RepresentativeBoggs. Do you aspire to become a citizen of the United States, or are you a citizen?*
*Mrs.Oswald. I am not a citizen. I wish to become an American citizen.
SenatorRussell. Mrs. Oswald, when you were before us before, you testified that you were not a member of any church, but you had your own religion in your own heart, as I recall?* **
*Mrs.Oswald. In Russia I did not belong to any church. No one belongs to any church in Russia.
SenatorRussell. Except old women?
*Mrs.Oswald. I'll say this—that I believe it's unhealthy in the Soviet Union to openly belong to any church. While there is no persecution of religious belief in Russia, the officials look at it with much disfavor.
SenatorRussell. But you are not actually a member of the church, are you?* **
**Mrs.Oswald. In Russian churches, they don't have a fee or they don't have any membership, they have dues in Russian churches.
SenatorRussell. But you've not been baptized in any church?*
Mrs.Oswald. Oh, yes; I have been baptized.
SenatorRussell. When were you baptized?
Mrs.Oswald. I don't remember.
SenatorRussell. Are you actually a member of the church?* **
**Mrs.Oswald. Actually, I am not a member as you know in the United States. However, I belong to the church, the Russian church here in Dallas, and I don't pay dues.
SenatorRussell. You are more of a communicant now than you are a member of the church?
Mrs.Oswald. I think the understanding of church membership is different in the Soviet Union or in the understanding of a person that was brought up in the Soviet Union.
SenatorRussell. I am concerned about this testimony, Mrs. Oswald, aboutyour believing now that Lee was shooting at Connally and not at the President, because you did not tell us that before.*
*Mrs.Oswald. At that time I didn't think so, but the more I mull over it in my own mind trying to get it in my own mind what made him do what he did, the more I think that he was shooting at Connally rather than President Kennedy.
SenatorRussell. Now, did you not testify before that Lee wrote a letter to Connally when he was Secretary of the Navy about the nature of his Marine discharge?
Mrs.Oswald. Yes.
SenatorRussell. And that when he got a letter back, that you asked him what it was?
Mrs.Oswald. Yes.
SenatorRussell. And he said, "Well, it's just some Bureaucrat's statement"?*
Mrs.Oswald. Yes.
*Yes.
SenatorRussell. Did you not further testify that Lee said in discussing the gubernatorial election in Texas that if he were here and voting, that he would vote for Mr. Connally?*
*Mrs.Oswald. Yes.
SenatorRussell. Now, do you think he would shoot and kill a man that he would vote for, for the Governor of his state?* **
**Mrs.Oswald. The only reason is—I am trying to analyze, myself, there was a reason—more reason to dislike Connally as a man than he had for Kennedy.
SenatorRussell. Well, she testified before that he had spoken, as far as Lee spoke favorably of anyone, that he had spoken favorably of both Kennedy and of Governor Connally.**
**Mrs.Oswald. He also told me that he was also favorable toward Connally, while they were in Russia. There is a possibility that he changed his mind, but he never told her that.
SenatorRussell. Well, I think that's about as speculative as the answers I've read here. He might have changed his mind, but he didn't tell her anything about it, as she testified—that discussing politics in Texas, that he said that if he were here when they had the election, that he would vote for John Connally for Governor, and that was after he got the letter about the Marine corps.* **
**Mrs.Oswald. That happened in Russia when he received some kind of pamphlet with a picture of Connally, a separate time, at which time he remarked that when he returned, if and when he returned to Texas he would vote for Connally.
SenatorRussell. That's right—that's exactly right, but yet now you say that he was his prime target.
I want to know what Connally had done to Lee since he got back from Russia that would cause him to change his mind, to shoot him?* **
*Mrs.Oswald. I do not know, but there is a possibility that Lee became hateful of Connally because the matter of this dishonorable discharge was dragging so long.
SenatorRussell. Yes; but Connally had left the Navy, where he had anything to do with the discharge, before he got the pamphlet about his being a candidate for Governor?** *
**Mrs.Oswald. I am not sure when that particular thing happened, whether Mr. Connally was the Secretary of the Navy or what he was doing.
SenatorRussell. Well, it's a matter of common knowledge that he ran for Governor after he resigned as Secretary of the Navy.
Mrs.Oswald. I don't know.
SenatorRussell. Did you not know that when Mr. Connally was running for Governor of Texas, he was no longer Secretary of the Navy and had nothing to do with the Marine Corps?*
*Mrs.Oswald. Yes, I knew—I knew that he was not the Secretary of the Navy any more because Lee told me that Connally stated in the letter to Lee that he was no longer Secretary of Navy and hence he couldn't do anything for him, and that Connally referred the petition to the proper authorities.
