(Discussion off the record.)
Mr.Eisenberg. Could you show us, Mr. Latona, on 641, where the fingerprint impression that you have just identified is?
Mr.Latona. That appears on one of the ends of the box indicated by a red arrow.
Mr.Eisenberg. Could you mark that arrow, "B"?
Mr.Latona. Marked "B."
Mr.Eisenberg. Mr. Dulles, would you care to take a look at that?
Mr.Latona. Here you are going to see several clear prints but it is only one that we have identified, and that is the one directly under the arrow.
Mr.Dulles. I see four there, or five.
Mr.Latona. It is the little one here in the middle, right here.
Mr.Dulles. Is it this one here, right there?
Mr.Latona. No; the one next to it.
Mr.Dulles. That one there?
Mr.Latona. That is right.
Mr.Dulles. What are all these other fingerprints?
Mr.Latona. They are all other fingerprints.
Mr.Eisenberg. There were a total of 13 identifiable prints on the box, did you say?
Mr.Latona. That is right. Those are not Oswald's prints.
RepresentativeBoggs. Those may have been other people opening the box?
Mr.Dulles. The box was carried around probably.
Mr.Latona. Yes.
Mr.Dulles. When it was first put there and moved.
Mr.Eisenberg. Could you put your finger on that box, Mr. Latona, in the way that the finger was placed?
Mr.Dulles. How do you think he was carrying that box?
Mr.Latona. I don't know.
Mr.Eisenberg. Is your finger now placed in the way the finger was placed to create the impression? It is pointing with the fingernail towards the arrow and in the same line as the arrow, with just the tip of the finger on the box.
Mr.Dulles. Everybody seems to have held that box.
Mr.Latona. It is a little one right there.
Mr.Eisenberg. Mr. Murray, do you want to take a look?
RepresentativeBoggs. You have not identified any of these others?
Mr.Latona. No.
Mr.Eisenberg. Let the record show that Commissioners Dulles and Boggs and Mr. Murray are looking at that fingerprint, and have apparently satisfiedthemselves——
Mr.Murray. The portion shown to me appears to be part of a fingerprint.
Mr.Eisenberg. They have satisfied themselves that the print is on the box.
Now, therefore, to recapitulate: You found on this carton 641 the left palmprint and the right index fingerprint of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr.Latona. That is correct.
Mr.Eisenberg. One other thing. Getting back to the palmprint, marked "A," could you show us how a hand would lie to produce that print?
Mr.Latona. In the position of the palm pointing towards the arrow.
Mr.Eisenberg. Pointing towards the arrow, that is, in the opposite direction that the arrow points?
Mr.Latona. That is right.
Mr.Eisenberg. But in the same line as the arrow. Your hand is parallel with the line but covering that completely?
Mr.Latona. Yes.
Mr.Eisenberg. And although it covers it, I would say that the arrow would fall in the midline of the palm, is that right?
Mr.Latona. That is right.
Mr.Eisenberg. Now, Mr. Latona, did you prepare a chart showing some of the points which led you to the conclusion that the latent palmprint found on 641 was identical with the inked palmprint submitted to you by the Dallas police?
Mr.Latona. I had charts prepared; yes.
Mr.Eisenberg. These were prepared under your supervision?
Mr.Latona. They were.
Mr.Eisenberg. Mr. Chairman, may I have that chart admitted as 646?
Mr.Dulles. It will be admitted.
(The chart referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 646, and received in evidence.)
Mr.Eisenberg. What is the magnification?
Mr.Latona. Approximately eight times.
Mr.Eisenberg. Is the magnification equal on both sides?
Mr.Latona. Both sides; the inked palmprint and latent palmprint both the same.
Mr.Eisenberg. Is that true of all of the charts that you have submitted and will be submitting this morning?
Mr.Latona. That is true.
Mr.Eisenberg. Mr. Latona, could you point out some of these points? I think in the interest of time it would be better if you took several of the points instead of all 13 points you have marked.
Mr.Latona. I believe you will find this will be a little bit more difficult to see in view of the fact that the ridge formations are cut up a little bit more.However——
Mr.Dulles. Would you put that over there. You have identified 13 points of similarity?
Mr.Latona. Yes; 13 have been drawn but there are quite a few others.
Mr.Eisenberg. You have marked 13 in other words, is that it, Mr. Latona?
Mr.Latona. Sir?
Mr.Eisenberg. You have marked 13?
Mr.Latona. Yes.
Mr.Dulles. On this exhibit?
Mr.Latona. That is right. Here, for example, is an easy one to show up, this point No. 1 as compared to point No. 1 here, and its relationship to point No. 2, the relationship of point No. 2 to point No. 3.
Looking over here we find that there is a relationship between points Nos. 1 and 2, one, two, three, four, five, one, two, three, four, five.
Then there's a relationship of one ridge between point 1—or rather between point 2 and point 3, both points going in the same general direction.
Point No. 3 is below point No. 2. Also the point No. 2 is what is referred to as a short ending ridge. We look over here and we see that point No. 2 is a short ending ridge.
Point No. 3 is below that. Then we notice that there is another point which is one point removed—one ridge removed—from point No. 3 which we have not charted, which shows up very definitely in that position there. Then there is point No. 4, which is another piece of a ridge, point No. 4 here.
