Mr.Eisenberg. You just demonstrated that both corners originally were folded by the crease lines, and you folded it over again to show how it was made?
Mr.Stombaugh. Yes; this makes a neat and also a secure corner or end to the bag, to prevent losing any of the contents.
Mr.Eisenberg. Mr. Stombaugh, did you examine the outside of this paperbag——
Mr.Stombaugh. Yes; I did.
Mr.Eisenberg. Exhibit 142 and also 626, to see if there were any foreign items on the surface?
Mr.Stombaugh. Yes; I did.
Mr.Eisenberg. And what did you find?
Mr.Stombaugh. I found that the bag had previously been dusted for latent fingerprints because I found traces of what appeared to be fingerprint powder on it.
I was using white gloves at the time I examined this and the gloves became quite soiled from the fingerprint powder.
Mr.Eisenberg. Did you find anything else?
Mr.Stombaugh. No; nothing on the outside of the bag.
Mr.Eisenberg. How did you conduct that examination, by the way?
Mr.Stombaugh. With a low-power microscope.
Mr.Eisenberg. Did you find any cotton fibers on the outside of the bag at all, Mr. Stombaugh, white or colored?
Mr.Stombaugh. There were white cotton fibers on the outside but I was using a pair of white cotton gloves, so these would be of no value. White cotton is the most common thing we have in the way of textiles, and therefore it just doesn't have sufficient individual characteristics to be of value for comparison and identification purposes. It is for this reason that we use gloves of this material.
Mr.Eisenberg. And those fibers may have come from your white cotton gloves?
Mr.Stombaugh. Yes; they could very easily have come from my gloves from handling the object with a pair of gloves on.
Mr.Eisenberg. Did you proceed to examine the inside of the paper bag to see if there were any foreign objects?
Mr.Stombaugh. Yes; I did.
Mr.Eisenberg. What were your conclusions?
Mr.Stombaugh. I removed the debris from the inside of the bag by opening the bag as best I could, and tapping it and knocking the debris on to a small piece of white paper, and I found a very small number of fibers. Upon examining these fibers, I found a single brown, delustered, viscose fiber and several light-green cotton fibers from the inside of the bag. I also found a minute particle of wood and a single particle of a waxy substance.
Mr.Eisenberg. Did you attach any significance to the particle of wood, Mr. Stombaugh?
Mr.Stombaugh. No; it was too minute for identification purposes. It could have come from any surface, including the bag itself. Sometimes all of the wood used in the manufacture of paper doesn't go into a pulp, and this might be a very tiny such fragment.
Mr.Eisenberg. Did you examine the wood fragment?
Mr.Stombaugh. I looked at it microscopically.
Mr.Eisenberg. Did you attempt to compare it with the wood of the Exhibit 139, which is a rifle?
Mr.Stombaugh. Yes; the wood particle from the bag was too minute for comparison purposes. There wasn't much you could do with it, it was very small.
Mr.Eisenberg. Did you attach any significance to the body wax—or to the wax, I should say?
Mr.Stombaugh. The wax particle I noticed, and I recalled having seen wax on the shirt, Exhibit No. 673, so therefore I put that aside for a spectrographic examination and comparison of the wax particle from the inside of the bag with the wax from the shirt.
Mr.Eisenberg. And what were the results?
Mr.Stombaugh. They were entirely different.
Mr.Eisenberg. Was there any analysis made of the wax in the bag as to its origin, do you know?
Mr.Stombaugh. It was examined by the spectrographic examiner and he found it was just common wax.
Mr.Eisenberg. When you say common wax, do you mean the kind you wax a floor with?
Mr.Stombaugh. No; more like that which could have come from a candle, candle wax.
Mr.Eisenberg. What about the wax on the shirt as to origin?
Mr.Stombaugh. It was paraffin.
Mr.Eisenberg. Now you also said there were several fibers, Mr. Stombaugh?
Mr.Stombaugh. Yes, sir; I did. There was a single brown delustered viscose fiber and several light-green cotton fibers.
Mr.Eisenberg. Did this single brown viscose fiber match the fibers from the blanket, Exhibit 140?
Mr.Stombaugh. Yes; it did.
Mr.Eisenberg. In what characteristics were they matched?
Mr.Stombaugh. The fibers in the blanket had a large number of brown viscose fibers, delustered and one fiber I found in the bag was also a viscose fiber of the same type and color as seen under a low-powered microscope. The delustering spots seen on the fiber were the same size, and both fibers were approximately the same diameter.
Mr.Eisenberg. How common is viscose, Mr. Stombaugh, as a fiber?
Mr.Stombaugh. Viscose is fairly common. It is used in many types of garments; it depends on the quality of the garment.
Mr.Eisenberg. And this was delustered viscose, did you say?
Mr.Stombaugh. Yes.
Mr.Eisenberg. How common is delustered viscose?
Mr.Stombaugh. It is most common, I would say. It is more common than lustrous.
Mr.Eisenberg. Generally speaking, how many variations of diameter would a delustered viscose come in?
Mr.Stombaugh. This is entirely up to the manufacturer. He can make viscose any diameter he wants, and there could be hundreds of variations in the diameter of viscose fibers.
Mr.Eisenberg. But the fiber you found in the paper bag, 142, matched the fibers you found in the Exhibit 140?
Mr.Stombaugh. Yes, sir; but the viscose fibers in the blanket varied in size also.
Mr.Eisenberg. To what extent?
Mr.Stombaugh. There were 10 to 15 different diameters of viscose in this blanket. It appeared to me as if the blanket was made of scrap viscose, scrap fibers.
Mr.Eisenberg. So that the diameters would be random?
Mr.Stombaugh. They were random; yes, sir.
Mr.Eisenberg. Now, what about the color, was the color a match between the fiber found in 140—in 142—and the fiber which is in the composition of 140, the blanket?