SenatorRussell. Mrs. Oswald, didn't Lee read about government a great deal? Didn't Lee read about civic affairs and about government a great deal?*
*Mrs.Oswald. He read books about Kennedy, about Hitler, about others.
SenatorRussell. Haven't you been in this country long enough to know that the President is Commander and Chief of the Army and Navy and he's even head of the Secretary of the Navy. He can order him to do anything he wants to?*
*Mrs.Oswald. I didn't pay any attention to it or I didn't know it or wasn't told.
SenatorRussell. Do you have any facts on which you base your opinion now that Lee Oswald was shooting and was intending to kill Connally rather than President Kennedy?*
*Mrs.Oswald. I have no facts whatsoever. I simply express an opinion which perhaps is not logical at all, but I am sorry if I mixed everybody up.
SenatorRussell. You haven't mixed anybody up, except I think that you have your evidence terribly confused.*
*Mrs.Oswald. No; I have no facts whatsover. I'm sorry I told them that.
SenatorRussell. Do you know whether or not Lee knew Connally personally or did he know that he was going to be in this motorcade at all?*
*Mrs.Oswald. No; I did not know whether Lee knew or ever contacted the Governor personally, and I don't know whether Lee knew that the Governor would be in the motorcade.
SenatorRussell. But Lee did take his gun into town that day, and so far as you know, I believe you said that was the first day he had carried it into town?
*Mrs.Oswald. I do not personally know that Lee took the rifle that morning or the night before. Apparently the Commission has witnesses or information to that effect, but of my own knowledge, I don't know.
SenatorRussell. Did you not testify that you thought this was Lee's rifle that was shown you as the one that shot Connally and the President?*
*Mrs.Oswald. Yes; I testified that that was the rifle.
Mr.Gopadze. No—I'm sorry. As far as she knows about the arms, the rifle which was shown to her looked like the one he had.
Mr.Gregory. Yes; that's right.
SenatorRussell. That's all I asked her. That's just exactly what I asked her.
Mr.Gregory. Yes; that's correct.
SenatorRussell. In discussing the motorcade, did he say anything about Connally would be riding with the President?*
*Mrs.Oswald. No; he did not.
SenatorRussell. I believe you testified, did you not, Mrs. Oswald, that the day before Lee told you that he fired at General Walker, that he seemed to be under great emotional stress, strain, very tense?* **
*Mrs.Oswald. He was angry and excited. He was angry and excited.
SenatorRussell. Did he show any of that on the morning that he left home when the President was assassinated?* **
*Mrs.Oswald. Well, I did not notice any difference in Lee's attitude during that morning from any other day. But sometimes, quite often, he was impulsive and nervous and excited. I got tired from watching him in those particular moods, in his moods, and I didn't pay any attention.
SenatorRussell. Why did you happen to watch him then on the morning that he shot at General Walker?*
*Mrs.Oswald. I simply—his mood left no impression on me that particular morning. There was nothing extraordinary about it.
SenatorRussell. On the Walker morning?
Mrs.Oswald. No, no—on the morning of the President's assassination.
SenatorRussell. Yes, but you said you noticed it on the morning before he shot Walker?
Mrs.Oswald. Are you talking about Walker?
SenatorRussell. If you didn't notice his moods, how did you happen to notice it on the day before he shot at General Walker?* **
Mrs.Oswald. The reason I didn't notice that particular morning about his mood was because the night before we had a little quarrel and I didn't pay any attention to that, particularly, and I was thinking that it was due to that quarrel we had the night before.
SenatorRussell. Well, of course, that was the quarrel you had about him registering under an assumed name or giving an assumed name at his room.**
Was that not the time, did you not try to telephone him and they told you that no such person stayed there at all?
*Mrs.Oswald. That was the cause of the quarrel. You see, at this particular morning of the assassination, I was very tired because the baby woke up several times during the night and I was very tired, and in the morning I did not register or I did not even attempt to register his moods.
SenatorRussell. I think you testified before that you only saw him when he got up, that you stayed in bed and that he got up and fixed his own coffee and got out.* **
*Mrs.Oswald. The only extraordinary thing that I noticed about him the morning of the assassination was that when Lee was leaving the house, he asked me if I purchased a pair of shoes.
SenatorRussell. For June?
Mrs.Oswald. For me.
SenatorRussell. And for June?*
*Mrs.Oswald. And for the baby.
SenatorRussell. And for June?
*Mrs.Oswald. And that was the only thing that was extraordinary, and I wondered what was happening that he became, that he was so kind all of a sudden.
SenatorRussell. That was out of the money in the black wallet, too?
Mrs.Oswald. Yes.
