Mr.Jenner. And identified himself with the demonstration?
Mr.Weissman. Yes, sir. He said he had—what did he say—something to the effect that he had a bunch of his people down there, the University of Dallas students.
Mr.Jenner. Did he identify them as students?
Mr.Weissman. I don't recall. I met the students several weeks later when I got to Dallas.
Mr.Jenner. The students he had employed?
Mr.Weissman. That had participated in the demonstration; yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did he describe what the demonstration was insofar as his part and his group's part in it was?
(At this point, Mr. Dulles reentered the hearing room.)
Mr.Weissman. Well, just to the effect they had picketed and carried signs and made some noises inside the auditorium. Not he and his group, but that the picketers had raised quite a hullabaloo inside the auditorium.
Mr.Jenner. Were they his picketers?
Mr.Weissman. I don't know. This he didn't specify. I hadassumed——
Mr.Jenner. What impression did you get in that respect?
Mr.Weissman. I had assumed his picketers were part of it.
(At this point, Representative Ford withdrew from the hearing room.)
Mr.Jenner. You were repeating to the best of your recollection that telephone conversation.
Mr.Weissman. The gist of the conversation; yes.
Mr.Jenner. As best you are able to recall.
Mr.Weissman. That is right. I really cannot swear to its 100 percent accuracy, but I would say it is 75 percent accurate anyway.
Mr.Jenner. Have you now exhausted your recollection as to all that was said, in substance?
Mr.Weissman. In substance; yes.
Mr.Jenner. In the course of that conversation.
Mr.Weissman. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. I take it he urged you to come to Dallas?
Mr.Weissman. He did.
Mr.Jenner. That this Stevenson incident had stimulated things to the point that CUSA—you members of CUSA should come to Dallas, and everything was ripe?
Mr.Weissman. He said we can pick up the ball and start running.
Mr.Jenner. Now, you and Mr. Burley then went to Dallas, did you?
Mr.Weissman. That is right. We left on the 2d of November.
Mr.Jenner. And that would have been following the receipt of the letter of October 29, which we have identifiedas——
Mr.Weissman. Commission Exhibit No. 1032.
Mr.Jenner. How did you get there?
Mr.Weissman. I drove in my car.
Mr.Jenner. Did Mr. Burley accompany you?
Mr.Weissman. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did you stop off anywhere on the way?
Mr.Weissman. We stopped at his mother's house in South Carolina for about 4 or 5 hours.
Mr.Jenner. And when you reached Dallas, did you find a room, or what did you do?
Mr.Weissman. That night we stayed at Larrie's house. We got there about 5 o'clock in the afternoon.
Mr.Jenner. Where does he live?
Mr.Weissman. At that time he was living at the Eden Roc Apartments, in Dallas.
Mr.Jenner. Is he a married man?
Mr.Weissman. He was.
Mr.Jenner. I take it he was separated from his wife at that time?
Mr.Weissman. No, no. He has been divorced since.
Mr.Jenner. But he was living with his wife at that time?
Mr.Weissman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. By the way, is Mr. Burley a married man, also?
Mr.Weissman. I spoke with him just the other day. His divorce will be final in about 6 weeks, he thinks.
Mr.Jenner. He was married at that time?
Mr.Weissman. Yes; separated.
Mr.Jenner. Where was his wife living?
Mr.Weissman. In West Virginia, I believe.
Mr.Jenner. He had a family, did he not, several children?
Mr.Weissman. Four or five children.
Mr.Jenner. You stayed with him at the Eden Roc Apartments?
Mr.Weissman. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. That is, with Mr. Schmidt?
Mr.Weissman. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And then you and Mr. Burley arranged a room somewhere, did you?
Mr.Weissman. We rented an apartment. I think we stayed with Larrie for 2 days, 2 or 3 days. Then we rented an apartment in Dallas.
Mr.Jenner. Where was that?
Mr.Weissman. I don't recall the address offhand.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Now, approximately where are we now, as a matter of time in this period?
Mr.Weissman. Thisis——
Mr.Jenner. That you rented the apartment.
Mr.Weissman. About the middle of the first week after we arrived in Dallas.
Mr.Jenner. Which should be approximately what date?
Mr.Weissman. About the 7th or so of November.
Mr.Jenner. What did you do thereafter in the way of furthering the business of CUSA?
Mr.Weissman. Well, we were thinking of buying a fourplex, a four-family apartment house.
Mr.Jenner. Where were you going to get the money?
Mr.Weissman. We could have gotten a loan, we hoped, with no downpayment, because of the fact we are GI's, through the FHA, or VA, and we were counting on that. So we were looking around. We had also planned to take over a private club, manage a private club, with an option to buy it.
Mr.Jenner. What club was that?
Mr.Weissman. That was the Ducharme Club.
Mr.Jenner. That was in Dallas?
Mr.Weissman. In Dallas; yes.
Mr.Jenner. Where did you become acquainted with that possible business opportunity?
