The testimony of Earle V. Brown was taken at 4:40 p.m., on April 7, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Street, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Ball. Would you please rise, raise your right hand and be sworn?
Mr.Brown. All right.
Mr.Ball. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Brown. I do.
Mr.Ball. Sit down. State your name and address, please.
Mr.Brown. Earle V. Brown, 618 North Rosemont.
Mr.Ball. What is your occupation?
Mr.Brown. Policeman.
Mr.Ball. With the Dallas Police Department?
Mr.Brown. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. How long have you been a policeman?
Mr.Brown. Fourteen years.
Mr.Ball. Where were you born and what is your education and training?
Mr.Brown. I was born on a farm near Lyons, Nebraska, in 1917, and I completed 12 years of schooling, high school.
Mr.Ball. High school?
Mr.Brown. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Then what did you do?
Mr.Brown. Well, I stayed on the farm until 1939, then I moved to Ohio; Lima, Ohio. I was inducted into the Army and was in there 4 years, 5 months, discharged 1945, August 15, and I was here in Dallas actually when I was discharged and then back to Ohio for about 4 years. Then, let's see, that would be August of 1949, we came back to Dallas and then February 27, 1950, I joined the police force.
Mr.Ball. Now, you are a patrolman, aren't you?
Mr.Brown. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. On November 22, 1964, were you assigned to a certain post on duty?
Mr.Brown. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Where?
Mr.Brown. That would be the railroad overpass over Stemmons Expressway service road.
Mr.Ball. Is that the one that leads off Elm?
Mr.Brown. You mean that crosses Elm?
Mr.Ball. That crosses Elm, yes; the overpass across Elm.
Mr.Brown. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. What does it cross?
Mr.Brown. It's over Stemmons Expressway; in other words, they make that turn off Elm and go up.
Mr.Ball. You know where Elm, the corner of Elm and Houston is?
Mr.Brown. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Then there is a road, the highway continues on to the west, a little south, is that what you call the Stemmons Expressway?
Mr.Brown. There's one there, too, but that overpass is actually a road. Where I was was the railroad overpass.
Mr.Ball. The railroad overpass itself?
Mr.Brown. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. How far were you from the place where the continuation of Elm goes under the overpass?
Mr.Brown. Oh, approximately 100 yards.
Mr.Ball. Let me see if we can get something in the record that will be your position. You were appointed to this particular spot?
Mr.Brown. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Was there another patrolman on the overpass also?
Mr.Brown. Yes, sir; James Lomax.
Mr.Ball. Now, this is the place where the railroad yards run over the highway?
Mr.Brown. Yes.
Mr.Ball. And you are on the Stemmons Freeway end of it?
Mr.Brown. That's right; in other words, Stemmons Freeway and the service road both go under the underpass.
Mr.Ball. What is his name?
Mr.Brown. James Lomax.
Mr.Ball. How far were you from the point where Elm Street goes under the underpass?
Mr.Brown. I would say approximately 100 yards.
Mr.Ball. Approximately 100 yards in what direction?
Mr.Brown. That would be—wouldn't be straight east, but it would be to easterly, kind of off at an angle—I would say about from us about a 20° angle to the right.
Mr.Ball. You would be east or west?
Mr.Brown. We would be to the southwest of that.
Mr.Ball. You would be to the southwest of that?
Mr.Brown. Yes, I would say that's about right.
Mr.Ball. Did you have the corner of Houston and Elm Street in sight from where you were located?
Mr.Brown. Actually, we could see cars moving there, you know, coming and making the turn, but the intersection, that would be about all we probably could see would be cars.
Mr.Ball. Could you see cars going down after they made the turn and going down toward the underpass south?
Mr.Brown. Yes.
Mr.Ball. You could see those?
Mr.Brown. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Did you have any instructions when you were assigned to this location?
Mr.Brown. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. What were they?
Mr.Brown. Not allow anyone on the overpass whatever and walk forward and make both ends—in other words, check both ends of the overpass.
Mr.Ball. That was you and Mr. Lomax?
Mr.Brown. That's right.
Mr.Ball. Was there an E. V. Brown?
Mr.Brown. That's me.
Mr.Ball. That's you, and was there also a Joe Murphy?
Mr.Brown. Joe Murphy is a three-wheeler.
Mr.Ball. Yes; where was he?
Mr.Brown. I don't know, sir; he was, I believe he was on his three-wheeler.
Mr.Ball. On his motor?
Mr.Brown. I believe; I wouldn't say for sure but I don't know.
Mr.Ball. Did you people keep people off the overpass?
Mr.Brown. We made no contact with anyone except one of the railroad detectives come up there and talked to us.
Mr.Ball. Did you keep the underpass free of people?
Mr.Brown. Underneath?
Mr.Ball. No; up above.
Mr.Brown. Up above; yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. What about underneath?