Mr.Eisenberg. Mr. Latona, when you testify in court do you generally discuss every marked point?
Mr.Latona. No.
Mr.Eisenberg. Just the more salient points?
Mr.Latona. Just to give a general idea as to how these comparisons are made, more or less for demonstration purposes, because the actual comparison is the same, the relationship is a determination of the relationship with the others, and just by an examination, that would be borne out if each and every point was gone into in detail.
Mr.Eisenberg. With you permission, Mr. Chairman, I would like to move on to the next chart since we do have witnesses waiting who have to return to New York.
Mr.Dulles. Right.
Mr.Eisenberg. Did you prepare a chart, Mr. Latona, of thefingerprint——
Mr.Latona. Yes.
Mr.Eisenberg. Which was found on the carton 641?
Mr.Latona. Here is the chart, which is of the right index fingerprint of Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr.Eisenberg. Was this prepared by you or under your supervision?
Mr.Latona. They were. The enlargement here is approximately 10 times both in the inked print and in the latent print.
Mr.Eisenberg. Mr. Chairman, may I have this admitted as 647?
Mr.Dulles. It shall be admitted.
(The chart referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 647, and received in evidence.)
Mr.Eisenberg. Would you discuss again just a few of the more salient points, Mr. Latona?
Mr.Latona. Here, starting first of all with the apparent pattern type itself, it is readily discernible. You can see that these are what we term whorl-type prints. This point No. 1, for example, is a small ridge which terminates at this point which has been indicated by the figure No. 1.
It is related by being joined onto point No. 2, which is the end of the black line going upward. Then one ridge to the left, one ridge removed and to the left and a little bit above is point No. 3. Here the same thing occurs in the inked print.
Point No. 4 is related to point No. 3 by one ridge removed and is upward and one ridge to the left.
Mr.Dulles. And similarly you have identified up to 10 points of similarity?
Mr.Latona. These you can see rather easily that they appear.
Mr.Eisenberg. If there are no further questions on the carton 641 I will move on to another exhibit.
I now hand you a carton, somewhat larger in area than the 641 which we were just discussing, with various markings on it which I won't discuss, but which is marked Box "D" in red pencil at the upper left-hand corner of the bottom of the box.
Are you familiar with this carton, Mr. Latona?
Mr.Dulles. Has that been admitted?
Mr.Eisenberg. It has not so far been admitted.
Mr.Latona. This Box D, I received this along with Box A for purposes of examining for latent prints.
Mr.Eisenberg. Was that examined by you or under your supervision for that purpose?
Mr.Latona. Yes, it was.
Mr.Eisenberg. When was that received?
Mr.Latona. That was received on the 27th of November 1963.
Mr.Eisenberg. Mr. Chairman, may I have this admitted as 648?
Mr.Dulles. What date?
Mr.Latona. 27th.
Mr.Eisenberg. That is 5 days after the assassination?
Mr.Latona. Yes.
Mr.Eisenberg. May I have this admitted as 648?
Mr.Dulles. It shall be admitted.
(The box referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 648, and received in evidence.)
Mr.Dulles. Can you identify it in some further way? I think there are some markings on here.
Mr.Eisenberg. There is "Box D." It is a little hard to read. It says "1 40 NTH&DO"——
Mr.Dulles. "New People and Progress."
Mr.Eisenberg. Apparently referring to the name of the textbook. This is not a Rolling Reader carton.
Mr.Dulles. No.
Mr.Eisenberg. Mr. Latona, when you received this box, could you tell whether it had been previously examined for latent fingerprints?
Mr.Latona. A portion of it had.
Mr.Eisenberg. And can you tell us what portion had been?
Mr.Latona. The bottom evidently, because a piece had been cut out.
Mr.Eisenberg. You are pointing to a place on the bottom of the box which is to the left of the point at which I have affixed the sticker "Commission Exhibit No. 648," immediately to the left of that point?
Mr.Latona. That is correct.
Mr.Eisenberg. Was that portion of the box given to you?
Mr.Latona. Yes, it was.
Mr.Eisenberg. With the box?
Mr.Latona. At the time we got the box.
Mr.Eisenberg. I think I have that.
I now hand you what appears to be a portion of a cardboard carton and a piece of tape with various writings, included among which is "From top of box Oswald apparently sat on to fire gun."
Do you recognize this piece of paper, Mr. Latona?
Mr.Latona. Yes, I do. This is a piece of paper that evidently had been cut from the box.
Mr.Eisenberg. Does that fit into the box?
Mr.Latona. It does.
Mr.Eisenberg. Mr. Chairman, may I have this admitted as 649?
Mr.Dulles. It shall be admitted as 649.
(The piece of carton referred to was marked commission exhibit no. 649, and received in evidence.)
Mr.Eisenberg. Mr. Latona, did you find any identifiable prints on the cardboard carton 648?
Mr.Latona. Yes; in addition to this one which has been cut out and which had been covered by a piece of lifting tape, there were two fingerprints developed in addition to that one.
Mr.Eisenberg. Two Identifiable Fingerprints?
Mr.Latona. That is right.
Mr.Eisenberg. Palmprints?
Mr.Latona. No; they were fingerprints.
