Mr.Curry. I was not present when this happened. This was told to me, I think Captain Fritz told me this, and he seemed to gather that he had more or less sort of browbeat her in interrogating her is what Fritz, the impression that Fritz got.
Mr.McCloy. When was that? Do you have any reason to know—Captain Fritz will perhaps tell us about it—as to when that interrogation of Hosty and Mrs. Oswald took place?
Mr.Curry. No, sir.
Mr.McCloy. You don't take normally any tape recordings of witnesses' examinations?
Mr.Curry. No, sir.
Mr.McCloy. I guess that is all, except the general question I have of Chief Curry. Do you know anything else with respect to this whole matter that you think would be of any help to this Commission in getting at the facts?
Mr.Curry. Not that I know of, except to say we were extremely sorry that, of course, this thing happened in Dallas. We thought we were taking every normal precaution that we could take to insure the safety of the President in cooperating with the Secret Service and all other agencies and we felt like we had done a good job.
After the assassination and the murder of our officer, that our officers had done a good job in making a quick apprehension of the alleged person guilty of this, and that we will have to admit that although we thought that adequate precautions had been taken for the transfer of this prisoner, that one of our officers momentarily stepped away from his post of duty, and that during this moment of negligence on his part, as far as we could determine Ruby went down the ramp, the Main Street ramp, and concealed himself behind some news media and detectives and as Oswald was brought out he stepped forward and shot him.
And if we had it to do over again, and I think this, that some policy should be set up for the news media, whereby if anything of this magnitude ever occurs again, that we would not be plagued by the confusion present that was present at that time, and that the news media should accept some of the responsibility for these things and agree among themselves to have representatives that can report back to them.
Mr.Rankin. Chief Curry, I am not quite clear about the situation with regard to your practices in the police force, and the news media. I understand what happened, as you described it at the time of the episodes that we have been going into, and I understand that you would, if there was a matter of this magnitude again—you would expect and want a very different change?
Mr.Curry. Yes.
Mr.Rankin. And eliminate the interference by the news media?
Mr.Curry. That is right.
Mr.Rankin. But what do you do now about the ordinary case? Have you changed your practices about the media at all?
Mr.Curry. Not the ordinary cases; no.
Mr.Rankin. And do they use the radio and TV in the police headquarters?
Mr.Curry. Yes, sir; they do.
Mr.Rankin. And they, the reporters, come in, and it is just the difference between a great many?
Mr.Curry. And a few is what made the difference in this.
Mr.McCloy. Do you permit reporters now to come in and interrogate prisoners as they did in this case by holding a microphone up to their mouth and saying, "How did you do it?"
Mr.Curry. They do the same as they do here; on the way from the interrogation room to the jail elevator as they pass by they might run along and ask him questions and try to get him to answer.
Mr.Rankin. That could be done today just the same?
Mr.Curry. Yes, sir. Because we have no way of keeping them out of the public halls.
Mr.Rankin. Don't you have jurisdiction as chief of police to exclude them if you thought it was the wise thing to do?
Mr.Curry. Yes. Now if I had it to do over again, of course, I would exclude it.
Mr.Rankin. And you could do it today in the ordinary case if you wanted to?
Mr.Curry. I would probably have my hide taken off by the news media, but I could do it.
Mr.Rankin. So, it is really a problem of weighing what the media will do to you against other considerations?
Mr.Curry. And this, too; it seemed like there was a great demand by the general public to know what was going on.
Mr.Rankin. Yes. And that is what you were trying to satisfy?
Mr.Curry. That is what I was trying to do.
Mr.Rankin. Those are all the questions.
Mr.McCloy. I don't think I have anything else.
Mr.Rankin. Thank you very much, Chief, for all of your help.
Mr.Curry. Thank you for your consideration.
Mr.Rankin. I want to offer the Exhibits 701 through 708, both inclusive.
Mr.McCloy. They may be admitted.
(Commission Exhibits Nos. 701 through 708 were received in evidence.)
Mr.McCloy. You know the purpose of what we are here for, captain?
Mr.Fritz. I think so.
Mr.McCloy. We have a very broad mandate to look into all the circumstances relating to these unfortunate incidents that occurred in Dallas on November 22 last year, and thereafter.
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir.
Mr.McCloy. And we have had Chief Curry on this morning, as I am sure you understand, and we would like to continue our investigation through you. We understand that you were in very direct contact with this problem of investigation, and I will ask you to stand and raise your right hand, sir.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give in this hearing will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Will you state your name, please?
Mr.Fritz. J. W. Fritz.
Mr.Ball. Where do you live?
Mr.Fritz. I live in Dallas.
Mr.Ball. Could you tell us something about yourself; tell us where you were born and what your education is and what your training has been as a police officer?
Mr.Fritz. I was born in Dublin, Tex., and lived there for several years. My father moved to New Mexico, and I grew up at Lake Arthur, N. Mex. And then I came back to Texas, and came to the police department in January of 1921, and have been there ever since.
Mr.Ball. You started as a patrolman, did you, in the Dallas Police Department?
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir; I started as a patrolman, worked as a patrolman approximately 2 years, I am not sure of the exact time and I was then moved to the detectives' office and have come up through the ranks there, up and down.
