Mr.Hosty. This did appear in the report on Lee Harvey Oswald. That was the report of December 2, I believe was the date. That was the first report. You probably have that overall report, don't you?
(Discussion off the record.)
RepresentativeFord. Did this material which was in Mrs. Paine'sfile——
Mr.Hosty. Right.
RepresentativeFord. Appear in either Marina or Lee Harvey Oswald's file prior to the assassination?
Mr.Hosty. Let me see. Part of it would have, this paragraph on page 11, this November 1, Mrs. Ruth Paine was interviewed. This appeared in the communication I sent out to the New Orleans office advising them where he was employed.
Mr.Dulles. When was that sent?
Mr.Hosty. The 4th of November, sir. The rest of it was in note form. I hadn't reduced it to writing yet.
RepresentativeFord. I am still not clear what part was in Mrs. Paine's file and what part was in Marina's file and what part was in Lee Harvey Oswald's file prior to November 22.
Mr.Hosty. Prior to November 22 just—there was no file for Mrs. Paine prior to November 22.
RepresentativeFord. So this didn't appear in her file?
Mr.Hosty. No.
RepresentativeFord. Until subsequentto——
Mr.Hosty. Right.
RepresentativeFord. The assassination?
Mr.Hosty. There was no file for Mrs. Paine until after the assassination.
RepresentativeFord. Then what part appeared in Marina's file or Lee Harvey's file prior to November 22?
Mr.Hosty. Just the second paragraph of this page 11 or the second page.
Mr.Dulles. Would this have constituted a reopening of the Lee Harvey Oswald file, because I think we had testimony this morning that the file had been closed.
Mr.Hosty. This would constitute having the New Orleans office change origin to Dallas. At this time the file on Lee Oswald was open. We were open as an auxiliary office.
Mr.Dulles.In——
Mr.Hosty. In Dallas.
Mr.Dulles. In Dallas?
Mr.Hosty. Right, and this communication to New Orleans was a request that we be made origin.
Mr.Stern. I wonder if I might summarize this?
Mr.Dulles. It is not clear to me.
Mr.Hosty. You missed a lot of this.
Mr.Stern. The file was closed, sir, until March of 1963 when Mr. Hosty decided it should be reopened on the basis of two items of information, one of them the fact that Lee Harvey Oswald was listed as a subscriber to the Worker newspaper.
Mr.Dulles. This is the Dallas file you are now talking of?
Mr.Stern. Dallas. The case was closed in the Dallas office. He reopened it in the Dallas office. He subsequently found that Oswald had moved, apparently permanently, to New Orleans, and had the file and the case administrativelyshifted as far as his responsibility, as far as his primary responsibility, to the New Orleans office.
Mr.Dulles. Does that mean the papers were also shifted?
Mr.Hosty. No, sir; just those papers which they lacked. I reviewed our file. I could tell what communications they had and which communications they didn't. I then gave them all communications which I was not certain that they had.
Mr.Dulles. But the other communications remained in the Dallas file?
Mr.Hosty. Right.
Mr.Dulles. But the Dallas file, then, was not, in a sense, reactivated since the action had been transferred to New Orleans, is that correct?
Mr.Hosty. To New Orleans; right. Then in October the case was shifted back to Dallas again.
Mr.Dulles. At what time?
Mr.Hosty. Well, actually, November 4 would be our request to have the case transferred back to Dallas office of origin.
Mr.Stern. I think you ought to make clear, Mr. Hosty, to Mr. Dulles, that early in October you started doing something for the New Orleans office at their request.
Mr.Hosty. Yes.
Mr.Stern. New Orleans found that they couldn't locate Lee Harvey Oswald in New Orleans.
Mr.Dulles. He had left in the meantime?
Mr.Hosty. Right.
Mr.Stern. Yes; from their leads he seemed to have gone back into the Dallas area, and they asked the Dallas office to see if they could locate him. Mr. Hosty was doing this work at the end of October and the beginning of November when he ran these interviews. Just to complete that, Mr. Hosty, you expected, did you not, that the case would be reassigned?
Mr.Hosty. Oh, yes.
Mr.Stern. To the Dallas office?
Mr.Hosty. Oh, yes. This was tantamount to requesting it be shifted to us, yes, when I sent this communication.
Mr.Stern. And you were beginning to think in terms of the case being your problem again?
Mr.Hosty. Right.
Mr.Stern. Even though formally at the time you wereonly——
Mr.Hosty. Auxiliary office.
Mr.Stern. Operating on the request of the New Orleans office to try to locate him, is that correct?
Mr.Hosty. That is correct.
Mr.McCloy. This has all been previously testified to?
Mr.Dulles. I am sorry to have missed that.
Mr.Hosty. That is all right, Mr. Dulles, that is entirely all right.
Mr.Dulles. Just one question. Are cases of this kind administratively transferred by agreement between two offices, or does that have to go up to Washington?
Mr.Hosty. Washington always gets a copy of these communications. They know what we are doing. Actually the original is sent to Washington, and a carbon is sent to the other field office.
Mr.Dulles. But you can transfer it directly from one office to another?
Mr.Hosty. Right.
Mr.Dulles. And just notify Washington as to the possibility of its being transferred?
Mr.Hosty. Right; because he is now residing and employed in our division. There is no more needs to be done.
Mr.Dulles. I am clear. Thank you very much.
Mr.Stern. I think perhaps we can just complete the line of inquiry started by Congressman Ford. Do your records or notes show when you first reduced to writing your notes on the interviews that began on October 29 and the last one of which occurred on November 5?