Mr.Eisenberg. I mean were there any palmprints?
Mr.Latona. There were no palmprints.
Mr.Eisenberg. How did you process this box?
Mr.Latona. By the use of iodine fumes and silver nitrate solution.
Mr.Eisenberg. Did you find evidence of processing prior to your receipt apart from the exhibit which is now 649?
Mr.Latona. Yes; this particular area which has been cut out had been processed with powder.
Mr.Eisenberg. Was there powder on other areas of the box?
Mr.Latona. I don't believe there was.
Mr.Eisenberg. Did you identify any of the prints on the carton 648 as belonging to a specific individual?
Mr.Latona. The two fingerprints which were developed on commission exhibit 648 by silver nitrate are not identified as anyone's, but the print which appears on the piece which was cut out has been identified.
Mr.Eisenberg. That is 649?
Mr.Latona. Of exhibit 648—which is exhibit649——
Mr.Eisenberg. Yes?
Mr.Latona. Which came from exhibit 648 has been identified as a palmprint of Harvey Lee Oswald, the right palmprint.
Mr.Eisenberg. That is Lee Harvey Oswald, Mr. Latona?
Mr.Latona. That is right. Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr.Eisenberg. Now, Mr. Latona, can you tell how this was developed, this print on 649?
Mr.Latona. The appearance is it was developed with black powder.
Mr.Eisenberg. You testified before concerning the aging of fingerprints. Considering the material on which this print was developed, 649, do you think you could form an opinion, any opinion at all, concerning the freshness or staleness of this print?
Mr.Latona. Bearing in mind the fact that this is an absorbent material, and realizing, of course, that a print when it is left on a material of this type it starts to soak in. Now, the reason that we in the FBI do not use powder is because of the fact that in a short period of time the print will soak in so completely that there won't be any moisture left.
Accordingly when you brush powder across there won't be anything developed.
Under circumstances, bearing in mind that here the box was powdered, and a print was developed with powder, the conclusion is that this is comparatively a fresh print. Otherwise, it would not have developed.
We know, too, that we developed two other fingerprints on this by chemicals. How long a time had elapsed since the time this print was placed on there until the time that it would have soaked in so that the resulting examination would have been negative I don't know, but that could not have been too long.
Mr.Eisenberg. When you say "not too long," would you say not 3 weeks, or not 3 days, or not 3 hours?
Mr.Latona. Very definitely I'd say not 3 days. I'd say not 3 weeks.
Mr.Eisenberg. And not 3 days, either?
Mr.Latona. No; I don't believe so, because I don't think that the print on here that is touched on a piece of cardboard will stay on a piece of cardboard for 3 days.
Mr.Eisenberg. Would you bring that any closer?
Mr.Latona. I am afraid I couldn't come any closer.
Mr.Eisenberg. 3 days?
Mr.Latona. That is right.
Mr.Eisenberg. That would be the outermost limit that you can testify concerning?
Mr.Latona. We have run some tests, and usually a minimum of 24 hours on a material of this kind, depending upon how heavy the sweat was, to try to say within a 24-hour period would be a guess on my part.
Mr.Eisenberg. I am not sure I understand your reference to a minimum of 24 hours.
Mr.Latona. We have conducted tests with various types of materials as to how long it could be before we would not develop a latent print.
Mr.Eisenberg. Yes?
Mr.Latona. Assuming that the same print was left on an object or a series of similar prints were left on an object, and powdering them, say, at intervals of every 4 hours or so, we would fail to develop a latent print of that particular type on that particular surface, say, within a 24-hour period.
Mr.Eisenberg. So that is a maximum of 24 hours?
Mr.Latona. That is right.
Mr.Eisenberg. You would not care, you say,though——
Mr.Latona. No.
Mr.Eisenberg. To employ that here, but your experiments produced a maximum time of 24 hours.
Mr.Latona. Bear that out; yes. Like I say, undoubtedly this print was left on there—between the time that the print was left and the time that it was powdered could not have been too long a time. Otherwise, the print would not have developed with the clarity that it did.
Mr.Eisenberg. You identified that, I believe, as the right palmprint of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr.Latona. That is right.
Mr.Eisenberg. What portion of the right palm was that, Mr. Latona?
Mr.Latona. It happens to be the center part of the palm close to the wrist.
Mr.Eisenberg. Can you show how the palm must have lain on the 649, the part of the 648 carton, to produce that print?
Mr.Latona. It would have been placed on there in this fashion.
Mr.Eisenberg. Now, you are pointing so that your hand is parallel with the long axis of the box, and at right angles to the short axis?
Mr.Latona. Yes.
Mr.Eisenberg. And just the bottom of the palm rests on the box, isn't that correct?
Mr.Latona. That is right.
Mr.Eisenberg. Now, before going to this fingerprint or this palmprint rather, Mr. Latona, we have palmprints, a palmprint here on this 649, and a finger and a palm on 641, and those are the only identified prints on these two objects.
Is it possible that Lee Harvey Oswald could have touched these two cartons at other places without leaving identifiable prints?
Mr.Latona. He could have.
Mr.Eisenberg. And how would that come about?
Mr.Latona. Simply by the fact that he did not have any material on his finger at the time he touched the box.
