MissBowron. Dr. Carrico and—who else was there—there were so many.
Mr.Specter. Do you recall any of the names?
MissBowron. I don't.
Mr.Specter. Was there any other nurses present other than those you have already mentioned?
MissBowron. Miss Standridge, Jeanette Standridge came in, Mrs. Nelson—the supervisor.
Mr.Specter. Any other nurses present there?
MissBowron. Not that I could say, sir—I don't know the name of any.
Mr.Specter. While the doctors were working on President Kennedy, did you ever have any opportunity to observe his neck?
MissBowron. No; I didn't, until afterwards.
Mr.Specter. Until after what?
MissBowron. Until after they had pronounced him dead and we cleaned up and removed the trach tube, and indeed we were really too shocked to really take much notice.
Mr.Specter. Did you ever see his neck prior to the time you removed the trach tube?
MissBowron. No, sir.
Mr.Specter. Now, did you personally participate in removing President Kennedy's body from the stretcher?
MissBowron. No, sir—I didn't touch him. We held him with the sheet.
Mr.Specter. Were you present when his body was removed from the stretcher?
MissBowron. Yes; I was.
Mr.Specter. And did you observe the stretcher from which his body was removed to be the same stretcher that he had been brought into trauma room No. 1 on?
MissBowron. Yes.
Mr.Specter. That's the stretcher you took out there for him?
MissBowron. Yes.
Mr.Specter. And what sheets were present on the stretcher or in the adjacent area used in the care of President Kennedy?
MissBowron. The sheets that had already been on the stretcher when we took it out with the President on. When we came back after all the work had been done on him—so that Mrs. Kennedy could have a look before he was, you know, really moved into the coffin. We wrapped some extra sheets around his head so it wouldn't look so bad and there were some sheets on the floor so that nobody would step in the blood. Those were put down during all the work that was going on so the doctors wouldn't slip.
Mr.Specter. What was done with all of the sheets on the stretcher and on floor area there?
MissBowron. They were all gathered up and put into a linen scape.
Mr.Specter. Did you gather them up yourself?
MissBowron. Yes.
Mr.Specter. All of them?
MissBowron. Yes; with the help of Miss Henchliffe.
Mr.Specter. And did the two of you put them in the linen hamper?
MissBowron. Yes; I put them in the linen hamper myself.
Mr.Specter. What was done with the stretcher then?
MissBowron. The stretcher was then wheeled across into trauma room No. 2, which was empty.
Mr.Specter. Was there anything on the stretcher at all when it was wheeled into trauma room No. 2?
MissBowron. Not that we noticed, except the rubber mattress that was left on it.
Mr.Specter. Would you have noticed anything had anything been on that stretcher?
MissBowron. Yes; I think so.
Mr.Specter. And where was the stretcher when you last saw it?
MissBowron. Being wheeled across into trauma room 2.
Mr.Specter. Now, I am going to show you three photostatic copies of newspaper stories which I will ask the Court Reporter to mark Bowron Exhibit Nos. 2, 3 and 4.
(Instruments referred to marked by the Reporter as Bowron Exhibit Nos. 2, 3, and 4, for identification.)
Mr.Specter. Will you look at those and tell me whether or not those are photostatic copies of newspaper accounts of your story of this assassination day?
MissBowron. They are photostatic copies of the articles that appeared in the newspapers, but they are not all my story.
Mr.Specter. What newspapers did they appear in?
MissBowron. I believe this is the "Observer".
Mr.Specter. You are referring to BX Number 2 and what city is that published in?
MissBowron. London.
Mr.Specter. And BX Number 3 came from where?
MissBowron. I think that this was "The Mail—The Daily Mail".
Mr.Specter. Appearing in what city?
MissBowron. It appears in all cities. It is a national newspaper.
Mr.Specter. In England?
MissBowron. Yes; it is prepared in England.
Mr.Specter. And how about BX-4?
MissBowron. Well, this I think was "The Mirror" I think.
Mr.Specter. What city is The Mirror published in?
MissBowron. That is a national newspaper.
Mr.Specter. Appearing in England?
MissBowron. Yes.
Mr.Specter. Were there any stories in any other newspapers about you and your participation in the events of the day at Parkland?
MissBowron. I believe there was one—I think it was an Australian paper and Mrs. Nelson received a letter from there with an article and which was the same as I think—as this one.
Mr.Specter. BX-4?
MissBowron. Yes.
Mr.Specter. And does that constitute all the stories which appeared about your participation in this event?
MissBowron. Yes.
Mr.Specter. Now, will you state briefly the circumstances under which this information was obtained, if you know?
MissBowron. Mrs. Nelson spoke to me and told me that there had been two English reporters in Dallas who had been asking about me, and she told them where to get in touch with me, and the next day they came to the emergency room and wanted to speak to me and I said I couldn't tell them anything other than I was from England, gave them my home address, and the fact that I had been present and I was the one who went out to the car and brought the President in and being with him until they finished, and that was all that I told them.
Mr.Specter. Did you give them any information beyond that?
