I am up there in the composing room talking to a guy by the name of Pat Gadash. He was so elated that I brought him this twist board, and I had it sealed in a polyethylene bag, but he wanted to see how it is demonstrated, how it was worked.
It is a board that is on a pivot, a ball bearing, and it has a tendency to give you certain exercises in twisting your body. So not that I wanted to get in with the hilarity of frolicking, but he asked me to show him, and the other men gathered around.
When you get into the movement of a ball bearing disk, your body is free to move. I know you look like you are having a gay time, because naturally if your body is so free of moving, it is going to look that way.
I am stating this in that even with my emotional feeling for our beloved President, even to demonstrate the twist board, I did it because someone asked me to.
You follow me, gentlemen, as I describe it?
Chief JusticeWarren. Yes; I do.
Mr.Ruby. Then we placed the ad in, and if I recall, I requested from Pat to put a black border around to show that the ad was in mourning, or something, because we were, everything was in mourning.
Bill, will you do that for me that you asked a minute ago? You said you wanted to leave the room.
Mr.Decker. I will have everyone leave the room, including myself, if you want to talk about it. You name it, and out we will go.
Mr.Ruby. All right.
Mr.Decker. You want all of us outside?
Mr.Ruby. Yes.
Mr.Decker. I will leave Tonahill and Moore. I am not going to have Joe leave.
Mr.Ruby. If you are not going to have Joeleave——
Mr.Decker. Moore, his body is responsible to you. His body is responsible to you.
Mr.Ruby. Bill, I am not accomplishing anything if they are here, and Joe Tonahill is here. You asked me anybody I wanted out.
Mr.Decker. Jack, this is your attorney. That is your lawyer.
Mr.Ruby. He is not my lawyer.
(Sheriff Decker and law enforcement officers left room.)
Gentleman, if you want to hear any further testimony, you will have to get me to Washington soon, because it has something to do with you, Chief Warren.
Do I sound sober enough to tell you this?
Chief JusticeWarren. Yes; go right ahead.
Mr.Ruby. I want to tell the truth, and I can't tell it here. I can't tell it here. Does that make sense to you?
Chief JusticeWarren. Well, let's not talk about sense. But I really can't see why you can't tell this Commission.
Mr.Ruby. What is your name?
Mr.Ball. Joe Ball.
Chief JusticeWarren. Mr. Joe Ball. He is an attorney from Los Angeles who has been working for me.
Mr.Ruby. Do you know Belli too?
Mr.Ball. I know of him.
Mr.Ruby. Ball was working with him. He knows Belli. You know Melvin Belli?
Mr.Ball. I am not acquainted with him.
Chief JusticeWarren. No association of any kind.
Mr.Ball. We practice in different cities.
Chief JusticeWarren. Five hundred miles away. Mr. Ball practices in Long Beach, and Mr. Belli practices in San Francisco. There is positively no connection between anybody in this room, as far as I know, with Mr. Belli. I can assure you of that.
Mr.Ruby. Where do you stand, Moore?
Mr.Moore. Well, I am assigned to the Commission, Jack.
Mr.Ruby. The President assigned you?
Mr.Moore. No; my chief did. And I am not involved in the investigation. I am more of a security officer.
Mr.Ruby. Boys, I am in a tough spot, I tell you that.
Mr.Moore. You recall when I talked to you, there were certain things I asked you not to tell me at the time, for certain reasons, that you were probably going to trial at that time, and I respected your position on that and asked you not to tell me certain things.
Mr.Ruby. But this isn't the place for me to tell what I want to tell.
Mr.Moore. The Commission is looking into the entire matter, and you are part of it, should be.
Mr.Ruby. Chief Warren, your life is in danger in this city, do you know that?
Chief JusticeWarren. No; I don't know that. If that is the thing that you don't want to talk about, you can tell me, if you wish, when this is all over, just between you and me.
Mr.Ruby. No; I would like to talk to you in private.
Chief JusticeWarren. You may do that when you finish your story. You may tell me that phase of it.
Mr.Ruby. I bet you haven't had a witness like me in your whole investigation, is that correct?
Chief JusticeWarren. There are many witnesses whose memory has not been as good as yours. I tell you that, honestly.
Mr.Ruby. My reluctance to talk—you haven't had any witness in telling the story, in finding so many problems?
Chief JusticeWarren. You have a greater problem than any witness we have had.
Mr.Ruby. I have a lot of reasons for having those problems.
Chief JusticeWarren. I know that, and we want to respect your rights, whatever they may be. And I only want to hear what you are willing to tell us, because I realize that you still have a great problem before you, and I am not trying to press you.
I came here because I thought you wanted to tell us the story, and I think the story should be told for the public, and it will eventually be made public. If you want to do that, you are entitled to do that, and if you want to have it verified as the thing can be verified by a polygraph test, you may have that, too.
I will undertake to do that for you, but at all events we must first have the story that we are going to check it against.
Mr.Ruby. When are you going back to Washington?
Chief JusticeWarren. I am going back very shortly after we finish this hearing—I am going to have some lunch.
Mr.Ruby. Can I make a statement?
Chief JusticeWarren. Yes.
Mr.Ruby. If you request me to go back to Washington with you right now, that couldn't be done, could it?
Chief JusticeWarren. No; it could not be done. It could not be done. There are a good many things involved in that, Mr. Ruby.
Mr.Ruby. What are they?
Chief JusticeWarren. Well, the public attention that it would attract, and the people who would be around. We have no place there for you to be safe when we take you out, and we are not law enforcement officers, and it isn't our responsibility to go into anything of that kind.
And certainly it couldn't be done on a moment's notice this way.
Mr.Ruby. Well, from what I read in the paper, they made certain precautions for you coming here, but you got here.
Chief JusticeWarren. There are no precautions taken at all.
Mr.Ruby. There were some remarks in the paper about some crackpots.
Chief JusticeWarren. I don't believe everything I read in the paper.
Mr.Moore. In that respect, the Chief Justice is in public life. People in public life are well aware they don't please everyone, and they get these threats.
