Mr.Ball. Had you ever seen Lee Oswald?
Mr.Molina. I had seen him in the building, yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did you ever speak to him?
Mr.Molina. No; I never spoke to him.
Mr.Ball. Did you see him at all on November 22d?
Mr.Molina. I never did see him.
Mr.Ball. Did you see any strangers in the building on that day November 22d?
Mr.Molina. No; like I stated before, I came in at—to work at 7 in the morning because I had a key and I was on the second floor all the time, never did leave except maybe to go to the restroom, something like that. Then I ate my lunch, took my lunch and ate it and went downstairs about 12:15.
Mr.Ball. Okay, thanks very much, Mr. Molina. This will be written up for your signature if you wish; you can come in and sign it or you can waiveyour signature, whichever you wish. If you wish to sign it, this young lady will notify you when it is typed and you can come in, read it, and sign it.
Mr.Molina. I just wanted to state in the record that I want to deny any accusations if there is any doubt in anybody's mind.
Mr.Ball. No; there is nobody I ever heard has accused you of anything.
Mr.Molina. I know there's a fella that I talk with that belongs to the or had worked with the FBI that knows my position in this thing.
Mr.Ball. I never heard anybody accuse you of any wrongdoing in connection with this matter.
Mr.Molina. In fact, Bill Lowery worked with the FBI.
Mr.Ball. You don't have to worry about that; no one is accusing you of anything.
Mr.Molina. Except the local people here.
Mr.Ball. Do you want to sign it or do you want to waive your signature; how do you feel about it? It's your option; you can do either way.
Mr.Molina. Well, I would like to.
Mr.Ball. See it and sign it?
Mr.Molina. See it and sign it.
Mr.Ball. She will notify you then. She will tell you when to come in.
Mr.Molina. Thanks very much.
The testimony of Jack Edwin Dougherty was taken at 10:50 a.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Ball. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Dougherty. I do.
Mr.Ball. Will you state your name and address for the record?
Mr.Dougherty. Jack Edwin Dougherty.
Mr.Ball. And your address?
Mr.Dougherty. 1827 South Marsalis.
Mr.Ball. How old are you?
Mr.Dougherty. Forty.
Mr.Ball. Where were you born?
Mr.Dougherty. Here in Dallas.
Mr.Ball. Where did you go to school?
Mr.Dougherty. Sunset High School.
Mr.Ball. You went through Sunset High School?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. What year did you get out of high school? About?
Mr.Dougherty. Oh, 1937.
Mr.Ball. 1937?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes.
Mr.Ball. What kind of work did you do after that?
Mr.Dougherty. Well, of course, a year or so, you might say—just work in grocery stores until I was 19 and volunteered for the Armed Services in October—October 24, 1942.
Mr.Ball. How long were you in the service?
Mr.Dougherty. 2 years, 1 month, 17 days, to be exact.
Mr.Ball. And you were discharged from the Service, then, after the War, was it?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. What did you do during the service—during your period in the service?
Mr.Dougherty. Well, you might say just about a little bit of everything, from guard dutyto——
Mr.Ball. Did you have any active service?
Mr.Dougherty. Well, no—I volunteered for active service, but they said you couldn't very well volunteer—you have to be drafted, so they said, they told me at the time.
Mr.Ball. Did you ever leave the United States during the War?
Mr.Dougherty. Oh, yes.
Mr.Ball. Where did you go?
Mr.Dougherty. Well, I was stationed, oh, for about a year up in Indiana up there—Seymour, Ind.
Mr.Ball. Then where did you go from there in the service?
Mr.Dougherty. Well, I stayed there until I got discharged.
Mr.Ball. You didn't ever go outside the country to Europe?
Mr.Dougherty. Oh, no.
Mr.Ball. Or to the South Seas?
Mr.Dougherty. No.
Mr.Ball. You stayed in this country all the time?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Now, did you ever have any difficulty with your speech?
Mr.Dougherty. No.
Mr.Ball. You never had any?
Mr.Dougherty. No.
Mr.Ball. Did you ever have any difficulty in the Army with any medical treatment or anything of that sort?
Mr.Dougherty. No.
Mr.Ball. None at all?
Mr.Dougherty. No.
Mr.Ball. What did you do after you got out of the Army?
Mr.Dougherty. Well, jobs were pretty scarce about the time I got out of the service, so I just went from place to place and applied and put my application in, so I started over here at the Texas School Book Depository and put my application in there and I got it through the Suburban Employment Agency, and I been working there ever since.