Mr.Weissman. Well, this had been broached by Larrie. This was one of the big disappointments. We had been promised by Larrie we wouldn't have any trouble making a living, that he had jobs and everything set up for us. That is one of the reasons I chucked my job in New York. I figured we would be able to survive down there.
We got to the Ducharme Club, after a day or two, and it was a miserable hole in the wall that you could not really do anything with. But we were still dickering with the owner on the potentials.
Mr.Dulles. What did this club purport to do?
Mr.Weissman. It was a private club. They sold liquor and beer over the bar to members.
Mr.Dulles. Entertainment?
Mr.Weissman. They had a dance floor and jukebox.
Mr.Jenner. Who—do you recall the names of any of the people interested in the Ducharme Club?
Mr.Weissman. The owners?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mr.Weissman. The only one I know of is Leon Ducharme, the owner.
Mr.Jenner. Did Jack Ruby or Jack Rubenstein have any interest in this club?
Mr.Weissman. No; not as far as I know.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever meet Jack Ruby or Jack Rubenstein?
Mr.Weissman. Never.
Mr.Jenner. Did you become acquainted with the Carousel Club when you were in Dallas?
Mr.Weissman. I was never in it, and I still don't know where it is.
Mr.Jenner. You were never in it; you don't know where it is. Did you hear of it when you were there?
Mr.Weissman. Never. As a matter of fact, in the entire 3½ weeks or so that Bill and I were in Dallas, we didn't go to the movies at all. The only two clubs that I can recall that we went into was the LavenderLounge——
Mr.Jenner. Where is that located?
Mr.Weissman. That is in Dallas.
Mr.Jenner. Where?
Mr.Weissman. I don't recall the street.
Mr.Jenner. It is downtown, is it?
Mr.Weissman. No; it is not downtown. This is—it was about two blocks from our apartment. And it is about, I guess, a good 30-minute walk to downtown from there. And the only other club would be the Ducharme Club.
Mr.Jenner. Where was that located?
Mr.Weissman. That was on Haskell Avenue, in Dallas.
Mr.Jenner. How far from the downtown area, if at all?
Mr.Weissman. Well, to make it conveniently, you should take a bus. Otherwise, about a 20-minute walk.
Mr.Jenner. From the Ducharme Club to the downtown area of Dallas?
Mr.Weissman. Yes, sir; and the reason we went to the Ducharme Club after the fact we decided we were not going to take it, was that that was a place we could get credit for beer. Larrie had a charge account there. And that was the extent of our association with that place.
Mr.Jenner.Now——
Mr.Weissman. Now, in the Lavender Lounge, the reason we went there, is we were dickering with the owners of the LavenderLounge——
Mr.Jenner. Name him.
Mr.Weissman. L. S. Brotherton. We wanted to lease a club that he had that was closed down, called the Beachcomber, in a suburb of Dallas. And we had been in there several times and had talked to him about leasing this. In other words, we were looking for something that would give us an income so we could operate a little bit. And that never worked out. He wanted too much money, and we didn't have it.
Mr.Jenner. In any of these negotiations that were carried on by you or your associates, was the name Jack Ruby ever mentioned as having any possible interest whatsoever in any of those groups?
Mr.Weissman. Never.
Mr.Jenner. Did you hear of the name Jack Ruby or Jack Rubenstein up to—at anytime prior to November 24, 1963?
Mr.Weissman. No; never.
Mr.Jenner. And do you have any information or any knowledge or any notion or feeling that Larrie Schmidt or any of your associates knew of or had any association with Jack Ruby or otherwise known as Jack Rubenstein?
Mr.Weissman. I think I can state pretty emphatically no.
Mr.Jenner. Were there any communications of any kind or character, written notes, telephone calls, or otherwise, that you know about or knew about then to or from Jack Ruby?
Mr.Weissman. Never.
Mr.Jenner. When did you first hear of the name Jack Ruby?
Mr.Weissman. I think he shot Oswald some time in the afternoon or the morning—since Bill and I had neither a radio or TV in the apartment—we were in the apartment all day.
Mr.Jenner. All day that Sunday?
Mr.Weissman. Yes; we had heard about it that night.
Mr.Jenner. That is the 24th of November 1963?
Mr.Weissman. If that is when Oswald was shot.
Mr.Jenner. And you first became aware of Oswald being shot the night or evening of the 24th?
Mr.Weissman. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. That Sunday?
Mr.Weissman. Yes. I don't recall exactly how. I think Larrie telephoned us, and told us that.
Mr.Jenner. This is the first time we have mentioned the name Oswald. Had you ever heard the name Lee Harvey Oswald prior to your going to Dallas?
Mr.Weissman. No.
Mr.Jenner. Did you hear of the name Lee Harvey Oswald at any time prior to November 22, 1963?
Mr.Weissman. No.
Mr.Jenner. Was the name ever mentioned in your presence?
Mr.Weissman. No.
Mr.Jenner. I take it from what you have said that you did not know a man by the name of Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr.Weissman. No.
Mr.Jenner. When did you first hear the name Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr.Weissman. We were sitting in a bar, right after President Kennedy's assassination.