MissBowron. No, sir; and they told me that there would probably be some English reporters calling on my parents at home, and I am the only child and my mother worries, so I called home the next—that night and told my parents that I had been on duty and that there would probably be some reporters calling on them, and they weren't to worry about it but they weren't to say anything that—except that I had been on duty and that was all.
Mr.Specter. Have you been interviewed by any representative of the Federal Government prior to today?
MissBowron. Yes, sir.
Mr.Specter. By whom?
MissBowron. I don't really know—he was an FBI agent.
Mr.Specter. And when was that?
MissBowron. It was a week or two, I think, after the assassination.
Mr.Specter. And what did he ask you and what did you tell him?
MissBowron. He asked us more or less the same questions you have asked us.
Mr.Specter. What did you tell him?
MissBowron. The same as I told you.
Mr.Specter. When you say "us", whom do you mean by "us"?
MissBowron. Mrs. Nelson was there and Miss Henchliffe and myself.
Mr.Specter. Have you talked to any other representatives of the Federal Government prior to today?
MissBowron. No, sir.
Mr.Specter. And did I discuss with you the purpose of the deposition and the nature of the questions that I would ask you immediately before we went on the record with this being taken down by the Court Reporter?
MissBowron. Yes.
Mr.Specter. And did you give me the same information which you have put on the record here today?
MissBowron. Yes.
Mr.Specter. Do you have anything to add that you think might be helpful in any way to the Commission?
MissBowron. Yes. When we were doing a cutdown on the President's left arm, his gold watch was in the way and they broke it—you know, undid it and it was slipping down and I just dropped it off of his hand and put it in my pocket and forgot completely about it until his body was being taken out of the emergency room and then I realized, and ran out to give it to one of the Secret Service men or anybody I could find and found this Mr. Wright.
Mr.Specter. Was that the same day?
MissBowron. Yes—he had only just gone through O.B.—I was just a few feet behind him.
Mr.Specter. Do you think of anything else that might be of assistance to the Commission?
MissBowron. No, sir.
Mr.Specter. Thank you very much for coming, Miss Bowron.
MissBowron. Thank you.
Mr.Specter. Thank you a lot.
MissBowron. All right, thank you.
The testimony of Margaret M. Henchliffe was taken at 2 p.m., on March 21, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Specter. Miss Henchliffe, the purpose of our asking you to come in today is in connection with the investigation being conducted by the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. The Commission has not written to you because, we have learned from Mrs. Doris Nelson in the depositiontaken yesterday that you have some information of value to provide to us so that the regular procedure has not been followed of sending you a copy of the Executive order or of the resolution concerning the procedures of the taking of testimony.
Permit me to make those documents available to you.
(Handed instruments to the Witness Henchliffe.)
Let me say that since yesterday I have contacted Mr. J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel, in Washington and he has authorized the taking of this deposition by letter, which I received today, so that it has been authorized, and the real question I have with you is whether it is all right with you to provide us with the information you have today, as opposed to sometime next week after you have had the 3 days' notice which you are entitled to if you want it?
MissHenchliffe. It is all right with me.
Mr.Specter. Is it all right with you to proceed and have your deposition taken today?
MissHenchliffe. Yes, sir.
Mr.Specter. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give before this Commission as it is holding deposition proceedings now will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
MissHenchliffe. Yes.
Mr.Specter. Will you state your full name, please?
MissHenchliffe. Margaret M. Henchliffe.
Mr.Specter. What is your occupation or profession?
MissHenchliffe. I am a nurse, registered nurse.
Mr.Specter. And where are you employed?
MissHenchliffe. Parkland Memorial Hospital.
Mr.Specter. And where were you employed on November 22, 1963?
MissHenchliffe. Parkland Memorial Hospital.
Mr.Specter. And were you notified on that date that the President was on his way to the hospital?
MissHenchliffe. No, sir; I didn't know it at the time until later.
Mr.Specter. When did you first learn about it, if at all?
MissHenchliffe. I found out who it was when I went out to get blood.
Mr.Specter. About what time of day was that?
MissHenchliffe. Well. I guess it was about 2 minutes after he came in.
Mr.Specter. Did you observe him at some place in the hospital?
MissHenchliffe. I was working with him in the emergency room.
Mr.Specter. Had he arrived in the emergency room when you first arrived at the site of the emergency room?
MissHenchliffe. Do what?
Mr.Specter. Were you in the area of the emergency room before he came there?
MissHenchliffe. Yes.
Mr.Specter. Did you see him actually wheeled into the emergency room?
MissHenchliffe. Yes; in fact, I helped wheel him on into trauma room 1.
Mr.Specter. And, where was he when you first saw him?
MissHenchliffe. He was between trauma rooms 1 and 2.
Mr.Specter. Did you see him when he was brought into the hospital itself?
MissHenchliffe. At the emergency entrance—no. It was after he came into the emergency room.
Mr.Specter. He came into the emergency area?
MissHenchliffe. Yes.
Mr.Specter. And then you saw him and helped wheel him, you say, into the emergency room No. 1?
MissHenchliffe. Yes.
Mr.Specter. And who else was present at the time you first saw him when he had just come into the emergency area?