*Yes—that was a fleeting thought in my mind of why the change in him.
SenatorRussell. But apparently he was not as excited and as upset as he was the morning before the Walker shooting?*
*Mrs.Oswald. He was just as usual—sort of sleepy that particular morning. He was not excited. Then, I was so sleepy myself that I didn't pay any attention.
SenatorRussell. But you did testify that he was unusually excited the night before he shot at General walker, did you not?
*Mrs.Oswald. The more time is passing, the more I am mixed up as to the exact occurrence. I'm forgetting these fine details with the passing of time.
Mr.Rankin. Mr. Chairman, I wonder if we could take a 5-minute recess? The reporter has been at it a long time?
SenatorRussell. Oh, yes; I don't know how she's stood it. I've never seen one in the Congress that took it anything like that long.
TheReporter. Thank you.
Mr.Rankin. And we will let you have a 5 minute recess, Mrs. Oswald.
(At this point the proceedings were recessed and resumed as stated, at 6:40 p.m., Sunday, September 6, 1964.)
Mr.Rankin. Mr. Chairman.
Mrs. Oswald, you have not appeared here today with a lawyer, have you?*
Mrs.Oswald. Yes.
Mr.Rankin. You have not, is that right? You have no lawyer with you?
Mrs.Oswald. No.
SenatorRussell. No.
Mr.Rankin. When you appeared before the Commission the other two times, you did have a lawyer with you, did you not?
Mrs.Oswald. Yes—the other two times.
Mr.Rankin. Is there some reason why you do not have a lawyer at this time?*
*Mrs.Oswald. That attorney cost me too much.
Mr.Rankin. And—before this hearing, Mrs. Oswald, we offered to, that is the Commission offered to furnish you an attorney if you wanted one to be supplied to you for this hearing, did it not?* **
**Mrs.Oswald. You did so?
Mr.Rankin. I understood that that message was given to you by the Secret Service that we would ask for the appointment of counsel to attend the meetingwith you, if you wished it, and you said you didn't need it, you would just tell the truth?
Mrs.Oswald. Mr. Sorrels called me on telephone and he asked me if I have a lawyer, an attorney, and I said, "No," and he told me, "Do I want to have one?" and I said, "No."
Mr.Rankin. And you understood that you would be supplied a lawyer if you wanted one and you said you didn't, is that right?
Mrs.Oswald. Yes.
Mr.Rankin. You referred to the fact, when you were asked, that your husband had a rifle in the Soviet Union while he was there. In your prior testimony, you referred to either a rifle or a shotgun, do you know which it was?*
*Mrs.Oswald. I do not know the difference between the shotgun and the rifle.
Mr.Rankin. Do you know that he had one or the other?*
*Mrs.Oswald. I know that there is a difference between this particular rifle and another rifle, but I don't know what the difference is. It was perhaps a different color.
Mr.Rankin. You know that in the Soviet Union he did have either a rifle or a shotgun, do you?*
Mrs.Oswald. Yes.
Mr.Rankin. Turning to the period when you were in New Orleans, just before you went back to Dallas with Ruth Paine, do you recall that time?*
*Mrs.Oswald. Yes—faintly.
Mr.Rankin. Do you remember that was the latter part of September?*
Mrs.Oswald. **Possibly.
Mr.Rankin. Do you remember what date you went back to Dallas from New Orleans?* **
*Mrs.Oswald. It wasn't the 26th of September?
Mr.Rankin. Wasn't it about the 23d of September that you went back?* **
Mrs.Oswald. The 23d?
*I do not know.
Mr.Rankin. Do you remember that you had a discussion with your husband about the unemployment check that he was to receive about that time?* **
*Mrs.Oswald. I remember Lee told me that he was expecting an unemployment check just before he left for Mexico.
Mr.Rankin. Did he tell you that he had changed the postal address and that that check would probably come to Ruth Paine's?*
*Mrs.Oswald. He told me that he was going to change his address and that the letters would come to that new address of Ruth Paine.
Mr.Rankin. Did the unemployment check ever come to Ruth Paine's?*
*Mrs.Oswald. When he returned from Mexico, he asked me if the unemployment check arrived, and I replied that I did not know. No; there was no check.
Mr.Rankin. Did he say anything about getting the check at New Orleans and cashing it himself?* **
*Mrs.Oswald. I do not remember it right now, but if I mentioned that to the Commission before, then it was so.
Mr.Rankin. Do you have any recollection about it now?*
*Mrs.Oswald. I do not recall distinctly now, but I think there was some conversation about the check being long in transit, that the check was sent from Dallas to New Orleans and from New Orleans to Irving.