Mr.Jenner. This was the 22d of November 1963?
Mr.Weissman. Yes; it was Bill Burley, myself, and Larrie. We had made—we were to meet Larrie and Joe Grinnan at the Ducharme Club.
Mr.Jenner. For what meal?
Mr.Weissman. For luncheon. We were supposed to meet him at 12:30 or 1 o'clock, I forget which—about 1 o'clock. And I had a 12:30 on the button, as a matter of fact—I had an appointment to sell a carpet out in the Garland section of Texas—it was a 2:30 appointment. And I was in a hurry to get to meet Larrie and finish the lunch, and whatever business they wanted to talk about I didn't know. So I looked at my watch. I remember specifically it was 12:30, because at that time Bill had been driving my car. He had quit the carpet company and was looking for another job. He had looked at a franchise arrangement for insecticides. He picked me up. He was waiting for me from 10 after 12 to 12:30. We got into the car. I am a great news bug. So I turned the radio on, looking for a news station. And they had—at that time, as I turned the radio on, the announcer said, "There has been a rumor that President Kennedy has been shot." So we didn't believe it. It was just a little too far out to believe.
And after several minutes, it began to take on some substance about thePresident's sedan speeding away, somebody hearing shots and people laying on the ground. In other words, the way the reporters were covering it. I don't recall exactly what they said. And, at this time—we were going to go to the Ducharme Club through downtown Dallas. We were heading for the area about two blocks adjacent to the Houston Street viaduct. And then we heard about the police pulling all sorts of people—somebody said they saw somebody and gave a description. And the police were pulling people off the street and so forth. So Bill and I didn't want to get involved in this. So we took a roundabout route. We got lost for a while. Anyway, we finally wound up at the other side of Dallas, and we were at the Ducharme Club.
Mr.Jenner. When you arrived there, was Mr. Schmidt there?
Mr.Weissman. He was waiting for me. But Joe Grinnan wasn't there. He had heard this thing and took off. I guess he wanted to hide or something.
Mr.Jenner. Why?
Mr.Weissman. Well, because the way it was right away, the announcers, even before it was ascertained that President Kennedy was dead, or that he had really been shot, that it was a rightwing plot and so forth. And he had every reason to be frightened.
Mr.Jenner. Why did he have every reason to be frightened?
Mr.Weissman. Because, let's face it, the public feeling would suddenly be very antirightwing, and no telling what would happen if a mob got together and discovered him. They would tear him apart.
Bill and I were frightened to the point because I knew about the ad. And I knew exactly what—at least I felt in my own mind I knew what people would believe. They would read the ad and so forth, and associate you with this thing, somehow, one way or another. So we went to another bar—I don't remember the name of it—the Ducharme Club was closed, by the way, that afternoon.
Mr.Jenner. When you reached the Ducharme Club, it was closed, but you found Mr. Schmidt there?
Mr.Weissman. Larrie was waiting on the corner. He got in the car. We sat and talked for a few minutes. We went to another bar a few blocks away. We drank beer and watched television. And we had been in the bar, I guess, about an hour when it come over that this patrolman Tippit had been shot, and they trapped some guy in a movie theater. And maybe half an hour, an hour later, it came out this fellow's name was Lee Harvey Oswald. This is the first time I ever heard the name.
Mr.Jenner. What was said at that time?
Mr.Weissman. By us?
Mr.Jenner. Yes. When it was announced it was Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr.Weissman. We were relieved.
Mr.Jenner. Anything said about it?
Mr.Weissman. I don't recall. First, what was said, like, I hope he is not a member of the Walker group—something like that—I hope he is not one of Walker's boys. Because it is like a clique, and it is guilt by association from thereafter. So it came over later this guy was a Marxist. This was the same afternoon, I believe. It was found out this fellow was a Marxist. And then the announcers—they left the rightwing for a little while, and started going to the left, and I breathed a sigh of relief. After 4 hours in the bar, Bill and I went back to the apartment, and Larrie went to the Ducharme Club. He was afraid to go home.
Mr.Jenner. I thought the Ducharme Club was closed.
Mr.Weissman. It was open at that time. We drove by. It was open. Larrie went in. We dropped him off there. And Bill and I went back to our apartment. We just waited. We knew we were going to get involved in this thing because of the ad. And we figured that if anybody at all in Dallas was on the ball, they know who we were and where we were. So we waited. Nothing happened. We waited there until we left. We barely left that house. As a matter offact——
Mr.Jenner. You remained in the house all that evening, did you—the apartment?
Mr.Weissman. I think the—yes; late that evening Larrie came home.
Mr.Dulles. That is Friday evening, November 22?
Mr.Weissman. Yes; I think Larrie went home late that evening, and Bill and I met him there.
Mr.Jenner. You went to Larrie's home?
Mr.Weissman. To Larrie's apartment; yes. And I said what are we going to do? And Larrie said, "Well"—he had talked to Joe Grinnan, and Joe said don't say anything, don't do anything, don't get any more involved than you have to, lay low, keep out of it, it is going to be pretty bad. And it was. Thereafter, a day or solater—
Mr.Jenner. What did you mean by that—it is going to be pretty bad?