MissHenchliffe. Let me see, I think Dr. Carrico was there—he was there very shortly after—afterwards.
Mr.Specter. He was there when you arrived? Or arrived shortly after you did?
MissHenchliffe. Well, actually I went in ahead of the cart with him and I was the first one in with him, and just in a minute, or seconds, Dr. Carrico came in.
Mr.Specter. And what other doctors arrived, if any?
MissHenchliffe. Oh, gee. Let's see—there was Dr. Baxter, Dr. Perry, and you want all of them that were in the room?
Mr.Specter. If you can remember them.
MissHenchliffe. Dr. Kemp Clark, Dr. Jenkins, Dr. Peters, Dr. Crenshaw, and there was some woman anesthetist that I don't know which—who it was.
Mr.Specter. What did you observe to be the President's condition when you first saw him?
MissHenchliffe. I saw him breathe a couple of times and that was all.
Mr.Specter. Did you see any wound anywhere on his body?
MissHenchliffe. Yes, he was very bloody; his head was very bloody when I saw him at the time.
Mr.Specter. Did you ever see any wound in any other part of his body?
MissHenchliffe. When I first saw him—except his head.
Mr.Specter. Did you see any wound on any other part of his body?
MissHenchliffe. Yes; in the neck.
Mr.Specter. Will you describe it, please?
MissHenchliffe. It was just a little hole in the middle of his neck.
Mr.Specter. About how big a hole was it?
MissHenchliffe. About as big around as the end of my little finger.
Mr.Specter. Have you ever had any experience with bullet holes?
MissHenchliffe. Yes.
Mr.Specter. And what did that appear to you to be?
MissHenchliffe. An entrance bullet hole—it looked to me like.
Mr.Specter. Could it have been an exit bullet hole?
MissHenchliffe. I have never seen an exit bullet hole—I don't remember seeing one that looked like that.
Mr.Specter. What were the characteristics of the hole?
MissHenchliffe. It was just a little round—just a little round hole, just a little round jagged-looking—jagged a little bit.
Mr.Specter. What experience have you had in observing bullet holes, Miss Henchliffe?
MissHenchliffe. Well, we take care of a lot of bullet wounds down there—I don't know how many a year.
Mr.Specter. Have you ever had any formal studies of bullet holes?
MissHenchliffe. Oh, no; nothing except my experience in the emergency room.
Mr.Specter. In what?
MissHenchliffe. In the emergency room is all.
Mr.Specter. What was done to the President after he arrived at the emergency room?
MissHenchliffe. Well the first thing, his endotracheal tube was inserted.
Mr.Specter. Were you present all the time he was in the emergency room?
MissHenchliffe. Except when I left out to get blood.
Mr.Specter. And how long were you gone?
MissHenchliffe. Oh, about 3 minutes or so—3 or 4 minutes.
Mr.Specter. And were you present when he was pronounced dead?
MissHenchliffe. Yes, sir.
Mr.Specter. What was done with the President's body after he was pronounced to be dead?
MissHenchliffe. Well, after the last rites were said, we then undressed him and cleaned him up and wrapped him up in sheets until the coffin was brought.
Mr.Specter. And after the coffin arrived, what was done with his body?
MissHenchliffe. He was placed in the coffin.
Mr.Specter. What had he been on up until that time?
MissHenchliffe. An emergency room cart.
Mr.Specter. And is that also described as a stretcher?
MissHenchliffe. A stretcher—yes.
Mr.Specter. Would you describe what this stretcher looked like?
MissHenchliffe. Well, how do you describe a stretcher—it's just along——
Mr.Specter. Made of metal?
MissHenchliffe. Yes; it's made of metal.
Mr.Specter. On roller wheels?
MissHenchliffe. Roller wheels with a rubber mattress on it, rubber covered mattress on it.
Mr.Specter. And after he was taken off of the stretcher, what was left on the stretcher at that time?
MissHenchliffe. Just some sheets and I guess there were some dirty syringes and needles laying on it that we picked up.
Mr.Specter. That you picked up—where were they placed?
MissHenchliffe. We placed them on a tray and took them all out to the utility room.
Mr.Specter. How many sheets were there on the stretcher?
MissHenchliffe. Well, I am really not sure—there was probably about two or three.
Mr.Specter. And in what position were they all on the stretcher after President Kennedy's body was removed?
MissHenchliffe. Well, one was covering the whole mattress and there was one or two that we had left just under his head, that had been placed under his head.
Mr.Specter. And what was done with those sheets?
MissHenchliffe. They were all rolled up and taken to the dirty linen hamper.
Mr.Specter. Do you know who took those to the dirty linen hamper?
MissHenchliffe. To the best of my knowledge, the orderly.
Mr.Specter. And who was he?
MissHenchliffe. David Sanders—is that his name?
Mr.Specter. And what was done with the stretcher?
MissHenchliffe. It was rolled into the room across the hall.
Mr.Specter. Did you actually see the stretcher that President Kennedy was on rolled into the room across the hall?
MissHenchliffe. Yes.
Mr.Specter. And into which room was it rolled?
MissHenchliffe. Room 2.
Mr.Specter. What was that?
MissHenchliffe. Room 2.