Mr.Stombaugh. Yes; the color matched some of the viscose fibers, the brown viscose fibers in the blanket. Of course, these colors also varied slightly but not to any great extent, not like the diameter.
Mr.Eisenberg. Were there any other common characteristics between the viscose fibers found in the blanket and the viscose fibers found in the paper bag?
Mr.Stombaugh. The viscose fiber I found in the bag matched in all observable microscopic characteristics some of the viscose fibers found in the composition of this blanket. This would be the diameter, the diameter of that same fiber would have the same size of delustering markings, same shape, same form, and also same color.
Mr.Eisenberg. Now, what about the green cotton fiber that you found in the paper bag, Mr. Stombaugh, how did that compare with the green cotton fiber—was it a green cotton fiber that your testimony mentioned?
Mr.Stombaugh. Yes; there were several light green cotton fibers.
Mr.Eisenberg. How did they compare with the green cotton fibers which are contained in the composition of the blanket?
Mr.Stombaugh. These matched in all observable microscopic characteristics.
Mr.Eisenberg. And those were what?
Mr.Stombaugh. The color and the amount of twist of the cotton fibers were the same as the color and twist found in these. Mainly the color is what we go by on cotton.
Mr.Eisenberg. Were they mercerized or unmercerized?
Mr.Stombaugh. They were not mercerized.
Mr.Eisenberg. How common is cotton as a fiber, Mr. Stombaugh?
Mr.Stombaugh. Cotton is the most common fiber used.
Mr.Eisenberg. And what about nonmercerized cotton, as to commonness?
Mr.Stombaugh. You would find more unmercerized cotton in use than mercerized,because to mercerize cotton is an added production factor used in cotton.
Mr.Eisenberg. How great a variation do you get in degree of twist?
Mr.Stombaugh. You are referring to between mercerized andun——
Mr.Eisenberg. No; within unmercerized cotton.
Mr.Stombaugh. This would depend on the quality of the cotton and the length of the cotton also.
Mr.Eisenberg. But I mean as samples come across your desk in your office, or as you read about them in books, is there a great variation in twist or a small variation?
Mr.Stombaugh. It depends—there is a small variation but this would depend on the type of cotton. There are different types of cotton, and each is determined from the length of the individual cotton fiber.
Mr.Eisenberg. Could you tell what kind of cotton you were dealing with in the blanket?
Mr.Stombaugh. No; because here we are not dealing with a full-length cotton fiber. We are dealing with a fragment of a single fiber.
Mr.Eisenberg. Now, could you determine whether there was a variation in the twist of the cotton fibers within the blanket itself as there was, you say, in the diameter of the viscose fibers?
Mr.Stombaugh. The twist seemed to coincide with the twist found in the cotton from the blanket.
Mr.Eisenberg. Yes. But looking just to the blanket now for a second, you said the brown viscose or the viscose generally in the blanket itself varied as to diameter. Did the cotton in the blanket vary within itself as to twist or was the cotton of a fairly uniform twist?
Mr.Stombaugh. No; it was fairly uniform twist.
Mr.Eisenberg. And you said the fibers you found, the green cotton fibers you found, in the bag were the same twist as the twist of the cottons which composed the blanket?
Mr.Stombaugh. That is correct.
Mr.Eisenberg. And just to tie this into the questions I was asking a few seconds ago, would this degree of twist be significant, that is can you determine under the microscope 4 different kinds of degrees of twist or 20—how many different degrees of twist can you determine under a microscope, just approximately?
Mr.Stombaugh. Are you referring to the same type ofcotton——
Mr.Eisenberg. Well, when you get a piece of cotton?
Mr.Stombaugh. Or cotton as a whole?
Mr.Eisenberg. When you get a piece of cotton under the microscope and you don't know what type it is? I am referring to cotton as a whole.
Mr.Stombaugh. I see. The degree of twist could be—now if we are dealing with fresh cotton, cotton running right from the plant, then the degree of twist, this varies, and this could be used in the identification of the type of cotton. But in the manufacturing process quite frequently when the cotton is spun into yarns then this twist is affected.
Mr.Eisenberg. Well, at this point I am not interested in determining the type of cotton. What I am interested in is determining how significant the degree of twist is as an identifying factor.
Mr.Stombaugh. I would say no significance at all as far as the sole identifying characteristic goes, whether or not this cotton of this cotton has the same twist. The twist we use is for identification purposes only, supplementing other identifying characteristics.
Mr.Eisenberg. That is the only purpose I am interested in.
Mr.Stombaugh. Yes; that is the only purpose.
Mr.Eisenberg. But in getting to that, how valuable is it for identification purposes? I am curious as to how many—how much a twist can vary. As you pick up a random fiber, and put it under your microscope, I am interested in how much the twist can vary. For example, if there are only two possibilities, then it isn't too helpful that you get a match in twist, but if there are great variations in twist in cotton fibers as they come under your microscope, it would be helpful in making your identification.
Mr.Stombaugh. I see what you are getting at. There are great variations.Sometimes in a cotton fiber, the twist will be rather far apart. Other times it will be rather close together. Thispiece——
Mr.Eisenberg. So that the fibers, the cotton fibers, to begin with, matched in twist, that is, the cotton fibers you found in the paper bag matched the twist of the ones that are contained in the blanket, and you said they also matched in color?
Mr.Stombaugh. Yes, sir.
Mr.Eisenberg. I would like to ask you the same question as to color that I asked you as to twist. How many different shades do you think you can distinguish under the microscope in a green cotton? Would the range be just 2 or 3 different shades, or do you think you could distinguish between 20 or 30 different types of green cotton if you laid them next to each other under the microscope?