Mr.Ball. And that was when—in 1940, was it, you started to work at the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr.Dougherty. September 17, 1940.
Mr.Ball. 1940 what?
Mr.Dougherty. Let's see, I have been with them 11 years—that wouldbe——
Mr.Ball. That would be 1952, wouldn't it?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes—that's 1952.
Mr.Ball. 1952?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes; that's right, to be exact.
Mr.Ball. What did you do between the time you got out of the service and 1952?
Mr.Dougherty. Well, I didn't do anything to be frank with you.
Mr.Ball. You didn't?
Mr.Dougherty. No.
Mr.Ball. You didn't work?
Mr.Dougherty. Oh, no.
Mr.Ball. You stayed at home?
Mr.Dougherty. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did you live with your father and mother?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Have you ever been married?
Mr.Dougherty. No.
Mr.Ball. And you still live with your father and mother?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Now, what kind of work have you been doing at the Texas School Book Depository in the last few years?
Mr.Dougherty. Oh—shipping clerk.
Mr.Ball. And what kind of work is that?
Mr.Dougherty. Well, that's when they bring the orders from on the second floor, and in other words, you fill them from the—they are orders, I guess you would call them orders, to fill from there, and outside of doing little odd jobs besides that—that's it.
Mr.Ball. Did you know a fellow named Lee Harvey Oswald that worked at the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr.Dougherty. Well, I'll be frank with you, Mr. Ball, I don't believe nobody knew him too well. You might say he wouldn't have too much to say to anybody. He just stayed all to hisself, and I'll be frank with you, I just flat didn't know him.
Mr.Ball. Now, on November 22, 1963, that's the day the President was shot?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. What time did you go to work?
Mr.Dougherty. Well, I got there—it was after 7 o'clock in the morning.
Mr.Ball. Do you usually get there in the morning at 7 o'clock?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Why do you get there at 7 instead of 8, when the rest of the men get there?
Mr.Dougherty. Well, you might say, I have a little—extra chores to do.
Mr.Ball. You do that—you get there at 7 all the time, don't you?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes, I've been doing it for 11 years.
Mr.Ball. That's what Mr. Truly told me, that you get there real early.
Mr.Dougherty. Yes.
Mr.Ball. And you did get there about 7 that morning?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Let's see, Mr. Dougherty, you said that you have some extra chores—what are those extra chores?
Mr.Dougherty. I have to see to it that the water system is pumped up. In other words, the air pressure is up to where—up to 40 pounds so that if it isn't pumped up, the alarm goes off, and the ADT runs that alarm system, and we immediately call Mr. Truly and of course they call me.
Mr.Ball. What is the ADT?
Mr.Dougherty. That's that—I don't know too much about it—it has something to do with the alarm system they have got down there.
Mr.Ball. You mean the pressure, do you?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Is that a fire-alarm system?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes—you could call it that.
Mr.Ball. Now, what else do you do there early in the morning?
Mr.Dougherty. Well, let's see, I have to check and see that there is no leaks in the building, that the pipes are not leaking somewhere.
Mr.Ball. Anything else you do?
Mr.Dougherty. No; I believe that just about covers it.
Mr.Ball. What time do you usually go to lunch?
Mr.Dougherty. Well, usually about 12 o'clock or 12 noon.
Mr.Ball. Do you carry your lunch most of the time from home?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes.
Mr.Ball. And where do you usually eat your lunch?
Mr.Dougherty. Well, they have got what they call a domino room in there and I usually eat it in there.
Mr.Ball. You usually eat your lunch in the domino room?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes.
Mr.Ball. And how long do you take for lunch?
Mr.Dougherty. Well, from 12 to 12:45.
Mr.Ball. Forty-five minutes?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Do you always take a full hour?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes; I usually do.
Mr.Ball. Now, do you remember the day of November 22, 1963; you do, don't you?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes.
Mr.Ball. The day that the President was shot?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Do you remember what time you went to work that day?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes—let's see—it was 12:30.
Mr.Ball. What time did you go to work that morning?
Mr.Dougherty. Well, that particular morning—let's see, we didn't go back.
Mr.Ball. No; I mean, what time did you go to work the first thing in the morning?
Mr.Dougherty. It was 8 o'clock when we were actually started to work.
Mr.Ball. What time did you get to the building?