Mr.Specter. Emergency room No. 2?
MissHenchliffe. Yes, sir.
Mr.Specter. And, when it was rolled into emergency room 2, were the sheets still all on, or were they off at that time?
MissHenchliffe. I believe they were off.
Mr.Specter. Is it possible that the stretcher that Mr. Kennedy was on was rolled with the sheets on it down into the area near the elevator?
MissHenchliffe. No, sir.
Mr.Specter. Are you sure of that?
MissHenchliffe. I am positive of that.
Mr.Specter. Have you anything to add that you think might be helpful to the Commission?
MissHenchliffe. No, sir; I don't think of anything.
Mr.Specter. Did I talk to you about the purpose of the Commission and the same questions that I have been asking and the answers that you have been giving for a few minutes before the Court reporter came in to take this down in shorthand?
MissHenchliffe. Yes.
Mr.Specter. And did you give me the same information at that time?
MissHenchliffe. To the best of my ability.
Mr.Specter. Thank you very much for coming.
MissHenchliffe. Okay.
(At this point the witness, Henchliffe, was thereupon excused from the deposing room.)
(In approximately 3 minutes thereafter the witness returned to the deposing room and the deposition continued as follows:)
Mr.Specter. Let me ask you a couple of questions more, Miss Henchliffe, one other question, or two, before you go.
Was the wound on the front of the neck surrounded by any blood?
MissHenchliffe. No, sir.
Mr.Specter. Was there any blood at all in that area?
MissHenchliffe. No, sir.
Mr.Specter. What was there about the wound, if you recall anything special, which gave you the impression it was an entrance wound?
MissHenchliffe. Well, it was just a small wound and wasn't jagged like most of the exit bullet wounds that I have seen.
Mr.Specter. If there was a high-powered rifle, or a high-powered rifle was going at a fast speed, as fast as 2,000 feet per second, which encountered only soft tissue in the body, would you have sufficient knowledge to know whether or not the appearance of that hole would be consistent with an exit wound?
MissHenchliffe. Well, from some information I received in talking to someone about guns later on, they said that this is possible. But you have a small exit wound—you could have a small exit wound.
Mr.Specter. Under what circumstances?
MissHenchliffe. As you described—a very fast bullet that didn't hit anything but soft tissue going through.
Mr.Specter. And do you have any other source of information or basis for having an opinion whether it was an entrance wound or an exit wound other than that source of information you just described, plus your general experience here at Parkland as a nurse?
MissHenchliffe. No, sir.
Mr.Specter. How long have you been at Parkland as a nurse?
MissHenchliffe. Well, I have had emergency room experience for about 5 years here and a couple of years at Baylor Hospital.
Mr.Specter. And is that the total sum of your experience?
MissHenchliffe. In the emergency room.
Mr.Specter. And what other experience have you had besides emergency room experience?
MissHenchliffe. Well, in the operating room here.
Mr.Specter. How long have you had operating room experience here?
MissHenchliffe. 3 years.
Mr.Specter. And how long have you been a registered nurse altogether?
MissHenchliffe. 12 years—almost 12 years.
Mr.Specter. And what is the source of information about the appearance of an exit wound from a high-powered gun which you have just described?
MissHenchliffe. I don't remember who I was talking to now. I was just talking to someone one day about gunshots and after this report came out that said that any high-powered gun that this could happen.
Mr.Specter. That it could be an exit wound which looked very much like an entrance wound with the missile striking nothing but soft tissue?
MissHenchliffe. Yes, sir.
Mr.Specter. Do you have anything else to add?
MissHenchliffe. No.
Mr.Specter. Thank you very much.
MissHenchliffe. All right.
The testimony of Doris Mae Nelson was taken on March 20, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Specter. Mrs. Nelson, this is Miss Oliver, the court reporter, and will you raise your right hand and take the oath?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give in this proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs.Nelson. I do.
Mr.Specter. May the record show that Mrs. Doris Nelson is appearing to testify in this deposition proceeding conducted by the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy to provide whatever facts, if any, she may know concerning the treatment received by President Kennedy and Governor Connally at Parkland Memorial Hospital on November 22, 1963.
Mr.Specter. Will you state your full name for the record, please?
Mrs.Nelson. Doris Mae Nelson. Do you want my maiden name?
Mr.Specter. Fine, yes; what is your maiden name?
Mrs.Nelson. Morris, M-o-r-r-i-s [spelling].
Mr.Specter. Mrs. Nelson, have you had an opportunity to view the joint resolution of the 88th Congress and the Executive order which established the President's Commission?
Mrs.Nelson. Yes; I read it yesterday.
Mr.Specter. And have you had an opportunity to view the resolution of the President's Commission covering questioning of witnesses by members of the Commission staff?
Mrs.Nelson. Yes.
Mr.Specter. And are you willing to be questioned today concerning this matter, even though you have not had 3 days' notice?
Mrs.Nelson. Yes.
Mr.Specter. Therefore waiving the right which you have, a 3 days' notice under the resolution?
Mrs.Nelson. Yes.
Mr.Specter. What is your occupation or profession?