Mr.Stombaugh. No; the range in green cotton fibers, for that matter in any color, is tremendous. This could go to 50 sometimes 100 different shades which you can distinguish under a microscope. To the naked eye, it would look as if it is just green. But you could take, say five different fabrics of the same type that have been dyed exactly the same color or rather you think they are the same shade, and put the individual fibers under the microscope and there will be a big difference noted in shades.
Mr.Eisenberg. Now were the green cotton fibers in the blanket uniform as to shade between themselves?
Mr.Stombaugh. No; these varied.
Mr.Eisenberg. To what extent?
Mr.Stombaugh. They go from a green to a very pale green.
Mr.Eisenberg. So thatthe——
Mr.Stombaugh. Might be seven or eight different shades.
Mr.Eisenberg. So when you say there is a match, you mean the green cotton fibers you found in the paper bag were within the spectrum of shades that are laid out in the green cotton fibers from the blanket—is that correct?
Mr.Stombaugh. No. I forget how many different shades of green I found in this blanket. Under the circumstances, I considered the exact number of no particular significance. But we will say it might be possibly eight different separate shades, and the fibers I found from the blanket matched some of these shades. Not all of them; but there might be a medium-green fiber that I found in the bag, which I matched with a medium-green fiber from this blanket. It might have been one that had a yellowish-green tinge to it, which I also matched with the yellowish-green tinged cotton fibers from the blanket.
So unless the colors match absolutely, there is no match.
Mr.Eisenberg. Do you recall how many green cotton fibers you found in the paper bag?
Mr.Stombaugh. I have here in my notes"several"—
Mr.Eisenberg. Yes?
Mr.Stombaugh. I have here in my notes "several light green cotton fibers," which would be approximately two or three.
Mr.Eisenberg. Do you recall whether they represented two or three different shades?
Mr.Stombaugh. Yes; they were all different from each other but each matched the cotton fibers in the blanket.
Mr.Eisenberg. So you had two or three cotton fibers of two or three shades of green in the bag, and they matched against these two or three of the seven or eight shades of green cotton which were in the blanket, is that a correct recapitulation?
Mr.Stombaugh. Yes.
Mr.Eisenberg. And you say there are 50 to 100—approximately—green shades of cotton that can be distinguished under the microscope?
Mr.Stombaugh. Yes; I would say that is true. This would vary from dark green, of course, all the way up to light-pale green.
Mr.Eisenberg. Did you find anything else within the bag, Mr. Stombaugh?
Mr.Stombaugh. No, sir; that is all I found inside the bag.
Mr.Eisenberg. Now, what do you think the degree of probability is, if youcan form an opinion, that the fibers from the bag, fibers in the bag, ultimately came from the blanket?
Mr.Stombaugh. When you get into mathematical probabilities, it is something I stay away from, since in general there are too many unknown factors. All I would say here is that it is possible that these fibers could have come from this blanket, because this blanket is composed of brown and green woolen fibers, brown and green delustered viscose fibers, and brown and green cotton fibers.
Now these 3 different types of fibers have 6 different general colors, and if we would multiply that, say by a minimum of 5 different shades of each so you would have 30 different shades you are looking for, and 3 different types of fibers. Here we have only found 1 brown viscose fiber, and 2 or 3 light green cotton fibers. We found no brown cotton fibers, no green viscose fibers, and no woolen fibers.
So if I had found all of these then I would have been able to say these fibers probably had come from this blanket. But since I found so few, then I would say the possibility exists, these fibers could have come from this blanket.
Mr.Eisenberg. Now, let me ask you a hypothetical question, Mr. Stombaugh. First, I hand you Commission Exhibit 139, which consists of a rifle found on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building, and I ask you, if the rifle had lain in the blanket, which is 140, and were then put inside the bag, 142, could it have picked up fibers from the blanket and transferred them to the bag?
Mr.Stombaugh. Yes.
Mr.Eisenberg. Are there any further questions as to the blanket?
Mr.Dulles. Do you have any, Mr. Murray?
Mr.Murray. I have none, Mr. Dulles.
Mr.Eisenberg. Do you recognize Exhibit 139? Are you familiar with that?
Mr.Stombaugh. Yes; I am.
Mr.Eisenberg. Did you examine that in the laboratory?
Mr.Stombaugh. Yes; I did.
Mr.Eisenberg. Do you know when you made that examination?
Mr.Stombaugh. On the morning of November 23, 1963.
Mr.Eisenberg. Is your mark on it?
Mr.Stombaugh. Yes, sir; here is my mark.
Mr.Eisenberg. Which consists of your initials?
Mr.Stombaugh. My initials, and the date 11-23-63. Do you mind if I check to see if this is unloaded?
Mr.Eisenberg. Did you examine the rifle to determine whether it contained on its surface or crevices any hair or other debris?
Mr.Stombaugh. Yes; I did.
Mr.Eisenberg. Can you tell us how you made that examination?
Mr.Stombaugh. Yes, sir. The gun was to be treated for latent fingerprints also, so I wore a pair of white cotton gloves to protect any latents that might be present on the gun. I placed the gun under a low-powered microscope and examined the gun from the end of the barrel to the end of the stock, removing what fibers I could find from crevices adhering to the gun.
I noticed immediately upon receiving the gun that this gun had been dusted for latent fingerprints prior to my receiving it. Latent fingerprint powder was all over the gun; it was pretty well dusted off, and at the time I noted to myself that I doubted very much if there would be any fibers adhering to the outside of this gun—I possibly might find some in a crevice some place—because when the latent fingerprint man dusted this gun, apparently in Dallas, they use a little brush to dust with they would have dusted any fibers off the gun at the same time; so this I noted before I ever started to really examine the gun.
Mr.Eisenberg. Were you unhappy at all about that?