Mr.Rankin. Well apparently, Mrs. Oswald, the facts show that the check was cashed by your husband with a stamped mark of the bank, dated the 26th of September, in New Orleans. Does that refresh your memory at all?* **
*Mrs.Oswald. I was not with Lee at that time.
Mr.Rankin. Did he ever tell you anything about it?*
*Mrs.Oswald. I do not remember at this moment.
Mr.Rankin. Apparently he cashed the check at the little store, or the supermarket, near where you lived there in New Orleans. Did he every tell you that?* **
*Mrs.Oswald. No; he did not tell me. I do not remember that he told me.
Mr.Rankin. Did Lee ever tell you where he stayed the night after you left, that is, the night of the 23d of September?*
*Mrs.Oswald. He told me that he stayed in that same house.
Mr.Rankin. At the house where you had lived?**
**Mrs.Oswald. He stayed with his aunt. I remember something that he stayed a couple days with his aunt in New Orleans.
*Did I leave on the 23d?
Mr.Rankin. Yes.
*Mrs.Oswald. I do not recall distinctly at this moment, but I believe he said he spent the first night at the house where we lived, and perhaps one or two nights at Aunt Lillian's.
Mr.Rankin. Is there something else?
Mrs.Oswald. It is so difficult for me to remember now.
Mr.Rankin. Did your husband have any Cuban friends at New Orleans?*
*Mrs.Oswald. I do not know about this.
Mr.Rankin. Do you remember the time a man by the name of Bringuier came to the house there? Bringuier [spelling] B-r-i-n-g-u-i-e-r.
*Mrs.Oswald. Someone came, but I don't know from which organization or who he was.
Mr.Rankin. Was there more than one person who came asking about that or only one?*
Mrs.Oswald. Just one.
Mr.Rankin. Do you recall that your husband hired someone to help hand out leaflets about fair play for Cuba on the streets of New Orleans?*
*Mrs.Oswald. He mentioned that he hired a boy to help him, by giving him some money to buy ice cream or something—I don't know.
Mr.Rankin. I'll hand you what is marked as Frank Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-A, which is a photograph, and ask you if you recognize your husband there, and also, any of the other men there in the picture?*
*Mrs.Oswald(examining instrument mentioned). I recognize only my husband.
Mr.Rankin. Is your husband the man with the marks that sort of look like a "T" in light green?*
Mrs.Oswald. Yes.
Mr.Rankin. I ask you if you recognize anyone besides your husband in Frank Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B?*
Mrs.Oswald. No. *No. [Examining instrument mentioned.] No.
Mr.Rankin. But you do recognize your husband there?
Mrs.Oswald. Yes—yes.
Mr.Rankin. He has a green mark over his photograph, does he not?
Mrs.Oswald. Yes.
Mr.Rankin. Do you know whether or not your husband consulted any attorneys in New Orleans while he was there?*
*Mrs.Oswald. I do not know about this.
Mr.Rankin. Do you know of a Clay Bertrand, [spelling] B-e-r-t-r-a-n-d?*
*Mrs.Oswald. No.
Mr.Rankin. Did your husband ever say anything about consulting an attorney about his discharge from the Marines or about his American citizenship?* **
*Mrs.Oswald. He did not.
Mr.Rankin. Do you know whether or not your husband was in Dallas in September between the 23d, the date that you left with Mrs. Paine, and the 26th of September—at any time?*
*Mrs.Oswald. I do not know.
Mr.Rankin. Did he ever say anything about anything like that?*
*Mrs.Oswald. No.
Mr.Rankin. Did you ever know a Sylvia Odio, [spelling] O-d-i-o?*
*Mrs.Oswald. No.
Mr.Rankin. You never heard of her?*
*Mrs.Oswald. No.
Mr.Rankin. Sylvia Odio is a woman in Dallas who said that your husband, along with two Cubans, came to see her under the name "Leon Oswald," on the evening of the 25th or the 26th of September 1963. Do you know anything about that?*
**Mrs.Oswald. No; I do not know about this.
Mr.Rankin. Have you ever heard of her?*
*Mrs.Oswald. No.
Mr.Rankin. Did you ever hear of a person by the name of Rodriguez [Spelling] R-o-d-r-i-g-u-e-z, that your husband was said to have known in New Orleans, while you were there? Do you know whether your husband ever knew a Rodriguez [spelling] R-o-d-r-i-g-u-e-z in New Orleans?*
*Mrs.Oswald. He may have known him, but I don't know anything about it.
Mr.Rankin. He never told you that he knew anyone like that?*
*Mrs.Oswald. No; he did not tell me.
Mr.Rankin. When you lived in New Orleans and after your husband lost his job, did he stay away from home in the evenings much?*
*Mrs.Oswald. He was not at home during the day time, but he was at home most of the time in the evenings.
