Mr.Wade. But you had lots of things of that kind. And I thought you needed some type of, somebody—and your whole thing was wrong with this whole deal, you had no one in charge of the thing. You had the police, the FBI, the Secret Service, the Department of Justice, my Department, Waggoner Carr's department, but no one had any say to offer the rest of them.
Mr.Rankin. Tell us how that affected it. You had the jurisdiction of the crime itself.
Mr.Wade. Of the trial of the case.
Mr.Rankin. And the police department, what jurisdiction did they have?
Mr.Wade. They had the jurisdiction, the primary responsibility for the investigation of the assassination, and—they had the primary job of finding out who did it and getting the evidence. They were assisted, the Secret Service, of course, had the job of protecting the President. The FBI, they have criminal, pretty general, investigation, I am not sure, but they were in on it, they were all there, and assisting. It was a deal where nobody had any actual control over another person.
Mr.Rankin. Had the State authorities any jurisdiction or effect on the operation?
Mr.Wade. You mean the State?
Mr.Rankin. Of Texas.
Mr.Wade. They actually had none. They had no authority. The Governor has no authority in a situation like this nor the attorney general other than in a vague sort of way, as the police, I guess they had the police powers to some extent of maintaining order but you didn't need the National Guard or anything. I mean this was more dealing with a situation of information. I think this situation is true in many States, in practically all of them.
Mr.Rankin. Was that confusing, did that make it harder to try to solve the crime and handle the problems?
Mr.Wade. It did; very much so. Your press was the most confusing thing. I mean you couldn't get in the police station. I mean I just barely could get into the police station myself for stomping over the press and you had a lot of reporters, not like the reporters we usually deal with down there. I mean we don't have trouble usually with the local press, people we pretty well know.
We would tell them what is going on, and they will go on, but these people just followed everybody everywhere they went, and they were throwing policemen on the corner, if he made a statement about he saw someone running that way dressed maybe like the killer—they ran all that on. They were just running everybody. There was no control over your public media. It made itworse since all television networks were on the assassination all—24 hours, I mean all day. And there was no central thing from—there was no central person who had any control of handling the thing that information was given out. You see they interviewed some of your patrolmen who were giving out evidence, you know, some of your foot patrolmen on the corner, they were interviewing anybody.
Mr.Rankin. Would it help or hinder the handling of such a crime of the killing of the President if it was a Federal crime, in your opinion?
Mr.Wade. Well, offhand, I think probably it would,but——
Mr.Rankin. It would help?
Mr.Wade. I think it would help, but you are going to have the same situation. I am thinking if you had, if it is a Federal crime, for instance, it is still murder in Texas. If Captain Fritz and the Dallas police had arrested this man, the FBI wouldn't have had him. I don't care if it was a Federal crime. We have bank robberies where there is joint jurisdiction. The one that gets him, if it is the State police or the city police gets them, they file with me and if the FBI gets them they file with the Federal.
Mr.Rankin. You need more control over the police investigation in order to carry out your duties, isthat——
Mr.Wade. Of course; my idea if you had it to do over, it is easy to do that, but I think you need someone where all the information is channeled through one person. If anything is given out and getting an intelligent person, not just a police officer, you know. Now, your city manager of Dallas is a newspaper man, Elgin Crull, he would have been an ideal person and he was there but I don't think he ever said anything in any way. He was there in the middle of all that thing.
Mr.Rankin. Is the lawyer that you referred to in answer to Senator Cooper's questions Carroll Jarnegan?
Mr.Wade. Carroll Jarnegan is his name; yes, sir. Let me mention another thing for the record here. I don't know whether it is mentioned. Saturday, most of my day was spent in talking to Dean R. G. Storey, and the dean of the Harvard Law School, raising, wondering what the situation was with reference to attorneys for Oswald.
Mr.Rankin. What Saturday are you talking about?
Mr.Wade. Saturday the 23d, 1963; November 23. I told them that, all of them, we had calls from various people, and most of them was from people here in the East calling lawyers there in Dallas rather than me, and them calling me.
Mr.Rankin. What were they saying to you about that?
Mr.Wade. Well, they were very upset, one, in looking at American justice where the man didn't have an attorney, as apparently, and two, that too much information was being given to the press too, by the police and by me, some of them had said, and that is what prompted me probably to talk to Chief Curry about the thing, because I had received some of those calls.
I told them they ought to appoint the president of the bar association and the president of the Criminal Bar Association to represent him.
Mr.Rankin. Who did you tell that to?
Mr.Wade. Told that to Mr. Paul Carrington and also to Mr. Storey, I believe.
I believe they are the two that discussed it more at length with me.
Mr.Rankin. Do you know whether anything was done about that?
Mr.Wade. Yes.
Mr.Rankin. What?
Mr.Wade. They got ahold of Louis Nichols who is the president of the Dallas Bar Association. They got ahold of the president of the Criminal Bar Association, but they had started a Tippit fund in the meantime, and practically every lawyer was scared they were going to be appointed, you know, and they had gone and subscribed to that fund so they were having much trouble getting a lawyer appointed.
Now, I must go a little further and tell you that under Texas law that is an improper time to appoint them. The only one who can actually appoint him is the judge after indictment under the Texas law, no one else has really authority.
Louis Nichols, I talked to him, the president of the bar, and he was tryingto get some criminal lawyer to go down there with him, and I said, "Go down there yourself and talk to him because they are raising just so much cain about it and see what they want and tell him you will get him a lawyer."
SenatorCooper. You are speaking now about a lawyer for Oswald?
Mr.Wade. Yes; for Oswald.
This was around noon or some time on Saturday, noon, early afternoon. This went on all day. He called me back and said, "I have talked to him and told him I would get him a lawyer, that I would represent him or get him a lawyer." Louis Nichols is a civil lawyer, not actually a criminal lawyer.
He says, "He doesn't want but one lawyer, John Abt, in New York."
Mr.Rankin. Who is he?
Mr.Wade. He is an attorney in New York.
Mr.Rankin. You said he didn't want any attorney?
