Mr.Ball. Do you recall whether or not onFriday——
TheChairman. What was your answer to that?
Mr.Fritz. I did not, I got no such instructions. In fact, we couldn't—we would have taken the precautions without the notice but we did not get the notice, I never heard of that.
Mr.Ball. Do you recall that on Friday, November 22, Wade asked you or did he or didn't District Attorney Wade ask you to transfer Oswald to the county jail for security?
Mr.Fritz. That would be on the night of the 22d?
Mr.Ball. On the night of the 22d.
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir; he asked me if I would transfer him that night.
Mr.Ball. What did you tell him?
Mr.Fritz. I told him we didn't want to transfer him yet. We wanted to talk to him some more. We talked a little bit. He didn't actually want him transferred. He just was more or less talking about whether or not we wanted to transfer him.
Mr.Ball. Now on Saturday Decker called you and asked you to transfer him?
Mr.Fritz. On Saturday did he call me and ask me to transfer him?
Mr.Ball. Yes, that would be the 23d.
Mr.Fritz. No, sir; he did not.
Mr.Ball. Did Chief Curry tell you that Decker had called or anything of that sort?
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir; when I was talking to Chief Curry on one of those conversations, I don't think it is the conversation now when he told me about the hours, I think it is another conversation, I told him, I said, "I don't know whether we were going to transfer him or Decker was going to transfer him," and Chief Curry said, "We are going to transfer him, I have talked to Decker, we are going to transfer him."
Mr.Ball. When were the plans for the transfer made?
Mr.Fritz. When were the plans made?
Mr.Ball. Yes; do you know?
Mr.Fritz. I don't know about that. The only thing I know is what I told you about when the chief told me about would he be ready by 10 o'clock that morning, and I told him I thought we could.
Mr.Ball. You didn't make the plans yourself?
Mr.Fritz. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. They were made by the chief?
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir; they were made by the chief.
Mr.Ball. When did the chief first tell you what the plans were?
Mr.Fritz. That was on the 23d. He didn't tell me about all the plans, of course, at that time because I told you when he came up to tell us about that, when he asked when we were ready to go he told me about the armored car, that is the first I had ever heard of that.
Mr.Ball. Did you ever tell any of the press the time that Oswald would be moved?
Mr.Fritz. No, sir; I don't believe I did. I was interrogated by a bunch of them as I started to leave the office on the night of the 23d. As we started to the elevator, a group of us from my office, and some of the FBI officers, we started to the elevator some 10 or 20 reporters came up and said the chief said we were going to transfer him at 10 o'clock the next morning and if we were and I didn't talk to them so I don't think I ever said much if anything to them because I know one of them followed me almost to my parking lot, I know, asking me questions about the transfer.
Mr.Ball. At 11:15 when they left your office, do you know whether or not there was any broadcast over your radio as to your movements?
Mr.Fritz. On our radio?
Mr.Ball. Yes.
Mr.Fritz. I wouldn't know.
Mr.Ball. Or on any radio, were there any radio broadcasters on your floor at that time?
Mr.Fritz. Any of those newsmen?
Mr.Ball. Newsmen?
Mr.Fritz. Oh, yes; they might not have been on the floor but they were all down in the basement. You are talking about the morning of the 24th?
Mr.Ball. On the morning of the 24th when you were moving?
Mr.Fritz. Any number of them downstairs. I don't remember whether there were any upstairs or not. There probably was maybe a few of them because I don't think there was any time when there wasn't a few of them up there, but we didn't leave through that hall and go through the elevator. We went through the mail elevator.
Mr.Ball. On the 22d and 23d, the third floor was full of newspapermen and photographers?
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir; all the time, completely full.
Mr.Ball. Had they left the third floor on the 24th?
Mr.Fritz. A lot of them had; yes, sir. A lot of them had, and were downstairs in the basement.
Mr.Ball. How about the television cameras?
Mr.Fritz. I noticed—television cameras, they were downstairs too.
Mr.Ball. They weren't up on the third floor?
Mr.Fritz. I don't believe—there could have been one or two of them left up there, I don't think many of them were still up there.
Mr.Ball. Most of them were downstairs?
Mr.Fritz. Most of them were downstairs. I wouldn't say there weren't any up there because I don't think there was any time when there wasn't at least a few of them up there.
Mr.Ball. Now, when you went down the jail elevator and you said you got out and went forward to see if everything was secure. What did you mean by that?
Mr.Fritz. Well, I meant if everything, it was all right for us to go to our car with him. We didn't want to leave the jail office with him unless everything was all right because as long as we were in the jail office we could put him back in the elevator and if everything wasn't all right, I didn't want to come out with him.
Mr.Ball. And you went ahead, didn't you?
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir; first Lieutenant Swain and then I went out and then the other officers followed me with the prisoner.
Mr.Ball. Was the car there you were going to get in?
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Had you reached the car yet?
Mr.Fritz. I was just in the act of reaching for the door to open the back door, I looked at that picture, and it doesn't show the exact distance I was from the car but I couldn't have been any further than reaching distance.
Mr.Ball. When you left, or after Ruby shot Oswald, he was taken upstairs, wasn't he?
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir; he was. He was first carried into the jail office, you mean Ruby?
Mr.Ball. Ruby, when Ruby shot Oswald?