Mr.Ball. You are now a captain of police, are you?
Mr.Fritz. Captain of homicide and robbery bureau; yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. How long have you held that office?
Mr.Fritz. Since it was set up, I believe, in 1932 or 1933, I am not sure.
Mr.Ball. You have been head of homicide and robbery detail since 1932 or 1933?
Mr.Fritz. That is right. I have had other jobs, too. One time I had the whole CID; they didn't call it CID at that time; they called it detectives' office, but I kept the homicide and robbery under my supervision during that time. I later went back with the homicide and robbery, full time.
Mr.Ball. Is there a division of detectives separate from homicide and robbery?
Mr.Fritz. Well, we call it now the CID. It would be ordinarily called the detective division; yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Who is in charge of that?
Mr.Fritz. Who is in charge of it?
Mr.Ball. Yes.
Mr.Fritz. Of course, we are all directly under the chief, and Chief Stevenson is the head of the CID, M. W. Stevenson.
Mr.Ball. Have you had any special training in police schools or places like that?
Mr.Fritz. Well, of course, I have had a good many years of experience, and I attempted, I still go to school to our police schools, and I now attend seminars at different places, Oklahoma University and Texas University and go to most any training school that is available.
Mr.Ball. On November 22, 1963, you had been told the President or before November 22, 1963, you had been told that the President was coming to Dallas?
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And had you taken certain precautions for his safety?
Mr.Fritz. Well, we had taken some precautions but those were changed. We were told in the beginning that we would be in the parade directly behind it, I don't know whether it was the second or third car, but the Vice President's car, that we would be directly behind that, and we did make preparation for that.
But at 10 o'clock the night before the parade, Chief Stevenson called me at home and told me that had been changed, and I was assigned with two of my officers to the speakers' stand at the Trade Mart.
Mr.Ball. Was most of your work out at the Trade Mart that day?
Mr.Fritz. Well, we didn't have a great deal of work to do there, other than check the speakers' stand and make a check to see if everything was all right before the President got there. He would have been there in 10 more minutes.
Mr.Ball. Did you check the waiters who had been hired?
Mr.Fritz. That wasn't my job.
Mr.Ball. Someone else did?
Mr.Fritz. Someone else did; yes.
Mr.Ball. How many men did you have assigned?
Mr.Fritz. Where?
Mr.Ball. With you at the Trade Mart.
Mr.Fritz. Two.
Mr.Ball. Who were they?
Mr.Fritz. Detectives Sims and Boyd.
Mr.Ball. And they are both homicide?
Mr.Fritz. Both homicide officers; yes. I had other officers assigned to different places. I had two of my officers assigned to ride in the car that was in front of the parade a half mile, with Chief Lumpkin. That was Senkel and Turner.
Mr.Ball. You were at the Trade Mart when you heard the President had been shot?
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. That was about what time you heard that? You have a little notebook there.
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir; I have a notebook.
Mr.Ball. Did you make notes as of that time?
Mr.Fritz. We made this, not at that time, we made this after the tragedy.
Mr.Ball. How long after?
Mr.Fritz. We started on it real soon after, and we have been working on it ever since.
Mr.Ball. Did somebody assist you in the preparation of that notebook?
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Who was that?
Mr.Fritz. I had several officers assist me with this, and some secretaries, of course, that helped us with it. I had my lieutenant, T. L. Baker, help me to put this book together, this larger book, I think you have a copy of it there, and to make some additional books like this.
Of course, we worked the whole office ever since it happened so it is hard to say just who helped.
Mr.Ball. Now, the book you are talking about is a notebook that you have with you, the book at which you are looking now?
Mr.Fritz. This is the book I am talking about.
Mr.Ball. You made a formal report, didn't you, to the attorney general of Texas?
Mr.Fritz. We, we didn't make it for the attorney general of Texas. At the time we made this we were just making, we were told that we would probablyneed a report for this investigation, and we started immediately to making this. We didn't know at that time the attorney general would need one of these but when we were told he would need one we, of course, sent him one, too.
Mr.Ball. What I want to do is distinguish between the books you are looking at for this record.
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. You have a book that is of some size there?
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And you call that what?
Mr.Fritz. Well, "Investigation of the Assassination of President Kennedy."
Mr.Ball. That is the same as Commission's Document No. 81B. So, then, you have a smaller book before you, haven't you?
Mr.Fritz. Yes; a little index book.
Mr.Ball. An index.
Mr.Fritz. It really is an index book for this larger file but it is kind of a quick reference book.
Mr.Ball. I see. Now, what time did you, what time was it that you heard the President had been shot?
Mr.Fritz. I show that he was shot at 12:35, and one of the Secret Service men who was assigned the same location where we were assigned, got a little call on his, evidently got a call on his little transistor radio and Chief Stevenson, who was also assigned to some part of the building there, came to me and told me that the President had been hit at the underpass, and asked me to go to the hospital and see what I could do.
Mr.Ball. You say you know he was shot at 12:35?
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. You mean that is the time you heard about it?
Mr.Fritz. Well, we heard about it immediately after that, and we arrived and wechecked——
Mr.Ball. What time did you hear about it?