Incidentally, if it is the part about George Senator talking about the EarlWarren Society, the Chief Justice is aware of that phase, and I am sure he would like to hear anything that you have to say if it affects the security.
Chief JusticeWarren. Before you finish the rest of your statement, may I ask you this question, and this is one of the questions we came here to ask you.
Did you know Lee Harvey Oswald prior to this shooting?
Mr.Ruby. That is why I want to take the lie detector test. Just saying no isn't sufficient.
Chief JusticeWarren. I will afford you that opportunity.
Mr.Ruby. All right.
Chief JusticeWarren. I will afford you that opportunity. You can't do both of them at one time.
Mr.Ruby. Gentlemen, my life is in danger here. Not with my guilty plea of execution.
Do I sound sober enough to you as I say this?
Chief JusticeWarren. You do. You sound entirely sober.
Mr.Ruby. From the moment I started my testimony, have I sounded as though, with the exception of becoming emotional, have I sounded as though I made sense, what I was speaking about?
Chief JusticeWarren. You have indeed. I understood everything you have said. If I haven't, it is my fault.
Mr.Ruby. Then I follow this up. I may not live tomorrow to give any further testimony. The reason why I add this to this, since you assure me that I have been speaking sense by then, I might be speaking sense by following what I have said, and the only thing I want to get out to the public, and I can't say it here, is with authenticity, with sincerity of the truth of everything and why my act was committed, but it can't be said here.
It can be said, it's got to be said amongst people of the highest authority that would give me the benefit of doubt. And following that, immediately give me the lie detector test after I do make the statement.
Chairman Warren, if you felt that your life was in danger at the moment, how would you feel? Wouldn't you be reluctant to go on speaking, even though you request me to do so?
Chief JusticeWarren. I think I might have some reluctance if I was in your position, yes; I think I would. I think I would figure it out very carefully as to whether it would endanger me or not.
If you think that anything that I am doing or anything that I am asking you is endangering you in any way, shape, or form, I want you to feel absolutely free to say that the interview is over.
Mr.Ruby. What happens then? I didn't accomplish anything.
Chief JusticeWarren. No; nothing has been accomplished.
Mr.Ruby. Well, then you won't follow up with anything further?
Chief JusticeWarren. There wouldn't be anything to follow up if you hadn't completed your statement.
Mr.Ruby. You said you have the power to do what you want to do, is that correct?
Chief JusticeWarren. Exactly.
Mr.Ruby. Without any limitations?
Chief JusticeWarren. Within the purview of the Executive order which established the Commission. We have the right to take testimony of anyone we want in this whole situation, and we have the right, if we so choose to do it, to verify that statement in any way that we wish to do it.
Mr.Ruby. But you don't have a right to take a prisoner back with you when you want to?
Chief JusticeWarren. No; we have the power to subpena witnesses to Washington if we want to do it, but we have taken the testimony of 200 or 300 people, I would imagine, here in Dallas without going to Washington.
Mr.Ruby. Yes; but those people aren't Jack Ruby.
Chief JusticeWarren. No; they weren't.
Mr.Ruby. They weren't.
Chief JusticeWarren. Now I want you to feel that we are not here to take any advantage of you, because I know that you are in a delicate position, and unless you had indicated not only through your lawyers but also through yoursister, who wrote a letter addressed either to me or to Mr. Rankin saying that you wanted to testify before the Commission, unless she had told us that, I wouldn't have bothered you.
Because I know you do have this case that is not yet finished, and I wouldn't jeopardize your position by trying to insist that you testify.
So I want you to feel that you are free to refrain from testifying any time you wish.
But I will also be frank with you and say that I don't think it would be to your advantage to tell us as much as you have and then to stop and not tell us the rest. I can't see what advantage that would give you.
Mr.Ruby. The thing is this, that with your power that you have, Chief Justice Warren, and all these gentlemen, too much time has gone by for me to give you any benefit of what I may say now.
Chief JusticeWarren. No; that isn't a fact, because until we make our findings for the Commission, and until we make our report on the case, it is not too late.
And there are other witnesses we have who are yet to be examined. So from our standpoint, it is timely. We are not handicapped at all by the lateness of your examination.
Mr.Ruby. Well, it is too tragic to talk about.
Mr.Rankin. Isn't it true that we waited until very late in our proceedings to talk to Mrs. Kennedy?
Chief JusticeWarren. Yes; I might say to you that we didn't take Mrs. Kennedy's statement until day before yesterday. Mr. Rankin and I took her testimony then.
So we are not treating you different from any other witness.
Mr.Ruby. I tell you, gentlemen, my whole family is in jeopardy. My sisters, as to their lives.
Chief JusticeWarren. Yes?
Mr.Ruby. Naturally, I am a foregone conclusion. My sisters Eva, Eileen, and Mary, I lost my sisters.
My brothers Sam, Earl, Hyman, and myself naturally—my in-laws, Harold Kaminsky, Marge Ruby, the wife of Earl, and Phyllis, the wife of Sam Ruby, they are in jeopardy of loss of their lives. Yet they have, just because they are blood related to myself—does that sound serious enough to you, Chief Justice Warren?
Chief JusticeWarren. Nothing could be more serious, if that is the fact. But your sister, I don't know whether it was your sister Eva or your othersister——
Mr.Ruby. Eileen wrote you a letter.
Chief JusticeWarren. Wrote the letter to me and told us that you would like to testify, and that is one of the reasons that we came down here.
Mr.Ruby. But unfortunately, when did you get the letter, Chief Justice Warren?
Chief JusticeWarren. It was a long time ago, I admit. I think it was, let's see, roughly between 2 and 3 months ago.
Mr.Ruby. Yes.
Chief JusticeWarren. I think it was; yes.
Mr.Ruby. At that time when you first got the letter and I was begging Joe Tonahill and the other lawyers to know the truth about me, certain things that are happening now wouldn't be happening at this particular time.
Chief JusticeWarren. Yes?