Mr.Fritz. Oswald was carried into the jail office and put on the floor there. Ruby was brought into the jail office. Now I believe that Ruby was brought into the jail office after Oswald, I believe Oswald was already on the floor or behind there because I know the officers had taken Ruby upstairs went behind me and I saw them pass behind me with him to the jail.
Mr.Ball. Did you talk to Ruby?
Mr.Fritz. Did I talk to him; no, sir; I talked to him later.
Mr.McCloy. I wonder if at this time you would want a little recess?
Mr.Fritz. No, sir; I am comfortable.
Mr.McCloy. I think we kept the chief on a little bit too long this morning.
Mr.Fritz. If it is all right with you.
Mr.Ball. Did you talk to Ruby at that time?
Mr.Fritz. No, sir; not at that time.
Mr.Ball. Later?
Mr.Fritz. I talked to him later, probably an hour later. I guess I have the exact time here if you need it.
Mr.Ball. What did Ruby say to you, do you have the exact time?
Mr.Fritz. Well, he told me, I told him, I, of course, wanted to know something about premeditation because I was thinking about the trial too and I told him I wanted to ask him some questions and he said, well, he first said, "I don't want to talk to you, I want to talk to my lawyers," and he said, I believe he told me too that he had been advised by a lawyer, and I asked him some other question and he said, "Now if you will level with me and you won't make me look like a fool in front of my lawyers I will talk to you."
I didn't ask him one way or the other, but I did ask him some questions and he told me that he shot him, told me that he was all torn up about the Presidential killing, that he felt terribly sorry for Mrs. Kennedy. He didn't want to see her to have to come back to Dallas for a trial, and a lot of other things like that.
Mr.Ball. Did you ask him how he got down to the jail?
Mr.Fritz. Yes; I did.
Mr.Ball. What did he say?
Mr.Fritz. He told me he came down that ramp from the outside. So I told him, I said, "No, you couldn't have come down that ramp because there would be an officer at the top and an officer at the bottom and you couldn't come down that ramp." He said, "I am not going to talk to you any more, I am not going to get into trouble," and he never talked to me any more about it.
Mr.Ball. Did you ever talk to him again?
Mr.Fritz. I don't think I ever talked to him after that. I talked to him a little while then and I don't believe I ever talked to him after that. I asked him when he first decided to kill Oswald, and he didn't tell me that. He told me something else, talked about something else.
Mr.Ball. What was that time, you said you could give us the time?
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir; I can give you the time. 3:05.
Mr.Ball. What time?
Mr.Fritz. 3:05.
Mr.Ball. 3:05 in the afternoon?
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did you know that Archer or Dean or Newman had talked to Ruby?
Mr.Fritz. I didn't know that they had talked to him. I knew that some officers had talked to him but I didn't know who they were.
Mr.Ball. Were there any reports given you by any one of these three men,Dean——
Mr.Fritz. They weren't given to me. Those reports were given to the investigative team that the chief setup headed by Captain Jones and some of the inspectors and they gave me a copy. I have copies of it.
Mr.Ball. You have copies of those reports?
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr.Ball. Do you know, did you know prior to the trial of Ruby that either Dean or Archer or Newman, either one, had claimed to have talked to Ruby about his premeditation in the killing of Oswald?
Mr.Fritz. Well, sir, I didn't know, I wouldn't have known that. They never told me about that. I wouldn't have known. I think that maybe the chief had taken some report from Dean, but I didn't see that until, I think I put it in this book a few days ago.
Mr.Ball. Well now, did you have charge of the investigation of the Oswald killing?
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. You were in charge of that?
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Then all the reports would come to you?
Mr.Fritz. Come here; yes, sir. With one exception. The reports from all those officers in the security in the basement. You see, I had nothing to do with setting up the security in the basement, that was under the security division and the chief might have given that assignment to, those are in a different book, they are in a report made to this investigative team appointed by the chief. We have their copies, too.
Mr.Ball. Well, but you had charge of the investigation of the homicide?
Mr.Fritz. The homicide but I didn't have charge of the investigation of the basement incident.
Mr.Ball. Well, the reason for my question is that there has been some question raised as to testimony in the Ruby trial of these men, Dean, Archer, and Newman.
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir; I heard that.
Mr.Ball. And they have testified to certain statements made that they heard from Ruby afterward, and the question is whether or not these men have reported to you that they had heard that.
Mr.Fritz. They didn't report it to me; no, sir.
Mr.Ball. Or reported it in writing to their department?
Mr.Fritz. They didn't report it to me, if they reported to anyone I didn'tget it. But I understand that Dean had made some kind of special report to the chief but that wasn't to me.
Mr.Ball. Did you ever know a man named Roger Craig, a deputy sheriff?
Mr.Fritz. Roger Craig, I might if I knew which one he was. Do we have it here?
Mr.Ball. He was a witness from whom you took a statement in your office or some of your men.
Mr.Fritz. Some of my officers.
Mr.Ball. He is a deputy sheriff.
Mr.Fritz. One deputy sheriff who started to talk to me but he was telling me some things that I knew wouldn't help us and I didn't talk to him but someone else took an affidavit from him. His story that he was telling didn't fit with what we knew to be true.