Mr.Fritz. Just when Chief Stevenson came to me and told me.
Mr.Ball. Did you make a note of it at the time?
Mr.Fritz. No sir; I didn't make a note of it at the time.
Mr.Ball. When you heard of this what did you do?
Mr.Fritz. Immediately left, and I told the two officers with me, Mr. Sims and Boyd that we would run to our police car that was parked nearby, listened to radio call to see whether it was a hoax or whether it was the truth. It was only 10 minutes' time for the President's arrival, we didn't want to leave unless this was a genuine call, and a true call.
When we got to the radio, of course, we began to get other news. We went to Parkland Hospital as we had been instructed, and as we drove up in front of the hospital, we I suppose intercepted the chief, Chief Curry, between the curb and the hospital, and I told him we had had a call to the hospital but I felt we were going to the wrong place, we should go to the scene of the crime and he said, "Well, go ahead," so I don't think our car ever quit rolling but we went right to the scene of the crime.
Mr.Ball. Did you go directly to a building?
Mr.Fritz. Directly to the Texas School Book Depository Building.
Mr.Ball. What time did you arrive there?
Mr.Fritz. Well, sir; we arrived there—we arrived at the hospital at 12:45, if you want that time, and at the scene of the offense at 12:58.
Mr.Ball. 12:58; the Texas School Book Depository Building.
Mr.Fritz. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Were there any officers there at the time?
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. In the front?
Mr.Fritz. Several officers; yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Do you know who they were?
Mr.Fritz. I couldn't give you the name of all of them.
Mr.Ball. What did you do when you got to this building?
Mr.Fritz. Some officer told us they thought he was in that building, so we had ourguns——
Mr.McCloy. Thought who was in the building?
Mr.Fritz. The man who did the shooting was in the building. So, we, of course, took our shotguns and immediately entered the building and searched the building to see if we could find him.
Mr.Ball. Were there guards on the doors of the building at that time?
Mr.Fritz. I am not sure, but I don't—there has been some question about that, but the reason I don't think that—this may differ with someone else, but I am going to tell you what I know.
Mr.Ball. All right.
Mr.McCloy. By all means.
Mr.Fritz. After I arrived one of the officers asked me if I would like to have the building sealed and I told him I would.
Mr.Ball. What officer was that?
Mr.Fritz. That is a uniformed officer, but I don't know what his name was, he was outside, of course, I went upstairs and I don't know whether he did because I couldn't watch him.
Mr.Ball. Then what did you do?
Mr.Fritz. We began searching the floors, looking for anyone with a gun or looked suspicious, and we searched through hurriedly through most all the floors.
Mr.McCloy. Which floor did you start with?
Mr.Fritz. We started at the bottom; yes, sir. And, of course, and I think we went up probably to the top.
Different people would call me when they would find something that looked like something I should know about and I ran back and forth from floor to floor as we were searching, and it wasn't very long until someone called me and told me they wanted me to come to the front window, the corner window, they had found some empty cartridges.
Mr.Ball. That was on the sixth floor?
Mr.Fritz. That is right; the sixth floor, corner window.
Mr.Ball. What did you do?
Mr.Fritz. I told them not to move the cartridges, not to touch anything until we could get the crime lab to take pictures of them just as they were lying there and I left an officer assigned there to see that that was done, and the crime lab came almost immediately, and took pictures, and dusted the shelfs for prints.
Mr.Ball. Which officers, which officer did you leave there?
Mr.Fritz. Carl Day was the man I talked to about taking pictures.
Mr.Ball. Day?
Mr.Fritz. Lieutenant Day; yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Do you know whether he took the pictures or not?
Mr.Fritz. I feel like he did but I don't know because I didn't stay to see whether he could.
Mr.Ball. You didn't know whether he took the pictures?
Mr.Fritz. I went on searching the building. I just told them to preserve that evidence and I went right ahead.
Mr.Ball. What happened after that?
Mr.Fritz. A few minutes later some officer called me and said they had found the rifle over near the back stairway and I told them same thing, not to move it, not to touch it, not to move any of the boxes until we could get pictures, and as soon as Lieutenant Day could get over there he made pictures of that.
Mr.Ball. After the pictures had been taken of the rifle what happened then?
Mr.Fritz. After the pictures had been made then I ejected a live shell, a live cartridge from the rifle.
Mr.Ball. And who did you give that to?
Mr.Fritz. I believe that I kept that at that time myself. Later I gave it to the crime lab who, in turn, turned it over to the FBI.
Mr.Ball. Did you put any marking of yours on the empty cartridge?
Mr.Fritz. On that loaded cartridge?
Mr.Ball. On that loaded cartridge.
Mr.Fritz. I don't know, I am not sure, I don't think so.
Mr.Ball. Was there any conversation you heard that this rifle was a Mauser?
Mr.Fritz. I heard all kinds of reports about that rifle. They called it most everything.
Mr.Ball. Did you hear any conversation right there that day?
Mr.Fritz. Right at that time?
Mr.Ball. Yes.
Mr.Fritz. I just wouldn't be sure because there were so many people talking at the same time, I might have; I am not sure whether I did or not.