Mr.Dougherty. At a quarter to 7.
Mr.Ball. At a quarter to 7?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes.
Mr.Ball. You told the FBI officers that you got there about 7 o'clock.
Mr.Dougherty. Well, I mean, inside the building.
Mr.Ball. Inside the building?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes—when I got inside the building it was 7 o'clock.
Mr.Ball. You parked your car?
Mr.Dougherty. I don't have a car—I have to ride the bus.
Mr.Ball. Did you see Oswald come to work that morning?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes—when he first come into the door.
Mr.Ball. When he came in the door?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Did you see him come in the door?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes; I saw him when he first come in the door—yes.
Mr.Ball. Did he have anything in his hands or arms?
Mr.Dougherty. Well, not that I could see of.
Mr.Ball. About what time of day was that?
Mr.Dougherty. That was 8 o'clock.
Mr.Ball. That was about 8 o'clock?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. What door did he come in?
Mr.Dougherty. Well, he came in the back door.
Mr.Ball. Where were you then?
Mr.Dougherty. I was—sitting on top of the wrapping table.
Mr.Ball. Now, do you remember that you gave a statement to the Federal Bureau of Investigation and to a man by the name of Ellington, or a Mr. Anderton, the day after—the 23d of November?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes—I talked to so many of them—it is kind of hard to remember.
Mr.Ball. And there is a statement that they took when they talked to you and in it you said, "I recall vaguely, having seen Lee Oswald, when he came to work at about 8 a.m. today."
Mr.Dougherty. I did—that morning.
Mr.Ball. That seems to be dated the 22d day of November 1963.
Mr.Dougherty. That's right.
Mr.Ball. The full statement is, "I am employed by the Texas School Book Depository, 411 Elm Street, Dallas, as an order filler, and reside at 1827 South Marsalis Street, Dallas, Tex."
Did you tell them that?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. "I started to work today, 11-22-63, at about 7 a.m. o'clock."
Did you tell them that?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes.
Mr.Ball. The statement says, "I recall vaguely having seen Lee Oswald, when he came to work at about 8 a.m. today."
Mr.Dougherty. That's right.
Mr.Ball. Now, is that a very definite impression that you saw him that morning when he came to work?
Mr.Dougherty. Well, oh—it's like this—I'll try to explain it to you this way—you see, I was sitting on the wrapping table and when he came in the door,I just caught him out of the corner of my eye—that's the reason why I said it that way.
Mr.Ball. Did he come in with anybody?
Mr.Dougherty. No.
Mr.Ball. He was alone?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes; he was alone.
Mr.Ball. Do you recall him having anything in his hand?
Mr.Dougherty. Well, I didn't see anything, if he did.
Mr.Ball. Did you pay enough attention to him, you think, that you would remember whether he did or didn't?
Mr.Dougherty. Well, I believe I can—yes, sir—I'll put it this way; I didn't see anything in his hands at the time.
Mr.Ball. In other words, your memory is definite on that, is it?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. In other words, you would say positively he had nothing in his hands?
Mr.Dougherty. I would say that—yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Or, are you guessing?
Mr.Dougherty. I don't think so.
Mr.Ball. You saw him come in the door?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes.
Mr.Ball. The back door on the first floor?
Mr.Dougherty. It was in the back door.
Mr.Ball. Now, that back door is the door that opens onto what? That back door would be the first floor?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes.
Mr.Ball. And it opens where?
Mr.Dougherty. On the back dock—on the back dock side over there.
Mr.Ball. That would be what direction from the first floor—what wall of the first floor—north?
Mr.Dougherty. Well, let's see, to be frank with you—I don't know which one it would be.
Mr.Ball. Is there only one back door?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes; there is only one back door.
Mr.Ball. Did you see him again that morning?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes; just one more time.
Mr.Ball. Where was that?
Mr.Dougherty. That was on the sixth floor.
Mr.Ball. On the sixth floor?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes.
Mr.Ball. About what time of day?
Mr.Dougherty. It was about 11 o'clock—that was the last time I saw him.
Mr.Ball. What was he doing up there?
Mr.Dougherty. Well, as far as I could tell, he was getting some stock—as far as I could tell.
Mr.Ball. What were you doing there?
Mr.Dougherty. I was getting some stock also.
Mr.Ball. And were there some other workmen up there at the time?
Mr.Dougherty. Not that I know of.