Mr.Hosty. I can only say that it would have been sometime between the 22d of November and the 2d of December, because it went out in a report on the 2d of December.
Mr.Stern. Until then they were in the formof——
Mr.Hosty. Notes.
Mr.Stern. Raw notes?
Mr.Hosty. Right.
Mr.Stern. Do you take shorthand or any other form of speedwriting?
Mr.Hosty. No.
Mr.Stern. Have you preserved the notes?
Mr.Hosty. I don't have them with me, no; because once it is reduced to writing then we destroy the notes. That is the procedure.
Mr.Stern. You say you don't have them with you. Did you preserve these notes?
Mr.Hosty. No; they were thrown away.
Mr.Stern. And this is the only record now that youhave——
Mr.Hosty. Right.
Mr.Stern. Of these activities?
Mr.McCloy. Do you have any record in your office as to when that was put into type? Does your secretary have it?
Mr.Hosty. They might, sir. I think they might. I couldn't say for sure.
Mr.McCloy. I think you might look that up and see if you have any record, and give it to us.
Mr.Hosty. All right, sir.
Mr.Stern. But you are clear that it occurred after the assassination?
Mr.Hosty. Oh, yes, sir; positive.
Mr.Stern. Is that usual, that youwould——
Mr.Hosty. Something of this nature, yes, sir; no reason to reduce it to writing right away.
Mr.Stern. It is true, isn't it, that some of this information had alreadybeen——
Mr.Hosty. Transmitted in letter form to New Orleans; right.
Mr.Dulles. Prior to the assassination?
Mr.Hosty. Prior to the assassination; yes, sir.
RepresentativeFord. That part on the second page?
Mr.Hosty. Right; this second paragraph starting, "On November 1, 1963, Mrs. RuthPaine"——
RepresentativeFord. What did you do, dictate that to a stenographer?
Mr.Hosty. Right.
RepresentativeFord. And she typed it and it was sent officially?
Mr.Hosty. On the 4th of November, right, airmail letter to New Orleans.
Mr.Stern. Would that be sent to your headquarters in Washington?
Mr.Hosty. Also. Excuse me, the original goes to headquarters in Washington, a copy goes to New Orleans. It is addressed to the headquarters.
Mr.Stern. But the only information sent was the information in that paragraph beginning "On November 1, 1963."
Mr.McCloy. But you had your original notes with you?
Mr.Hosty. Right.
Mr.McCloy. And still intact?
Mr.Hosty. Right.
Mr.McCloy. At the time you putthis——
Mr.Hosty. Because I knew I was going to get this into a report. The next report was written, and I would put it in a report form and destroy the notes.
Mr.Dulles. Do we have a copy of that letter of November 4?
Mr.Hosty. I don't know.
Mr.Dulles. That you sent to headquarters and to New Orleans?
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr.Stern. You tell us you have reviewed these two pages?
Mr.Hosty. Yes.
Mr.Stern. Is there anything you would like to add?
Mr.Hosty. No, sir.
Mr.Stern. Anything you would like to correct?
Mr.Hosty. No, sir.
Mr.Stern. This accurately states the interviews that you covered. May this be admitted in the record?
TheChairman. It may be admitted, No. 830.
(The document marked Commission Exhibit No. 830 for identification was received in evidence.)
RepresentativeFord. May I ask one question here?
Mr.Hosty. Yes, sir.
RepresentativeFord. Why in these notes that are now Commission Exhibit 830 didn't you mention the fact that Mrs. Paine had said that Oswald was a Trotskyite Marxist?
Mr.Hosty. No; that is set forth down here, sir.
RepresentativeFord. Yes; right.
Mr.Hosty. In this second to the last paragraph, the last line.
Mr.McCloy. May I ask you this, Mr. Hosty. In your contacts with Mrs. Paine, did you get the impression that she was cooperative throughout?
Mr.Hosty. Yes, sir; yes, sir.
Mr.McCloy. Nothing that she said seemed to be inconsistent with any facts that you knew?
Mr.Hosty. No.
SenatorCooper. May I ask a question? I believe you said that all the papers that you had respecting Lee Harvey Oswald were supplied to the office at New Orleans.
Mr.Hosty. At the time they were made origin; yes, sir. In the summer of 1963, that is correct, all the files.
SenatorCooper. At the time that he was engagedin——
Mr.Hosty. In the Fair Play for Cuba work; yes, sir.
SenatorCooper. What do you call it—Fair Play for Cuba?
Mr.Hosty. Fair Play for Cuba; yes, sir.
SenatorCooper. Now Mr. Fain testified that he had interviewed Oswald I think in19——
Mr.Hosty. 1962.
SenatorCooper. 1962.
Mr.Hosty. That is correct.
SenatorCooper. The year before. Mr. Quigley testified that Oswald told him that he had married a Russian girl whose maiden name was Prossa, and also in that file there was another statement in which Oswald had said that he had been married, that he had married a girl in Fort Worth. Now were all those papers available to the office in New Orleans?
Mr.Hosty. Yes, sir.
SenatorCooper. I suppose this would be a question of Mr. Quigley, really, but if all those factors were known, it would appear that the facts that Mr. Fain had secured, which showed the defection and his marriage in Russia, and the fact that he had told someone else he was married in Texas, that there would have been some further investigation of it in New Orleans.
Mr.Hosty. Well, this would be something that Mr. Quigley would have to answer.