Mr.Wade. Lee Harvey Oswald told Nichols and Nichols told me this. He said that. Nichols then said he told him, along with the police they would try to get ahold of Mr. Abt, which they did. I think, I think maybe the press found him before the lawyers found him. But he says something that he didn't have time or something, as I understand it. This was all reported in the press. He had said the second person he wanted, Lee Harvey Oswald told Nichols the second person he wanted, was some lawyer out in Chicago with the American Civil Liberties Union, his name I don't know what it was, but Nichols would know.
He said, "If I can't get either one of those I will help get a local lawyer," because that was all done Saturday, with reference to his obtaining a lawyer.
I wanted to get that because I think you probably knew it and get it in the record anyhow.
Mr.Rankin. Now going back to this telephone conversation with Mr. Carr that you referred to, do you remember anything else that Mr. Carr said to you at that time?
Mr.Wade. I don't actually even remember, you know, he said that he had had a call from Washington, I don't actually remember anything about that. I remember he said that about this charge that this is going. "This would be a bad situation, if you allege it as part of a Russian, the Russian conspiracy, and it may affect your international relations, a lot of things, of the country," and I said it was silly because I don't know where the rumor started but I will see even if it was so we could prove it, I wouldn't allege it. Isn't that about it, the way you recall it, Mr. Carr?
SenatorCooper. We will call him in a minute.
Mr.Wade. O.K.
Mr.Rankin. Was he during that conversation saying anything to you about not alleging it if it were true?
Mr.Wade. No, sir; it was a question of, he had heard we were going to allege it and he asked me about it and I said it is silly. I had heard something, I think, about it, about the same time.
And to no one, if it was part of it, no one said they necessarily wanted to hush the thing up, but it was a situation where the minute they mentioned what their problem was, it sounded silly to me, I said whether he is a member of the Communist Party or not is not important in this charge.
SenatorCooper. Was there any official, anyone on your staff or any persons charged with law enforcement in Dallas, or any U.S. district attorney in Dallas or anyone connected with his office, to your knowledge ever suggest that there should be a charge of conspiracy?
Mr.Wade. None to my knowledge.
Now, I will say in some of these conversations, like I said, I don't know whether it was with Waggoner Carr or Barefoot Sanders, they said, one said, "Well, David Johnston, the J. P. has said this," and the other one has said, "Bill Alexander, one of your assistants who was up at the police department said it."
I asked them both about it and they both denied it.
SenatorCooper. Did anyone ever say to you in the event there was a charge of conspiracy who would be named other than Oswald?
Mr.Wade. No; there is no other names, there is no other name that I know of that has ever been mentioned to me as being part of the conspiracy.
The question we are talking about here, if I understand it, being that Oswald,as a part of an international conspiracy, did murder John Fitzgerald Kennedy. And there is no other names of co-conspirators, we have had lots of leads run down upon it. Somebody at the penitentiary down there, a colored person, at least the word to us, that he had told the guard he had hauled Oswald away from there, you all probably got this, but we interviewed him down there.
He was just talking and wanting to come back to Dallas. But there had been lots of things of that kind but to my knowledge none of them have actually been proven out.
Mr.Rankin. Mr. Wade, I don't think you have quite finished the—all of your—hour-by-hour description of what happened up through the killing of Mr. Oswald.
Mr.Wade. I thought I had hit it. The only thing I can't remember now is the Saturday night.
It seemed like I was down at the police station Saturday night. Why I don't know and maybe for a short while and don't recall everything that happened. That was Saturday, 23d of November, and there is nothing, the charge had already been taken, and I think probably I was on my way home and just stopped by to see what was going on.
At that time there wasn't anything going on and I went home.
Mr.Rankin. Did you do anything more about the press and TV and radio people crowding into the police station than you have already described?
Mr.Wade. No; you see—I have been in that building probably once every 2 years.
It is the other end of town from my building. I never go up there and I don't think it is my business what goes on up there. Maybe it should be, but I have never been considering it. I think I have enough problems down at my end of the street.
Mr.Rankin. In any event you didn't do anything.
Mr.Wade. I didn't tell them anything, I could see the confusion they were getting into but I don't know of anything that I told about, but what if I did, I had no control over it. It was one of those things I just figured I was the one who didn't have the say in it.
Mr.Rankin. What did you do on Sunday, the 25th?
Mr.Wade. Well, went to church.
Mr.Rankin. The 24th.
Mr.Wade. I went to church, my family and I went to Dr. W. J. Martin's nondenominational church. It has 27 different denominations, very bright fellow, if you are in Dallas you ought to go and hear him.
And as I walked out somebody said they shot Oswald. So I took—turned on the radio and took my wife and kids home, and went down to the police station.
There were still fragments of the story coming in, and we would still get every kind of story out of them, and we got down there at I guess 1:30. He died and then like I said, I think all I told the press, they asked me as I left there, a few of them what we would do on Ruby and I said we would ask the death penalty on him, and then I left and I went home and then I followed it that night and giving them what evidence I had.
Mr.Rankin. Did you have anything to do with a lawyer by the name of Tom Howard in connection with that?
Mr.Wade. No, sir; Tom Howard had filed some kind of writ of habeas corpus, assault to murder, and I never did see him. I saw Bob Stinson, another lawyer on a corner and he said he and Robey were going to represent him, which, I don't think they did, but they said they were and so I went on home, and then when he died, we had a murder case, and we took it to the grand jury the next morning, I believe, on Monday morning and indicted him, turned it into Judge Joe Brown's court and I was there, and as the grand jury walked in he said, "When are you going to hear Ruby?"
And I said, "I already have got the indictment here," and I said, then I went right back and asked the judge to transfer it over to Judge Henry King's court or Frank Wilson's court.
Mr.Rankin. Do you know what happened to that habeas corpus of Tom Howard's?
Mr.Wade. No.
Mr.Rankin. You didn't have anything to do with it?