Mr.Eisenberg. So that you can touch a carton at one point and leave a print, and at another point not, is that right?
Mr.Latona. Very definitely, that is true.
Mr.Eisenberg. And when you say he doesn't have any material, how would that come about? Will he have used his material up, or not produced material with the particular finger?
Mr.Latona. He could have used it up and failed to produce it fast enough to have left anything at the time he touched that.
Mr.Eisenberg. Is it uncommon or common for you to find an object which a person has touched more than once but only left one identifiable print?
Mr.Latona. It is very common.
Mr.Eisenberg. It is common?
Mr.Latona. Especially in, for example, the reading of a letter, a long letter where the person would run his finger and index finger down the edges. You might find prints at the top and then you don't find any at the bottom.
Mr.Eisenberg. Of course. I am not asking you to draw an inference whether or not Oswald touched the box in more than one place, but I just want to explore whether he could have touched the box in more than oneplace——
Mr.Latona. Yes; he could.
Mr.Eisenberg. And not left a second imprint?
Mr.Latona. He very definitely could have and not left one.
Mr.Dulles. May I add for the record, Commission Exhibit 648 apparently contained books of Scott Foresman and Co., from Scott, Foresman & Co., "Building for Today, Pioneering for Tomorrow."
Mr.Eisenberg. Mr. Latona, did you take a photograph of the lift, or the print rather, which we see in 649?
Mr.Latona. Yes.
Mr.Eisenberg. And this is an accurate photograph?
Mr.Latona. It is, it is a true reproduction of the print which appears on Commission Exhibit 649 and it is enlarged about a time and a half.
Mr.Eisenberg. Mr. Chairman, may I have this admitted as 650?
Mr.Dulles. It will be admitted.
(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 650, for identification and received in evidence.)
Mr.Eisenberg. Did you take a photograph of the known palmprint and make a red circle around it, as you had in previous cases?
Mr.Latona. Yes.
Mr.Eisenberg. To show what portion of the palm of Oswald that was?
Mr.Latona. Showing a portion of the right palm.
Mr.Eisenberg. Mr. Chairman, may I have that admitted?
Mr.Dulles. It will be admitted as 651.
(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 651, and received in evidence.)
Mr.Eisenberg. By the way, Mr. Latona, on 649 there seems to be a scotch tape or cellophane tape over the fingerprint, is that right?
Mr.Latona. That is right.
Mr.Eisenberg. Now, apparently there was no attempt at a lift being made here?
Mr.Latona. No. This evidently was a print which was developed directly on the paper itself. The employing of that adhesive material like scotch tape was to protect the print itself.
Had they tried to lift that up I am afraid they would have spoiled that because they would have lifted the fibers of the cardboard along with it.
Mr.Eisenberg. Is that why, you think, they didn't lift it?
Mr.Latona. Yes; very definitely.
Mr.Eisenberg. By the way, did the Dallas police take photographs of the lift which we had earlier, the lift which was apparently taken from Exhibit 139, or to put the question—actually I am not interested in whether they took photographs of the lift; do you know whether they took photographs of the print?
Mr.Latona. I don't know.
Mr.Eisenberg. Is it normal to take a photograph of a print before it is lifted?
Mr.Latona. If it is fairly visible, yes.
Mr.Eisenberg. What is the purpose of the lift, as opposed to a photograph reproducing the print?
Mr.Latona. The purpose of the lift is simply to insure the probability of getting a good record of the print, because a lot of times when you photograph a print, you have to go through the process of having it developed and then printed and at the same time by lifting it you may, that would be an additional security that you are getting the best results.
Then you take your choice as to which result turns out the best.
Mr.Eisenberg. So these are alternative routes?
Mr.Latona. That is right.
Mr.Eisenberg. Lifting and photographing?
Mr.Latona. That is right. Well, primarily our recommendation in the FBI is simply every procedure to photograph and then lift. Then you choose the one which you feel gives you the best results in your final photograph.
Mr.Eisenberg. Returning to the palmprint on 649, taken from the carton 648, did you make up a chart showing some of thepoints——
Mr.Latona. Yes.
Mr.Eisenberg. Which led you to your conclusion that that print was the print of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr.Latona. Yes, I did.
Mr.Eisenberg. And was that prepared by you or under your supervision?
Mr.Latona. Prepared by me—under my supervision.
Mr.Eisenberg. May I have this chart admitted as 652?
Mr.Dulles. It will be admitted as Exhibit 652.
(The chart referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 652, for identification and received in evidence.)
Mr.Eisenberg. Again, without going into detail, Mr. Latona, could you show us some of the more salient points which led you to your conclusion that the print on 649 was the palmprint of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr.Latona. The easiest points visible here, right offhand, point No. 11 which is a black line that goes upward and its relationship to point No. 10. This is known as the short ending ridge as is seen here. Its relation to point No. 8. Point No. 11 is a black line going upward. Point No. 8 is a black line going downward and there are one, two, three, ridges which are between the two. Over here in the latent print you find No. 11 which is a black line going upward. It is a short line to the other end of the point No. 10, and three ridges intervene between that and point No. 8, which is going downward.
One ridge to the right and going in an upward direction is point No. 7—7, 8, 9, 10, 11.