Mr.Ball. Roger Craig stated that about 15 minutes after the shooting he saw a man, a white man, leave the Texas State Book Depository Building, run across a lawn, and get into a white Rambler driven by a colored man.
Mr.Fritz. I don't think that is true.
Mr.Ball. I am stating this. You remember the witness now?
Mr.Fritz. I remember the witness; yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did that man ever come into your office and talk to you in the presence of Oswald?
Mr.Fritz. In the presence of Oswald?
Mr.Ball. Yes.
Mr.Fritz. No, sir; I am sure he did not. I believe that man did come to my office in that little hallway, you know outside my office, and I believe I stepped outside the door and talked to him for a minute and I let someone else take an affidavit from him. We should have that affidavit from him if it would help.
Mr.Ball. Now this man states that, has stated, that he came to your office and Oswald was in your office, and you asked him to look at Oswald and tell you whether or not this was the man he saw, and he says that in your presence he identified Oswald as the man that he had seen run across this lawn and get into the white Rambler sedan. Do you remember that?
Mr.Fritz. I think it was taken, I think it was one of my officers, and I think if he saw him he looked through that glass and saw him from the outside because I am sure of one thing that I didn't bring him in the office with Oswald.
Mr.Ball. You are sure you didn't?
Mr.Fritz. I am sure of that. I feel positive of that. I would remember that I am sure.
Mr.Ball. He also says that in thatoffice——
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. After he had said, "That is the man," that Oswald got up from his chair and slammed his hand on the table and said, "Now everybody will know who I am." Did that ever occur in your presence?
Mr.Fritz. If it did I never saw anything like that; no, sir.
Mr.Ball. That didn't occur?
Mr.Fritz. No, sir; it didn't. That man is not telling a true story if that is what he said. Do you have any—could I ask a question, is it all right if I ask a question?
Mr.McCloy. All right, go ahead.
Mr.Ball. Go ahead.
Mr.Fritz. I was going to ask if we had any affidavits from any of our officers that would back that up? If they did I never heard of it.
Mr.Ball. If you are here tomorrow.
Mr.Fritz. It is something I don't know anything about.
Mr.Ball. If you are here tomorrow I would like to show you the deposition of the man for you to read it.
Mr.Fritz. I am sure I would know that. The only time I saw the man hit the desk was when Mr. Hosty talked to him and he really got upset about that.
Mr.Dulles. Is that in the testimony, have you testified about that?
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir.
Mr.McCloy. That shows his agitation over thealleged——
Mr.Fritz. Questioning.
Mr.McCloy. Questioning of his wife.
Mr.Fritz. That is right.
Mr.Ball. In the light of your experience in this case, do you think you should alter your regulations with the press, have a little more discipline when the press are around?
Mr.Fritz. We can with the local press. We can't do much with those people that we don't know from those foreign countries, and from distant States, they don't ask us. They just write what they hear of and we read it.
Mr.Ball. No; but I mean in the physical control of your plant there?
Mr.Fritz. There at city hall?
Mr.Ball. Do you think you should alter your policy?
Mr.Fritz. We think we can control it normally, because those officers, those people from the press there wouldn't come in and start taking pictures without permission. They wouldn't do that without asking, and then usually I ask a prisoner because some prisoners don't want their pictures taken and sometimes they do, if they want it taken why it is all right. Sometimes we don't let them take them at all, depending on circumstances.
Mr.Ball. Do you permit television interrogation of your prisoners in jail?
Mr.Fritz. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Or inthe——
Mr.Fritz. In the jail I don't have charge of the jail but I am sure they don't because I haven't heard of that. We don't have it in the office either.
Mr.McCloy.But——
Mr.Fritz. I don't think it is a good idea at all because I don't know what that man might say.
Mr.Ball. I agree.
Mr.McCloy. You would have jurisdiction to keep out foreign correspondents if you wanted to?
Mr.Fritz. Keep them out of the office; yes, sir.
Mr.McCloy. Keep them out of the building?
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir; I wouldn't have charge of the building but I can keep them out of my office, up to that door, I can have enough officers I can take care of that fine. Out in that building, that is more or less a job for the uniform division.
Mr.Dulles. A job for the uniform division, the police?
Mr.Fritz. A job for the uniform division, they can take charge of it and they have uniforms.
Mr.Dulles. Who establishes the policy?
Mr.Fritz. The chief of police establishes the policy. He has assistants, of course.
Mr.McCloy. You have testified that you were really hampered in your investigation, in your interrogation of Oswald by reason of the confusion.
Mr.Fritz. I think so.
Mr.McCloy. By reason of too many people being around, isn't that right?
Mr.Fritz. I think so, but I am not sure that could have been avoided under these circumstances.
Mr.McCloy. Well, couldn'tyou——
Mr.Fritz. I thinkthat——
Mr.McCloy. Couldn't you have demanded that your office be cleared so that you could have a quiet investigation?
Mr.Fritz. I could hardly tell the Secret Service and the FBI or any other Federal agency—I had the outer office had Texas Rangers out there, several of them, and you could understand why they would be in there because the Governor had been shot and they work directly for the Governor out of Austin, so you could hardly tell people like that that you don't want them to help.
Now, if this were just an average case, just an average hijacking case we have, we could easily, we could handle it with all ease but where the President of the United States is killed it would be hard to tell the Secret Service and the FBI that they couldn't come in.