Mr.Wade. I understand from hearsay it disappeared or somewhere down there but we don't have anything to do with writs. But they don't come through our office. You see that is directed by the judge. I heard or at least Decker or somebody told me they never could find the writ but there was some writ for assault to murder originally issued.
And then, of course, after he died and the murder charge was filed, well, that would actually be out of date.
SenatorCooper. Was it a writ of habeas corpus to bring Oswald before a court?
Mr.Wade. No. Jack Ruby.
SenatorCooper. Jack Ruby.
Mr.Wade. It was actually, they have two kinds of writs, one of them is where they set a bond on it and another one is what they have called a dry writ which says, "You file on him or bring him before me at such and such a time."
Which one it was I don't know. As a matter of fact, I thought there was a bond set on it, but I told the chief, I said, "You can hold him, we don't want to release him until you know whether the person dies or not because then he wouldn't be a bailable case," assault to murder is bailable.
I never saw the writ or anything. I just heard somebody say there is a writ on him.
(At this point, Chairman Warren entered the hearing room.)
Mr.Rankin. Did you ever help Ruby about any of his troubles of any kind?
Mr.Wade. Not that I know of.
Mr.Rankin. Prior to this occasion?
Mr.Wade. No; I think we have had him for a liquor violation or something, but if we have—like I say, I never knew him. I think that they have had some charges against him.
As a matter of fact, they had two pistol charges against him but I don't think they ever reached my office.
Mr.Rankin. Do you know what charges they were about pistols?
Mr.Wade. Carrying a concealed weapon and if I understand the record I think we checked it out and they dismissed them up in the police force.
There was one liquor case that was dismissed in my office by an assistant who is no longer there which I have read the reports on and don't have any recollection of it either way.
Mr.Rankin. Did you know Eva Grant?
Mr.Wade. No, sir.
Mr.Rankin. Ruby's sister. Do you know Sam Ruby?
Mr.Wade. I knew none of them, none of the Ruby family, and didn't know Jack Ruby. I think he claims that he had known me or something or other but if he had, it is one of those things where you see somebody and I didn't know his name or anything when I saw him that night or didn't know who he was. I thought he was a member of the press, actually.
Mr.Rankin. Did it come to your attention that there was some claim that Oswald was an agent of one of the intelligence agencies of Government?
Mr.Wade. I heard that talk down there. It was talksome——
Mr.Rankin. Do you know who was talking that?
Mr.Wade. I don't know. I have been up here once before, and some of the press were—I don't remember, some of the press mentioned that they had two voucher numbers in his book there that indicated he was working for the FBI or the CIA. I know nothing about them, don't think anybody in my office does. I think maybe Alexander mentioned it some, but Alexander is not a great lover of the FBI. They fuss all the time openly, so I don't know. I know nothing about it myself because I never have seen the book and I don't know whether they have even got any numbers in there but they were supposed to have two numbers in there as a voucher number of $200 from some Government agency but like I say, supposed to.
I never saw it and heard it, talk, but I am sure you all know more about it than I do.
Mr.Dulles. By voucher you mean an entry or something of that kind, what kind of a voucher?
Mr.Wade. I think it was called a voucher number, it was voucher 209, which doesn't make sense. I believe it was a low number. It doesn't make sense for a government to have a voucher number that low.
Mr.Rankin. What book are you referring to?
Mr.Wade. The little black book that Oswald had in his possession at the time he was arrested.
Mr.Rankin. That was his memorandum book, in which he had a list of numbers of various people and addresses and so forth, is that what you referring to?
Mr.Wade. Yes; and I never have seen the book myself. As a matter of fact, I am trying to get some photos of it, trying to but I haven't gotten them yet.
Mr.Rankin. Now what agency was it rumored he was a member of?
Mr.Wade. It was rumored he worked first for the FBI and then for the CIA.
Mr.Rankin. Is that all you have heard?
Mr.Wade. As a matter of fact, I don't think I had ever heard that until Waggoner Carr called me and told me—I don't think I ever heard that. I did check into it a little, and they were talking it some, and they have actually written it up in the newspapers by rumors or a story or two—rumors of the thing.
Mr.Rankin. Is that the report by the reporter Hudkins?
Mr.Wade. I believe it is. On the Houston paper, Hudkins. I believe we got that introduced in the Ruby trial on the change of venue motion.
Mr.Rankin. Is there anything more that you know about that matter?
Mr.Wade. I know absolutely nothing about it. I might say, I was under the impression, I think when I talked to you and the Chief Justice before, that, you see I was in the FBI, and I was under the impression and I think maybe I told you all that we didn't list our informant by name. The FBI have been kind enough to send down some of my old vouchers on paying informants back in, down in South America, and I see that we did list them by name which I—probably may, if I said otherwise it was just my recollection on the thing but in that case I was listing informants from South America that we were paying when I was there.
Mr.Rankin. There was one other report by Goulden, reporter of the Philadelphia Inquirer. Did that ever come to your attention in regard to this matter?
Mr.Wade. No; but I know him. He used to be a reporter in Dallas, but I don't know what it was, if you will tell me about it.
Mr.Rankin. Apparently it was the same thing.
Mr.Wade. Different angle.
Mr.Rankin. From Hudkins' report that had been picked up.
Mr.Wade. He is more reliable than Hudkins but I know absolutely nothing about that. Like I say, I have heard rumors and conversation and I will even put it further, I don't think Alexander knows anything about it, my assistant, although he doesn't fully admit all that. I think he would like to talk a little about it but I don't think he knows anything of his own knowledge.
Mr.Rankin. Have you inquired of him?
Mr.Wade. I have asked him about it and he gives me nothing in the way of evidence.
Mr.Rankin. Did you prepare the complaint in regard to Jack Ruby yourself?
Mr.Wade. I don't believe I did. I don't believe I had anything to do with it. If I did, my name will show on it but I don't think I had anything to do with it.
Mr.Rankin. Did you give any information to the press about what you had in regard to that prosecution, and the nature of the evidence?