Mr.Brown. Well, that was roadway there; people wouldn't be able to walk.
Mr.Ball. On the top of the overpass you kept that free of people?
Mr.Brown. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did you have the railroad yards in sight?
Mr.Brown. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. They would be what direction from where you were standing?
Mr.Brown. That would be east; that would be east of us.
Mr.Ball. East, maybe a little north?
Mr.Brown. Yes, the whole thing kind of in that general direction, you know.
Mr.Ball. Did you see any people over in the railroad yards?
Mr.Brown. Not that I recall; now they were moving trains in and out.
Mr.Ball. But you did not see people standing?
Mr.Brown. No, sir; sure didn't.
Mr.Ball. Everything was in clear view?
Mr.Brown. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. I withdraw the question. Was there any obstruction of your vision to the railroad yards?
Mr.Brown. Yes.
Mr.Ball. What?
Mr.Brown. Not the direction of the railroad yard, but at ground level we didn't have very good view. Mr. Lomax and I remarked that we didn't have a very good view.
Mr.Ball. Was that because of the moving trains?
Mr.Brown. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did you see the President's motorcade come on to Houston Street from Elm; were you able to see that?
Mr.Brown. Now they came down Main, didn't they, to Houston?
Mr.Ball. Yes.
Mr.Brown. No, sir; actually, the first I noticed the car was when it stopped.
Mr.Ball. Where?
Mr.Brown. After it made the turn and when the shots were fired, it stopped.
Mr.Ball. Did it come to a complete stop?
Mr.Brown. That, I couldn't swear to.
Mr.Ball. It appeared to be slowed down some?
Mr.Brown. Yes; slowed down.
Mr.Ball. Did you hear the shots?
Mr.Brown. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. How many?
Mr.Brown. Three.
Mr.Ball. Where did they seem to come from?
Mr.Brown. Well, they seemed high to me, actually; if you want, would you like me to tell you?
Mr.Ball. Sure, tell it in your own words.
Mr.Brown. Well, down in that river bottom there, there's a whole lot of pigeons this particular day, and they heard the shots before we did because I saw them flying up—must have been 50, 75 of them.
Mr.Ball. Where was the river bottom?
Mr.Brown. You know, actually off to the—between us and the, this overpass you are talking about there's kind of a levee along there. It's really a grade of the railroad, is what it is; that's where they were and then I heard these shots and then I smelled this gun powder.
Mr.Ball. You did?
Mr.Brown. It come on it would be maybe a couple minutes later so—at least it smelled like it to me.
Mr.Ball. What direction did the sound seem to come from?
Mr.Brown. It came it seemed the direction of that building, thatTexas——
Mr.Ball. School Book Depository?
Mr.Brown. School Book Depository.
Mr.Ball. Did you see any pigeons flying around the building?
Mr.Brown. I just don't recall that; no, sir.
Mr.Ball. Which way did you look when you heard the sound?
Mr.Brown. When I first heard that sound I looked up toward that building because actually it seemed to come from there.
Mr.Ball. Where was it you saw the pigeons rise?
Mr.Brown. They must have been down there feeding at that time because they just seemed to all take off.
Mr.Ball. Where were they from where you were standing?
Mr.Brown. From where I was standing they would be about half way between—no, they would be up more toward that other overpass, what they call the triple underpass.
Mr.Ball. The triple underpass?
Mr.Brown. Yes.
Mr.Ball. You were about 100 yards from the triple underpass?
Mr.Brown. Approximately; yes.
Mr.Ball. Was there anybody standing on the triple underpass?
Mr.Brown. On the triple underpass?
Mr.Ball. Yes.
Mr.Brown. Yes, sir; they had at least two officers.
Mr.Ball. Anybody but police officers?
Mr.Brown. Not that I know of. I didn't recall anyone.
Mr.Ball. What did you do after you heard the shots?
Mr.Brown. Well, let me see, by that time the escort as to the motorcycles, we could see them coming, the front part of the motorcade, I don't think they probably realized what happened; they had come on ahead. And then we saw the car coming with the President, and as it passed underneath me I looked right down and I could see this officer in the back; he had this gun and he was swinging it around, looked like a machinegun, and the President was all sprawled out, his foot on the back cushion. Of course, you couldn't conceive anything that happened; of course, we knew something had happened, but we couldn't conceive the fact it did.
Mr.Ball. Did you move out of there in any direction?
Mr.Brown. No, sir; we, well, we checked there; the area, we kept checking that area through there and, of course, there were people all over the place but we didn't allow anybody up on the railroad right-of-way through there.
Mr.Ball. Was there anybody standing on the triple underpass at the point where Elm goes underneath?
Mr.Brown. Uh-uh, I couldn't recall; no one except police officers.
Mr.Ball. More than one?
Mr.Brown. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Did you search any part of the area?