Mr.McCloy. But you could have told the newspaper people, the media people that they couldn't come in.
Mr.Fritz. I didn't let them come in my office or in my part of the office.
Mr.McCloy. They never were in your office when you were examining Oswald?
Mr.Fritz. Never. I think one of them got inside of the outer office but someone immediately put him out.
Mr.Dulles. What is the jurisdiction of the city manager as compared to the chief of police, does he have authority over the chief of police?
Mr.Fritz. The city manager is our big boss, he is over all of us. He is over the chief of police and he operates the city. He is responsible only to the mayor and city council. And I think that they give him a pretty free hand.
We have got a city manager and he tells, he sets the policies, of course, maybe I made a mistake when I told you that the chief of police sets the policies of our police department, but the city manager would set the policies for the city as a whole.
Mr.Ball. I have no further questions.
Mr.McCloy. Do you have anything else that you think that is on your mind that might help us in getting at the rockbottom of either the Oswald murder or the President's murder?
Mr.Fritz. I believe that you people know about everything that we know. We have tried to get everything in this book. We have tried not to withhold anything, and I will tell you something about this case that I told some people in the beginning.
I don't know of anything about this case that we can't tell all about, the truth about it from start to finish now. I think the truth fits it better than anything we can do to it. I hope I have gotten this story to you correctly. I hope I haven't made some mistakes in some of my testimony about time and the dates and things because if Ihave——
Mr.McCloy. Are there any further leads that you would like to follow up or do you feel that the case is from your point of view closed in termsof—
Mr.Fritz. We won't ever close it. We never close any murder case and we won't ever close it. I will tell you what, if anything came up about this case that we thought we could do to help on it, and it came up 10 years from now we would work on it. We would work on it regardless of what time it came up. I do think this, that there have been a lot of things about this case that we won't be able to handle. If we get any information about anything that involves foreign relations we will pass that on to the people who know what to do with it. We won't try to handle anything like that because we might do a very wrong thing. We would give that to either the FBI or the Secret Service, depending on the type of information it was, and they would pass it on to wherever they wanted to.
Mr.McCloy. Are there any pending leads in this case that you feel that you would like to follow up beyond?
Mr.Fritz. Right now?
Mr.McCloy. Right now.
Mr.Fritz. I don't believe we have one. Do you think of any lead to follow up? I can't think of one. If I thought of one we would sure start on it. But I don't think we have.
Mr.Ball. There is one problem here in your records that we asked about. Where was Oswald between 12:35 a.m., and 1:10 a.m., on Saturday, November 23, that is right after midnight?
Mr.Fritz. Right after midnight.
Mr.Ball. The jailer's records show he was checked out.
Mr.Fritz. I think I know where he was right after midnight. I think he went to the identification bureau to be fingerprinted and have his picture made.
Mr.Ball. You know. You can probably advise him and he can tell us. What is it?
Mr.Fritz. I think that, if it is the time that I am thinking about, if it is the time that after he was, after he had his arraignment, I think from what we found out since then that he went there for picture and fingerprints.
Mr.Ball. I have no further questions.
Mr.Fritz. Maybe you should ask Lieutenant Baker here something that I don't know anything about, that he knows, that might help to clarify that question you asked me just then. I thought he went for the picture, but tell him.
Mr.McCloy. Lieutenant, will you be sworn, please?
Raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Baker. I do.
Mr.Ball. State your name.
Mr.Baker. T. L. Baker.
Mr.Ball. What is your occupation?
Mr.Baker. Lieutenant, police department, Dallas, Tex.
Mr.Ball. You are up here with Captain Fritz?
Mr.Baker. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And you are the man who prepared Commission Document 81-B; is that correct?
Mr.Baker. I assisted in it, sir.
Mr.Ball. You were sort of the editor, is that right?
Mr.Baker. Something like that.
Mr.Ball. The question we addressed to Captain Fritz was where was Oswald between the 12:35 and, I believe, 1:10 in the evening, 1:10 a.m., on Saturday, November 23, that is, right after midnight?
Mr.Baker. Yes, sir; at 12:35 a.m., Lieutenant Knight of the I.D. bureau took him out of the jail on the fifth floor and with the assistance of Sergeant Warren and one of the jailers brought him to the fourth floor where the I.D. bureau was located.
Mr.McCloy. The I.D. bureau is the identification bureau?
Mr.Baker. Yes, sir. There in the presence of Sergeant Warren and this jailer, one of his assistants, he was processed through the I.D. bureau, which consists of taking his pictures and fingerprints and making up the different circulars that go to the FBI, and so forth. When they had finished processing him, he returned him to the jail. Lieutenant Knight released him. He was placed back in the jail at 1:10. Approximately 1:30 Sergeant Warren received a call from Chief Curry, advising him to bring him back to the identification bureau the same place, for arraignment. Sergeant Warren and the same jailer returned him to the I.D. bureau, where he was arraigned by Judge Johnston at approximately 1:35 a.m. This arraignment took approximately 10 minutes, and he was returned to the fifth-floor jail by Sergeant Warren at approximately 1:45 a.m.
Mr.Ball. That is all.
Mr.McCloy. Thank you very much.
Mr.Dulles. Could I ask just one question?