Mr.Wade. No; not that I know of. Of course, they all saw it on television, you know. We have got in—to bring you through the whole story, I said practically nothing about this thing for about 3 weeks or a month, but we had a lawyer on the other side who came into town and every time he was met at the airport he would make statements.
Mr.Rankin. Who was that?
Mr.Wade. Mr. Melvin Belli, and he had his psychiatrist on the television, all his witnesses, said what he was going to prove and it got to a situation whereI had to do a little talking in self-defense, and so we did later on have some statements more or less in answer to his. It was entirely too much trying of that in the newspapers but a situation where we couldn't let his psychiatrist go on there and prove he had been insane on the jury without at least our saying we had some evidence that he was sane.
Mr.Rankin. Did you have anything to do with the preparation of the case for trial?
Mr.Wade. Yes, to some extent. You see I had four assistants to assist me in the trial.
Mr.Rankin. Who were they?
Mr.Wade. Jim Bowie, Frank Watt, and Bill Alexander. I read most of the reports on it. I mean I had most of what I did was read things on it because my main job in the trial as we started out was for me to pick the jury, which I did, I think I have some ability along that line, and do a great deal of the cross examination and the final argument. That is what I do in the cases I participate in usually.
Mr.Rankin. Yes.
Mr.Wade. Alexander spent the 2 weeks we were picking a jury in viewing the witnesses. I never talked to any of the witnesses. After the first half a day of testimony I was very disappointed in the way the witnesses were being put on the stand; if this is of interest to you.
Mr.Rankin. Tell us what happened.
MrWade. I told him, I said, on this case we are going on this theory, I want everybody who saw Ruby from the time of the assassination of President Kennedy down to the time he killed Oswald, I want to prove where he was every minute of the time that I can and then we will take it from there and put the films on there and show what happened there and then afterward. We are going on the theory that he is a glory seeker and a hero because I was convinced that was the motive of the killing.
I put on seven witnesses, and about six of them testified against us, I think, or made poor witnesses saying if they saw him down in the Dallas News where he was 2 minutes in a stare that never made any sense.
Some of them said they thought there was something wrong with him and none of them were the type of witnesses that I wanted testifying for the State.
Mr.Rankin. Who were they?
Mr.Wade. Well, you can check the first seven witnesses in the case. You had three from the Dallas News who testified, and so during that noon hour, I was convinced, whether right or wrong that Alexander had been more interested in talking to the press.
In my office our biggest problem was keeping the press out of the office, and so I just would have to bar them from my office, I mean personal property. He wouldn't do it. He liked to talk to them.
So, I said, "Get all these witnesses in during the noon hour and let me talk to them."
I put all the witnesses on the next morning. I talked to all the officers, I talked to Officers Dean, McMillon, Archer, King never had talked with them about the case before and I talked with them then and I put all of them on next morning.
Mr.Rankin. Tell us what starting with—which one did you talk to first, Archer, Dean, or McMillon.
Mr.Wade. I think I talked to all of them at first in a body. I talkedto——
Mr.Rankin. I see.
Mr.Wade. I had them all in there and said "Now what do you know about the case?" because a lot of them I didn't know what they knew.
Mr.Rankin. What did they say?
Mr.Wade. As a matter of fact, I wasn't familiar with Dean's testimony until he told me right there a day before he testified. Then he showed me the memorandum that he had made on the thing. I talked with him there and I put Archer on the next morning and McMillon on, who stayed all day. They cross-examined him from 11:30 until 5:30. Then I put King on, and then Dean, I believe the next morning, and we rested. But they told me just what they testifiedto in the trial which I don't know whether I can give all of it but I can tell you roughly that McMillon and Archer were partners and heard Ruby say some things, "I hope I killed the sonofabitch."
Mr.Rankin. When?
Mr.Wade. Within about a few seconds after the killing and then upstairs then, "I meant to shoot three times but you all got me before I did."
Incidentally, you may not know it but their psychiatrist corroborated that statement.
Mr.Rankin. Who was that?
Mr.Wade. Dr. Guttmacher on cross-examination. We asked Dr. Guttmacher, "Well, didn't Ruby tell you that he meant to shoot three times?"
He said, "Yes; and he told me that."
He said, "One time he told me that." He also said at one time he told him otherwise but he corroborated that portion of it. Then it seemed like there was something else said. Archer said to him as he got up in the jail, "I believe he is going to die, Jack." I may be getting these wrong, but they are roughly—he said something about, "You fellows couldn't do it," or talking about the police, and, I believe that was Archer and McMillon.
Maybe you all being lawyers, in Texas this is not admissible unless it is part of the res gestae. Mr. Belli sent into McMillon all conversations in the jail that happened 4 hours later.
Under our law if one side goes into a conversation we can bring out anything in the conversation, the rest of the conversation. That is a rule of law in Texas, I don't know whether it is that way everywhere else, and so that was the theory that made Dean's testimony admissible because had been in the jail—time varies from 20 minutes to an hour, depending on who you are listening to.
SenatorCooper. I have to go to a quorum call.
(At this point, Senator Cooper left the hearing room.)
Mr.Rankin. Mr. Wade, could you tell us a little more clearly what was involved in regard to this testimony? Did the defense start introducing testimony concerning these conversations, is that what you are telling us?
Mr.Wade. The defense cross-examined McMillon—you see McMillon and Archer stayed with Ruby until 4 o'clock that afternoon when he was turned over to Captain Fritz or roughly. I am giving a rough hour of 4 o'clock.
Mr.Rankin. Where did they stay with him?
Mr.Wade. In the jail. They were—I don't say both of them were there but they were assigned there and another person. The three of them or two of them were there at all times, along with your jailers, they were inside the jail.
During this time he went into conversations, for instance he said, "Didn't I tell you that he left his dog out in the car?" He said, "Yes, they did," but this is something that happened an hour and a half after they had been in jail.
Mr.Rankin. By "he" there you mean Ruby?
Mr.Wade. Ruby.
And they said also, "Didn't he tell you about going to the Western Union," and he said, "Weren't you there when Sorrels and Dean came up there, and what was the first thing that Sorrels asked him."