Mr.Ball. Did you think it was a Mauser?
Mr.Fritz. No sir; I knew—you can read on the rifle what it was and you could also see on the cartridge what caliber it was.
Mr.Ball. Well, did you ever make any—did you ever say that it was a 7.65 Mauser?
Mr.Fritz. No sir; I am sure I did not.
Mr.Ball. Or did you think it was such a thing?
Mr.Fritz. No sir; I did not. If I did, the Mauser part, I won't be too positive about Mauser because I am not too sure about Mauser rifles myself. But I am certainly sure that I never did give anyone any different caliber than the one that shows on the cartridges.
Mr.Ball. Did you initial the rifle?
Mr.Fritz. The rifle; no, sir.
Mr.Ball. You didn't. Who did you give the rifle to after you ejected this live cartridge?
Mr.Fritz. I believe that that rifle, I didn't take the rifle with me, Lieutenant Day took that rifle, I believe, to the city hall, and later I asked him to bring it down—I don't believe I ever carried that rifle to city hall. I believe Lieutenant Day carried it to city hall, anyway if you will ask him he can be more positive than I.
Mr.Ball. While you were there Mr. Truly came up to you?
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir; where the rifle was found. That was about the time we finished Mr. Truly came and told me that one of his employees had left the building, and I asked his name and he gave me his name, Lee Harvey Oswald, and I asked his address and he gave me the Irving address.
Mr.Ball. This was after the rifle was found?
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir; after the rifle was found.
Mr.Ball. Another witness has testified that the rifle was found at 1:22 p.m., does that about accord with your figures or your memory?
Mr.Fritz. Let's see, I might have that here. I don't think I have that time.
Mr.Ball. Do you have the time at which the shells were found?
Mr.Fritz. No, sir; I don't have that time.
Mr.Ball. How long did you stay there at the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr.McCloy. Can I ask one question there, did you take any precautions as to fingerprints before you ejected this?
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir.
Mr.McCloy. So in your opinion your fingerprints wouldn't show?
Mr.Fritz. He could have taken mine but I let him dust first before I ejected a shell.
Mr.Ball. How long did you stay at the Texas School Book Depository after you found the rifle?
Mr.Fritz. After he told me about this man almost, I left immediately after he told me that.
Mr.Ball. You left almost immediately after he told you that?
Mr.Fritz. Almost after he told me that man, I felt it important to hold that man.
Mr.Ball. Did you give descriptions to Sims and Boyd?
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir; I told them to drive me to city hall and see if the man had a criminal record and we picked up two other officers and my intentions were to go to the house at Irving. When I got to the city hall, I asked, because, I will tell you why I asked because while we were in the building we heard that our officer had been killed, someone came in and told me, I asked when I got to my office who shot the officer, and they told me his name was Oswald, and I said, "His full name?" And they told me and I said, "That is the suspect we are looking for in the President's killing."
So, I then called some of my officers to go right quickly, and asked them about how much evidence we had on the officer's killing and they told me they had several eye witnesses, and they had some real good witnesses, and I instructed them to get those witnesses over for identification just as soon as they could, and for us to prepare a real good case on the officer's killing so we would have a case to hold him without bond while we investigated the President's killing where we didn't have so many witnesses.
Mr.Ball. Now, you instructed some other officers to go to Irving, didn't you?
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr.Ball. And you told Sims and Boyd to stay with you?
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir; I don't believe I sent them to Irving, I have the names of the officers I sent to Irving.
Mr.Ball. Who did you send to Irving?
Mr.Fritz. To Irving, Officer Stovall, Rose, and Adamcik.
Mr.Ball. After you had done that what did you do?
Mr.Fritz. I sent some officers—you mean right at that time? I also sent officers over to the Beckley address, you know, as soon as we got there, I don't believe we had the Beckley address at this part of this question.
Mr.Ball. You didn't have it at that time, did you?
Mr.Fritz. Not right at this time, but as soon as I got to that address.
Mr.Ball. Let's come to that a little later and we find out when you got there.
Mr.Fritz. When I got there?
Mr.Ball. Yes. What did you do after you had sent the officers to Irving?
Mr.Fritz. When I started to talk to this prisoner or maybe just before I started to talk to him, some officer told me outside of my office that he had a room on Beckley, I don't know who that officer was, I think we can find out, I have—since I have talked to you this morning I have talked to Lieutenant Baker and he says I know maybe who that officer was, but I am not sure yet.
Mr.Ball. Some officer told you that he thought this man had a room on Beckley?
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Had he been brought into the station by that time?
Mr.Fritz. He was at the station when we got there, you know.
Mr.Ball. He was?
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir; so then I talked to him and I asked him where his room was on Beckley.
Mr.Ball. Then you started to interrogate Oswald, did you?
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And you called him into your room?
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Will you describe the interrogation room, what it looks like and where it is located?
Mr.Fritz. It is on the, room 317, on the third floor of the courts building, and it isn't a large office. I believe it is 9½ feet by 14 feet, I have the exact measurements that I think are correct. Glass all around, and it has a door leading out into a hallway. My secretaries are seated in the front. There is a lieutenant's office and desk across the hall from me. To my right and through the back window out of my office would be the squadroom where the officers write their reports. And at the end of the hall I have an interrogation room and one interrogation in back of the squadroom.