Mr.Dulles. And you identified 11 points of similarity?
Mr.Latona. That is right.
Mr.Dulles. Between the inked palmprint of Lee Harvey Oswald and this palmprint taken from this cardboard carton?
Mr.Latona. That is right.
Mr.Dulles. What is this white line that goes up through each?
Mr.Latona. This is a crease in the center of the palm, a flexure crease of that area.
Mr.Dulles. The palm did not touch the carton at that point?
Mr.Latona. That is right.
Mr.Dulles. And those two creases are in approximately the same location in the photograph and in the latent palmprint?
Mr.Latona. Very definitely.
Mr.Eisenberg. Mr. Latona, I now hand you two further cartons, which are labeled Box B and Box C, the B box being a 10 Rolling Reader, and the C box being also a Scott, Foresman box with printing on the back, "The Three Pre-primers," apparently the name of the book contained in this box.
Mr.Dulles. Primers.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr.Eisenberg. Mr. Latona, did you examine Box B, which I have handed to you, to determine whether it had on it any identifiable latent fingerprints?
Mr.Latona. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr.Eisenberg. Mr. Chairman, I would like that box admitted as 653.
Mr.Dulles. It shall be admitted.
(Commission Exhibit No. 653 was marked and received in evidence.)
Mr.Eisenberg. How many identifiable prints did you find on this carton?
Mr.Latona. There were seven fingerprints and two palmprints developed on Commission Exhibit 653.
Mr.Eisenberg. That is, identifiable prints?
Mr.Latona. Identifiable prints.
Mr.Eisenberg. Did you identify any of those prints as belonging to a specific person?
Mr.Latona. I did not.
Mr.Eisenberg. May I have 654 marked, Box C, Mr. Chairman? Did you also examine Box C?
Mr.Latona. Box C, yes, sir.
Mr.Eisenberg. May I have that admitted as 654?
Mr.Dulles. It shall be admitted as Commission Exhibit 654.
(Commission Exhibit No. 654 was marked and received in evidence.)
Mr.Eisenberg. Did you find any latent identifiable prints on 654?
Mr.Latona. I found two fingerprints and one palmprint.
Mr.Eisenberg. Did you identify them as belonging to a specific individual?
Mr.Latona. I did not identify them.
Mr.Eisenberg. Now, did you attempt to identify them with Lee Harvey Oswald's known prints?
Mr.Latona. Yes; and they are not Lee Harvey Oswald's prints.
Mr.Eisenberg. When did you receive cartons 653 and 654?
Mr.Latona. I received cartons 653 and 654 November 27.
Mr.Eisenberg. That is, with the earlier cartons, Boxes A and D, which have received Commission exhibit numbers?
Mr.Latona. Yes.
Mr.Eisenberg. Had they been processed? Could you tell whether they had been processed for latent fingerprints?
Mr.Latona. I couldn't tell whether they had been or not.
Mr.Eisenberg. You could not tell?
Mr.Latona. Could not tell. They had the appearance of not having been processed.
Mr.Eisenberg. How did you process them in your laboratory, Mr. Latona?
Mr.Latona. Iodine fumes and chemicals.
Mr.Eisenberg. Did the prints react to the iodine fumes at all?
Mr.Latona. No.
Mr.Eisenberg. Just to the chemicals?
Mr.Latona. The silver nitrate prints which were developed.
Mr.Dulles. Do you mean that the prints were of such a caliber and character that you couldn't make anything out of them, or that you couldn't identify them with anyknown——
Mr.Latona. They are not identical with those that they have been compared with.
Mr.Dulles. But the prints themselves were perfectly good prints?
Mr.Latona. Oh, yes; the prints are good but they are not Lee Harvey Oswald's.
Mr.Eisenberg. At any subsequent time have you attempted to identify any of these prints on the boxes as belonging to any person other than Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr.Latona. Yes.
Mr.Eisenberg. And how did you proceed with this attempt?
Mr.Latona. An effort was made to locate the fingerprints of all people employed in that building in which these cartons were found, on the basis of the names and birth dates which were furnished, and we located the fingerprints of 16 of those people who work in that building.
Mr.Eisenberg. Yes?
Mr.Latona. And the fingerprints of those 16 employees were compared with all of the latent prints which were developed on these boxes. They do not belong to any of those 16 people.
Mr.Dulles. May I ask for my information here, Mr. Eisenberg, were all of these cartons, including the last two admitted in evidence, were they found in the general area of the sixth floor of the building from which it is believed the shot was fired?
Mr.Eisenberg. Yes; Mr. Chairman. I believe that the two boxes which were just admitted into evidence as 653 and 654 were two of the three boxes which were apparently used as a rest by the assassin. They were apparently either the two bottom boxes, or there might have been an arrangement such as that one was stacked on top of the other, and the box earlier admitted into evidence was some evidence of that.
Mr.Dulles. And in any event, does our evidence indicate that these boxes were moved from their normal position on the sixth floor to a new position near the window?
Mr.Eisenberg. Again I believe it does indicate that at least the 10 Rolling Reader carton was moved. There was some other movement of boxes that morning, and I think they are still in the process of tracing down all of the movements.
Mr.Dulles. Thank you.