Mr.Fritz. Yes, sir.
Mr.Dulles. Had you or your office, to your knowledge, ever heard of Oswald prior to November 22, 1963?
Mr.Fritz. No, sir; I never heard of him, and I don't believe anyone in my office had ever heard of him, because none of them knew him when we got him. That was ourfirst——
Mr.Dulles. There are no reports; you found no reports in your files?
Mr.Fritz. No, sir.
Mr.Dulles. About him that antedated November 22, 1963?
Mr.Fritz. We had no reports on him at all.
Mr.McCloy. Did you ever hear of a man named Weissman? Does that mean anything to you, Bernard Weissman?
Mr.Fritz. The name sounds familiar. I don't know him. I saw that ad that he had in the paper, and had his name signed to it at the bottom.
Mr.McCloy. But that is all you know about him?
Mr.Fritz. That is all I know about him.
Mr.McCloy. Any other questions?
Mr.Dulles. I have no other questions.
Mr.McCloy. We are through. We thank you very much for your cooperation, Captain.
Mr.McCloy. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give at this hearing will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Day. I do.
Mr.Belin. State your name for the Commission.
Mr.Day. J. C. Day.
Mr.Belin. What is your occupation?
Mr.Day. Lieutenant, Dallas Police Department assigned to the crime scene search section of the identification bureau.
Mr.Belin. How old are you?
Mr.Day. Fifty.
Mr.Belin. How long have you been associated with the Dallas Police Department?
Mr.Day. Twenty-three years.
Mr.Belin. Did you go to school in Texas?
Mr.Day. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. How far did you get through school?
Mr.Day. Through high school.
Mr.Belin. And then what did you do?
Mr.Day. I went to work for a machinery company there in Dallas for about 9 years before I went with the city.
Mr.Belin. Then you went there directly to the city?
Mr.Day. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Were you on duty on November 22, 1963?
Mr.Day. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Could you describe your activities from about noon on of that day?
Mr.Day. I was in the identification bureau at the city hall. About a quarter of one I was in the basement of the city hall, which is three floors under me—actually I am on the fourth floor—and a rumor swept through there that the President had been shot.
I returned to my office to get on the radio and wait for the developments. Shortly before 1 o'clock I received a call from the police dispatcher to go to 411 Elm Street, Dallas.
Mr.Belin. Is there any particular building at that particular location?
Mr.Day. The Texas School Book Depository, I believe is the correct name on it.
Mr.Belin. Did you go there?
Mr.Day. Yes, sir; I went out of my office almost straight up 1 o'clock. I arrived at the location on Elm about 1:12.
Mr.Belin. What did you do when you got there?
Mr.Day. I was directed to the sixth floor by the police inspector who was at the front door when I arrived.
Mr.Belin. Do you know who that was?
Mr.Day. Inspector Sawyer.
Mr.Belin. What did you do when you got to the sixth floor?
Mr.Day. I had to go up the stairs. The elevator—we couldn't figure out how to run it. When I got to the head of the stairs, I believe it was the patrolman standing there, I am not sure, stated they had found some hulls over in the northeast corner of the building, and I proceeded to that area—excuse me, southeast corner of the building.
Mr.Belin. Now, in your 23 years of work for the Dallas Police Department, have you had occasion to spend a good number of these years in crime-scene matters?
Mr.Day. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. How long, about?
Mr.Day. The past 7 years I have been—I have had immediate supervision of the crime-scene search section. It is our responsibility to go to the scene of the crime, take photographs, check for fingerprints, collect any other evidence that might be available, and primarily we are to assist the investigators with certain technical parts of the investigation.
Mr.Belin. Do you carry any equipment of any kind with you when you go there?
Mr.Day. Yes, sir. We have a station wagon equipped with fingerprint equipment, cameras, containers, various other articles that might be needed at the scene of the crime.
Mr.Belin. Have you had any special education or training or background insofar as your crime-scene work is concerned?
Mr.Day. In the matter of fingerprints, I have been assigned to the identification bureau 15 years. During that time I have attended schools, the Texas Department of Public Safety, on fingerprinting; also an advanced latent-print school conducted in Dallas by the Federal Bureau of Investigation. I have also had other schooling with the Texas Department of Public Safety and in the local department on crime-scene search and general investigative work.
Mr.Belin. Now, I believe you said that you were informed when you got there that they had located some hulls?
Mr.Day. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. What did you do then?
Mr.Day. I went to the northeast corner—southeast corner of the building, and first made photographs of the three hulls.
Mr.McCloy. What floor was this?
Mr.Day. On the sixth floor. I took photographs of the three hulls as they were found before they were moved.
Mr.Belin. I am going to hand you some pictures here and ask you to say if these pictures are the photographs you took. First, I will hand you a picture marked "Commission Exhibit 715," and ask you to state, if you know, what this is.
Mr.Day. Yes, sir. That is one of the photographs we made of the hulls on the floor.
Mr.Belin. Now, who took the actual picture?
Mr.Day. Detective Studebaker; R. L. Studebaker.
Mr.Belin. Who is he?
Mr.Day. At my direction.
Mr.Belin. Who is he?
Mr.Day. He is one of the officers who took this under my supervision, and he accompanied me from the office to this building.
Mr.Belin. Can you see in this picture the location of the hulls?