Mr.Rankin. And by being at home in the evenings, what time do you mean—from 6 o'clock on, or 7 o'clock, or what time?*
*Mrs.Oswald. After 7.
Mr.Rankin. Did he ever show signs of having been drinking or being drunk when he came home?*
*Mrs.Oswald. Never.
Mr.Rankin. Did he ever talk about having seen some friends or some Cubans or Mexicans in the bar or some bar in New Orleans?* **
*Mrs.Oswald. No; it's strange for me to hear that Lee visited bars or that he drank.
Mr.Rankin. Did you know of his drinking at all in New Orleans?*
*Mrs.Oswald. I never did.
Mr.Rankin. He was arrested in connection with the Fair Play for Cuba matter around August 9, if you will recall. You may not remember the exact date, but I refresh your memory and call your attention to the fact that it was that date—August 9?*
*Mrs.Oswald. I know about this.
Mr.Rankin. How did that come to your attention, how did you learn about it?*
*Mrs.Oswald. That night I waited for him until 3 o'clock in the morning. Then, I went to bed. When he came in the morning, I asked him where he had been and he told me he was arrested by the police.
Mr.Rankin. Had he stayed out all night that way before?* **
Mrs.Oswald. No.
Mr.Rankin. It hadn't ever happened before?**
Mrs.Oswald. No.
Mr.Rankin. You say it never happened that he would even stay out late in the evening?*
Mrs.Oswald. No; sometimes he was delayed, but he would be home by 9 o'clock.
Mr.Rankin. Did you ever hear your husband say anything about being associated with any pro-Castro or anti-Castro groups in Dallas?*
*Mrs.Oswald. I didn't know that he belonged to any organization in Dallas.
Mr.Rankin. Did you know of any such associations or any associations with Cubans after he returned from Mexico City?*
*Mrs.Oswald. I do not know about this.
Mr.Rankin. Did he ever mention Sylvia Odio to you or any name like that, that you recall?* **
*Mrs.Oswald. No.
Mr.Rankin. Now, when you testified before the Commission before, you were asked what kind of a job your husband had at the Minsk factory, do you recall that?*
*Mrs.Oswald. Yes.
Mr.Rankin. You said he read blueprints and translated them into the finished product. Do you remember your husband saying anything like that to you?* **
*Mrs.Oswald. I don't think I testified to that.
Mr.Rankin. You don't recall testifying to that?*
Mrs.Oswald. I testified that he was a—slesar.
Mr.Gregory. Off the record, please?
She names a trade and that Russian word stands for locksmith, but I know that he was not a locksmith, I mean, from the description of work that he was doing. He was working at a factory where he was assembling details for—metallic details. He was a machinist apprentice working on parts for radio receivers.
Mr.Rankin. He told the FBI at one time in one of the interviews that he was busy reading blueprints and translating them.
Mr. Gregory, are you telling me what she says his job was or are you telling me what you know?
Mr.Gregory. No; she's telling me, but Mrs. Oswald tells me that the technical name of his job was the Russian word (spelling) s-l-e-s-a-r'.
Mr.Rankin. Now, will you describe, Mrs. Oswald, what he did in that job so it will be clearer than just that word. Tell us what he did?*
*Mrs.Oswald. I have never been at the plant where Lee worked or in any factory, but from the description that Lee gaveme——
Mr.Rankin. Tell us that?* **
*Mrs.Oswald. He was grinding details—detailed parts for small parts, small metallic parts for radio receivers, on a lathe.
Perhaps he was boasting about the importance of his work when he told you about reading the blueprints and translating them into the finished product. He may have actually done that kind of work, but I know nothing about that.
Mr.Rankin. Was the only work that he told you he was doing during the period that you were there in Minsk, this job of grinding these parts on the lathe?*
*Mrs.Oswald. While he and I lived together—yes. That was the kind of work that he was doing in Minsk.
Mr.Rankin. And that's all that you know of?*
*Mrs.Oswald. That's all I know about his work.
Mr.Rankin. Now, turning to the period that your husband was in Moscow in 1959 when he first came there, and, of course, you were married later than that, did he tell you about his experiences when he first came to Moscow?*
*Mrs.Oswald. He told me that for the most part he visited museums and studied the Russian language.
Mr.Rankin. Did he say anything about the intourist guides, the women studied the Russian language.
Mrs.Oswald. The Russian guides?
Mr.Rankin. Did he tell you about any of the others that he knew there?*
*Mrs.Oswald. He did, but I don't remember their names, except Rimma. The only reason I remember Rimma Sherikova is because she visited us in Minsk. She did not come especially to see us, but she was passing through Minsk and stopped to see us.