Mr.Ruby. Because then they would have known the truth about Jack Ruby and his emotional breakdown.
Chief JusticeWarren. Yes?
Mr.Ruby. Of why that Sunday morning—that thought never entered my mind prior to that Sunday morning when I took it upon myself to try to be a martyr or some screwball, you might say.
But I felt very emotional and very carried away for Mrs. Kennedy, that with all the strife she had gone through—I had been following it pretty well—that someone owed it to our beloved President that she shouldn't be expected to come back to face trial of this heinous crime.
And I have never had the chance to tell that, to back it up, to prove it.
Consequently, right at this moment I am being victimized as a part of a plot in the world's worst tragedy and crime at this moment.
Months back had I been given a chance—I take that back. Sometime back a police officer of the Dallas Police Department wanted to know how I got into the building. And I don't know whether I requested a lie detector test or not, but my attorney wasn't available.
When you are a defendant in the case, you say "speak to your attorney," you know. But that was a different time. It was after the trial, whenever it happened.
At this moment, Lee Harvey Oswald isn't guilty of committing the crime of assassinating President Kennedy. Jack Ruby is.
How can I fight that, Chief Justice Warren?
Chief JusticeWarren. Well now, I want to say, Mr. Ruby, that as far as this Commission is concerned, there is no implication of that in what we are doing.
Mr.Ruby. All right, there is a certain organizationhere——
Chief JusticeWarren. That I can assure you.
Mr.Ruby. There is an organization here, Chief Justice Warren, if it takes my life at this moment to say it, and Bill Decker said be a man and say it, there is a John Birch Society right now in activity, and Edwin Walker is one of the top men of this organization—take it for what it is worth, Chief Justice Warren.
Unfortunately for me, for me giving the people the opportunity to get in power, because of the act I committed, has put a lot of people in jeopardy with their lives.
Don't register with you, does it?
Chief JusticeWarren. No; I don't understand that.
Mr.Ruby. Would you rather I just delete what I said and just pretend that nothing is going on?
Chief JusticeWarren. I would not indeed. I am only interested in what you want to tell this Commission. That is all I am interested in.
Mr.Ruby. Well, I said my life, I won't be living long now. I know that. My family's lives will be gone. When I left my apartment thatmorning——
Chief JusticeWarren. What morning?
Mr.Ruby. Sunday morning.
Chief JusticeWarren. Sunday morning.
Mr.Ruby. Let's go back. Saturday I watched Rabbi Seligman. Any of you watch it that Saturday morning?
Chief JusticeWarren. No; I didn't happen to hear it.
Mr.Ruby. He went ahead and eulogized that here is a man that fought in every battle, went to every country, and had to come back to his own country to be shot in the back [starts crying].
I must be a great actor, I tell you that.
Chief JusticeWarren. No.
Mr.Ruby. That created a tremendous emotional feeling for me, the way he said that. Prior to all the other times, I was carried away.
Then that Saturday night, I didn't do anything but visit a little club over here and had a Coca-Cola, because I was sort of depressed. A fellow that owns the Pago Club, Bob Norton, and he knew something was wrong with me in the certain mood I was in.
And I went home and that weekend, the Sunday morning, and saw a letter to Caroline, two columns about a 16-inch area. Someone had written a letter to Caroline. The most heartbreaking letter. I don't remember the contents. Do you remember that?
Mr.Moore. I think I saw it.
Mr.Ruby. Yes; and alongside that letter on the same sheet of paper was a small comment in the newspaper that, I don't know how it was stated, that Mrs. Kennedy may have to come back for the trial of Lee Harvey Oswald.
That caused me to go like I did; that caused me to go like I did.
I don't know, Chief Justice, but I got so carried away. And I remember prior to that thought, there has never been another thought in my mind; I was never malicious toward this person. No one else requested me to do anything.
I never spoke to anyone about attempting to do anything. No subversiveorganization gave me any idea. No underworld person made any effort to contact me. It all happened that Sunday morning.
The last thing I read was that Mrs. Kennedy may have to come back to Dallas for trial for Lee Harvey Oswald, and I don't know what bug got ahold of me. I don't know what it is, but I am going to tell the truth word for word.
I am taking a pill called Preludin. It is a harmless pill, and it is very easy to get in the drugstore. It isn't a highly prescribed pill. I use it for dieting.
I don't partake of that much food. I think that was a stimulus to give me an emotional feeling that suddenly I felt, which was so stupid, that I wanted to show my love for our faith, being of the Jewish faith, and I never used the term and I don't want to go into that—suddenly the feeling, the emotional feeling came within me that someone owed this debt to our beloved President to save her the ordeal of coming back. I don't know why that came through my mind.
And I drove past Main Street, past the County Building, and there was a crowd already gathered there. And I guess I thought I knew he was going to be moved at 10 o'clock, I don't know. I listened to the radio; and I passed a crowd and it looked—I am repeating myself—and I took it for granted he had already been moved.
And I parked my car in the lot across from the Western Union. Prior to that, I got a call from a little girl—she wanted some money—that worked for me, and I said, "Can't you wait till payday?" And she said, "Jack, you are going to be closed."
So my purpose was to go to the Western Union—my double purpose—but the thought of doing, committing the act wasn't until I left my apartment.
Sending the wire was when I had the phone call—or the money order.
I drove down Main Street—there was a little incident I left out, that I started to go down a driveway, but I wanted to go by the wreaths, and I saw them and started to cry again.
Then I drove, parked the car across from the Western Union, went into the Western Union, sent the money order, whatever it was, walked the distance from the Western Union to the ramp—I didn't sneak in. I didn't linger in there.
I didn't crouch or hide behind anyone, unless the television camera can make it seem that way.
There was an officer talking—I don't know what rank he had—talking to a Sam Pease in a car parked up on the curb.
I walked down those few steps, and there was the person that—I wouldn't say I saw red—it was a feeling I had for our beloved President and Mrs. Kennedy, that he was insignificant to what my purpose was.