Mr.Stombaugh. I was; however, it is not uncommon for fingerprint processing to be given priority consideration. They wanted to know whether or not the gun contained any fibers to show that it had been stored in this blanket, and with all the obstructions and the crevices on the metal parts of this gun, ordinarily a fiber would adhere pretty well, unless you take a brush and brush it off, and then you brush it on the floor and it is lost.
Mr.Eisenberg. Who was "they," you said "they" wanted to know?
Mr.Stombaugh. Well, this is our Dallas office. They sent the gun in wanting to know this fact.
Mr.Eisenberg. Proceed.
Mr.Dulles. It was dusted by the Dallas police, was it, first?
Mr.Stombaugh. I don't know who dusted it.
Mr.Eisenberg. For the record, I believe that will be shown later that it was dusted by Dallas police.
As far as you know, did it come into your office, into your laboratory before it went to the identification division, latent fingerprint section?
Mr.Stombaugh. Yes; I received this gun from Special Agent Vincent Drain of the Dallas FBI office. It was crated very well. I opened the crate myself and put my initials on the gun and at that time I noted it had been dusted for latent prints.
So I proceeded to pick off what fibers were left from the small crevices and small grease deposits which were left on the gun.
At this point of the butt plate, the end of thestock——
Mr.Eisenberg. Let's get that a little more specific if we can. Can you point to that again?
Mr.Stombaugh. In this area, the butt plate of the stock, this is a metal butt plate, you can see the jagged edge on it.
Mr.Eisenberg. That is on the left side of the butt plate?
Mr.Stombaugh. It is on the left side; yes.
Mr.Eisenberg. In approximately in the middle there is a jagged edge, jagged inside edge, where the butt plate comes into contact with the wood, is that what you are referring to?
Mr.Stombaugh. Yes; there is a jagged edge there. This area right here, according to my notes.
Mr.Eisenberg. Yes.
Mr.Stombaugh. I found a tiny tuft of fibers which had caught on that jagged edge, and then when the individual who dusted this dusted them, he just folded them down very neatly into the little crevice there, and they stayed. These I removed and put on a glass microscope slide, and marked this particular slide "No. 2," because this little group of fibers—little tuft of fibers, appeared to be fresh.
The fibers on the rest of the gun were either adhering to a greasy, oily deposit or jammed into a crevice and were very dirty and apparently very old.
You can look at a fiber and tell whether it has been beaten around or exposed much. These appeared to be fairly fresh.
Mr.Eisenberg. "These" being the ones that you found in the butt plate crevice?
Mr.Stombaugh. Yes; adhering to this small jagged edge.
Mr.Eisenberg. Before we get to those, were there any other fibers of value on the rest of the Exhibit 139?
Mr.Stombaugh. No; the other fibers I cleaned up, removed the grease and examined them but they were of no value. They were pretty well fragmented.
Mr.Eisenberg. You could not make a determination as to their nature?
Mr.Stombaugh. I could tell what type they were.
Mr.Eisenberg. Meaning textile type?
Mr.Stombaugh. Yes; such as wool, cotton, what-have-you, but the grease and the dirt had changed the colors which ruined the characteristics for comparison purposes.
Mr.Eisenberg. Could you tell whether they were old or new?
Mr.Stombaugh. They all appeared old.
Mr.Eisenberg. Whatabout——
Mr.Dulles. What do you mean by old, 2 or 3 months old, 2 or 3 weeks old?
Mr.Stombaugh. Well, a length of time, I would say that in excess of a month or 2 months.
Mr.Dulles. In that area?
Mr.Stombaugh. In that area or longer. They weren't recently put in there. Let's say that.
Mr.Eisenberg. What about the grease, did you attempt to examine the grease?
Mr.Stombaugh. No.
Mr.Eisenberg. Why was that?
Mr.Stombaugh. I could see no need of it at that time.
Mr.Eisenberg. Let's return then to the fibers which you referred to as being fresh, which you said you found in the crevice of the butt plate, and I will ask Mr. Dulles' question in reverse: What do you mean by fresh, why do you call these fresh?
Mr.Stombaugh. In the first place, this was just a small tuft. They were adhering to the gun on a small jagged edge. In other words, the gun had caught on a piece of fabric and pulled these fibers loose. They were clean, they had good color to them, there was no grease on them and they were not fragmented. They looked as if they had just been picked up. They were folded very neatly down in the crevice.
Mr.Eisenberg. Were these fibers in a position where they could have easily been knocked off by rough use?
Mr.Stombaugh. No; they were adhering to the edge rather tightly.
Mr.Eisenberg. In the crevice?
Mr.Stombaugh. Well, it had the jagged edge sticking up and the fibers were folded around it and resting in the crevice.
Mr.Dulles. I think you testified, though, that might have been done in part by the dusting?
Mr.Stombaugh. Yes, sir; I believe when the fingerprintman dusted it he probably ran his brush along the metal portion here.
Mr.Eisenberg. Of the butt plate?
Mr.Stombaugh. Of the butt plate, and at the time the brush folded these down into the crevice.
Mr.Eisenberg. What led you to the particular conclusion that they had been folded into the crevice by the dusting?
Mr.Stombaugh. Because of the presence of fingerprint powder being down in and through the crevice here. It looked as if it had been dusted with a brush. You could make out the bristlemarks of the brush itself.
Mr.Eisenberg. Now assuming your conclusion is accurate that they were dusted into the crevice, and had not been in the crevice originally but had merely adhered to the jagged edge, how much—how rough a handling would it have taken to have gotten them loose from that jagged edge?
Mr.Stombaugh. Well, I would imagine if one took a brush and started brushing pretty hard these would have worked loose and come out.
Mr.Eisenberg. Would the use of the weapon itself have jarred them loose?
Mr.Stombaugh. I doubt it. I doubt it.
Mr.Eisenberg. I am talking now about the jagged edge position, and not the crevice position.