Mr.Brown. We were instructed to stay at our posts, which we did, and later we got instructions to check the area around the Depository, Book Depository Building, and to obtain the license numbers of all those cars parked around there, which we did.
Mr.Ball. Where were any cars parked?
Mr.Brown. Well, there's a parking lot around that building and there was several cars parked all around that building.
Mr.Ball. You took the license numbers?
Mr.Brown. Yes; in fact, I think there must have been four or five officers taking license numbers.
Mr.Ball. How long were you around there?
Mr.Brown. Well, we stayed and then they sent us back to the overpass and we stayed there until, let's see, I don't believe we left there until about 3:30 or 4 in the afternoon, and then we came up to the hall and Mr. Sorrels, I believe talked to us.
Mr.Ball. I think that's all, officer. This will be written up and you can take it, read it, and sign it if you wish, or you can waive your signature, just as you wish. Which do you wish?
Mr.Brown. You mean today?
Mr.Ball. No; it will be a week or so.
Mr.Brown. Oh, yes.
Mr.Ball. Which do you prefer?
Mr.Brown. What preference do I have?
Mr.Ball. Well, it will be written up and you can come in and signit——
Mr.Brown. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Or you can waive signature and you don't need to come in and sign it. It is your option; you can do either way.
Mr.Brown. I will be glad to come in and sign it.
Mr.Ball. She will notify you. Thanks very much.
The testimony of Earle V. Brown was taken at 2:15 p.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Ball. You have been sworn, so we will just continue with your deposition, and your name is Earle V. Brown?
Mr.Brown. Right; E-a-r-l-e (spelling).
Mr.Ball. Mr. Brown, I have had a map made here which I would like to have you inspect here. The railroad overpass is shown—that runs in a north and south direction?
Mr.Brown. Yes.
Mr.Ball. And Stemmons Freeway overpass is shown—that runs north and south, doesn't it?
Mr.Brown. Right.
Mr.Ball. Were you on either one of those overpasses?
Mr.Brown. Either one of those two there?
Mr.Ball. Yes.
Mr.Brown. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Where were you?
Mr.Brown. On this overpass here—this TP Railroad overpass.
Mr.Ball. The overpass that runs in an east and west direction?
Mr.Brown. Right—yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Now, will you take this pen and draw on there your position on the overpass?
Mr.Brown. Well, you see, on this overpass, of course, there are the tracks and then there is a railing and then there is a catwalk on each side and we walked the catwalk, and we would come around on each end and we would walk the tracks and come around there.
Mr.Ball. Where were you when you saw the President's car turn on Houston and Elm Street?
Mr.Brown. I was on the catwalk.
Mr.Ball. Can you mark your position?
Mr.Brown. I would be—approximately in the center. (Instrument marked by the witness, as requested by Counsel Ball.)
Mr.Ball. Have you marked the place where you were?
Mr.Brown. Yes; it would be about the center of that.
Mr.Ball. Is that where you were when you heard the shots?
Mr.Brown. Yes.
Mr.Ball. And did you see anybody out on the railroad overpass?
Mr.Brown. No, sir; I didn't see anybody there.
Mr.Ball. You don't recall seeing anybody that would either be where Elm goes under the overpass or where Main goes under the overpass—you don't recall seeing anybody?
Mr.Brown. No; I don't recall seeing anyone there.
Mr.Ball. You told me yesterday you saw some officers.
Mr.Brown. Well, that would be the police officers—would be the only ones I saw.
Mr.Ball. Do you know who those officers were?
Mr.Brown. No, sir; at the time I did, but I wouldn't know now.
Mr.Ball. Did you see any officer on Stemmons Freeway where we have positioned (1), (2), and (3) on this diagram?
Mr.Brown. No, I didn't.
Mr.Ball. Now, the place where you marked your location—we will mark that as Brown Exhibits—the X marks the position of Brown, is that correct?
Mr.Brown. Yes.
Mr.Ball. That's all. Thank you very much.
Mr.Brown. All right. (Instrument marked by the reporter as "Brown Exhibit A," for identification.)
Mr.Ball. Thank you very much for coming.
Mr.Brown. All right.
The testimony of Royce G. Skelton was taken at 2:45 p.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Ball. Will you raise your right hand and be sworn?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?
Mr.Skelton. I do.
Mr.Ball. Will you state your name, please, for the record?
Mr.Skelton. Royce G. Skelton.
Mr.Ball. What is your business?
Mr.Skelton. I am a mail clerk at the Texas Louisiana Freight Bureau.
Mr.Ball. Where do you work?
Mr.Skelton. At the Texas Louisiana Freight Bureau.
Mr.Ball. Where were you born and where did you come from?
Mr.Skelton. I was born in Henrietta, Tex., May 25, 1940.
Mr.Ball. And where did you go to school?
Mr.Skelton. I attended all grade schools in Wichita Falls and I graduated from Wichita Falls High School.