And when I walked down the ramp—I would say there was an 8-foot clearance—not that I wanted to be a hero, or I didn't realize that even if the officer would have observed me, the klieg lights, but I can't take that.
I did not mingle with the crowd. There was no one near me when I walked down that ramp, because if you will time the time I sent the money order, I think it was 10:17 Sunday morning.
I think the actual act was committed—I take that back—was it 11 o'clock? You should know this.
Mr.Moore. 11:21.
Mr.Ruby. No; when Oswald was shot.
Mr.Moore. I understood it to be 11:22.
Mr.Ruby. The clock stopped and said 11:21. I was watching on that thing; yes. Then it must have been 11:17, closer to 18. That is the timing when I left the Western Union to the time of the bottom of the ramp.
You wouldn't have time enough to have any conspiracy, to be self-saving, to mingle with the crowd, as it was told about me.
I realize it is a terrible thing I have done, and it was a stupid thing, but I just was carried away emotionally. Do you follow that?
Chief JusticeWarren. Yes; I do indeed, every word.
Mr.Ruby. I had the gun in my right hip pocket, and impulsively, if that is the correct word here, I saw him, and that is all I can say. And I didn't care what happened to me.
I think I used the words, "You killed my President, you rat." The next thing, I was down on the floor.
I said, "I am Jack Ruby. You all know me."
I never used anything malicious, nothing like s.o.b. I never said that I wanted to get three more off, as they stated.
The only words, and I was highly emotional; to Ray Hall—he interrogated more than any other person down there—all I believe I said to him was, "I didn't want Mrs. Kennedy to come back to trial."
And I forget what else. And I used a little expression like being of the Jewish faith, I wanted to show that we love our President, even though we are not of the same faith.
And I have a friend of mine—do you mind if it is a slipshod story?
Chief JusticeWarren. No; you tell us in your own way.
Mr.Ruby. A fellow whom I sort of idolized is of the Catholic faith, and a gambler. Naturally in my business you meet people of various backgrounds.
And the thought came, we were very close, and I always thought a lot of him, and I knew that Kennedy, being Catholic, I knew how heartbroken he was, and even his picture—of this Mr. McWillie—flashed across me, because I have a great fondness for him.
All that blended into the thing that, like a screwball, the way it turned out, that I thought that I would sacrifice myself for the few moments of saving Mrs. Kennedy the discomfiture of coming back to trial.
Now all these things of my background, I should have been the last person in the world to want to be a martyr. It happens, doesn't it, Chief Warren?
I mean, for instance, I have been in the night club business, a burlesque house. It was a means of a livelihood. I knew persons of notorious backgrounds years ago in Chicago. I was with the union back in Chicago, and I left the union when I found out the notorious organization had moved in there. It was in 1940.
Then recently, I had to make so many numerous calls that I am sure you know of. Am I right? Because of trying to survive in my business.
My unfair competition had been running certain shows that we were restricted to run by regulation of the union, but they violated all the rules of the union, and I didn't violate it, and consequently I was becoming insolvent because of it.
All those calls were made with only, in relation to seeing if they can help out, with the American Guild of Variety Artists. Does that confirm a lot of things you have heard?
Every person I have called, and sometimes you may not even know a person intimately, you sort of tell them, well, you are stranded down here and you want some help—if they know of any official of the American Guild of Variety Artists to help me. Because my competitors were putting me out of business.
I even flew to New York to see Joe Glazer, and he called Bobby Faye. He was the national president. That didn't help. He called Barney Ross and Joey Adams. All these phone calls were related not in anyway involved with the underworld, because I have been away from Chicago 17 years down in Dallas.
As a matter of fact, I even called a Mr.—hold it before I say it—headed the American Federation of Labor—I can't think—in the State of Texas—Miller.
Chief JusticeWarren. I don't know.
Mr.Ruby. Is there a Deutsch I. Maylor? I called a Mr. Maylor here in Texas to see if he could help me out.
I want to set you gentlemen straight on all the telephone calls I had. This was a long time prior to what has happened. And the only association I had with those calls, the only questions that I inquired about, was if they could help me with the American Guild of Variety Artists, to see that they abolished it, because it was unfair to professional talent, abolish them from putting on their shows in Dallas. That is the only reason I made those calls. Where do we go from there?
Chief JusticeWarren. Well, I will go back to the original question that I asked you. Did you ever know Oswald?
Mr.Ruby. No; let me add—you are refreshing my mind about a few things.
Can I ask one thing? Did you all talk to Mr. McWillie? I am sure you have.
Voice. Yes.
Mr.Ruby. He always wanted me to come down to Havana, Cuba; invited me down there, and I didn't want to leave my business because I had to watch over it.
He was a key man over the Tropicana down there. That was during our good times. Was in harmony with our enemy of our present time.
Chief JusticeWarren. Yes?
Mr.Ruby. I refused. I couldn't make it. Finally he sent me tickets to come down, airplane tickets.
I made the trip down there via New Orleans, and so I stayed at the Volk's Apartments, and I was with him constantly.
And I was bored with the gambling, because I don't gamble, and there is nothing exciting unless you can speak their language, which is Spanish, I believe.
And that was the only environment. That was in August of 1959.
Any thought of ever being close to Havana, Cuba, I called him frequently because he was down there, and he was the last person to leave, if I recall, when they had to leave, when he left the casino.
As a matter of fact, on the plane, if I recall, I had an article he sent me, and I wanted to get it published because I idolized McWillie. He is a pretty nice boy, and I happened to be idolizing him.
When the plane left Havana and landed in the United States, some schoolteacher remarked that the United States is not treating Castro right. When they landed in the United States, this Mr. Louis McWillie slugged this guy for making that comment.
So I want you to know, as far as him having any subversive thoughts, and I wanted Tony to put it in the paper here. That is how much I thought of Mr. McWillie. And that is my only association.
The only other association with him was, there was a gentleman here that sells guns. He has a hardware store on Singleton Avenue.
Have I told this to you gentlemen? It is Ray's Hardware. His name is Ray Brantley.