Mr.Stombaugh. You mean breaking them loose? They were adhering to the jagged edge.
Mr.Eisenberg. Yes.
Mr.Stombaugh. It might, of course—there are a lot of factors here you don't know, but they were adhering pretty tightly to the gun. I believe through ordinary handling of the gun eventually they would have worked loose and fallen off.
Mr.Eisenberg. What I can't understand is, when you are talking about the handling of the gun are you talking about the position in which you found them, or are you talking about the position which you deduced they were in before you found them brushed into the crevice?
Mr.Stombaugh. Well, both. The position I found them in. I had to take a pair of tweezers and work them out.
Mr.Eisenberg. Yes?
Mr.Stombaugh. And after I had the fibers lifted up which could have been the original position they were in, then I had to pull them off. They were wrapped around rather snugly to the sharp edge.
Mr.Eisenberg. Now, returning once more to this question of freshness. Would you say they had been placed there within 1 hour, or 1 day, or 1 week of the time when you received the rifle or longer?
Mr.Stombaugh. I couldn't say in that regard to any period of time. I refer, bysaying they appeared fresh, to the fact that the other fibers I removed from this gun were greasy, mashed, and broken, where these were fairly good long fibers. They were not dirty, with the exception of a little bit of fingerprint powder on them which I cleaned off, and the color was good. They were in good shape, not fragmented. They could conceivably have been put on 10 years ago and then the gun put aside and remain the same. Dust would have settled on them, would have changed their color a little bit, but as far as when they got on the gun, I wouldn't be able to say. This would just be speculation on my part.
Mr.Eisenberg. In other words, you concluded they were fresh—well, you said you thought they were fresh, Mr. Stombaugh, and I don't quite understand now whether you seem to be backing off a little from that?
Mr.Stombaugh. No; I am not trying to do that. I am trying to avoid a specific time element, since there are other factors which may enter. I couldn't—this is something that I won't even attempt to do, just say this was on here for 1 hour or 10 minutes, something like that.
But I would say these fibers were put on there in the recent past for this reason. If they had been put on there say 3, 4, 5 weeks or so ago, and the gun used every day, these fibers would have come off.
Am I making myself a little more clear?
Mr.Eisenberg. Yes; you are making yourself clear; yes.
Now, looking at Exhibit 139, the weapon, and Exhibit 140, the blanket, do you think it is possible that the bulge you described before, which you marked "C," might have been caused by some component part of 139, the rifle?
Mr.Stombaugh. Yes. At the time I found the hump in the blanket which I believed you have marked point C.
Mr.Eisenberg. That is point C on the replica piece of paper you have folded up, marked Exhibit 663?
Mr.Stombaugh. I checked the telescopic sight on Exhibit 139, and noted that the approximate length and general shape of thescope——
Mr.Dulles. Exhibit 139 being the blanket?
Mr.Eisenberg. Being the rifle.
Mr.Stombaugh. Were approximately the same so far as length and shape went, and at the time I thought to myself it is quite possible the hump in the blanket could have been made by that telescopic sight.
Mr.Eisenberg. Did you attempt to match up the rifle into the blanket to see if that could be true?
Mr.Stombaugh. No; I didn't want to handle the rifle any more than possible. I took a ruler and measured the scope and then compared the measurement with the hump in the blanket and it was approximately the same.
Mr.Eisenberg. What about the relationship, the spatial relationship of the scope to the end of the gun, as compared with the spatial relationship of the hump in the blanket to the end of the blanket? Were those matching?
Mr.Stombaugh. From the way the blanket was folded at the time, and from measuring this, and not using the gun itself and putting it in contact with the blanket, just from measurements, I determined it is possible that the scope could have made the hump. In other words, the gun could have fitted in there. But I couldn't be absolutely certain on any of this. This is just from measurements.
Mr.Eisenberg. And visual comparison?
Mr.Stombaugh. And visual comparison; yes.
Mr.Eisenberg. Is there any further information you would like to give us concerning your examinations of the paper bag, the rifle, the blanket, or the shirt which we have discussed this morning?
Mr.Stombaugh. Just the fibers I removed.
Mr.Dulles. Are you going to go into the relationship of the fibers that were found in the jagged edge?
Mr.Eisenberg. Yes. Mr. Stombaugh, did you attempt to determine the origin of the fibers which were caught in the butt plate of the rifle?
Mr.Stombaugh. Yes, sir; I did. I tried to match these fibers with the fibers in the blanket, and found that they had not originated from the blanket, because the cotton fibers were of entirely different colors. So I happened to think of the shirt and I made a known sample of the shirt fibers.
Mr.Eisenberg. What does that mean?
Mr.Stombaugh. I removed fibers from the shirt to determine the composition of it and also the colors. I found that the shirt was composed of dark-blue, grayish-black, and orangish-yellow cotton fibers, and that these were the same shades of fibers I had found on the butt plate of the gun.
Mr.Dulles. Did you find all three shades?
Mr.Stombaugh. All three shades; yes, sir.
Mr.Eisenberg. All three shades were found on the fragments that were found in the butt of the gun?
Mr.Stombaugh. Yes.
Mr.Eisenberg. Have you made photographs showing these, color photographs showing these?
Mr.Stombaugh. Yes, sir. Color photographs are very difficult to make microscopically because the color isn't always identical to what you see in the microscope. So these colors are slightly off.
Mr.Eisenberg. You have shown a chart captioned "Microphotograph Showing Match Between Orange-Yellow Cotton Fibers From Butt Plate of Assassination Rifle and Orange-Yellow Cotton Fibers From Oswald's Shirt." Did you take this photograph?
Mr.Stombaugh. No; it was taken under my supervision.
Mr.Eisenberg. It was taken under your supervision.
Mr. Chairman, may I submit this as 674.
Mr.Dulles. It will be admitted, 674.