Mr.Rankin. Did they say when that was?
Mr.Wade. Well, you are going to find your time varies from 20 minutes to an hour, depending on whether it is a defense theory or our theory,but——
Mr.Rankin. After what?
Mr.Wade. After the killing of Oswald.
Mr.Rankin. Yes.
Mr.Wade. I think Dean, I would rather you get the record, and you can get it accurate, but I think he said it was some time before 20 minutes to 12 or some time before 12. Well, the killing happened at 11:21, I think. That seems to be the best time, 11:21.
Mr.Rankin. Did they describe what the conversation was with Ruby when Sorrels and Dean were there?
Mr.Wade. They told, if I recall, what Sorrels asked him and he asked him "What did you do it for, Jack?" or something; they knew that part of it but they weren't present during that conversation between—they were in the roombut I may say not within hearing distance. They heard part of what was said but not all of the conversation.
Mr.Rankin. By "they" who do you mean?
Mr.Wade. I am talking about McMillon and Archer.
Mr.Rankin. What did they hear?
Mr.Wade. Well, that is all I know that was testified to. Now, whether they heard anything else I don't know. But that is all I know, the beginning of the conversation.
They had heard previous to this coming up there the conversation about Jack, "I think he is going to die," and Jack answered some question, I believe he said, "You couldn't do it, somebody had to," or something like that. Jack Ruby, I am referring to.
Mr.Rankin. Where did that occur?
Mr.Wade. That occurred as they arrived on the floor where the jail is, the fifth floor, I believe, of the jail.
Mr.Rankin. Then what else could they testify to?
Mr.Wade. That was about all we used them for, actually, that was the last that we put on, but they asked them some questions of what happened. Didn't he tell Captain Fritz something at 4 o'clock that afternoon, but our testimony from them actually that amounted to anything quit when they came on to the floor there of the jail. That is McMillon and Archer.
Shortly thereafter, Dean's testimony came on and only—I am kind of anticipating your questions on this.
Mr.Rankin. Where was Dean then?
Mr.Wade. They were in the jail.Dean——
Mr.Rankin. Who else?
Mr.Wade. Sorrels, Forest Sorrels. I am not testifying as a fact but this was all told to me, of course, by Dean and Sorrels.
Mr.Rankin. Yes.
Mr.Wade. The following day during the noon hour I found for the first time that Sorrels was present in the jail. I told the sheriff there I would like to talk to Sorrels and he came down there and he and Dean and I talked in my office.
Mr.Rankin. That is the following day?
Mr.Wade. That is Thursday before we rested the case on Friday.
Mr.Rankin. Will you tell us the approximate date that you talked to him?
Mr.Wade. It seems like we started on the 17th, and this was 2weeks——
Mr.Rankin. 17th of what month?
Mr.Wade. Of February.
Maybe we started on the 10th, because they ended on the 14th, 17th to the 14th, I would say this was around the 6th of March roughly, a day or two either way.
I sat down there to talk to Dean and Sorrels because we was going to put—and Sorrels showed me a copy of his report made on that incident which I didn't keep a copy but I am sure you all have a copy of it or it will be available to you.
I read it over, and essentially from what Dean said, and him were the same with other than the, I think the only variance was the part which was strong testimony where Dean said that Ruby said, "The first time I thought of killing him was Friday night or thought about killing him was Friday night in the lineup."
Mr.Rankin. Sorrels didn't have that in his statement, did he?
Mr.Wade. He didn't have that in his statement, and I, to go back a little bit, I asked Sorrels how he got up in the jail and he said he didn't know, and he said he didn't actually know Dean there sitting in my office.
I think he finally decided Dean was the one but he didn't know him. I think it is pretty obvious that Dean, because they went in an unusual entrance to the jail from the third floor, from the chief's office, and he says there are two guards standing on each side of him which none of the others corroborate, unless they are talking about jail guards in the building, but there was no police in uniform supposed to be up on that floor but Sorrels said that he saw two police guards on each side of him.
But I asked Sorrels, I said, "How can you account for it?" I had already talked to Dean. I said, "I am getting ready to put him on the stand."
I said, "How are you going to—what are you going to say if you go on the stand on this?"
He said, "Well, I called my office in Washington and they wanted me to find out two things: One, whether there was any connection between Oswald and Ruby from Ruby, and two, whether Ruby had any confederates or co-conspirators."
He said, "Those were the two things I went to find out and I dwelled on those entirely."
He said, "These other officers were there and when I left they were still questioning," and he said, "I couldn't say whether that happened, I don't remember hearing it, I just can't say that I heard it," and so the defense lawyers talked to Sorrels that night about testifying and didn't use him.
Of course, I thought probably they were going to use him on this one thing, but there were so many other things in the statement that were the same as what Dean has testified to about, something about being a hero, Jew hero, or something in the statement, which Sorrels had that in his statement.
He had practically everything in the statement, but this is one thing that he didn't have in there, as I recall.
I couldn't find it and asked him about it and he said he couldn't say it. He said there were a lot of things in there but he was interested in knowing only two things.
Mr.Rankin. Did you examine Dean's statement in regard to this matter?
Mr.Wade. Well, I read it there that day. It is a very short one, you know. Of course, there is more than one statement.
Mr.Rankin. Yes; did you look at his prior statements at that time?
Mr.Wade. I think I had all of his statements. He was in charge of security in the basement. All statements, this all came out on cross-examination, dealt entirely with the matter of security, what was done to secure the basement.
Mr.Rankin. Did he say anything in regard to this premeditation in the prior statement?
Mr.Wade. I don't think he did, and I don't think he actually said anything about how Ruby got in in that prior statement. I may be wrong, I don't remember even going into the conversation with Ruby.
Mr.Rankin. What did Dean tell you at the time that you asked him about the later statement?
Mr.Wade. He told me that he had been asked to submit a report dealing with the security of the basement, and that that first report was the security problem.
Mr.Rankin. What did he say about that, the security?