Mr.Weissman. In other words—this is just exactly the way it worked out. Forexample——
Mr.Jenner. You are now explaining what you mean by "and it was"?
Mr.Weissman. Right. Stanley Marcus, who was a Dallas businessman,financier——
Mr.Jenner. Nieman Marcus?
Mr.Weissman. Of the Nieman Marcus group, yes, and he was a well-known and rather very rabid liberal. And sure enough, even though the following day it was then established that Oswald was a Marxist and so forth, and there was some question as to whether or not it was a Communist plot, pros and cons, and Marcus put his 2 cents in in the Dallas Times Herald, and he starts blaming the rightwing for the trouble. And I was told—I didn't seethis——
Mr.Jenner. This was on the 23d now?
Mr.Weissman. This was on the following day; yes, sir. And, in other words, he and friends of his, I guess, did everything they could to solidify their position as being always in the right, and throw the blame, even though Oswald is obviously a Marxist—they tried to transfer the blame to the rightwing. They had us on the run and they were going to keep it that way.
Mr.Jenner. How did this come to your attention?
Mr.Weissman. Just by reading the newspapers.
Mr.Jenner. The Dallas Times Herald and the Dallas Morning News?
Mr.Weissman. There was very little in the Morning News about the rightwing, that was antirightwing, and the Dallas Times Herald was full of it.
Mr.Jenner. Would you please delineate what you mean by "us" who were on the run?
Mr.Weissman. I mean any conservative in Dallas at that time was keeping quiet.
Mr.Jenner. Including yourself and the other men you mentioned?
Mr.Weissman. Including myself and everybody I was associated with; yes, sir. And a day or so after that, I think it was Sunday or Monday, I had suggested to Larrie, and I spoke to Joe Grinnan on the phone, that maybe I should call the FBI and give them the story on this ad.
And he said, "Now, look, if they want you, they will find you. They know where you are, probably. So if they want you, they will find you." So I waited. And several times I was going to make that phone call, and I did not. Then finally we just ran out of money.
Mr.Jenner. You are probably a few days beyond the 23d now?
Mr.Weissman. Right; I am. I am going now—everything was rather stable, static up until the Wednesday, the following Wednesday, when I left Dallas.
Mr.Jenner. I want to complete your whole day of the 23d before you move beyond that. Did you or Bill leave your apartment on the 23d?
Mr.Weissman. Yes; we were over at Larrie's house. I don't remember exactly the times. We had been to Larrie's place several times.
Mr.Jenner. Were you in the Dallas downtown business district at anytime on the 23d?
Mr.Weissman. I don't think so—no—no, as a matter of fact. In fact, I didn't get around to the business district until—yes. We went into the outer edge of the downtown area to get to the post office, to pick up the letters.
Mr.Jenner. That is right. On the 23d you went to the post office box and picked up the 60-odd letters that you have at home in New York.
Mr.Weissman. That is right. And then we went directly back to the apartment, and opened these letters.
Mr.Jenner. That is all you did in the downtown area?
Mr.Weissman. Yes; so far as I can recollect.
Mr.Jenner. Approximately what time of the day was that?
Mr.Weissman. That was in the morning. That was early in the morning—about 8 or 9 o'clock, I guess, in the morning.
Mr.Jenner. Did you receive any telephone calls at your apartment that day?
Mr.Weissman. I received—Larrie called us, I know. I don't recall what was said. It was just like, "What is happening—everything okay?"
On Monday I received aletter——
Mr.Jenner. Excuse me. Have we now accounted from the time you got up Saturday morning until the time you went to bed that evening?
Mr.Weissman. I don't recall. Bill and I might have gone out for a hamburger a couple of blocks away. We didn't go anywhere near downtown. We might have gone to Larrie's apartment that night. I am not sure.
Mr.Jenner. The 22d—we picked you up in your car with Mr. Burley around 12:30. Now, what happened that morning?
Mr.Weissman. That morning?
Mr.Jenner. Yes—the 22d. Where were you the morning of the 22d, up to 12:30 o'clock in the afternoon?
Mr.Weissman. Let's see. I left the apartment at about—I guess it was a little after 9. We had a 10 or 10:30 sales meeting scheduled, or 9:30. Anyway, I got there on time for the sales meeting.
Mr.Jenner. That was the carpet company by which you were employed?
Mr.Weissman. Exactly.
Mr.Jenner. Name it.
Mr.Weissman. Carpet Engineers.
Mr.Jenner. And you had obtained that job when?
Mr.Weissman. About a week after arriving in Dallas.
Mr.Jenner. And that was located where?
Mr.Weissman. 1002 South Beckley, in the Oak Cliff section of Dallas.
Mr.Jenner. In the Oak Cliff section?
Mr.Weissman. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. On Beckley?
Mr.Weissman. On Beckley.
Mr.Jenner. What was the address?