(The item referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 674, and was received in evidence.)
Mr.Eisenberg. What is the magnification?
Mr.Stombaugh. I believe this was 400 also. I am not certain of this, because the shot itself has also been enlarged.
Mr.Eisenberg. Now you were discussing the reproduction of the color in the photomicrograph?
Mr.Stombaugh. Yes, sir. These are the orangish-yellow fibers. The color is not exactly the same as what one would see under the microscope.
However, you can see that the fibers on both sides, namely, the fiber from the rifle here, andthis——
Mr.Dulles. On the right-handside——
Mr.Stombaugh. On the right-hand side.
Mr.Dulles. Of Exhibit 674?
Mr.Stombaugh. And the fibers from the shirt, which are on the left-hand side of Exhibit 674, do match. The colors are the same and also, we find the same twist in the fiber.
Mr.Eisenberg. Now, was the orange-yellow cotton fiber—were the orange-yellow cotton fibers in the shirt of a uniform shade?
Mr.Stombaugh. Yes; they were all of a uniform shade. It was what we would call a uniform dye job.
Mr.Eisenberg. What about the twist?
Mr.Stombaugh. The twist was about normal. These, you can see here.
Mr.Eisenberg. You are pointing to the right-hand side and left-hand side of 674?
Mr.Stombaugh. You can see the twist to these fibers.
Mr.Eisenberg. Did they have a uniform twist?
Mr.Stombaugh. Uniform.
Mr.Eisenberg. So that the match was identical as to twist and shade, and the fibers in the shirt were uniform in themselves as to these two characteristics, is that correct?
Mr.Stombaugh. Yes; that is correct.
Mr.Eisenberg. Did you take a photograph of the gray-black cotton fibers?
Mr.Stombaugh. These are the gray-black cotton fibers and the color didn't come out well on these in this instance because of time and color process limitations.
Mr.Eisenberg. Just a second. You have a chart here—a photomicrograph—captioned "Microphotograph Showing Match Between Gray-Black Cotton FibersFrom Butt Plate of Assassination Rifle, etc. and Gray-Black Cotton Fibers From Oswald's Shirt."
Did you take these photographs or were they taken under your supervision?
Mr.Stombaugh. Under my supervision.
Mr.Eisenberg. May I have this admitted as 675?
Mr.Dulles. 675, it will be admitted.
(The item referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 675, and received in evidence.)
Mr.Stombaugh. The same would apply to Exhibit 675 as to 674, with the exception of the color. The color on these is much darker and we tried up to last night to duplicate the exact color and this is the best I could come up with under the time and color process limitations. It took us about 4 hours to make a photograph such as this.
Mr.Eisenberg. There is an apparent match of colors in thephotograph——
Mr.Stombaugh. But there isone——
Mr.Eisenberg. I say, there is an apparent match in photographs, in color, or is that just my eyes deceiving me?
Mr.Stombaugh. This one appears to be slightly lighter than this shade.
Mr.Eisenberg. I see.
Mr.Stombaugh. But actually they are both a gray black, almost black in color.
Mr.Eisenberg. But under the microscope they were identical, and a different shade than what we see in Exhibit 675?
Mr.Stombaugh. That is correct.
Mr.Eisenberg. In all these cases did you make your determination of color and match under the microscope, or by use of the photographs?
Mr.Stombaugh. Under the microscope.
Mr.Eisenberg. And these are illustrative and prepared for the Commission's use?
Mr.Stombaugh. Yes, sir.
Mr.Eisenberg. Now, you have a chart of photomicrograph captioned "Match Between Dark Blue Cotton Fibers From Butt Plate of Assassination Rifle, etc." Did you prepare these photographs or were they prepared under your supervision?
Mr.Stombaugh. Under my supervision.
Mr.Eisenberg. May I have these received as Exhibit 676?
Mr.Dulles. 676.
(The item referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 676, and was received in evidence.)
Mr.Eisenberg. What is the magnification of 675 and 676, by the way?
Mr.Stombaugh. All of these were made at approximately 400 diameters.
Mr.Eisenberg. Did you find a color match here?
Mr.Stombaugh. Yes; the color match of the dark blue cotton fibers shows rather well in this photograph, Exhibit 676.
Mr.Eisenberg. Now there is also a violet-colored fiber running through the right-hand side of 676.
Mr.Stombaugh. Yes, sir; I asked the photographer about this when he developed this and I said, "Why did we get this, this is not in the slide at all," and he said that is one of the orange fibers. They use different techniques in bringing out the blue and the yellow-orange in a photomicrograph.
Mr.Dulles. The shades are the fiber of the blanket?
Mr.Stombaugh. No; this shade in the photograph is different from what that fiber actually is. It is in the development process. I am not too familiar with color photography. There is an art to it. However, I do know that there are times and technical limitations on the accuracy of color reproductions.
Mr.Eisenberg. Mr. Stombaugh, were the shades in—were the shades of the dark blue cotton fibers uniform throughout the shirt which is pictured in Commission Exhibit 673?
Mr.Stombaugh. No sir; the dark blue fibers had some lighter shades and some slightly darker shades.
Mr.Eisenberg. About how many different shades?
Mr.Stombaugh. There were only about three in this.
Mr.Eisenberg. Do you recall how many dark blue fibers you got from the butt plate?
Mr.Stombaugh. I believe a total of six or seven fibers from the butt plate and three of them are blue fibers and all matched.
Mr.Eisenberg. Do you recall whether they were one or more shades?
Mr.Stombaugh. Two shades.
Mr.Eisenberg. So that two of the fibers were two different shades of blue?
Mr.Stombaugh. Yes.
Mr.Eisenberg. And they matched two different shades of blue in the shirt out of a total of three different shades of blue?
Mr.Stombaugh. That is correct.