Mr.Wade. Well, he said that, he told me, that when he heard the shot that he thought a policeman had shot him because he didn't think there was anybody else in the basement. He said he thought a policeman had shot him, just got mad and the cop shot him for killing Officer Tippit.
I don't know whether that was in the statement or not but he told me that. I actually read that, that security, we were not too interested in that because from our point of view, because there is no question the security wasn't good. Something happened somewhere.
Mr.Rankin. Did you learn from Dean how Ruby got into the basement?
Mr.Wade. I learned the way he told him he got in.
Mr.Rankin. How was that?
Mr.Wade. On walking in on Main Street, the ramp down on Main Street. And I was under the impression he told a lot of other people that. But if he had been in that basement a long time it would have helped us a lot to know it. It would have shown more premeditation, but I don't think he actually had been in long from what I know about the case.
But Ruby told Dean in his statement that he got in by going to the Western Union and walking there and the cop was helping a car go out into it. I don't know whether that is Dean, that is somebody's statement, that he went in that ramp and was there maybe a minute or two before they brought him out.
Mr.Rankin. Did Dean tell you why he left out of his prior statements the statement about premeditation or prior thinking about killing Oswald?
Mr.Wade. Well, he was cross-examined about that, and told me also thathe wasn't asked about it. That that wasn't part of what his report concerned. I mean, you have to keep in mind Dean is a uniformed officer. He is sergeant, had nothing to do with the investigation of the crime. He just happened to be the one who was sent up there to show Sorrels how to get in the jail and out, you know. He wasn't an investigative officer.
Now, McMillon and Archer are detectives, you know, but he is not. He is a uniformed man.
Mr.Rankin. What did McMillon tell you about his statement?
Mr.Wade. He just told me what his testimony was. I didn't actually talk to him over 30 minutes, I don't guess, during the noon hour and I was talking to all of them. I had the various statements he made, some of what he said was in the statements and some wasn't, so I don't remember—but the same story was where he was and what he was supposed to do and one dealt with security and the other dealt with statement that he had made. Dean and McMillon and any of them didn't think these statements were admissible while he was in the jail.
Mr.Rankin. Did McMillon make a statement about premeditation?
Mr.Wade. He had in his statement that he meant to shoot three times, which was premeditation, but I don't think he thought about it Friday night.
Mr.Rankin. What about Archer, did he have anything in his statement about Friday night in his prior statements?
Mr.Wade. No, sir; I don't think he did. He did have about the intending to shoot three times.
Mr.Rankin. When Dean was telling you about this statement about planning to shoot Oswald on Friday night, was he telling you that Ruby had told him that?
Mr.Wade. Yes.
Mr.Rankin. He didn't tell that to Sorrels?
Mr.Wade. I think he said he told it to both of them. I think that the question on that, he said when he saw the snarl on his face he first thought about killing him. Now the snarl on his face could have been Friday night or Saturday night.
Mr.Dulles. That is on Oswald's face?
Mr.Wade. On Oswald's face.
And I think that, I am not sure of this, but I think that Sorrels remembers saying something about the snarl on his face. But I think the question was whether they were talking before the time of the shooting of Oswald or whether they was talking about Friday night and it is Dean's impression that when he saw the snarl on his face is when he first thought about killing him.
I don't think he ever testified he planned to kill him or anything. I think he said that is the first time he thought about killing him.
Mr.Rankin. What I wanted to get clear for the Commission was whether Ruby was telling this in answer to questions from Dean or in answer to questions from Sorrels?
Mr.Wade. I think largely Sorrels. I think at the end Dean asked him one or two questions, mostly about how he got in, I think. I think that is what Dean was asking him about. But I think actually that this came out in the conversation while Sorrels was at least taking the lead in questioning him.
And I think, my recollection is at the end, as Sorrels got through and walked on over to the elevator, he asked him how he got in the jail or something on that score rather than on this subject.
Now, Dean is under the impression that all this came out while Sorrels was there. But I don't think Sorrels, at least, didn't have it in his notes and I don't think he would say it didn't happen but he didn't remember it, you know.
Mr.Rankin. Did you make any further investigation of this addition or change in the statements of Dean and these other people?
Mr.Wade. I don't think there is any change in the statement. I think you are asking a kind of a misleading question.
I think that first report dealt entirely with the security in the basement of the thing.
Mr.Rankin. You don't think that purported to relate what the conversation was?
Mr.Wade. Up in the jail, I don't think, you may have it there, and I may be wrong. I never questioned him any more because like I said from the time ofthe killing of Lee Harvey Oswald I thought that Friday night was the time, in my own mind, that is what I thought, he had thought about killing him. I don't say he said he would go arm himself, but in my own mind I had that feeling all along and I thought it was the first time he had thought about it, that is where I discounted all the other theories there was a connection between them because I saw him there and talked to him, and saw his excited demeanor, and so you asked me did I question him any more, he finally told me, what I actually thought were the facts and I do now incidentally.
Mr.Rankin. You have already testified that you thought it was Jack Ruby before you even knew the name.
Mr.Wade. Well, you may—I may have stressed a little saying thought. When I was driving down there they said Dallas businessman kills him, without his name.
But in my own mind I said it must have been that Jack Ruby that was down there the night before. I mean I was just talking to myself, there wasn't nobody there. But like I say, one of those things, I might be more truthful to say it ran through my mind rather than to say I thought.
Mr.Dulles. You didn't say that to your wife?
Mr.Wade. I didn't say it to a soul. I went down there alone. I took her home. We don't live four or five blocks and I drove downtown myself, and it entered my mind and I will say when they announced it I wasn't too surprised. I mean I had or thought about him as a possibility.
Mr.Rankin. Now, did you get any assistance from the FBI, Secret Service, and other agencies in the handling of these cases?
Mr.Wade. Practically none. I never have seen the Secret Service file. This Sorrels is the only one I talked with and I saw his report although I never did get a copy of it. The FBI let us examine, I believe all their files, I am not sure, but we couldn't take possession of them and we had to send somebody up there to run through them and dictate on them, and undoubtedly they helped us some in the trial.
