Mr.Stern. Did he seem concerned about that?
Mr.Fain. The fact that he had been given the unfavorable discharge? I believe now, I don't recall just exactly whether I asked him right at that time whether there had been any disposition of that, and maybe I did.
Mr.Stern. The third paragraph on page 4 refers to that, and I just wondered if you could say more about it.
Mr.Fain. Yes; he just advised about the matter of having been given an undesirable discharge had not been reviewed. We did ask him that because he brought it up and mentioned it before.
Mr.Stern. Did heseem——
Mr.Fain. He didn't know when it would be heard at that time. He said he didn't know when it would be heard.
Mr.Stern. Did he seem angry about it, the status?
Mr.Fain. No; just answered it and didn't seem ruffled.
Mr.Stern. At any point in the course of the interview did he display anger or irritation?
Mr.Fain. The only point he did, was when we asked him again why he went to the Soviet Union in the first place, and I didn't like his answer there. That is set out on the bottom of page 5. He still declined to answer questions as to why he went to the Soviet Union in the first instance. He said he considered it nobody's business why he wanted to go to the Soviet Union. Finally he stated he went over to Russia for his own personal reasons. He said it was a personal matter to him. He said, "I went and I came back." He said "It was something that I did." So he just bowed his neck and apparently wasn't going to tell anything further at all on that point.
Mr.Dulles. Could I ask a question? On the bottom of the earlier page, page 1, where it stated that Oswald was interviewed when he first arrived at the Soviet Union, and he stated he was interviewed when he was about to leave by representatives of the MVD, he was quite clear about the MVD and not the KGB?
Mr.Fain. That is right; he indicated the MVD.
Mr.Dulles. And he clearly said MVD?
Mr.Fain. Yes, sir; he described it as being—handling criminal matters among the population generally, is the way he described it.
Mr.Dulles. That might be. That is really the Ministry of the Interior, and the KGB is the secret security services, which has been sometimes controlling and sometimes has been under the Ministry of the Interior.
Mr.Fain. Yes, sir; he indicated to us just the ordinary way. In other words, I gathered from him that the police interviewed him when he came in, and also he said the police interviewed him when he left. But he said he made no deals with them or with any intelligence agents of the Soviet system.
RepresentativeFord. On page 2, Mr. Fain, are written two words. One is "Texas," is that, and another is "Noloc."'
Mr.Fain. I have no knowledge of who put that on or how that came there. I guess that looks like maybe "Texas" up there at the top.
RepresentativeFord. Would the second be "no location." Is that an abbreviation for that?
Mr.Fain. That probably has reference to somebody's notation. It may have been on the desk over there; no location for the uncle, no city stated for his location.
RepresentativeFord. Would that be something added by someone other than yourself?
Mr.Fain. Yes, sir; I did not make that notation. I have no knowledge as to who did. It was made in Dallas.
Mr.Stern. Mr. Fain, apart from the question of why he went to the Soviet Union in the first place, was he reluctant to answer any other questions that you put to him?
Mr.Fain. As I recall it, he answered the other questions fairly readily, and he appeared to be a lot more relaxed than he was the first time.
Mr.Stern. Throughout the interview?
Mr.Fain. With the exception of this, he kind of bowed up there, and said, it was a personal matter as to why he went over there. He said he came and he went back. Just a little bit insolent. He said it was nobody's business.
Mr.Stern. How long did this interview last, Mr. Fain?
Mr.Fain. I don't recall exactly, but I expect we talked to him about an hour, maybe an hour and 15 minutes, something like that.
Mr.Stern. How does that compare with the length of time of your first interview with him in your office?
Mr.Fain. As I recall, the first interview, and again I don't recall it exactly, but I was of the opinion we talked to him for maybe an hour and a half, and maybe 2 hours. It was close to 2 hours because we couldn't cover all the questions in a lesser period of time. We approached the things in different ways and from different angles, and to see if he wouldn't give us the information.
Mr.Stern. Would you read over these three pages of your memorandum of the interview, pages 4, 5, and 6 of the report, and see if there is anything you would like to add or clarify, any detail that occurs to you now that you didn't cover there, any flavor or color of the interview that you wouldn't ordinarily put in your report that you can tell us about?
Mr.Fain. All right, sir; it is in there. It is indicated in the last paragraph.
Mr.Stern. On what page?