Mr.McCloy. You had a record of inconsistent statements in there.
Mr.Hosty. Yes, sir.
Mr.Stern. Continuing that line, Mr. Hosty, do you recognize Commission Exhibit 826, I now hand you?
Mr.Hosty. Yes.
Mr.Stern. That is the reportof——
Mr.Hosty. Milton R. Kaack.
Mr.Stern. And it is dated?
Mr.Hosty. October 31, 1963. I received it on November 1.
Mr.Dulles. Do you recall whether that inconsistent statement, that inconsistency was picked up in New Orleans at this time, in the New Orleans office?
Mr.Hosty. I don't; no, sir. You meanabout——
Mr.Dulles. About marriage.
Mr.Hosty. About marriage? I picked it up when I saw it.
Mr.Dulles. At what time was that?
Mr.Hosty. November 1 when we got the report.
Mr.Stern. When you reviewed Mr. Kaack's report?
Mr.Hosty. Right.
Mr.Stern. You were aware when you read that report that hehad——
Mr.Hosty. Lied; or was inconsistent.
Mr.Stern. He had said in New Orleans that he had been married in Fort Worth, married a girl named Prossa, that he had originally told the New Orleans police that he had been born in Cuba.
Mr.Hosty. Yes.
Mr.Stern. You were aware of all these inconsistencies?
Mr.Hosty. Right.
Mr.Stern. What did these suggest to you in view of what you knew about Oswald?
Mr.Hosty. I knew that he was not telling the truth in his interview in New Orleans, because I had previously checked the background of his wife and himself, and I knew that she was born in Russia and her name was not Prossa. They were not married in Fort Worth, so I knew he was not telling the truth.
Mr.Stern. You knew that on November 1.
Mr.Hosty. Right.
Mr.Stern. And at what time did you know of Oswald's trip to Mexico City and his apparent appearance there at the Russian Embassy?
Mr.Hosty. The 25th of October.
Mr.Stern. Had you receivedany——
Mr.McCloy. Let's get these years right.
Mr.Hosty. The 25th of October 1963.
Mr.Stern. Had you received any information about any other contacts with Russian officials by Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr.Hosty. Not at that time.
Mr.Stern. What other information did you have at anytime about that?
Mr.Hosty. On November 22, after the assassination of President Kennedy, I was advised that our Washington field office of the FBI had determined that he, Lee Oswald, had been in contact with the Soviet Embassy in Washington, D.C. I learned that after the assassination.
Mr.Stern. After the assassination?
Mr.Hosty. Right, sir.
Mr.Stern. Putting that aside for the moment, what was your evaluation of Lee Harvey Oswald based on the work that you had done and the reports that you had made, the information you gathered early in November?
Mr.Hosty. Well, there were many questions to be resolved. I was quite interested in determining the nature of his contact with the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City. I had not resolved that on the 22d of November. We were still waiting to resolve that. Prior to that, I mean that would be the onlything——
Mr.Stern. What had you planned to do after November 5 about this case?
Mr.Hosty. Well, as I had previously stated, I have between 25 and 40 cases assigned to me at any one time. I had other matters to take care of. I had now established that Lee Oswald was not employed in a sensitive industry. I can now afford to wait until New Orleans forwarded the necessary papers to me to show me I now had all the information. It was then my plan to interview Marina Oswald in detail concerning both herself and her husband's background.
Mr.Stern. Had you planned any steps beyond that point?
Mr.Hosty. No. I would have to wait until I had talked to Marina to see what I could determine, and from there I could make my plans.
Mr.Stern. Did you take any action on this case between November 5 and November 22?
Mr.Hosty. No, sir.
Mr.Stern. I think we can then turn to the events of November 22, and have you tell us what transpired that day, beginning with the morning.
Mr.Hosty. All right. The first order of business from 8:15 to 9 o'clock the special agent in charge held the regular biweekly conference. Now we held a conference in our office every other Friday morning. It so happened that this was the Friday morning which we would hold this conference, at which timethe agent in charge would bring various items to our attention. Among the items he brought to our attention was the fact that President Kennedy would be in Dallas on that date.
Mr.Dulles. Who was the special agent in charge?
Mr.Hosty. Gordon Shanklin. Gordon L. Shanklin.
RepresentativeFord. How many others besides yourself were under his jurisdiction?
Mr.Hosty. About 75 agents.
RepresentativeFord. Seventy-five?
Mr.Hosty. Yes. Now only the ones at headquarters city in Dallas were present. That would be about 40 of the agents were present at this conference.
Mr. Shanklin advised us, among other things, that in view of the President's visit to Dallas, that if anyone had any indication of any possibility of any acts of violence or any demonstrations against the President, or Vice President, to immediately notify the Secret Service and confirm it in writing. He had made the same statement about a week prior at another special conference which we had held. I don't recall the exact date. It was about a week prior.
Mr.Stern. Did you know that there was going to be a motorcade on November 22?
Mr.Hosty. I found out about 9 p.m. the night before that there was to be a motorcade in downtown Dallas. I read it in the newspaper. That was the first time I knew of it.
Mr.Stern. Did you know that the motorcade would pass the School Book Depository Building?
Mr.Hosty. No, sir.
Mr.Stern. Did you know the route of the motorcade?
Mr.Hosty. No, sir.
Mr.Dulles. Had there been any contact between you or the Dallas office with the Secret Service on this point?
Mr.Hosty. On the motorcade route, sir?
Mr.Dulles. Yes.
Mr.Hosty. No.