Mr.Eisenberg. I have a letter, Mr. Latona, from Mr. Hoover to Mr. Rankin, the general counsel of our Commission, setting forth the names of the employees of the TSBD whose prints were compared in this recent attempt you mentioned. Would you recognize the names?
Mr.Latona. Yes; I would because I believe that report is based on my report.
Mr.Eisenberg. If I read the name could you verify whether these individuals were the ones whose prints you checked out against the latents?
Mr.Latona. Yes.
Mr.Eisenberg. Haddon Spurgeon Aiken?
Mr.Latona. Yes.
Mr.Eisenberg. Jack Charles Cason?
Mr.Latona. Yes.
Mr.Eisenberg. Warren Cason?
Mr.Latona. Yes.
Mr.Eisenberg. Jack Edwin Doughterty?
Mr.Latona. Yes.
Mr.Eisenberg. Charles Douglas Givens?
Mr.Latona. Yes.
Mr.Eisenberg. Mary Madeline Hollis?
Mr.Latona. Yes.
Mr.Eisenberg. James Earl Jarman?
Mr.Latona. Yes.
Mr.Eisenberg. Spaulden Earnest Jones?
Mr.Latona. Yes.
Mr.Eisenberg. Herbert L. Junker?
Mr.Latona. Yes.
Mr.Eisenberg. Billy Nolan Lovelady?
Mr.Latona. Yes.
Mr.Eisenberg. Joe R. Molina?
Mr.Latona. Yes.
Mr.Eisenberg. Edward Shields?
Mr.Latona. Yes.
Mr.Eisenberg. Joyce Maurine Stansberg?
Mr.Latona. Yes.
Mr.Eisenberg. Roy Sansom Truly?
Mr.Latona. Yes.
Mr.Eisenberg. Lloyd R. Viles?
Mr.Latona. Yes.
Mr.Eisenberg. Troy Eugene West?
Mr.Latona. Correct.
Mr.Eisenberg. Now as I understand it, these employees were not selected because any particular suspicion fell on them, but merely because of all the employees, those were the ones whose cards you knew you had in your files?
Mr.Latona. That is right.
Mr.Eisenberg. And it was justaccidental——
Mr.Latona. That is right.
Mr.Eisenberg. That those employees were picked?
Mr.Latona. That is right.
Mr.Eisenberg. There is no inference that there was any suspicion whatsoever attaching to any of these employees?
Mr.Latona. That is right.
Mr.Dulles. We believe all these employees had access to the sixth floor of the building?
Mr.Eisenberg. We are still looking into that question. This is a recent effort on your part?
Mr.Latona. Yes.
Mr.Dulles. Is that letter to be admitted as evidence or not?
Mr.Eisenberg. I thinknot——
Mr.Dulles. Right.
Mr.Eisenberg. Since I don't think the witness could identify the actual letter.
Mr.Dulles. It will be in the files, though?
Mr.Eisenberg. Yes; it is a Commission document in the files.
Mr. Latona, I believe that out of the total number of six prints you have identified today as being Lee Harvey Oswald's, four were palmprints, is that correct?
Mr.Latona. Three.
Mr.Eisenberg. Three?
Mr.Latona. Three, two rights and one left, three palms and three fingers.
Mr.Eisenberg. There was a palmon——
Mr.Latona. The bag.
Mr.Eisenberg. A palm on the weapon?
Mr.Latona. One on the gun and on this box.
Mr.Eisenberg. Four and two then?
Mr.Latona. Three.
Mr.Eisenberg. There was a palm on each box?
Mr.Latona. That is right.
Mr.Eisenberg. That is two palms?
Mr.Latona. One off the gun.
Mr.Eisenberg. That is three palms, and the palm on the wrapping paper bag. Here is the wrapping paper bag.
Mr.Latona. One palm and one finger.
Mr.Eisenberg. That is four palms all together?
Mr.Latona. Four palms, okay.
Mr.Eisenberg. Is that correct?
Mr.Latona. Yes.
Mr.Eisenberg. Now, is the proportion of recovered fingerprints here an unusual one in your estimation? That is, we usually hear about fingerprints rather than palmprints, whereas here we have four palm and two finger prints. Is there anything unusual in this?
Mr.Latona. Well, in that manner there is because—well no, I guess not. It is just as logical to assume that a person will leave a palmprint as a fingerprint. It depends upon primarily the way he handles it. Objects of this type being so large you can probably expect to get a palmprint.
Mr.Dulles. And what he is handling?
Mr.Latona. That is right. On the other hand, if the object is small there is probably no reason for the palm to touch it. For example, in a rearview mirror; ordinarily on a rearview mirror of these stolen cars we process you get mostly fingerprints.
On the other hand if you get back into the trunk, the chances of something of a large nature, a stolen wheel, or something of that type, you will get finger and palm prints. Cartons like this, where you have to use both hands to pick it up because of its weight, the probability is that you will get a palmprint as well as a fingerprint.
Mr.Eisenberg. Would the same thing be true of a heavy rifle?
Mr.Latona. Sure, very definitely.
Mr.Eisenberg. And if the bag contained a heavy object inside?
Mr.Latona. That is right, it would take more than just the finger area of the hand to hold on to it.