Mr.Day. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. I wonder if you could take this pen and circle the hulls that you see there.
Mr.McCloy. I only see two.
Mr.Day. The other one doesn't show in this picture, I don't believe.
Mr.Belin. You have circled two hulls that appear to be resting near what would be the south wall of the building; is that correct?
Mr.Day. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Can you see the third hull in that picture?
Mr.Day. I think you can barely see the tip end of it sticking out there. I believe that is it.
Mr.Belin. Do you want to circle where you think you can see the third tip sticking out? I am now going to hand you what is marked "Commission Exhibit No. 716," and ask you to state, if you know, what this is.
Mr.Day. This is another view taken from a different angle of the same location. All three hulls are clearly visible here.
Mr.Belin. Would you circle the three hulls on Exhibit 716? Do you know whether or not Exhibit 716 and Exhibit 715 were taken before these hulls were moved?
Mr.Day. They were taken before anything was moved, to the best of my knowledge. I was advised when I got there nothing had been moved.
Mr.Belin. Who so advised you?
Mr.Day. I believe it was Detective Sims standing there, but I could be wrong about that.
Mr.Belin. Now, turning again to Exhibit 715, I notice that there is a box in a window which is partially open. I am going to first ask you to state what window this is.
Mr.Day. This is the south window closest to Houston Street or, in other words, it is the easternmost window on the south side of the building on the sixth floor.
Mr.Belin. Was this window in about the same location with respect to how far it was open at the time you got there?
Mr.Day. That is the position it was in when I got there.
Mr.Belin. All right. I notice boxes throughout the picture, including the box in the window. To the best of your knowledge, had any of those boxes been moved prior to the time the picture, Exhibit 715, was taken?
Mr.Day. No, sir; they had not.
Mr.Belin. Now, I am going to show you a picture which has been identified previously in Commission testimony as Commission Exhibit 482, which purports to have been a picture taken by a newspaper photographer shortly after the assassination, showing the easternmost windows on the south side of the fifth and the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building.
You will notice there are two Negro males looking out of the lower pair of windows, which would be the fifth-floor windows, and above that there is one window which appears to be open with a box or boxes in it.
I am going to first ask you to state whether or not the boxes in that picture, Exhibit 482, appear to be in the same location as you saw them when you first got on the crime scene.
Mr.Day. Yes, sir; I believe they are.
Mr.Belin. Now, as you face the picture, the box to the right, which would be to the east, has a corner sticking out, or just a corner of the box shows. Is that the same box that appears to be resting on the window ledge in Exhibit 715?
Mr.Day. In my opinion, it is.
Mr.Belin. I also note there is another box that appears to be in the window on Exhibit 482. Is this box shown at all on either Exhibit 715 or 716, if you know?
Mr.Day. No; I don't think it is.
Mr.Belin. What do you think happened to this other box in the window on Exhibit 482?
Mr.Day. I think the box you see through the window is to the west of the box you see here.
Mr.Belin. You are pointing out that the box you see in the window, and you are now pointing to Exhibit482——
Mr.Day. I think that is east of the four boxes shown in your No. 715. Well, thereare——
Mr.Belin. Let me give you another question. On Exhibit 715 there is only one box shown in the window actually resting on the ledge, which is the box that you identified the corner out of in the eastern part of the window shown on 482.
Now, what is the fact as to whether or not this other box on 482 would have been resting on the ledge, or is it a pictorial view of something that actually was in back of the window?
Mr.Day. I think this is one of the boxes 2 feet 11 inches back from the wall. There were two stacks of them, one behind the window sill that you see here.
Mr.Belin. You are pointing to the window sill between the pair of windows on Exhibit 482?
Mr.Day. That you can't see in this picture. This one is the other one I am trying to say, this stack here—there are two stacks of boxes here. This one is behind here. You can't see it.
Mr.Belin. What you are pointing is, as you point to Exhibit 715, you are saying that the tier of boxes which is in the left foreground, if you were standing outside taking a picture, would be hidden by the heavy beam between the windows, but beyond that, to the east of that, there is another tier of boxes of which you think this other box in Exhibit 482 is one; am I correct? Is this correct?
Mr.Day. That is correct.
Mr.Belin. Handing you Exhibit 716, will you see this at all on Exhibit 716?
Mr.Day. This is the box, I think, showing here.
Mr.Belin. Do you want to make an X on the box on Exhibit 716 that you think is the other box showing in the window on Exhibit 482?
Mr.Day. The corner that is showing I don't believe shows in the picture.
Mr.Belin. All right. You put an X on a box which I would say, looking at this picture, appears to be the fourth box starting from the bottom count, and you believe that is the picture or—that is the box that is shown in the window?
Mr.Day. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. All right.
Mr.Day. I don't know what time this was taken. Do you?
Mr.Belin. Well, you are asking with regard to Exhibit 482? We know it was taken, I would say, not more than a minute after the shooting. This is our best recollection based on testimony of the two people in the window below, because this was their position as they saw the shooting, and the photographer himself says that after the shots were fired, he jumped out of the motorcade and took two shots of the building. This could have been the first or the second shot he took. He used two different cameras, so I don't imagine it would have been very long after the actual shots were fired.