Mr.Ball. Your room opensonto——
Mr.Fritz. A little hallway.
Mr.Ball. A little hallway?
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. That is not the main hall that goes through the third floor, is it?
Mr.Fritz. Sir? No, no, a little hallway in the office.
Mr.Ball. The main corridor on the third floor—your office does not open onto the main corridor of the third floor, does it?
Mr.Fritz. My own office?
Mr.Ball. Yes.
Mr.Fritz. No, sir; when I say my office, the homicide and robbery office, my office opens onto the main hallway.
But my little office, a private office opens into a smaller hallway.
Mr.Ball. Where was Oswald being kept before you got there, what room was Oswald in?
Mr.Fritz. When I got there he was in the front interrogation room at the end of the little hall.
Mr.Ball. Here is a map or a diagram drawn by Chief Curry. It is Commission Exhibit 701. Take a look at this, is that a diagram of the floor?
Mr.Fritz. This would be my office right here.
Mr.Ball. That would be the entry to the homicide and robbery?
Mr.Fritz. Homicide and robbery bureau.
Mr.Ball. This is your office?
Mr.Fritz. My office opens right here.
Mr.Ball. Off of the hall?
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Off the homicide and robbery?
Mr.Fritz. Yes; there should be another line, wait just a minute. There is a little mistake right here, would it be all right if I correct it?
Mr.Ball. Go ahead and correct it, your office is farther back from the hall, isn't it?
Mr.Fritz. You see this, coming up from the hall, down at this end the administrative office, the chief's office, and the dispatcher's office over here, and over here is the chief's office back here, here are some assistant chiefs all along here, and in this corner. Now, in coming down this hall, this is open right in here that makes a square that goes into the other building in city hall, and this comes to the elevators, the elevators are right here.
Now then, right here in this little jail office, a little small office for the jail elevators right here, and two toilets right here. Now then, this should have a hallway in here like that, beginning right here.
Mr.Ball. You are adding to Chief Curry's map showing a little hallway?
Mr.Fritz. That is right. This is the lieutenant's office right here.
Mr.Ball. You are marking "Lieutenant's office."
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir; and that is his—that is placed there just like my office is, and right at the end of this hall, right here, using a little part of that probably, but in there is a little conference room right in here which comes clear across here.
Here, I have a desk, a metal desk with all the records, daily record, the working records stacked right on here for the benefit of the officers who work in this squadroom right here with these desks.
Mr.Ball. Where is the door to your office?
Mr.Fritz. Here is the door to my office right here.
Mr.Ball. Mark that, please. Show me where Oswald was kept.
Mr.Fritz. In this little place right here.
Mr.Ball. Put a big X there where Oswald was kept.
Mr.Fritz. At first?
Mr.Ball. At first.
Mr.Fritz. He was there when I came in. We didn't keep him there long.
Mr.Ball. That was only a few steps from your office?
Mr.Fritz. Only a few steps. That is where he was when I came into the office.
Mr.Ball. In the room marked "X" on this Exhibit No. 701 is where he was?
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. After a few moments you had him come in, in a little while, to your office?
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Do you have that in time when he came into your office?
Mr.Fritz. The chief's map would have been, I could have made this better if I had used the chief's map and put the lieutenant's office over here.
Mr.Ball. Don't worry about it. That is close enough. We have him from X which is the conference room into your office.
Mr.Fritz. Yes; my desk is right here and I sit behind it right here and there are some chairs and telephone table right here and I had him sitting in a chair, right here.
Mr.Ball. Right beside you?
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir; I have other chairs along here.
Mr.Ball. All right.
Now, Captain, about what time did you first bring him to your office?
Mr.Fritz. Let's see, I have it right here. Oswald was arrested at 1:40 and I think he was taken to the city hall about 2:15 and I started talking to him probably a little bit after that.
Mr.Ball. About what time?
Don't you have a time marked in your report there?
Mr.Fritz. I think so.
Mr.Ball. Of 2:25.
Mr.Fritz. 2:25?
Mr.Ball. On page 237 of your report, your report of Sims and Boyd refers to a time that he was brought to your room, and I believe 165.
Mr.Fritz. My report, my report should have a report right there that should show it. This shows here 2:15 and I don't think that is right.
Mr.Ball. Mr. Baker's report on 165 gives the time also.
Mr.Fritz. The nearest that I have here then would be shortly after 2:15 p.m.
Mr.Ball. You will notice that Sims and Boyd make it, state they brought him from the conference room to your office at about 2:20.
Mr.Fritz. That might be all right because I have 2:15 here but I think 2:15 may be 5 or 10 minutes too early.
Mr.Ball. It was soon after you got there?
Mr.Fritz. Soon after I got there.
Mr.Ball. That you brought him into your office?
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Who was present when you talked with him?