Mr.Weissman. 1002. I know what you are getting at. Oswald also had a room on Beckley, but he was on the opposite extreme. I think he was on North Beckley. I was on South Beckley.
Mr.Jenner. Give us the distance approximately between the location of the carpet company by which you were employed which is on South Beckley, and Oswald's address on North Beckley.
Mr.Weissman. At least a few miles. I don't know. I had never been on North Beckley.
Mr.Jenner. At no time while you were in Dallas were you ever on North Beckley?
Mr.Weissman. Not as far as I know, unless I got lost and didn't know where I was. But as far as I know, I have never been there.
Mr.Jenner. And you were a salesman of carpeting?
Mr.Weissman. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever sell any carpeting?
Mr.Weissman. Not a one.
Mr.Jenner. Did you make any effort?
Mr.Weissman. I made a lot of effort. This is where most of my money went—for gas and things like that.
Mr.Jenner. Your associate, Mr. Burley, was he a salesman for this company also?
Mr.Weissman. He quit about 2 weeks—about several days before the 22d. And he was looking—of course, one of us had to make money. We both were blanking out with the carpets.
Mr.Jenner. I take it, however, he had been employed by the same carpet company?
Mr.Weissman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. You made application together, did you?
Mr.Weissman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. And you were both employed at approximately the same time?
Mr.Weissman. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. But he left the carpet company before you did?
Mr.Weissman. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. And I understand you attended a sales meeting at the carpet company the morning of the 22d.
Mr.Weissman. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. When did that sales meeting break up?
Mr.Weissman. 12:30 for me. It was still going when I left. I left at 12:30 because I had this afternoon appointment, and also this meeting with Larrie. I had talked to the sales manager after that. Ihad——
Mr.Jenner. What was his name?
Mr.Weissman. Frank Demaria. And I had asked him if he had been questioned at all by the FBI. He said yes, they had been around. And I said, "What did you tell them?" And he mentioned at that time, he says, "We thought you had left about 12 o'clock." And I said, "What are you trying to do?"
And, anyway, this is the way it went. But I know I left at 12:30. They were embroiled in a big discussion, and they were not cognizant of the time. I was.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Now, would you tell us what you did on the 24th?
Mr.Weissman. Went to pick up the mail in the morning, went back to the apartment.
Mr.Jenner. You picked up mail in the morning on Sunday?
Mr.Weissman. That is right, the post office was open Sunday morning.
Mr.Jenner. You went to the post office on the 23d, which is Saturday, and you alsoreturned——
Mr.Weissman. No; I didn't go to the post office on Saturday the 23d.
Mr.Jenner. I misunderstood you, then.
Mr.Weissman. No; I am almost positive it was Sunday morning. I know it wasn't Saturday. I am positive—almost positive it was Sunday morning.
Mr.Dulles. That is when you picked up the 50-odd letters you referred to?
Mr.Weissman. Right.
Mr.Jenner. It was the day that you heard that Ruby had shot Oswald, was it?
Mr.Weissman. I am getting a little confused now. I think I might be 1day——
Mr.Jenner. See if we can orient you. The assassination of the President occurred on the 22d of November 1963, which is a Friday.
Mr.Weissman. Right.
Mr.Jenner. Then there was Saturday. Then on Sunday the 24th occurred the shooting of Lee Harvey Oswald by Jack Ruby.
Mr.Weissman. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Now, with those events in mind, when did you go to the post office box?
Mr.Weissman. Well, now, I know it was not Monday. Now, I am back in perspective. I am almost definitely sure it was Sunday morning.
Mr.Jenner. You said earlier that it was Saturday. You said it was the day after the ad appeared, that night, and you went the next day.
Mr.Weissman. No; couldn't have.
Mr.Jenner. That was an error?
Mr.Weissman. That was an error; yes. It was Sunday.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Now, on further reflection, your recollection is reasonably firm now that you did go to the post office box on Sunday rather than Saturday?
Mr.Weissman. I am almost positive it was Sunday morning.
Mr.Jenner. You are equally positive it was not Monday?
Mr.Weissman. It might either be—I remembered there was an awful lot of traffic. And I don't know if the traffic was because everybody was driving through downtown to go around the Houston viaduct to see the scene of the assassination or what. And this is what is confusing me now. That is why Iam not sure if it was Sunday morning—it might have been Monday morning. I doubt it. But it might have been.
Mr.Jenner. But it was early?
Mr.Weissman. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Around 8 o'clock?
Mr.Weissman. Eight, nine o'clock; yes.
Mr.Jenner. I was asking you to account for your comings and goings and your whereabouts on Sunday the 24th. And in the course of doing that, in referring to the morning, you mentioned that you had gone to the post office box. Now, what did you do thereafter?
Mr.Weissman. Went right back to the apartment.
Mr.Jenner. Did Mr. Burley accompany you?
Mr.Weissman. Yes; and another fellow. Ken—Kenneth Glazbrook.
Mr.Jenner. Who is he?
Mr.Weissman. This is a fellow associated with CUSA, but never really. He came in, as a matter of fact—yes; I had forgotten about him. President Kennedy was assassinated on a Friday. Ken Glazbrook arrived in town by bus on Friday night. We went down to the bus station to pick him up.