Mr.Ball. Tell me where you went to school.
Mr.Skelton. Wichita Falls through high school and I attended 1 year at Midwestern University.
Mr.Ball. And when did you go to work for the railroad?
Mr.Skelton. February 1, 1963.
Mr.Ball. What kind of work do you do?
Mr.Skelton. Mail clerk.
Mr.Ball. On November 22, 1963, did you watch the parade, the motorcade of the President?
Mr.Skelton. Yes, sir; I went to the triple overpass about 12:20—I think it was 12:15, or something like that.
Mr.Ball. Whom did you go down there with?
Mr.Skelton. Austin Miller and myself.
Mr.Ball. Where does he work?
Mr.Skelton. He is a mail clerk also in the same company.
Mr.Ball. Where did you stand to watch the parade?
Mr.Skelton. Well, we were directly over Elm Street.
Mr.Ball. Directly over Elm?
Mr.Skelton. Maybe it would be to the left-hand side, if you were on the street.
Mr.Ball. Anybody else there on the overpass?
Mr.Skelton. There were quite a few people up there.
Mr.Ball. Did you know any of them?
Mr.Skelton. Well, I know by sight—I knew the electrician, an old man that's an electrician.
Mr.Ball. Frank Reilly?
Mr.Skelton. Is that his name?
Mr.Ball. The man that was here a moment ago—his name is Reilly.
Mr.Skelton. I know him when I see him.
Mr.Ball.Yes——
Mr.Skelton. And Austin Miller, of course.
Mr.Ball. Did you know Dodd, the employee of the railroad?
Mr.Skelton. No, sir; like I say, I recognized them off and on when I see them around there.
Mr.Ball. Did you see any police officers there?
Mr.Skelton. Yes; this man right here—they say it was him—I don't recall whether it was or not.
Mr.Ball. Who—Mr. Brown?
Mr.Skelton. The one who was in here just a while ago—they say he was the one up there, but I don't know.
Mr.Ball. You didn't recognize him there?
Mr.Skelton. No; I didn't recognize him.
Mr.Ball. In other words, you saw some police officers up there?
Mr.Skelton. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Where were they standing?
Mr.Skelton. There was one standing directly behind me, I think, or in the general vicinity, and there was one on the far side of the triple underpass.
Mr.Ball. By "far side," you mean where?
Mr.Skelton. It would be back on this side.
Mr.Ball. It would be south?
Mr.Skelton. No, sir; that would be the east side—isn't it?
Mr.Ball. Elm runs east and west.
Mr.Skelton. It would be the west side.
Mr.Ball. It would be west?
Mr.Skelton. Yes, sir; and then there was one back over here on Stemmons—I noticed one, at least, over there and one on the railroad overpass on Stemmons.
Mr.Ball. How many police officers were on this overpass, the railroad overpass?
Mr.Skelton. Two, I would say, sir. That's all I saw.
Mr.Ball. And how many men did you see standing right near on the railroad overpass over Elm, just approximately?
Mr.Skelton. Eight, including the officer—eight or nine.
Mr.Ball. Did you see the President's car turn on Elm Street?
Mr.Skelton. Yes, sir; I saw the car carrying the Presidential flag turn.
Mr.Ball. And did you hear something soon after that?
Mr.Skelton. Just about the same time the car straightened up—got around the corner—I heard two shots, but I didn't know at that time they were shots.
Mr.Ball. Where did they seem to come from?
Mr.Skelton. Well, I couldn't tell then, they were still so far from where I was.
Mr.Ball. Did the shots sound like they came from where you were standing?
Mr.Skelton. No, sir; definitely not. It sounded like they were right there—more or less like motorcycle backfire, but I thought that they were these dumbballs that they throw at the cement because I could see the smoke coming up off the cement.
Mr.Ball. You saw some smoke come off of the cement?
Mr.Skelton. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Where did it seem to you that the sound came from, what direction?
Mr.Skelton. Towards the President's car.
Mr.Ball. From the President's car?
Mr.Skelton. Right around the motorcycles and all that—I couldn't distinguish because it was too far away.
Mr.Ball. How long did you stand there?
Mr.Skelton. I stood there from about 12:15 until the time the President was shot.
Mr.Ball. How many shots did you hear?
Mr.Skelton. I think I heard four—I mean—I couldn't be sure.
Mr.Ball. You think you heard four?
Mr.Skelton. Yes.
Mr.Ball. How long did you stay there after you heard the fourth shot?
Mr.Skelton. Not very long—just as soon as the cars sped away and everything was in a big commotion—we ran down to listen to the radio. We couldn't get anything off of that—we heard that the President had been shot and so we went back up there and the police officer asked us if we had seen the assassination and we told him we had. He said he would like to get a statement from us, so he took us over to the sheriff's office.