Mr.Ball. Well, do you remember Shelley, Dan Arce, Bonnie Williams, Bill Lovelady, and Charlie Givens who were working up there that morning—laying floor on the sixth floor?
Mr.Dougherty. Oh, yes; they were laying floor—yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And were they there at the time you were there?
Mr.Dougherty. Oh, yes, sir; they were there—yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Is that the same time you saw Oswald?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes, sir; just about that time.
Mr.Ball. And how long were you on the sixth floor?
Mr.Dougherty. Well, just long enough to get some stock.
Mr.Ball. Where did you go then?
Mr.Dougherty. I went to the fifth floor.
Mr.Ball. What did you do then?
Mr.Dougherty. Well, I went to the fifth floor to get some stock also on the fifth floor.
Mr.Ball. Then what did you do?
Mr.Dougherty. Then, just about that time—I thought Iheard——
Mr.Ball. Wait a minute—did you go to lunch?
Mr.Dougherty. Well, I went back downstairs to eat lunch—yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. What time?
Mr.Dougherty. Oh, it was 12 o'clock.
Mr.Ball. When you talked to the FBI men, I've got a statement here dated the 19th of December 1963, a statement from Special Agent William O. Johnson, and he reports that you told him that you saw Lee Harvey Oswald at approximately 8 a.m. when he, Oswald, arrived.
Mr.Dougherty. That's right.
Mr.Ball. That you saw Oswald again at approximately 11 a.m. on the sixth floor?
Mr.Dougherty. That's right.
Mr.Ball. But you didn't see him again after that, is that your testimony?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Is that the truth?
Mr.Dougherty. That's right.
Mr.Ball. And it also says, this report from Mr. Johnson, states that you told him that just prior to 12 noon you and five other men were working on the sixth floor. Were you?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes; we were working on the sixth floor.
Mr.Ball. What were you doing?
Mr.Dougherty. Well, I was getting some stock off of the sixth floor.
Mr.Ball. You weren't helping the men lay floor?
Mr.Dougherty. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did you go down to lunch?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes.
Mr.Ball. To what floor?
Mr.Dougherty. The first floor.
Mr.Ball. How did you get down there?
Mr.Dougherty. Well—used the elevator.
Mr.Ball. Did you go down alone or with someone?
Mr.Dougherty. I went down alone.
Mr.Ball. Where did you eat your lunch?
Mr.Dougherty. In the domino room.
Mr.Ball. Now, what time did you go back to work?
Mr.Dougherty. Oh, at 12:30.
Mr.Ball. Did you know that the President was going to pass in a motorcade that noon?
Mr.Dougherty. Well, they said something about it.
Mr.Ball. Did you intend to go out and watch him?
Mr.Dougherty. Well, I would have loved to have went out and watched him but the steps were so crowded—there was no way in the world I could get out there.
Mr.Ball. Did you take a look at it—did you go out and take a look at it, or didn't you?
Mr.Dougherty. Well—no, sir.
Mr.Ball. Now, you were on the first floor in the domino room when you finished your lunch, didn't you?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And did you stay there any length of time after you finished your lunch?
Mr.Dougherty. No, sir—just a short length of time.
Mr.Ball. Then what did you do?
Mr.Dougherty. Well, then, I went back to work.
Mr.Ball. And where did you go to work?
Mr.Dougherty. Let me see—oh, up to the sixth floor.
Mr.Ball. Did you go to the sixth floor?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. About what time?
Mr.Dougherty. Oh, it was about 12:40—it was about 12:40.
Mr.Ball. Had you heard any shots before that?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes—I heard one—it sounded like a backfire.
Mr.Ball. Where were you when you heard that shot?
Mr.Dougherty. I was on the fifth floor.
Mr.Ball. You were on the fifth floor?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Now, when you left your lunch, did you go to the fifth floor or the sixth floor to go back to work?
Mr.Dougherty. I went on the fifth floor when I was getting ready to go down to eat lunch.
Mr.Ball. Yes; and then what happened?
Mr.Dougherty. Well, at that time—I was about 10 feetaway——
Mr.Ball. Wait a minute—did you hear the shots before or after you had your lunch?
Mr.Dougherty. Before—before I ate my lunch.
Mr.Ball. You heard shots before you ate your lunch?
Mr.Dougherty. Let's see—yes, I believe I did.
Mr.Ball. Well, now, you remember having your lunch, do you?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Do you remember after you had your lunch, you went back to work that day?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes.