This was—I don't recall when he called me, but he was a little worried of the new regime coming in, and evidently he wanted some protection.
He called me or sent me a letter that I should call Ray Brantley. He wanted some four little Cobra guns—big shipment.
So me, I should say myself rather, feeling no harm, I didn't realize, because he wasn't sending them to me, and I thought there was no crime, the man wanted protection, he is earning a livelihood.
I called Ray Brantley and I said, "Ray, McWillie called me." I don't remember if he sent me a letter or he called. He said he wants four little Cobras, or something like that.
He said "I know Mac. I have been doing business with him for a long time." Meaning with reference to when he was living in Texas. He did a lot of hunting and things like that.
Chief JusticeWarren. Yes?
Mr.Ruby. That was the only relationship I had of any mention, outside of phone calls, to Mr. McWillie, or any person from Havana, Cuba.
Chief JusticeWarren. When was that?
Mr.Ruby. Now the guns—am I correct? Did you ever go to check on it? On Ray Brantley?
Mr.Moore. No.
Mr.Ruby. He denies I ever called. Evidently he feels, maybe he feels it would be illegal to send guns out of the country. I don't know if you gentlemen know the law. I don't know the law.
Chief JusticeWarren. I don't know.
Mr.Ruby. I kept—did I tell you this, Joe, about this?
Mr.Tonahill. Yes; you did.
Mr.Ruby. That I wanted someone to go to Ray Brantley?
Mr.Tonahill. Yes.
Mr.Ruby. When Phil Burleson came back with a letter signed, an affidavitthat Ray Brantley said he never did receive a call from me, and the only gun he sent to McWillie was to the Vegas, but it came back that they didn't pick it up because it was a c.o.d. order.
This definitely would do me more harm, because if I tell my story that I called Ray Brantley, and he denies that he ever got a call from me, definitely that makes it look like I am hiding something.
Haven't I felt that right along, Joe?
Mr.Tonahill. You sure have, Jack.
Mr.Ruby. Now, the reason I am telling you these things, I never knew Lee Harvey Oswald. The first time I ever have seen him was the time in the assembly room when they brought him out, when he had some sort of a shiner on his eye.
Chief JusticeWarren. When was that little incident about the Cobras? About what year? That is all I am interested in.
Mr.Ruby. Could have been prior to the early part of 1959.
Chief JusticeWarren. Yes; all right.
Mr.Ruby. That is the only call I made. And as a matter of fact, I didn't even follow up to inquire of this Mr. Brantley, whether he received it or what the recourse was. That is why I tell you, Chief Justice Warren—who is this new gentleman, may I ask?
Mr.Rankin. This is Mr. Storey from your community, a lawyer who is working with the attorney general, and Mr. Jaworski, in connection with watching the work of the Commission so that they will be satisfied as to the quality of the work done insofar as the State of Texas is concerned.
(Pause for reporter to change paper, and Ruby asked about one of the gentlemen, to which Chief Justice Warren replied as follows):
Chief JusticeWarren(referring to Mr. Specter). He has been working with us on the Commission since very close to the beginning now.
Mr.Rankin. How long did you spend in Cuba on this trip?
Mr.Ruby. Eight days. A lot of your tourists were there. As a matter of fact, a lot of group tourists were going down, students of schools.
I mean, he had a way of purchasing tickets from Havana that I think he purchased them at a lesser price. He bought them from the travel agent in the Capri Hotel.
He bought them—did you meet McWillie?
Mr.Moore. I didn't.
Mr.Rankin. He was checked by the Commission in connection with this work.
Chief JusticeWarren. There was some story in one of the papers that you had been interested in shipping jeeps down to Cuba. Was there anything to that at all?
Mr.Ruby. No; but this was the earlier part, when the first time Castro had ever invaded Cuba. There was even a Government article that they would need jeeps. I don't recall what it was, but I never had the facilities or the capabilities of knowing where to get jeeps.
But probably in conversation with other persons—you see, it is a new land, and they have to have a lot of things. As a matter of fact, the U.S. Government was wanting persons to help them at that particular time when they threw out the dictator, Batista.
And one particular time there was a gentleman that smuggled guns to Castro. I think I told you that, Mr. Moore; I don't remember.
Mr.Moore. I don't recall that.
Mr.Ruby. I think his name was Longley out of Bay—something—Texas, on the Bayshore. And somehow he was, I read the article about him, that he was given a jail term for smuggling guns to Castro. This is the early part of their revolution.
Chief JusticeWarren. Before the Batista government fell?
Mr.Ruby. Yes; I think he had a boat, and he lived somewhere in Bay something, Bayshore, in the center part of Texas. Do you know him, Mr. Storey? Do you know this man?
Mr.Storey. No; I don't know him.
Mr.Ruby. How can I prove my authenticity of what I have stated here today?
Chief JusticeWarren. Well, you have testified under oath, and I don't even know that there is anything to disprove what you have said.
Mr.Ruby. No; because I will say this. You don't know if there is anything to disprove, but at this moment, there is a certain organization in this area that has been indoctrinated, that I am the one that was in the plot to assassinate our President.
Mr.Rankin. Would you tell us what that is?
Mr.Ruby. The John Birch Society.
Mr.Rankin. Can you tell us what basis you have for that, Mr. Ruby?
Mr.Ruby. Just a feeling of it. Mr. Warren, you don't recall when I—Friday night after leaving the Times Herald, I went to my apartment and very impatiently awakened George Senator. As a matter of fact, used the words, as I state, "You will have to get up, George. I want you to go with me."
And he had been in bed for a couple of hours, which was about, I imagine, about 4:30 or a quarter to 5 in the morning.
And I called the club and I asked this kid Larry if he knew how to pack a Polaroid, and he said "Yes."
And I said, "Get up." And we went down and picked up Larry. And in the meantime, I don't recall if I stopped at the post office to find out his box number of this Bernard Weissman. I think the box number was 1792, or something to that; and then there was, it came to my mind when I left the Times Herald—I am skipping back—why I had awakened George.