Mr.Rankin. What did your husband tell you about Rimma?*
*Mrs.Oswald. That she was a very fine, pretty, smart young girl, and unfortunately, older than he is, and that she helped him a great deal.
Mr.Rankin. Did he tell you how she helped him?*
*Mrs.Oswald. First of all, as an interpreter.
Mr.Rankin. What else?
*Mrs.Oswald. And that he spent time with her and did not feel lonesome.
Mr.Rankin. Did he say anything about Rimma or the other intourist guides helping him with learning Russian?*
*Mrs.Oswald. Yes; he did.
Mr.Rankin. Did he say how much they did that?*
*Mrs.Oswald. No; he did not.
Mr.Rankin. Did he say anything about the guides helping him in dealing with the Embassy about his citizenship or giving up his citizenship?* **
*Mrs.Oswald. No; he did not tell me about that.
Mr.Rankin. Did he say anything about the guides giving him any financial help?*
*Mrs.Oswald. No; he did not tell me.
Mr.Rankin. Did your husband say anything about when he learned that he might be able to stay in Russia, how he learned it?
*Mrs.Oswald. No; he did not. He, Lee, took part in radio broadcasts, propaganda in favor of the Soviet Union, which he felt helped him to get permission to stay in the Soviet Union.
Mr.Rankin. Did he say when he did that?*
*Mrs.Oswald. That was before my time.
Mr.Rankin. How did you learn about it?*
*Mrs.Oswald. He told me about it. Lee told me that the Soviet Union offered him Soviet citizenship, but he turned it down. He told me that he turned it down. At the same time, other developments as I recall, left the impression with me that he actually wanted to become a Soviet citizen, but I didn't connect the two. There is a discrepancy between the two, but at the time, I couldn't reconcile these apparent differences in what he said.
Mr.Rankin. You know he told the reporters that he talked to in Moscow in November, that the Government was going to let him stay, but his diary says he didn't get that word until January the 4th of the following year. Now, do you know anything about that, how that happened?*
Mrs.Oswald. 1960?
Mr.Rankin. 1959 in November is when he told the reporters, and it was January 4, 1960, that he actually put it in his diary that he had the first learning of it?*
Mrs.Oswald. That they would let him stay in the Soviet Union?
Mr.Rankin. Yes.
Mrs.Oswald. Newspaper reporters?
Mr.Rankin. Yes; newspaper reporters—Miss Johnson and Miss Mosby.*
*Mrs.Oswald. He made the entry into his diary, I think, at a later date, and they may not be correct or precise—just one.
Mr.Gregory. I think she's a little tired. She's saying many words, but I can't connect them. She says, "To be brief, I don't believe I know."
Mr.Rankin. We will soon be through, Mrs. Oswald. There are just a few more questions.*
When your husband said that he had spoken over the radio and he thought that helped him, did he tell you what he said over the radio?* **
*Mrs.Oswald. He spoke over the radio of how everything—how wonderful everything was in the Soviet Union, or what he thought they liked to hear.
Mr.Rankin. And did you understand that he spoke that in Moscow while he was there?*
*Mrs.Oswald. Yes; while he was in Moscow.
Mr.Rankin. That was during the period after he had first come to the country and before he came to Minsk, is that right?*
*Mrs.Oswald. Yes.
Mr.Rankin. Now, do you recall any more than you have told us about the time you had the interview with the MVD about your visa—what they said to you and what you said to them?*
*Mrs.Oswald. First of all, Colonel Aksenov asked me why I wanted to go to America, "Is it so bad here that you want to leave?" And I replied that I wanted to go to America with my husband and that I believe that I have that right.
Mr.Rankin. What did they say to that?*
*Mrs.Oswald. Then he said, "You will simply have to wait because you are not the only one who wants to leave. You will have to wait your turn."
Mr.Rankin. Do you recall anything else that was said at that time?*
*Mrs.Oswald. At that time I was pregnant and Colonel Aksenov suggested that may be it would be better for me to wait until the baby came.
Mr.Rankin. What did you say to that?*
*Mrs.Oswald. I told him that I would prefer to leave as soon as possible.
Mr.Rankin. Is that all you remember of the conversation?*
*Mrs.Oswald. Nothing of importance.
Mr.Rankin. Where did this conversation occur?*
*Mrs.Oswald. In the MVD building in Minsk.
Mr.Rankin. And who was present besides you and Colonel Aksenov?*
Mrs.Oswald. At first there were two military men who later left, and they accompanied me or rather they showed me to the room where Colonel Aksenov was. We were the only two in the room.
Mr.Rankin. Now, your husband said that before you both left for the United States, he had an interview with the MVD. Do you recall that?*
Mrs.Oswald. Before we left where?