Mr.Ball. When you talked on the day this accident happened, on the 22d of November 1963, in a statement made to the Federal Bureau of Investigation and, Mr. Dougherty, you told them you went down to the first floor to eat your lunch?
Mr.Dougherty. That's right.
Mr.Ball. And that you went back to work?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And you told him on the 19th day of December, Mr. Johnson, that you went back to work on the sixth floor, and as soon as you arrived on the sixth floor, you went down to the fifth floor to get some stock?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes, sir; that's right.
Mr.Ball. And while you were on the fifth floor, you heard a loud noise?
Mr.Dougherty. That's right—it sounded like a car backfiring.
Mr.Ball. And did you hear more than one loud explosion or noise?
Mr.Dougherty. No; that was the only one I heard.
Mr.Ball. You only heard one?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes.
Mr.Ball. And where did it sound like it came from?
Mr.Dougherty. It sounded like it came from overhead somewhere.
Mr.Ball. From overhead?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes.
Mr.Ball. How did you get to the fifth floor?
Mr.Dougherty. Elevator.
Mr.Ball. You were on the fifth floor when you heard this, were you?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Which elevator did you take?
Mr.Dougherty. Well, you see, there's one on this side and one on this side—the one on this side is the one I took.
Mr.Ball. Well, now, "The one on this side and the one on this side," doesn't mean much when it's written down.
Mr.Dougherty. Well, I know it.
Mr.Ball. Can you tell me whether it was the east side or the west side elevator?
Mr.Dougherty. East side.
Mr.Ball. Is it the one that you punch a button on?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Or the one that you use a control on?
Mr.Dougherty. It's the one you push a button on.
Mr.Ball. The one you push a button on?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. I believe that is the west side, isn't it?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes, I believe it is.
Mr.Ball. Now, that's the one you took up?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Where did you take that—to what floor?
Mr.Dougherty. I took it up to the sixth floor.
Mr.Ball. Then what did you do?
Mr.Dougherty. Well, when I got through getting stock off of the sixth floor, I came back down to the fifth floor.
Mr.Ball. What did you do on the fifth floor?
Mr.Dougherty. Well, I got some stock.
Mr.Ball. Then what happened then?
Mr.Dougherty. Well, then immediately I heard a loud noise—it sounded like a car backfiring, and I came back down to the first floor, and I asked Eddie Piper, I said, "Piper, what was that?" I says, "Has the President been shot?" He said, "Yes."
Mr.Ball. You didn't say—did you say, "Has the President been shot?"—you told the FBI agent that you went down to the first floor and you saw a man named Eddie Piper and asked him if he heard a loud noise.
Mr.Dougherty. I asked him that too.
Mr.Ball. And Piper said he had heard three loud noises and told you that somebody had just shot the President; is that right?
Mr.Dougherty. That's right.
Mr.Ball. Who mentioned the fact that the President had been shot first—you or Eddie Piper?
Mr.Dougherty. Eddie Piper.
Mr.Ball. Did you say anything to Piper about the President being shot?
Mr.Dougherty. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. When you talked to Eddie Piper, did you know that the President had been shot?
Mr.Dougherty. No, sir; I didn't know that at the time.
Mr.Ball. When is the first time you heard that the President had been shot?
Mr.Dougherty. When Eddie told me that.
Mr.Ball. Eddie told you that?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes.
Mr.Ball. You told Mr. Johnson of the Federal Bureau of Investigation that when you were on the fifth floor, you heard a loud noise and it appeared to have come from within the building, but you couldn't tell where—you told him that on the 19th; did you tell him that?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. On the day that this happened, on the 22d of November, you told the FBI agents Ellington and Anderton that you heard "a loud explosion which sounded like a rifle shot coming from the next floor above me."
Now, did you tell them that it sounded like a rifle shot, coming from the next floor above you, or didn't you?
Mr.Dougherty. Well; I believe I told them it sounded like a car backfiring.
Mr.Ball. Well, did you tell them it sounded like it was from the floor above you, or didn't you tell them that?
Mr.Dougherty. No.
Mr.Ball. You did not tell them that?
Mr.Dougherty. No.
Mr.Ball. Did it sound like it came from the floor above you?
Mr.Dougherty. Well, at the time it did—yes.
Mr.Ball. Tell me this—when you heard that explosion or whatever it was—that loud noise, where were you on the fifth floor—tell me exactly where you were?