They helped us in this way. If you had a witness on the stand—I was cross-examining and I would say, well now, you talked to the FBI and he would say yes, sir, and they really picked up when they knew they had talked to the FBI and then I would say didn't you tell them this and they would usually admit it.
Mr.Rankin. Do you know whether the files of the—of either of these agencies or both of them were made available to the police in connection with the two cases?
Mr.Wade. It is a one-way deal usually with the FBI, you know. They don't usually tell you anything about their files but I say they did show us their files on this, and whether they showed them to the police I have no idea.
I will say they turned their files to the U.S. attorney and let me send somebody up there to look at it, 4,500 pages of it.
But that was about a week before the trial, and during the picking of the jury when we were still going through them.
Mr.Rankin. Did you learn anything during your investigation of the Ruby case about the billfold and the ignition case in the car?
Mr.Wade. Of Ruby's car?
Mr.Rankin. Yes.
Mr.Wade. No.
Mr.Rankin. That didn't come to your attention?
Mr.Wade. You know they found a lot of stuff in his car and a lot of stuff on his person. I might say this—there are only two pieces of evidence found on him I wanted to introduce during the trial and until this day I never have found either one of them.
I don't know where they are. The police say they gave them to us, and I know they didn't. One was the receipt from the Western Union which we never, can't find the original of that or a copy, which I think you all have a copy of it.
The second one was he had in his possession a "Lifeline Deal on Heroism," telling about everybody had to take things into their own hands and be a hero.
We later got a copy of that because the night before the killing he gavethat to the Weird Beard up at KLIF, radio station, and told him that we had to have some heroes, that was the night before the killing.
We got a copy of what the article was but one of them, two or three copies were in his possession but I never could find one to introduce.
I never did know for sure whether to introduce it because there was a lot of good American patriotism in the thing and, of course, there is a lot of other that is complete hogwash, you know, and you don't know how a jury is going to read part of it and like it and the other part not, but the title of it was "Heroism" and he talked to the Weird Beard, this was in testimony, that somebody had to be a hero.
This was the night before the killing.
This was in before, this was before the jury, and said he gave him an article, the title of it was "Heroism," that he never did read.
Mr.Rankin. Have you supplied to the Commission all the information that you have or has come to your attention with regard to the assassination of the President?
Mr.Wade. I don't know of anything. As far as I know, I have. I never did get any information on the assassination of the President. I requested them to send it up here to begin with.
Mr.Rankin. And all you have in regard to Jack Ruby, too.
Mr.Wade. Everything I know of.
Like I said I let them take those pictures of the physical evidence last week, and there are supposed to be some things that I don't know where it is. It is not in my office, I think the police have lost them actually or at least they are up there and I don't think anybody is trying to hide anything but it is just a situation there is so much that it just got lost in the shuffle.
Mr.Rankin. So, far as you know it has all been supplied then?
Mr.Wade. As far as I know it has. I don't know—I know of nothing in my files that you don't have, and if there is you sure are entitled to have it. I am not sure about this letter you mentioned from the lawyer, the affidavit but I am pretty sure you all have that but I know I got that during the trial and stuck it in my desk somewhere and I don't even know where it is but it will be available.
Mr.Rankin. In any of these press conferences that you have described did you ever say anything about the type of rifle that was thought to be involved in the killing of the President?
Mr.Wade. I think that was one of the inaccuracies that Sunday night on the thing.
Mr.Rankin. What did you say about it?
Mr.Wade. I think I said I thought it was a Mauser or I thought—was one of those things I didn't know what it was. It was an Italian gun, I think and I really thought I was giving them Italian but Mauser is a German gun, isn't it?
But I think you have that—it was a situation, I don't contend I was right on that because it was a situation somebody asked me that and that is what I thought I was telling them and I never—all my information came from the police and actually somebody said originally it was a Mauser but it turned out it was not.
Mr.Rankin. You learned it was not.
Mr.Wade. Oh, yes; there was no question, I am not contending whatever I said was so on that because I got it all secondhand from someone else.
Mr.Rankin. Did you learn that the Mauser-type rifle was similar in the type of action to the gun that was involved. Did that ever come to your attention?
Mr.Wade. I think someone told me that but I am not an expert on guns. I don't believe I ever saw this gun except from a distance. I think that Saturday night—Friday night, the 22d when they were taking it to Washington, I saw somebody take it through homicide and give it to the FBI and from a distance, I never did examine it.
Mr.Rankin. In your testimony you were not entirely sure as to whether Chief Curry had the gun during the press conference?
Mr.Wade. No; I am not. I remember seeing some officer wave that gun around. I was tying it into Chief Curry but it could have been the day before, because that gun actually should have still been in Washington on the 23d.
Mr.Rankin. Yes.
Mr.Wade. I am deducting, I think probably that I saw someone else with the gun, rather than Chief Curry.
Mr.Rankin. Did you in any press conference describe anything about paraffin tests?
Mr.Wade. I told them they gave him paraffin tests. I believe that—I am not positive what I told them, but what I was told, they found paraffin on one hand—powder showed positive on one hand. I don't know which one, but I remember the police told me the paraffin test was positive on one hand. I don't know which hand.
Mr.Rankin. Did you indicate what that meant in terms of the effect on crime or its investigation?
Mr.Wade. Well, of course, it meant that a man had fired a gun if they find powder on his hands. I assume I have told them that. I think that was Sunday night when we were laying out the evidence, so far as I know. I don't think that was prior to his being killed. It was, it shouldn't have been done, but I think that was Friday night.
Mr.Rankin. That is all I have, Mr. Chief Justice. Mr. Dulles has a few questions.
TheChairman. Mr. Dulles, do you have some questions you would like to ask Mr. Wade?
Mr.Dulles. Mr. Chief Justice, Mr. Ford, believing I was the only one going to be here during the interrogation—during the entire session this morning—gave me a few questions and asked me to tell you he was very sorry he could not be here today, but he will be here tomorrow.