Mr.Eisenberg. And you testified before there were about 50 to 100 ranges of shade of green cotton. What about the ranges in shades of blue cotton?
Mr.Stombaugh. The same would apply to blue cotton.
Mr.Eisenberg. And the ranges in shades of orange yellow cotton?
Mr.Stombaugh. The orange-yellow cotton I havehere——
Mr.Eisenberg. 674.
Mr.Stombaugh. This is a shade of a yellow cotton fiber, it appears orange yellow under a microscope. Sometimes you get greenish yellow. These will vary, the orange-yellow shade itself might be only two variations in orange yellow, but in a greenish yellow it might be 50 to 100.
Mr.Eisenberg. There was a gray-black cotton fiber in the shirt. Were they uniform between themselves as to color?
Mr.Stombaugh. Yes; these were uniform.
Mr.Eisenberg. How many shades of gray, in the gray-black area, can you distinguish?
Mr.Stombaugh. The gray-black in itself would be similar to the orange-yellow and would be possibly two or three.
Mr.Eisenberg. And in the black taken as abroader——
Mr.Stombaugh. Black taken in itself would go from, all the way from, very grayish-light gray all the way down to dense black.
Mr.Eisenberg. How many different shades can you distinguish?
Mr.Stombaugh. Black is different. There are only about 25 or 30 shades, I would say, in black.
Mr.Eisenberg. So you identified the fibers you found on the butt plate as matching the fibers you found in the shirt, not only as to color but as to shades within those colors, out of a range going from 25 in the gray-black or black area to 50 to 100 in the yellow and blue areas?
Mr.Stombaugh. That is correct.
Mr.Eisenberg. And degrees of twist were all the same?
Mr.Stombaugh. They were the same.
Mr.Eisenberg. Any other characteristics?
Mr.Stombaugh. Just type of fibers, they were all cotton fibers.
Mr.Eisenberg. On the basis of these examinations, did you draw a conclusion as to the probability of the cotton fibers found in the butt plate having come from the shirt pictured in Exhibit 673?
Mr.Stombaugh. Yes, sir; it was my opinion that these fibers could easily have come from the shirt.
Mr.Eisenberg. Could you go into that in a little more detail, Mr. Stombaugh?
Mr.Stombaugh. Yes. Mainly because the fibers or the shirt is composed of point one, cotton, and point two, three basic colors. I found all three colors together on the gun.
Now if the shirt had been composed of 10 or 15 different colors and types of fibers and I only had found 3 of them, then I would feel that I had not found enough, but I found fibers on the gun which I could match with the fibers composing this shirt, so I feel the fibers could easily have come from the shirt.
Mr.Eisenberg. Mr. Stombaugh, I asked you a hypothetical question before concerning whether the rifle could have been a mechanism for transferring fibers from the blanket into the paper bag, and as I recall you said it could have.
Now, is it inconsistent with that answer that no fibers were found on the gun which matched the fibers in the blanket?
Mr.Stombaugh. No; because the gun was dusted for fingerprints and any fibers that were loosely adhering to it could have been dusted off.
The only reason, I feel, that these fibers remained on the butt plate is because they were pulled from the fabric by the jagged edge and adhered to the gun and then the fingerprint examiner with his brush, I feel, when brushing and dusting this butt plate, stroked them down into that crevice where they couldn't be knocked off.
In time these fibers would have undoubtedly become dislodged and fallen off the gun.
Mr.Eisenberg. Mr. Stombaugh, is there anything you would like to add to your testimony?
Mr.Stombaugh. No, sir; I can think of nothing else.
Mr.Dulles. And you found no other pieces of fabric or other foreign material on the gun?
Mr.Stombaugh. Nothing that I could associate with either the blanket or the shirt. Ifound——
Mr.Dulles. Or the paper bag?
Mr.Stombaugh. Or the paper bag; no, sir.
Mr.Eisenberg. Just one further question. You said something like, "It was possible the fibers could have come from the shirt." Could you estimate the degree of probability that the fibers came from the shirt, the fibers in the butt plate?
Mr.Stombaugh. Well, this is difficult because we don't know how many different shirts were made out of this same type of fabric, or for that matter how many identical shirts are in existence.
Mr.Eisenberg. Mr. Stombaugh, I gather that, and correct me if I am wrong, that in your area as opposed to the fingerprint area, you prefer to present the facts rather than draw conclusions as to probabilities, is that correct?
Mr.Stombaugh. That is correct. I have been asked this question many times. There are some experts who will say well, the chances are 1 in 1,000, this, that, and the other, and everyone who had said that and been brought to our attention we have been able to prove them wrong, insofar as application to our fiber problems is concerned.
Mr.Eisenberg. You mean prove them wrong in terms of their mathematics?
Mr.Stombaugh. There is just no way at this time to be able to positively state that a particular small group of fibers came from a particular source, because there just aren't enough microscopic characteristics present in these fibers.
We cannot say, "Yes, these fibers came from this shirt to the exclusion of all other shirts."
Mr.Eisenberg. We appreciate your conservatism, but the Commission, of course, has to make an estimate, and what I am trying to find out is whether your conservatism, whether your conclusions, reflect the inability to draw mathematical determinations or conclusions, or reflect your own doubts?
Mr.Stombaugh. No.
Mr.Eisenberg. Can you tell us which that is?
Mr.Stombaugh. There is no doubt in my mind that these fibers could have come from this shirt. There is no way, however, to eliminate the possibility of the fibers having come from another identical shirt.
Mr.Eisenberg. Now, in your mind what do you feel about the origin of the fibers you found in the bag?
Mr.Stombaugh. I didn't find enough fibers in the bag to form an opinion on those.
Now if I would have found, say 15 or 20 fibers and all 15 or 20 matched the fibers from the blanket, then I could say, "Yes, I feel that these very easily could have come from the blanket." But I didn't. I only found two of the many types.