Mr.Dulles. Had not been?
Mr.Hosty. No.
Mr.Stern. The newspaper stories did not as far as you can recall tell what the motorcade route would be?
Mr.Hosty. Yes; they did. There was a description of the motorcade route, but as I say, I didn't bother to read it in detail. I noticed that it was coming up Main Street. That was the only thing I was interested in, where maybe I could watch it if I had a chance.
Mr.Stern. So that the fact that Lee Harvey Oswald was working in the Texas School Book Depository meantnothing——
Mr.Hosty. No.
Mr.Stern. In connection with the motorcade route?
Mr.Hosty. No.
Mr.Stern. Did you think of him at all in connection with the President's trip?
Mr.Hosty. No, sir.
RepresentativeFord. Did you have any others among the cases that were assigned to you that came to your attention in reference to the President's visit?
Mr.Hosty. I did turn over one item of information to the Secret Service on the 21st; yes, sir. I did bring some matters to their attention.
There were some scurrilous pamphlets circulated around Dallas on the 21st of November. You may have seen them. It was a poster of President Kennedy with a front and a profile view saying, "Wanted for Treason." I took those pamphlets over to the Secret Service office the morning of the 21st. Then I assisted another agent in our division in giving the Secret Service some information on an individual in Denton, Tex., who had made some remarks about the President, and another member of my squad had also given some information to the Secret Service the evening of the 21st about the possibility of a demonstration at the Trade Mart against President Kennedy, some picketing.
RepresentativeFord. Do you recall to whom you gave this information?
Mr.Hosty. The one piece of information I gave, I gave to an Agent Warner of the Secret Service.
RepresentativeFord. That was the information about what?
Mr.Hosty. The pamphlets, the "Wanted for Treason" pamphlets.
RepresentativeFord. Those are the only documents or contacts you personally had?
Mr.Hosty. That I personally had, that is correct.
TheChairman. Was it a pamphlet or a dodger?
Mr.Hosty. It was, I guess you would call it a dodger.
TheChairman. Single sheet?
Mr.Hosty. Single sheet; yes, sir.
TheChairman. A single sheet, was it not?
Mr.Hosty. Yes.
TheChairman. Did you ever ascertain who put that out?
Mr.Hosty. No, sir; I never did.
TheChairman. Did you ever investigate it?
Mr.Hosty. I didn't.
TheChairman. Do you know whether your office did?
Mr.Hosty. I am not sure; no, sir.
Mr.Stern. What next occurred on the 22d, Mr. Hosty?
Mr.Hosty. All right. After the conference that lasted until about 9 a.m., I then left the office and joined an Army Intelligence agent, and an agent of the Alcohol Tax Unit of the Treasury Department. We had a conference concerning a case not related to Lee Oswald. This conference lasted most of the morning until about 11:45. At 11:45 the Army Intelligence agent and myself left, and walked over towards Main Street. The motorcade was scheduled to pass down Main Street near our office at approximately noon. I was now on my lunch hour, so I stood and watched the motorcade go by at the corner of Field and Main Street in Dallas.
After the President passed by, I then went across the street, started eating lunch. While I was eating my lunch, the waitress came up and told me she had just heard a radio report that the President and the Vice President had both been shot. I immediately stopped my lunch.
Mr.Stern. The President and the Vice President?
Mr.Hosty. That was the earliest report, that the Vice President had been shot too. These were the rumors. I then of course left the lunchroom immediately and headed back for the office, which is only a block away. I got back to the office.
One of the supervisors told me to get a radio car and get out on the street right away and I would get further instructions. I did that. I got in the car and started out. I gave the signal that I was on the air and I was told to proceed towards Parkland Hospital. Just as I got to Parkland Hospital I got a call to return to the office immediately.
Mr.Stern. Do you know why you were sent to Parkland Hospital?
Mr.Hosty. No. We were just told they wanted four cars to proceed to Parkland Hospital to stand by for further orders.
Mr.Stern. Were you told why you were ordered to return to the office?
Mr.Hosty. When I got back they told me they wanted me to start reviewing our files to see if I could develop any information, any leads at all on the possible assassin, to help out administratively in the office.
Mr.Stern. Did the case of Oswald come to your mind at that time?
Mr.Hosty. No, sir.
Mr.Stern. As apossible——
Mr.Hosty. No, sir; it was approximately 1:30 that we got the report that a police officer had been killed in the Oak Cliff area of Dallas, and that the police were surrounding a movie theatre where the suspect was allegedly located.
Shortly after 2 o'clock, we received information that this man had been captured and taken to the Dallas Police Department. One of our agents called from the Dallas Police Department and identified this man as Lee Harvey Oswald. I immediately recognized the name.
Mr.Stern. What was your reaction?
Mr.Hosty. Shock, complete surprise.
Mr.Stern. Because?
Mr.Hosty. I had no reason prior to this time to believe that he was capable or potentially an assassin of the President of the United States.
Mr.Stern. What happened next?
Mr.Hosty. I immediately got the file on Lee Oswald, and I determined that on the 21st of November this change of origin from New Orleans had arrived. It had not been routed to me as yet. It apparently arrived on the afternoon of the 21st. I got it for the first time after the assassination.
Mr.Stern. That is theadministrative——
Mr.Hosty. Administrative form showing that I was now origin, that we now had all the information on the case.
Mr.Stern. Did they send any other information with that?
Mr.Hosty. The only other thing that they sent was a photograph of Lee Oswald taken at the New Orleans Police Department when he was arrested during the summer of 1963. The report of Milton Kaack of the 31st had covered everything else.