Mr.Fain. Page 6. Really there is no point in repeating, but he did play down during the entire interview—he seemed to be just a little bit derisive of our questions, and hesitated to bring out whether or not the Soviet intelligence officials might have been interested in him or might have contacted him, and he downgraded or played that down. He just didn't think he was that important; in other words, that they would want to contact him.
Mr.Dulles. How was he on that point, was he strong on that point, did he press that point?
Mr.Fain. No; there wasn't anything remarkable about that different from the other. He saw no reason why the Soviets would want to contact him. He didn't feel like he was of any importance to them. He said that he would cooperate with us and report to us any information that would come to his attention.
Mr.Dulles. On the bottom of—excuse me.
Mr.Fain. That is all right; I was through.
Mr.Dulles. On the bottom of page 1 of your report, page 4 of the exhibit, it is indicated that this report was made by Special Agent Arnold J. Brown and by you. Do you recall who dictated the report?
Mr.Fain. I did.
Mr.Dulles. And was it concurred in by Special Agent Arnold J. Brown?
Mr.Fain. Yes, sir.
Mr.Dulles. He saw it?
Mr.Fain. Yes, sir.
Mr.Dulles. He concurred in it?
Mr.Fain. Yes, sir; he saw the dictated, the finished document and initialed it.
RepresentativeFord. What kind of covering letter did you send with this to the Dallas office, if any?
Mr.Fain. There would be none because this is closed. In other words, there didn't seem to be any evidence that he had a potential for violence or anything like that, and we just closed the case, and this went over there very likely without any transmittal.
Mr.Dulles. Where is there an indication here that the case was closed?
Mr.Fain. "C." This letter "C" under the synopsis is a symbol we use just to save typing time, it stands for closed.
RepresentativeFord. Who makes that determination?
Mr.Fain. As to whether the ease would be closed or not?
RepresentativeFord. Yes.
Mr.Fain. It was my determination and my recommendation it be closed. Of course, the report goes to the supervisor's desk in the Dallas office, and if he concurs he lets it go on through, and if he declines he would send it back for additional investigation or other action, whatever he deemed appropriate.
Mr.Dulles. Was there a written recommendation that this case be closed other than this?
Mr.Fain. No; other than this, no.
Mr.Dulles. That "C" is all?
Mr.Fain. Yes.
RepresentativeFord. Is that "C" put on by you?
Mr.Fain. Yes, sir; in my dictation.
RepresentativeFord. In your dictation?
Mr.Fain. Yes, sir; to show the case closed.
Mr.Dulles. Did you get any approval or disapproval of that, or, if it is not disapproved, you consider it conclusive?
Mr.Fain. Well, if it is going to be disapproved, I would hear probably the third day, or if he wanted to get on the telephone and call me to do something additional that he thought ought to be done, then I would be told to do some additional work on it.
RepresentativeFord. What is the significance of the third day? Is this the usual time or what?
Mr.Fain. No; I was just thinking about the mail time. You get a communication out, for instance, if I mailed this report it would get there the next day, and they would review it and then they would mail it out and I would get it the third day.
RepresentativeFord. Just the communication time.
Mr.Fain. That is right; that is right.
Mr.Dulles. Did you get any comment back at all on this report from headquarters?
Mr.Fain. No; I did not.
Mr.Stern. Would you elaborate, Mr. Fain, about your conclusions on this case and your evaluation of Oswald the man as of the time of your second interview. What led you to your recommendation?
Mr.Fain. An evaluation as to what?
Mr.Stern. From the viewpoint of the investigation you were conducting. You told us how you felt about him on the first interview, and you felt a further interview would be necessary.
Mr.Fain. Well, I felt in the second interview he was more relaxed, and I felt he answered the questions more readily and with less evasion.
However, he still didn't seem to want to go into the reasons why he went over there in the first place, and why he wouldn't do it. Evidently he had his own reasons for giving those answers. I don't know whether he just wanted to be—maybe he was just inherently insolent, and that is just typical of his personality is all I could figure out.
Mr.Stern. Will you tell us again the purpose of your investigation, what you were after.
Mr.Fain. The purpose of this investigation was to determine whether or not he had been contacted by the Soviet intelligence agencies, whether he had been given an assignment or not, whether they had made any deal with him, and whether, as a demand, for permitting his wife to accompany him—you see,for a long time, they told him he couldn't take her apparently, and there was quite a period that he was waiting to get her, and he refused to come back to the United States unless his wife came back with him. We wanted to find out whether or not the Soviets had demanded anything of him in return for letting her come on over.
Mr.Stern. As to that, had you formed a conclusion, after the second interview?
Mr.Fain. As to—on that point?