Mr.Ball. Did you see any pigeons flying or anything like that?
Mr.Skelton. No, sir; I didn't see anything like that—any pigeons at all.
Mr.Ball. I think that's all I have. This will be written up and submitted to you for your signature, if you want to sign it, or you can waive your signature.
Which do you want to do?
Mr.Skelton. I will waive my signature. I am sure it is all right.
Mr.Ball. That is fine. Thank you very much.
Mr.Skelton. There's one thing I could say—you have that other report?
Mr.Ball. What is that?
Mr.Skelton. About when I saw one of the bullets where it hit on the pavement and it hit, the smoke did come from the general vicinity of where you say Oswald was.
Mr.Ball. Wait a minute—let me ask you some questions about that.
Tell me, now, about the smoke—did you see some smoke?
Mr.Skelton. After those two shots, and the car came on down closer to the triple underpass, well, there was another shot—two more shots I heard, but one of them—I saw a bullet, or I guess it was a bullet—I take for granted it was—hit in the left front of the President's car on the cement, and when it did, the smoke carried with it—away from the building.
Mr.Ball. You mean there was some smoke in the building?
Mr.Skelton. No; on the pavement—you know, pavement when it is hit with a hard object it will scatter—it will spread.
Mr.Ball. Which way did it spread?
Mr.Skelton. It spread just right in line, like you said.
Mr.Ball. I haven't said anything—tell me what you think it was?
Mr.Skelton. Like I said—south of us—it would be southwest, you know, in a direct line from the Texas Depository.
Mr.Ball. I see. In other words, the spray seemed to go to the west; is that right?
Mr.Skelton. Yes.
Mr.Ball. All right. Thanks very much.
I'm going to get you to mark one of these maps and show where you were standing. Here is Elm and here is the railroad underpass and pay no attention to the diagrams, but show me about where you were standing.
Mr.Skelton. I was about right there (marked instrument referred to as requested by Counsel Ball).
Mr.Ball. By that "X" we will put the word "Skelton" and that is where you were standing with your friend?
Mr.Skelton. Approximately—yes.
Mr.Ball. Now, did you see any smoke or anything from any place around there?
Mr.Skelton. No, sir; I just stated to your secretary that I heard people say they did, but I didn't.
Mr.Ball. But you did see something light on the street?
Mr.Skelton. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. About where?
Mr.Skelton. A bullet—let's see—this is kind of out of proportion [referring to diagram], and I would say the bullet hit about right here [indicating on diagram].
Mr.Ball. Then, let's mark that as "Skelton (2)" and we will make the firstSkelton number (1) and then Skelton number (2), and this X mark here is where you saw the bullet and which way did the spray go?
Mr.Skelton. Just like it was going there.
Mr.Ball. Mark an arrow showing the direction that you think the spray was going.
Mr.Skelton. (Marks the diagram with arrow.)
Mr.Ball. That's fine, and we will make that as an exhibit Shelton exhibit A and attach it to your deposition.
(Instrument marked by the reporter as Skelton exhibit A for identification)
Mr.Ball. Thank you and that is all.
Mr.Skelton. Thank you.
The testimony of S. M Holland was taken at 2:20 p.m, on April 8, 1964 in the Office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Mr. S M Holland was accompanied by his attorney, Mr. Balford Morrison.
Mr.Stern. Would you rise please and raise your right hand so as to be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony that you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Holland. I do.
Mr.Stern. Sit down, please.
You have recorded Mr. Morrison's presence?
The Reporter. Yes.
Mr.Stern. Mr Holland, you have received a letter from the Commission asking you to come and testify today?
Mr.Holland. Yes.
Mr.Stern. As you know, the Commission is inquiring into all of the facts concerning the assassination of President Kennedy and we want your evidence concerning what you saw at the time of the assassination from the place you were standing. May we have, for the record, your name and residence address?
Mr.Holland. S. M. Holland, 1119 Lucille Street, Irving, Tex.
Mr.Stern. What is your occupation?
Mr.Holland. Signal supervisor for Union Terminal Railroad.
Mr.Stern. How long have you been employed by that organization?
Mr.Holland. Union Terminal since 1938.
Mr.Stern. Now on Friday November 22, will you describe what you did concerning the President's visit and where you were?
Mr.Holland. Well, about 11:00 o'clock, a couple of policemen and a plain clothesman came up on top of the triple underpass, and we had some men working up there, and I knew that they was going to have a parade, and I left my office, and walked up to the underpass to talk to the policemen. And they asked me during the parade if I would come back up there and identify people that was supposed to be on that overpass. That is the railroad people.
Mr.Stern. Where is your office Mr Holland?
Mr.Holland. At the Union Terminal Station.
Mr.Stern. Is that within walking distance of the triple overpass?
Mr.Holland. Yes, it is. About—less than a quarter of a mile, a very short distance.