Mr.Stern. Just to be clear, you were not waiting for this shift of administrative responsibility before you did anything?
Mr.Hosty. No; I mean if there was anything else to do, I would have gone ahead and done it.
Mr.Dulles. Was that action in Washington or New Orleans?
Mr.Hosty. New Orleans.
Mr.Stern. Had anything else arrived at your Dallas office that you were told about at that point?
Mr.Hosty. Not at that point, no; nothing had arrived then. I then took the file to the agent in charge.
Mr.Dulles. May I ask one point here?
Mr.Hosty. Yes, sir.
Mr.Dulles. From the point of view of the administration, is the New Orleans office over the Dallas office, or are they equal?
Mr.Hosty. They are equal, sir.
Mr.Dulles. They are equal?
Mr.Hosty. We have 55 offices. They are all equal.
Mr.Dulles. All equal?
Mr.Hosty. Right. There are no regional offices. I then took the file to the agent in charge, told him that we had a case on Lee Harvey Oswald. While I sat there he immediately called headquarters and advised headquarters here in Washington, D.C., that Lee Harvey Oswald was under arrest down at Dallas and had been observed shooting a police officer. They had eyewitnesses to his killing of Officer Tippit.
Mr.Stern. How do you know that?
Mr.Hosty. This had been given to us by one of our agents from the call from the Dallas Police Department who had given the information. I don't know who it was. I did not receive the call.
I sat there and assisted the agent in charge while he talked to the Bureau headquarters here. I knew the file. Of course he would need some information. I would leaf through the file and get it for him so that he could relay the pertinent information.
Then sometime after that, the agent in charge instructed me to proceed to the Dallas Police Department and to sit in on the interview of Lee Oswald, which was apparently in progress at this time. Just prior to my leaving, I was told that a communication had just come in that day from the Washington field office advising that Lee Oswald had been in contact with the Soviet Embassy in Washington, D.C.
Mr.Stern. Were you told anything more about that?
Mr.Hosty. No; I mean this is the point I was given this information. I then went and got a car and drove to the Dallas Police Department, pulled my car into the basement garage of the Dallas Police Department, parked my car.
Mr.Stern. What were conditions like?
Mr.Hosty. Very chaotic. The press was swarming all over the police station. There were television cameras being brought into the building. Many people were running, coming and going. The place was a beehive of activity.
I parked the car, got out, and started in the door of the basement, at which time I observed a Dallas police car, an unmarked car, drive in, in which there were four detectives. The man sitting on the right-hand side of the front seat next to the driver was a man I recognized as Lieutenant Revill. He signaled me that he wanted to talk to me, at which time he jumped out of the car at the head of the ramp and came over towards me. The rest of the detectives in the car continued down the ramp to be parked.
We then proceeded in, Lieutenant Revill and I proceeded into the police department and started up the stairs. Lieutenant Revill advised me that—I might add he was in a very excited state—he advised me that he had a hot lead, that he had just determined that the only employee from the Texas School Book Depository who could not be accounted for was a man named Lee.
Now this conversation took place at approximately 3 p.m., about an hour after Lee Harvey Oswald had been arrested by the Dallas Police Department. I told Lieutenant Revill that Lee Harvey Oswald had been arrested about an hour ago, that he was an employee of the Texas School Book Depository, and that he was the man who had defected to Russia and had returned to the United States in 1962.
Now either Lieutenant Revill—I don't recall if he made a statement doubting that Oswald was the one who assassinated the President, or whether it was just a look of doubt on his face, but there was doubt came into Lieutenant Revill's—at this time I stated to him that Lee Oswald was the main suspect in this case.
Now this conversation took place running up the stairs from the basement to the third floor. At this time the level of noise was very high. As I said, there were many press representatives, TV representatives, curious bystanders, police officers, everybody running all over the place.
It was not too much unlike Grand Central Station at rush hour, maybe like the Yankee Stadium during the world series games, quite noisy. We got to the head of the stairs and I left Lieutenant Revill and went into Captain Fritz' office.
Mr.Stern. Was anyone else with you and Lieutenant Revill as you came up the stairs, as you recall?
Mr.Hosty. As I say, the place was swarming with people. Just the two of us were going up the stairs together. My conversation was with Lieutenant Revill only.
Mr.Stern. I now show you a document marked for identification Commission 831, a letter dated April 27, 1964, from Director Hoover to Mr. Rankin, the General Counsel of this Commission, having attached a one-page copy of a newspaper article and an affidavit. Do you recognize this letter?
Mr.Hosty. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr.Stern. Where have you seen it?
Mr.Hosty. I have seen the file copy of this letter in the FBI files.
Mr.Stern. Do you recognize the newspaper article which is the first attachment to this letter?
Mr.Hosty. Yes, sir. It appeared in the Dallas Morning News on April 24, 1964, I believe.
Mr.Stern. And the attachment after this is?
Mr.Hosty. My affidavit.
Mr.Stern. Your affidavit of five pages?
Mr.Hosty. Of five pages, bearing my signature.
Mr.Stern. Now tell us what the reason for your making this affidavit was.
Mr.Hosty. It was to refute the story that appeared in the Dallas Morning News on April 24, 1964, to set the record straight as to what actually did take place in my conversation with Lieutenant Revill.
Mr.Stern. What did that story state?
Mr.Hosty. It stated in substance, alleged that I was aware that Lee Harvey Oswald was capable of assassinating the President of the United States, but did not dream he would do it.