Mrs.Nelson. I am a registered nurse, supervisor of the emergency room at Parkland Memorial Hospital.
Mr.Specter. And how long have you been so occupied?
Mrs.Nelson. A year and 6 months as supervisor of the emergency room.
Mr.Specter. What were your duties in a general way on November 22, 1963?
Mrs.Nelson. I was primarily responsible for assigning personnel in the treatment of the injured patients and carrying out security measures with the Secret Service.
Mr.Specter. What notification, if any, did you receive on that date concerning injuries to President Kennedy?
Mrs.Nelson. I received a phone call approximately 3 to 5 minutes prior to their arrival, from the telephone operator, stating that the President had been shot and was being brought to the emergency room.
Mr.Specter. What action after that did you take in preparing for the President's arrival?
Mrs.Nelson. I immediately took the surgical resident into trauma room No. 1, notified him of the incident, and asked the—also told the head nurse that the President had been shot and was being brought to the emergency room.
Then, I went into trauma room 2, after the head nurse had told me that trauma room 1 was set up for any emergency, and proceeded to open a bottle of intravenous fluid and set it up for an emergency situation.
Mr.Specter. Did you know at that time that anyone else had been injured?
Mrs.Nelson. No; we were not notified as to anyone else being injured.
Mr.Specter. What occurred with respect to the arrival of any injured party at Parkland Memorial Hospital thereafter?
Mrs.Nelson. As I walked out of trauma room No. 2 I heard someone calling for stretchers and an orderly ran back into the area and got a stretcher and ran out of the door, and a few seconds later Governor Connally, who at that time I did not know who it was but recognized him as not being the President, arrived and I directed them into trauma room 2.
Mr.Specter. Did the orderly take out one stretcher, or was more than one stretcher taken out?
Mrs.Nelson. I do not know exactly how many stretchers were taken out at the time because I was not out at that area.
Mr.Specter. Did another stretcher come into the area?
Mrs.Nelson. Yes; immediately behind the Governor another stretcher was brought back into the emergency room and on this stretcher was President Kennedy.
Mr.Specter. How were you able to identify President Kennedy?
Mrs.Nelson. Well, I could look and see him and tell that it was him.
Mr.Specter. What part did you see?
Mrs.Nelson. The—mainly his head.
Mr.Specter. Was there any coat covering his face?
Mrs.Nelson. There was a coat thrown across the top of him, not completely covering his face, and Mrs. Kennedy—do you want me to tell about Mrs. Kennedy and the flowers?
Mr.Specter. Yes; continue. Yes; in answering the questions, Mrs. Nelson, feel perfectly free to make as full an answer to the question—I hesitate to have you stop, so that the record we make will appear continuous and everything may be recorded fully for our record purposes.
Mrs.Nelson. Mrs. Kennedy was walking beside the stretcher and the roses that she had been given at the airport were lying on top of the President and her hat was also lying on top of the President as he was brought into the emergency room.
Mr.Specter. Where was he then taken?
Mrs.Nelson. He was immediately taken into trauma room 1.
Mr.Specter. And who, if anyone, was present at that time to attend him in a medical way?
Mrs.Nelson. Dr. Carrico, a surgical resident was there at the time that he was brought in, and Dr. Perry, an associate professor of surgery arrived shortly thereafter, and several doctors arrived, Dr. Baxter, associate professor of surgery, Dr. Kemp Clark, professor of neurosurgery and chairman of the department; Dr.Bashour—
Mr.Specter. Spell, please.
Mrs.Nelson. B-a-s-h-o-u-r (spelling), chairman of the Department of Cardiology, and several other doctors who I cannot recall all the names at the present time.
Mr.Specter. Were you present inside of the emergency room where President Kennedy was taken?
Mrs.Nelson. When what?
Mr.Specter. Were you in there at the time they were treating him, caring for him at any time?
Mrs.Nelson. On one occasion I went into the room and this was mainly to ask Mrs. Kennedy if she had rather wait out in the hallway rather than in the room where they were treating the President, and I was told by the Secret Service agent that she may stay in there if she wished.
Mr.Specter. Is there any table, or was there any table in the emergency room to which President Kennedy was taken that he could be placed on from the stretcher?
Mrs.Nelson. No.
Mr.Specter. Is it the normal situation to have no table present in the emergency room?
Mrs.Nelson. The only one there is in case an ambulance should bring a patient in, but if a patient comes in the emergency room on a stretcher, then the stretcher that is in there is removed. Then the patient remains on the same stretcher that he comes into the emergency room on.
Mr.Specter. And was there a stretcher in the emergency room at the time President Kennedy was taken in on a second stretcher?
Mrs.Nelson. It was taken out when they wheeled it in.
Mr.Specter. Were there any sheets on the stretcher that President Kennedy was on?
Mrs.Nelson. Yes.
Mr.Specter. After President Kennedy was taken off of the stretcher, did you have occasion to observe that stretcher?
Mrs.Nelson. Yes; the stretcher was stripped by the nursing personnel working in the room and the stretcher was moved across from trauma room 1 to trauma room 2 in order to get the stretcher out of the room.