For the record, I should add one other thing at this point. There is testimony by the deputy sheriff that found the shells, that after he found them he leaned out of the window to call down to try and tell someone that he found something, and it is conceivable that he moved a box, although he did not so testify. In other words, I don't want you to take this as the testimony ofanyone——
Mr.Day. What I am getting at, this box doesn't jibe with my picture of the inside.
Mr.Belin. You are pointing now to the other box on Exhibit 482. You say that does not jibe with the chart that you have here that you brought with you of boxes that you had inside.
Let me ask you this: When did you prepare your chart of boxes inside?
Mr.Day. This chart here was prepared on the 25th. However, pictures were made immediately after my arrival.
Mr.Belin. You are talking now about Exhibit 715 and Exhibit 716?
Mr.Day. Yes, sir; don't jibe with that box there.
Mr.Belin. What I am asking you then is this: Is it possible that the box that is shown on Exhibit 482 is not shown on Exhibit 715 and Exhibit 716? By that I mean not the box that you see a corner of, but I am talking about the other box that is clear to the west of the easternmost window.
Mr.Day. I just don't know. I can't explain that box there depicted from the outside as related to the pictures that I took inside.
Mr.Belin. In other words, what you are saying is that on the sixth floor window the westernmost box on Exhibit 482, you cannot then relate to any of the boxes shown on Exhibits 715 or 716?
Mr.Day. That is correct.
Mr.Belin. Do you wish to correct your testimony with regard to the X you placed on the fourth box on the stack in Exhibit 716?
Mr.Day. Yes; that is just not the same box. It is not the same box. This is the first time I have seen No. 482.
Mr.Belin. All right. We will substitute for 716 then a copy of the picture without the X mark on it.
Mr.McCloy. 482 was taken by the news photographer?
Mr.Belin. Yes, sir.
Mr.McCloy. Immediately after the shooting?
Mr.Belin. Yes, sir.
Mr.McCloy. The two colored men were still in the position where they were?
Mr.Belin. Yes, sir. He actually took two pictures. He took one of the building—that showed most of the south side of the building, and another with a different kind of lens that was aimed up to that particular corner. I will check to see if I can find the other picture, Mr McCloy. Commission Exhibit 480 is the first picture that he took, or I shouldn't say the first—one of the two pictures he took.
You can see the southeast corner window on the sixth floor, and I will show you, Lieutenant Day, that you can still see two of those boxes there, and you can see on the window below, at least you can see, one of the Negro men. The other picture was Exhibit 481, and I believe 482 was actually an enlargement of 481.
Mr.Day. I still don't quite understand that one in relation to pictures here unless something was moved after this was taken before I got there.
Mr.Belin. What you are saving is on that southeast corner window, on the sixth floor, you do not understand the box that is the westernmost box of the two boxes in the window unless it was moved by someone before you got there to take the pictures?
Mr.Day. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. What about the other box as shown on Exhibit 482, does that appear to be in substantially the same position as the box in the window shown on your Exhibit 715?
Mr.Day. Yes, sir; it appears to be the same.
Mr.Belin. Now, on Exhibit 715, that box appears to be almost resting against the east part of the window where it does not so appear on Exhibit 482. Is this an optical illusion on 715?
Mr.Day. Yes, sir; I don't think it was up against the window sill. It was over as indicated on 482.
Mr.Belin. Lieutenant Day, you took some two pictures of those shell casings. Let me first get you through all the pictures you took.
Where did you next take pictures on the sixth floor after you took the pictures of the shell casing; what did you do then?
Mr.Day. I went, after these were taken—after yournumber——
Mr.Belin. 715 and 716.
Mr.Day. Were taken, I processed these three hulls for fingerprints, using a powder. Mr. Sims picked them up by the ends and handed them to me. I processed each of the three; did not find fingerprints. As I had finished that, Captain Fritz sent word for me to come to the northwest part of the building, the rifle had been found, and he wanted photographs.
Mr.Belin. All right. You have mentioned these three hulls. Did you put any initials on those at all, any means of identification?
Mr.Day. At that time they were placed in an envelope and the envelope marked. The three hulls were not marked at that time. Mr. Sims took possession of them.
Mr.Belin. Well, did you at any time put any mark on the shells?
Mr.Day. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. All right. Let me first hand you what has been marked as "Commission Exhibit," part of "Commission Exhibit 543–544," and ask you to state if you know what that is.
Mr.Day. This is the envelope the shells were placed in.
Mr.Belin. How many shells were placed in that envelope?
Mr.Day. Three.
Mr.Belin. It says here that, it is written on here, "Two of the three spent hulls under window on sixth floor."
Mr.Day. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Did you put all three there?
Mr.Day. Three were in there when they were turned over to Detective Sims at that time. The only writing on it was, "Lieut. J. C. Day." Down here at the bottom.
Mr.Belin. I see.
Mr.Day. "Dallas Police Department," and the date.
Mr.Belin. In other words, you didn't put the writing in that says, "Two of the three spent hulls."
Mr.Day. Not then. About 10 o'clock in the evening this envelope came back to me with two hulls in it. I say it came to me, it was in a group of stuff, a group of evidence, we were getting ready to release to the FBI. I don't know who brought them back. Vince Drain, FBI, was present with the stuff, the first I noticed it. At that time there were two hulls inside.