Mr.Stern. Did you say that?
Mr.Hosty. No, sir. I want to state for the record at this time that I unequivocally deny ever having made the statement to Lieutenant Revill or to anyoneelse that, "We knew Lee Harvey Oswald was capable of assassinating the President of the United States, we didn't dream he would do it."
I also want to state at this time that I made no statement to Lieutenant Revill or to any other individual at any time that I or anyone else in the FBI knew that Lee Harvey Oswald was capable of assassinating the President of the United States or possessed any potential for violence.
Prior to the assassination of the President of the United States, I had no information indicating violence on the part of Lee Harvey Oswald. I wish the record to so read.
Mr.Stern. The newspaper story also mentioned another officer of the Dallas police force, V. J. "Jackie" Brian.
Mr.Hosty. I know him as Jackie Brian.
Mr.Stern. Do you know this officer?
Mr.Hosty. I know him to see him. I don't know him too well.
Mr.Stern. Do you recall whether or not he was present when you had your conversation with Lieutenant Revill?
Mr.Hosty. I don't recall him being present. I was addressing my remarks to Lieutenant Revill.
Mr.Stern. Have you heard that there was a rumor to the effect of this story at any time before this newspaper article appeared?
Mr.Hosty. About 2 weeks prior I heard a rumor, but I didn't know exactly what the story was all about. I did hear a rumor.
Mr.Stern. What was the tone and tenor of the rumor?
Mr.Hosty. That I had made some statement concerning Oswald's assassinating the President. I wasn't clear. I was never given the exact wording. It involved my conversation with Lieutenant Revill.
Mr.Stern. Have you talked to Lieutenant Revill since this news story appeared?
Mr.Hosty. No, sir; not since the news story appeared.
Mr.Stern. To Chief Curry?
Mr.Hosty. No, sir.
Mr.Stern. To any supervising official of the Dallas police force?
Mr.Hosty. No, sir.
Mr.Stern. To any newspaper reporter for any Dallas newspaper or otherwise?
Mr.Hosty. They had contacted me for comment, and I have had no comment other than the first person who called me, I denied the story. Since then I have had no comment on instructions from headquarters.
Mr.Stern. Have you reviewed your affidavit in preparation for your testimony here today?
Mr.Hosty. Yes, sir.
Mr.Stern. Is there anything you would like to add to it other than what you have already said?
Mr.Hosty. No, sir. I think it speaks for itself.
Mr.Stern. Any change you would like to make in it?
Mr.Hosty. No, sir.
TheChairman. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
TheChairman. Will you put this on the record, please?
Mr. Rankin, is there anything in the record of the Commission showing that Lieutenant Revill made a report to his superior officers concerning this statement that is alleged to have been made by Agent Hosty in this newspaper article?
Mr.Rankin. The only thing that we have is this affidavit which you will note is Commission Exhibit 709.
TheChairman. Yes.
Mr.Rankin. And it bears the date November 22, 1963, at the top, and is sworn to as of the 7th day of April 1964. That is what Chief Curry testified he received from Lieutenant Revill.
TheChairman. Has Lieutenant Revill been a witness before the Commission or has he made a statement, a deposition of any kind?
Mr.Rankin. He has not been a witness before the Commission.
Mr.Redlich. He was talked to in Dallas.
Mr.Rankin. He was a deposition witness.
TheChairman. When was that?
Mr.Rankin. I will have to check that.
TheChairman. Was it before or after this affidavit?
Mr.Rankin. I will have to check that, Mr. Chief Justice, to be sure.
TheChairman. Did he in that deposition state that Agent Hosty had made such a statement to him?
Mr.Rankin. I haven't examined the deposition. I don't know. We have the deposition now, but I have not examined it.
TheChairman. Do you know, Professor Redlich?
Mr.Redlich. Mr. Chief Justice, I asked that question, and the information I have is that he was not questioned about this particular allegation. He was questioned on other matters.
RepresentativeFord. Did he volunteer that information?
TheChairman. Yes. Is it in the deposition at all?
Mr.Redlich. To the best of my knowledge, it is not, Mr. Chief Justice.
Mr.McCloy. Don't we have the deposition here? Can't we get it?
Mr.Rankin. Mr. Chief Justice, I would like to be sure to check that before we have that on the record. I will report by morning, if that is all right, and be sure of it.
TheChairman. What was the date of this newspaper article? It isn't dated here.
Mr.Stern. The cover letter, Mr. Chief Justice, states that it appeared on April 24, 1964.
TheChairman. Do I understand that Chief Curry said that no statement of that kind had been made by Lieutenant Revill at or about the time the statement was supposed to have been made by Agent Hosty?
Mr.Rankin. I don't think his testimony was in that form, Mr. Chief Justice. It was in the form that this was given to him and there wasn't any indication that it was given as of the date of November 22 in his testimony.
TheChairman. I should like to see Lieutenant Revill's deposition.
Mr.Rankin. Mr. Redlich has gone out for it.
TheChairman. We won't delay that now. We will proceed. Go right ahead, Mr. Stern.
Mr.Stern. What happened next?
Mr.Hosty. As I said, I left Lieutenant Revill. I entered the office of Capt. Will Fritz. After a short delay, Agent James W. Bookhout and myself entered the inner office of Capt. Will Fritz of the homicide section, Dallas Police Department, where Lee Harvey Oswald was being questioned.
Mr.Stern. I show you a two-page document marked Commission No. 832 for identification. Can you identify that?