I recall seeing a sign on a certain billboard "Impeach Earl Warren." You have heard something about that?
Chief JusticeWarren. I read something in the paper, yes; that is all.
Mr.Ruby. And it came from New Bedford, or Massachusetts; I don't recall what the town was.
And there was a similar number to that, but I thought at the time it would be the same number of 1792, but it was 1757.
That is the reason I went down there to take the Polaroid picture of it, because of that remaining in the city at the time.
What happened to the picture, I don't know. I asked Jim Bowie or Alexander to tell you.
Mr.Rankin. Did you know Weissman before that?
Mr.Ruby. Never knew him. When I said Jim Bowie, no one says a word.
Mr.Bowie. We never have seen them.
Mr.Ruby. They were in my person.
Mr.Bowie. But no evidence came?
Mr.Ruby. No; it did not, never. As a matter of fact, I went to the post office to check on box 1792. I even inquired with the man in charge of where you purchase the boxes, and I said to him, "Who bought this box?"
And he said, "I can't give you the information. All I know is, it is a legitimate business box purchase."
And I checked the various contents of mail there.
Mr.Rankin. Did you know Officer Tippit?
Mr.Ruby. I knew there was three Tippits on the force. The only one I knew used to work for the special services, and I am certain this wasn't the Tippit, this wasn't the man.
Mr.Rankin. The man that was murdered. There was a story that you were seen sitting in your Carousel Club with Mr. Weissman, Officer Tippit, and another who has been called a rich oil man, at one time shortly before the assassination. Can you tell us anything about that?
Mr.Ruby. Who was the rich oil man?
Mr.Rankin. Can you remember? We haven't been told. We are just trying to find out anything that you know about him.
Mr.Ruby. I am the one that made such a big issue of Bernard Weissman's ad. Maybe you do things to cover up, if you are capable of doing it.
As a matter of fact, Saturday afternoon we went over to the Turf Bar lounge, and it was a whole hullabaloo, and I showed the pictures "Impeach Earl Warren" to Bellocchio, and he saw the pictures and got very emotional.
And Bellocchio said, "Why did the newspaper take this ad of Weissman?"
And Bellocchio said, "I have got to leave Dallas."
And suddenly after making that statement, I realized it is his incapability, and suddenly you do things impulsively, and suddenly you realize if you love the city, you stay here and you make the best of it. And there were witnesses.
I said, "The city was good enough for you all before this. Now you feel that way about it." And that was Bellocchio.
As far as Tippit, it is not Tippitts, it is not Tippitts it is Tippit.
Mr.Rankin. This Weissman and the rich oil man, did you ever have a conversation with them?
Mr.Ruby. There was only a few. Bill Rudman from the YMCA, and I haven't seen him in years.
And there is a Bill Howard, but he is not a rich oil man. He owns the Stork Club now. He used to dabble in oil.
Chief JusticeWarren. This story was given by a lawyer by the name of Mark Lane, who is representing Mrs. Marguerite Oswald, the mother of Lee Harvey Oswald, and it was in the paper, so we subpenaed him, and he testified that someone had given him information to the effect that a week or two before President Kennedy was assassinated, that in your Carousel Club you and Weissman and Tippit, Officer Tippit, the one who was killed, and a rich oil man had an interview or conversation for an hour or two.
And we asked him who it was that told him, and he said that it was confidential and he couldn't tell at the moment, but that he would find out for us if whether he could be released or not from his confidential relationship.
He has never done it, and we have written him several letters asking him to disclose the name of that person, and he has never complied.
Mr.Ruby. Isn't that foolish? If a man is patriotic enough in the first place, who am I to be concerned if he wasn't an informer.
I am incarcerated, nothing to be worried about anyone hurting me.
Chief JusticeWarren. Mr. Ruby, I am not questioning your story at all. I wanted you to know the background of this thing, and to know that it was with us only hearsay. But I did feel that our record should show that we would ask you the question and that you would answer it, and you have answered it.
Mr.Ruby. How many days prior to the assassination was that?
Chief JusticeWarren. My recollection is that it was a week or two. Is that correct?
Mr.Ruby. Did anyone have any knowledge that their beloved President was going to visit here prior to that time, or what is the definite time that they knew he was coming to Dallas?
Chief JusticeWarren. Well, I don't know just what those dates are.
Mr.Ruby. I see.
Chief JusticeWarren. I just don't know. Well, we wanted to ask you that question, because this man had so testified, and we have been trying ever since to get him to give the source of his information, but he will not do it, so we will leave that matter as it is.
Mr.Ruby. No; I am as innocent regarding any conspiracy as any of you gentlemen in the room, and I don't want anything to be run over lightly. I want you to dig into it with any biting, any question that might embarrass me, or anything that might bring up my background, which isn't so terribly spotted—I have never been a criminal—I have never been in jail—I know when you live in the city of Chicago and you are in the livelihood of selling tickets to sporting events, your lucrative patrons are some of these people, but you don't mean anything to those people. You may know them as you get acquainted with them at the sporting events or the ball park.
Chief JusticeWarren. The prizefights?
Mr.Ruby. The prizefights. If that was your means of livelihood, yet you don't have no other affiliation with them, so when I say I know them, or what I have read from stories of personalities that are notorious, that is the extent of my involvement in any criminal activity.
I have never been a bookmaker. I have never stolen for a living. I am not a gangster. I have never used a goon squad for union activities.
All I was was a representative to sound out applications for the AmericanFederation of Labor, and if the employees would sign it, we would accept them as members.
I never knew what a goon looked like in Chicago, with the exception when I went to the service.
I never belonged to any subversive organization. I don't know any subversive people that are against my beloved country.
Mr.Rankin. You have never been connected with the Communist Party?
Mr.Ruby. Never have. All I have ever done in my life—I had a very rough start in life, but anything I have done, I at least try to do it in good taste, whatever I have been active in.
Mr.Rankin. There was a story that you had a gun with you during the showup that you described in the large room there.