I was advised the homicide division was retaining the third for their use. At that time I marked the two hulls inside of this, still inside this envelope.
Mr.Belin. That envelope, which is a part of Commission Exhibits 543 and 544?
Mr.Day. Yes, sir; I put the additional marking on at that time.
Mr.Belin. I see.
Mr.Day. You will notice there is a little difference in the ink writing.
Mr.Belin. But all of the writing there is yours?
Mr.Day. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Now, at what time did you put any initials, if you did put any such initials, on the hull itself?
Mr.Day. At about 10 o'clock when I noticed it back in the identification bureau in this envelope.
Mr.Belin. Had the envelope been opened yet or not?
Mr.Day. Yes, sir; it had been opened.
Mr.Belin. Had the shells been out of your possession then?
Mr.Day. Mr. Sims had the shells from the time they were moved from the building or he took them from me at that time, and the shells I did not see again until around 10 o'clock.
Mr.Belin. Who gave them to you at 10 o'clock?
Mr.Day. They were in this group of evidence being collected to turn over to the FBI. I don't know who brought them back.
Mr.Belin. Was the envelope sealed?
Mr.Day. No, sir.
Mr.Belin. Had it been sealed when you gave it to Mr. Sims?
Mr.Day. No, sir; no.
Mr.Belin. Handing you what has been marked "Exhibit 545," I will ask you to state if you know what this is.
Mr.Day. This is one of the hulls in the envelope which I opened at 10 o'clock. It has my name written on the end of it.
Mr.Belin. When you say, on the end of it, where on the end of it?
Mr.Day. On the small end where the slug would go.
Mr.Belin. And it has "Day" on it?
Mr.Day. Scratched on there; yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. With what instrument did you scratch it on?
Mr.Day. A diamond point pencil.
Mr.Belin. Did anyone else scratch any initials on it that you know of?
Mr.Day. I didn't see them. I didn't examine it too close at that time.
Mr.Belin. Do you know what kind of a cartridge case that is?
Mr.Day. It is a 6.5.
Mr.Belin. Is that the same kind of a cartridge case that you saw when you first saw these cartridge cases?
Mr.Day. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Is there any other testimony you have with regard to the chain of possession of this shell from the time it was first found until the time it got back to your office?
Mr.Day. No, sir; I told you in our conversation in Dallas that I marked those at the scene. After reviewing my records, I didn't think I was on all three of those hulls that you have, indicating I did not mark them at the scene, then I remembered putting them in the envelope, and Sims taking them.
It was further confirmed today when I noticed that the third hull, which I did not give you, or come to me through you, does not have my mark on it.
Mr.Belin. Now, I did interview you approximately 2 weeks ago in Dallas, more or less?
Mr.Day. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. At that time what is the fact as to whether or not I went intoextended questions and answers as contrasted with just asking you to tell me about certain areas as to what happened? I mean, I questioned you, of course, but was it more along the lines of just asking you to tell me what happened, or more along the lines of interrogation, the interrogation we are doing now?
Mr.Day. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Which one?
Mr.Day. Wait a minute now. Say that again. I am at a loss.
Mr.Belin. Maybe it would be easier if I just struck the question and started all over again.
Mr.Day. I remember you asking me if I marked them.
Mr.Belin. Yes.
Mr.Day. I remember I told you I did.
Mr.Belin. All right.
Mr.Day. I got to reviewing this, and I got to wondering about whether I did mark those at the scene.
Mr.Belin. Your testimony now is that you did not mark any of the hulls at the scene?
Mr.Day. Those three; no, sir.
Mr.Belin. I believe you said that you examined the three shells today?
Mr.Day. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. While you were waiting to have your testimony taken here?
Mr.Day. Yes, sir; that is what confirmed my thinking on this. The envelope now was marked.
Mr.Belin. And the shells were in the same envelope that it was marked?
Mr.Day. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Now, I am going to ask you to state if you know what Commission Exhibit 543 is?
Mr.Day. That is a hull that does not have my marking on it.
Mr.Belin. Do you know whether or not this was one of the hulls that was found at the School Book Depository Building?
Mr.Day. I think it is.
Mr.Belin. What makes you think it is?
Mr.Day. It has the initials "G. D." on it, which is George Doughty, the captain that I worked under.
Mr.Belin. Was he there at the scene?
Mr.Day. No, sir; this hull came up, this hull that is not marked came up, later. I didn't send that.
Mr.Belin. Thiswas——
Mr.Day. That was retained. That is the hull that was retained by homicide division when the other two were originally sent in with the gun.
Mr.Belin. You are referring now to Commission Exhibit 543 as being the one that was retained in your possession for a while?
Mr.Day. It is the one that I did not see again.
Mr.Belin. It appears to be flattened out here. Do you know or have you any independent recollection as to whether or not it was flattened out at the small end when you saw it?
Mr.Day. No, sir; I don't.
Mr.Belin. Now, handing you what has been marked as Commission Exhibit 544, I will ask you to state if you know what this is.
Mr.Day. This is the second hull that was in the envelope when I marked the two hulls that night on November 22.
Mr.Belin. I have now marked this envelope, which was formerly a part of Commission Exhibits 543 and 544 with a separate Commission Exhibit No. 717, and I believe you testify now that Commission Exhibit 544 was the other shell that was in the envelope which has now been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 717.