Mr.Jenner. You knew he was coming?
Mr.Weissman. Yes.He——
Mr.Jenner. Please identify him.
Mr.Weissman. Ken Glazbrook.
Mr.Jenner. Yes; who was he?
Mr.Weissman. Ken is what you might call a world traveler. This is a guy—he is a political science—he has a masters in political science from UCLA, I believe. And we had hoped to bring him in as our political analyst.
Mr.Jenner. Had you met him in the service?
Mr.Weissman. In Germany; yes. Larrie met him at one time originally. Ken was passing through Munich, and he had stopped off at our favorite bar, and gotten into a discussion with Larrie. And he had been through Munich after that two or three times, at one occasion which I met him. And he had also said, "I will meet you in Dallas."
But he came and he went. He stayed with Bill and I for a couple of days at our apartment, because he was on his way home to California. From what I understand now, he is back in Europe. He could not take it here.
Mr.Jenner. I am still accounting for Sunday. You went to the post office box, you think. You went to the bus station to pickup——
Mr.Weissman. I am not sure whether this was—I am pretty sure it was Friday night we picked him up at the bus station. It might have been Saturday night. But I am more sure in my mind—my inclination goes more toward Friday night.
Mr.Jenner. You saw him on Sunday?
Mr.Weissman. Ken?
Mr.Jenner. Did you see this man on Sunday?
Mr.Weissman. He was in the apartment with us.
Mr.Jenner. He came to stay with you?
Mr.Weissman. Yes; he brought a pitcher and a knapsack.
Mr.Jenner. Did he go down to the post office box with you?
Mr.Weissman. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And he returned to your apartment?
Mr.Weissman. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. What did you do then?
Mr.Weissman. We went through the letters. We were going pro and con, and reading them. We were very pleased at first because a lot of it was favorable, and then we got to the later postmarks, and those were terrible. We just discussed the letters for a while. And a girl came over. What was her name? Lynn something—I don't know her last name. And she sat around and talked for a while. We discussed the letters with her. Then Larrie came over that afternoon also. He was wearing a turtle-neck sweater. And we stayed around for a few hours. Then Larrie and Lynn took off to the Ducharme Club. And thereafter I don't know what happened to them. I did not hear from them at all. And—that is about it for Sunday.
Mr.Jenner. When did you first hear about the Ruby-Oswald incident?
Mr.Weissman. I think Larrie called me up. Yes, he was watching television at the Ducharme Club, I believe. I believe this was the occasion. I think he was with Lynn. And he telephoned me at the apartment. And that was the story.
Mr.Jenner. You have testified you were never in the Carousel Club.
Mr.Weissman. Never.
Mr.Jenner. What if any acquaintance did you have with Officer Tippit?
Mr.Weissman. None.
Mr.Jenner. What if any acquaintance did any of your associates have to your knowledge with Officer Tippit?
Mr.Weissman. Absolutely none.
Mr.Jenner. Had you ever heard of the name Officer Tippit?
Mr.Weissman. Never.
Mr.Jenner. Up to or any time during the day of November 22, 1963?
Mr.Weissman. None at all. The first I ever heard of this name was after Oswald shot him, and it came over the TV, that a policeman had been shot near a movie theater. That was the first I had heard that name.
Mr.Jenner. Do you know whether any of your associates, Schmidt or Burley or Jones, or any persons you have mentioned, knew Officer Tippit?
Mr.Weissman. To the best of my knowledge, no.
Mr.Jenner. Did anything occur during all the time you were in Dallas to lead you to believe any of these people, including Mr. Grinnan, for example, had had any connection with or association or knowledge of or acquaintance with Tippit?
Mr.Weissman. Not as far as I know. I don't know too much about Joe Grinnan.
Mr.Jenner. Did you at anytime while you were in Dallas ever have a meeting with or sit in the Carousel Club with Officer Tippit?
Mr.Weissman. No.
Mr.Jenner. Do you know or do you have any information as to whether any of the associates you have mentioned ever had a meeting with Officer Tippit in the Carousel Club?
Mr.Weissman. None whatsoever.
Mr.Jenner. Or whether or not, irrespective of whether it was a formal meeting or even an informal one, that they were with Officer Tippit at anytime in the Carousel Club.
Mr.Weissman. Absolutely not.
Mr.Jenner. And you were never in the Carousel Club at all; and you never were with Officer Tippit.
Mr.Weissman. Right.
Mr.Jenner. Any place.
Mr.Weissman. Any place.
Mr.Jenner. Mr. Weissman, it has been asserted that a meeting took place on November 14, 1963, in the Carousel Club between Officer Tippit and yourself—and I take it from your testimony that you vigorously deny that that ever took place.
Mr.Weissman. Very definitely. May I say something in relation to this?
Mr.Jenner. Is it pertinent to this?