Mr.Eisenberg. Okay. I have no further questions.
Mr.Dulles. Do you have any further questions?
Mr.Murray. No; I have no further questions.
Mr.Dulles. I have no further questions.
Thank you, Mr. Stombaugh, we appreciate your coming.
Mr.Dulles. Would you mind standing and raising your right hand?
Do you swear the testimony you give before the Commission is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Cadigan. Yes, sir.
Mr.Dulles. Thank you.
Mr.Eisenberg. Mr. Cadigan, can you state your full name and position?
Mr.Cadigan. James C. Cadigan, special agent of the FBI, assigned as an examiner of questioned documents in the laboratory here in Washington.
Mr.Eisenberg. What is your education, Mr. Cadigan?
Mr.Cadigan. I have a Master of Science degree from Boston College in Newton, Mass. Upon being appointed in the FBI, I was given on-the-job training, which consisted of working with various examiners, conducting experiments, reading books, attending lectures, and so forth.
Mr.Eisenberg. Mr. Cadigan, how long have you been in the questioned document field?
Mr.Cadigan. Twenty-three and a half years.
Mr.Eisenberg. And during that time have you examined papers to determine their possible origin?
Mr.Cadigan. Yes.
Mr.Eisenberg. Can you estimate the number of such examinations you have conducted?
Mr.Cadigan. No; not with any degree of accuracy, except many, many specimens, many, many comparisons.
Mr.Eisenberg. Have you testified on that subject in court?
Mr.Cadigan. Yes, sir.
Mr.Eisenberg. Many times?
Mr.Cadigan. I won't say many, no; because most of the testimony I have given in court relates to other phases of the work. Strictly on paper, I would say not more than two or three times.
Mr.Eisenberg. But you have made more than two or three examinations of paper?
Mr.Cadigan. Oh, yes; far more.
Mr.Dulles. Running into the hundreds and thousands?
Mr.Cadigan. Yes, sir.
Mr.Eisenberg. Mr. Chairman, may I have this witness admitted as an expert witness?
Mr.Dulles. He shall be admitted as an expert on this subject.
Mr.Eisenberg. Mr. Cadigan, I hand you an object made of paper, Commission Exhibit 142, also known as Commission Exhibit 626, and ask you if you are familiar with this object?
Mr.Cadigan. Yes; I am.
Mr.Eisenberg. And did you examine this object, this paper bag, to determine its origin, possible origin?
Mr.Cadigan. Yes.
Mr.Eisenberg. Can you tell us how you conducted that examination?
Mr.Cadigan. Yes.
I first saw this paper bag on November 23, 1963, in the FBI laboratory, along with the sample of paper and tape from the Texas School Book Depository obtained November 22, 1963, which is FBI Exhibit D-1.
Mr.Eisenberg. Is that the sample that you are referring to, that you are holding in your hand?
Mr.Cadigan. Yes.
Mr.Eisenberg. And that is marked, as you said, "Paper sample from first floor Texas School Book Depository" and has certain other markings including the words "shipping department"?
Mr.Cadigan. Yes.
Mr.Eisenberg. May I have this admitted, Mr. Chairman?
Mr.Dulles. That may be admitted.
Mr.Eisenberg. That will be No. 677.
Mr.Dulles. 677 may be admitted.
(Commission Exhibit No. 677 was marked, and received in evidence.)
Mr.Eisenberg. Did you find out from precisely what portion of the Texas School Book Depository Building this was obtained, Mr. Cadigan?
Mr.Cadigan. Yes; this comes from the first floor, main floor of the Texas School Book Depository, referred to as the shipping room, the whole floor.
Mr.Eisenberg. Now, did you—who supplied you with this sample, this Exhibit 677?
Mr.Cadigan. This exhibit was brought to the laboratory by Special Agent Drain of our Dallas office, who brought all of this evidence in for examination.
Mr.Eisenberg. Did you attempt to determine whether Exhibit 142 had the same origin as the paper in Exhibit 677, or might have had the same origin?
Mr.Cadigan. Yes; I examined the two papers—do you wish me to state my opinion?
Mr.Eisenberg. Yes; please.
Mr.Cadigan. Well, initially, I was requested to compare the two papers to see if they could have originated from the same source. I first measured the paper and the tape samples. Then I looked at them visually by natural light, then incident light and transmitted light.
Mr.Eisenberg. What do you mean by transmitted light?
Mr.Cadigan. Well, light coming right on through the paper.
Mr.Eisenberg.Then——
Mr.Dulles. Natural light?
Mr.Cadigan. Yes; natural light.
Mr.Dulles. As distinct from electric light?
Mr.Cadigan. Both. In the room I am in you can go over to the window for natural light and use ceiling light for artificial light which has a little different property than the outside light.
Mr.Dulles. Yes.
Mr.Cadigan. I looked at the papers under various lightingconditions——
Mr.Eisenberg. Excuse me a minute, Mr. Cadigan, by "transmitted light" you mean the light transmitted when you hold the object between the light source and your own eyes?
Mr.Cadigan. Yes; then I put it under the microscope, and again looked at it from the standpoint of the surface, paper structure, the color, any imperfections. I further noted that on both of thetapes——
Mr.Eisenberg. 142 is the paper bag.
Mr.Cadigan. On 142 and on the tape on 677 there were a series of marks right down about the center of the tape.
Mr.Eisenberg. Can you see those visually with the unaided eye, or only under a microscope?
Mr.Cadigan. I can see them visually. The microscope makes it look clearer.
Mr.Dulles. What are you pointing to now?
Mr.Eisenberg. This line here.
Mr.Dulles. Where is this?
Mr.Cadigan. These are a series of lines running right here about a half-inch high, they are very closely spaced.