Mr.Fritz. At that time, when I first brought him in there there would be Sims and Boyd and probably one or two officers from the office, I am not sure, just who else might have been there. I know those two, I am sure, I believe those two were there. Just about the time I started talking to him, I had just started to question him, I got a phone call from Mr. Shanklin, Gordon Shanklin, agent in charge of the FBI calling for Mr. Bookhout, and I asked Mr. Bookhout to go to pick up the extension.
Mr.Ball. Was Mr. Bookhout there?
Mr.Fritz. He had just come into the lieutenant's office and Mr. Shanklin asked that Mr. Hosty be in on that questioning, he said he wanted him in there because of Mr. Hosty knowing these people and he had been talking to them and he wanted him in there right then.
So, I got up from my desk and walked over to the lieutenant's office and asked Mr. Bookhout to come in, the reason I asked both of them to come in and Mr. Bookhout is in my office most of every day and works with us in a lot of cases and asked him to come in with Mr. Hosty.
Mr.Ball. So Bookhout and Hosty came into your office?
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Was anyone else present?
Mr.Fritz. I don't remember whether there was anyone else right at that time or not.
Mr.Ball. Do you remember what you said to Oswald and what he said to you?
Mr.Fritz. I can remember the thing that I said to him and what he said to me, but I will have trouble telling you which period of questioning those questions were in because I kept no notes at the time, and these notes and things that I have made I would have to make several days later, and the questions may be in the wrong place.
Mr.Ball. What is your best memory of what you said to him when he first came in?
Mr.Fritz. I first asked him as I do of most people something about where he was from, and where he was raised and his education, and I asked him where he went to school and he told me he went to school in New York for a while, he had gone to school in Fort Worth some, that he didn't finish high school, that he went to the Marines, and the Marines, and finished high school training in the Marines.
And I don't remember just what else. I asked him just the general questions for getting acquainted with him, and so I would see about how to talk to him, and Mr. Hosty spoke up and asked him something about Russia, and asked him if he had been to Russia, and he asked him if he had been to Mexico City, and this irritated Oswald a great deal and he beat on the desk and went into a kind of a tantrum.
Mr.Ball. What did he say when he was asked if he had been to Mexico City?
Mr.Fritz. He said he had not been. He did say he had been to Russia, he was in Russia, I believe he said for some time.
Mr.Ball. He said he had not been in Mexico City?
Mr.Fritz. At that time he told me he had not been in Mexico City.
Mr.Ball. Who asked the question whether or not he had been to Mexico City?
Mr.Fritz. Mr. Hosty. I wouldn't have known anything about Mexico City.
Mr.Ball. Was there anything said about Oswald's wife?
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir. He said, he told Hosty, he said, "I know you." He said, "You accosted my wife on two occasions," and he was getting pretty irritable and so I wanted to quiet him down a little bit because I noticed if I talked to him in a calm, easy manner it wasn't very hard to get him to settle down, and I asked him what he meant by accosting, I thought maybe he meant some physical abuse or something and he said, "Well, he threatened her." And he said, "He practically told her she would have to go back to Russia." And he said, "He accosted her on two different occasions."
Mr.Ball. Was there anything said about where he lived?
Mr.Fritz. Where he lived? Right at that time?
Mr.Ball. Yes.
Mr.Fritz. I am sure I had no way of asking him where he lived but I am not too sure about that—just how quick he told me because he corrected me, I thought he lived in Irving and he told me he didn't live in Irving. He lived on Beckley as the officer had told me outside.
(At this point Mr. Dulles entered the hearing room.)
Mr.Fritz. And I asked him about that arrangement and I am again, I can't be too sure when this question was asked. I asked him why his wife was living in Irving and why he was living on Beckley and he said she was living with Mrs. Paine. Mrs. Paine was trying to learn to speak Russian and that his wife, Mrs. Oswald, had a small baby and Mrs. Paine helped with the baby and his wife taught Mrs. Paine Russian and it made a good arrangement for both of them and he stayed over in town. I thought it was kind of an awkward arrangement and I questioned him about the arrangement a little bit and I asked him how often he went out there and he said weekends.
I asked him why he didn't stay out there. He said he didn't want to stay out there all the time, Mrs. Paine and her husband didn't get along too well. They were separated a good part of the time and I asked him if he had a car and he said he didn't have a car, he said the Paines had two cars but he didn't use their cars.
Mr.Ball. Did you ask him anything about his address or did he volunteer the address?
Mr.Fritz. He volunteered the address at Beckley?
Mr.Ball. Yes.
Mr.Fritz. Well, I will tell you, whether we asked him or told him one, he never did deny it, he never did deny the Beckley Street address at all. The only thing was he didn't know whether it was north or south.
Mr.Ball. Did you ask him whether it was north or south?
Mr.Fritz. Yes, but he didn't know. But from the description of surroundings we could tell it was North Beckley.
Mr.Ball. Up to that time you hadn't sent any men out to North Beckley, had you?
Mr.Fritz. Well, I sent them out there real soon and Officer Potts called me back from out there and talked to me on the telephone and gave me a report from out there on the telephone, and I am sure that that is the time that he told me about the way he was registered, and I asked Oswald about why he was registered under this other name.
Mr.Ball. What other name?
Mr.Fritz. Of O. L. Lee.
Mr.Ball. O. H. Lee?