Mr.Specter. What personnel stripped the stretcher?
Mrs.Nelson. Margaret Henchliffe, H-e-n-c-h-l-i-f-f-e [spelling], and Diana Bowron, D-i-a-n-a B-o-w-r-o-n [spelling].
Mr.Specter. Did you actually observe Diana Bowron or Margaret Henchliffe strip the stretcher?
Mrs.Nelson. No; I did not. This was the report that I received afterwards.
Mr.Specter. From whom did you receive that report?
Mrs.Nelson. From these two nurses.
Mr.Specter. Did you see the stretcher after it was stripped in the emergency room to which President Kennedy was taken?
Mrs.Nelson. No, I saw it after it was wheeled from trauma room 1 to trauma room 2, because I was standing there at the doorway between the two rooms with the Secret Service Police.
Mr.Specter. But it was actually in trauma room 1?
Mrs.Nelson. Yes.
Mr.Specter. As it was being wheeled out to trauma room 2 and at the time it was being wheeled out, was there any sheet on it atall——
Mrs.Nelson. No.
Mr.Specter. Rolled up on it in any way at all?
Mrs.Nelson. No.
Mr.Specter. Did you see where the stretcher was then placed?
Mrs.Nelson. Yes, it was put into trauma room 2.
Mr.Specter. Where was President Kennedy's body at that time?
Mrs.Nelson. It was in—it had been placed in a casket in trauma room 1.
Mr.Specter. And was the casket on any sort of an object or was it on the floor or what?
Mrs.Nelson. It was on a form of roller-type table.
Mr.Specter. And did—do you know what President Kennedy's body was in, if anything, at that time?
Mrs.Nelson. Yes, one of the nurses, Miss Hutton, came out and said that the President was having extensive bleeding from the head and they had wrapped four sheets around it but it was still oozing through, so I sent her to the second floor to obtain a mattress cover, a plastic mattress cover, to put in the casket prior to putting his body in the casket, so the mattress cover was placed in the casket and I did not see this happen, but this is how it was explained to me by the nurse, and the plastic was placed on the mattress cover and the cover was around the mattress.
Mr.Specter. Which nurse explained that to you?
Mrs.Nelson. Miss Bowron and Miss Henchliffe.
Mr.Specter. And what was done with the sheets which had been used to absorb the blood from the President's body?
Mrs.Nelson. Well, there were approximately four sheets wrapped around him and the remaining sheets that were on the stretcher were pulled up and thrown in the linen hamper, according to Miss Bowron and Miss Henchliffe.
Mr.Specter. And where is that linen hamper located?
Mrs.Nelson. That linen hamper is located in the utility room area of the emergency room, which is just outside of the trauma room area.
Mr.Specter. And what floor is that on?
Mrs.Nelson. On the ground floor of the hospital.
Mr.Specter. What was done with Governor Connally?
Mrs.Nelson. Governor Connally was in the emergency room for a very short period, approximately 15 to 20 minutes, at which time he had chest tubes inserted, intravenous fluid started, anesthesia or oxygen given to him, and he was taken immediately from the emergency room to the operating room accompanied by several doctors.
Mr.Specter. Did you see him inside trauma room No. 2?
Mrs.Nelson. Yes; I did.
Mr.Specter. And did you observe him when he was taken out of trauma room No. 2?
Mrs.Nelson. Yes, I saw him when he went upstairs to the operating room.
Mr.Specter. And how did he get upstairs to the operating room?
Mrs.Nelson. On a stretcher carried by several of the doctors. Miss Standridge went in front, and opened doorways and went to the elevator. I could not see her at the elevator but this is what she told me.
Mr.Specter. How far could you see her?
Mrs.Nelson. Oh, approximately 30 feet.
Mr.Specter. And who is Miss Standridge?
Mrs.Nelson. Head nurse in the emergency room.
Mr.Specter. What is her first name?
Mrs.Nelson. Jeanette.
Mr.Specter. You say the stretcher was carried?
Mrs.Nelson. Well, it was wheeled.
Mr.Specter. And what does the stretcher look like that Governor Connally was on?
Mrs.Nelson. Well, there are no specific details, it's an average type of movable four-wheel stretcher, made out of metal, with a plastic mattress on the stretcher. It has an elevation between—on the sides, so that the—I don't know how to explain exactly.
Mr.Specter. A bumper-type effect?
Mrs.Nelson. It has a bumper on the side.
Mr.Specter. Is there a tray underneath the place where the body was resting?
Mrs.Nelson. Yes.
Mr.Specter. And is that the same general description of a stretcher that President Kennedy was brought in on?
Mrs.Nelson. Yes; they were the same type.
Mr.Specter. Mrs. Nelson, I'm going to show you a four-page statement which is marked "Activities of Doris Nelson, R.N., beginning 12 noon, Friday, November 22, 1963," after I ask that it be marked as an exhibit in connection with this deposition.
(Reporter marked the instrument referred to as Nelson Exhibit No. 1.)
Mr.Specter. Is this a photostatic copy of the statement which you gave to Mr. Jack Price, the administrator of the hospital, concerning your activities on November 22, 1963, as they pertain to this matter?