Mr.Dougherty. Well, I was about 10 feet from the west elevator—the west side of the elevator.
Mr.Ball. That's the elevator that uses the push button; is that right?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes.
Mr.Ball. And what were you doing?
Mr.Dougherty. I was getting some stock.
Mr.Ball. And what did you do then?
Mr.Dougherty. Well, I came on back downstairs.
Mr.Ball. How did you come downstairs?
Mr.Dougherty. I used that push button elevator on the west side.
Mr.Ball. Did you hear Mr. Truly yell anything up the elevator shaft?
Mr.Dougherty. I didn't hear anybody yell.
Mr.Ball. Or, did you see Mr. Truly?
Mr.Dougherty. Well, when the FBI men—I imagine it was who it was—he showed me his credentials, but he asked me who the manager was, and I told him, "Mr. Truly." He told me to go find him. Well, I didn't know where he was so I started from the first floor and just started looking for him, and by the time I got to the sixth floor, they had found a gun and shells.
Mr.Ball. When you went up to the sixth floor, it was after they found the shotgun and shells?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes, sir; and I found out later he was on the fourth floor, which I didn't find.
Mr.Ball. Did you ever see a gun around there?
Mr.Dougherty. No, sir; I sure didn't.
Mr.Ball. Did you ever see anybody with a gun in the place?
Mr.Dougherty. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did you see any strangers in the building that day?
Mr.Dougherty. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did you ever see Lee Oswald carry any sort of large package?
Mr.Dougherty. Well, I didn't, but some of the fellows said they did.
Mr.Ball. Who said that?
Mr.Dougherty. Well, Bill Shelley, he told me that he thought he saw him carrying a fairly good-sized package.
Mr.Ball. When did Shelley tell you that?
Mr.Dougherty. Well, it was—the day after it happened.
Mr.Ball. Are you sure you were on the fifth floor when you heard the shots?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes, I'm positive.
Mr.Ball. Did you see any other employee on the fifth floor?
Mr.Dougherty. No, sir; I didn't see nobody—there wasn't nobody on the fifth floor at all—it was just myself.
Mr.Ball. You told me that just before you heard the shots, you had been on the sixth floor?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes.
Mr.Ball. And then you went down to the fifth floor?
Mr.Dougherty. That's right.
Mr.Ball. Did you see anybody on the sixth floor when you were there, before you went to the fifth floor?
Mr.Dougherty. Oh, yes; I did.
Mr.Ball. Who?
Mr.Dougherty. Well, there was Bill Shelley, BillyLovelady——
Mr.Ball. That was in the morning, wasn't it?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes.
Mr.Ball. That wasn't after lunch, was it?
Mr.Dougherty. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. After lunch, did you ever see them on the sixth floor?
Mr.Dougherty. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr.Ball. Now, did you hear this shot either before or after lunch?
Mr.Dougherty. It was before lunch—it was before lunch.
Mr.Ball. You think it was before lunch you heard the shot?
Mr.Dougherty. I believe it was—yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And you were alone, were you?
Mr.Dougherty. Yes.
Mr.Ball. That's all I have to ask you, and this will be written up and if you would like to come down and read it and sign it, you can, or you can waive your signature.
What do you want to do?
Mr.Dougherty. Well, whatever you want to do—it doesn't make any difference.
Mr.Ball. Would you like to come down and read it over and sign it?
Mr.Dougherty. Well, if you've got time I'll sign it now.
Mr.Ball. Well, we have to write it up—this has to be written up and it will be so that you can read it. This young lady will notify you and you can come down and read it over and sign it.
Will you do that?
Mr.Dougherty. All right.
Mr.Ball. And we will mark these statements as Dougherty Exhibits Nos. A, B, and C, and attach them to your deposition.
Thank you very much, and goodby.
Mr.Dougherty. That's quite all right—thank you.
(Instruments referred to marked by the reporter as Dougherty Exhibits Nos. A, B, and C, for identification.)
The testimony of Eddie Piper was taken at 10:20 a.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Ball. Will you stand up and raise your right hand and be sworn?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Piper. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Will you state your name please, Mr. Piper?
Mr.Piper. Eddie Piper.
Mr.Ball. And what is your address?
Mr.Piper. 1507½ McCoy.
Mr.Ball. Tell me, Mr. Piper, where you were born and raised.
Mr.Piper. In Travis County.
Mr.Ball. Texas?