Mr.Fritz. O. H. Lee. He said, well, the lady didn't understand him, she put it down there and he just left it that way.
Mr.Ball. Did you ask him whether he had signed his name O. H. Lee?
Mr.Fritz. No, I hadn't asked him.
Mr.Ball. Did you know that he had personally registered?
Mr.Fritz. No, sir; I did not.
Mr.Ball. He said the lady didn't understand him?
Mr.Fritz. He said the lady didn't understand him and he just left it that way.
Mr.Ball. How long did this first questioning take?
Mr.Fritz. Of course, I talked to him several times during that afternoon. I would have to go out and talk to every officer and give them different assignments and talk to them about these witnesses, and help some in getting the witnesses over there.
I also asked Lieutenant Day to bring the rifle down after I sent after Mrs. Oswald, and had her to look at the rifle. She couldn't identify it positively but she said it looked like the rifle that he had, but she couldn't say for sure. She said she thought he brought it from New Orleans.
Mr.Ball. How long a time did you sit with Oswald and question him this first time?
Mr.Fritz. The first time, not but a few minutes.
Mr.Ball. That was the time Hosty and Bookhout were there?
Mr.Fritz. That is right. But sometimes when I would leave the office to do something else, it is hard to imagine how many things we had happening at the one time or how many different officers we had doing different things without seeing it but we were terribly busy.
I had called all my officers back on duty and had every one of them assigned to something, so going back and forth kept me pretty busy running back and forth at the time of questioning.
I don't know when I would leave, I suppose Mr. Bookhout and Mr. Hosty asked him a few questions, but I don't believe they questioned him a great deal while I was gone.
Mr.Ball. You said just a few minutes, what did you mean by that, 15, 20, 25?
Mr.Fritz. It would be pretty hard to guess at a time like that because we weren't even quitting for lunch so I don't even know, time didn't mean much right at that time. For a few minutes, you would think 30 or 40 minutes the first time.
Mr.Ball. Thirty or forty minutes?
Mr.Fritz. I am guessing at that time.
Mr.Ball. He hadn't been searched up to that time, had he?
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir; he had been searched.
Mr.Ball. Wasn't he searched later in the jail office?
Mr.Fritz. He was searched, the officers who arrested him made the first search, I am sure. He had another search at the building and I believe that one of my officers, Mr. Boyd, found some cartridges in his pocket in the room after he came to the city hall. I can't tell you the exact time when he searched him.
Mr.Bail. You don't have the record of the time when he was searched?
Mr.Fritz. No.
Mr.Ball. You remember they found a transfer of Dallas Transit Company?
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir; found a transfer.
Mr.Ball. And some bullets?
Mr.Fritz. Bullets; yes, sir. Cartridges.
Mr.Ball. He had an identification bracelet, too, didn't he?
Mr.Fritz. I am not sure about that.
Mr.Ball. You don't remember?
Mr.Fritz. No.
Mr.Ball. You had a showup that afternoon?
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir.
Mr.McCloy. May I ask what kind of bullets these were?
Mr.Fritz. .38, cartridges for a .38 pistol.
Mr.McCloy. Pistol?
Mr.Fritz. Yes, pistol cartridges.
Mr.Ball. You had a showup that afternoon?
Mr.Fritz. That first showup was for a lady who was an eye witness and we were trying to get that showup as soon as we could because she was beginning to faint and getting sick.
In fact, I had to leave the office and carry some ammonia across the hall, they were about to send her to the hospital or something and we needed that identification real quickly, and she got to feeling all right after using this ammonia.
Mr.Ball. Do you remember her name?
Mr.Fritz. I have her name here.
Mr.Ball. Was that Mrs. Markham?
Mr.Fritz. Yes, Helen Markham.
Mr.Ball. That was the first showup, was it?
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Were you there?
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. With her?
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Will you tell me what happened there?
Mr.Fritz. She looked at these people very carefully, and she picked him out and made the positive identification.
Mr.Ball. What did she say?
Mr.Fritz. She said that is the man that I saw shoot the officer.
Mr.Ball. Who did she point out?
Mr.Fritz. She pointed out Oswald; yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. In your showup room you have the prisoners separated from the visitors?
Mr.Fritz. There is a screen. They are on a stage with numbers over their heads for identification, and measurements to show their height, and this is lighted back there so the people can see them plainly, and the people who are looking at them usually sit at desks out some distance, probably as far as here from that window from the showup screen.
Mr.Ball. Near the window, you mean about 15, 20 feet.
Mr.Fritz. Yes; about that far.
Mr.Ball. And then, now in this showup there were two officers of the vice squad and an officer and a clerk from the jail that were in the showup with Oswald?
Mr.Fritz. That is true. I borrowed those officers, I was a little bit afraid some prisoner might hurt him, there was a lot of excitement and a lot of feeling right about that time so we didn't have an officer in my office the right size to show with him so I asked two of the special service officers if they would help me and they said they would be glad to, so they took off their coats and neckties and fixed themselves where they would look like prisoners and they were good enough to stand on each side of him in the showup and we used a man who works in the jail office, a civilian employee as a third man.