Mr.Stern. And these policemen that you spoke to, there were 3 altogether?
Mr.Holland. Two—there were 2 city policemen and 1 man in plainclothes. I didn't talk to him. I talked to the city policemen.
Mr.Stern. You don't know what his affiliation was?
Mr.Holland. I know he was a plainclothes detective or FBI agent or something like that, but I don't know, and I told him I would be back and after lunch I would go up there.
Mr.Stern. Approximately what time did you arrive up there?
Mr.Holland. Oh, I arrived up there, I guess, about a quarter until 12, and I would identify each person that came up there that he worked at the Union Terminal, and department so-and-so.
Mr.Stern. Whom did you see there at 11:45 when you returned, from then until 12:30?
Mr.Holland. Well, I would have to try to remember who all was up there then. There was Mr. Reilly and Mr. R. C. Dodd.
Mr.Stern. Mr. Reilly?
Mr.Holland. Reilly.
Mr.Stern. Whowas——
Mr.Holland. R. C. Dodd, and N. H. Potter and Luke Winburn.
Mr.Stern. Luke?
Mr.Holland. Winburn.
Mr.Stern.And——
Mr.Holland. And a fellow by the name of Johnson, he works in the car department.
Mr.Stern. Johnson.
Mr.Holland. And there was another fellow who worked at the car department, tall, blond-headed boy, and I can't remember his name.
Mr.Stern. That makes six people so far. Are these all employeesof——
Mr.Holland. Yes.
Mr.Stern. Of the terminal?
Mr.Holland. Yes, and they were two men, one of them worked for the Katy, and one for the T. & P., that I don't know their names, but I do know that they were railroad people. They were over on business. Working on those business cars, and one of them was a Katy employee, and one was a T. & P. employee.
Mr.Stern. Could you give me their full names?
Mr.Holland. Texas & Pacific, and the Missouri, Kansas, Texas Railroad.
Mr.Stern. You don't know the names of those particular men?
Mr.Holland. No; I don't.
Mr.Stern. Did you see them here today?
Mr.Holland. I know the policemen talked to them and got identification from them.
Mr.Stern. Yes; but they are not, as far as you know, the two gentlemen that you saw sitting in the anteroom to the U.S. attorney's office justbefore——
Mr.Holland. No; neither one of those.
Mr.Stern. Did you recognize either of those two men?
Mr.Holland. One of them is a cabdriver, and the other one is an electrician at Union Terminal. The large fellow is a cabdriver.
Mr.Stern. The electrician, do you know his name?
Mr.Holland. Frank Reilly.
Mr.Stern. There were two other men out there. Perhaps you didn't notice them. I spoke to them after I spoke to you.
Mr.Holland. Well, at the time the parade got started they was, I guess—Davey Cowzert was up there, too.
Mr.Stern. But, just to finish with the two, you didn't recognize either of the two people who were in the anteroom a few moments ago as being people who were on the overpass that day?
Mr.Holland. No.
Mr.Stern. All right.
Mr.Holland. There was two people I did recognize and that was the cabdriver and Mr. Reilly was out there and that policeman, he was up there with me.
Mr.Stern. You recognized the policeman as being the policeman who was on the triple overpass at the time?
Mr.Holland. Yes.
Mr.Stern. Fine. Now, another name just occurred to you of someone else.
Mr.Holland. Cowzert [spelling] C-o-w-z-e-r-t, Cowzert.
Mr.Stern. Is he also an employee?
Mr.Holland. Yes; he is.
Mr.Stern. Were all the people there, as far as you know, at the time the Presidentialmotorcade——
Mr.Holland. Yes.
Mr.Stern. Came into view?
Mr.Holland. One more, if I can remember his name. One that run around the corner of the fence with me. He was right behind me—why in the world—he was one of the first ones around the fence when we run around the fence to what was happening.
Mr.Stern. Before we get to that, how about the police. How many police officers were on the overpass at the time?
Mr.Holland. There were two Dallas Police officers up there at that time.
Mr.Stern. Tell me if this is correct, Mr. Holland. At the time the Presidential motorcade arrived, to the best of your recollection, on the overpass there were two uniformed Dallas Police, and the following employees of the Terminal Co.: Yourself, Mr. Reilly, Mr. Dodd, Mr. Potter, Mr. Winburn, Mr. Johnson, Mr. Cowzert, and perhaps one other man?
Mr.Holland. That's right.
Mr.Stern. So, that would be eight including yourself, plus two employees of the railroad. One of the T. & P. and one of the Katy?
Mr.Holland. That's right. At that time. Now, like I said a while ago, by the time they started there was quite a few come up there, but I can't remember who it was or their names,because——
Mr.Stern. Before the motorcade started?
Mr.Holland. Before the motorcade started.
Mr.Stern. These were people you recognized as employees?