Mr.Piper. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Where did you go to school?
Mr.Piper. I went to school at Manor, Tex.
Mr.Ball. How far of school did you go?
Mr.Piper. Eighth grade.
Mr.Ball. And what did you do after that?
Mr.Piper. I went to work then.
Mr.Ball. Where did you go to work?
Mr.Piper. I went to work doing harvest work, some in oil field in Chickasha, Okla., and done farm work.
Mr.Ball. Have you ever been in the Army?
Mr.Piper. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. How old are you?
Mr.Piper. 56.
Mr.Ball. When did you go to work for the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr.Piper. Well, I would say I have been working for them about 4 or 5 years—I'm not sure—I don't know exactly.
Mr.Ball. What kind of work do you do?
Mr.Piper. Janitor.
Mr.Ball. Have you been janitor ever since you were employed?
Mr.Piper. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did you ever know a fellow named Lee Oswald, that worked there?
Mr.Piper. Yes, sir; I know of him.
Mr.Ball. You knew of him?
Mr.Piper. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Did you know him personally?
Mr.Piper. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did you ever talk to him?
Mr.Piper. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did he ever speak to you, say "Hello" or anything of that sort?
Mr.Piper. No, sir; if he did, you hardly ever heard him.
Mr.Ball. Did you ever speak to him?
Mr.Piper. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Did he ever reply to you that you can remember?
Mr.Piper. If he did, I didn't ever hear him. He mumbled something and he would just keep walking.
Mr.Ball. On the 22d of November 1963, you remember that day, don't you?
Mr.Piper. Yes.
Mr.Ball. What time did you go to work that day?
Mr.Piper. 10 o'clock.
Mr.Ball. That was your usual time to go to work?
Mr.Piper. Yes.
Mr.Ball. And, did you see Oswald that morning?
Mr.Piper. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Where?
Mr.Piper. Down on the first floor filling orders.
Mr.Ball. Did you ever see him again that day?
Mr.Piper. You mean all day—the rest of the day?
Mr.Ball. Yes, sir.
Mr.Piper. No.
Mr.Ball. Was that the last time you saw him?
Mr.Piper. Just at 12 o'clock.
Mr.Ball. Where were you at 12 o'clock?
Mr.Piper. Down on the first floor.
Mr.Ball. What was he doing?
Mr.Piper. Well, I said to him—"It's about lunch time. I believe I'll go have lunch." So, he says, "Yeah"—he mumbled something—I don't know whether he said he was going up or going out, so I got my sandwich off of the radiator and went on back to the first window of the first floor.
Mr.Ball. The first window on the first floor?
Mr.Piper. No, not the first window—but on the first floor about the second window on the first floor. I was intending to sit there so I could see the parade because the street was so crowded with people—I didn't see anything.
Mr.Ball. You said you sat at the second window—that would be what window from the corner?
Mr.Piper. Well, from the front door, you know where the front door is—going back right down Elm, it's the second window from the corner.
Mr.Ball. You say you sat down there?
Mr.Piper. Yes.
Mr.Ball. What did you sit on?
Mr.Piper. On a box.
Mr.Ball. Could you see out the window?
Mr.Piper. Yes, I could see out the window but I couldn't see anything—too many people.
Mr.Ball. Did you eat your lunch there?
Mr.Piper. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Where were you when the President's motorcade went by?
Mr.Piper. Now, I don't know—I was sitting there, I'm sure.
Mr.Ball. When the President went by, where were you sitting?
Mr.Piper. Probably sitting there in the same place.
Mr.Ball. Did you move from there from the time you had your lunch until the President went by?
Mr.Piper. Yes, I moved—when there was a shot, I moved.
Mr.Ball. When there was a shot you moved?
Mr.Piper. Yes.
Mr.Ball. From the time you had your lunch until the shot, did you move?
Mr.Piper. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. You were at that window all of the time?
Mr.Piper. All the time.
Mr.Ball. Did you ever go up on the sixth floor?
Mr.Piper. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Were you there at any time that day?
Mr.Piper. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Were you above the first floor that day up to the time of the shot?
Mr.Piper. Before the shot?
Mr.Ball. Yes.
Mr.Piper. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Where?
Mr.Piper. At 11 o'clock I went to the fourth floor to pick up.
Mr.Ball. You went to the fourth floor?
Mr.Piper. Yes, at 11 o'clock.
Mr.Ball. And you worked there for how long?