Mr.Stern. Yes.
Mr.Fain. Well he answered it and said, "No." He played it down all the way through. In other words, that was the main purpose we were talking to him, was to try to ascertain that point. He downgraded it all the way through, and belittled himself. He said, "I was not that important."
Mr.Stern. Was your recommendation that this case be closed, a recommendation that indicates that you had reached a conclusion on the question of your investigation?
Mr.Fain. Yes, sir; even though he was arrogant and cold, from his answers, I couldn't see any potential for danger or violence at that point.
Mr.Dulles. Did Special Agent Arnold J. Brown concur in your decision with regard to marking the case "C," closed?
Mr.Fain. Yes, sir; I remarked to him we were just going to close it, and he saw the finished report and initialed the report.
Mr.Dulles. He saw that conclusion and concurred in it?
Mr.Fain. Yes, sir.
Mr.Stern. In terms of your FBI procedures, what is the difference between marking a case closed or marking it pending?
Mr.Fain. Well, if it is a pending case, there is additional work to be done on it.
Mr.Stern. Specific additional work?
Mr.Fain. Yes, sir; specific leads to be done on the case.
Mr.Stern. And closed means that there are no such specific leads, is that right?
Mr.Fain. Yes, sir; that is right; it is closed.
Mr.Stern. But does that mean that the case is in dead storage somewhere?
Mr.Fain. Not forever; no. If there is any reason for reopening it, it could be reopened the next day if necessary or the next 3 days or any time. But this assignment had been completed. He had been interviewed. That was the purpose of this contact, to interview him, and set forth the results of re-interview, and that was all that was to be done.
Mr.Stern. Are cases frequently reopened?
Mr.Fain. Cases are reopened constantly. If there is any reason for reopening it, it certainly would be reopened.
Mr.Stern. Is it fair to say then that in this kind of situation, "closed" is really a shorthand for "no further work to be done at this time"?
Mr.Fain. Correct, correct.
Mr.Dulles. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr.McCloy. What is the date of this last report here?
Mr.Fain. The date of this was August 30, 1962.
Mr.McCloy. August 30, 1962.
Mr.Stern. Mr. Fain, do you recall discussing Lee Harvey Oswald with his brother Robert Oswald about this time?
Mr.Fain. Discussing his brother with him?
Mr.Stern. Did you ever talk to Robert Oswald about any of your conclusions regarding Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr.Fain. Certainly not. I contacted him on August 14, but that was for the purpose of locating his brother for interview.
Mr.Stern. Is it possible that you might have said to him at some point, "I have interviewed your brother and I don't think he presents a problem," or "I do"? I don't suppose you would say that.
Mr.Fain. Positively not. I never made that statement to him at any time.
Mr.Stern. This would be contrary to your operations?
Mr.Fain. That would call for a conclusion, and we wouldn't discuss a matter like that with anyone, especially a relative.
Mr.Stern. With any unofficial person?
Mr.Fain. Official—that is right. Of course with my supervisor and some official who is entitled to it, but I certainly did not talk to Robert Oswald about anything like that.
Mr.Stern. Do you have any indication from your interviews with Lee Harvey Oswald or from anything else you knew about him, from your investigation, that he was dangerous or potentially violent?
Mr.Fain. No, sir; no, sir; if there had been any indication that he was potentially dangerous or violent or had a potential for violence, we certainly wouldn't have closed it.
Mr.McCloy. You felt he constituted no security risk to the United States?
Mr.Fain. Well, we couldn't prove that he was a member of the Communist Party in Fort Worth; had no report that he was a member of the party.
Mr.McCloy. Quite apart from the party, from party membership, was it your conclusion that he was—he did not constitute a security risk?
Mr.Fain. I couldn't see any potential for violence.
Mr.McCloy. I am not talking about potential for violence. I am talking about security risk. You know what I mean by that. You are an experienced security officer.
Mr.Fain. Well, I am suspicious of any Communist, obviously, and I think any Communist is a threat because I think they are atheistic, materialistic; I don't think they know what the truth is, and from that standpoint I would think he is—but he wasn't, we couldn't say. The checks we made were to the effect that he was not a Communist, was not a member of the Communist Party.
Mr.McCloy. Was not a member of the Communist Party.
Mr.Fain. But he went to Russia. Of course, we couldn't get him to tell us why he went. We tried on two occasions. He said it was personal with him. He wanted to go over there the first time, and in that first interview he said, "I don't care to relive the past."