Mr.Weissman. I believe so. I believe that this is a statement made by Mark Lane, who claimed to be attorney for the deceased Oswald. It was originally made at the Town Hall in New York, and later that same evening, I do not recall the date exactly, on a radio program Contact WINS New York, at about midnight of that same day.
At that time I telephoned the radio station and spoke to Mark Lane. This is the first I had heard of the allegation at all.
Mr.Jenner. You telephoned the radio station?
Mr.Weissman. Right.
Mr.Jenner. And you asked for Mr. Lane.
Mr.Weissman. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. Did the man for whom you asked come to the phone?
Mr.Weissman. Yes; he did.
Mr.Jenner. Had you known Mr. Lane prior to this time?
Mr.Weissman. Never heard of him before.
Mr.Jenner. You had never spoken to him?
Mr.Weissman. Never.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ask—when there was an answer on the phone, did you ask who it was that was on the phone?
Mr.Weissman. I said something to the effect of "Hello, Mr. Lane?"
Mr.Jenner. What did the voice on the other end of the phone say?
Mr.Weissman. He said yes—yes something.
Mr.Jenner. Did you identify yourself?
Mr.Weissman. Yes; I did.
Mr.Jenner. Did you identify yourself before or after you asked whether the voice was that of Mr. Lane?
Mr.Weissman. I identified myself—I called the radio station and it was a telephone thing that was broadcast over the air, question and answer—you telephone in a question and he answers. So I telephoned, and just by luck I happened to get through on the first ring. And somebody said, "Who is calling?" I said, "I would like to speak with Mr. Lane. This is Bernard Weissman calling, chairman of the American Fact-Finding Committee." And so I got him on the phone, because they could not pass this up. And I told him, I identified him that "You are the attorney for the assassin Oswald"—this is just what I said to him.
Mr.Jenner. What did he say?
Mr.Weissman. And he said—he murmured in agreement. He did not say emphatically "Yes; I am." But he said, "Um-hum," something to that effect. And I said, "I know what you are trying to do. I think you are hunting for headlines. But you had been talking to some liar in Dallas who has been feeding you all this baloney about me. You are making all these allegations at the Town Hall and now on radio. And you have never taken the trouble to contact me. My name has been in the paper. It is very well known where I live. I am in the phone book. You could have at least tried to contact me." And I pinned him up against the wall verbally. And he agreed at thattime——
Mr.Jenner. What did he say?
Mr.Weissman. He said that he had no definite proof, that he would have to check on it.
Mr.Jenner. Proof of what?
Mr.Weissman. Proof of the allegations.
Mr.Jenner. Did you mention what the allegation was when you talked with him on the telephone?
Mr.Weissman. Yes; I did.
Mr.Jenner. What did you say?
Mr.Weissman. I said, "You are alleging that I had a meeting with Patrolman Tippit in Jack Ruby's bar with some unidentified third person about a week before the assassination." I said, "You are going strictly on the story of some liar in Dallas." I said, "If you had any courage or commonsense or really wanted to get at the facts, you would have called and asked me, too." And he agreed, yes, he should have talked to me.
Mr.Jenner. Did he say yes he should have talked to you?
Mr.Weissman. Yes; and that he would also recheck his facts in Dallas. And that ended the essence of the conversation.
Mr.Jenner. Have you exhausted your recollection as to that conversation?
Mr.Weissman. As to that particular conversation; yes.
Mr.Jenner. When you adverted to his assertion in the Town Hall meeting, that you had been present in the Carousel Club in a meeting with Officer Tippit, did you say that you denied that you were ever in the Carousel Club?
Mr.Weissman. I denied that; yes.
Mr.Jenner. That was what you said.
Mr.Weissman. I said, "I did not know Lee Harvey Oswald. I did not know Jack Ruby. I have never been in the Carousel Club."
Mr.Jenner. And you said that to him over the telephone on thatoccasion——
Mr.Weissman. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. What was his response to that?
Mr.Weissman. This is when he came up with he would have to recheck hisfacts and he would have to check into it. Subsequently, I had talked to him later that same evening—the show went off at 1 a.m. in the morning. And I had been given a private number to call at the radio station. I talked to him on the telephone.
Mr.Jenner. How did you get that number?
Mr.Weissman. The announcer gave it over the air. And he said, "If you want to speak with Mr. Lane"—because I was getting pretty hot.
Mr.Jenner. You mean angry?
Mr.Weissman. Angry; yes. And he said, "If you want to talk to Mr. Lane call him after the show is over, about 5 after 1." I forget the number of the station. And I telephoned him.
Mr.Jenner. You called the same number again.
Mr.Weissman. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. You asked for Mr. Lane.
Mr.Weissman. Yes; I did.
Mr.Jenner. And somebody responded?
Mr.Weissman. Mr. Lane got on the wire.
Mr.Jenner. Was it the same voice?
Mr.Weissman. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. What did he say in the way of acknowledging that it was Mr. Lane?
Mr.Weissman. I went into it again.
Mr.Jenner. Did you say, "Mr. Lane"?
Mr.Weissman. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And the voice's response was what?