Mr.Piper. I would just take about 10 or 15 minutes to pick up—not quite that long, to pick up the mail and stuff in the fourth floor office.
Mr.Ball. Then what did you do?
Mr.Piper. I came back down to the third floor and picked up and from there to the second and picked up and on to the first floor.
Mr.Ball. Is that what you usually did—was pick up?
Mr.Piper. Yes, sir; every day.
Mr.Ball. Do you do that every day?
Mr.Piper. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. You pick up mail?
Mr.Piper. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. You pick up mail from what offices?
Mr.Piper. From—what the name of the office is?
Mr.Ball. The different offices?
Mr.Piper. Oh, I pick up mail first—on the fourth floor is Scott Pharmacy, and I come down on the third floor and I pick up there in the hall, you know, they have a hallway there and they put it out on the table—the packages and the mail, and I pick it up there unless they've got a name on the boards to see them in the office and then I go in the office. That's on the third floor. I come down on the second floor and I pick up for Southwestern. I goes in the office and that's the only office I go in there at Southwestern. Like I say—unless there is anything on the board that says see Lon Cunningham, and then I go in there. That's on the second floor, and from there back down to the first floor, and I unloads on the table on the first floor and that's when I'm through—I don't go back no more.
Mr.Ball. You do that every day?
Mr.Piper. Yes.
Mr.Ball. At a certain time?
Mr.Piper. Yes.
Mr.Ball. At what time?
Mr.Piper. At 11 and 3.
Mr.Ball. Now, that day, November 22, 1963, you picked up the mail on the fourth floor at 11 did you?
Mr.Piper. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And then came to the third?
Mr.Piper. Yes.
Mr.Ball. And then to the second?
Mr.Piper. Yes.
Mr.Ball. And what time did you come to the first floor?
Mr.Piper. Well, it was close to—around about—it must have been about 11:30—about 11:30 when I came back.
Mr.Ball. Did you leave the first floor from then on until lunch time, from 11:30 until 12?
Mr.Piper. No.
Mr.Ball. What time was it that you spoke to Oswald and said you thought you would have your lunch?
Mr.Piper. Just about 12 o'clock.
Mr.Ball. And do you remember exactly what he said?
Mr.Piper. No, sir; I don't remember exactly. All I remember him was muttering out something—I didn't know whether he said he was going up or going out.
Mr.Ball. He said something like that?
Mr.Piper. Yes—something like that.
Mr.Ball. Did you see what he did?
Mr.Piper. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr.Ball. Did you see where he went?
Mr.Piper. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr.Ball. You told me that you went to the window?
Mr.Piper. That's right.
Mr.Ball. This is the second window to the right?
Mr.Piper. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Of the front door—that would be looking toward Elm Street, is that right?
Mr.Piper. Yes.
Mr.Ball. And were you sitting there when you heard the shot?
Mr.Piper. That's right.
Mr.Ball. Tell me what you heard?
Mr.Piper. I heard one shot, and then the next shot went off—the one that shot him and I got on up and went on back, back where they make coffee at the end of the counter where I could see what happened and before I could get there, the third shot went off, and I seen the people all running and in a few minutes someone came in the building, and I looked up and it was the bossman and a policeman or someone.
Mr.Ball. You say you heard one shot—you heard two shots and you got up and then what happened, where did you go?
Mr.Piper. I came out to the end of the counter where they make coffee there by the stand.
Mr.Ball. You said you did it so you could see out better?
Mr.Piper. No, sir; I did it to see what time it was—when all this happened—to see what time it was.
Mr.Ball. What time was it?
Mr.Piper. It was about between 12:30—between 12:27 and 12:30—something like that, as near as I can remember.
Mr.Ball. Could you tell where the shots were coming from?
Mr.Piper. No, sir—I couldn't, not for sure.
Mr.Ball. The direction?
Mr.Piper. No, sir; I couldn't.
Mr.Ball. Did you look out the window later?
Mr.Piper. No more—no, sir; I didn't go back to any window.
Mr.Ball. You mentioned you saw Truly?
Mr.Piper. I don't know whether it was a policeman or FBI or who it was, but another fellow was with him.
Mr.Ball. And where were you?
Mr.Piper. Standing right there where they make coffee.
Mr.Ball. What did they do?
Mr.Piper. He ran in and yelled, "Where is the elevator?" And I said, "I don't know, sir, Mr. Truly."