Mr.McCloy. I understand that. But if you had doubts about his security, about his loyalty to the United States, or put it the other way, or if you think he might have been a security risk to the United States, should you have closed this case?
Mr.Fain. Yes, sir; we would have closed it because there was no reason to keep it open. We had the information. We reinterviewed him, no potential for violence appearing.
Mr.McCloy. That isn't the test, is it, whether he can be capable of intrigue or he can be capable of espionage without violence. He could be a security risk without violence, couldn't he?
Mr.Fain. Well, that might be, of course. Of course—if we knew then what did happen, was going to happen, we certainlywouldn't——
Mr.McCloy. I am not talking about hindsight. I am talking about as of that time whether in your judgment this man was no longer, in your judgment, to be considered as a security risk to the United States. I am not trying to place any blame or criticism here. I am just trying to get the state of your mind as of the date of that report, whether that included your belief that he was not a security risk.
Mr.Fain. Well, we like to let our reports stand for themselves, in other words on the situation, the answers given. In answer to your question, I would have been rather satisfied if he would have told me why he went over there and if he weren't so evasive.
Mr.McCloy. You got an impression he was evasive and he was not telling you the truth?
Mr.Fain. Well, he was inclined to be haughty and arrogant, and even though he was insolent, and that could have been, of course, a part of his personality makeup, that type of individual.
Mr.McCloy. Let me ask you this: If you had felt in spite of his answers that he was a security risk, would it have been incumbent upon you to report to your superiors that he was, and that you thought he ought to be continued under surveillance?
Mr.Fain. Yes, sir; if he would have met the qualifications we considered that he had been a security risk, and had a potential for any violence or dangerousness, why, we certainly would have stayed on him.
Mr.Dulles. And you would not have marked the report as closed, the case as closed.
Mr.Fain. Well, I closed it because my investigation was completed. The assignment was to interview him and the case at the end of the interview with the information we obtained the case was closed. The man had found a job, he was working, he was living in this duplex with his wife, and he was not a member of the Communist Party. Of course, it was true he had been to Russia. He denied any contacts with a Soviet intelligence agent. He denied that he had any contacts. We considered all the facts and circumstances and closed the case, and that is what I did.
Mr.McCloy. If you had not come to that, would you have put in another lead for another interview?
Mr.Fain. Yes, sir.
Mr.McCloy. Would it have been incumbent upon you to recommend to your superiors that he be continued under surveillance?
Mr.Fain. I could have recommended that he be reinterviewed but I frankly didn't see any point in doing that.
Mr.McCloy. I understand that. But assuming you did find some derogatory information, or some facts that made you fear that he was a security risk beyond a recommendation for further interviews, what would be your province to do? Would it be your province to recommend surveillance?
Mr.Fain. Yes, sir; if there had been some facts there to indicate that hewas——
Mr.McCloy. A potential danger?
Mr.Fain. A potential danger to the security of the United States, and for instance if we had found that he was a member of the Communist Party and meeting with them, made some contact with them, I certainly would have stayed right on it.
Mr.McCloy. You would have recommended that he be kept under surveillance then?
Mr.Fain. Yes, sir.
Mr.McCloy. That is all I am getting at.
RepresentativeFord. Are you through, John?
Mr.McCloy. Yes.
RepresentativeFord. On the top page of Commission Exhibit 824 it says, and I quote, "Oswald and wife unknown to confidential informant." Did you make that check?
Mr.Fain. I did. I checked with the confidential security informants that we had there, and they said this man was not known to be a member of the party, and the party had not discussed him for membership purposes or anything like that.
RepresentativeFord. Do you have in this area, or did you have at that time in this area reliable confidential informants?
Mr.Fain. Yes, sir; yes, sir. Excellent informants.
RepresentativeFord. During your experience in Fort Worth or otherwise, did you ever have a case similar to the Oswald case, a defector who had returned to the United States?
Mr.Fain. No, sir.
RepresentativeFord. This was your only one?
Mr.Fain. I had read in the newspapers about them occurring in various areas in the United States but this was the first one I had handled.
RepresentativeFord. This was the only one of a similar nature that you handled?
Mr.Fain. I believe there were some cases back there too. We did handle one or two of those where the man in the service had made some kind of a remark, and we had interviewed him when he returned. I remember two or three of those cases when he returned to this country.
We contacted him to ascertain what his employment was, what his status was, what his present residence was, what his present attitude was, and whetheror not he would report to us if he were contacted under auspicious circumstances abroad or otherwise. We worked on several of those, that type of case.