Mr.Holland. Some of them, and some of them I did not recognize, but I think he was asking for credentials.
Mr.Stern. The uniformed policeman?
Mr.Holland. Yes; one on that side, and one on this side to keepthem——
Mr.Stern. Yes; and did you participate in identifying people as being terminal or railroad employees?
Mr.Holland. When they first started arriving, yes; it was my purpose for going up there.
Mr.Stern. So, that it is fair to say that at the time the President's motorcade turned into this area, there was no one on the overpass that you didn't know either as Terminal Co. employees, or railroad employees, or as a policeman?
Mr.Holland. Wouldn't be fair to say that, because there was quite a few came up there right in the last moments.
Mr.Stern. There were? Tell us about that.
Mr.Holland. That I couldn't recognize. There wasn't too many people up there, but there were a few that came up there the last few minutes, but the policemen were questioning them and getting their identification,and——
Mr.Stern. Is this just about the time of the motorcade?
Mr.Holland. Just about the time, or just prior to it, because there was a few up there that I didn't—that I didn't recognize myself.
Mr.Stern. Had they been, as far as you could tell, checked by the police?
Mr.Holland. He was checking them as they came on top of the underpass.
Mr.Stern. Did it seem to you that everybody up there had been checked by this policeman for identification?
Mr.Holland. I think everyone was checked by some person.
Mr.Stern. Yes. Can you estimate the number of people that were on the overpass immediately as the motorcade came into view?
Mr.Holland. Well, I would estimate that there was between 14 to 18 people.
Mr.Stern. Now, where was the motorcade when you first saw it?
Mr.Holland. Turned off the Main Street—in front of the county jail.
Mr.Stern. Turning right off of Main onto Houston?
Mr.Holland. It was coming down Main and turned off of Main onto Houston.
Mr.Stern. At that time will you show me on this drawing where you were and just make a mark and put the No. 1 next to that mark. That is whereyou were at that time? Roughly in the middle of the overpass over Elm Street?
Mr.Holland. That's right.
Mr.Stern. And where, in relation to the concrete fencethat——
Mr.Holland. Picket fence or concrete?
Mr.Stern. No; the concrete.
Mr.Holland. Oh, the concrete banister?
Mr.Stern. The concrete banister. Were you right at the banister?
Mr.Holland. I was; would you like to see the exact location?
Mr.Stern. Yes.
Mr.Holland. This is my son standing in the exact location I was in [indicating].
Mr.Stern. Off the record a moment.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr.Stern. Back on the record. Well, then, we'll mark this as Exhibit B, reserving Exhibit A for this drawing, and Exhibit B is a photograph you took on Saturday, November 23, of your son standing in the position at the banister of the triple overpass where you were at the time the motorcade came into view.
Mr.Holland. That's right.
Mr.Stern. Fine. That is quite a good picture. At that time, can you indicate, to the best of your knowledge where other persons were standing on the overpass, and particularly in relationship to the two police officers who were on the overpass?
Mr.Holland. Well, as well as I remember, one police officer was standing right behind me, or pretty close behind me.
Mr.Stern. Put a "2" where you believe he was standing.
Mr.Holland. He was standing in close enough so that he could see, but he could also see the people, and the other policeman, I think, unless he left immediately before this happened—see, when they turned there. I didn't turn around and look back any more, but the last time I saw this policeman he was standing over here on this side, about [indicating].
Mr.Stern. Standing almost directly behind you?
Mr.Holland. Yes.
Mr.Stern. But, on the other side of the overpass, facing west?
Mr.Holland. Yes; all this way, across the tracks. See, these are all railroad tracks, and he was standing over here on this side immediately before this motorcade turned this. Now, after they turned, I don't know, but—because I was watching them.
Mr.Stern. Yes.
Would you put a "3" where you believe he was standing and can you indicate on there where you believe the other 12 to 15 or 16 people were who were on the overpass at this time.
Mr.Holland.Well——
Mr.Stern. Were they all standing in one group?
Mr.Holland. There was a pretty close group between this column here, and this place right in there. In other words, if I can—had a shot of it, we could find that pretty close. I don't know that I have one.
Mr.Stern. What you have indicated on the drawing is on the part of the overpass from one side of Elm Street to the other.
Mr.Holland. Yes; this is one side of Elm Street, and this would be the other. If you would get over here there would be a banister or something in your way, and this is grass out here, and you couldn't get to get too good a view, and most of the people was from this right in here, over to right in here [indicating].
Mr.Stern. All right.Now——
Mr.Holland. And this bench runs right along similar to that, up here to this [indicating].
Mr.Stern. That is a wooden picket fence that you are describing that runs from the end of the concrete banister?
Mr.Holland. That's right.
Mr.Stern. Over to alittle——
Mr.Holland. Little house there.
Mr.Stern.Little——
Mr.Holland. What do they call that thing?
Mr.Morrison. I don't know.