Mr.Eisenberg. Mr. Latona, did you prepare at my request a series of photographs for transmission by me to the New York City Police Department—photographs of finger and palm prints found on some of the evidence we have been looking at?
Mr.Latona. I furnished you photographs of all of the remaining unidentified latent prints from these cartons.
Mr.Eisenberg. And also did you furnish me a photograph—just of the remaining unidentified prints?
Mr.Latona. No; including the ones which I identified.
Mr.Eisenberg. Did you also furnish me with a photograph of the two prints you identified—which parenthetically were the only two identifiable prints—on the brown wrapping paper bag?
Mr.Latona. Yes.
Mr.Eisenberg. Which is Exhibit 142. And of the lift from the weapon 139?
Mr.Latona. Yes; I did.
Mr.Eisenberg. And you also furnished me with photographs of the finger and palmprints of Lee HarveyOswald——
Mr.Latona. Yes.
Mr.Eisenberg. As transmitted to you by the Dallas office of the FBI?
Mr.Latona. Yes.
Mr.Eisenberg. Can you identify these as the photographs you furnished to me?
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr.Eisenberg. Have you identified the envelope marked "two photos Box D"?
Mr.Latona. Yes; I have.
Mr.Eisenberg. Mr. Chairman, may I have that admitted as 655?
Mr.Dulles. Yes.
(Commission Exhibit No. 655 was marked and received in evidence.)
Mr.Dulles. I think there ought to be some cross-identification inside the envelope. Because obviously if you take that envelope and put anything in it, we ought to have the others identified properly.
Mr.Eisenberg. There are two photographs within this. Let the record show there are two photographs within this envelope, marked "7" and "13," and I believe these are the only photographs so marked. Each photograph is marked with an individual number, so these are the only two photographs in the entire set marked "7" and "13."
Mr.Dulles. Excellent.
Mr.Eisenberg. Now I have an envelope marked "10 photos Box A." Have you identified these photographs Mr. Latona?
Mr.Latona. Yes; I have.
Mr.Eisenberg. May I have these photographs admitted as group 656?
Mr.Dulles. It shall be.
(Commission Exhibit No. 656 was marked and received in evidence.)
Mr.Dulles. How many enclosures in that?
Mr.Eisenberg. There are 10 enclosures and numbered as follows: 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 34, 35.
Mr.Dulles. There is no 33?
Mr.Eisenberg. No, sir.
Mr.Dulles. It shall be admitted as CommissionExhibit——
Mr.Eisenberg. 656.
Mr.Dulles. That is 656 with the enclosures as noted and identified.
Mr.Eisenberg. I have here photographs—an envelope—labeled "Photographs, Fingerprints, and Palmprints, Lee Harvey Oswald." These are accurate reproductions?
Mr.Latona. They are.
Mr.Eisenberg. Mr. Chairman, with your permission I will later put subnumbers on these.
Mr.Dulles. Seven numbers with seven enclosures?
Mr.Eisenberg. No, sir; three enclosures.
Mr.Dulles. With three enclosures?
Mr.Eisenberg. And I will number the 10-print card—first may I have the envelope with the photographs admitted as 657?
Mr.Dulles. The envelope shall be admittedwith——
Mr.Eisenberg. I will subnumber the cards with your permission at a later time.
Mr.Dulles. How many enclosures in it, three?
Mr.Eisenberg. Three. I will subnumber the 10-print card 657-A, the right palm 657-B, and left palm 657-C.
Mr.Dulles. It shall be admitted.
(Commission Exhibits Nos. 657-A, 657-B, and 657-C were marked, and received in evidence.)
Mr.Eisenberg. I have an envelope with photos marked "one photo of lift 'underside of gun barrel.'" Is this a photograph which you provided me?
Mr.Latona. It is.
Mr.Eisenberg. May I have this admitted as 658, Mr. Chairman?
Mr.Dulles. 658 with how many enclosures?
Mr.Eisenberg. Just one.
Mr.Dulles. Just one enclosure.
(Commission Exhibit No. 658 was marked, and received in evidence.)
Mr.Eisenberg. Now, an envelope marked "two photos brown bag (wrapping paper)."
This is the two photos, Mr. Latona, which you gave to me?
Mr.Latona. It is.
Mr.Eisenberg. May I have that admitted as 659, Mr. Chairman?
Mr.Dulles. It shall be admitted as 659 with one enclosure in the envelope. Is it one or two?
Mr.Eisenberg. There are two enclosures.
Mr.Dulles. With two in the envelope.
Mr.Eisenberg. One has printing on it and with your permission I will mark that "659-A," and the other has no printing and I will mark it "659-B."
Mr.Dulles. It will be so admitted.
(Commission Exhibits Nos. 659-A and 659-B were marked, and received in evidence.)
Mr.Eisenberg. Now an envelope marked "eight photos Box B." This is, Mr. Latona, the photographs you provided me?
Mr.Latona. It is.
Mr.Eisenberg. May I have this admitted as Exhibit 660, Mr. Chairman, collectively?
Mr.Dulles. It shall be admitted as Commission Exhibit No. 660with——
Mr.Eisenberg. With eightenclosures——
Mr.Dulles. Eight enclosures.