Mr.Hosty. Yes, sir. This is an interview form which I made for my interview with Lee Harvey Oswald on the 22d of November 1963. It was dictated as the form will indicate, on the 23d of November 1963.
Mr.Stern. Let me ask you there, Mr. Hosty, about your practice in reducing to formal form your notes of interviews. This happened the next day?
Mr.Hosty. Right.
Mr.Stern. Is that faster than usual because of the circumstances?
Mr.Hosty. Because of the circumstances. We have to reduce them to writing within 5 days.
Mr.Stern. In 5 days?
Mr.Hosty. Five working days.
Mr.Stern. Did you retain the notes of this?
Mr.Hosty. No. After the interview is reduced to writing, I get it back and proofread it. My notes are then destroyed because this is the record.
Mr.Stern. And in this particular instance did you destroy your notes of this?
Mr.Hosty. Yes, sir.
Mr.Stern. Now you say that you are required to reduce your notes of an interview to writing within 5 working days.
Mr.Hosty. Right.
Mr.Stern. Did that happen with respect to the interviews you conducted on October 29, November 1, and November 5?
Mr.Hosty. To make this a little clearer, this would be an interview of a subject, not of a witness, unless this witness has something that was quite pertinent to the investigation.
Routine-type matters do not have to be put on these interview forms, but pertinent interviews would be. Now everything in this case after the assassination was declared to be pertinent. All interviews, regardless of how insignificant, were to be put on these forms.
Mr.Stern. But the interviews you conducted at the beginning of November and the end of October were not within this rule?
Mr.Hosty. No; because they were not an interview of the subject or anything that contained anything of major importance.
Mr.Stern. Do you yourself destroy the notes?
Mr.Hosty. Yes.
Mr.Stern. Do you recall specifically destroying the notes of your interview?
Mr.Hosty. Yes, sir; in the wastebasket.
Mr.Stern. Your interview of Oswald, on November 22, you put the notes in the wastebasket?
Mr.Hosty. Right.
Mr.Stern. Do you recall specifically what you did with the notes of your interviews of October 29, November 1, and November 5?
Mr.Hosty. After I reduced them to writing, such as I did here, and I got the form back, I proofread it, then I threw them away.
Mr.Stern. And you testified that the notes of your end of October—early November interviews were transcribed after November 22, is that correct?
Mr.Hosty. Right.
Mr.Stern. Were the notes destroyed after you transcribed those interviews, also after November 22?
Mr.Hosty. Yes.
Mr.Stern. Did you give any consideration to retaining the notes in view of the turn that the case had taken?
Mr.Hosty. No.
Mr.Stern. The intervening assassination?
Mr.Hosty. No; because this is the record and the notes would not be as good as this record, because the notes are not written out fully as this is. It would just be abbreviations and things of that type.
Mr.Stern. And you received no instructions about retaining notes?
Mr.Hosty. No; we had no instructions. We were following the same rule we had always followed.
Mr.Stern. Why don't you tell us now, turning to your memorandum of the November 22 interview of Lee Harvey Oswald, what transpired from the time you first entered Captain Fritz' office.
Mr.Hosty. As this interview form will show, the interview commenced at 3:15 p.m. I am certain of that time because I checked my wristwatch, and Agent Bookhout checked my wristwatch. We both agreed on the time, 3:15. We came in and identified ourselves as agents of the FBI. I told Oswald my name and he reacted violently.
Mr.Stern. How do you mean?
Mr.Hosty. To both Agent Bookhout and myself. He adopted an extremely hostile attitude towards the FBI.
Mr.Stern. Was it the FBI or the name Hosty?
Mr.Hosty. Both. He reacted to the fact that we were FBI, and he made the remark to me, "Oh, so you are Hosty. I've heard about you."
He then started to cuss at us, and so forth, and I tried to talk to him to calm him down. The more I talked to him the worse he got, so I just stopped talking to him, just sat back in the corner and pretty soon he stopped his ranting and raving.
Mr.Stern. What was he saying? Please be specific.
Mr.Hosty. Well, he said, "I am going to fix you FBI," and he made some derogatory remarks about the Director and about FBI agents in general. I don't specifically recall the exact wording he used.
RepresentativeFord. Had this been the attitude that existed prior to you and Bookhout coming intothe——
Mr.Hosty. Apparently not; apparently not. I couldn't say because I wasn't in the room. We walked into the room. I immediately identified myself, told him I was with the FBI, and was a law-enforcement officer, and anything he said to me could be used against him. He did not have to talk to us.
SenatorCooper. Can you describe the tone of his voice and his manner?
Mr.Hosty. I beg your pardon, sir?
SenatorCooper. Can you describe the tone of his voice?
Mr.Hosty. He was highly excited. He was very surly, I think would be about the best way to describe him, very surly; and he was curt in his answers to us, snarled at us. That would be his general attitude.
RepresentativeFord. Did he use profanity?
Mr.Hosty. Yes, sir. I can't recall any specific statements he made, however.
Mr.McCloy. Did he complain that you had been abusing or harassing his wife in anyway?
Mr.Hosty. He made the statement, "If you want to talk to me don't bother my wife. Come and see me." He didn't say that I had abused his wife in any manner, and I hadn't. He did criticize me for talking to her. He said, "Come talk to me if you want to talk to me."
RepresentativeFord. Is that why he knew your name, because of your conversations with her?
Mr.Hosty. Yes; apparently.
Mr.Stern. Had you ever seen Oswald before?