TheChairman. Yes.
Mr.Dulles. A great many of these questions have already been covered. I will just run over them briefly.
You have testified as to a telephone call that the attorney general received from Washington, what he told you about that. Did you have anything further to add to that?
Mr.Wade. No, sir; I believe we have covered that all right. I was trying to think. In the course of this thing, during all this investigation, I have talked to Cliff Carter in the White House, or at least he used to be, but I don't think we talked then on it. I think it was later, the next day, and then 2 or 3 days later, as I recall, but I believe right after they got back to Washington, I got a call from Cliff Carter wondering whether they had the person, or something, but Cliff was one of President Johnson's aides.
Mr.Dulles. Yes.
Mr.Wade. And I have talked with him later, I think, on, I don't know, I don't think it concerned any of these problems, but I am just talking out loud with you, but we have covered that fully and, I believe, the attorney general told you that he had talked to somebody in the White House about it and called me, I think that is where he told me where hehad——
Mr.Dulles. There were no other messages other than these messages that you mentioned with Cliff Carter, is that right?
Mr.Wade. Yes; I talked to him, but I don't think it concerned this problem. I think it was on a—as a matter of fact, I think it was after Ruby had shot Oswald when I talked to him, but it is one of those things I can't remember. I hope you don't think I am trying not to tell you, I don't mind telling you anything, but talking to you that I got a call every 5 minutes, and so I don't know, mostly the press calling, you know.
Mr.Dulles. Was the conduct of the investigation of the assassination hindered by any possible overlapping of jurisdiction between Federal, State, and local authorities? You have dealt with that in a general way. Do you have anything more to say on that point?
Mr.Wade. Well, I think the investigation of the assassination was carried on in a rather cooperative manner between all the agencies concerned. I think this cooperation was more than generally you would have. It was born outof a feeling that all the agencies were to some extent on the spot, I think, your FBI, your Secret Service. I think that bred cooperation rather than antagonism. I don't know of any antagonism. I think the biggest fault with the investigation was your press and television.
I don't think there is any question that you people up here deal with it. But you take a chief of police, a little chief of police, or a little district attorney down there who is not used to having all, everybody, calling you all hours of the night and asking you questions, and then if you sneeze, write a front page story about what you said, with no way to deny it, you know, and I think the press was the biggest thing that caused—I don't think they ever ought to have been in the police department to begin with. I would have liked to have kept them out of the courtroom. The judge announced that he was going to have them in the courtroom, but I was instrumental in keeping them out.
Mr.Dulles. When we were in Dallas, it was suggested to us that the press, radio, and news media kind of took possession of city hall there, and it was a question of throwing them out by force of arms or leaving them there. Do you have any comment on that?
Mr.Wade. I don't know how they got in. I don't see how they could run those big cables right through the chief of police's office there without somebody giving them permission. However, I have no way of knowing how they got in.
Mr.Dulles. It was suggested to us that the chief of police was out at the airport and did not get back, and found them in there when he got back at 3 o'clock.
Mr.Wade. How they got in I have no idea, but the whole mechanics of the thing—for instance, in the homicide office, the whole office—you probably have seen it—I don't imagine it is as big as this room. It is cut up into little offices.
Mr.Dulles. I was in there; yes.
Mr.Wade. If you know, when I went into the office, went into that office there Friday night, you had to push people back to open the door to get out. You had police having to move the crowd, and they were just stacked down that corridor, and it was a situation that should not have developed.
Of course, you have a situation where the press yell that the American people have a right to know their President had been assassinated. I don't say there are not two sides to the situation, but I think when they get to interfering with the processes of law there is bound to be a middle ground or some way to work it out. I can't solve it.
Mr.Dulles. So far as you know, have all documents of any evidence, of any kind whatsoever, collected by State and local authorities in Texas been turned over to the Federal authorities and the President's Commission?
Mr.Wade. So far as I know they have. We have either sent it to the Commission or to Mr. Waggoner Carr, and I assume whatever he gets he sends to you all. I don't know of any documents; I don't know whether—you don't have a transcript of the trial, but that will be testimony.
TheChairman. How long was the transcript, Mr. Wade?
Mr.Wade. I don't know how many pages. I don't think—we don't have our copy of it. We ordered a copy, and so—he filed a pauper's oath, so I don't have any idea how long it will be. It was about 2 weeks of testimony, an argument, and also 2 weeks of picking the jury. They took all that down, all questioning of prospective jurors, so all that will be in the transcript.
TheChairman. Will that all be in the record on appeal?
Mr.Wade. Yes, sir.
TheChairman. Have they made any extra copies, do you know?
Mr.Wade. I know they are making some extra copies that have been bought by individuals, I believe Life magazine, some of those magazines have ordered a copy.
TheChairman. I see; yes.
Mr.Wade. We are having to pay for ours. We are having to pay for ours, and, of course, we will handle that, we will use that when briefing our case on appeal.
TheChairman. Do you know what it will cost? You don't know that yet?
Mr.Wade. I think—we think—our copy will be $3,000. I mean I have got that figure in my mind, because the Commissioners' Court kicked about us havingto pay court reporters who are working for the county, but I think the court reporters wrote the law, but I have got in mind $3,000, but that is a copy. The original usually is twice that much, but of course, a copy is all you would want. But you can write Mr. Jimmy Muleady. He is the official court reporter of that court.
Mr.Dulles. You have testified with regard to the Hudkins and Goulden rumors that the FBI or CIA or some other Federal agency might have employed Oswald. One or the other of those correspondents indicated that he got his information from some high official that he refused to identify—he or they—refused to identify. Do you know anything about that?
Mr.Wade. No; Hudkins, as I recall, wrote in his article—I don't know who the high official is, but I imagine they are basing it on me or the police or someone—Hudkins put in his article, you know he wrote all this stuff, he is a wild writer, and he said, "Henry Wade said he doubted whether it would be public information" or something.
Well, he came running into me one day there and said, "Now, I have got all kinds of evidence that he is working for the FBI."