Mr.Rankin. Before you left the Soviet Union?*
*Mrs.Oswald. I do not know about this.
Mr.Rankin. Do you recall anything like that while you were in Moscow before you left for the United States?*
*Mrs.Oswald. No.
Mr.Rankin. You were never told about anything like that by your husband?*
*Mrs.Oswald. No.
Mr.Rankin. By anyone else?*
Mrs.Oswald. Nobody.
Mr.Rankin. You were not present at any such meeting?*
*Mrs.Oswald. No.
Mr.Rankin. Do you know of any meeting of that kind in Minsk?*
*Mrs.Oswald. He never told me that he had interviews.
Mr.Rankin. He said he quarreled with them trying to expedite the visas, the exit permits, and where was that?*
*Mrs.Oswald. In Minsk.
Mr.Rankin. And did he tell you whom he talked to when he quarreled with them about the exit visas?*
*Mrs.Oswald. I do not know their names, but all the people that were empowered with issuance of the exit permits.
Mr.Rankin. Was that the time that you said he tried to get to see Colonel Aksenov and they wouldn't let him?* **
Mrs.Oswald. It could have happened before we moved because he apparently had a conversation with the Colonel.**
**I remember it was cold.
Mr.Gregory. May I ask Marina—will you mind to read the question?
TheReporter. "Was that the time that you said he tried to get to see Colonel Aksenov and they wouldn't let him?"
Mr.Rankin. I was asking about the meeting with the MVD.
Mr.Gregory. Lee meeting with the MVD in Minsk?
Mr.Rankin. Yes—about the exit visas.
Mr.Gregory. And you wanted to know the year and the month of the year?
Mr.Rankin. No; I was first trying to find out what meeting she was talking about and whether it was the one she referred to later.
Mr.Gregory. When she could not get the audience with the man?
Mr.Rankin. That's right.* **
*Mrs.Oswald. It was approximately in January 1962.
Mr.Rankin. And did he tell you what happened at that meeting?*
*Mrs.Oswald. He did not meet with—he did not get to see Colonel Aksenov.
Mr.Rankin. But he did see someone else in there?
*Mrs.Oswald. Apparently he talked to someone who substituted or was inferior to Colonel Aksenov.
Mr.Rankin. And what did he tell you happened at that time?*
*Mrs.Oswald. Lee told me that when he came to MVD he asked to see Colonel Aksenov, and the people in the office asked him the nature of the business he wanted to discuss with him, and he told them that it was about exit visas, and they told him that he could not see Aksenov, but that they, whoever "they" were, were empowered to act on that question, but he insisted on seeing the colonel, and he did not get to see him.
Mr.Rankin. Then what happened?*
*Mrs.Oswald. Then he came home—then I went to MVD, then he sent me to MVD. I said, "I don't want to go there and he said, "I insist." Then, I was afraid to go there, but I did go, and the Colonel did not eat me up.
Mr.Rankin. Did you talk to the colonel about both your visa and your husband's at that time?*
Mrs.Oswald. The conversation with Colonel Aksenov was to find out why the delay in the issuance of the exit permits.
Mr.Rankin. That's all I have.
SenatorCooper. There has been a good deal of testimony that you and your husband were good friends with the De Mohrenschildt family?*
Mrs.Oswald. Yes.
SenatorCooper. Is it correct that when he came to your house on one occasion that he saw the rifle, your husband's rifle?*
*Mrs.Oswald. I do not know about this. It is possible that I have shown the rifle to them.
SenatorCooper. Do you remember when Mr. De Mohrenschildt said something like this after the Walker incident: "How could you miss it?" or something like that.*
*Mrs.Oswald. De Mohrenschildt—as soon as he opened the door, he said to Lee, "How could you have missed, how could you have missed him?"
SenatorCooper. Do you have any explanation for that?* **
*Mrs.Oswald. I do not know whether Lee told De Mohrenschildt about shooting at Walker, and then Lee looked at me thinking—whether I told De Mohrenschildt about it—I don't know. He even couldn't speak that evening. Lee could not speak that evening. We were on the porch.
SenatorCooper. Did he later ask you if you had told De Mohrenschildt?*
*Mrs.Oswald. He asked me if I told De Mohrenschildt about it and when I said I didn't, he said, "How did he guess it?"
Mr.Gopadze. No; she said, "Maybe you have told him."
*Mrs.Oswald. Then he said, "Maybe you've told him about it", and then he added—he said, "How did he guess it?"
SenatorCooper. De Mohrenschildt said he had lived in Minsk, did he ever talk to you about Minsk?* **
*Mrs.Oswald. Yes; he did say he lived in Minsk when he was a small child.