Mrs.Nelson. Yes; it is.
Mr.Specter. And are the facts set forth herein true and correct to the best of your knowledge, information and belief?
Mrs.Nelson. Yes; they are.
Mr.Specter. Did I meet with you for a few moments before we started this deposition and explain the purpose of the proceeding?
Mrs.Nelson. Yes; you did.
Mr.Specter. Did I ask you the same questions which we have discussed here during the course of my questioning before the court reporter?
Mrs.Nelson. Yes.
Mr.Specter. Thank you very much for providing this deposition to us.
Mrs.Nelson. You are quite welcome.
Mr.Specter. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record between Mr. Specter and the witness, Mrs. Doris Nelson.)
Mr.Specter. Back on the record, just a minute.
Mrs. Nelson, I will ask you if you would sign the end of this statement here, that it is your statement?
Mrs.Nelson. (Signed statement referred to.)
Mr.Specter. And are you willing to waive a requirement, if it is any formal requirement, as to the signing of this deposition?
Mrs.Nelson. Yes; I am.
Mr.Specter. Thank you very much.
The testimony of Charles Jack Price was taken at 4:50 p.m., on March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Specter. May the record show that C. Jack Price is present to have his deposition taken in connection with the inquiry of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, which is concerned with the medical care rendered at Parkland Memorial Hospital to President John F. Kennedy and to Governor John B. Connally.
Authorization has been obtained to take the deposition of Mr. Price and he has had access to the copy of the Executive order creating the President'sCommission——
Mr.Price. Yes.
Mr.Specter. And the rules relating to the taking of depositions of witnesses. Is it satisfactory with you to have your deposition taken without having the 3-day waiting period between the request and the taking of the deposition?
Mr.Price. Yes.
Mr.Specter. Would you stand up, Mr. Price, and raise your right hand?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the President's Commission and in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Price. I do.
Mr.Specter. Would you state your full name for the record, please?
Mr.Price. Charles Jack Price.
Mr.Specter. And what is your official title here?
Mr.Price. Administrator, Dallas County Hospital district, comprised of Parkland Memorial Hospital and Woodlawn Hospital.
Mr.Specter. Mr. Price, in connection with your duties at Parkland Memorial Hospital, did you request that all of the individuals who participated in the care and treatment of President Kennedy and Governor Connally, or at least those who were principally concerned with that treatment, prepare and submit reports to you concerning that treatment?
Mr.Price. Yes; through Dr. Kemp Clark, who is chairman of our medical records committee.
Mr.Specter. And where have those records been kept after submission through Dr. Kemp Clark?
Mr.Price. The records were brought directly to my office. In fact, some of the records were written in my office and since that time have been kept in my custody, specifically under lock and key in my desk drawer.
Mr.Specter. I show you a document which has heretofore been marked as "Commission Exhibit No. 392," and I ask you if this constitutes all of the records of the doctors who examined and treated President Kennedy and Governor Connally which are in your possession, that is all the records which were made by the examining doctors?
Mr.Price. (Examining instrument referred to.) Do you want my comments as I go through this or do you want me to look through it and say "Yes," or "No"?
Mr.Specter. Yes; I would like to just be sure for the record that those are all of the records. You and I went through them the other day informally and at that time you supplemented my records to some extent, which I will put on the deposition record here.
Mr.Price. Yes.
Mr.Specter. Perhaps, before going to Commission Exhibit No. 392, permit me to have this photostatic copy marked Mr. Price's Exhibit No. 2.
(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as Price Exhibit No. 2, for identification.)
Mr.Specter. And I ask you if this is a photostatic copy of a letter which was sent by Dr. Kemp Clark to Dr. Burkley, the President's private physician?
Mr.Price. It is.
Mr.Specter. And with that, the summary of all the treatments performed at Parkland, which was prepared by Dr. Kemp Clark?
Mr.Price. That's right.
Mr.Specter. And below that, another summary sheet which bears the corrected notation, with your signature over it, that the President arrived at the emergency room at exactly 12:38 p.m., with 12:43 scratched out?
Mr.Price. That's correct.
Mr.Specter. Now, as you move through your file, permit me to also ask the reporter to mark as Mr. Price's Exhibit No. 3, an affidavit of Ulah McCoy, and I'll ask you if that is a copy of an original in your file?
(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as Price Exhibit No. 3, for identification.)
Mr.Price. Yes; it is.
Mr.Specter. And I will ask her to mark as Mr. Price Exhibit No. 4 an affidavit of Doris Nelson and I'll ask you if that is a copy of a report in your possession?
(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as Price Exhibit No. 4, for identification.)
Mr.Price. Yes.
Mr.Specter. Your next report is one from Dr. M. T. Jenkins?
Mr.Price. Professor and chairman of the department of anesthesiology.
Mr.Specter. And is that a copy of the document which you are looking at here?
Mr.Price. It is.
Mr.Specter. As part of Exhibit 392?
Mr.Price. That's right, and my next one is the statement of Dr. W. Kemp Clark.
Mr.Specter. And is that the original of a copy of which appears in this group of papers as Exhibit No. 392?