Mr.Weissman. I said, "Hello, Mr. Lane." And he said—I said, "Hello, Mr. Lane." And he said, "Yes."
"This is Bernie Weissman" or Mr. Weissman. And he said "Yes." And then I reiterated what I had said, and that he had better check his facts—and "I am going to get a hold of some friends in Dallas to check on your witness and find out who he is."
Mr.Jenner. Please identify these people.
Mr.Weissman. I was saying this to Mark Lane. And Mark Lane repeatedagain——
Mr.Jenner. Please say again what you said to Mr. Lane, and then what his response was, because with the rapidity with which you speak, it is difficult to sort out his words from your words.
Mr.Weissman.Well——
Mr.Jenner. It might be well if you started over again. You called the station. You asked for Mr. Lane and a voice responded.
Mr.Weissman. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. You then said, "Mark Lane"? And he responded?
Mr.Weissman. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Now, carry on from there.
Mr.Weissman. I told him that he had better check his facts, that he is off on a tangent, that there is absolutely no factual background.
Mr.Jenner. For what?
Mr.Weissman. For him saying, his allegations, that I had had this meeting with Tippit in Ruby's bar.
Mr.Jenner. Did you repeat that again? Did you repeat again that you had not been in the Carousel Club at anytime?
Mr.Weissman. I don't know if I repeated it at that time. I just made a point of saying that he had better check his facts and talk with me also, and get both sides of the story here, before he got himself in trouble. By trouble, I had assumed he knew what I meant—I meant a lawsuit. And I would have sued him, but I could not find a lawyer to handle the case. They said any publicity that comes out of it would be only bad. So I dropped it. Several dayslater——
Mr.Jenner. Have you finished the conversation?
Mr.Weissman. I have finished the conversation with him. Several days later I got ahold of his office number.
Mr.Jenner. Would you fix the time of this Town Hall meeting broadcast, as best you can.
Mr.Weissman. I am pretty sure it was on the 28th or the morning of the 29th—on the Town Hall thing? That was the afternoon of the 28th of April, I believe. I believe it was April. It was prior to his coming to a hearing here at the Commission. And in any case, I telephoned him several days after our radio and telephone conversation—I telephoned him at his office in Manhattan and got him on the line again. And I said, "Well, what has happened?" I was very curious as to what he had done about this.
Mr.Jenner. Where did you reach him?
Mr.Weissman. At his office in Manhattan. I do not know the address. I had first contacted a law firm he was associated with previously, and they gave me his office number in lower Manhattan. And I telephoned him at his office. The secretary answered, then he got on the line. And he said this time—I don't recall exactly what was said before or after this particular part of the conversation. But I said that I want to meet this guy in Dallas, the one who told him this story and call him a liar to his face, and that I wanted it to be a public meeting, and Mark Lane said he would arrange for a public meeting, he would pay my transportation to Dallas to see this guy as soon as he could arrange a meeting. And I have not heard from him since.
Mr.Jenner. To check that date you gave us again. Mr. Weissman—Mr. Lane appeared before the Commission on Wednesday, March 4, 1964.
Mr.Weissman. March 4? March? I did not think it was that long ago. If he appeared March 4, then the conversation—well, I stand corrected. I am not positive of the month.
Mr.Jenner. It might have been February 28?
Mr.Weissman. It might have been. If it was March 4 he appeared here, it might have been February 28, because there seemed to be several weeks lapse between his cominghere——
Mr.Jenner. Are you certain, however, that your telephone conversation with him the evening of the broadcast following the Town Hall meeting was before he appeared before the Commission?
Mr.Weissman. Unless he appeared twice, I am a 100 percent positive.
Mr.Jenner. And from what source did your information come that he had appeared before the Commission?
Mr.Weissman. Newspapers.
Mr.Jenner. I think we can close this. I show you Garner Exhibit No. 1. Did you ever see the person who is shown on that photograph?
Mr.Weissman. No.
Mr.Jenner. I show you Commission Exhibit No. 520 and direct your attention to the man in the white tee shirt between the two policemen. Did you ever see him before?
Mr.Weissman. No.
Mr.Jenner. Prior to November 22, 1963, had you ever seen him?
Mr.Weissman. Never.
Mr.Jenner. And except for these photographs, and whatever newspaper clippings or photos you have seen since November 22, or television shows on or after November 22, have you ever seen that person in the flesh?
Mr.Weissman. Never.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever have any contact with him of any kind?
Mr.Weissman. Never.
Mr.Jenner. Telephone calls, letters, memoranda of any kind or character?
Mr.Weissman. Never.
Mr.Jenner. Mr. Chairman, there is correspondence that Mr. Weissman has, and I wonder if it would be convenient with the Commission if we could return at 2:30. In the meantime I will be able to look at some of the material he has to see if any of it is relevant and helpful to the Commission.
Mr.Dulles. I would like to adjourn at this time if we can, because I have a luncheon appointment.
Mr.Jenner. That is what I am suggesting, sir.
Mr.Dulles. Good.
We will adjourn until 2:30.
(Whereupon, at 1:05 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)