SenatorCooper. You said also you heard them talking on occasions, that is, you heard Lee Oswald and De Mohrenschildt talking about Russia, did you hear them talking about political problems, political affiliations?*
*Mrs.Oswald. Yes; they discussed politics.
SenatorCooper. Was De Mohrenschildt living in Dallas at the time of the assassination of President Kennedy?*
*Mrs.Oswald. He lived in Haiti.
Mr.Gopadze. Do you know if he was in Haiti?
*Mrs.Oswald. I do not know whether he lived in Dallas at the time of the assassination or whether he lived in Haiti.
SenatorCooper. Could you think back, Mrs. Oswald, is there any fact which comes to your mind which would lead you to believe that any person or persons were associated with your husband in any plan to assassinate President Kennedy, or you thought, Governor Connally?*
*Mrs.Oswald. Of course, I don't know anything about it.
SenatorCooper. But my question was—not whether you knew. I asked you whether you had any facts which would lead you to believe that there was anyone?* **
*Mrs.Oswald. I do not know about this.
SenatorCooper. One other question. Did Lee Oswald ever say to you that he had any kind of connection with the Cuban Government or any of its agents?*
*Mrs.Oswald. He did not tell me.
SenatorCooper. I said one more, and this is the last one, I promise you.
Once you said that when you went to New Orleans together, he said something like this: "I'm lost." If that's correct, what was he talking about? Do you remember that?* **
*Mrs.Oswald. On that particular occasion he sat by the icebox or the frigidaire and he sat there and he had his head in his hands and he said, "I am lost." I believe that that was the result of all the failures of his.
SenatorCooper. Did you feel sympathy for him and love for him in those days?*
Mrs.Oswald. Yes; I felt sorry for him. I knew it was difficult for him with his family. I felt sorry for him.
SenatorCooper. All right.
SenatorRussell. When you testified the second time in Washington, Mrs. Oswald, that you didn't think Mr. De Mohrenschildt was as dangerous as he sounds—that was your personal opinion—what did you mean by that?*
Here it is: "Mr. Mohrenschildt once took us out to the Fords' house. It was at New Year's, I think—Katya Ford's house. It was either Christmas or New Year's. I don't think Mr. De Mohrenschildt is as dangerous as he sounds. That's my personal opinion."
No one had said anything about him being dangerous, so why was that your opinion?** *
Mr.Gregory. Off the record.
SenatorRussell. She understood that.
Mr.Gregory. This goes into the record, of course?
SenatorRussell. Yes, sir.
Mr.Gregory. I think she'shesitated——
SenatorRussell. I think she should explain it.
*Mrs.Oswald. George is such a big mouth.
SenatorRussell. Let's let her testify, if you don't mind?
Mr.Gregory. I'm translating what she said.
SenatorRussell. Oh, is that what she said? I see. I'm sorry. I'm sorry—I didn't hear it.
*Mrs.Oswald. George is such a loud mouth or bigtalker——
SenatorRussell. Big talker—that would be the equivalent, I'm sure.
*Mrs.Oswald. I simply do not believe that—it is myintuition——
Mr.Gopadze. No; that point?
*Mrs.Oswald. It is my opinion that people that talk too much do little.
SenatorRussell. And did he talk too much or talk very loud? I don't know Mr. De Mohrenschildt.** *
Mrs.Oswald. Very loud.
*He jokes all the time and people don't know when he talks sense and when he jokes.
**Sometimes he would say something jokingly and people would think that he's telling the truth.
SenatorRussell. Was that boasting about some imaginary achievement of his?*
*Mrs.Oswald. It's simply his manner of speaking—of talking. It's his character.
SenatorRussell. He didn't talk then about his feats of any kind, about performing any great feats?*
*Mrs.Oswald. No; he never did.
SenatorRussell. It was merely his tone of voice and his manner of expression that made him sound dangerous?**
**Mrs.Oswald. He was boasting about it, but he never would follow through.
Mr.Rankin. You might tell the full story.
Mrs.Oswald. Quite often he would be boasting about something big but he never did follow through.
SenatorRussell. So he did talk about great achievements most of the time?*
**Mrs.Oswald. Just like a fellow who is just a happy go-around man, a happy go-lucky man.
SenatorRussell. If there is nothing further, the Commission thanks you very much for your assistance, and you, Mr. Gregory, and above all, the very remarkable reporter who has been able to stay with us from the beginning.
The Commission will now recess subject to the call of the Chairman or Chief Justice Warren.
Mrs.Oswald. Thank you very much.
SenatorRussell. Thank you.
(Whereupon, at 8 p.m., the President's Commission adjourned.)