Mr.Ruby. I will be honest with you. I lied about it. It isn't so. I didn't have a gun. But in order to make my defense more accurate, to save your life, that is the reason that statement was made.
Mr.Rankin. It would be quite helpful to the Commission if you could—in the first place, I want to get the trip to Cuba. Was that in 1959?
Mr.Ruby. Yes; because I had to buy a $2 ticket, a pass to get through Florida.
Mr.Rankin. Did you have any other trip to Cuba?
Mr.Ruby. Never; that is the only one that I made.
I stayed at the Volk's Apartments with Mr. McWillie, lived in his apartment. Ate directly in a place called Wolf's, downstairs. Wouldn't know how to speak their language. I wouldn't know how to communicate with them.
I probably had two dates from meeting some young ladies I got to dancing with, because my dinners were served in the Tropicana.
One thing I forgot to tell you—you are bringing my mind back to a few things—the owners, the greatest that have been expelled from Cuba, are the Fox brothers. They own the Tropicana.
Mr.Rankin. Who are the Fox brothers?
Mr.Ruby. Martin Fox and I can't think of the other name.
Mr.Rankin. Do you know where they are located now?
Mr.Ruby. They are in Miami, Fla. They know everything about McWillie, I heard; and know the officials.
I met McWillie because he came to the club, and he came to the club to look over the show. And you get to talk to people and meet a lot of different types of people.
The Fox brothers came to Dallas—I don't know which one it was—to collect a debt that some man owed the Cotton Gin Co. here.
Do you know their name, Mr. Bowie?
Mr.Bowie. Murray, or something.
Mr.Ruby. He gave some bad checks on a gambling debt, and they came to visit me. The lawyer, I think, is Mark Lane. That is the attorney that was killed in New York?
Chief JusticeWarren. That is the fellow who represents, or did represent Mrs. Marguerite Oswald. I think I read in the paper where he no longer represents her.
Mr.Rankin. He is still alive though.
Chief JusticeWarren. Oh, yes.
Mr.Ruby. There was one Lane that was killed in a taxicab. I thought he was an attorney in Dallas.
Chief JusticeWarren. That was a Dave Lane.
Mr.Ruby. There is a very prominent attorney in Dallas, McCord. McCord represents the Fox brothers here. They called me because the Fox brothers wanted to see me, and I came down to the hotel.
And Mrs. McWillie—Mr. McWillie was married to her at that time—and if I recall, I didn't show them off to the airport at that time.
This is when they were still living in Havana, the Fox brothers. We had dinner at—how do you pronounce that restaurant at Love Field? Luau? That serves this Chinese food.
Dave McCord, I was in his presence, and I was invited out to dinner, and there was an attorney by the name of Leon. Is he associated with McCord?
And there was a McClain.
Chief JusticeWarren. Alfred was killed in a taxi in New York.
Mr.Ruby. He was at this dinner meeting I had with McCord. I don't know if Mrs. McWillie was along. And one of the Fox brothers, because they had just been awarded the case that this person owns, this Gin Co., that was compelled to pay off.
Mr.Rankin. I think, Mr. Ruby, it would be quite helpful to the Commission if you could tell, as you recall it, just what you said to Mr. Sorrels and the others after the shooting of Lee Harvey Oswald. Can you recall that?
Mr.Ruby. The only one I recall Mr. Sorrels in, there were some incorrect statements made at this time.
Mr.Rankin. Can you tell us what you said?
CongressmanFord. First, tell us when this took place.
Mr.Rankin. How soon after the shooting occurred?
Mr.Ruby. Well, Ray Hall was the first one that interrogated me. Wanted to know my whole background.
Mr.Rankin. Can you tell us how soon it was? Within a few minutes after the shooting?
Mr.Ruby. No; I waited in a little room there somewhere upstairs in—I don't know what floor it was. I don't recall.
Mr.Rankin. Where did this occur, on the third floor?
Mr.Ruby. One of those floors. I don't know whether it was the third or second. If you are up on anelevator——
Mr.Rankin. Can you give us any idea of the time after the shooting?
Mr.Ruby. I spent an hour with Mr. Hall, Ray Hall. And I was very much, I was very much broken up emotionally, and I constantly repeated that I didn't want Mrs. Kennedy to come back to trial, and those were my words, constantly repeated to Mr. Hall.
And I heard there was a statement made—now I am skipping—and then I gave Mr. Hall my complete background about things he wanted to know, my earlier background going back from the years, and I guess there was nothing else to say to Hall because as long as I stated why I did it—it is not like planning a crime and you are confessing something. I already confessed, and all it took is one sentence why I did it.
Now what else could I have said that you think I could have said? Refresh my memory a little bit.
Mr.Rankin. There was a conversation with Mr. Sorrels in which you told him about the matter. Do you remember that?
Mr.Ruby. The only thing I ever recall I said to Mr. Ray Hall and Sorrels was, I said, "Being of Jewish faith, I wanted to show my love for my President and his lovely wife."
After I said whatever I said, then a statement came out that someone introduced Mr. Sorrels to me and I said, "What are you, a newsman?" Or something to that effect. Which is really—what I am trying to say is, the way it sounded is like I was looking for publicity and inquiring if you are a newsman, I wanted to see you.
But I am certain—I don't recall definitely, but I know in my right mind, because I know my motive for doing it, and certainly to gain publicity to take a chance of being mortally wounded, as I said before, and who else could have timed it so perfectly by seconds.
If it were timed that way, then someone in the police department is guilty of giving the information as to when Lee Harvey Oswald was coming down.
I never made a statement. I never inquired from the television man what time is Lee Harvey Oswald coming down. Because really, a man in his right mind would never ask that question. I never made the statement "I wanted to get three more off. Someone had to do it. You wouldn't do it." I never made those statements.
I never called the man by any obscene name, because as I stated earlier, there was no malice in me. He was insignificant, to my feelings for my love for Mrs. Kennedy and our beloved President. He was nothing comparable to them, so I can't explain it.