Mr.Ball. Now, were they dressed a little better than Oswald, do you think, these three people?
Mr.Fritz. Well, I don't think there was a great deal of difference. They had on their regular working clothes and after they opened their shirts and took off their ties, why they looked very much like anyone else.
Mr.Ball. They were all handcuffed together, were they?
Mr.Fritz. I am not sure, I don't remember for sure if they were all handcuffed together or not. They probably did. I couldn't be positive about that.
Mr.Ball. Now, after you had had the showup with Helen Markham, did you question Oswald again?
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. In your office?
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Go directly from the showup room up there?
Mr.Fritz. Well, I am not sure whether directly, but shortly, there wouldn't be too much time when we talk to him after that.
Mr.Ball. Your records show the showup for Helen Markham was 4:45.
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Do you think that is about right?
Mr.Fritz. I think that is about right.
Mr.Ball. All right, now how long after that would you say you went back to your office and talked to him again?
Mr.Fritz. I would say within, it would take us a few minutes, you know, to get him back from the showup, probably 15 minutes, something like that.
Mr.Ball. Who was present?
Mr.Fritz. Twenty minutes.
Mr.Ball. Who was present at this questioning?
Mr.Fritz. This particular questioning?
Mr.Ball. Yes.
Mr.Fritz. I believe—I don't want to be sure about whether Mr. Hosty stayed at this next time or not because he left at some time. Mr. Bookhout stayed and my officers were there.
Mr.Ball. Now, there was a time when you asked him where he worked and what he did?
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And was that thefirst——
Mr.Fritz. That was the first time.
Mr.Ball. The first question—what did he tell you about that?
Mr.Fritz. He told me he worked at the Texas School Book Depository.
Mr.Ball. Did he tellyou——
Mr.Fritz. I asked him how he got his job down there, too.
Mr.Ball. What did he say?
Mr.Fritz. He told me that someone that he knew, a lady that he knew recommended him for that job and he got that job through her. I believe the records show something else but that is what he told me.
Mr.Ball. Did you ask him what happened that day; where he had been?
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. What did he say?
Mr.Fritz. Well he told me that he was eating lunch with some of the employees when this happened, and that he saw all the excitement and he didn't think—I also asked him why he left the building. He said there was so much excitement there then that "I didn't think there would be any work done that afternoon and we don't punch a clock and they don't keep very close time on our work and I just left."
Mr.Ball. At that time didn't you know that one of your officers, Baker, had seen Oswald on the second floor?
Mr.Fritz. They told me about that down at the bookstore; I believe Mr. Truly or someone told me about it, told me they had met him—I think he told me, person who told me about, I believe told me that they met him on the stairway, but our investigation shows that he actually saw him in a lunchroom, a little lunchroom where they were eating, and he held his gun on this man and Mr. Truly told him that he worked there, and the officer let him go.
Mr.Ball. Did you question Oswald about that?
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir; I asked him about that and he knew that the officer stopped him all right.
Mr.Ball. Did you ask him what he was doing in the lunchroom?
Mr.Fritz. He said he was having his lunch. He had a cheese sandwich and a Coca-Cola.
Mr.Ball. Did he tell you he was up there to get a Coca-Cola?
Mr.Fritz. He said he had a Coca-Cola.
Mr.Ball. That same time you also asked him about the rifle.
Mr.Fritz. I am not sure that is the time I asked him about the rifle. I did ask him about the rifle sometime soon after that occurred, and after the showup; I am not sure which time I asked him about the rifle.
Mr.Ball. Did you bring the rifle down to your office?
Mr.Fritz. Not to him; not for him to see.
Mr.Ball. You never showed it to him?
Mr.Fritz. No, sir. I asked him if he owned a rifle and he said he did not. I asked him if he had ever owned a rifle. He said a good many years ago he owned a small rifle but he hadn't owned one for a long time. I asked him if he owned a rifle in Russia and he said, "You know you can't own a rifle in Russia." He said, "I had a shotgun over there. You can't own a rifle in Russia." And he denied owning a rifle of any kind.
Mr.Ball. Didn't he say that he had seen a rifle at the building?
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir; he told me he had seen a rifle at the building 2 or 3 days before that Mr. Truly and some men were looking at.
Mr.Ball. You asked him why he left the building, didn't you?
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. He told you because he didn't think there would be any work?
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did you ask him what he did after he left the building?
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. What did he say?
Mr.Fritz. He told me he went over and caught a bus and rode the bus to North Beckley near where he lived and went by home and changed clothes and got his pistol and went to the show. I asked him why he took his pistol and he said, "Well, you know about a pistol; I just carried it." Let's see if I asked him anything else right that minute. That is just about it.
Mr.Ball. Did you ask him if he killed Tippit?
Mr.Fritz. Sir?
Mr.Ball. Did you ask him if he shot Tippit?
Mr.Fritz. Oh, yes.
Mr.Ball. What did he say.
Mr.Fritz. He denied it—that he did not. The only thing he said he had done wrong, "The only law I violated was in the show; I hit the officer in the show; he hit me in the eye and I guess I deserved it." He said, "That is the only law I violated." He said, "That is the only thing I have done wrong."