RepresentativeFord. Your contacts with these confidential informants, were they prior to or subsequent to this interview with Oswald?
Mr.Fain. This was subsequent. This was the day following. I had also previously interviewed them.
RepresentativeFord. I think there was a somewhat similar statement in one of your other reports.
Mr.Fain. I believe in the other report, yes, sir.
(At this point, Chief Justice Warren entered the hearing room)
Mr.Dulles. Do you recall any other instances where you have marked a case closed where headquarters has come back and suggested that it not be closed and that further investigation be made?
Mr.Fain. Right now, I can't specifically recall any instances, but it has been done, and if the supervisor felt additional work should be done we would have no hesitancy in doing it.
Mr.Stern. Mr. Fain, your recommendation about closing a case is checked by how many supervisors that you know?
Mr.Fain. One on the security desk there before it goes on here to the seat of Government.
Mr.Stern. This is one on the security desk in Dallas?
Mr.Fain. Yes, sir.
Mr.Stern. Then what happens?
Mr.Fain. Then the report goes on into Washington here, to the FBI.
Mr.Stern. As far as you know is it checked again here?
Mr.Fain. Oh, yes.
Mr.Stern. And by whom or by what kind of official?
Mr.Fain. Well, they have a desk up here that has that function, too, you see. I don't know just, Mr. Belmont can probably answer that better than I can because I am not familiar at all with the workings of it up here. But I know they are rigidly checked and rechecked.
Mr.Stern. Now, at the time you filed this report, in view of the fact that you didn't see, as you testified, any further work to be done at thistime——
Mr.Fain. That is right.
Mr.Stern. Could you have put the case in any other status besides "Closed"? Is there any other administrative procedure that might have been available to you under the circumstances where you had nothing further, no further work to recommend at the time?
Mr.Fain. Any other status? I could have put it, of course, in a pending status and set out some leads.
Mr.Stern. No, no; assuming you didn't see any further work to be done, any further leads at that time, under your administrative practices?
Mr.Fain. No; if the work has been completed, we put the recommendation that it be closed and as I say, of course, that is no ironbound thing, to keep it from being reopened. It can be reopened any time, any of these security cases, the very next day, if necessary or the next 5 days or the next month, anything comes in on it or we get any specific reason for reopening it, it certainly is reopened.
RepresentativeFord. A few minutes ago I asked you a question about checking with confidential informants. Did this check involve only confidential informants in Fort Worth as far as the Communist Party was concerned, or would it have a broader check?
Mr.Fain. These were the confidential informants available to me in Fort Worth only.
RepresentativeFord. Would there be a different set of informants in Dallas?
Mr.Fain. Yes; they had informants, I suppose, one or two from the area there, but we certainly had two when I considered to be excellent right in Fort Worth and I am sure they had good access.
RepresentativeFord. But would such a check of informants at Fort Worth necessarily mean there couldn't have been some relationship Oswald had with the Communist Party in Dallas, for example?
Mr.Fain. Well, these in Fort Worth are familiar with some of the activity in Dallas, too.
RepresentativeFord. There would be a connection between your informants in FortWorth——
Mr.Fain. Yes, sir.
RepresentativeFord. And those that might exist in Dallas?
Mr.Fain. Yes, sir. I contacted these on several occasions, on two occasions that I remember, and, I felt, if this man was a member of the Communist Party they would know about it.
RepresentativeFord. When one of the Secret Service agents went down to Dallas prior to the assassination in his preparation for the visit of the President he checked through informants in certain right-wing elements in Dallas to see whether or not there was to be any violence at the time of the President's visit. There have been allegations to the effect that Oswald was in some way connected with such alleged right-wing organizations. Did you have any knowledge of that?
Mr.Fain. No, sir; no, sir.
RepresentativeFord. Did you have any reason to check it?
Mr.Fain. No; all the information that I had and as these reports will reflect, he was along the lines of Marxist, Communist, if anything, and I don't think you will find any indication that he was on the other.
RepresentativeFord. You had no information that he was in any way whatsoever connected with the alleged right-wing organizations?
Mr.Fain. That is right. That is right, I did not.
Mr.McCloy. Did any Secret Service people get in contact with you prior to the visit of the President, or did you get in contact with them?
Mr.Fain. No, sir. You see, I retired from the FBI October 29 of 1962. The President was down there November 22, of 1963.
Mr.McCloy. I forgot.
Mr.Dulles. That was how long, I didn't catch the date, how long before the assassination attempt?