Mr.Stern. Little pavilion? Little concrete pavilion?
Mr.Holland. Yes.
Mr.Stern. Now, what did you observe from that point on, Mr. Holland?
Mr.Holland. Well, I observed the motorcade when it turned off of Main Street onto Houston Street and back on Elm Street. There was two young ladies right across from this sign, which would be, I judge—would say they were standing about here [indicating].
Mr.Stern. Put No. 4 there, please. Fine.
Mr.Holland. And the motorcade was coming down in this fashion, and the President was waving to the people on this side [indicating].
Mr.Stern. That is the north side of Elm Street?
Mr.Holland. Yes; on the north side.
Mr.Stern. All right.
Mr.Holland. And she was looking in this direction [indicating].
Mr.Stern. "She," is Mrs. Kennedy?
Mr.Holland. His wife. And about thattime——
Mr.Stern. Was looking in a southern direction?
Mr.Holland. In the southern direction.
Mr.Stern. South side of Elm Street?
Mr.Holland. And about that time he went over like that [indicating], and put his hand up, and she was still looking off, as well as I could tell.
Mr.Stern. Now, when you say, "he went like that," you leaned forward and raised your right hand?
Mr.Holland. Pulled forward and hand just stood like that momentarily.
Mr.Stern. With his right hand?
Mr.Holland. His right hand; and that was the first report that I heard.
Mr.Stern. What did it sound like?
Mr.Holland. Well, it was pretty loud, and naturally, underneath this underpass here it would be a little louder, the concussion from underneath it, it was a pretty loud report, and the car traveled a few yards, and Governor Connally turned in this fashion, like that [indicating] with his hand out, and another report.
Mr.Stern. With his right hand out?
Mr.Holland. Turning to his right.
Mr.Stern. To his right?
Mr.Holland. And another report rang out and he slumped down in his seat, and about that time Mrs. Kennedy was looking at these girls over here [indicating]. The girls standing—now one of them was taking a picture, and the other one was just standing there, and she turned around facing the President and Governor Connally. In other words, she realized what was happening, I guess.
Now, I mean, that was apparently that—she turned back around, and by the time she could get turned around he was hit again along in—I'd say along in here [indicating].
Mr.Stern. How do you know that? Did you observe that?
Mr.Holland. I observed it. It knocked him completely down on the floor. Over, just slumped completely over. Thatsecond——
Mr.Stern. Did you hear a third report?
Mr.Holland. I heard a third report and I counted four shots and about the same time all this was happening, and in this group of trees—[indicating].
Mr.Stern. Now, you are indicating trees on the north side of Elm Street?
Mr.Holland. These trees right along here [indicating].
Mr.Stern. Let's mark this Exhibit C and draw a circle around the trees you are referring to.
Mr.Holland. Right in there. (Indicating.)
There was a shot, a report, I don't know whether it was a shot. I can't say that. And a puff of smoke came out about 6 or 8 feet above the groundright out from under those trees. And at just about this location from where I was standing you could see that puff of smoke, like someone had thrown a firecracker, or something out, and that is just about the way it sounded. It wasn't as loud as the previous reports or shots.
Mr.Stern. What number would that have been inthe——
Mr.Holland. Well, that would—they were so close together.
Mr.Stern. The second and third or the third and fourth?
Mr.Holland. The third and fourth. The third and the fourth.
Mr.Stern. So, that it might have been the third or the fourth?
Mr.Holland. It could have been the third or fourth, but there were definitely four reports.
Mr.Stern. You have no doubt about that?
Mr.Holland. I have no doubt about it. I have no doubt about seeing that puff of smoke come out from under those trees either.
Mr.Stern. Mr. Holland, do you recall making a statement to an agent of of the FBI several days after?
Mr.Holland. I made a statement that afternoon in Sheriff Bill Decker's office, and then the Sunday or the Sunday following the Friday, there were two FBI men out at my house at the time that Oswald was shot.
Mr.Stern. Did you tell them that you heard distinctly four shots at that time?
Mr.Holland. Yes.
Mr.Stern. You were certain then?
Mr.Holland. I was certain then and I—in that statement I believe thatI——
Mr.Stern. Well, the FBI report that I have said that you heard either three or four shots fired together, and I gather the impression of the agent was that you were uncertain whether it was three or four.
Mr.Holland. At the time I made that statement, of course, I was pretty well shook up, but I told the people at the sheriff's office, whoever took the statement, that I believed there was four shots, because they were so close together, and I have also told those two, four, six Federal men that have been out there that I definitely saw the puff of smoke and heard the report from under those trees.
Mr.Stern. Did you realize that these were shots then?
Mr.Holland. Yes; I think I realized what was happening out there.
Mr.Stern. You did?
Mr.Holland. When Governor Connally was knocked down in the seat.
Mr.Stern. What did you then do?