Mr.Hosty. Not until that time. That was the first time I had seen him.
SenatorCooper. Can you remember what he said about the FBI specifically?
Mr.Hosty. He called us gestapo, secret police, we were harassing people. It was along that line. I don't recall the exact wording.
Mr.Stern. Was he handcuffed at this time?
Mr.Hosty. He was handcuffed behind him. After he calmed down he asked Captain Fritz if they could remove the handcuffs. Captain Fritz ordered one of his detectives to remove them from the rear, and they handcuffed him in front.
Mr.Stern. This happened right after you came into the room?
Mr.Hosty. Shortly after we came in the room.
Mr.Stern. Before or after his outburst?
Mr.Hosty. After his outburst; after he had calmed down.
Mr.Stern. Please continue.
Mr.Hosty. Captain Fritz actually conducted the interview. Agent Bookhout and myself sat back in the corner and observed. Captain Fritz asked Oswald if he had ever owned the rifle. He denied he had ever owned a rifle. He said that he had seen the superintendent of the School Book Depository with a rifle in his office a couple of days before the assassination, but that he had never had a rifle in the building. He then told Captain Fritz that he had been to the Soviet Union and resided there for 3 years, and he had many friends in the Soviet Union. Captain Fritz then showed him a piece of paper which had "Fair Play for Cuba" on it, and Oswald admitted to Captain Fritz that he was secretary for the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in New Orleans a few months ago.
He told Captain Fritz that the Fair Play for Cuba Committee had its headquarters in New York City. Captain Fritz then showed Oswald a marksman's medal from the Marine Corps, and Oswald admitted that this was his medal, that he had received a sharpshooter's medal while in the Marine Corps.
Mr.McCloy. Was it a sharpshooter's or a marksman's? There are two different types, you know.
Mr.Hosty. I believe it was a sharpshooter, sir. He then told Captain Fritz that he had been living at 1026 North Beckley, that is in Dallas, Tex., at 1026 North Beckley under the name O. H. Lee and not under his true name.
Oswald admitted that he was present in the Texas School Book Depository Building on the 22d of November 1963, where he had been employed since the 15th of October. Oswald told Captain Fritz that he was a laborer in this building and had access to the entire building. It had offices on the first and second floors with storage on third, fourth, fifth and sixth floors.
Oswald told Captain Fritz that he went to lunch at approximately noon onthe 22d of November, ate his lunch in the lunchroom, and had gone and gotten a Coca Cola from the Coca Cola machine to have with his lunch. He claimed that he was in the lunchroom at the time President Kennedy passed the building.
He was asked why he left the School Book Depository that day, and he stated that in all the confusion he was certain that there would be no more work for the rest of the day, that everybody was too upset, there was too much confusion, so he just decided that there would be no work for the rest of the day and so he went home. He got on a bus and went home. He went to his residence on North Beckley, changed his clothes, and then went to a movie.
Captain Fritz asked him if he always carried a pistol when he went to the movie, and he said he carried it because he felt like it. He admitted that he did have a pistol on him at the time of his arrest, in this theatre, in the Oak Cliff area of Dallas. He further admitted that he had resisted arrest and had received a bump and a cut as a result of his resisting of arrest. He then denied that he had killed Officer Tippit or President Kennedy.
Mr.Stern. The memorandum says, "Oswald frantically deniedshooting"——
Mr.Hosty. It should be emphatically, I believe, rather than frantically. I think this probably should be "emphatically denied."
Mr.Stern. Is this your memorandum?
Mr.Hosty. Yes, sir.
Mr.Stern. It is signed or initialed both by you and by Mr. Bookhout.
Mr.Hosty. Right. The procedure is that when there are two agents involved, they both must approve it, so there can be no discrepancies.
Mr.Stern. But you dictated it.
Mr.Hosty. I dictated it and he read it and we both approved it.
Mr.Stern. Have you been over it recently in preparation for your testimony?
Mr.Hosty. Yes, sir.
Mr.Stern. Is it accurate? Is there anything you would like to add to it?
Mr.Hosty. I think it is correct as it stands.
Mr.McCloy. I didn't hear you repeating your testimony that he denied ever having been in Mexico.
Mr.Hosty. Oh, yes; he was being questioned about his activities outside of the United States, where he had been outside of the United States. He told Captain Fritz that he had only been to Mexico to visit at Tijuana on the border, and then he did admit having been in Russia.
Mr.McCloy. He only admitted to having been at Tijuana in Mexico?
Mr.Hosty. Right.
Mr.McCloy. Not to Mexico City.
Mr.Hosty. Not to Mexico City; that is right.
RepresentativeFord. There was no recording made of this interrogation?
Mr.Hosty. No, sir; it was notes I took. Agent Bookhout and I took notes, and we dictated from the notes the next day.
Mr.Stern. Did you ask him any questions?
Mr.Hosty. No; like I say, he was acting in such a hostile condition towards us that we did not. This was Captain Fritz' interview anyway. We were just sitting in as observers.
Mr.Stern. Did you tell Captain Fritz at this time any of the information you had about Oswald, about his trip to Mexico, for example?
Mr.Hosty. No.
Mr.Stern. About his being in touch with the Russian authorities seeking a visa?
Mr.Hosty. No.
Mr.Stern. About his previous residence in the Soviet Union?
Mr.Hosty. Oswald himself told Captain Fritz of this. I didn't have to. Oswald came right out and told him.
Mr.Stern. About the affair in New Orleans and his arrest there?