Mr.Eisenberg. Marked "15"—the next one has 17 scratched out and also 18 appearing on it—19 for the third enclosure, 20, 21, 22, 23, and 24.
Mr.Dulles. With the numbers as indicated in the record.
(Commission Exhibit No. 660 was marked, and received in evidence.)
Mr.Eisenberg. And finally an envelope of the same size, marked "three photos, Box C." Mr. Latona, these are the photos you gave me?
Mr.Latona. Yes; they are.
Mr.Eisenberg. May I have these admitted as 661, Mr. Chairman?
Mr.Dulles. It will be admitted as Exhibit 661, with how many enclosures?
Mr.Eisenberg. There are three enclosures.
Mr.Dulles. And the three enclosures; are they identified in any way?
Mr.Eisenberg. Yes, sir; they are subnumbered 10, 11 and 12.
Mr.Dulles. With the subnumbers 10, 11 and 12.
(Commission Exhibit No. 661 was marked, and received in evidence.)
Mr.Eisenberg. Are all these photographs accurate reproductions of the prints appearing on the objects whose name is on the front of the envelope in which the photographs are stored?
Mr.Latona. They are.
Mr.Eisenberg. They were taken by you or under your supervision?
Mr.Latona. They were.
Mr.Eisenberg. Can you identify by number, Mr. Latona, the photographs of box A which contain prints of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr.Latona. I will have to do it in a negative fashion and tell you that it is not 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, or 35.
Mr.Eisenberg. Then it would be No. 25 which is in that sequence?
Mr.Latona. Yes.
Mr.Eisenberg. And did you mention 34?
Mr.Latona. I did not.
Mr.Eisenberg. So 34 would also be an identified print in that sequence?
Mr.Latona. That is right.
Mr.Eisenberg. Did you print anything on the back of these photographs, Mr. Latona?
Mr.Latona. At the time I gave you the photographs I marked nothing on them.
Mr.Eisenberg. So that any printing here would have been put on subsequent to the time you prepared them?
Mr.Latona. That is correct.
Mr.Eisenberg. Referring specifically to a photograph I take at random, which is No. 35, is this your handwriting?
Mr.Latona. It is not.
Mr.Eisenberg. None of the printing appearing on the back of that photograph?
Mr.Latona. It is not.
Mr.Eisenberg. Let the record state that, as will be dealt with later, this printing was put on by Mr. Mandella of the New York Police Department. Now in the case of box D, of which there are two photographs, 7 and 13, could you state which was the photograph of Oswald's print?
Mr.Latona. Thirteen.
Mr.Eisenberg. Just to reiterate, in no case did you put writing on the back of these photographs?
Mr.Latona. I did not.
Mr.Eisenberg. Mr. Latona, did anyone else in the FBI examine the objects which you have been discussingtoday——
Mr.Latona. Yes.
Mr.Eisenberg. To determine whether the fingerprints of Lee Harvey Oswald appeared on them?
Mr.Latona. Yes.
Mr.Eisenberg. What was that person's name?
Mr.Latona. His name is Ronald G. Wittmus.
Mr.Eisenberg. Was his examination conducted independently of yours?
Mr.Latona. It was.
Mr.Eisenberg. Who conducted the examination first?
Mr.Latona. In the case of the wrapping paper, I did. In the case of the boxes I believe he did.
Mr.Eisenberg. And the rifle?
Mr.Latona. I conducted the examination of the rifle.
Mr.Eisenberg. The lift from the rifle?
Mr.Latona. Yes; directly.
Mr.Eisenberg. Andthe——
Mr.Latona. Brown wrapping paper.
Mr.Eisenberg. In any case when you conducted your examination first did you tell Wittmus of your conclusions?
Mr.Latona. I did not.
Mr.Eisenberg. When Mr. Wittmus conducted his examination first did he tell you of his conclusions?
Mr.Latona. No.
Mr.Eisenberg. Were his conclusions the same as yours?
Mr.Latona. Ultimately, yes.
Mr.Eisenberg. When you say, "ultimately"?
Mr.Latona. When the whole thing was completed.
Mr.Dulles. There was no difference of views between you at any stage?
Mr.Latona. No, sir.
Mr.Eisenberg. Did anyone who examined these various objects—as to whichyou have testified—in the FBI laboratory come to a conclusion different from the one you did?
Mr.Latona. They did not.
Mr.Eisenberg. Were there any identifications of fingerprints as being Lee Harvey Oswald's in addition to the ones which you have given us?
Mr.Latona. There were a number of identifications effected with latent prints developed on personal effects.
Mr.Eisenberg. No, sir; on the material you have testified as to today.
Mr.Latona. No; there were no others.
Mr.Eisenberg. Were any prints found—were the three fragmentary prints found on the rifle, which were not sufficient for purposes of identification, in any way inconsistent with the prints of Oswald which you found?
Mr.Latona. Very definitely, no. I might point out that actually what was visible was consistent, in the sense that even though there were no ridge formations available for purposes of making a positive conclusion, the indications were that the pattern types were there, were consistent with the pattern types which were on the hands of Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr.Dulles. As far as you know the conclusions of the Texas police authorities who examined these objects, were your conclusions the same as theirs, or was there any differences between you on this subject?
Mr.Latona. Frankly, I don't know what there conclusion was.