I never used any words—as a matter of fact, there were questions at the hearing with Roy Pryor and a few others—I may have used one word "a littleweasel" or something, but I didn't use it. I don't remember, because Roy said it. If he said I did, I may have said it.
I never made the statement to anyone that I intended to get him. I never used the obscene words that were stated.
Anything I said was with emotional feeling of I didn't want Mrs. Kennedy to come back to trial.
RepresentativeFord. It has been alleged that you went out to Parkland Hospital.
Mr.Ruby. No; I didn't go there. They tried to ask me. My sisters asked me. Some people told my sister that you were there. I am of sound mind. I never went there. Everything that transpired during the tragedy, I was at the Morning News Building.
CongressmanFord. You didn't go out there subsequent to the assassination?
Mr.Ruby. No; in other words, like somebody is trying to make me something of a martyr in that case. No; I never did.
Does this conflict with my story and yours in great length?
Mr.Moore. Substantially the same, Jack, as well as I remember.
Mr.Rankin. Did you say anything about people of your religion have guts, or something like that?
Mr.Ruby. I said it. I never said it up there. I said, I could have said, "Weren't you afraid of getting your head blown off?" I said, "Well, to be truthful, I have a little nerve." I could have said that.
Now I could have said to the doctor that was sent to me, Bromberg, because there is a certain familiarity you have, because it is like you have an attorney representing you, it is there. I mean, it is there.
But I did say this. McWillie made a statement about me, something to the effect that "he is considered a pretty rough guy," this McWillie. He said, "One thing about Jack Ruby, he runs this club and no one runs over him."
And you have a different type of entertainment here than any other part of the country, our type of entertainment.
But I don't recall that. I could have said the sentimental feeling that I may have used.
RepresentativeFord. When you flew to Cuba, where did you go from Dallas en route? What was the step-by-step process by which you arrived at Havana?
Mr.Ruby. I think I told Mr. Moore I stopped in New Orleans. Sometime I stopped in New Orleans, and I don't remember if I stopped in Florida or New Orleans, but I know I did stop in New Orleans, because I bought some Carioca rum coming back.
I know I was to Miami on a stopover. It could have been on the way back. I only went to Cuba once, so naturally, when I bought the Carioca rum, there was a couple of fellows that sell tickets for Delta Airlines, and they know me like I know you, and I am sure you gentlemen have spoken to them, and they were to tell me where to go in Havana, and have a ball, and I told them why I was going there, and who I was going to look up, and everything else.
RepresentativeFord. They were Delta Airlines employees in New Orleans or Dallas?
Mr.Ruby. No; in New Orleans. Evidently I went out to the Delta Airlines at Love Field and caught the plane. I may have taken the flight—here is what could have happened. I could have made a double stop from Havana on the way back in taking in Miami, and then taking another plane to New Orleans, I am not certain.
But I only made one trip to Havana. Yet I know I was in Miami, Fla. and I was in New Orleans.
And the next time I went to New Orleans, when I tried to look up some showgirl by the name of Jada, I stopped in to see the same fellows at Delta Airlines.
Mr.Rankin. Do you recall going up the elevator after the shooting of Oswald?
Mr.Ruby. That is so small to remember, I guess it is automatic, you know.
Mr.Rankin. Did you have this gun a long while that you did the shooting with?
Mr.Ruby. Yes.
Mr.Rankin. You didn't carry it all the time?
Mr.Ruby. I did. I had it in a little bag with money constantly. I carry my money.
Chief JusticeWarren. Congressman, do you have anything further?
Mr.Ruby. You can get more out of me. Let's not break up too soon.
RepresentativeFord. When you got to Havana, who met you in Havana?
Mr.Ruby. McWillie. Now here is what happened. One of the Fox brothers came to visit me in Dallas with his wife. They came to the Vegas Club with Mrs. McWillie, and we had taken some pictures. 8 x 10's.
Evidently the Foxes were in exile at that time, because when I went to visit McWillie, when he sent me the plane tickets, they looked through my luggage and they saw a photograph of Mr. Fox and his wife. They didn't interrogate, but they went through everything and held me up for hours.
RepresentativeFord. Castro employees?
Mr.Ruby. Yes; because evidently, in my ignorance, I didn't realize I was bringing a picture that they knew was a bitter enemy. At that time they knew that the Fox brothers weren't going to jail, or something was going to happen.
Whether it was they were in exile at that time. I don't know.
But they came to my club, the Vegas Club, and we had taken pictures.
Mr. McWillie was waiting for me, and he saw me go through the customs line for a couple of hours, and he said, "Jack, they never did this to anyone before." Evidently, they had me pretty well lined up as to where I come in the picture of Mr. Rivera Fox. I can't think of his name.
RepresentativeFord. You spent 8 days there in Havana?
Mr.Ruby. Yes; approximately.
RepresentativeFord. And you stayed at the apartment ofMr.——
Mr.Ruby. Volk's Apartments. I never used the phone. I wouldn't know how to use the phone. Probably to call back to Dallas. And the only time, Mr. McWillie had to be at the club early, so I remained a little later in town—not often—because I saved money when I rode with him, because they charge you quite a bit. But I didn't want to get there too early, because to get there at 7 o'clock wasn't very lively.
Because I would always be with him for the complete evening.
We leave the place and stop somewhere to get coffee, a little dugout—I saw Ava Gardner down there at the time when I was there. She was visiting there.
RepresentativeFord. What prompted you to leave at the end of 8 days?
Mr.Ruby. I was bored because gambling isn't my profession, and when you have a business to run, and there weren't many tourists I could get acquainted with there.
I went to the Capri rooftop to go swimming, and went to the Nacional to go swimming once.
RepresentativeFord. Did you ever go to Mexico? Have you ever been to Mexico?
Mr.Ruby. The only time, 30 or 40 years ago, 1934.
RepresentativeFord. This trip to Cuba was the only time you left the country other than military service?
Mr.Ruby. Actually I didn't leave in the military. I was stationed three and a half years here in the States. Let's see, never out of the United States except at one time to Havana, Cuba.