Mr.Price. Yes; it is. The next one that I have is the statement of Dr. Perry.
Mr.Specter. And is that the original of a copy of a statement which appears in Exhibit 392?
Mr.Price. Yes; the statement of Dr. Charles W. Baxter.
Mr.Specter. Is that the original of a copy which appears in Exhibit 392?
Mr.Price. Yes; it is; that's the statement of Dr. Carrico.
Mr.Specter. And is this the copy of the original of Dr. Carrico's statement?
Mr.Price. Yes; it is; and this is Dr. McClelland's statement.
Mr.Specter. I now show you a photostatic copy of what purports to be Dr. McClelland's statement, and is that a copy of the original in your file?
Mr.Price. Yes; it is.
Mr.Specter. What is your next report?
Mr.Price. My next report is Dr. Bashour's report.
Mr.Specter. And I show you a sheet in the group of papers marked Exhibit 392, and ask you if that is a photostatic copy of the original in your file?
Mr.Price. Yes; it is.
Mr.Specter. And what is next?
Mr.Price. My next one is the summary of Dr. Ronald C. Jones.
Mr.Specter. Now, I'll ask you if this is a photostatic copy of the original of the statement by Dr. Ronald Jones which is in your file?
Mr.Price. May I see it, please?
Mr.Specter. Yes.
(Handed instrument referred to to the witness.)
Mr.Price. Yes; it is.
Mr.Specter. Now, does that constitute all of the original records concerning the treatment of President John F. Kennedy in your file?
Mr.Price. With one exception—there is in the file that I have of Governor Connally the original of the transcript of "Registration of patients," which I furnished you a photostat of, our number being 01811.
Mr.Specter. And is this a photostatic copy of that registration of patients?
Mr.Price. It is; and I think I reviewed it with you at the time I gave this to you—the transverse of patients No. 2 and No. 5.
Mr.Specter. No. 5 is marked John Connally and No. 2 is John F. Kennedy, and how should that have been marked?
Mr.Price. The first patient in the hospital was Governor Connally.
Mr.Specter. So, he should have been No. 2?
Mr.Price. So, he should have been No. 2 as shown on the transcript.
Mr.Specter. And the President should have been noted as No. 5?
Mr.Price. The President should have been noted as No. 5.
(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as Price Exhibit No. 5, for identification.)
Mr.Price. The simultaneous arrival at the ambulance dock would not affect the time as shown in the corrected copy that I gave you of the arrival there.
Mr.Specter. Now, turn if you will, to the records on Governor Connally and I will ask you if as part of Commission Exhibit 392, we have photostatic copies of the operative records starting, first with the operation performed by Dr. Shaw.
Mr.Price. I have the original of that but this is the complete medical charts that I have here.
Mr.Specter. As to this report alone, do you have the original in that record?
Mr.Price. Here it is.
Mr.Specter. And is this an exact photocopy of the original report prepared by Dr. Robert Shaw, the original of which appears in your record on Governor Connally?
Mr.Price. It is.
Mr.Specter. Is this an exact photostatic copy of the report of Dr. Charles Gregory?
Mr.Price. There has been since this photostat was made and forwarded to you—Dr. Gregory, prior to signing the official copy, did make some pencil corrections, and I will be glad to have the original photostated or Xeroxed now and give you a corrected copy if you would like?
Mr.Specter. That would be fine, and perhaps it would be faster just to read those changes into our record here. However, let's pursue the line of getting a Xerox copy.
Now, turning to the report of Dr. Shires, is this a true and correct photostatic copy of Dr. Shires' report?
Mr.Price. It is; it is a correct copy.
Mr.Specter. Now, I show you a large group of papers which I am going to ask the reporter to mark Mr. Price Exhibits Nos. 6, 7, 8, and 9.
(Instruments referred to marked by the reporter as Price Exhibits Nos. 6, 7, 8, and 9, for identification.)
Mr.Specter. I now show you a group of papers, and as they are being marked, if you would take a look at them. Price Exhibit No. 6—I'll ask you if these are photostatic copies of reports which you have made available to me of originals which you have in your file made by various members of your staff, concerning the events of November 22, and November 24.
Mr.Price. Do you want these individually or as a group?
Mr.Specter. If you would identify the contents of the statement by the exhibit number which we have put on it, starting with the first numerical designation, would probably be the simplest. Exhibit 6 is what?
Mr.Price. Exhibit No. 6 is a Xerox copy of the floor plan of the emergency area. This is correct.
The Exhibit No. 7, the statement is unsigned, but this is the Xerox copy of the summary submitted to me by my assistant, Mr. Steve Landregan.
Mr.Specter. And what is his position with the hospital?
Mr.Price. He is assistant administrator.
Mr.Specter. In charge of press relations among other things?
Mr.Price. In charge of press relations among other things.
Mr.Specter. And what is Exhibit No. 8?
Mr.Price. Exhibit No. 8 is a Xerox copy of Peter Geilich's statement to me. Mr. Geilich is administrative assistant, with primary assignment over at the Woodlawn unit, and he is also the acting director of our outpatient clinic.
Mr.Specter. And what is Exhibit No. 9?